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All right, everybody. We've got an
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incredible guest today. Governor Josh
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Shapiro is here. Obviously, Governor of
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Pennsylvania. He's got uh record set
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setting popularity in Pennsylvania right
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now. 60% approval at least. He's a
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moderate. Uh he's focused on getting
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done, GSD. He's tough on crime. Ranked
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number one according to my notes on
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charging Medicaid fraud. He's pro data
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center. He's got a nuance take on
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Israel. And he's a baller apparently.
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Cut to the tape.
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>> Got him.
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>> There he is.
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>> Oh my god.
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>> Here's your governor.
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>> Look at those short shorts. Holy cow.
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>> Incredible. Wow. It's the late '8s.
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>> And based on the VHS tape, this looks
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like the 80s.
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>> Yeah, that was 1990, I think.
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>> Look at that. Playing the point.
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>> There you go.
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>> Very nice. Very nice. All right.
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>> That was back when people shot mid-range
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jumpers. They don't do that anymore,
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man. They don't do that. They should.
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>> All threes. Yeah. I mean, we have a
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couple of players and and we were
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talking before the show started. You're
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obviously a big Philly fan. I'm a big
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Nick fan. So, I will see you at the
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games. We're We're on a collision
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course.
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>> By the way, with all due respect, and I
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hope we have a good conversation here. I
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hope to never see you at the games
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because if you're showing up in Philly
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with all your Knicks crap on, I'm not
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going to be a happy guy. Oh, look at a
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selfie courtside with my friend uh Dave
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who is one of the co-owners of the team
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who's a mutual friend of ours um who I
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think egg you on a little bit to come on
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the program here.
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>> He did which I appreciate.
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>> He said go on all in. They have
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thoughtful conversations and anxious to
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have on with you. So thanks for having
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me.
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>> Yeah. There's so much for us to talk
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about but I I thought I would start with
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your track record in Pennsylvania. And
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the reason I wanted to start there is
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because there's a bit of a collision
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course happening right now between you
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and Gavin. Gavin's got what I would
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describe as a variable um tenure here in
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California. Um I left California for
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Texas because I just thought it was a
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bit of a disaster, but you're doing
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great in your state. And that's in the
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face of New York, my hometown, New
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Jersey, Boston, like losing a lot of
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business leaders. Uh and you've been
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scoring, you know, some big wins. So
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when you look at your track record,
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maybe you could just educate the
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audience on what you've gotten done and
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maybe in comparison to what's happening
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in those other states uh with other
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Democratic leaders because you seem to
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be maybe the exception to this rule that
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Democrats aren't getting it done on a
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business level.
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>> Well, look, I'm proud of what we've
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done. I'm not in comparison with Gavin
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or any other Democratic governor. I'll
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just talk about what we've done here in
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Pennsylvania. We are a progrowth state.
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We want businesses to come here and
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grow. I'm proud of the fact that we've
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created more jobs in all but two states
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in the entire country. We've cut taxes
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seven different times to be more
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competitive. Cut taxes for small
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businesses. Also for families trying to
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afford child care for seniors, for
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working Pennsylvania. Um we've taken our
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permitting process. That's the the
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usually the the ticket you need say to
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build your building, right? If you're
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trying to build something here in
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Pennsylvania, we were bottom five in the
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country. I think we're now a national
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model, easily top five in terms of
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speed. We've got a money back guarantee
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on all of our permits. If we don't get
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you your permit in time, we'll give you
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your money back. And fun fact, we've
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issued 40 million permits during my time
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as governor. We've only had to issue
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five refunds, meaning only five of those
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permits were late. Um, we are now the
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only growing economy in the northeastern
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part of the United States. At the same
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time, we're investing in workforce
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development, especially if you don't
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have a college degree, tripling funding
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for VOTE and apprenticeship programs and
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understanding the need to take the
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workforce we have today and prepare them
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for um jobs here in the Commonwealth of
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Pennsylvania. I'm proud that we've got
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an unemployment rate below the national
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rate consistently over the last 32
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months. I think it is really critical
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that every kid born in Pennsylvania gets
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a great quality education, that that kid
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has a safe street to walk down to get to
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school or wherever else they're going,
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and that they've got a job in the
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community that they love. Those to me
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are the core foundational principles.
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It's what we focus on every single day.
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Our mantra, as you said at the top, is
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GSD, get done. Those are the areas where
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we focus on getting done. And I think
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we're putting a lot of points on the
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board every single day that's having a
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meaningful difference in people's lives.
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>> How are you getting that done? Just take
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the permitting as an example. Why is it
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so dysfunctional in California? You
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know, obviously I'm an investor in
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technology companies and we just saw red
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tape after red tape. Then on housing,
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it's incredibly hard to build anything.
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The nimiism, you know, if you cast a
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shadow, nothing can be built. And then
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housing prices keep going up. And you
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know, if you want to hire a nanny or a
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teacher uh or you know, if a firefighter
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moves in, they can't even afford a home
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in the community that they're servicing.
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So, how did you fix this?
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>> And why can't other states not fix it?
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>> I mean, look, I I can't speak to how
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it's done in California. I'll just tell
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you in Pennsylvania, the way we start
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the conversation is by recognizing
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permits are critically important to
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economic development and to creating
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jobs. Right? If we the government can
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move at the speed of business, if I can
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give you as a CEO predictability to know
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your business is going to be open in six
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months instead of three years, right?
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Because the permit took too long, then
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you're going to want to invest here. So,
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we sort of start with the important idea
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that permits matter. Second, when you
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come into our state government to get
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your permit, let's just use building a
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building as an example, right? We want
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to get to yes. We still want to protect
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the environment and public health and
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public safety and we do that, but we
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want to get to yes. So, our attitude has
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shifted. Third, we've got to have that
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money back guarantee because that money
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back guarantee holds the bureaucracy
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accountable. Now, I will tell you that
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some of this we've done
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administratively, meaning I've signed
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executive orders and we've made those
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changes. But on other things, we've
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worked with the legislature to pass new
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laws to speed up our permitting. And it
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hasn't always been easy. understand I'm
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a Democrat as a governor. I've got a
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divided legislature. I was the only
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governor for a while with a divided
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legislature. Now there's one other. I've
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got a Senate led by Republicans by just
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two seats and a House led by Democrats
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by just one seat. But this is an area
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where I've been able to bring Democrats
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and Republicans together in order to
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make progress in terms of passing this
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um this permitting reform. And again,
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proof is in the pudding. What we are
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seeing is that businesses are coming
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here and the economy is growing. Let me
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give you one more example. This may seem
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really small to you, but it's a big
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deal. Okay. When I talk about a permit,
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if you want to be a barber in
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Pennsylvania, you need a permit or
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technically it's called a license, but I
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put it all in your
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>> some kind of certificate. Yeah.
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>> Right. The day I took office, it took 20
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days for a barber to get their permit to
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be able to go out and cut hair. Today,
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you get it same day. you get it within
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that day. That may seem silly to you,
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but but it but but understand I called
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my barber. I asked him, I said, "How
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many heads do you cut a day?" He said,
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"About 10 a day at 20 bucks a pop. 200
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bucks a day for two for 20 days." That's
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real money. That's thousands of dollars
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that we're putting into that barber's
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pocket just because we got them their
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permit more quickly. So, I know it may
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sound nerdy. It may sound wonky, but
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whether you're building some big
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building that's going to house hundreds
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of workers or thousands of people who
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are living there, or whether you're the
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local barber that everybody needs to go
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to to get to get their haircut, this
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stuff matters. And the quicker you are,
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the more jobs you create and the more
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money you put in people's pockets. It
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also matters I think on a philosophical
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basis of who is the government working
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for themselves and their timelines or
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for the people who put them in office.
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And I think that's the philosophy just
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at least watching it happen in New York
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and California is the opposite of what
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you described. There's no sense of
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urgency and there's almost a situation
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where people believe it's intractable
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that they can't change it. And so that's
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I think such an important point is that
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you actually made it happen. I think
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that's a great point. I I want to focus
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on what you just said there. Um first
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off, I I start the conversation
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believing that government can be a force
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for good in people's lives. Second, that
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we got to figure out a way to get to
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yes, whether it's building a building or
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whether it's getting that mom the
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support she needs for her kid with
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autism who needs support. We got to
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figure out a way to get to yes and get
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them um that help. Then you you
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mentioned uh in your question the way
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people get I I I don't recall if you use
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the word frustrated or or they feel you
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know um that that government's sort of
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holding them back right not sure
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>> it's oppressive in a way right just if
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you have that experience three or four
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times whether it's at the airport or
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getting your driver's license or getting
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the haircuting you know certificate like
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it's just oppressive over time you just
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feel like the government's working
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against you.
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>> Yeah. And what does that what does that
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person feel after they try and get their
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permit, they can't get it, they try and
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open up their small business, it won't
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work. They get frustrated by they get
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pissed. And then not only are they
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pissed at that agency or that governor
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or they're pissed at, you know, that
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state government, they also grow, and
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this is an important point, a little
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more cynical about government and a
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little bit more frustrated about the
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process. And when that happens, I think
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that that creates more distrust in our
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system. And it creates more opportunity
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for, I think, frankly, dark voices on
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extremes to come in and take advantage
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of people. I I I find that, you know, if
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we get it done the right way, if we
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process things quickly, if we get people
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to Yes. then maybe a byproduct of that
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is a little bit less cynicism in our
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system.
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>> Yeah. and the horseshoe theory that
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you're kind of referencing there. These
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two extremes just taking over the
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conversation, that's not what the
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majority of the country wants. They they
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want to just live in a high functioning
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society. It was curious how you look at
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fraud. Um waste, fraud, and abuse. my
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friend Elon to drop a name, you know,
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did this doge thing. It was a little
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controversial, but I think what we've
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seen is, hey, 20 30% of every tax dollar
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collected is wasted. Some of it's fraud,
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some of it's just incompetence. It could
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be anything on that spectrum. And this
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seems to be the Republican party's
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rallying cry to beat the Democrats going
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into California and prosecuting people,
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Michigan, etc. You have seem to have
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gotten ahead of this. You've been doing
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this for years. So maybe you could
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explain your take on fighting fraud,
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specifically healthcare or in other
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areas.
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>> Yeah, look, look, I think we've got to
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focus on rooting fraud out of the
00:11:02
system. Now, you and I may differ on,
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hey, should we spend a dollar on that
00:11:07
initiative or not? And by the way, those
00:11:09
are super healthy differences and we
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should argue that out. We should debate
00:11:12
that. But where we should have no
00:11:14
difference is if someone's stealing that
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dollar instead of going to its intended
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purpose, we should be against that. And
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and I am. Prior to serving as governor
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and having the privilege of sitting here
00:11:26
uh in this office serving the good
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people of Pennsylvania, I was the
00:11:29
state's attorney general. And you'll
00:11:31
remember back during COVID, there were
00:11:34
those PPP loans to help our small
00:11:36
businesses and other businesses stay
00:11:38
afloat. We'd probably agree like good
00:11:39
idea, right? We got to keep businesses
00:11:42
afloat. But during that time, I went out
00:11:44
and prosecuted a whole bunch of people
00:11:46
for stealing that PPP money, for not
00:11:48
using it for its intended purposes. Here
00:11:51
as governor, I've maintained a similar
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focus through my office of inspector
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general, rooting out fraud, through
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making sure, by the way, we're not
00:11:59
fronting you money when you're going out
00:12:01
and providing, say, human services. You
00:12:03
have to submit for reimbursements, and
00:12:05
you've got to make sure you prove that
00:12:07
you did that work. When we find that
00:12:09
someone took advantage of the system,
00:12:11
we're referring them to prosecutors. I'm
00:12:13
proud of the fact that we've had more
00:12:15
Medicaid fraud prosecutions in
00:12:17
Pennsylvania, I think any other state.
00:12:19
Maybe there was one other. We're we're
00:12:20
certainly toward the top of that list.
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Proud of the fact that we've identified
00:12:24
that. We've sent it to prosecutors and
00:12:26
and we've addressed it. If we can
00:12:28
address it administratively, we do. If
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not, we understand that those things
00:12:31
need to be prosecuted. We should have a
00:12:33
zero tolerance policy for that. We
00:12:35
should make sure that if we're going to
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utilize a hardearned dollar of a
00:12:40
taxpayer for a purpose like providing
00:12:42
someone with health care that they need,
00:12:45
we got to make sure that that dollar
00:12:46
makes its way to that person so they get
00:12:48
their healthcare. And you know, our
00:12:50
folks are working really hard on that in
00:12:51
Pennsylvania.
00:12:53
So pro business, uh, less regulation,
00:12:57
lowering taxes, eliminating fraud,
00:13:01
um, and all of this is just getting done
00:13:04
in the state. And then, you know, the
00:13:06
next piece that in at least my
00:13:08
community, people who are creators of
00:13:10
businesses, venture capitalists, angel
00:13:12
investors, founders, we pay our taxes,
00:13:16
pay a lot of taxes, uh, depending on
00:13:17
which state you live in. And then
00:13:19
there's this,
00:13:20
>> you should be paying more taxes in
00:13:21
Pennsylvania, man. stop paying them
00:13:23
elsewhere.
00:13:24
>> Yeah. Well, the and you know, we then
00:13:27
get struck with this California law and
00:13:30
uh a lot of my friends have moved to
00:13:31
Austin where I live now. They just said
00:13:33
suddenly, hey, we want to seize 5% of
00:13:35
whatever you got. Uh you already paid
00:13:37
your taxes. You haven't paid capital
00:13:38
gains on some of this equity you own in
00:13:41
your company. Maybe it's paper wealth.
00:13:42
Maybe it's your company went public now
00:13:44
and you could sell some of it, but you
00:13:45
might cradle the stock if you do. uh and
00:13:47
Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders and
00:13:51
California, all trying to seize assets.
00:13:54
And this has really hit the creator,
00:13:58
the business creators in a in a really
00:14:00
offensive way to the point at which
00:14:03
they're moving. We lost California lost
00:14:06
Sergey Travis from Uber just fleeing
00:14:10
fleeing on mass in the last 12 months.
00:14:13
Do you believe in these wealth taxes and
00:14:15
do you believe in seizing people's
00:14:17
assets on gains they've never uh
00:14:20
received? It's a it seems to be getting
00:14:22
momentum.
00:14:23
>> I mean, I'll just say we've cut taxes
00:14:25
seven times in Pennsylvania. We've got
00:14:27
one of the lowest income taxes in the
00:14:29
entire country. That's why I'm joking
00:14:31
with you. You should come to
00:14:32
Pennsylvania and locate here. Uh and and
00:14:35
look, I mean, that kind of tax that
00:14:37
you're describing is not something we
00:14:39
have here. It's certainly not something
00:14:42
on on my agenda. I do think people need
00:14:44
to pay their fair share. I think you'd
00:14:46
agree with that. We need to make sure
00:14:47
that we are easing the burden on those
00:14:50
who are working and who are at the
00:14:52
lowest, you know, sort of economic point
00:14:54
on the scale. And we got to make sure
00:14:55
that folks at the top are paying their
00:14:57
their fair share uh in order to to
00:15:00
sustain our society. And I think we've
00:15:02
struck a really good balance here in
00:15:04
Pennsylvania. And I think our growth
00:15:06
numbers bear that out. Uh I think seeing
00:15:09
more people coming to this state bears
00:15:11
that out and I think there's an
00:15:13
important stat. One of the things you
00:15:14
you cited in those um entrepreneurs as
00:15:17
as you were going through your question
00:15:19
is you know these are people who kind of
00:15:21
started with a dream with an idea that
00:15:24
you know someone might have looked at
00:15:25
and said geez I I don't know about that
00:15:27
but they stuck with it and and they
00:15:29
built up their companies. we see here in
00:15:32
Pennsylvania, particularly when it comes
00:15:34
to life sciences, right? We're seeing
00:15:36
people plant a flag here in
00:15:38
Pennsylvania. Start with an idea that
00:15:40
others might think, boy, I I don't know
00:15:42
about that. But then because of our tax
00:15:45
environment in Pennsylvania, because of
00:15:47
our progrowth approach in Pennsylvania,
00:15:49
we're seeing more of those small
00:15:51
businesses, more of those small
00:15:52
companies, especially in life sciences,
00:15:54
survive that sort of valley where a lot
00:15:57
of those companies go out of business
00:15:59
and sustain themselves here because
00:16:01
again, I think we're showing that we're
00:16:03
progrowth. We've got a smart tax
00:16:05
environment for them. And by the way,
00:16:08
after we invest in them, after we give
00:16:09
them a shot, and after they do well, we
00:16:11
expect them to pay their fair share back
00:16:13
to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. And
00:16:15
I think that's that's the approach we've
00:16:17
taken, and it's working.
00:16:18
>> Yeah. And so, if you're not in favor of
00:16:20
a wealth tax, what would you do to deal
00:16:24
with maybe this disparity in uh wealth
00:16:27
that we're seeing? There was just some
00:16:29
>> statistics that came out the other day.
00:16:31
I'm sure you saw them. The upper middle
00:16:33
class has just been surging. middle
00:16:35
class going down a bit and people in the
00:16:38
lower rungs going down as well. So
00:16:41
people may feel like they're not making
00:16:42
enough money but in reality what's
00:16:45
happening is people feel other people
00:16:47
have made a tremendous amount of money
00:16:48
which is true because of equity holdings
00:16:51
are growing much better than salaries
00:16:53
ever will and only 40% only 50% of the
00:16:56
country really participates in a
00:16:58
meaningful way in equities. The other 40
00:17:00
50% don't have any exposure to that. So,
00:17:04
how would you deal with somebody making,
00:17:07
you know, a hundred billion dollars,
00:17:08
$500 billion, a trillion dollars? Yeah.
00:17:11
And never selling their equity or maybe
00:17:13
not selling it for 20 years. How do you
00:17:15
think about that?
00:17:15
>> Let me make sort of three points, a
00:17:17
Pennsylvania point, and a couple broader
00:17:18
points. One, you cannot have a national
00:17:22
economy that works if it's only working
00:17:24
for the 1%. And you pointed out in your
00:17:27
question, the wage disparity and the
00:17:29
disparity of income. You have to make
00:17:31
sure that there is opportunity for those
00:17:34
at all different income levels. And
00:17:36
look, as we sit here today, if you're
00:17:38
making a million versus $50,000, take a
00:17:41
million, you're going to be able to buy
00:17:42
some stuff that someone at $50,000 can't
00:17:45
buy, right? We sort of understand that.
00:17:48
But you got to have opportunity and
00:17:50
you've got to have a level playing field
00:17:51
and you got to have a fair shot and you
00:17:53
got to have a tax system that works in a
00:17:56
fair way. So that's sort of point one.
00:17:58
Point two is here in Pennsylvania, we've
00:18:00
tried to address some of that economic
00:18:02
disparity by passing the first ever
00:18:06
working Pennians's tax credit. Sort of a
00:18:08
stateide earned income tax credit. So
00:18:11
what we're saying is if you're working,
00:18:12
if you're going out and busting your
00:18:14
home, we're going to put some money back
00:18:15
in your pocket. About 940,000, almost a
00:18:18
million Pennians are going to qualify
00:18:20
for a little over 800 bucks back in
00:18:23
their pockets. So that's going to help
00:18:24
not only today with rising cost due to a
00:18:27
lot of these federal policies, but it's
00:18:29
going to put money back in people's
00:18:30
pockets, allow them to make, you know,
00:18:32
the the the investments they need to
00:18:34
make in their everyday lives. Here's the
00:18:36
third point. What I would not do,
00:18:38
because you asked what I would do, what
00:18:39
I would not do is what President Trump
00:18:42
did at the federal level with an aid and
00:18:45
assist from a whole bunch of sick and
00:18:46
fancy in Congress by passing that budget
00:18:49
bill or the beautiful budget bill or
00:18:51
whatever the hell they call it. In
00:18:53
effect, what they did was they gave a
00:18:55
tax cut for those who simply do not need
00:18:58
it. Right? And by the way, you know, in
00:19:01
the Palace of Truth and Justice, you
00:19:02
talk to those folks, they know that they
00:19:04
didn't need that tax cut. And what
00:19:07
happens as a result of that is I've got
00:19:10
500,000
00:19:12
Pennians who are going to lose their
00:19:15
health care. I've got 120,000 who have
00:19:18
already lost their healthcare. another
00:19:20
320,000
00:19:22
or so. We're likely to lose Medicaid
00:19:24
next year. I've got 26 rural hospitals
00:19:27
that are likely to shutter because these
00:19:30
are rural hospitals that are working at
00:19:31
an operating deficit and they're relying
00:19:34
so much on Medicaid, which has been
00:19:36
slashed by the federal government. So
00:19:38
the idea that Donald Trump thought it
00:19:39
was smart economic policy to give a tax
00:19:42
cut to those who don't need it and pay
00:19:44
for it with those who were struggling
00:19:46
where and create even greater economic
00:19:49
disparities that is going to hold back
00:19:51
our entire economy. Just take those
00:19:53
500,000 people who aren't going to have
00:19:55
healthcare. You're paying for that and
00:19:57
I'm paying for that with our private
00:19:59
insurance. So what Donald Trump has done
00:20:01
is shifted that burden onto those who
00:20:04
are struggling, making it harder for
00:20:07
them, adding additional cost to the
00:20:09
middle class. And I think that that is
00:20:12
that that lacks um frankly it's just
00:20:14
dumb economic policy. I think it's going
00:20:17
to set us back.
00:20:18
>> Here we are. Politics is on the table.
00:20:20
Incredible track record you have. But
00:20:21
let's dive into the Democratic party. Uh
00:20:23
I'm an independent but grew up Irish
00:20:26
Catholic in Brooklyn. So grew up a
00:20:28
Democrat. probably have voted, you know,
00:20:30
6040 Democrat to Republican, but always
00:20:33
for a moderate, somebody who can get
00:20:34
stuff done. That's why I find you quite
00:20:36
appealing. But let's talk about the
00:20:38
Democratic party and the shellacking
00:20:40
they got in the last election. And
00:20:43
specifically, what really troubled me,
00:20:47
Biden didn't look like he was all there,
00:20:49
and uh I think we've all come to some
00:20:51
consensus that he probably should have
00:20:52
dropped out earlier. But what was really
00:20:54
disheartening to me was that they didn't
00:20:56
do the speedrun primary. they didn't do,
00:20:59
you know, a capsule primary over that
00:21:02
July August period and gave you a shot
00:21:04
and other people a shot, Pritsker,
00:21:06
Buddhajudge, whoever to to compete for
00:21:09
the nomination. Was that a huge mistake
00:21:12
for the Democratic party? And and when
00:21:14
you look back on it, do you think that
00:21:16
might have cost you all the election?
00:21:17
Well, look, I mean, I I actually wrote
00:21:19
about this in in the book I I recently
00:21:21
published where, you know, it it became
00:21:24
clear to me that um you know, Joe Biden
00:21:27
seeking another term was probably not in
00:21:29
the best interest of the party or or the
00:21:31
country. And I spoke to him directly
00:21:33
about that and and bluntly about that.
00:21:35
Once he made the decision to drop out
00:21:37
withund and whatever days to go, um you
00:21:40
know, there there were not many
00:21:42
opportunities, I think, to have the kind
00:21:44
of primary process that you're talking
00:21:46
about. I think it is important to look
00:21:48
forward, right, and not look backwards.
00:21:50
And you said in the last election,
00:21:52
Democrats took a shellacking. Actually,
00:21:53
you look at 2025, it was the opposite. I
00:21:56
mean, the president's party, the
00:21:57
Republican party got beat New Jersey,
00:21:59
got beat in Virginia, got beat here in
00:22:01
Pennsylvania, where we won three state
00:22:03
supreme court seats. So, obviously,
00:22:05
there's a pendulum in in American
00:22:08
politics, and it's clearly uh swinging
00:22:11
back. I think what's important is is
00:22:13
that we look forward and you I think
00:22:15
it's also really important for our party
00:22:17
to have for my party to have a real
00:22:19
debate and to have a real discussion
00:22:21
about ideas. What are we for and what
00:22:23
are we willing to fight for? And I
00:22:26
realize that process may at times look a
00:22:28
little messy. I realize and I mean this
00:22:29
with the utmost respect. It gives folks
00:22:31
like you on a podcast or on a show the
00:22:33
ability to sort of pick apart, maybe try
00:22:36
and, you know, sort of parse words or
00:22:38
point one Democrat at another and try
00:22:40
and create conflict. But I would just
00:22:42
say that overall having this debate and
00:22:45
having these issues be raised and having
00:22:48
disagreements, that's healthy for our
00:22:50
party and ultimately I think our party's
00:22:52
poised to take back power and that will
00:22:54
make us better at governing. To me, the
00:22:56
whole purpose of running in an election
00:22:58
is getting a chance to govern, not just
00:23:00
winning the election. And so, having
00:23:02
these debates right now puts us in a
00:23:04
better position when we win those
00:23:06
elections. And I'm running for
00:23:07
re-election right now in Pennsylvania.
00:23:09
Going to work my ass off to win another
00:23:11
term and earn the support of the people
00:23:13
of Pennsylvania again. And I want to
00:23:14
continue to deliver, continue to um, you
00:23:17
know, focus on these issues that matter
00:23:18
most. And having that debate, I think,
00:23:20
is really healthy.
00:23:21
>> Understand looking forward is most
00:23:23
important. But I got I got to go one
00:23:25
more time in the review mirror here,
00:23:26
which is Kla Harris was picked because
00:23:30
Biden had put out a criteria. Hey, I
00:23:32
want to have a woman of color as my vice
00:23:33
president. He was very explicit about
00:23:35
that. She could be qualified,
00:23:37
unqualified, you know, moderately
00:23:39
qualified. But then when she went out to
00:23:41
pick her VP, everybody was saying, "Hey,
00:23:44
Josh Shapiro should be really in that
00:23:46
running." And she didn't pick you
00:23:47
specifically because she didn't think
00:23:48
she could win with the Jewish vice
00:23:50
president.
00:23:51
>> Yeah. So I don't respectfully I I got to
00:23:54
push back on that and again I I've been
00:23:55
very very open about
00:23:56
>> push back on it. Yeah.
00:23:58
>> Yeah. And and respectfully, I'm not
00:23:59
looking to, you know, be argumentative
00:24:00
with you, but I I
00:24:03
>> was very very detailed and and and very
00:24:06
specific in my book about this process.
00:24:09
And I was very grateful to the vice
00:24:11
president for being considered and
00:24:13
grateful to her for the candid dialogue
00:24:15
we had. And about 48 hours before she
00:24:18
picked Tim Walls, I pulled out, made
00:24:19
clear that that was not something I was
00:24:22
interested in doing. I thought I could
00:24:24
serve the good people of Pennsylvania um
00:24:26
and and do my best serving here as
00:24:28
governor in a job that I absolutely
00:24:30
love. So, this wasn't about her not
00:24:32
picking me because of my faith. Uh this
00:24:35
was about me um in the end not being
00:24:37
interested in in that job.
00:24:39
>> Really?
00:24:40
>> Sincerely, yes. Uh because it did seem
00:24:42
like you wanted to to be considered for
00:24:44
that VP position. I called Sunday
00:24:47
evening after she and I met and had a
00:24:49
really candid conversation uh to inform
00:24:51
her that I did not want to be
00:24:53
considered. I thought she had some
00:24:54
really good people to choose from.
00:24:56
>> All right, so let's move forward then
00:24:57
looking at winning. You're going to run
00:24:59
for governor again. Assume that's going
00:25:01
to be a shoe in. You know, you got to do
00:25:03
the work, but it's pretty clear you're
00:25:06
confidence there, my man.
00:25:08
>> No, it's it's clear. But let's talk a
00:25:10
little bit about if you were to run for
00:25:12
president, which people seem to think
00:25:14
you've got a really good shot, but
00:25:16
you're below maybe national uh
00:25:20
recognition right now. We're a little
00:25:22
bit far behind. Gavin has come out. Hey,
00:25:24
I'm running. I'm running. Here I am.
00:25:26
He's obviously uh in the poll position
00:25:28
for now. I want to understand the
00:25:30
Democratic party and how they should
00:25:32
proceed because just like the right
00:25:35
seemed to separate and you had this MAGA
00:25:37
coalition uh and you had you know the
00:25:40
traditional Republicans who were just a
00:25:42
gasast at Trump and his style and his
00:25:44
behavior etc. Now that seems to have
00:25:47
fractured again. You have America first,
00:25:50
America only. All the supporters who
00:25:53
were supporting Trump now have come out
00:25:56
vocally against him because of the war
00:25:58
in Iran. And then you have on your side
00:26:00
this socialist democrat movement which I
00:26:02
think a lot of moderates are like well
00:26:04
that's confusing. We don't want to have
00:26:07
more mandamis and that doesn't seem
00:26:09
super appealing to a lot of moderates
00:26:11
and the moderates are the ones who
00:26:12
flipped this election and they went the
00:26:14
last election they went with Trump
00:26:16
largely as opposed to going with Kamala.
00:26:18
handicap for me. What has to happen in
00:26:22
the Democratic party to win in 2028?
00:26:24
>> I understand why you're asking that. I I
00:26:26
will answer your question. I don't think
00:26:28
anyone should be looking past these
00:26:30
midterms. And while I appreciate the
00:26:33
confidence you you have in me and and
00:26:35
maybe in the the broader dynamics here,
00:26:37
I think we need to have a national
00:26:39
referendum in these midterms on what
00:26:42
people see happening in Washington DC.
00:26:44
the the chaos and the corruption that
00:26:47
exists there. I think people need to
00:26:48
show up in record numbers and vote their
00:26:51
concerns. And so I'm not looking past
00:26:53
the midterms. I do think it is important
00:26:56
that we acknowledge Donald Trump has
00:26:59
injected chaos and corruption into
00:27:03
everything he touched. And I think it's
00:27:05
important for me, for other democratic
00:27:09
leaders in this country to be able to
00:27:11
show what calm, competent governance can
00:27:15
actually deliver for people. That's what
00:27:17
I'm going to be talking about in these
00:27:18
midterms as I seek reelection. I think
00:27:21
it is important to paint an alternative
00:27:23
picture to the chaos Donald Trump has
00:27:26
created. One where you can actually grow
00:27:28
the economy. You can make our
00:27:29
communities safer. We didn't talk about
00:27:31
this yet, but we've hired 2,000 more
00:27:33
police officers. invested in community
00:27:36
violence prevention and violent crime is
00:27:38
down 12%. Fatal gun violence is down 42%
00:27:41
in our commonwealth. Um we've invested
00:27:43
in public education and by the way
00:27:46
scores are up. Truency is down. Um we're
00:27:49
moving up on the list. We're about 10th
00:27:52
um according to consumer affairs in the
00:27:53
quality of public education. I think
00:27:55
we've got to show that there is an
00:27:57
alternative to Donald Trump's chaos, to
00:28:00
his cruelty, to his corruption. And
00:28:02
you're seeing that um I think certainly
00:28:05
in my state and I think you're seeing it
00:28:06
in other states as well. And we need to
00:28:08
paint that alternative picture.
00:28:10
>> So TW 26 is certainly going to be a
00:28:12
referendum on the first two years of
00:28:14
this presidency which was extremely
00:28:17
popular for the first n months or so.
00:28:20
People felt really good about the
00:28:21
economy. some people
00:28:22
>> and that well I think the his polling
00:28:26
was great but there was this tinge I
00:28:28
think is pretty accurate to say the
00:28:30
tariffs felt like those were chaotic.
00:28:33
>> Yeah.
00:28:33
>> Then you get the ice situation that
00:28:35
feels very chaotic. Then you go to this
00:28:38
war with Iran and that feels like a peak
00:28:40
chaotic moment that we're in here in
00:28:42
week six of this. So, it's certainly
00:28:44
going to be a referendum on Trump and it
00:28:46
feels like all the Democrats have to do
00:28:48
is sit back and say like,
00:28:50
>> look, is this what you want? Gas prices
00:28:53
up, inflation, but you're saying they
00:28:55
have to paint another picture. Paint
00:28:56
that picture for me. What is that
00:28:58
picture?
00:28:58
>> I think on both sides of what you just
00:29:00
said, Donald Trump chose to push the
00:29:03
tariff button. Right. Yeah. And as a
00:29:06
result here in Pennsylvania, what we're
00:29:07
seeing is coffee prices are up 30%, beef
00:29:11
is up 19%. OJ orange juice is up 9%. The
00:29:15
fertilizers my farmers rely on here in
00:29:17
Pennsylvania up 36%.
00:29:20
So we're seeing whether you're a farmer,
00:29:22
whether you're, you know, a dad just
00:29:24
trying to cook dinner for his kids,
00:29:25
whatever the case may be, everything
00:29:28
costs more because of the the
00:29:30
recklessness and the chaotic approach
00:29:32
Donald Trump's taking our economy with
00:29:34
these tariffs. Obviously, this war has
00:29:36
spiked gas prices up today about 415,
00:29:40
416 here in Pennsylvania, similar across
00:29:43
the country, probably years before those
00:29:46
gas prices come down, even if the war,
00:29:49
you know, hopefully. ends, you know,
00:29:51
very very soon. And so I think it is
00:29:53
important, yes, to point that out. The
00:29:56
way Donald Trump's policies have hurt
00:29:58
the American people, have hurt our
00:30:00
farmers, have hurt our small businesses.
00:30:03
The point I was making a moment ago is I
00:30:05
think that's part of the conversation.
00:30:07
The other part of the conversation is,
00:30:08
okay, well, what are you doing to make
00:30:10
people's lives better?
00:30:11
>> Yeah. What? So what what should the top
00:30:12
three things be? Like if you were
00:30:14
running the Democratic party and you and
00:30:16
everybody got in a room and said, "You
00:30:16
know what? We really are going to take
00:30:18
winning seriously, not get into this
00:30:21
like purity test for everybody in the
00:30:23
party and you know, everybody's got to
00:30:26
be perfect and Joe Rogan's not good
00:30:28
enough to go on air with because he's a
00:30:31
lifelong Democrat, but he said something
00:30:33
about co we don't agree with. Therefore,
00:30:34
he's out of the party." Elon Musk is a
00:30:37
little bit weird on the Well, but but
00:30:39
the Democrats did. And then, oh, Elon
00:30:40
Musk waited hours to and had Obama at
00:30:43
SpaceX and then all of a sudden he can't
00:30:45
come to the White House for the EV
00:30:46
summit, the category he created. Like,
00:30:48
it's pretty obvious the Democratic party
00:30:50
had some real dysfunction in there in
00:30:53
terms of building a bigger tent. And I
00:30:55
can tell you, I have never felt more
00:30:58
corded in my life than the Republican
00:31:01
party trying to get me to be part of the
00:31:04
the Trump movement, which I demured and
00:31:07
declined. It wasn't my style, right? Uh
00:31:09
but they are trying to build the biggest
00:31:11
10 possible. They're like, "Oh, you
00:31:13
agree with 14% of what we do. You're in
00:31:16
like
00:31:16
>> Okay.
00:31:17
>> Yeah. So, walk me through. So, let's
00:31:19
dissect the top things." Yeah.
00:31:20
>> Let's dissect. First off, you attribute
00:31:22
a number of things to Democrats that I
00:31:24
didn't say. So, um we're you're here
00:31:26
interviewing me, so let's focus on the
00:31:28
things I say. Number two, um they went
00:31:31
and they courted you uh and you
00:31:33
demurred. By the way, um even had you
00:31:36
not demurred, had you signed up, I don't
00:31:37
know that your life would be better off
00:31:39
after a year and a half of Trump's
00:31:41
policies. What I am for here in
00:31:43
Pennsylvania, the ultimate swing state,
00:31:46
the toughest state to win in, an
00:31:48
incredibly tough state to govern in,
00:31:50
particularly with a divided legislature.
00:31:53
I'm for investing in public education,
00:31:55
giving every child of God an
00:31:56
opportunity. I'm for safe communities,
00:31:59
and we're building that here, and we're
00:32:01
reducing crime in all of our
00:32:03
communities. I'm for a progrowth economy
00:32:05
where we generate more energy, we
00:32:08
generate more jobs, where we create more
00:32:10
opportunities, particularly in our rural
00:32:12
communities and forgotten communities
00:32:13
that have been too often left behind.
00:32:15
And here's the fourth thing I'm for. I
00:32:17
am for freedom. And I'll tell you what,
00:32:20
this president represents a party that
00:32:22
used to be known as the party of
00:32:24
freedom. And now they have turned their
00:32:26
backs on that. They want to tell my kids
00:32:28
what books they're allowed to read. They
00:32:30
want to tell women what medicines they
00:32:32
can take and what they can do with their
00:32:34
bodies. They want to control the way I
00:32:37
raise my child. They want to say uh, you
00:32:40
know, every day that yeah, you can vote,
00:32:43
but we're going to set the rules and try
00:32:44
and rig them in a way where you're not
00:32:46
going to be successful. They are not the
00:32:48
party of freedom. And I think the
00:32:50
Democratic Party has an opportunity to
00:32:52
be the party of education, safety,
00:32:54
economic opportunity, and freedom.
00:32:56
That's what we're doing here in
00:32:58
Pennsylvania. And that's what I'm gonna
00:32:59
continue to put forth.
00:33:01
>> I think it's a great platform. I would
00:33:02
add to it, housing. The thing I hear
00:33:05
about from young people all the time is,
00:33:06
you know, just I'll never be able to
00:33:08
afford a house. The American dreams a
00:33:10
bit of a scam and college is overpriced.
00:33:13
>> So, how do you think about housing and
00:33:15
and what do is that an issue in your
00:33:18
state or
00:33:19
>> Let's talk about housing. Let's also
00:33:20
talk about college because you raised
00:33:21
both of them in your question. I mean,
00:33:24
that has disinfected, by the way, just
00:33:26
like two generations who are like, "You
00:33:28
guys tricked us on housing. You told us
00:33:30
to be able to get home and you won't
00:33:32
sell your home boomers." Uh, and and you
00:33:35
told us we could always make more than
00:33:36
our college education cost. And that was
00:33:38
a lie, too.
00:33:38
>> Yeah. When I was talking about economic
00:33:40
opportunity, it's somewhat shorthand, if
00:33:43
you will, for also being able to afford
00:33:45
that community. Uh, affording that
00:33:47
community can be healthcare. It can be
00:33:48
housing, right? But let's talk about
00:33:50
housing. Here in Pennsylvania, I've
00:33:52
asked the legislature for a $1 billion
00:33:54
fund to be able to build more housing in
00:33:57
Pennsylvania and repair existing
00:33:59
housing. 50% of my housing was built
00:34:02
prior to 1950. You can invest a few
00:34:05
thousand bucks in a new boiler, a new
00:34:07
roof, some new windows, actually keep
00:34:09
people in their homes and not have to
00:34:10
build new homes. We also have to
00:34:13
eliminate or damn near eliminate the red
00:34:16
tape that exists when it comes to
00:34:18
building housing. We got to be able to
00:34:20
build this faster. And so I put forth a
00:34:22
regulatory reform plan to be able to
00:34:24
build more housing. I think that is um
00:34:28
really really crucial. Let's talk about
00:34:29
college for a minute. The first day I
00:34:32
was governor, the first executive order
00:34:34
I signed was to do away with the college
00:34:37
degree requirement to work for state
00:34:39
government. We have 80,000 employees.
00:34:42
Damn near all. Now you do not have to
00:34:44
have a college degree other than say the
00:34:46
doctors and lawyers and people like that
00:34:48
who require advanced degrees. So now 60%
00:34:51
60%
00:34:53
of all of our hires in state government
00:34:55
don't have a college degree. We followed
00:34:57
up on that by tripling our funding for
00:35:00
votech and CTE in our high schools. Our
00:35:03
you know dramatically increasing our
00:35:05
funding for apprenticeship programs. 62%
00:35:08
of my adult population here in
00:35:10
Pennsylvania do not have a college
00:35:12
degree. So, we need to make sure we're
00:35:14
investing in them so that they have
00:35:16
opportunities. You want to go learn to
00:35:18
be a welder, you're going to make six
00:35:19
figures working in a shipyard in South
00:35:22
Philadelphia. You want to go and you
00:35:24
want to work on HVAC system, you're
00:35:26
going to work in some of our most
00:35:29
complex life sciences um construction
00:35:32
jobs and you're going to make six
00:35:33
figures doing that. So for us, we
00:35:36
fundamentally believe that you've got
00:35:38
many pathways to opportunity here in
00:35:41
Pennsylvania. For some, it's going to
00:35:42
college, great. And for others, if you
00:35:45
choose not to go to college, that's also
00:35:47
great. We're going to make sure that we
00:35:48
pave the way for you and give you that
00:35:50
opportunity.
00:35:51
>> Yeah. The generation two belt movement
00:35:52
is um well upon us. People are starting
00:35:55
to figure out going in debt 100 or 200k
00:35:58
versus getting a plumber job, carpenter
00:36:00
job, HVAC, whatever for six figures out
00:36:03
of the gate is a much better
00:36:05
opportunity.
00:36:05
>> Yeah. And to be clear, I'm not on people
00:36:07
that go to college. I went to college. I
00:36:09
presume you went to go to college. But
00:36:11
for too long, by the way, politicians in
00:36:14
both parties define success exclusively
00:36:19
around the idea of you having to have a
00:36:20
college degree and then set up arbitrary
00:36:23
barriers to entry. Hey, if you don't
00:36:25
have a college degree, you can't apply
00:36:26
here. What about the skills that you
00:36:28
developed in the military? What about
00:36:29
the skills you developed at a trade
00:36:31
school or the skills that you developed
00:36:33
working in the private sector? Those
00:36:35
skills should matter. And now they do in
00:36:37
Pennsylvania. And we're no longer taking
00:36:39
an elitist approach that shuts people
00:36:42
out just because they don't have a
00:36:44
college degree. We're giving them the
00:36:46
keys to opportunity. And we're giving
00:36:48
them opportunities to pursue more
00:36:50
success here in Pennsylvania.
00:36:52
>> Does the socialist democratic movement
00:36:55
worry you Mandami and the crew? And how
00:37:00
do you think about that in terms of the
00:37:01
party dynamics? I mean, remember the
00:37:03
question you asked me, I three or four
00:37:05
questions ago about you said, "Well,
00:37:07
yeah, I only agree with 14% of what you
00:37:09
agree with, you know, come join the
00:37:11
party." Look, my view is that we got to
00:37:13
have a big tent. And my view is that
00:37:15
we've got to have a real debate around
00:37:17
different ideas. And just because I
00:37:19
might not agree with you on these three
00:37:21
things, I might agree with you on
00:37:22
something else. Listen, I'm sitting
00:37:24
behind my desk here in the governor's
00:37:26
office. This is where I negotiate bills
00:37:28
and budgets and other things. If I threw
00:37:30
everybody out of my office that I didn't
00:37:32
agree with 100% of the time, we'd never
00:37:35
get anything done. When I sit down
00:37:36
across the table from a Republican
00:37:38
lawmaker, say, 'What are the 10 things
00:37:40
you want to accomplish? I tell him the
00:37:42
10 things I want to accomplish. And you
00:37:44
know what? We're not going to agree on
00:37:44
all 10, but if we agree on three or
00:37:46
four, I'd rather focus on those three or
00:37:48
four things where we can find common
00:37:50
ground than the five, six, seven things
00:37:52
where we're just going to disagree. And
00:37:54
so I think if you want to make progress,
00:37:56
you got to figure out how to create, you
00:37:58
know, majorities. Whether it's a
00:38:00
majority in the legislature to get a
00:38:01
bill to my desk, a majority come
00:38:03
election time to win an election. You
00:38:06
got to find ways to bring people
00:38:07
together and find common ground and not
00:38:09
just focus exclusively on our
00:38:11
differences.
00:38:12
>> What's your take on what's going on in
00:38:14
Congress, Senate, in terms of Trump and
00:38:17
getting alignment there? because hey
00:38:19
when you go to war or you do tariffs um
00:38:22
this was something we had a consultation
00:38:24
between these different branches of our
00:38:26
government and we had other presidents
00:38:29
on the Democrat side etc you know say
00:38:31
hey we're going to just get rid of
00:38:32
student loan I'm doing an executive
00:38:33
order curious your take on the balance
00:38:36
of our of our different branches of
00:38:38
government
00:38:39
>> and the lack of collaboration because
00:38:42
this is particularly disturbing we're
00:38:43
both Gen Xers we grew up watching the
00:38:45
Democrats and the Republicans argue but
00:38:48
then They all got together, had lunch,
00:38:50
and they negotiated. Where is that
00:38:52
aspree to corpse of everybody rowing in
00:38:54
the same direction uh for all Americans
00:38:57
versus this toxic, you know, we're just
00:39:01
going to block each other at and do
00:39:03
character assassination at every single
00:39:06
turn. It's it's the most polarized of
00:39:08
our lifetimes for sure. I actually think
00:39:10
the Congress of the United States um the
00:39:12
leadership there I mean they are
00:39:15
>> frankly kind of sad pathetic people and
00:39:18
let me explain why. Right. You put um uh
00:39:22
what's his name? Johnson in as as
00:39:24
speaker and he's effectively a rubber
00:39:27
stamp for anything Donald Trump wants.
00:39:29
By the way, whether you agree with Trump
00:39:31
or not, I think you can agree that you'd
00:39:33
like your member of Congress to at least
00:39:36
meet the burdens that they have on them
00:39:38
in the Constitution of the United
00:39:40
States, which is to be a check, which is
00:39:43
to be a a separate branch of government
00:39:46
and a branch of government that has
00:39:48
meaningful responsibilities here. when
00:39:51
the Congress of the United States walks
00:39:53
away from their responsibilities whether
00:39:54
on tariffs or whether on declaring war
00:39:57
and ultimately just kind of empower the
00:40:00
president again agree or disagree
00:40:02
obviously I have profound disagreements
00:40:04
from the president on on those things
00:40:07
then what what you've really done is
00:40:09
you've limited um the power of the
00:40:11
Congress and what you've really done is
00:40:13
you've seen a whole bunch of people that
00:40:15
put Donald Trump before the oath of
00:40:17
office they take to the Constitution and
00:40:19
I think that's just pathetic
00:40:21
by the way, why these people work so
00:40:24
hard to get to Congress, to move up in
00:40:27
leadership, to do all the things they
00:40:29
got to do and then give away their power
00:40:31
to Donald Trump. That's pathetic and
00:40:33
it's weak. And I think our country is
00:40:36
suffering as a result of it. Look, I'm
00:40:38
here in Pennsylvania where where it all
00:40:40
began 250 years ago. And the brilliance
00:40:44
of our founders
00:40:46
um was that they left so much of the
00:40:49
work
00:40:50
to the next generation and the
00:40:52
generation after that to pick up the
00:40:54
baton and continue to perfect our union.
00:40:58
Our founders though always contemplated
00:41:02
two things. one, that there would be
00:41:05
honorable people in office, and two,
00:41:09
that the people in office would exercise
00:41:11
their power and be a check on one
00:41:14
another, and in some cases slow things
00:41:17
down to make sure that bad things didn't
00:41:20
occur, bad things couldn't get through
00:41:22
the process. I think what Americans are
00:41:24
confronting now is a realization that we
00:41:27
don't really have all honorable people
00:41:30
in positions of authority in the federal
00:41:32
government and that that checks and
00:41:34
balance system that was constructed here
00:41:37
in Pennsylvania is not standing the test
00:41:40
of time because you've got these
00:41:42
profoundly and pathetically weak people
00:41:44
like Johnson and others who just simply
00:41:47
give away their power to folks who are
00:41:50
corrupt and to folks who are not acting
00:41:53
in an honorable way.
00:41:54
>> You keep uh bringing up that corruption.
00:41:56
Explain to me what corrupt things you
00:41:59
know that the Trump administration has
00:42:01
done.
00:42:01
>> I think to me there has been an
00:42:03
extraordinary amount of self-deing
00:42:05
there. There has been um a a good bit of
00:42:09
family members doing quite well in this
00:42:12
uh in this environment. I think you're
00:42:15
seeing more and more people who have the
00:42:17
president's ear being able to lobby him
00:42:20
at his swim club to get a pardon for
00:42:22
someone that frankly doesn't deserve a
00:42:24
pardon. I mean, I think the list goes on
00:42:26
and on and on, but those are some
00:42:28
examples that the American people see
00:42:31
with their own eyes. Taking a, you know,
00:42:33
a billion dollar jet from the Qataris
00:42:35
and thinking there's nothing attached to
00:42:37
that, right? I mean, I think that there
00:42:39
is just a lot of that that moves so fast
00:42:42
that the American people are having a
00:42:44
hard time keeping up with it, but there
00:42:46
will be a reckoning one day.
00:42:48
>> Yeah. So, on the pardons, I'm strongly
00:42:51
agreeing. Feels like the pardon power is
00:42:53
super abused. Is is there a path to
00:42:57
refine that tool because it relies on
00:43:00
norms, right? And ever since Bill
00:43:01
Clinton,
00:43:02
>> you know, did some, you know, friends
00:43:04
and then obviously Biden did his son and
00:43:07
then Trump's doing his,
00:43:10
>> you know, folks. It feels like now this
00:43:12
is just a get out of jail card. You come
00:43:14
into an administration and then
00:43:16
everybody from Fouchy to, you know,
00:43:19
Hunter Biden, everybody else is just
00:43:21
going to get a pardon on the way out.
00:43:23
How would you reshape that tool? Well,
00:43:25
let let's be clear and I I don't think
00:43:27
you're suggesting this, but um and I was
00:43:29
critical of Joe Biden when he pardoned
00:43:31
his son, right? I was critical of him
00:43:33
publicly. What we are seeing under
00:43:35
Donald Trump, you have to admit, is next
00:43:38
level when it comes to the abuse
00:43:39
>> on the way. It's Yeah, it's in the first
00:43:41
year. It's not on the last day even.
00:43:43
It's like an ongoing tool here. We had
00:43:45
CZ um who was a a crypto person who got
00:43:48
pardoned and Trump didn't even know who
00:43:50
he was, right?
00:43:51
>> He was just like, I heard he's a good
00:43:53
guy. I mean, I will tell you, I sit at
00:43:55
this desk here and I sign pardons and
00:43:58
clemencies and I take that
00:44:01
responsibility so seriously and and I
00:44:04
agonize over these decisions and and I
00:44:08
pray that I get these decisions right
00:44:10
and I believe I have and I'm transparent
00:44:13
about why I viewed someone as worthy to
00:44:17
get a clemency and also worthy of not
00:44:19
getting one or not worthy I should say
00:44:21
but but also not earning one. And these
00:44:24
are tough tough decisions. Goes back to
00:44:28
what I said a moment ago. Our founders
00:44:30
when they vested that kind of authority
00:44:32
in an executive didn't necessarily do
00:44:34
something wrong by giving the executive
00:44:36
that power, but they were leaning on the
00:44:38
assumption that the executive would be
00:44:41
honorable, that the executive would
00:44:44
would would do this with morality and
00:44:46
real scruples in mind. And and I think
00:44:49
what we're seeing with the president is
00:44:50
if you sidle up to him at his swim club,
00:44:53
you donate a certain amount of money
00:44:55
maybe or you have his ear for some other
00:44:57
social reason, you can usually get him
00:45:00
to give a pardon to someone who's
00:45:01
important to you.
00:45:02
>> Yeah, the the pardons definitely are
00:45:04
super troubling. How do you deal with
00:45:06
the family members and the kids
00:45:08
enriching themselves?
00:45:10
Obviously,
00:45:12
nothing has been um done by a court or
00:45:16
an investigation into Trump's kids at
00:45:18
this point. Um so, we just want to be
00:45:20
clear about that. You know, we had uh
00:45:22
Hunter Biden getting a ridiculous
00:45:24
million-doll board seat. I've never seen
00:45:26
anybody get paid a million dollars to be
00:45:27
on a board. That was obviously corrupt
00:45:29
in some way or somebody trying to curry
00:45:31
favor. Doesn't mean the president Biden
00:45:33
was, but it definitely was corruption
00:45:35
there. How do you deal with kids of and
00:45:39
and this has been going on for a while
00:45:41
um these kind of allegations if we if we
00:45:44
can't rely on honor and norms is there
00:45:47
another proposal here that the kids of
00:45:50
you know people in office can't make
00:45:51
money your kids can't make money if I
00:45:53
was running for office my kids couldn't
00:45:55
make money in the free market how do you
00:45:57
is there any kind of solution you can
00:45:59
think of
00:45:59
>> I think it is important you you cited
00:46:01
Hunter Biden they went through a legal
00:46:03
process there was an investigation by
00:46:05
the department of justice is I think
00:46:06
there has to be a real look. I say this
00:46:09
as a former prosecutor, a real look at
00:46:11
some of this stuff and follow the
00:46:13
evidence, follow the law, and if charges
00:46:14
are warranted, bring them. And by the
00:46:16
way, if charges are not warranted, don't
00:46:18
bring them. Do not um use the the rule
00:46:21
of law as a tool to go against, you
00:46:23
know, political opponents in in any way.
00:46:26
But I think what you've got to have here
00:46:28
are people who are operating with real
00:46:31
morality. And you do have to figure out
00:46:33
a way to operate within the norms.
00:46:34
Again, I'm unwilling to accept that that
00:46:37
is gone. It may be temporarily suspended
00:46:40
under Donald Trump, but I'm hopeful that
00:46:42
we can find our way back to that. Let me
00:46:43
be clear about something else here. That
00:46:45
finding our way back to that
00:46:48
>> is a bipartisan exercise. It's going to
00:46:51
require Republicans and Democrats and
00:46:53
independents all demanding when they go
00:46:56
to the ballot box that we want to
00:46:57
elevate people who are ethical, people
00:47:00
who are honest, people who are focused
00:47:02
on doing their jobs with integrity, and
00:47:05
then when those people are in office,
00:47:07
rewarded with the votes of the public
00:47:09
and in these positions of public trust
00:47:11
to hold them accountable as well.
00:47:13
>> And you believe that can happen in a
00:47:14
postTrump? I do. Yeah,
00:47:16
>> I do.
00:47:16
>> Yeah, I strongly agree. Uh, hey, it's a
00:47:19
year since your home was firebombed
00:47:23
by an insane person who was
00:47:26
anti-Semitic. Your faith comes up over
00:47:29
and over again. I personally think
00:47:30
people are a little uh obsessed with it,
00:47:33
but here we are and the Democratic
00:47:35
Party's been split apart as well over
00:47:37
this support of Israel issue. You have a
00:47:40
very nuanced position. Number one, how
00:47:42
are you dealing with that personally,
00:47:43
the anti-semitism, which to me, as
00:47:46
somebody who grew up in Brooklyn with
00:47:47
lots of Jewish friends and all kinds of
00:47:49
different people, just insane to think
00:47:51
that Jewish students are being or any
00:47:54
particular group of students being
00:47:55
chased by the other students at Columbia
00:47:57
University because they're Jewish and
00:47:58
this chaoticness. Um, it's just
00:48:00
heartbreaking. But as a Jewish person
00:48:03
and literally experiencing it firsthand,
00:48:06
I mean, how are you doing with that?
00:48:08
>> Yeah, I appreciate it. Look, we we
00:48:11
should separate this and have two
00:48:12
conversations. One about Israel and one
00:48:14
about anti-semitism because you kind of
00:48:16
blurred both in that question. Let's
00:48:17
focus first on anti-semitism. I have
00:48:19
been very outspoken
00:48:21
>> about those who are engaging in
00:48:23
anti-semitism, pedalling words that are
00:48:26
anti-semitic. And importantly, I've been
00:48:29
critical of people on the political left
00:48:30
and on the political right. And I think
00:48:32
anti-semitism is a problem in our
00:48:34
society and is a problem on the left and
00:48:37
it is a problem on the right. And I
00:48:39
think it is important that we call it
00:48:41
out. We call it out whether we're in an
00:48:43
interview. Not accusing you by any call
00:48:46
it out when um you know on on social
00:48:49
media and then we just call it out in
00:48:51
our communities in our daily lives where
00:48:54
we see it on that. There should be no
00:48:56
nuance. We should be able to come
00:48:58
together, people who are Jewish, people
00:48:59
are Christian, Muslim, and all agree
00:49:02
that hatred, bigotry in any form
00:49:05
directed at Jew, a Muslim, Christian,
00:49:06
anyone, it has no place. And by the way,
00:49:09
it makes us all less safe. And so we
00:49:13
have to focus on speaking out against
00:49:15
that. No nuance on that.
00:49:17
>> Yeah.
00:49:17
>> On the issue of Israel and the Middle
00:49:19
East and the war in Iran and Gaza,
00:49:21
there's a lot of nuance there. I'm happy
00:49:22
to answer your questions on that. But I
00:49:24
think on the issue of anti-semitism, we
00:49:26
have got to be in a place where we
00:49:28
universally condemn it. And I think what
00:49:30
you're seeing from some folks on the
00:49:33
right and some folks on the left is
00:49:35
they'll only call it out if it's said by
00:49:38
a political opponent or someone they
00:49:40
disagree with. And I frankly respect
00:49:43
people on the right like Ted Cruz who
00:49:45
have called it out within the Republican
00:49:48
party. I've tried to call it out when it
00:49:50
rears its ugly head in my party. It is
00:49:53
important that it be universally
00:49:55
condemned.
00:49:56
>> So easy to do. Let's tackle the uh issue
00:50:00
of Israel. And I would say, yeah, every
00:50:03
Jewish person, Jewish American person
00:50:05
who I know, when I asked them about this
00:50:07
issue, obviously incredible tragedy
00:50:09
October 7th, going and collecting the
00:50:12
hostages seems like a reasonable thing
00:50:14
to do. Was I was there for 9/11, you
00:50:16
know, seems like a pretty analogous
00:50:18
situation. This has to be settled. and
00:50:21
the United States went and did what it
00:50:23
had to do in Afghanistan and took out
00:50:25
Iraq for extra measure. Um, it's a whole
00:50:27
other diversion, but 100% of folks say
00:50:30
they don't agree with Netanyahu's
00:50:32
approach to what happened in Gaza. And
00:50:34
then folks feel a decent number of
00:50:37
people, whether it's reality or not,
00:50:39
that America is getting dragged into
00:50:41
this war with Iran, not under false
00:50:44
pretenses, uh, and because Israel is
00:50:47
pushing us to do it. So, let's take
00:50:49
these two issues separately. And I'm
00:50:51
just curious in understanding your
00:50:53
position on this. Are you part of the
00:50:56
JewishAmerican diaspora that believes,
00:50:59
hey, Israel's right to defend itself,
00:51:01
but maybe Gaza went too far?
00:51:03
>> Okay. Well, first off, um, let me say
00:51:05
this. I don't view this issue as a
00:51:08
Jewish American, as you said. I view
00:51:10
this issue as an American. And I view
00:51:13
this issue in a way of trying to
00:51:15
understand what is the best thing for
00:51:17
America, which to me is having peace and
00:51:21
stability in the Middle East. Okay,
00:51:23
that's how I approach these issues. It
00:51:26
is um and I've been clear and consistent
00:51:29
about this long before October 7th, that
00:51:32
I think Netanyahu, the leader of Israel,
00:51:36
um is someone who's been leading Israel
00:51:38
down a dangerous and isolated path. I
00:51:42
think he has made Israel um more
00:51:45
isolated in the world community. He has
00:51:48
fractured really what used to be a
00:51:50
nonpartisan or bipartisan um American
00:51:54
support for Israel. And I think he has
00:51:56
put Israel in a very dangerous place.
00:51:59
And of course, he was the leader of
00:52:01
Israel who wasn't minding the shop when
00:52:04
October 7th happened. So I've been very
00:52:06
critical of Netanyahu for years and
00:52:09
years and years. I've also for years
00:52:11
made very clear that I think the
00:52:14
America's interest in the region should
00:52:16
be for stability and peace and that it
00:52:19
would be my hope that you would have two
00:52:22
states living peacefully side by side,
00:52:25
Israel and a Palestinian state. Now I
00:52:29
realize that is a long way off given
00:52:31
where we are right now but it is clear
00:52:33
that we need to work toward that and
00:52:35
obviously that Palestinian state cannot
00:52:38
be led by Hamas which is a terrorist
00:52:40
organization and there has to be some
00:52:43
structure that is put in place in order
00:52:46
in order to create that as it relates to
00:52:49
the war which you also asked about in in
00:52:52
your question. I mean this was a war of
00:52:54
choice. The president never defined the
00:52:57
objectives. it is clear he doesn't know
00:52:58
how the hell to get out of this. Um
00:53:01
we'll see what he ultimately does with
00:53:03
his big threats. You know, we're we're
00:53:04
recording this on the eve of his, you
00:53:07
know, of his big uh threat um using
00:53:10
language using language that was so
00:53:14
offensive, you'll excuse my language,
00:53:16
that diminished the value of human life.
00:53:19
Um we'll see what he ultimately does.
00:53:21
Does he chickenen out as he usually does
00:53:23
or does, god forbid, he he go through
00:53:25
with that? This was a war of choice. He
00:53:28
didn't know why he got into it. He
00:53:29
doesn't know how the hell to get out of
00:53:30
it. America,
00:53:31
>> why did he get into it? Handicap, pardon
00:53:34
me, America's national security
00:53:36
interests have not been well served by
00:53:38
this. And economically, you've talked
00:53:40
about this. Economically, we are worse
00:53:42
off uh because of this war. I'm sorry. I
00:53:44
didn't mean to over you.
00:53:46
>> No, no, no. I mean, listen, I I
00:53:48
appreciate your candidness, Governor.
00:53:50
Why did he do it? if you had to handicap
00:53:52
it or what are you hearing when you talk
00:53:53
because you have obviously a lot more
00:53:55
information than the average yeah uh
00:53:57
American why now why did we do this now
00:54:00
we had done you know the strategic uh
00:54:03
trimming of the hedges mowing of the
00:54:05
lawn whatever the term is to get rid of
00:54:06
the nuclear progress that's containment
00:54:09
seemed like a perfect strategy and then
00:54:12
all of a sudden we decide we're going to
00:54:14
do regime change this is after Trump
00:54:16
promised that he would never get an uh
00:54:18
do an intervention like this in the
00:54:20
Middle East this after we were told by
00:54:22
the Republicans, do not vote for a crazy
00:54:24
Democrat who will take us to war with
00:54:27
Iran. And here we are in month 14 or 13
00:54:30
of the Trump presidency. And he started
00:54:33
a war.
00:54:34
>> His own biggest advocates from Megan
00:54:36
Kelly to Tucker Carlson and you know
00:54:39
people on the fringe, Alex Jones, and
00:54:40
everybody in the middle, the comedians
00:54:42
who supported him, the podcast diaspora
00:54:45
or the podcast bros, they're all fleeing
00:54:47
the ship. They did not want this. So,
00:54:50
here we are. Why did he do this? Why
00:54:52
now? What is your handicapping of it?
00:54:54
>> Well, I I'll answer. I will just say
00:54:56
it's yet another broken promise to the
00:54:58
people who put him in power. He screwed
00:55:00
over the farmers who put him in power.
00:55:02
He told people he wouldn't slash
00:55:04
Medicaid. He cut Medicaid. He told
00:55:06
people he'd bring down prices. Prices
00:55:08
have skyrocketed because of his tariffs.
00:55:11
He He's got this long string of broken
00:55:14
promises. Now, why did he break this
00:55:16
particular promise? Let's let's let's
00:55:19
examine the record. First, Rubio went
00:55:21
out and said he did it because if we
00:55:24
didn't move, then Netanyahu was going to
00:55:26
move and was going to force our hand.
00:55:28
Then they walked it back. He said seven
00:55:30
or eight months ago that um they
00:55:33
destroyed their nuclear capabilities and
00:55:36
then came back seven or eight months
00:55:38
later and said we had to go in because
00:55:40
we had to destroy their nuclear
00:55:42
capabilities. I don't know. Then they
00:55:44
said it was about regime change. Well,
00:55:46
great. I mean, we went from like an 80s
00:55:48
something year old Ayatollah to a 60some
00:55:50
year old Ayatollah who by all accounts
00:55:52
um seems to be far more hardline. I'd
00:55:55
hardly call that successful regime
00:55:58
change. So to me it is hard to I think
00:56:02
you've seen I've been trying to be very
00:56:03
forthright in answering your questions.
00:56:05
I don't know how you answer that
00:56:07
question because the president never
00:56:10
answered that question. He never sat in
00:56:13
the Oval Office and looked the American
00:56:15
people in the eye and said, "This is why
00:56:17
we're going in." And you know what? This
00:56:19
isn't semantics. This isn't politics. If
00:56:23
you don't know why you're going in, you
00:56:25
don't know how the hell to get out. You
00:56:27
don't know how to instruct the military,
00:56:29
our brave military, including those 13
00:56:32
souls who did not make it home to their
00:56:34
families because they went on a mission
00:56:36
that the president never defined. And we
00:56:39
mourn their loss. We thank our military
00:56:42
heroes for what they did. And we thank
00:56:43
our military who are out working every
00:56:46
day um on behalf of our freedom and our
00:56:48
safety and our security, but they
00:56:50
deserve a commanderin-chief who would
00:56:52
have defined the mission. And if you
00:56:54
define the mission, you know how to get
00:56:56
out. He never defined the mission. I
00:56:58
don't know ultimately if he will follow
00:57:00
through on his threat. Again, it's, you
00:57:02
know, it's Tuesday afternoon. You and I
00:57:03
are talking. We'll see ultimately what
00:57:05
he does here. But um to me this has been
00:57:08
a failed and compromised mission from
00:57:10
the beginning because he never made
00:57:12
clear why he was going in.
00:57:14
>> Yeah. And I know you got to go in a
00:57:16
moment. It does seem to me that first
00:57:18
explanation sometimes people you know
00:57:20
their first reaction and their first
00:57:22
statement is the true statement uh just
00:57:24
in general. And it does seem like Israel
00:57:26
was going to do this and we joined them
00:57:27
and we didn't need to. And to your point
00:57:31
America should never pardon me. America
00:57:33
should never be led around by any other
00:57:36
nation. It should always be about
00:57:38
America's interests, our national
00:57:39
security interest, the interest of
00:57:41
expanding freedom and opportunity for
00:57:43
the American people. We should never
00:57:45
ever be bullied as maybe President Trump
00:57:48
was by any other world leader.
00:57:51
>> Back to the anti-semitism we're
00:57:52
experiencing now. You said, "Hey, let's
00:57:54
address them separately." But I don't
00:57:56
think you can separate them if we're
00:57:59
getting pulled into this war by another
00:58:01
nation and people believe like you and I
00:58:04
do, hey, Netanyahu maybe went a little
00:58:06
too far here.
00:58:07
>> That is what's causing the anti-semitism
00:58:09
in this country. Don't you think? This
00:58:12
relationship with Israel, the state of
00:58:13
Israel, Netanyahu, that undying support
00:58:16
for Netanyahu, that's not causing the
00:58:18
anti-semitism here. That's what these
00:58:20
young people seem to be saying is we
00:58:22
don't want to vote for somebody who
00:58:24
supports Netanyahu. Well, I think you
00:58:26
got to be real careful on that. You you
00:58:28
the collective, not you individually. I
00:58:31
mean, if you're suggesting, say, that
00:58:34
Jews are Israel and reflect Israeli
00:58:37
policies and support everything Israel
00:58:39
does. I mean, that's one of the oldest
00:58:40
anti-semitic tropes out there. This sort
00:58:43
of notion of dual loyalty. I think it is
00:58:46
fair to vote on the issue of do we
00:58:50
support what Donald Trump is doing
00:58:53
relative to Netanyahu? That's fair. But
00:58:56
to suggest that somehow it's, you know,
00:58:59
because Jews are tied to Israel and
00:59:02
that's why we're doing
00:59:03
>> you and I can parse this issue, I think,
00:59:05
very easily. But young people at
00:59:07
Colombia or Harvard where all this is
00:59:10
going on and these, you know, pro
00:59:12
Palestinian protests are going on. They
00:59:15
don't seem to be able to make that
00:59:16
parse. That seems to be one of the roots
00:59:17
of the problems here that people do put
00:59:19
together.
00:59:20
>> Yeah.
00:59:21
>> These young people, they could be
00:59:22
stupid. they could be misinformed, but
00:59:24
they do put together what the state of
00:59:26
Israel is doing and they equate it with
00:59:29
Judaism.
00:59:29
>> And that's why I've tried and that's why
00:59:31
I've tried to be so outspoken on this
00:59:33
and making clear that on anti-semitism,
00:59:36
there should be no nuance. And that's a
00:59:38
conversation where we should all be able
00:59:39
to unite and that we have to protect a
00:59:42
place for nuance when it comes to M East
00:59:45
policy, when it comes to Israel, when it
00:59:47
comes to Iran and and um and anything
00:59:49
happening in the Middle East. And we
00:59:51
need to give space for those who want to
00:59:54
peacefully, and I want to stress
00:59:55
peacefully protest. We want to give
00:59:58
space to those who differ from the
01:00:00
administration and frankly those who
01:00:02
support the administration to be able to
01:00:03
go out and to protest peacefully. And
01:00:07
that is, I think, an important part of
01:00:10
the fabric of our American society. I
01:00:12
just think it's important I try and do
01:00:14
this work every day as governors to keep
01:00:16
those conversations separate because
01:00:17
when they get blended that's where I
01:00:19
think it gets dangerous and that's where
01:00:21
um I I think it it really crosses a line
01:00:24
into something we don't want to see in
01:00:26
our society
01:00:26
>> and you could be super critical of
01:00:29
Israel and you could love your Jewish
01:00:33
neighbors and friends. These are these
01:00:34
this is a very simple concept here
01:00:36
>> and I think that reflects where I am on
01:00:39
many things. I've been super critical of
01:00:40
the Israeli government, the Netanyahu
01:00:43
government. Um, and and I'm someone uh
01:00:46
who who loves Israel, someone who has
01:00:48
spent time in Israel. I wrote a whole
01:00:50
book about um I proposed to my wife
01:00:53
there and and how I think the the idea
01:00:56
of it is is important. We've got to
01:00:57
figure out ways to keep those two
01:01:00
conversations
01:01:01
um not not separate, but but blurring
01:01:04
the lines in a way that creates some
01:01:06
dangers, I I think is something we have
01:01:08
to guard against. Yeah, lots of
01:01:10
education, lots of opportunities. Josh
01:01:11
Shapiro, thank you so much for coming on
01:01:13
All In and we look forward to having you
01:01:15
on again and good luck with your uh
01:01:17
race. Good luck with your 76ers. I will
01:01:20
see you in the second round. It looks
01:01:21
like
01:01:22
>> next year or next time I'm on. I'll be
01:01:24
wearing a Sixers hoodie. So, um
01:01:26
>> go Knicks.
01:01:28
>> I'll see you courtside my friend. You go
01:01:30
to the games.
01:01:47
I'm going all in.
