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I'm very excited to announce that the vice president JD Vance can be with us today. The last time that we saw um the
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vice president on stage like this at an all-in summit, he wasn't the vice president yet. It was about 10 months
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ago at the all-in summit that we did last year and uh obviously a lot has changed. I think he's been doing a
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phenomenal job and making us all proud and uh it's going to be great to catch up with him. So with without further
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ado, Vice President JD Vance. Guys, how are you? Good to see you, man. Good to see you, David.
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Good to see you. What's up, brother? How are you? Nice to see you. Good to see you. How are you, man? Good to see you.
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How you doing? Good. So, the last time I did this podcast, I think Jason was a huge to me
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because the vice president, you seem to be nice to me now, Jason. Oh, it's on. Well, okay. Let me get my
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list of topics. He was hoping you'd give him a White House tour later today, so we'll see how
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this goes. You're you're welcome to have a White House tour. Really? I know a guy.
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I asked David three times. I know a guy. His his invitation's been lost in the mail a few times, but
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Well, no, actually, listen, if we're starting it out, um, congratulations on a great run.
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Thank you. I appreciate it. It was fun. You know, we can differ on some of the margins. Um, but I just think all
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Americans appreciate the pace at which, especially in the technology industry, you're going and the effectiveness. So,
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I just want to congratulate you on that. Sincerely, I appreciate that. Uh, okay. So, let's get into uh some
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topics, right? Uh immigration. When we last talked, you said uh I said, "Hey, you're going to deport 20 million
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people all at once. That seems quite chaotic." And you said, "No, we're going to we're going to do it like a sandwich.
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Take a couple of bites." Uh how's that going? I think it's going well. I mean, we are
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criticized, interestingly, by some folks on the right who want the pace of deportations to be higher. And I
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certainly understand that, frankly, and share that frustration. The counterargument is the courts are trying
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to step stop us at every step of the way. And until about a month ago, we didn't have the resources for ICE to
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actually get this massive invasion that Joe Biden led into our country. We didn't have the resources necessary to
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actually process a lot of those people. That has changed because of the big beautiful bill. We've also gotten some
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court case wins. So, I expect uh that the pace of deportations will increase a little bit. But importantly, when people
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criticize us and they say, you know, sometimes I'll hear this criticism, well, the pace of deportations from the
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Trump administration is actually lower than it was in the B administration. And that's actually a completely fake
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statistic. It's based on the fact that if you come into the country illegally and then the Biden administration
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processes you and sends you out, that counts as a deportation. It counts as an illegal immigration and then it counts
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as deportation. So, you have to look at the net number, right? If you do plus one minus one, I'm not a math expert,
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but I'm pretty sure that's zero. The net number is what really matters. And where
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the Trump administration, where we've been most wildly successful is that we have I think in 2025, we will have the
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first net negative immigration number in about 50 or 60 years in the United States. And so there has been a major a
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major major shift in immigration policy. Now again, I I'm I'm like, you know, me
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and Steven Miller are probably the two most hardline people in the entire administration when it comes to
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immigration. So there's always more that we can do. And like I said, I think that
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there is more that we can do. But if you just look fundamentally what people said
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is that if you actually take border enforcement seriously, the entire economy is going to collapse.
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Inflation's going to go through the roof. Housing costs are going to go through the roof. And if you look, while
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there's still a lot more to do, inflation has cooled. Housing costs are now showing signs of peaking. I think
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according to Zillow, over the past 12 months, housing costs have gone up8%. Uh the previous the Biden administration,
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they basically nearly doubled the cost of a mortgage for an average family. So there there are a lot of things that
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we're showing work and we're showing importantly that it turns out if you put your faith in American workers, you can
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build great companies, you can build a great economy. You don't have to build an entire economy on illegal labor,
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which is what the Democrats told us we had to do. So, we're not just doing a good job. I think we're also proving out
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the use case and proving out what the Trump campaign said that it was going to do in the Trump administration.
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And President Trump, I think, um, came out and said, "Hey, we maybe should appreciate some of these immigrants
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who've been here for 20 years and maybe give them a path to citizenship. Maybe think about restaurants and farms and
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maybe show some compassion to those people." And I think the objection perhaps uh that some of us have is the
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the style in which you're doing it a little aggressive what happened in LA and um you seem to maybe internally in
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uh the administration found a middle ground maybe and listen to the other side and maybe our opinions on it.
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Well, first the the Trump administration obviously is a big group of people with
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a lot of different opinions and we all have to talk about this stuff and try to come up with the right decision. But the
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the Trump the administration the decision maker is of course one man. Yeah. And while he listens to everybody he's
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ultimately going to make the decisions that he thinks are best for the country and then we go and execute that after of
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course having a big a big conversation around the inner circle. You know what what the president has said is number
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one we're not going to do amnesty in this country. We're we're actually not going to tell people who have come into
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the country illegally that they're allowed to break our laws and be rewarded for it. We're just not going to
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do that. But there are a whole host of other ways when we talk to you know agricultural um industries and others
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where they say well you know we really need labor. Well there are a whole host of ways in which you can try to solve
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those problems. My favorite solution for those problems is automation right. Uh I
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actually think there's a lot of evidence that the American agricultural economy is a little behind the eightball when it
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comes to using technology. There are ways where we're talking about facilitating the use of automation. So
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we're not going to have amnesty. We also recognize that there are a lot of industries out there we want to thrive
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and I think the president is trying to strike the right balance. And Jason, you said something about compassion and I
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think this is really important. I I do think that we we we have to make a stronger argument here. There's nothing
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discompassionate or there's nothing hateful about enforcing your own borders. It's a question of do you
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facilitate Thank you guys. But do you facilitate these Mexican drug cartels, the drug
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trafficking that they're engaging? Of course not. the hundreds of thousands. I'm not saying you would ever say this,
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but the hundreds of thousands of missing children under the Biden administration.
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The fact that some of these young girls are being sex traffked by Mexican drug cartels. When you enforce the nation's
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border laws, that is the most compassionate thing to do both for your own people, but also for the people who
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are legally. Yeah, I agree on the border. Let me uh shift to AI for one second. In
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I think it was February, I want to get the date right. Um you went to France and then you went to Germany and these
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were two incredibly iconic speeches. one on AI and then one at the Munich Security Conference. Um, and I think it
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was a in many ways an incredible moment where you just started to establish American priorities again abroad. Can
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you just go into the strategy of those speeches and where they came from and just the bigger arc of the first six to
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nine months and what the goals were? Yeah. So for the AI summit, the president really wanted me to do this
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and of course, you know, happy to go to Paris and give a speech and talk about American priorities. But there there was
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this big moment we thought we had an opportunity to sort of p plant our flag and say America is done with the
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overregulating with the constant worrying about the future. We're going to lean into the
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future. We're going to embrace the future and try to make sure America dominates in the future. And that's such
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a radical departure from both the safetyism of the Biden administration, but also frankly the safety of a lot of
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our friends in Europe. And I had been, you know, there for about 24 hours. I had met with with with Emanuel Mcronone,
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the leader of of France. Had a good conversation and and a lot of the other people in Europe. And the thing that I
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kind of picked up is that they're so terrified about the problems with AI. And to be clear, there are problems with
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AI. But if you're so terrified with the problems with AI, you don't actually embrace the potential, then you're going
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to get the worst of the problems without any of the benefits, the upside of it. And that's what I think was so broken
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about our administration's um approach during the Biden years. And it's what's so different about our our actual
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administration here uh during the Trump years. So our attitude is yeah, there are some consumer protection issues.
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There are some data privacy issues. We don't want the AI companies to do what the big tech companies did in 2020 and
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2021, which is steal people's data and then censor an entire large swath of the American people for saying things that
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were said to be conspiracies, but later turned out to be true. We're not going to do that, but we're also going to
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embrace innovation. We're going to make sure that America stays at the the the leading edge of the artificial
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intelligence boom. And we think when that happens, it's going to create a lot of jobs. It's going to create a lot of
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productivity. We talked about agriculture. I think it's going to lead to a new food revolution where we can
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grow a lot more food on a lot less land. There there's just a whole host of things that being forward focused on
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technology can bring to this country. And that is the story. I think the story of American entrepreneurship and
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American economic growth is that when we grow through technology and development
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and productivity that enters to the benefit of all Americans and makes us more powerful and more wealthy. When we
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try to grow our economy, frankly, through importing cheap labor, that I think is a dead end. We've taken that
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pathway for far too long in this country. The Trump administration is going to take a different path.
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What about relativism? So, uh, just framing up the big open question about our relationship with China. There's
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there's trade discussions going on, but China this week, it was it was revealed or announced has sold off half their
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treasury, US Treasury holdings. Um, as you look at the technology uh curve in China, the fiscal situation and the
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difference between the two, how much should our policy be informed relative to China where we sit with China versus
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forget about China, let's just make America great and focus on creating jobs and moving our industries forward.
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Yeah, it's it's got to be a little bit of both. And I you know, it's always tough to strike the right balance. I
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mean, look, China is our biggest economic competitor in the entire world. uh when you look at their technology
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industry, I think it's the only tech industry, especially when it comes to things like AI where they're even sort
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of knocking on the door of America. Now, I still think that we have the best hardware. I think that we have the best
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software. I still think that we're the most technologically forward economy. Uh but our but our, you know, our edge is
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not something we can sort of rest on our laurels. So I think it is useful to look
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to the Chinese to benchmark our own progress and to say that if we're regulating ourselves to death and
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allowing the Chinese to catch up to us. That's not something frankly we should blame the Chinese for. That's something
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we should blame our own leaders for for having stupid policies that allow other countries to catch up to America. So
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it's a useful benchmark, but I still think fundamentally we have to take the attitude of, you know, we want the world
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to be built, I think, on an American technology stack, not on a Chinese or some other country's technology stack.
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And if you're too focused on the relative comparison and not focused enough on just building and creating
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great things, I think that it can become a little bit of a crutch and a little bit of a I I don't know, an impediment
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to focusing on your own stuff and doing your own thing. And it's why we have a great AISAR here and David Sachs. But
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we're we're really focused on how does America just do as well as we possibly can. Yes, we want to stay ahead of
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China, but we want to stay ahead of everybody else because this is America and we want it to stay the greatest
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country in the world. And related to that, does that mean American businesses should be allowed to
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sell into China, participate there as a customer market? And if so, in the trade
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negotiations, is there a push for par so that American businesses can operate in
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China or elsewhere in the world as easily as those companies can operate in America?
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Yeah. So, as the president said, it's it's a bit of a balance, right? There are certain critical elements of our
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technology stack. There are certain critical technologies. We know that some Chinese firms engage in IP theft. So, we
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don't want to give them our very best stuff because we're worried a little bit that they might steal it. But of course
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there are certain industries that we want to sell into China. We actually want to broaden American workers access
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to the world. And part of our frustration with China is on the one hand they steal some of our newest
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technology and on the other hand they don't let Americanmade products into their country. What we want to do is
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actually reverse that. We want to sell Americanmade products into China but we don't want to allow them to steal our
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critical intellectual property. And we have to strike that balance in a much better way than not just the Biden
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administration, but better than the the the the Obama administration and the Bush administration did, too. But
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striking that balance is something I think the president's very focused on. I'm certainly very focused on. And we've
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now got a much better approach now than we have in a long time in this country. How do you think it plays out for not
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China or the United States, but all of the other sort of smaller countries when AI gets to scale? Can how do you think
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strategically the chessboard ends up being organized? Is there a new form of the United Nations? Is there a new form
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of NATO but more productive? Like how do you think it plays out for the 180th country in the world when they need
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things? Yeah, it's it's a very interesting question and I don't want to you know
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predict the future too much here. It's always a fraugh business especially in politics. But you know what one of the
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things that's interesting a foreign leader came to me relatively recently. This is actually last week. um small
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country but very important country strategically very good ally of the United States and basically pitched me
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on creating a NATO alternative outside of Europe but where countries that were aligned with the United States built on
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the same technology stack there was a shared sort of you know shared access to technology shared access to certain
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weaponry and so forth and he was like we really want to be part of team America but there isn't even an existing
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infrastructure that would allow us to be team America And I had never thought about it in that way. I haven't even
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talked to the president yet about it. But it's interesting that world leaders are coming and saying this is how we're
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thinking about the future. And and the technology piece of it is a very critical angle because as you guys
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probably appreciate, I assume the audience appreciates is that you know sometimes when you build with with
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Chinese firms or Chinese technology, it seems like a pretty good deal, right? Larry Summers once had this famous quote
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that you know when in Africa when developing countries talk to the United States and talk to um China. The the
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Americans show up with a moral lecture and the Chinese show up with a bag of money. Well, you know the bag of money
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obviously I prefer that to the moral lecture. But you realize that bag of money sometimes comes with debt
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servitude. It sometimes comes with a sort of neoc colonial control of the host country. What a lot of nations are
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realizing is they're not just showing up with a bag of money and we'd much rather
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be on team America, but it does require much more forward leadership. And you the B administration I I don't know what
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it was, but there was just this deepseated fear of the future. I'm sure it was motivated by having a president
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who didn't necessarily know where he was from from day to day, but there was there was
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on the Sorry, it's over. You won, JD. You won. We still get to have a little fun with a
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couple. It's okay. But look, but there was just this really weird fear of the future that I think is totally absent in
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the Trump administration. It makes our politics much better. Are you comfortable with a multi-olar
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world or do you still think that there should be American primacy on a global stage?
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I I mean I I I I think it's an abstract question that's interesting, but fundamentally in some ways the world is
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going to be multipolar in the sense that there are different Yeah, we want regional allies to step up. I mean,
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you've heard the president say this before. you know, we we'd love a Middle East where we have to spend a little bit
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less time and a little bit less money and our regional allies, both, you know, Israeli and Arabs, step up in a bigger
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way. We'd like to see that, of course, in Europe. And I think one of the big accomplishments of the president in the
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first term, something that the media still doesn't give him enough credit for, is he actually got NATO to step up
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and make major security commitments about their own sector of the world. Now, that's sometimes interpreted as,
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well, America doesn't like Europe anymore. No, we like Europe so much that we want Europe to step up and take a
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little bit more self-control of its own continent. Of course, we're going to be their friends and of course we're going
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to work with them, but we we definitely see a world where some of our regional allies step up a little bit more. I
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think that's a good thing. Of course, they're going to be ali allied with the United States, aligned with the United
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States in important ways. But other countries taking a bigger a bigger role in their own self-defense
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and in their own region. That's fundamentally a good thing for America. It also feels, I think, more fair to the
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American people when the president is able to negotiate the rare earth deal with Ukraine and say, "Hey, if you want
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weapons, that's fine, but it's on a loan lease. You got to pay for them. They're
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not free." Um, I think one of your great strengths is your empathy for the working men and women of this country.
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And uh one of the big discussions we're having in our industry, which will fall on your plate, um in your career is
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going to be job displacement. So I'm wondering how the administration thinks about that. For every self-driving car
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we put on the road, that's four drivers who are going to have their jobs retired. They'll be displaced. For every
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Optimus robot or humanoid robot that eventually makes it into a factory, that'll be five or six factory jobs. Uh
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you spoke about the agricultural jobs as well. So how do you think about that automation and the pace at which it's
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going to happen? Because if you ask anybody in technology, none of us have the answer of how quickly this will
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happen. We are optimistic of course, but there could be displacement. If there is
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displacement, who's responsible? The administration, the technologists who cause it, the free market, nobody. And
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we'll just let the chips fall where they may. What do you think, JD? Well, a a couple of thoughts on this. So
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f first of all, I am a little bit more optimistic about automation. And I if if you look at some of the doom narratives
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about automation, you know, the robots are coming to take all of our jobs. If the robots were coming to take all of
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our jobs, you would see labor productivity skyrocketing in this country, but you actually see labor
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productivity flatlining. And what that means actually is that our country is underexed in technology and not
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overindexed in technology. Maybe we're overindexed in software, but we're underindexed in the real kind of
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technology that boosts productivity. So, I'm not saying there won't be job displacement, but I always think of the
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example of the bank teller. And in the 1970s, when the ATM machine, the automated teller machine was created,
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there was a whole host of articles about how this would destroy a ton of middle class jobs in the banking sector. What
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actually happened is we have more bank tellers now than we did in the 1970s. they do slightly different jobs and
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they're more productive and they earn higher wages, but I think that's the story of technology. Productivity is
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fundamentally good. Now, now there is a a displacement that I worry about and I I you know I was frankly not even aware
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this was an issue until a couple of weeks ago and I'm trying to dig into it a little bit which is where on the one
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hand you see some Silicon Valley technology firms especially the big firms say that they are desperate for
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workers that they can't find for work workers that they have to use you know overseas visa programs to find workers
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and yet at the same time the college educated employment rate for STEM graduates in this country seems to be
00:19:05
declining. Yep. Well, wait a second. If you're not hiring American workers coming out of
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colleges for these jobs, then how can you say that you have a a massive shortage in these jobs? And by the way,
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you see some big tech companies where they'll lay off 9,000 workers and then they'll apply for a bunch of overseas
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visas. And I I sort of wonder that doesn't totally make sense to me. The math doesn't that that displacement and
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that math worries me a bit. And what the president has said, he said very clearly, we want the very best and the
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brightest to make America their home. We want them to build great companies and so forth. But I don't want companies to
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fire 9,000 American workers and then to go and say we can't find workers here in
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America. That's a story. What did Microsoft say when you uh brought that up with Microsoft?
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I have I I it's Have you talked to them about it? I have I have not. I just became aware
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of this a couple weeks ago. Somebody sent me an article about this and they said, "Well, you know," and it maybe it
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was Microsoft that fired, I think, 9,000 people. And then I was like, "Wait a second."
00:20:07
Record profits, record market cap, and but also saying they're they're desperate for workers. So, I have not
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yet had that conversation with Microsoft. In my defense, I just found out a four-year college degree the wrong
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answer. So the this is this is really important because like so much of our system the American dream sorry to cut
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your mouth off but just a follow on to this like has been degraded by this idea that everyone should get a college
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degree then they end up with $100,000 of debt and they can't get enough of an income to get themselves out of that
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debt. What's the right solution in this evolution in the workforce and this evolution under this uh this AI
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transition that we're experiencing? Yeah. So one I I agree with that though I think it's it's a slightly different
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question right you can believe that you want American firms to hire American college graduates but then also wonder
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if the college education system we have in this in this country is broken and I certainly think that it is. I mean, you
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know, one, I I really, you know, when I went to I went to Ohio State for undergrad and then Yale Law School. When
00:21:06
I was at Yale, I guess this is 2010 to 2013, I felt like it was a very leftleaning place, but it was still
00:21:13
fundamentally a place where you could debate ideas, where you wouldn't be penalized for stepping outside of the
00:21:18
orthodoxy. When I talk to college kids, when I talk to 21-year-olds at some of these universities, some of them feel
00:21:24
like they're living in like a North Korean totalitarian style dictatorship where the social unemployment cost of
00:21:31
saying anything outside of the Overton window is so severe. That's not a useful social institution. Like I want colleges
00:21:38
to promote free thinking, even dangerous ideas. You know, challenge those ideas.
00:21:43
Maybe some of them are wrongs, maybe some of them are right. But if you as a college are actually promoting social
00:21:50
conventional thinking, then you're not serving your fundamental purpose. And I think the entire university system in
00:21:55
this country is broken because of that fact. I want to go back to building great
00:22:00
companies for a second. Um, America, I think sometimes we lost our footing over the last 20 years because we weren't
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able to think strategically outside the lenses of just the United States. And what I mean specifically is if you look
00:22:13
in China, they were able to pick eight or nine industries and say we need to have national champions because they are
00:22:19
just so fundamentally critical to national security, population health, economic vibrancy, etc. I think it was a
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couple weeks ago and Jim Latinsky is going to come on later, but we did a version of that deal where the DoD
00:22:31
partnered with an American company who has a mine in America. We're going to bring these rare earths. We're going to
00:22:36
manufacture them here. We're going to do the entire supply chain here. Do you think that that's a one-off thing or how
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do you see the public private partnership in that gray area in the middle evolve when we think about these
00:22:48
strategic priorities like AI? Yeah. So Shabbath, if you think about the great era of American economic
00:22:53
dominance, right? It's the 40s, it's the ' 50s, it's the 60s, it's when we were so far ahead of the rest of the world
00:22:58
that, you know, e economically it just felt like nobody could possibly catch up to us. And back in that area era, one of
00:23:06
the great things that worked was true public private partnerships where we let the free market, we let private
00:23:12
industries do what private industries were really good at. But we had a discrete goal in public policy and we
00:23:17
tried to facilitate it. Right? There were certain basic research things that didn't make sense in a um in a private
00:23:23
sector context, but maybe they made sense for the country overall. There are certain, you know, weapon systems that
00:23:27
maybe weren't profitable. We were going to make them profitable because they were important for American national
00:23:32
security. Of course, the entire moon landing is a story of a great public private partnership that produced a
00:23:37
whole host of great technological development and economic benefit downstream. I I I I do think that we're
00:23:44
taking a very discreet view of certain industries, of certain core technologies, certain core weapons
00:23:49
systems, and saying the United States is not going to allow our industrial base,
00:23:53
our technology base to atrophy anymore. You've seen some stuff out of that. I mean, we're only six months into this
00:23:59
thing, and I think we've done a hell of a job. I'm obviously biased, but we we're only six months into this. You're
00:24:03
going to see a lot more over the next three and a half years. You've been working with uh as we wrap
00:24:07
here. I know you're very busy. Um you've been working with David for the last 6 months at the White House. Take us into
00:24:13
uh you know the cafeteria, the messaul, you and Sachs and Trump. Do you have do you have a recollection of a great Sax
00:24:20
story behind the scenes with the president yourself maybe going downstairs getting like a little Mickey
00:24:25
De's or something? I know you're a fan. Well, okay. I I I have one David Sach story. I was actually in the Navy mess,
00:24:32
which is sort of the cafeteria and the White House. And we're sitting down there and we're eating lunch and uh some
00:24:38
some young kid, I don't I I don't know if it was a White House intern or somebody walks over, they see David Sax,
00:24:43
oh, David Sachs. And they were so impressed and they look at me and they go, "Oh, shit."
00:24:50
Also impressive. Yeah. And so like, oh, there's there's the vice president. So, you know, even
00:24:55
even for the vice president of the United States, we're all just shadows and this is not famous.
00:25:00
You can always, you know, start a podcast. That's where you get real fame is podcast.
00:25:07
It's it's crazy how many people watch these things. It is. It is. It's definitely crazy. And
00:25:12
JD, we are uh rooting for you. We appreciate your service. you've been working very hard and uh we really
00:25:17
appreciate how open you are to having these discussions full contact uh and being um just really supportive of our
00:25:25
industries and that was something uh we didn't have uh in the Biden administration uh not to make it
00:25:30
political but we didn't have a seat at the table and now we have David Sachs in the White House. So this is a real
00:25:35
turnaround and and we really appreciate you um and what you've done I think you have
00:25:39
done an incredible job as a vice president. I don't think you go back in history like the last 10 15
00:25:47
who's had as many icon iconic moments as you have had. It's really incredible. So thank you.
00:25:53
Appreciate you guys. Appreciate. Good to see you guys. Good stuff. Thank you. Thank you.