00:00:00
But I do personally think it's the best thing I've ever done in my whole life. Full stop. And I was like, look, you're
00:00:05
clearly insane. Like I'm I've never drank alcohol. And I'm not going to touch an illegal drug. But the biggest
00:00:12
interference is death. It's not my I don't choose the time. I don't choose like and we need to change that.
00:00:25
My guest today is a friend, but he's also most definitely the most interesting
00:00:31
human being I have ever encountered in my life. He's an entrepreneur. He's an investor, but he's also just a really
00:00:37
nice guy. And he's invested and started companies in some of the most fascinating industries from psychedelics
00:00:43
to space tech to artificial intelligence to cryptocurrencies to fintech. You name
00:00:49
it, he's in there. In fact, he's the single biggest investor slashd driving
00:00:54
force behind the whole psychedelics industry which is currently trying to cure mental health disorders. This is
00:01:00
undoubtedly the most interesting person I know and I think this is the type of
00:01:05
podcast where you're going to demand a part two because we spoke for 2 hours and even I was left feeling that I was
00:01:12
only scratching the surface and that I wanted to know more. The man I'm talking about is Christian Anamaya. And I
00:01:18
genuinely believe he's going to become, if he isn't already, one of Europe's most important investors and
00:01:24
entrepreneurs. In the same way that people praise Elon Musk for all the work he's done in the US, I think he's Europe's answer to Elon Musk. Without
00:01:31
further ado, I'm Steven Butler and this is the D of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please
00:01:38
keep this to yourself.
00:01:46
Christian, I I know so much about you and the work you do. I I know your, you
00:01:52
know, I've observed your behavior in person over the last, you know, six 6 to 12 months. Um, deeply deeply
00:01:58
fascinating. But the part of you that I know very very little about is your early years, your upbringing, your
00:02:03
childhood. Cute child. Really? I I've been fascinated by I think it was a cute child.
00:02:09
I've only heard slithers of that part of your life. So could you tell me a little bit more about
00:02:14
the childhood that made the man? The the main point I'm always making which I'm really literally happy about
00:02:19
is that I was a very very happy child. Meaning I'm still a very happy person. But I think the reason why I'm
00:02:25
groundedly happy is because I had a great like how do you say um childlike
00:02:31
upbringing like I was growing up in a 90 people village. Um, so Bavaria in Bavaria
00:02:37
in Bavaria I literally knew everybody then there were a lot of other children so I'm an only child but like I had a
00:02:43
lot of children sort of same age plus - 4 years to to grow up with um and we
00:02:49
were literally like in a TV series we were out all day like in summer in winter like it was very much like you
00:02:55
would picture like what is these American TV series where they might they own on a farm or whatever like it was
00:03:01
like that like sort of um idyllic childhood really idyllic like yeah no crime like
00:03:09
no risk like I was literally my mom sent me out in the morning uh in summer winter and I came back in the evening
00:03:14
since I'm like five like I was because there was no risk for anything like um yeah so that was sort of the very
00:03:21
very this was till I'm 9 and then we moved to a town mini city town with like
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2,000 people so it's nearby like kil kilometer apart um so it was all very
00:03:32
very rural very which I liked. So I'm actually was thinking about if I have children or when I have children then
00:03:40
how to recreate that which I think won't work. So, but like I think it's great to have nature which is also by the way I
00:03:46
mean already jumping but like yeah because you know that I do a lot in in
00:03:51
mental health work like and one thing which is really healthy very very simple for your mental health is nature like
00:03:58
there is even in Japan they prescribe like a walk in the forest as a as a
00:04:04
treatment for depression. So anyway, so I grew up in these super nice childhood. Like I always was funnily um very
00:04:10
entrepreneurial. Yeah. And nobody else is. So not in my family, not in this
00:04:17
village. Like so that was always literally like with six. My mom still
00:04:22
has the So the first thing which I did when I learned writing was writing
00:04:28
invoices like so tiny bills like oh give me five give me five cent for for
00:04:35
salads. So I was actually had a very flourishing gardening business. So since I'm four like five
00:04:42
how's it going? Sorry wrong English term. So psychedelics. No, I I stopped it later on when I was
00:04:50
12. I was like, "No, but this how I started my first business." But my mom still remembers that the first thing I
00:04:56
did with my writing skills was writing her an invoice for salad and everything.
00:05:01
And then I was literally like in a movie. It's very stereotype, but I was selling um lemonade to neighbors.
00:05:08
Then I was selling lollipops in school. I was selling literally everything. Like I made a business out of everything. So
00:05:15
I I remember when I went to the my first cinema um ever uh I think I was like
00:05:21
seven. Um then I was so fascinated that people are buying for something which is
00:05:26
apparently also on TV. They didn't get the difference. So then I started charging my parents at home when they
00:05:32
wanted to switch on the TV because I was pretending I was running a cinema. So uh yeah. So every literally
00:05:39
everything I was doing I saw through the lens of a business and and when you look at your children my parents were deeply worried in a nice
00:05:45
way but they were worried. They always tend to be with with kids that are slightly different but they they Exactly. I Yeah. So I look
00:05:51
like them. So the discussion if they maybe not my parents was early off the table. Yeah. But like sort of from the
00:05:59
way how I see the world and I'm very different. What were the factors, the sort of macro
00:06:05
factors at play that were making you into this entrepreneur at that age, but also the entrepreneur you came to become?
00:06:11
It was always there. Like I sometimes I think for myself, I think because my parents were never around, they create this big sort of void of freedom and independence, which I
00:06:18
thought made this connection in my mind that if I was going to get something, it came from my behavior. I'm thinking about those factors
00:06:24
that, you know, freedom. You said, you know, I've heard you say that your parents were very keen for you just to
00:06:29
be happy. Yeah, exactly. like they were always like I can be whatever I want. So, but it was not that I don't I don't know if
00:06:35
that automatically leads to entrepreneurship. It could also have led to me being an artist or whatever. Like I don't think there is a connection
00:06:43
between freedom. It's actually the freedom to be whatever you want. And then I think maybe you maybe it's
00:06:48
genetic. Maybe it's like I don't know like u I this is the the point meaning it was always there. There is not there
00:06:54
is not a moment I can think of where I sort of changed but it was literally since I can
00:07:01
think since I'm four five six like very very early it was always there to make a business out of everything in a nice way
00:07:08
hopefully that coupled with some kind of innate curiosity which is you Peter the said when he did did a quote about you in
00:07:15
sifted he said that curiosity is one of your real sort of Yeah but I don't I just thinking if that
00:07:21
was that early visible I loved school which I think I was a very nerdy child as well. So I yeah I um I loved actually
00:07:29
I did love school for and even meaning now more talking than later high school for the one reason and even if I look
00:07:36
back now I really miss it a bit because it was the only time in life where you
00:07:41
do something for the pure reason of learning something with no material sort
00:07:47
of meaning I turned that then also in a business because I started my my this was my first real business was when I
00:07:52
started a tutoring business when I was 14. Um and then I um
00:07:58
what was that business? Tell me. Tutoring like like giving sort of other kids. Yeah. Because I was extremely good
00:08:03
in school. So I was always the best one in my school but I was practically always the best one in like the Bavaria
00:08:09
or whatever. Like top 10. Yeah. And I was always I like to explain stuff. So
00:08:14
So I think I think that still helps me now because it's part of fundraising to
00:08:19
explain complex sort of things to people. Anyway, so I liked I I did like
00:08:25
to explain stuff and I did like to um and I I was good in the matter. So So I
00:08:30
started tutoring. Then there was this tiny thing I I think a bit that because the teachers very much liked me because
00:08:36
I was always like uh the good child like everybody who came to me automatically
00:08:42
became a little bit better because teachers were treating these children more nicer because they were coming to
00:08:47
me. So it became this sort of um positive virtual circle that more and
00:08:52
more parents were like oh god we have to send our children to Christian because it really works and I think and what were you doing for these kids?
00:08:57
Well, tutoring like how teaching them the same thing the same thing because they were these were the the ones who didn't perform well. How
00:09:03
you call it English? Tutoring, right? Yeah. Yeah. Too. And they were your peers. They were the same age. Same age or younger? No. Or younger.
00:09:09
Like it was mainly like a little bit younger. Like one or two years, but not a lot younger. So anyway, and then I was like after
00:09:14
half a year I was so like full. Like I think I worked like
00:09:19
10 15 hours a week uh practically all the time. like it was tutoring like and
00:09:24
then I was like how do I really scaled it up and it sounds now very um I don't
00:09:30
know very banal yeah but for me this was like the first time I really thought about business like in an
00:09:35
entrepreneurial way how do you scale it up and practically I realized I have the brand because parents want to send their
00:09:41
children to me um so I was employing other uh other pupils my same age or
00:09:48
even a little bit older and said you can teach under my brand and you get half of it and I get half of it. So 50% margin
00:09:55
and I started employing and I continuously till my final grade had like
00:10:02
10 people like always employed. Yeah. Who were tutoring other children. Yeah. So it was a very lucrative
00:10:08
business. Um meaning for for a child like but it's crazy. Absolutely crazy. And then so you get to 16, you get to 18
00:10:15
in that period of your life. I hear that in Bavaria they have this like public service you've got to do for a year. Yeah. I just was thinking like how
00:10:21
compliant do I have to be because then it's all I think what is it called when it's out of time is back like nobody
00:10:28
nobody can claw it back like because what happened is like I was always extremely libertarian
00:10:33
and in we had back then it changed in Germany but we had back then like the Israelis have still you had to go to the
00:10:39
military for a year and I think in generally this is wrong not because I'm
00:10:44
against the military but I think you can employ people this is a job like people would should want to be a soldier or
00:10:50
should want to be something else. But I I think as a government meaning I in general you think the less government
00:10:56
the better. So I I was thinking hopefully this comes across charm but because I was thinking all the time how
00:11:01
to avoid it. Unfortunately I was not daring enough back then. There were tricks to do it like you could have had
00:11:08
said you're sort of mentally ill or whatever like I was not brave enough to go on with that. So I I decided to do um
00:11:19
you can you could also opt to do civil servant. I s civil servant like to go to a hospital or whatever. So and I tried
00:11:25
to be really nice. So I picked a job which I knew is it didn't really require
00:11:31
me. It was more like okay you had to put these children who didn't want to go to the military. You could say you're
00:11:36
pacifist. You had to put them somewhere. It was not that somebody was dependent on me. So I was sitting in that hospital
00:11:42
and my only job was to bring stuff from A to B like whatever. So then I made an
00:11:49
I remember that I made um um how do you say a proposal that if we reorganize
00:11:55
everything in the hospital I could do my job in an hour and then go home. Yeah. So this was I was 18 and then they were
00:12:01
like okay this is crazy like it's not really really uh popular. Um, so and
00:12:08
then I made a decision that I'm not really going to show up anymore. Um and
00:12:13
the only way to do that was to um to get always like doctors to give me like um
00:12:20
letter a letter and so now comes but the important point because like till that
00:12:25
time I um I was extremely like I loved learning so I was actually thinking I'm
00:12:31
going to if if I would have gone and I think this is sometimes how crazy stuff happens and then it changes sort of the
00:12:38
whole course of your whole life practically. So I think if if I would have gone from high school to
00:12:45
university, I I would would have just been in that sort of mode like of
00:12:50
learning being extremely good. So I guess I would have just went on with
00:12:55
what I was doing like meaning producing great academic outcome so to say. So then came this one year which I was
00:13:01
completely bored. So I I got these doctors um writing me letters that I
00:13:08
didn't need to show up but in return I started managing money for them because I was already speculating on the stock
00:13:14
market since I was like 15 16 and I was not bad in it. So I became friends with
00:13:19
all of these doctors even in the hospital I was working and they were all like well we help you if you help us
00:13:24
because this was the early days of the or not you know like this was 1998 1999 like this was the stock market boom
00:13:32
whatever. So everybody wanted to be in it. So this was sort of my trade-off for
00:13:37
these letters. Um and so and I can't be I'm I'm easily
00:13:43
bored. So I always want to do something. So practically because so I was not the type of person who was okay I have a
00:13:49
free year now and I'm going just partying like I was like okay I have a free year now I'm going to do more
00:13:54
tutoring. Yeah. And I'm going to do managing money for these doctors. Yeah. And sort of that completely switched my
00:14:02
how do you say course like so I wasn't this I actually wrote the book yeah and tried to sell that this didn't work out
00:14:08
but I did a lot of entrepreneurial stuff just because I had time. Yeah. And then when I practically went to uni then a
00:14:14
year later I was sort of mentally not anymore in that sort of learning world.
00:14:21
I was in the okay I want to be an entrepreneur world. And then I was and this sort of when I met we met uh
00:14:28
actually two guys who finally were my tutors in a scholarship I had had during
00:14:33
high school already like for sounds awkward but for highly gifted children. Yeah. So I was sort of in summer
00:14:41
summer school that was the university this where I knew them from. We rem kind of and they were telling me about this
00:14:46
idea and it just sounded great and they were like my tutors in terms of I was like okay these guys are the pinnacle of
00:14:54
biotech. Um and then I I was the one let's do a company together and u we did
00:15:00
and this worked out really well and then I dropped out of uni. So this how I think this how was this sort of I think
00:15:06
without this one year in hospital or sort of one year in hospital not in hospital. Yeah. I would have stayed in a
00:15:13
completely different path. I hear you talk a lot about you believe in like the serendipity
00:15:20
and spirituality which almost seems surprising because you're such like a scientific person whereas you do you do
00:15:27
believe that things happen at the right time. Totally totally actually I'm actually very extreme with that. So I everything which has happening literally everything
00:15:35
this conversation today well this conversation happens because we planned it yeah but like the fact for
00:15:41
example that we met originally yeah why mutual friend whatever so I'm always everything which is happening to me
00:15:47
which I didn't actively say hey I need to have a meeting like which is not in my usual rhythm yeah I always think a it's
00:15:56
happening for a reason and also it's happening for a good reason even bad stuff I believe even this power of
00:16:02
positive thinking but like more like people always then say ah this means like if you wake up in the morning you're if you feel great it's going to
00:16:09
be a great day I think it's more deeper I believe in this what there is this great book law of attraction like whatever you sort of think and rather
00:16:18
how you think not just meaning sort of the essence what you think not like the detail partly but more the essence and
00:16:24
if you expect sort of good stuff to happen you're sort of attracting that yeah you think there's a do you think there's a spiritual force that attracts it or do
00:16:30
you your intention moves you in that direction. So, look, I'm very pragmatic, meaning I I mean, first of all, I dare to talk
00:16:37
about this stuff because I'm very also scientific. So, I'm like, look, nobody will think I'm crazy. Yeah. Uh, maybe a
00:16:43
bit. No, no, I'm joking. Like, so, but the other thing is like there are multiple explanations and I don't really
00:16:49
care about the explanation. You can have a very spiritual explanation. Yeah. It's the force of the universe. Yeah. And
00:16:55
then you can have a very pragmatic explanation that if you continuously expect positive stuff, then you look out
00:17:01
for that stuff and then it's more like a a numbers game or like a Yeah. But and I
00:17:06
don't care like it it works tremendously well for me since I'm 16. Yeah. And I
00:17:12
had these I had some very crazy things which go borderline which you could
00:17:19
explain like sort of with statistics or whatever. Yeah. Um, so maybe too crazy
00:17:26
on the show for that, but but like but there were some there were some things where I tend to believe in the spiritual
00:17:32
explanation. Yeah, because they were Yeah, I think harder to explain or you
00:17:39
can always explain it with statistic like you know what I mean like but I don't care like it does work tremendously well for me.
00:17:45
Okay, so going back to this company you founded with these two your two sort of like university mentors. This company
00:17:51
went on to be really successful. I think you said it's worth probably about 15 billion at last check market cap
00:17:56
today but like I sold very early but very early I sold when we went public for a billion so it was it was one it
00:18:02
was actually pun do you regret selling well there's there's a short and long answer no because like the short answer
00:18:08
is no because like a that money was the basis for the rest yeah b also people
00:18:14
always mix up market cap and share price so meaning I sold at the lower share price that it's today but the share
00:18:20
price is not 15x X because they did capital increases, there was dilutive stuff like so, so anyway, long story, it
00:18:28
was an amazing start. Yeah. So, um, yeah, it was actually the quickest biotech IPO I think in Germany ever. Uh,
00:18:35
we IPOed 3 years, three and a half years later after foundation
00:18:40
and for a billion. So, it was was everything. Um, and it was sort of I dropped out of university before, but it
00:18:45
like was the sort of sort of catalyst catalyst I would say. Yeah. So, I I don't regret that. And uh and since then
00:18:52
sort of I'm investing and being an entrepreneur. I'm somewhat in between. I would say I actually sorry when I'm
00:18:58
jumping I had this one story again by the way which is completely you can
00:19:03
serendipitous serendipitous and like even a little bit more. So I remember it exactly. I was 14
00:19:09
years old and I was uh with my best friends back then in Munich which is far
00:19:15
away. I mean for me this was like going going to the big street like um and we
00:19:21
so we spent the weekend with family members. I mean I really I remember remember every single detail of the weekend like what we did and like where
00:19:28
what and we went to a bookstore which is for Germans who listen hook and dub is a
00:19:35
back then was like sort of like a I don't know iconic bookstore 100 years old in Munich I think it's still even
00:19:40
there although books are dying out um smaller um so it's in the prime location
00:19:45
of Munich and so I remember it so I go into that bookstore and there was these
00:19:51
whole how I say promot ocean wall. Yeah. With just one book
00:19:58
which uh which which is uh the American Think and Grow Rich from Napoleon Hill.
00:20:04
And do you know like when in movies like the 14-year-old boy goes in and then the light is coming down and then the
00:20:10
Hallelujah is coming. Sort of that meaning there was no music, there was no light. I was like that's it. Think and
00:20:16
grow rich. I need to have that book. So I bought the book and it was practically my first kind of I mean Napoleon Hill is
00:20:23
not as spiritual as some others. Yeah. But like that was my journey into that world of let's say spiritual infused
00:20:33
success books. How do you define spiritual? Well there is like Napoleon Hill is sort
00:20:39
of and I love it by the way because they're all so old like they're all out of the 1920s. So they they don't have
00:20:45
the zeitgeist which I think in terms of success is rather negative like so it's sort of like raw American
00:20:53
horny principles. Yes. Uh exactly like um and Napoleon Hill has this why he was a great entry
00:20:59
into that thing because his view was if you read many of the book starts that he says he got commissioned by um Andrew
00:21:07
Carnegie who was the steel magnet to find out and do interviews which I think by the way you are doing in a certain
00:21:13
way. Yeah. With successful people um and find out if there are common traits uh
00:21:20
you say traits yeah common denominators which make them successful. And he did that with all the famous people of his
00:21:26
time from Andrew Carnegie himself to a lot of other famous people. And then he made that into the book and he's
00:21:32
actually saying that the question he doesn't answer the question why these uh rules so to say
00:21:38
work. He's more a neutral observer. And then the next one is actually there's a guy called Dr. Joseph Murphy who wrote
00:21:45
similar books but more like with the spiritual undertone why these rules work. same rules sort of more
00:21:51
explanation why they work which went more into the religious world and then you have all the other book and law of
00:21:57
attraction is nothing else which is sort of the modern version and the key which is a sort of a simplified version of an
00:22:04
anyway simplified version yeah of this stuff like but it's at the end it's always the same rules some which think
00:22:10
it's they are god-given some which say look again this is statistics whatever but they do work I I deeply believe and
00:22:18
these things do Yeah. Um which is like visualization the the way you think.
00:22:24
It's visualization is that the the main thing I think is two things is visualization. So I meditate in the
00:22:30
morning and the evening but it's not real meditation. It's more like visualization. So I ex I always have a plan for the week for the months for the
00:22:36
year for my life. Yeah. And everything kind of did come true so far. So I'm
00:22:42
always thinking what could I add like a wish list. Yeah. And now again you can say if you add something and then you
00:22:48
you focused on it it might come true because you focused on it. There could be a very banal explanation that it's
00:22:53
relentless execution and nothing magic and again I don't care. It's like I'm like well like yeah it does work. So and
00:23:00
the visual I think it's the two things. It's visualization and it's also these that you have for example I'm not it
00:23:08
sounds very crazy but I'm trying to not have negative thoughts. So, and then there is a number of negative thoughts
00:23:14
you're going to have anyway because you have to deal with stuff when you run a business. But I, for example, I have
00:23:19
never watched a horror movie since 20 years at least because it gives me negativity. So I and I I go the extra
00:23:26
mile. So I told for example friends when they are too much complaining meaning I'm and the first one friends can call
00:23:32
for a problem but then I'm like let's go through the problem. That's the solution. That's what you're going to do. But if they would repeatedly because
00:23:39
some people want to not solve the problem. They want to repeat the problem. Then I'm like, you can't call me again on that topic because no
00:23:44
negativity. Yeah. So I really have a rule. Yeah. So no negative movies. I
00:23:50
never watch a movie which has no a happy ending. So I have people check or I check. Yeah. Before does it have a happy
00:23:56
ending? No bad endings. Nothing which makes me sad. Nothing which makes me negative. because I'm not I'm not
00:24:03
allowed in my own religious philosophy to have negative thoughts and feelings. Feelings are even more important than
00:24:09
thoughts because I think they are the underlying driver. So, and it sounds now maybe cheesy and simplified, but I think
00:24:16
if you this is what I'm doing since I'm 14 and if you train yourself not and again you will always have an sort of
00:24:24
amount because sometimes hard things happen. Yeah. And I don't want to pretend as if my life was easy because I
00:24:29
did have very hard times in business. But even in those times I was lying in my bed literally and was like okay this
00:24:36
is not fun what's happening right now but it must happen for a very very positive reason because this is how your
00:24:43
world works and funnily it always the worst things in my life turned into the
00:24:49
best ones. Yeah. So because I again and you can say now maybe somebody would say
00:24:55
well because he was persistent and he didn't fall. Okay then this is the explanation. Maybe there's a deeper one.
00:25:01
I don't again I don't care. I can always come to but I would tell everybody the two things emotionally is like don't
00:25:06
have negative thoughts. Just focus on positive sort of thoughts. Visualize
00:25:12
these are the key things. Be happy. so many things that you know and dare to be happy because most people
00:25:17
are again don't allow themselves to be happy and even think it's a little bit negative. So there's this whole thing
00:25:24
happening on Instagram that I want to come back to this point about this movies and cuz I think it's very much linked to your whole thing about alcohol
00:25:29
and stuff. This this happiness equilibrium you talk about, but just quickly on that point of being really
00:25:35
positive and unapologetically positive and saying, "Listen, don't call me with the same problem twice. Don't interrupt my positivity." There's this whole
00:25:41
movement happening on Instagram at the moment where there's such a thing as being toxic positive. It's called
00:25:47
[ __ ] Like no. And I like getting on this point like because that's one thing
00:25:52
I think I meaning again maybe so I have to so maybe I'm sitting there I'm
00:25:58
already so old that there is another generation I'm thinking about the other generation and because I'm reading a lot
00:26:03
like very old stuff and you find soc complaining about the youth. So maybe
00:26:09
that's a recurring thing. Yeah. But I really think part part of the millennial
00:26:14
culture of these victimization and always like blah is this is so wrong.
00:26:20
This is so wrong. Yeah. So to pretake a question because then normally we say well you saying that because you're
00:26:26
rich, you're white. Yeah. So I was like okay this is maybe a point. Let's go back because I didn't talk a lot about
00:26:32
it but I'm happy it's already like I grew up in these 90 people village. Yeah. I'm gay. I'm actually happily gay,
00:26:38
but I look meaning I know I'm I'm gay since I'm 11ish round about. So, and I
00:26:43
was looking at sort of that world I was growing up in and I was like that's not going to resonate here. Yeah. So,
00:26:49
seriously like and that's very very uh very uh positive phrased. Yeah. So, in
00:26:55
my school people were saying let's beat up gay people and I was like that's not going to end well. So, but I didn't
00:27:02
think that is anything bad by the way. I didn't even think these people were sort of wrong and obviously they were wrong but I was like they don't know better.
00:27:09
I'm not like ah these are bad people. I was just like be pragmatic. Sometimes life is not fair. Sometimes life is not
00:27:14
nice but you can decide if you react on it. That's one of the other points I really believe in that you have these
00:27:21
tiny millisecond in life on everything. If somebody is sort of rude to you, if
00:27:26
somebody says something very bad and you can decide if you hurt or not. It's your decision by the way. Nothing's gonna
00:27:32
hurt you if you decide you're not going to be hurt. Yeah. So, and I was like, they don't know better and I can't by
00:27:37
the way. And by the way, gay is not what defines me. So, I was like, well, then I'm I'm not gay for a while till I'm out
00:27:43
of here. Yeah. I can't because there are other things which define me like friends like you know like you know what
00:27:49
I mean? Like it's not that I reduced myself to this one thing and was like and now I need to shout it out to the
00:27:55
world and in return would have get beaten up. Like I was like just like just don't do it like but don't blame
00:28:01
the others. Yeah. And then move away somewhere. Also I I mean this whole like don't try to change everybody else. Work
00:28:08
on yourself and like and your environment what you can change. Like I could have started like oh my god my
00:28:13
life is miserable and I'm growing up in this village and blah blah blah. And actually talk about serendipity. I'm I'm
00:28:21
honestly I'm but again I'm trained to see the positive stuff. If I look back,
00:28:26
if I would have been straight, I wouldn't sit here for a very simple reason because I would have dated every
00:28:32
single free minute I would have had like Yeah. and would have enjoyed that. Yeah. So, but I couldn't. So, so what did I
00:28:40
do? I was working my ass off and learning all the time. So, and if I hadn't had the grades I had, I would
00:28:47
have ended the first money I had, I would have never met these guys with whom I started a biotech company. Yeah.
00:28:53
and nothing would have happened. I would have been an ordinary straight boy. Most likely smart. Yeah. But not uber smart
00:29:00
because sometimes it's smart and hard work to get grades. Yeah. It's not all falls and fun. So, so, so the
00:29:07
practically the if you say like the the ad, how do you say adversary or the negative thing being gain a very hostile
00:29:14
environment and not talking about it and focusing on other stuff completely made my life. Yeah. In a very positive way. I
00:29:21
I I would I mean Yeah. I I'm so happy that this was the case. Yeah. And again and everybody should look everybody has
00:29:28
um limitations and negative stuff but you should look at it and say they are
00:29:34
there for a very positive reason and something amazing will come out of it. I just need to have this continuous sort
00:29:41
of expectation and optimism and and you have a real sense of like personal responsibility
00:29:46
that comes across like you'll take responsibility for yourself and your actions but who else but it's like who else should woman or you know someone else.
00:29:54
We see that with the vaccine. Give the government a little bit of uh responsibility and it goes totally wrong. You don't want anybody be
00:30:01
responsible for you than yourself. So going to this point about the horror films which I thought was somewhat connected to what I've heard about your
00:30:07
rule with alcohol and cigarettes. You I hear you've never drunk before ever. You've never had a drink. Exactly. So there were two reasons for
00:30:13
it and they were connected. The one, again, by the way, the one reason was because I was actually thinking like if
00:30:20
I'm going to be drunk 14, 15, I'm going to spill out I'm gay and then it's over.
00:30:25
So, so my social life of being the darling of the school that day. Yeah. Exactly. No. And I was also like I
00:30:31
was very nerdy, so teachers loved me, but I was also how you say school speaker, speaker of the school, whatever. So, I was socially had a great
00:30:38
life. So, I was like, "No, let's not risk that." Like, no alcohol, you could say the wrong stuff. Yeah. So that was
00:30:45
the one thing and the other thing was that I always sort of because you do that as a child but in general and I
00:30:50
think it's a good thing like if you have one weakness in my case the weakness for the time was being gay the other you
00:30:56
build on your strengths which was like okay I think I'm kind of smart and also like smart in terms of learning smart I
00:31:02
learned very easy I always had the best grades yeah so I was I was sort of focusing on that so I was also like okay
00:31:08
alcohol could take that away from me uh because I thought it makes me dumb which by the way was yeah in a lot of amounts
00:31:16
I still wouldn't drink but so these were my childish reasons not to drink and then I just decided okay I think I have
00:31:23
the perfect equilibrium like uh being always happy having very good grades
00:31:28
everything was perfect so I was like I'm not going to touch any drug ever and you still haven't touched alcohol
00:31:33
cigarettes no so I have not I haven't drank alcohol I haven't smoked a cigarette ever I haven't smoked a joint ever I have not
00:31:39
take cocaine I haven't anything like no comment I did I did actually drink alco the first time when I was sorry echo sorry
00:31:45
right sorry coffee uh the first time when I was 28 so you avoided coffee as well I was even avoiding coffee and tea yeah
00:31:51
because it was a drug it was almost like the the very religious people so I would have been a good Mormon um so um but
00:31:58
then coffee I started drinking when I was 28 there's something crazy here where you think okay so the guy that doesn't want to upset his equilibrium goes on to be
00:32:05
the biggest psychedelics investor in the world which is all about I think there was a very good ground because what happened is so I had u a
00:32:12
discussion or a dinner. It wasn't a discussion. It was like a dinner discussion like we were set somebody sat
00:32:18
us next to each other with funnily the joke and said, "Oh, you the guy was a
00:32:23
very or is a very famous um drug researcher like he's the David Nut of Germany like the a drug uh yeah adviser
00:32:31
to the government and yeah a neuroscientist and somebody said, "Oh, you should two should sit next to each
00:32:37
other because maybe you can loosen Christian up a bit and he could drink a little bit of alcohol." So, so this is
00:32:42
how I met Rhino on his name again. Ex. No, but like exactly like again by
00:32:48
but everybody else would have said I remember that I was like oh my god that's awesome like and everybody else
00:32:53
would have said well I again and every single thing happening I see it's good
00:32:58
for me. Yeah. So um so anyway so we had this discussion and I think the short
00:33:04
version is he was like look everything you think is bad is bad like so don't
00:33:09
touch it. Exactly. He actually showed me these and uh whoever is watching and
00:33:14
maybe I don't know if you can put it into the the like Yeah. So like this this famous very famous but it's so um
00:33:21
to the point meaning he's David Nut in the UK wrote a whole book about the misperception of drugs but this one like
00:33:28
he had this one chart which David not made and Rhina pulled it pulled it off
00:33:33
in the internet where you can see sort of the harm um of each drug.
00:33:38
Yeah. So how much harm there was this harm scale and Bradley on number one is alcohol even in a in a holistic approach
00:33:45
alcohol is the worst and then closely followed by heroin which by the way the media used a little
00:33:51
bit against David Nut which was highly unfair because the headline I remember I think in the sun or whatever was like oh
00:33:57
guy says heroin is better than alcohol. No the thing is like they're both very very bad like but alcohol is as well. We
00:34:03
have these and this is the chart that says the harm to you and the harm to others both. It's it's it's in one. So yeah, a
00:34:10
chart that shows the harm that these different drugs have on you and others and alcohol is the worst. Exactly. Always the worst, but closely
00:34:16
followed by heroine. Yeah. And closely followed by um crystal math or whatever. Like everything is bad. And I really
00:34:22
like if there is one positive outcome of people watching that don't do it. But don't do alcohol, don't do heroin, don't
00:34:28
do crystal mask, don't nothing. No, there is no by the way and I'm the most again pragmatic person because what I
00:34:34
was talking with him was like is there any drug there could be a drug where you say oh it has a little bit of downside
00:34:41
but it has enormous upside and then you can think for yourself again you are
00:34:46
responsible I don't think the government should be responsible to think for myself is there any upside of me taking
00:34:53
that risk because if I go in a car I came to you in a car so I took a risk of dying meaning very low But there was a
00:35:00
risk. But I was it's worth to sit with Stephen and do their podcast. Like no, but everything we do in life, by the
00:35:07
way, people should look at it's like a risk return. Yeah. So maybe somebody says, "Oh, if I smoke a joint once in a
00:35:13
while, it makes me so relaxed." Anyway, but you should be aware of the risks. And I think people aren't, especially
00:35:18
not with alcohol. Yeah. And if you then still decide actively, I'm going to enjoy my glass of wine, then I think it's great, but you should know it
00:35:24
anyway. So, but at the end of that scale it said um
00:35:30
um probably at the very end is mushrooms, magic mushrooms and before the very end is the second sort of
00:35:36
easiest or second lowest risk is is LSD. Practically the psychedelic group of uh
00:35:41
of drug and he was like Christian like I can't tell you what my host told me to tell you that you should try alcohol.
00:35:48
Don't meaning I can also tell you're not going to die but like don't do it. Yeah. uh but you should do actually magic
00:35:55
mushrooms. And I was like, "Look, you're clearly insane. Like I'm I've never drank alcohol and I'm not going to touch
00:36:01
an illegal drug." Yeah. And he was very very uh
00:36:06
persuasive because he was like, "Look, first of all, you do biotech. You started your career in biotech. Like I
00:36:12
send you um I send you all the research I did or I do." But also, which was very
00:36:18
cool, hindsight. I didn't even value it back then. He was like, I did my PhD
00:36:24
with famous Hoffman who invented LSD. So, so Ret was replucked into like the
00:36:29
old guard of psychedelic luminaries. And he was like, I sent you all what what he
00:36:34
did like read it because there were all these studies. It's not like an crazy idea meaning again actually magic
00:36:41
mushrooms or the ingredient pseudocybin was used as an approved medical drug in
00:36:46
the 50s by sandals actually very uh at least in Germany famous um um brand um
00:36:54
for for depression he was like look it was medical it has no risk as you can see I tell you as in the older studies
00:37:00
at least read it and again I'm very curious I was like well send me I'm so
00:37:06
that was actually against serendipity and so and now comes the biggest serendipity because like so for one year
00:37:11
I was just like not meaning it's not that I had it on my mind every day I was it was there like I read a little bit
00:37:18
here and by the way again I know a there's even a book about that but which says what some people believe is destiny
00:37:25
is just like if you aware of a theme yeah it's a little bit like when I tell you don't think of the blue elephant or
00:37:32
the white whatever you think of it like so there is this one book I can't remember the name which again would be
00:37:37
fine for me like because again it works was like if you are aware of a thing of a theme then it pops up everywhere.
00:37:44
Yeah. So over a year there were not a lot because it was completely not in the public domain but like there were once
00:37:51
here and there I was like okay read something again whatever and then more or less exactly one year later I was
00:37:58
with my best friends who actually have a steak in a tie so they're happy with my best friends in
00:38:04
the Caribbean. Uh, so disclaimer, it was a place u where where it's legal. Um,
00:38:11
and they had magic mushrooms and they had it like it looked like mushrooms. Like this was good because I I'm so
00:38:18
hypocchondric and frightened of everything. So I would never have taken anything which didn't look like
00:38:23
mushrooms. So these were dried mushrooms. Like so I was like see from the ground. Yeah. I was like, "Okay, that looks
00:38:29
real." Like and they were like and I trust them. They're my best friends. Yeah. So big shout out to Landon and
00:38:34
Julian. Yeah. So I trust them anyway. They were like, "Look, we grew it ourselves." So like safe. We know what
00:38:40
we're doing. Yeah. Um and I was like actually calling Rhina and
00:38:45
the guy you'd met in Germany. Yes. So I'm not mentioning his last name because I don't know if he he works
00:38:50
still in a very famous job. Uh and I he was actually saying the sentence, look, as your doctor friend do it. It's the
00:38:58
best place, best people. You know it's real. Setting everything is perfect. do it.
00:39:04
So, so I took all my courage I had. Um, I was really like and it's it sounds now
00:39:10
I can't say how nervous I was in sort of both anxious and positive like it was
00:39:16
like really not maybe people say, "Oh, he's talking about magic all the time. It must have been an easy decision." It was not. Yeah. For days and I was like,
00:39:23
"Okay, let's do it." I still know exactly the point on the beach. Yeah. Uh because we're going there every Easter
00:39:28
and somewhere I'm going to put a big magic mushroom statue here. Uh I really will. I really will. I know the guys who
00:39:34
own the island. So I Yeah, they already know of it. Actually, the guy who owns the island is now a shareholder at Tai as well. So everybody is literally
00:39:42
everybody. So um so I did it and it was the single most meaningful thing. Full
00:39:48
stop. And by the way, it confirmed everything I just said. So because what a lot of people report is that um that
00:39:57
um you it's a very spiritual experience and in that case it was not just a spiritual
00:40:04
experience but it really confirmed 100% my fuel in life which is by the way
00:40:09
interesting because if we look now at people because a lot of people ask me
00:40:14
especially successful people they're like oh I've read somebody takes it and then he's want to be a farmer in Brazil.
00:40:21
by the way, which was my biggest fear. My biggest fear was like, I'm going to come out of that and I'm going to change my whole life because I realize that I
00:40:29
don't know, I want to do something else. Hindsight, I tell everybody that look at me and look at others. We have both. We
00:40:36
have people like me who come out are very even more happy. But it for me it was a very big confirmation of what I'm
00:40:44
doing. Yeah. Um because um Yeah. I don't mean not because like it was a
00:40:50
confirmation like okay you see the world in the right way everything what you do how you do you can work on it so I got a
00:40:57
lot of ideas how to make it better but like sort of the message was you're on the right path so some other people come
00:41:04
out and the message is look you have to do something completely what is why is it different it's actually the same what
00:41:11
it does I think one sort of how you say one description of of psychedelics is in
00:41:18
general they you realize or you um you recognize
00:41:24
yourself and all your sort of positive and all your dreams all your trauma and
00:41:30
everybody has a bit of trauma must not be a real so everything and then and some people and then I was always
00:41:36
hindsight I can say now I was right like I or I was right I I I was good in it I
00:41:42
was always living a very honest life to myself again doesn't mean that I say hey I decided for example not to tell
00:41:48
anybody I'm gay. But that's not from my point of view, this was not a lie because it's my decision. But it was not a lie to myself. Yeah. It was an active
00:41:55
decision to just make my life suppressing it. It was not suppressing it. I was just like pragmatically. Yeah.
00:42:01
By the way, it was also very simple. There was also nobody to date. I was very simple like no. Exactly. Risk risk
00:42:06
return. There was no upside because there was nobody who would have appreciated that. Yeah. And if there
00:42:12
would have been a hot guy and I was like he's gay, I'm gay. I was like, hey, immediately like but there was no upside. but a lot of downside. Anyway,
00:42:19
but what I'm saying is like I always lived a very honest life um to myself. Yeah. Again, this doesn't mean you have
00:42:24
to shout everything out and this was confirmed. So other people who don't live an honest life to themsel and lie
00:42:30
to themsel and maybe tell themselves that they are happy with XY Z, they
00:42:36
might realize on a magic motion trip that they're not like they need and this is the other people who change. Yeah. But so it's very dependent on Yeah. But
00:42:44
it was just one aspect of so many positive aspects and then sort of I
00:42:50
immediately after the trip had sort of the idea okay this should be actually legal. I was actually not even the first
00:42:57
impetus was not that I should make a company because I was very sure people must work on that stuff because it's so
00:43:04
powerful and when I then found out actually it took me two years I was looking around like that there was none
00:43:12
then we did it ourselves. Just to go back to that point though you you you categorize that moment your
00:43:17
first trip as the single most meaningful experience of your life. Yeah. today full stop nothing comes
00:43:23
close and maybe I would add plus the follow on trips over the last year so it's not
00:43:29
just this one trip I would say as well but I would I would I would summarize my
00:43:35
psychedelic experience and I still like try to do a trip once or twice a year in a country where it's legal yeah I would
00:43:42
summarize as the most meaningful sort of holistic experience I've had in my life
00:43:48
full yeah for sure like you do this trip um on the beach with your friends, you you think to yourself,
00:43:54
you know, this must be legal. Fast forward, you get a call from one of your friends called Mike. No, it's way No, it's way crazier. It's
00:44:02
way crazier. Again, super serendipity. So, fast forward for 2 years, I was very
00:44:07
very carefully looking around and actually not telling a lot of people about it, which was wrong. And if I
00:44:14
would have gone on like that, I wouldn't sit here again. Meaning, at least not now. I would sit here. maybe
00:44:20
but like not talking about mushrooms or my psychedelics. So for two years I was kind of extremely holding back. So I
00:44:26
told my closest friends actually the ones who knew me very well
00:44:31
saw that or positive like my parents were like hey you became an even nicer child. We have an amazing relationship
00:44:37
but it became even better. So my mom was very quickly saying something happened in your holiday. Yeah. Yeah. So, so um
00:44:44
so, so the ones who knew me well, but like I didn't shout it out and I was actually very very
00:44:50
careful and shy because it's like technically Yeah. And back then, by the way, let's not forget like we're talking
00:44:56
about it also now so easily because all the books came out, we have the success like compasses listed like
00:45:03
now is completely different than so anyway. So for two years I was very like lowkey. Yeah. And then I had be and
00:45:11
again this is like maybe the biggest financial serendipity uh or like message of the universe if you want to see it
00:45:17
like that because for two years I was sort of like just telling friends very close friends and then I had u one other
00:45:26
trip within a holiday trip. The main message on that trip was Christian this
00:45:31
makes you so happy you have to talk to other people about this don't be shy
00:45:37
just good thing will come out things will come out if you talk about it so I had a real mission so I got this real
00:45:42
mission on that trip to sort of be open about it and then actually from that
00:45:48
holiday I was flying literally the week after I met a very close friend and
00:45:54
business partner of mine Mike Novagrat um who's big in finance and like huge
00:45:59
huge. Yeah. So, but he's he's not what I want to say he's not the guy who would talk about mushrooms normally and I wouldn't
00:46:05
have had but he was my test case because I had the mission. The mission was don't be afraid talk about me because it's
00:46:12
going to be good for you and the world. So, I met Mike and he literally Mike is always like that. What's up? Because I
00:46:18
think I do cool stuff like from other stuff. So, a lot of friends are always like, "Hey, what's new? What's up? What
00:46:24
you investing in?" I was like, "Mike, you won't believe it. I just had a mushroom trip and this was amazing and I
00:46:31
want to talk tell you about it and he was like this wa mushroom like I I remember Mike said the the sentence like
00:46:37
he hasn't talked about it hadn't back then for like 20 years because especially in the US a lot of people
00:46:42
it's like a college thing like party was like 20 years never heard about it
00:46:48
again since college so I told him all of my experience on that trip um and in
00:46:54
general or so and he was like very interested did. Yeah. And so the next day, literally the next day, my phone
00:47:00
rings. Mike is on it and actually he said it. Yeah. He said, "Look, Christian, this is the weirdest
00:47:05
coincidence." So since 20 years or I haven't talked about psychedelics for 20
00:47:11
years. Yesterday you were in my office talking about nothing else than psychedelics. And this morning, my
00:47:17
sister or sister, his sister called him. So my sister called me and she's on Bali
00:47:23
with these crazy couple from London who told her they want to start a company
00:47:28
which is working on bringing magic mushrooms back in the legal realm and they need somebody who's financing them
00:47:33
and nobody wants to touch it. And I was like this is this is such a coincidence. You in London they in London like Yeah.
00:47:40
And these are George and Katya the founders of of Compass. Yeah. And I was like connect me immediately. And I
00:47:46
remember this was January and then we met when I was back and they were back from Bali in February um 201.
00:47:55
Yeah. And I they tell if we talk about like within the meeting I was like okay we going we're going to do that
00:48:00
together. That's that's what I've waited for since 2 years. And again if I hadn't taken the decision to openly talk about
00:48:08
it um I wouldn't have told Mike. I wouldn't have met George and Katya. We wouldn't sit here at least not sit here
00:48:14
talking about this one. And the magic mushrooms were the thing that told you to talk about it. That's right. And you you end up being, you know, the
00:48:20
single biggest investor in the space, a space which is now really sort of main becoming more mainstream at an alarming
00:48:27
rate. A sort of a category that's exploded from a financial perspective. Um, and you've you've you've co-ounded
00:48:34
and invested in two the two biggest sort of companies in this area and Compass Pathways.
00:48:39
Exactly. So practically I co-founded both in compass I was more the seed investor because it was George's and
00:48:44
Katya's idea and I added actually a very close friend of mine Lars as the third co-founder and I was the seed investor
00:48:50
but sort of I was there even before the company existed we were sitting in my in my living room and
00:48:56
planning it and then when I realized how positive or it was actually easier is
00:49:04
the wrong word but it was sort of I had I had expected more
00:49:11
hurdles. Yeah. And it's maybe sadly actually the time which is helping us
00:49:16
because there are so many people suffering and it becomes sort of also financially sometimes life is very the
00:49:22
world functions very pragmatic like in the in the moment something becomes a big crisis also financially. Yeah. The
00:49:29
yeah regulator. So anyway whatever it was it was the right time. So, Compass
00:49:35
quickly actually got FDA um fast track designation which was a
00:49:40
big thing stuff like that. So, and then I actually realized oh there are more psychedelics out there than meaning
00:49:46
everybody's always almost using magic mushrooms and psychedelics as the same but like we have the headline
00:49:52
psychedelics a group of drugs and psilocybin the active ingredient in magic mushrooms is one of them. So there
00:49:58
are more of them from MDMA to LSD, ketamine, ibukane, whatever. And and
00:50:04
compass wanted always to focus on um on psilocybin. So I was like, okay, then
00:50:10
I'm starting a Thai as sort of a platform where we actually bring on more
00:50:17
more of these compounds to explore them for mental health issues. Of all the compounds in a Thai, and I
00:50:23
know there's a lot of them, right? I think you've got over 13 compounds, different psychedelic compounds within a tie. Um, we've talked a lot about magic
00:50:30
mushrooms and that the active compound in magic mushrooms for anybody that doesn't know is psilocybin, which is what compass pathway does. Of all the
00:50:37
others, and I know this is like I've heard you say before, this is like choosing your favorite child. Which ones of the psychedelic compounds is
00:50:43
incredibly compelling to you and really stands out is being able to have a really significant impact?
00:50:49
That's really hard to say. I really I really mean it because like it really meaning because they all have all all
00:50:56
compounds we work on have a sort of reason to exist or positive like
00:51:03
have a have a place in treating mental health issues hopefully. Tell me about ibain then. Yeah. So so then now what I want is the
00:51:10
question is what is your what does somebody sees as the biggest
00:51:16
problem? or name me the problem you think is the worst and then I tell you sort of which drug is the best like kind
00:51:21
of so so so I think I gain is this is is interesting because also
00:51:27
because I gain goes against addiction and there is actually almost nothing
00:51:32
else which works for addiction so addiction we talk about here severe addiction like especially to opioids and
00:51:38
heroin is sort of I don't know if you can say it on English really [ __ ] up like it's like that's one of the really
00:51:45
severe mental stuff like where most people have um how do you call it like um relapse relapse like and then it's
00:51:54
also one of these sort of things if you look at I don't know families and friends where somebody is addicted sort
00:52:00
of it's very like it's like cancer in in in in the social environment so it's sort of
00:52:05
it's it's but or I would even say any mental health is like it's always affecting others as well but I think
00:52:11
addiction sort of stands out in a certain way and I gain is the only drug we know which potentially I always have
00:52:18
to say with all these drugs potentially because we are about to prove it once and for all with scientific terms or
00:52:24
with scientific framework FDA sort of compliant but I gain the potential to
00:52:30
really cure addiction with one trip. Yeah. And that would be a massive game changer for the whole opioid crisis. Uh
00:52:37
but even alcohol addiction like it's not just opio like Yeah. And Yeah. you know, you're trying to you're trying to make
00:52:43
people's lives better, right? You're trying to get them. It almost seems like, you know, because you've you've been gifted enough to be happy your
00:52:49
whole life. You you're doing a lot to make sure other people can be happy on one end. But the other thing that you're doing, which also kind of blew my mind
00:52:55
when I met you, is trying to extend life. You know, you've got Elon who's like trying to save life on Earth, but
00:53:01
also take us to a new one. And it seems like, you know, Apiron, your investment company is trying to make the life we
00:53:06
live more joyous and fulfilled, but also trying to extend it. and the work you're doing with life longevity I actually
00:53:14
find maybe even more bonkers. Like when I first heard about
00:53:21
psychedelics I was like really and then I spent 6 months 9 months learning and I was like oh my god like I get it but
00:53:27
life longevity for me is like really we can really we can really extend our lives and you you've got companies which
00:53:33
are working on that challenge. So tell me about life longevity. Is it possible?
00:53:39
I well okay let's so so so let's phrase it correctly like because even I if I
00:53:46
want to sort of some say something very um pokey I'm like oh we're going to live forever yeah that's not going to happen
00:53:52
for an accident reason yes you could say maybe we live forever if we really upload our brain to our computer but
00:53:59
that not that I think that's completely impossible but I think then we're not human anymore that's a different
00:54:05
discussion like so but I would say as long as we stay fairly human, meaning
00:54:12
having a body, having sort of the human setup we have.
00:54:17
Yeah. There will always be an end. Let's start there because the worst case if you live hundreds of years, you're going
00:54:22
to have an accident somewhere and somebody blows you up. You have a By the way, it's going to as a side note, I
00:54:29
think it's going to change once we get older and older. It's going to change the way how we look at risk because I
00:54:36
already start avoiding crazy stuff because I'm like it's not worth it. Again, risk return. Like I have this one
00:54:43
colleague I always try to convince he's 50 and he drives a motorbike and I'm like you shouldn't do it. Like the sort
00:54:49
of statistical risk is so big of driving a motorbike. And his answer is well because he's still thinking his his life
00:54:54
expectancy is 70. He's like, "Well, but I'm exchanging 20 years if it happens
00:54:59
against my biggest passion, and this is a trade-off worth it." And I was like, "Well, a it's already stupid. But if you
00:55:06
if you It's okay if this is your opinion, 20 years against the risk of losing it. But I tell you like it's not
00:55:13
20. You already if you're 50, I'm going to get you up or we going to get you up with longevity science to maybe 90 or
00:55:18
100 by the way, in a good way. So would you exchange 50?" And then suddenly you see okay then he starts thinking because
00:55:24
so and now think it a little bit further like if you say hey our natural life experience someone will be 200 maybe we
00:55:32
stop doing stuff we're doing now because it could sort of yeah so but you know back to your question like longevity
00:55:38
never means immortality because again as long as we stay kind of human because there's an accident risk uh by the way I
00:55:45
also believe spiritually again that we don't want to live forever I I think
00:55:51
part of being human again as long as we stay that and we can talk about that as well because it's another thing I'm thinking a lot maybe we don't stay human
00:55:58
in our current form but as long so I think to part of being human is having
00:56:04
an end because that makes everything we do so I just don't want it now like I want to
00:56:10
have more of it but I think the the sort of the li that there is a time limit on being human is actually which makes us
00:56:16
thrive yeah and which makes us everything special everything special. So I don't think I
00:56:22
want to take that away. I just want to extend the joy. Yeah. Then doesn't it just become relative
00:56:27
again then? So if you live to 150 but wait so so what I really believe what we get in the next
00:56:35
maybe like 30 20 to 30. It's come it's I think it's going to come way quicker than people
00:56:42
think is that we're going to get life expectancy up to to a time or to a to a to a to a size
00:56:50
to a magnitude where we want to die. And I think it's even like this will be a range and some people might already say
00:56:58
100 I had it all. I had enough birthdays, enough Christmases and so
00:57:04
some people want to maybe live to 300. But I think we going to give people that optionality sooner than we think. And
00:57:10
then I think dying will be like this is my vision like it's a celebration. I would someone say look guys I had it
00:57:16
all. I love you love life but I really think I'm ready for whatever comes. Maybe comes nothing. I don't know but
00:57:22
like I have an expectation but like yeah but whatever it is I'm going to finish it now. Throw a big party. Say goodbye
00:57:28
to everybody and then go out on my own terms on my own time. I think that's going to be sooner than we think.
00:57:36
You whispered that I have an expectation. Well, I think there is another life. Like I think it's a continuous uh cycle.
00:57:42
But that's not a spiritual question like but like I I very much believe we have an eternal soul. Yeah. I don't even
00:57:47
think there is a number. But first of all I again I come back which gives me a lot of thing. I don't believe in the Christian thing that we have anything to
00:57:54
prove. That's already starts because it means you're not worthy and you have to prove yourself worthy. It's like you I
00:58:01
think everybody should be deeply happy and do exactly what he he or she feels is the right thing to do. No, by the
00:58:07
way, again, this is I think what people realize on the on the psychedelics is like they I always like to say like
00:58:14
which is maybe a good way to describe a psychedelic trip like since we're young
00:58:19
and again maybe my parents were like better than other parents in avoiding that but since we're baby people start
00:58:26
telling us what we should do what we should not do how we should be how we
00:58:32
should think how we should and I always say like there is your soul somewhere like what form of your soul is like but
00:58:39
there is somewhere the level of you you and again the problem is when we have this discussion what I want to avoid why
00:58:44
I'm sometimes so blurry is that if you start using religious terms then some people might be set off yeah or pushed
00:58:52
away because if I use the word soul or god then uh a Christian person might
00:58:57
have a different reaction than a Muslim person than a um than a Hindu person yeah interestingly a lot of people who
00:59:05
went through psychedelics have sort of the same description because so so anyways it's by trying to use as neutral
00:59:11
worlds as possible. So let's call it soul or inner you or whatever and then you have all these sort of external
00:59:19
sort of um garbage almost what other people put on you. Yeah. And and I think
00:59:26
some people literally lose sight what they really are and want. So and I
00:59:33
actually was always very good. So what I realized under my trip that sort of so what happens under a trip sort of all
00:59:38
this garbage is taken away. So you really look at you but you and your real naked sort of
00:59:47
form like form I mean like you recognize yourself all your fears all your wishes
00:59:54
all your whatever. Yeah. And interestingly it was for me it was still a great experience but it was not so
01:00:00
different. So which told me okay I did a good job before psychedelics to sort of be again true to
01:00:08
myself and I I don't believe in what what some faith say that that oh you have to be worthy because you are worthy
01:00:15
yeah and you are great you just should live the life as sort of it is fit for
01:00:21
you and again this is for everybody it's different but you need to know it yeah so so but to so this is my belief and
01:00:26
then so and so so there is no okay I have it's not like a computer game where you have to reach a level and do certain
01:00:34
things and then come to the next one. I just think it's like an endless positive sort of cycle of experiences. Yeah. So,
01:00:41
and I'm definitely know that somewhere and I'm going to want to go to to the next level is the wrong word to the next
01:00:48
experience. Yeah. Um but for now I want to actually extend this one. A lot of people don't get to live and
01:00:54
this is what I was thinking is like this this idea that people will get to a point in their life where they say you know what I've had enough. This has been
01:01:00
great. I would you do you genuinely believe you'll get to a point where maybe 150 whatever where you think
01:01:06
I think some it's going to happen like I maybe it's very late meaning I hope but again I think this is the ultimate
01:01:12
meaning I'm already pissed about the government interfering in in my stuff in any way but the biggest interference is
01:01:18
death it's not my I don't choose the time I don't choose like and we need to change that so I think the biggest sort
01:01:25
of liberty everybody has will be choosing his or her own Yes, but you'll
01:01:31
always be curious. The world will always be changing. There'll always be go on like a long time. I I I I I'm trying to understand if I if
01:01:37
I genuinely believe that Christian will ever get to a point where he's bored because you're such a curious but it's
01:01:42
great if that is the case. I really don't know like meaning but I'm just saying I believe like again I think
01:01:48
there is a moment everybody will come to that. Maybe it's very very great. Like I'm working on it. Like
01:01:54
And you don't think death is a n is a especially that age is like a natural
01:01:59
thing? I hear you talking about it as a as a bug or as a disease or something. Well, that that's I would say definitely
01:02:07
aging is a disease. Something is wrong. So something is I know how the
01:02:13
20-year-old Christian looked and was and felt. And by the way, my DNA is the same
01:02:21
like it was when I was born, like it was when I was 20, like it's now, but something of the same DNA. It's like a
01:02:27
little bit we know how the house it's the construction plan of the house is the same. And some
01:02:34
the sort of minions who who translate the construction plan into the building.
01:02:40
Yeah. Change it and not to the better from age 20 on like I get gray hair,
01:02:46
whatever. Like so but we know still it is there like the original source of information is there our DNA. So we just
01:02:54
need to find out it is super simplified what changes the translation of our DNA
01:03:01
into mistakes and into what we call aging. Yeah that's a very simplified view but it shows you that it's not so
01:03:07
natural. Yeah because it's not that your DNA is if if it would be natural maybe your DNA would change. You would say we
01:03:13
can't change that. Yeah. But it's not like your DNA is the same till you die. Like so we just need to make sure that
01:03:19
the translation happens like when you were 20. So by the way I deeply believe not just that we can slow down and stop
01:03:24
aging, we can reverse it because again I know how Steven many you are still obviously at your prime. Yeah,
01:03:29
but I know how Christian in his primes looked like and yeah, you know what I
01:03:35
mean? Yeah. And we can bring it back. So some some Yeah. going to say some animals live for a couple of days
01:03:40
though. So I I take like I look at take an evolutionary perspective on this and think like you know there's some like flies that live for like 4 days but it's
01:03:46
enough time. Maybe we are there at the moment to escape the evolutionary velocity. Maybe that's the pinnacle where we sort of
01:03:53
start becoming and I know because I don't mean it like in a placeic way. I think we meant to be like gods in our
01:03:59
own way. Yeah. And we start now to go to the sort of source and construction of
01:04:05
life ourselves. And I think that's an enormously curious thing. And like Yeah. Maybe that's what we meant to be. I'm
01:04:10
rather on the positive side. This is not blasphemy or whatever, but this is like what God set us up for, so to say. By
01:04:17
the way, every single religion, it's a very fun. Nobody ever I don't say I
01:04:22
love, by the way, uh and you know, we can't say today that there is a big thing coming out about religion and and
01:04:28
science of religion, but I always love that I'm always was finally drawn to the mystical side and the religious side.
01:04:35
And aside of what we discussed on let's what I call spiritual side I was always always very interested in the history of
01:04:40
religions. Um and interestingly a one sad actually
01:04:45
happy and sad observation is that in the very core all religions are the same. They all preach the same good stuff. Be
01:04:52
nice be nice to others and then once they become an organization the [ __ ] starts. Yeah. So and uh and also one
01:05:01
what most religions have just going through but mo yeah literally most religions have the big ones is that they
01:05:08
at the very beginning say that we are a part and a mirror or is the English term
01:05:14
that we are an image of God and we don't talk about that because now everybody's like oh if you if you want
01:05:20
to live forever well what a lot of people again if you want to defy aging and there are a lot of people oh you
01:05:25
want to play god yeah this is sort of the the rebuttals the real and I was like but maybe that's what we meant to be
01:05:31
because if I go to the Bible it says we are the image of God so maybe we are
01:05:37
meant to play God because that's what we are in in a philosophical way so I don't think it's not e ethically at all I
01:05:43
think it's the ultimate actually challenge we have to solve yeah um
01:05:48
the other rebuttal I would I thought the first time I heard about the the possibility of extending life was that
01:05:54
you know we'd have a really aging population where we'd all So, it's interesting you talk about reversing
01:05:59
aging, but we'd all be 170 and slightly like, you know, slow. It doesn't make any It doesn't make
01:06:04
medically or sense we won't be 150 and super old. It doesn't make sense. You
01:06:09
can't extend lifespan that much without rejuvenation. It comes at this. Thanks, God. And nobody wants to be like because
01:06:17
by the way, that's what most people fear though. Why they It's interesting how
01:06:22
many people reject the idea of living very long. I don't know if living very long but the one of the very bal reasons
01:06:29
is that they automatically think okay if Christian would succeed in making us
01:06:35
live till 150 they take okay I know a 90-year-old granny from of mine and
01:06:40
she's not in good shape and now they add another 60 years and they're like no that's not what I want but that's exact
01:06:46
but that's not what's going to happen in the moment we can push life expectancy way further than 90 it it goes hand
01:06:54
inhand with rejuvenation And then more people want it. And what time frame do you expect?
01:07:00
I think we're going to see step really really tangible steps
01:07:05
forward the next 20 years. Yeah. And then let's say 20 to 40 later by the way
01:07:12
which is not that far. Yeah. And um and also um the um this going to change
01:07:19
society meaning everything. And interestingly, every politician I talk to thinks like, well, that's far away.
01:07:25
And I was like, no, it's not it's not that so far away than you think. And like this going to affect us sooner and
01:07:31
we need to talk about it about about social systems, about anything. Yeah. Uh this going to be one of the massive
01:07:38
black but I not a negative way by the way. I think it's going to be good, but like I'm an eternal optimist. Like um but like in a it will be a massive
01:07:45
change for the world. Let me drink this delicious drink.
01:07:52
What's it called? I put it like in a commercial in the We
01:07:58
should like leave that in. It's like hopefully it's better. H fuel. Yeah. Yeah. Human fuel.
01:08:04
Human fuel. Okay. It's a very good name. Yeah, it's a very good name. Who came up with that name? Julian Han.
01:08:09
Oh yeah. Um, so switching because in fact the
01:08:15
topic the topics of conversation we've discussed are super interesting but personally the things that I find most
01:08:20
fascinating about you are you're just like ridiculous ridiculous work ethic
01:08:27
and I've talked to some of your friends. I spoke to Aaron. I spoke to people around you just to confirm what I
01:08:32
thought and the intensity and the amount you work I think is just like staggering. I think I'm really
01:08:38
hardworking. I've seen you in action around the clock over the weekend. The fact that we're doing this on a
01:08:43
Saturday. I don't normally record the podcast and say it's a hobby. It's like it's like having fun. It's not like work, but okay. I
01:08:48
know it. Yeah. My point is about, you know, in culture, people talk about this term work life balance. And I think you've kind of responded to it there.
01:08:54
Very easy. There shouldn't be a work life balance. There should just be one continuous hobby. That's my view on it.
01:09:00
People should love what they do in a way. Obviously, you do different things and I love more things. So, but like
01:09:06
there I I always said since I'm 16 or actually 14 since I have my tutoring, if
01:09:12
I would call it work life balance then I have a shitty life because it's just work but my work is my life and I love
01:09:19
it and it's integrated and most of my friends I work with and like even like
01:09:25
friends who didn't this is how I came to the movie business because just like I had friends who were actors and were in a movie business and then I was like
01:09:31
maybe we should work together maybe we should finance a movie like it's like Yeah, I don't want to see it as a
01:09:37
separation. Separation. Quick one. Starting from the minute the lockdown is lifted, we're going to start
01:09:42
bringing in some of our subscribers to watch how this podcast is produced behind the scenes. Means you get to meet the guests, meet myself, and see how we
01:09:48
put all of this together. If you want that to be you, all you've got to do hit the subscribe button. Let's talk about
01:09:54
more personal things. So, relationships. How does someone who works as hard as you find any I'm I'm presuming you value
01:10:02
what relationships can bring you? Well, complicated topic is work in progress
01:10:07
like welcome to the podcast the diary. Oh no it's like uh no that that's work
01:10:14
in progress. So that's like uh because obviously like I'm so much in love with my work that um that it's always it's
01:10:21
hard I think for another person although I think I can try to be very uplifting because I would try say the same what I
01:10:30
told you is like I would tell every partner like you have to find you can't expect from me to get give you meaning
01:10:36
you need to give yourself meaning and then we can be happy together yeah but I this is unfortunately not how a lot of people work like so it's very easy that
01:10:43
sort I have a quote on Instagram, my best performing quote ever. It says, um, "If
01:10:49
we're dating, I want to be your second priority. I want your first priority to be you, your passions, your future. If we're happy alone, we'll be happier
01:10:55
together." Yeah, that's so Yeah. And I'm happy alone, by the way. Yeah. I I'm also like an introvert extrovert, so
01:11:01
people think I'm very extrovert, and I can be and I want to be like can I like to host parties and dinners and do
01:11:08
things like that, but then I want to be alone actually a lot. So, do you value
01:11:14
and tell me the value of a relationship in your view of like a really good
01:11:19
committed relationship? Do you value it? That's a complicated, right? So, um
01:11:25
because because if I say no, it sounds brutal and I don't No, no. And I don't
01:11:30
mean it like I I I think it's more the answer is more complicated. So
01:11:36
I build myself that I that I'm sort of very like independently. So so I value
01:11:44
relationships a lot. So that's the real answer. But I
01:11:50
I'm not in the concept that one should stand out. So I rather have groups. So I
01:11:55
I believe that or I believe like I do have like 10 but not one like 10 very
01:12:03
very close friends who most of them I have since a very long time. I actually extremely value relations but I'm not
01:12:11
saying okay there is this one relation in my life which will completely stand out from the rest which is maybe a um a
01:12:19
complicated thing for relationship. I do think though this will change once you get children. Yeah. So which I want. So
01:12:25
that's sort of the Yeah. Um and by the way, I also do think people change like and and I don't think the core of you
01:12:32
changes and like the core but like you can make adjustments. So I know for example that when I want children or
01:12:38
once I have children that I have to make adjustments because I just want children
01:12:45
if they have the same happy childhood that I had. So I want to be either no dad or a great dad. Yeah. So and then I
01:12:51
know I need to make adjustments. So, but then it's worth it and then it's my active decision to take it.
01:12:58
How is it? You are the busiest person I know. I was just thinking then I was thinking, is this the busiest person I know? You're probably You're the busiest
01:13:04
person I know. I'd say have you struggled to have romantic
01:13:09
relationships because of that busyness? I feel like in like a interrogation of
01:13:16
curt. What did you think was going to happen here? This is what it's this is these are the
01:13:21
things no one talks about, right? And I sit here single struggling. So I'm like I'll ask Christian cuz he's
01:13:26
way busier and I'm struggling. So is there any hope for Steve? Yeah, totally. Like there's hope for all
01:13:32
of us. Be positive. It's funny. It's this feels like a bit more of an uncomfortable topic for you for some reason.
01:13:37
No, it's just very private. It's not uncomfortable. I will tell you my fuse in private easier because
01:13:43
um there's 100,000 people watching. Exactly. 100,000 people now. It's getting like cringey. Um, no. It it is
01:13:52
definitely a problem full stop. Like Yeah. And you realize that you're going to have to adjust at some point if I want
01:13:58
to do that. Yeah. Yeah. And then you always say like, okay, you do that. The issue is like what I
01:14:04
thinking a lot. How do you know when to adjust like in terms of because you would say romantically you would say you
01:14:10
adjust when the right one comes. How do you know that the right one comes if you don't have time to figure out to right?
01:14:15
There is these a little bit and I haven't figured that fully out. You're someone looking at the past 40 years of
01:14:21
your life that does whatever he wants to do and isn't actually very good at adjusting unwillingly. You you've never
01:14:26
been good in your life story at doing something unwillingly. You go the way Christian wants to go and
01:14:33
I just I wonder I'm like when will what will be the catalyst? You said kids may be there but what will be the catalyst that makes
01:14:39
Christian adjust? But maybe it's a romantic thing you really like love at first sight. I mean
01:14:45
again the good thing is that I I deeply believe that makes me very calm that
01:14:50
coming back to what we had that this I I deeply believe it's going to come at the right time and I know that I'm sort of
01:14:57
enough open for it because it's the same like with business ideas or the same with other stuff in my life. Again, if
01:15:03
you're open open heart open mind you're going to see it when it comes. So it's
01:15:08
not it's a little bit like with anything else like you don't have negative thoughts. Don't think oh I need it now
01:15:15
like yeah so it comes when it comes like because everything in my life came at the right time why not this one so I'm
01:15:22
very that's how I see it I guess at the macro level and by the way if in the moment things
01:15:28
came I can just say now business stuff but like again business is my like when
01:15:33
psychedelics came and then the business meaning that's sort of very a big part
01:15:39
of my time allocation over the last oh like four or five years was in the into the secondary business. I made space for
01:15:45
it. Yeah. So, I'm always like it's not again when things comes you realize that
01:15:50
you you realize the message and then you make space for it. But there's a chance you said that you
01:15:56
might be obstructing it from coming and happening because you're so preoccupied with No, I'm thinking about that. Then my
01:16:03
conclusion is then usually that or because again like I'm because romance
01:16:08
is maybe but it's not maybe it's maybe not like finding a good company maybe that sounds now very um very
01:16:15
non-romantic but I don't mean it's romantic because I also think finding company is very romantic or very very uh
01:16:20
emotional. Yeah. uh if I look for example at the psychedelic business I think that but I do actively again it's
01:16:28
not that I'm ignoring so what I said before my my my philosophy of not having
01:16:33
negative thoughts doesn't mean that you cannot analyze sort of stuff and sort of
01:16:39
look on the risky side so I do think about it is my life how I lead it maybe
01:16:44
preventing to have sort of the one and only romantic um experience Uh my conclusion
01:16:52
is then mostly that I'm like okay no because like it will come at the right time and then you're going to realize it
01:16:58
and then you're going to make space like you make like I make space for everything else. It's so funny cuz you because you're such an internal optimist I almost can't
01:17:05
get you to but that's how it work. Bad things happen to me as well. Bad things are
01:17:10
there but my mind twists it around or twists like this is what I'm really training since I'm 14 since I bought the
01:17:17
book in Munich. like every throw it to me throw it to me a negative thing and I'm I'm maybe a little bit puzzled
01:17:24
for a second or for example even this is how it works like things even if things in our portfolio don't go well I'm like
01:17:30
a little bit like shaken for a moment and I'm like where's the good thing and how can I turn that in my mind how can I
01:17:37
see the upside yeah it's fascinating because I was yeah I'm
01:17:42
trying to get you to you know the reason why I started this podcast is because sometimes I want to highlight that for
01:17:48
all the great things people see that you know there'll be people watching you thinking I would want to be have all these companies and manage you two
01:17:53
billion of assets and all these things but there's always a there's always some kind of down not downside but sacrifice
01:17:59
we could say that's happening and I'm trying to get out where that sacrifice is and the problem is you are happy so
01:18:08
and you're pursuing yourself so it's hard to identify a sacrifice when you're that optimistic no exact I know what you mean I just try
01:18:16
also as a message not to see it like I I think people shouldn't see it because that's the negative story about success.
01:18:23
The negative story of success is that people see people and say, "Oh, I want
01:18:28
to be like them. Yeah, I would like to have the wealth. I would like to have XY Z." Then they can't immediately have it
01:18:35
because by the way, it's a long process and you need to work harder. But and then they tell you, "Oh, they must have
01:18:42
gone through a lot of sacrifice." Yeah. And then this is a little bit what calms them down or they they they have a lot
01:18:48
of bad stuff like coming with it. I think that's the wrong way to look at for both sides. Like I think the right way to look at it like do I really want
01:18:55
that? Is this really what makes me happy? Yeah. And then it's by the way not that easy
01:19:01
to meaning everybody would say like oh yeah it's like simplified money makes me happy but then again do you makes it
01:19:07
happy what comes with it but I don't want to call it a sacrifice because I wouldn't do it if I would have to
01:19:13
sacrifice stuff in order to get money because it's not about money anyway by the way money from a certain moment on
01:19:19
is not really the driving force there there's there is there isn't meaning there is great research it's not
01:19:24
money it's like that for from practically zero to x Money gives you happiness because it makes your life
01:19:31
easier. So, but then someone you're not going to spend it because somewhere it becomes a figure. Yeah. And then it's
01:19:37
about do you love what you do? Yeah. So, latest then. Yeah. But like so so I don't people should see not this you
01:19:44
can't see I don't know wealth or anything separated from the the process
01:19:51
how you got there. Yeah. And then it's not about saying oh the process was hard and sacrifice. It's like is the whole
01:19:58
process what I love doing then you should throw you sort of or is it something else what I love and then you
01:20:04
should not though envy other people because that makes you miserable as well. You should always embrace what the
01:20:11
problem is people often don't know what they really want. Yeah. And that again psychedelics give you like but like in
01:20:18
the moment you embrace what you really want and maybe like like a housewife
01:20:23
maybe really loves it. It's not something where she should say, "Oh, I'm just a housewife and somebody else is a
01:20:29
big entrepreneur." Maybe that's what she really wants in this life. She maybe wants to have children, take care of
01:20:34
them and take care of him in exactly the way. But it's about knowing that actively, not letting other people
01:20:40
put you in that position or let circumstances put you in that position, but like actively know
01:20:47
yourself. Is that what makes you happy? Yeah, I've written about this at length in the book. this idea that like um but
01:20:52
obviously the huge force in our lives at the moment which whispers in our ear that we want to be something else is like social media and so society say
01:20:59
you've got to be a doctor your mom might say or Instagram will say you've got to be a billionaire and really you just want to be an artist that dances in
01:21:05
Croatia you know what I mean exactly embrace it but again you need to know it like by the way I think as much
01:21:11
as I love tech that's one of the other topics which which really like sort of how you say keep me away at yeah but
01:21:18
keep me away at night is something in the world we live in or
01:21:23
actually something in the world we are building because we we reconstructing
01:21:29
the world in any form and people I think have no no real glimpse yet how crazy
01:21:35
this will be. Yeah, we going now. People think we we're in like a 20 year of tech
01:21:40
boom, which is true on the one side, but if you're really honest, and there's this famous quote which I love to use
01:21:46
from Peter Teal who said we wanted flying cars and we got 140 characters on
01:21:53
Twitter. Yeah. Which says practically if you look at the last 20 years, yes, we had a tech boom, but more or less I'm
01:22:00
simplifying. Yeah. The what changed is the distribution of goods. Amazon. Now
01:22:06
we're not shopping anymore. We're getting it delivered, but it's still the same goods. Yeah. Um and um social media, it changed.
01:22:14
Communication changed, but we didn't go to the fabric of
01:22:20
society, industry, and ourselves. So now we starting going to reformulate and
01:22:26
rechange the fabric of ourselves longevity. We're gonna really make not
01:22:32
just five years again maybe with which change everything we change and this is all interdependent then in a moment we
01:22:38
change the fabric of our body or then we change the fabric of society because society is very much linked to an 80
01:22:45
year life expectancy yeah flying cars are now really coming literally we have fly yeah we have flying cars now soon
01:22:52
yeah we're going to go to Mars somewhere and it's going to happen maybe 20 maybe it's going to happen so the world is
01:22:57
going to change like we've never seen it before so And I love it. Yeah. And you love it. And maybe even the people who
01:23:04
watch that love it because otherwise they maybe wouldn't watch it. But like the majority of people doesn't. Yeah. So
01:23:11
and I think that's one of the underlying reasons which makes the society more and
01:23:16
more depressive or mental health because like I think there is this enormous fear. Um, and people often have like I
01:23:24
think it's a another word for gut feeling like you have you can't really explain it what makes you nervous but it
01:23:30
makes you nervous and I think that's what happening. So I think the sort of the world as a whole except of some
01:23:36
eternal optimists and some techies. Yeah. Are like yeah maybe I like a single piece. I like my iPhone. I like
01:23:42
that. But as an entirety that makes me deeply uncomfortable. The race of change around.
01:23:47
Exactly. Yeah. So and even if they don't know it, the bus driver maybe can't fully explain how a self-driving bus
01:23:54
will work, but somewhere he feels that in 10 years it's not going to be his job anymore. Yeah. And I think that creates
01:24:00
a lot of risk because the last time that happened that was when we changed from the agricultural society to the um to
01:24:09
the industrial society. Yeah. And you can say now we changed from the industrial society to let's call it data
01:24:16
society. We need a word for it but we're changing and changing in a massive way. So and
01:24:23
then so there are a lot of parallels of the time between 1875
01:24:29
and 1920 the people were there was these elite technically who said everything is
01:24:34
possible you had um it was I think it was in 1870 but I don't know something when when the Eiffel Tower was built
01:24:41
there was these uh what is it called world exhibition like and people were like oh my god when there was Jules Vern
01:24:46
when it was also around the time and hopefully I spell him right in English like he wrote all these books Yeah. Like
01:24:52
the sci-fi books. Yeah. So the world was already there once. Unfortunately, we had then two world wars.
01:24:57
Yeah. And you can look at a lot of reasons why World War I and two happened and there is a lot of different layers of um of of reasons. But I believe that
01:25:05
the main reason is these sort of disenfranchisement of the agricultural society who were
01:25:12
deeply panicky like what's happening to the world because the world the farmer
01:25:18
Yeah. in the 19th century knew was disappearing in in front of his eyes.
01:25:23
Yeah. And it's exactly happening the same again. So couldn't there could there not be another reason linked to that why people
01:25:30
are be becoming depressed in the technological evolution? Because you know at the start of this podcast you said about the importance of nature and
01:25:35
I've read studies about you know prisoners who face who face nature versus a brick wall are 30% less likely
01:25:42
to be depressed. And the the sort of very human prehistoric origin of the human being is one that's in nature.
01:25:48
It's one that's in a tribe, has meaningful connections, and the technological revolution is ridding, you
01:25:53
know, I now live between four white walls alone in a big gray city. Could that also not be part of the reason why
01:25:58
people are we're getting less human than ever? And in fact, what I what I like, you know, when I read about some of the
01:26:04
social reasons why people are getting more depressed, it's because we're getting further and further away from being human.
01:26:10
This is maybe a little bit more philosophical, but like if you look at like the things that help with mental health, some typically it's it's
01:26:16
meaningful connection. It's nature. It's good diet. No more junk. And these are all things that humans did
01:26:22
10,000 years ago. It's like we have to go back to find ourselves again. Or we have to find our human place in a
01:26:29
world which is changing. So yes. So I I I do I do think a lot how can we stay
01:26:35
human in a world which is changing that crazily as it does which wants robots. It's like this world
01:26:42
now would appreciate if I was a robot more productive. Now I think we can adjust. And by the way, and I know it's like and I'm saying
01:26:49
that with all the disclaimers, it's not legal right now and I'm always coming back to that. But I do think somewhere
01:26:56
psychedelics will be will be the medication for that because
01:27:02
it keeps us in a certain way very human but it at the same time makes us very adaptive on our environment. Um so
01:27:10
that's so I give you is more or less the same what you said. So how I see what do humans need to be happy? I think it's
01:27:16
three things. It's some form of faith and I explain in a
01:27:21
second. So, it's faith, it's purpose, and it's love. It's super cheesy what
01:27:27
I'm saying now, but like these are the three things which I I think make us as a as as as a the combination of these
01:27:35
three things make make us happy. Then I think let's go go through it. faith means any form of um higher meaning or
01:27:45
the other way around. I think being atheist or believing literally in a materialistic world where if you die
01:27:52
you're dead and then you rot. Yeah. Makes people very unhappy. This is not a again meaning I made I think the case
01:27:58
that I believe in in more but like let's it's not even a case. It's just like saying like factually I think people
01:28:04
need that. We need this why every society ever developed a religion. Like
01:28:10
I think we need it. Why? Because we're terrorized of dying. We don't admit it. I admit it. I don't want to age. Aging
01:28:15
sucks. Dying sucks. And even worse, by the way, dying of people I love sucks.
01:28:21
So, and we don't talk about it. We completely pushed it away from us. Yeah. And I believe religion always gave
01:28:28
people that sort of calmness or a little bit of a calmness that as death is not
01:28:35
the end. You want to see people again, people you love, whatever. So, and I think it's important because otherwise you have this permanent terror of death
01:28:42
in your head and you might not have been it but you have. Second point is purpose. What I say with a bus driver,
01:28:48
people need a purpose. Yeah. and they need to know why they wake up in the morning and um and um what they're
01:28:55
doing. So having said that uh in front of our very eyes at the moment like the these these things are dissolving that
01:29:01
the purposes so we need to find new ones and the most important is we need love and in a cheesy way must not be a one-on-one relationship but it could be
01:29:08
could be a one-on-one relationship could be a family could be a close friend could be a community. Yeah. So love on
01:29:14
various levels. So and actually the bad thing is if you look at where the world is going at the moment
01:29:20
all these three things are dissolved. So face is on a super decline. Yeah.
01:29:26
Um then purpose is on decline because we changing the world and most people don't find their purpose immediately there.
01:29:33
And then unfortunately also communities are on decline. traditional family structures, but also communities.
01:29:38
Meaning, if I remember if I grew up, I had like what do you call it in English? When you go to like a theater group and I had 10 groups, like it was all like it
01:29:45
was it was the sort of the pinnacle of a community. We were so and it was great. Yeah. And I don't think if you have that
01:29:51
anymore in that way. Yeah. Or at least this sort of vanishing. Yeah. Statistically, there's a study in the US
01:29:57
which says um 15 years ago, people would respond to the question, how many people can you turn to in time of crisis? The
01:30:03
medium answer was three. It's now zero. It's crazy. Like I had 10 when I was young. And psychedelics are giving you
01:30:08
that all of that. They're giving you faith, spirituality. They're giving you purpose because you you re you realize that the
01:30:15
purpose lies within you and you can reinvent yourself. And they're giving you love because you realize the value
01:30:21
of connections, whatever. I read tons of things and this is a bit of a sideway, but I read a great
01:30:27
No, it's really great. Like what is great? I love it. Like he's talking about the hu he's drinking. It's good. I will send you a big box of
01:30:34
There's different flavors. This one's berry. So, we'll send you this flavor as well. But it's also really good for you. It's the reason I'm in the best shape of
01:30:40
my life. I read something really interesting, which again goes against a couple of narratives I would expect from you. You said you have 42 pills a day.
01:30:47
Roundabout. This is someone that doesn't want to mess with their equilibrium. It's having 42 different pills a day.
01:30:53
Well, no. Yeah, but it's it's not Okay. No, I'm joking. No, no. It's like um I someone going to
01:31:00
put it online because so many people ask like so I um first of all I think
01:31:05
everything we take we eat is an active decision. So I like so if you remember
01:31:11
like before the the the the podcast the podcast I was looking at it because I wanted to know what is in it like and
01:31:16
there is seems to be a lot of good stuff in it. Yeah. I think that might be one of the greatest endorsements ever. the
01:31:22
fact that somebody who cares that much about their health that they won't touch anything bad looked at what was inside
01:31:27
Hu looked at the the vitamins, the the level of protein, the carbs, and all of
01:31:32
the amazing things it has in it. Someone like Christian who is a billionaire and decided that it was good enough for him,
01:31:39
right? Um Christian is obsessed with his health and uh and also I guess the other thing is he really really enjoyed the
01:31:45
flavor as well. He tried two flavors. He tried the new banana flavor, which if you haven't tried, I highly recommend
01:31:50
you do. But he also tried the berry flavor, which he actually decided to take with him, which was my old my old
01:31:56
favorite flavor. My new favorite flavor is the ready to drink banana flavor. But um I believe, you know, someone like
01:32:03
Christian who cares a lot about his health, who cares about convenience, and who cares about consuming things that taste good, I believe Christian is the
01:32:10
perfect customer for him. If you are someone that is often skips meals or doesn't always get the sort of
01:32:16
nutritionally complete diet that you need to function properly and to extend the length of your life and to be
01:32:21
healthy in your body and mind and he is just such a good solution. So, so I don't I'm not in a camp where people say
01:32:28
oh vitamins or any form of of added stuff is bad because I'm like everything I eat is something external going in my
01:32:36
body. Yeah. So and then my view on on aging at the moment is at the moment
01:32:42
there is unfortunately we're working on it hard. Yeah. But there is nothing which really slows down aging
01:32:47
dramatically. Yeah. Dramatically or and or or even reverses it. However, there
01:32:53
are things which give you a little bit of an edge. Yeah. And the edge is not big. Yeah. But unfortunately I'm not 20
01:33:01
anymore. If I would been 20 which uh then I would say hey no then then the optionality would be super easy. If I
01:33:08
would be 20 now and I tell that my godchildren they don't believe it they're 10 I'm like you're going to live for hundreds of years. Yeah. So I'm
01:33:15
unfortunately fortunately because I still have the opportunity and again my decision was like I want to work on it
01:33:21
because I think I do it better than others. Yeah. And I'd rather trust myself than wait than others doing it. Seriously, like we're like I like okay
01:33:27
but I'm I'm at the borderline like because I need to hurry up. So So even
01:33:32
if I do something now at the moment which gives me statistically two more years that's two more years like Yeah.
01:33:41
in a in a race. Yeah. Tell me what these things are. Well I think the I'm 20 so I'd like to
01:33:46
Yes. So I think there are some some easy things to do like um the uh for example
01:33:53
sleep is super important. Yeah. Then um why why sleep important
01:33:59
for could talk we could you should do I told you you should do a podcast just about sleep expon
01:34:06
yeah oh you had so it's perfect like there's so many reasons but sleep is one of the core things we don't fully
01:34:12
understand it yet but like who has practically if you I don't know the exact number but read why we sleep from
01:34:18
Matthew Walker like I think if if you if you sleep 2 three hours less than you
01:34:23
should for some days your immune system is collapsing If your immune system collapsing that your probability of cancer goes up and I mean sleep has so
01:34:30
many ne good sleep is so good for you and ne too little sleep has so many negative consequences that so sleep is
01:34:36
super important so I try to sleep enough for example I try that's one of the luxury things uh which I can do because
01:34:43
I work for myself that I don't have early morning meetings so and I have always something to do like emails
01:34:49
whatever but I try that I can wake up naturally so I never wake up with an alarm clock as unless I need to fly or
01:34:56
whatever. Yeah. So, um so that's one thing. Then obviously no alcohol. Alcohol is a is a is a is toxic like
01:35:03
full stop. Cigarettes. All all drugs except of psychedelics are toxic. Yeah. So don't do them. Yeah. Very bad for
01:35:09
aging. Yeah. You see that by the way when people like Yeah. Um I don't want to
01:35:15
say now that I aged well, but like if I go to a class reunion or whatever, like some people who drink very a lot of
01:35:21
alcohol and eat [ __ ] Yeah. they look older like it's like so so they say is
01:35:26
yeah food like intake you be healthy don't carbs like sugar is super bad like I think so so I don't want to go yes I
01:35:33
do 42 pills or whatever it is yeah and meaning it's the list would be long and
01:35:38
maybe again maybe I put it somewhere online but I think the message is because if people jump from zero to 42
01:35:44
pills they won't do it anyway so whoever listens now I would say if you do the three four five things which sort of
01:35:50
it's these 8020 rules I'm trying to carve out the 20% but go for the sort of the easy hard
01:35:57
and easy first. Sleep, healthy food, exercise is super important. Must not be
01:36:03
super hard exercise, but like every day like 20, 30 minutes of mild to medium exercise, as I said, no drugs, no
01:36:11
alcohol, whatever. Um, these are the main ones. You're going to be significantly healthier. And I heard you talk about intermittent
01:36:17
fasting. Yes. Oh, sorry. Intermittent fasting is one. Yes. So I try not to eat for 16 18 hours a day every day. And once you
01:36:24
start doing it, you you sort of you why why do you do that? Why do you intermittently fast? I've always been
01:36:30
curious about it. I've never done it. Uh because it's very healthy. I mean there are a lot of health benefits. Your
01:36:36
your blood sugar level sort of normalizes which has then sort of a lot of um follow on effects. Yeah. It's also
01:36:44
you lose weight. It's a very simple like Yeah. Um I um I actually only have one other
01:36:50
thing that I wanted to ask you about. I mean I I don't I have a million things, but in the interest of time, it was about Bitcoin.
01:36:55
Yep. You you've you've been a big investor in Bitcoin and the future of Bitcoin, you're bullish. Super bullish. Because what I think is
01:37:02
like all politicians from left and right from from any part of the spectrum. And by
01:37:08
the way, I think about it a lot. I think maybe it's not even a stupid decision what they took but like all politicians
01:37:14
decided that money printing is the thing to go. Yeah. So we're going to see these
01:37:20
massive devaluation of fiat money and never before again I really love history
01:37:25
and normally this happened to one currency or one country or whatever at
01:37:30
the moment it happens it's it's happening to all the major currencies in the world euro
01:37:35
[Music] remn like US dollar everything is sort of devaluated at the same time so and
01:37:42
because everything is relative to each other obviously by the way it's not just bitcoin but assets go up this is why I'm
01:37:47
on a 10 year horizon. I'm extremely bullish on in general quality assets,
01:37:54
stocks, bitcoin, anything which is not cash. I think the most dangerous asset
01:38:00
class for 10 years is cash. Doesn't mean by the way there can't be stock market
01:38:05
crash whatever in between where you want to have cash to buy. Yeah. So you should have like how you say in English
01:38:11
tactically cash but not like strategically cash. Yeah. Um so but Bitcoin and so and Bitcoin is one of
01:38:18
these assets first and then second the world always needs a store of value.
01:38:23
So for thousands of years gold is was the store of value of choice. Meaning you think about it how many currencies
01:38:30
were there and many thousands because by the way always politicians mess it up. Always like pe
01:38:37
politicians can't be entrusted with currencies. Full stop. It's always a bad idea. Yeah. Always 100%. And so people
01:38:44
always had gold. Yeah. So, but gold is is also people then say, "Oh, Bitcoin has no value." Gold has no value. You
01:38:50
can't eat it. It's actually one of these things like you can't eat it. It's maybe nice to look at, but like it's just a
01:38:56
convention. It's just an agreement humanity has. And I would go further. It's embedded in our cultural system.
01:39:02
There are so many fairy tales and things about gold. But if you ask a 10-year-old, for him it's Bitcoin.
01:39:10
Bitcoin is his pop culture store of value and that's exactly gold. So and I think that shift has happened or is
01:39:16
about to happen that Bitcoin is at least additionally to gold and someone will completely make gold redundant. Yeah. Is
01:39:23
the new store of value and it's just you can argue now what's the value of Bitcoin because it's it's a it's a
01:39:29
convention. It's a deal society made that we accept that that's the value. Yeah. There's no nothing more meaning
01:39:35
you can add than say oh maybe bitcoin is disrupting the financial but it's all secondary. The main thing is, is it a
01:39:40
store of value or not? And for me, it is a store of value. Yeah, that's sort of the main driver of uh Bitcoin is the new
01:39:46
gold. That's enough, by the way, to make it still go up dramatically compared to gold.
01:39:53
We could talk about this forever, but um my last question, and this is definitely my last question, is as you think
01:39:58
forward, you know, in your future, you you said at the start of this podcast about visualizing every morning, you
01:40:04
visualize and you think about the things that you want your future to hold. I know if I said to you like what's the end? There is no end. I get that because
01:40:10
I understand you're thinking this is a continuous pursuit of your own hobbies and interests. But when you visualize what you want
01:40:16
Christian's future to look like, say in, you know, a couple of decades from now, what are the like the principles of that
01:40:23
future? What are the characteristics of it? I still want to look like today. You want to look super sexy and young. You want to look 20 years old.
01:40:29
We're going to make that. Yeah, we can do that on Photoshop. No, not on Photoshop. We're going to make that in real life because I value
01:40:35
human connection. Photoshop doesn't work because you want to be cyborgs anyway. So in virtual world so
01:40:41
well I think we're going to be cyborgs. I think we're going to that's one of the drivers which I think is still human. We're going to merge with technology. We
01:40:46
already are meaning what is it called like what you put on your heart like um a stent or like whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Is
01:40:52
already like a cyborg. It's just very early. Exactly. It's very So but that's the whole point. I there is
01:40:58
no end game because that would be kind of sad. It's this what it's the same
01:41:04
like with work life balance to say if I would just work because then you're back
01:41:09
at these famous sort of what was it a novel from whom was it like that or these old tale where the fisher is on
01:41:15
the the guy is on the beach and meets the guy the story yeah you know which one I mean like
01:41:22
where then it comes out oh he works his ass off just to lie on the beach and then the poor guy is saying why you could lie on the beach now yeah that's
01:41:27
the whole point it's about the journey it's not about an end point so I don't have an end point and I never had I just
01:41:34
like try to keep my again it's all about keeping my life exciting because if it
01:41:40
wouldn't then I would want to die. So keep my life cool. And this, by the way, this can change when maybe in 40 years.
01:41:46
It's not I'm not a robot. Like this is not gonna I'm not gonna be I'm I'm
01:41:53
maturing like or maturing like I'm I'm changing in a positive way. Like uh maybe in 40 years I decide that I don't
01:42:01
think so, but I don't know like and it's like the good thing is that I'm open for I want to be already maybe in 40 years. I look I had now everything I had on a
01:42:08
in- entrepreneurship. Maybe I want to you you feel yourself changing and maturing in your
01:42:13
Yeah, but maturing is I want you don't yet changing but in a in a good way that
01:42:18
again I'm trying to continuously analyze what now we're back at the word soul or
01:42:25
whatever you would call it your inner voice is telling you what is good for me now and it might be that this is
01:42:30
changing over time so for example I decided decided is the wrong word like I
01:42:36
feel that it's getting time somewhere and not urgently to getting children like if you would have asked me 20 years
01:42:42
ago I would have said no I don't want children like yeah so but it's like open being open for that and maybe in 40
01:42:48
years I'm just making it up now as an example not that I feel like maybe I say look I want to be a singer now god
01:42:53
beware and the world is like no no no because I but like maybe I have some new ideas which really like are different
01:43:01
what I'm doing now but like it's important to stay open for that inner voice because it might change and just
01:43:06
because again so far continuously. I love doing what I do and exploring that.
01:43:11
But like you know what I mean? Like I can get you. Yeah. So don't put an end point. There is not this one thing because that would
01:43:17
be sad. Like if most depressive day ever, isn't it? Exactly. Like the day you lose all meaning sooner.
01:43:23
Yeah. Well, listen, thank you so much for for agreeing to do this. You are honestly the one of the most fascinating people I
01:43:29
I've I've ever met. And I I'm not just saying I want to win an Oscar by the way. I'm sure you do. No, no. There was one I want to be doing
01:43:35
something creative like I I something artistic. Artistic. Yeah. So I've I've gone through the same thing
01:43:42
since leaving social chain. I was like I'm going to DJ. I'm I've done a big That by the way I thought was very cool when you told me that. I was like that's
01:43:48
a cool thing. I've got I've directed a theatrical show with the the associate director of Hamilton. It's it's theater. It's called
01:43:55
the Dire of Sea Live. It's the theatrical version of my life. There's a 50 person choir sold out already. And I
01:44:01
said to myself that I didn't want to be a label. So I don't want to be a social media CEO. I'm a guy that has a bunch of
01:44:07
a perspective. And that perspective can be applied to art, my book, which I wrote myself, the show, creating music.
01:44:13
I've got my first DJ performance at a festival this year. And I just thought what what if you detached yourself from
01:44:18
your labels? What kind of person would you become? You'd become artistic. You'd become healthcentric. You'd start
01:44:24
businesses. You know, for example, I always think I should write the script because I can't act when I could like when I'm not good in
01:44:30
it. Also, you should be always self-aware what it's not worth pursuing. But like I always maybe you should write
01:44:35
a script. I was like because I love movies. I produce movies. So so I so I was like maybe I should again but again
01:44:41
it's always listening to yourself what your soul inner voiceever you want to call it. Not society.
01:44:47
Exactly. And not outside world is telling you. You are the probably the most
01:44:52
interesting person I know in in a really compelling way. Sometimes I know people and they're like successful and they
01:44:58
think, "Oh god, I hate to be that person." But you are in like a really compelling unique way because of your
01:45:03
work you do, but because of your philosophy for life, because of this sort of this I guess like almost I don't
01:45:09
know what the hell they they refer to it, but this like how your how your scientific view can can merge with a
01:45:15
spiritual one and a religious one, I find super fascinating. I think it's those sort of intersections that create really interesting ideas. Um, you're
01:45:22
also the most hardworking person I know. Um, but you're also a really nice guy. Oh, thank you. You know, really like nice guy behind
01:45:28
the scenes as well. And so, thank you for coming on the podcast. I think, you know, I think your future is going to be
01:45:35
staggering. I talk about you all the time to my team, all the time. I'm like, you know, because you are very very compelling in a number of really
01:45:41
positive ways. Uh I think I think uh the work you're doing with AAI, Compass, and all of your other companies are
01:45:47
staggering. And I think you're actually going to be one of the most important entrepreneurs, creators of our time. I
01:45:54
think the world is And I was like a very bad like I genuinely was like I know
01:46:00
Christian coming on my podcast now. I know in 10 years time this is probably going to be one of my most viewed podcasts ever because of the trajectory
01:46:06
you're on and the way you think. It's my my prediction. I'm very rarely wrong. But thank you don't have to be like oh
01:46:12
you're so right don't know what to say and then we mean it. I do mean it. Um and it's been a
01:46:17
privilege to work with you over the last couple of months and understand that because it's been inspiring for me. Um thank you for doing this today. I
01:46:22
hope you've enjoyed it. Yeah I did. I did very much. Amazing. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks. Cool. People ask me for book recommendations
01:46:29
all the time and I finally got one for you. It's a book called Happy Sexy Millionaire which is authored by me. Um
01:46:37
I spent the last almost 2 years in jungles around the world in Costa Rica
01:46:42
and Indonesia in solitude writing this book. It's the there's this crazy thing when you write a book because you you
01:46:48
spend so much time pouring your heart and soul into it and everything you know and all of the revelations you've had in
01:46:53
your life and then there's this barrier which is that people have to buy the thing in order for them to get that
01:46:59
thing that means so much to you. I wish that wasn't the case. It's just the way the industry is and in order to get that
01:47:04
distribution and to get it on shelves, you need a publisher. So please, please, please, if you can, if you've ever liked
01:47:10
anything I've ever ever produced, this podcast, my Instagrams, anything I've ever said, read this book. There was no
01:47:16
ghost writer. I wrote every single word myself. There's some real surprises in there. It's an honest, sometimes
01:47:22
hilarious, incredibly vulnerable, hopefully valuable recount of my life, my journey, everything I've learned
01:47:28
across across the way. And really the answer to being fulfilled, to being happy, and to achieving success. It is
01:47:34
the most important important thing I've ever created. So, I implore you to go to Amazon now or wherever you get your books and get that pre-order. If you get
01:47:41
that pre-order, I'm going to put you into a group with everybody that's pre-ordered it, and I'm going to send you some exclusive stuff. So, the first
01:47:47
things I'm going to do is a series of voice notes, which I think are um are going to be pretty powerful. I'm going to give you access to some tickets,
01:47:53
which nobody else will have, and I'm going to do everything I can to thank you for for for giving me that sort of 9
01:47:58
quid of your money or what whatever it is. Happy sexy millionaire. You can pre-order it everywhere now. And if you do get that pre-order, please do DM me
01:48:05
because I'd love to thank you myself.