00:00:00
I have inside information on Jeffrey
00:00:02
Epstein and why the US government is
00:00:04
reluctant to be more transparent. And I
00:00:06
know this because when I was working in
00:00:08
government meetings were not how shall
00:00:10
we tell the public, but what shall we
00:00:12
tell the public? So often the best we
00:00:14
can get in our skepticism is to know
00:00:17
that we are not being told the truth.
00:00:18
>> I think people need to know the truth.
00:00:20
>> So put on your seat belt. I'm going to
00:00:22
tell you everything and all senior
00:00:23
people in the US government know
00:00:25
everything that you and I have discussed
00:00:27
here today. So you've been behind the
00:00:28
scenes with some of the most successful,
00:00:30
richest, most powerful people on planet
00:00:31
Earth. But what is it you do, Gavin?
00:00:33
>> So I do protective coverage. You know,
00:00:35
any of the ways that wealthy or
00:00:37
prominent people might be targeted. For
00:00:39
example, the Saudi Arabian government
00:00:41
obtained a system which can get into
00:00:43
your phone used it on Jeff Bezos. So our
00:00:46
work was to figure out how it happened.
00:00:48
>> Why would a government want to hack the
00:00:49
founder of Amazon's phone? So, I'll tell
00:00:51
you in a second, but we're all not as
00:00:53
careful as we could be in terms of what
00:00:55
we say, what we text, and there is
00:00:57
absolutely no protection viable for the
00:01:00
confidentiality of your phone. Do you
00:01:02
have any skepticism about that?
00:01:04
>> I just have a lot of ignorance to how
00:01:06
this whole world works.
00:01:07
>> Lucky you. But all power centers in
00:01:09
human history lie. There are some
00:01:11
examples of this where we'll start
00:01:12
telling the truth about something, but
00:01:14
years later, things like cancer causing
00:01:15
asbestous and baby powder, 100,000
00:01:17
people dying from heart attacks from
00:01:19
opioids. and we'll see it with mass
00:01:21
vaccination.
00:01:21
>> So, what advice would you give about how
00:01:23
to navigate in the world we're living in
00:01:25
today to avoid risk threat?
00:01:27
>> I've got some core truths. So, first of
00:01:29
all,
00:01:32
guys, I've got a quick favor to ask you.
00:01:34
We're approaching a significant
00:01:36
subscriber milestone on this show, and
00:01:38
roughly 69% of you that listen and love
00:01:40
this show haven't yet subscribed for
00:01:42
whatever reason. If there was ever a
00:01:44
time for you to do us a favor, if we've
00:01:46
ever done anything for you, giving you
00:01:48
value in any way, it is simply hitting
00:01:50
that subscribe button. And it means so
00:01:52
much to myself, but also to my team
00:01:53
because when we hit these milestones, we
00:01:54
go away as a team and celebrate. And
00:01:56
it's the thing, the simple, free, easy
00:01:57
thing you can do to help make this show
00:01:59
a little bit better every single week.
00:02:01
So, that's a favor I would ask you. And
00:02:03
um if you do hit the subscribe button, I
00:02:05
won't let you down. And we'll continue
00:02:07
to find small ways to make this whole
00:02:09
production better. Thank you so much for
00:02:11
being part of this journey. Means the
00:02:12
world. And uh yeah, let's do this.
00:02:19
>> Gavin, we have a mutual friend and that
00:02:22
mutual friend actually sent me a voice
00:02:24
note late last night. Here is what the
00:02:26
voice note says.
00:02:27
>> I'm calling it this crazy hours. I found
00:02:29
out that you're interviewing a dear
00:02:30
friend of mine, Gavin Debecker, I think
00:02:32
in 2 days. I think on the 13th. He is an
00:02:35
extraordinary human being, extraordinary
00:02:37
soul. He comes from a a very tough
00:02:40
background. But what he's done to move
00:02:42
from that background to becoming
00:02:44
probably the single greatest security
00:02:46
expert in the world. He designed the
00:02:48
systems that are used to protect the
00:02:50
Supreme Court. I've met him decades ago
00:02:53
when there was a threat happening to a
00:02:54
former girlfriend of mine and then I was
00:02:57
getting threatening letters and he
00:02:58
deciphered the letters in micros
00:03:00
secondsonds, got the FBI involved and
00:03:02
put a stop to it all. It was
00:03:05
extraordinary what he did.
00:03:08
Wow.
00:03:08
>> That was Tony Robbins for anyone that
00:03:10
didn't recognize
00:03:11
>> I recognize
00:03:12
>> the voice. Yeah, it'd be crazy if
00:03:13
someone didn't.
00:03:14
>> But it got me incredibly incredibly
00:03:16
curious because he said lots of things
00:03:17
there that I found fascinating.
00:03:18
>> Um, the first one I'm going to start
00:03:20
with is he described you helping him
00:03:22
with a personal situation in his life.
00:03:24
And I guess this beggets the question,
00:03:26
>> what is it you do for people like Tony
00:03:30
Robbins? What is it you do for famous
00:03:32
people, for world leaders? What is it
00:03:34
you do, Gavin? The main function of my
00:03:37
company is anti-assination.
00:03:40
So we develop and deploy anti-assination
00:03:43
strategies. Under that under
00:03:45
assassination which you can consider the
00:03:47
worst possible outcome um are lesser
00:03:49
outcomes like other kinds of crimes uh
00:03:52
destruction of of reputation uh threats
00:03:55
that are designed to cause anxiety and
00:03:57
fear. We have a division that does
00:03:59
assessment of threats and management of
00:04:01
threats. We have a division that does
00:04:04
actual protective coverage. That's the
00:04:05
biggest division, meaning actual
00:04:07
physical protectors, fit, young, capable
00:04:10
people, not uh retired ex- cops who are
00:04:12
overweight and on their second career,
00:04:14
but uh you know, people who are who are
00:04:16
really trained for this specific field,
00:04:18
armored vehicles, modifications to
00:04:20
homes, basically everything that fits
00:04:22
into the category of preventing uh uh or
00:04:25
disrupting uh uh efforts to do tissue
00:04:28
damage. So, we're in the business of
00:04:30
preventing tissue damage. And who are
00:04:32
some of the names that you do this for
00:04:34
and have done this for over the years?
00:04:36
>> All of the names that I do it for are uh
00:04:39
never spoken by me. So, uh I don't say
00:04:41
who clients are and I don't say who they
00:04:44
aren't because if I say to you so and so
00:04:46
isn't a client, uh that is information
00:04:49
that might reveal that somebody else is
00:04:50
or something you heard is true or not
00:04:52
true. The way I can describe it to you
00:04:54
though is to say that it's if you took
00:04:56
the 20 people you would assume uh fit
00:04:58
into this category or the 50 um most of
00:05:01
them are clients.
00:05:03
>> I mean according to the internet you
00:05:05
sort of reference certain things before
00:05:07
because these people have spoken or you
00:05:09
know you've been seen in photos.
00:05:11
>> That's right. If a client identifies me
00:05:13
or it happens because I testify in a
00:05:15
court case or something that's a
00:05:16
different animal. It just doesn't come
00:05:18
from I view myself as sort of like a a
00:05:20
psychiatrist or a doctor. I wouldn't be
00:05:22
the one revealing it.
00:05:24
>> And some of those names that have been
00:05:25
revealed by others are Jeff Bezos,
00:05:28
Elizabeth Taylor, Sher Madonna, Barbara
00:05:30
Stysand, and many, many, many more. From
00:05:32
government officials to royalty, etc.,
00:05:34
etc. What was Tony referring to when he
00:05:38
said that you helped him with a
00:05:39
situation with his girlfriend, a threat,
00:05:40
found out that it wasn't who people
00:05:42
thought they were,
00:05:42
>> right? Surely, he was referring to a
00:05:44
case I'll never reveal, and I won't even
00:05:47
acknowledge he's a client.
00:05:48
>> You won't even say he's a client.
00:05:50
>> I won't say it. if you if you have it
00:05:52
from some other source.
00:05:53
>> Tony said it.
00:05:54
>> I I understand your interrogation is
00:05:56
makes all the sense in the world, but I
00:05:58
just don't say it. I don't talk about
00:05:59
clients. There's a bunch of reasons, but
00:06:01
most of all, just absolute
00:06:02
confidentiality. I know it's weird.
00:06:04
Apologies.
00:06:05
>> But I heard you talk about the Jeff
00:06:06
Bezos situation.
00:06:08
>> Uh you heard me talk about uh uh cyber
00:06:10
security and and the vulnerability of
00:06:13
phones. Uh, and the Bezos situation is a
00:06:16
little bit different in that I was
00:06:18
involved very publicly in it, but
00:06:20
clearly with permission of my client and
00:06:23
and organized with my client. Same thing
00:06:24
as when I testify in a court case,
00:06:26
there's no secrecy about it. I'm doing
00:06:28
it, but it doesn't mean that I'll then
00:06:30
do it everywhere. And and so in that
00:06:33
case where you did have Jeff's
00:06:34
permission, the the background context
00:06:36
was there was a newspaper that was going
00:06:37
to publish that he was having an affair
00:06:38
with I think his current wife who wasn't
00:06:41
his wife at the time, Lauren Sanchez,
00:06:43
and you were called upon in that
00:06:45
scenario to figure out what was going on
00:06:47
and you were able to solve that.
00:06:49
>> Yes.
00:06:49
>> What are you able to talk about there?
00:06:51
>> Well, I'll think back to what's already
00:06:53
been what's already been public. Uh and
00:06:55
it won't be from me. It won't be
00:06:57
anything about the client, but it will
00:07:00
be about the Saudi Arabian government,
00:07:02
which at that time had just obtained a u
00:07:06
a system called Pegasus 3, which can get
00:07:08
into your phone remotely. It doesn't
00:07:11
require a click of any kind, meaning you
00:07:13
don't have to acknowledge anything. It
00:07:15
can get in. It's called a no click
00:07:16
exploit. And it could do everything in
00:07:19
your phone from 7,000 miles away that
00:07:23
you could do holding the phone in your
00:07:24
hand. even if it was off, could turn on
00:07:27
the camera, could turn on the
00:07:28
microphone. It exists. It's a very real
00:07:30
thing made by the Israelis. And the
00:07:33
Saudi prince MBS had just gotten it. And
00:07:36
he used it on a group of dissident
00:07:40
around the world. He also used it on
00:07:43
Jeff Bezos. According to the United
00:07:45
Nations, according to lots of things
00:07:46
that have been public, our work was to a
00:07:50
figure it out, figure out how it
00:07:52
happened. In those days, I didn't know
00:07:53
what Pegasus 3 was. I didn't know what
00:07:55
this system was. But the instrumental or
00:07:59
perhaps useful thing for you and your
00:08:01
audience to know is that there is
00:08:04
absolutely no protection viable for the
00:08:07
confidentiality of your phone if a
00:08:09
government wants you. And the reason I
00:08:11
say there's no stopping it is that even
00:08:14
when Apple puts out a new solution uh
00:08:17
which they do an update uh that you know
00:08:19
breaks some particular exploit thousands
00:08:22
of people around the world immediately
00:08:23
start working on the next exploit. So if
00:08:26
I said to you here's a phone and we've
00:08:27
modified it and it's great Mr. President
00:08:30
here you can use this phone for your
00:08:31
confidential conversations. Uh in a
00:08:33
month it won't work anymore. And so I
00:08:36
I'm able to tell clients and friends and
00:08:38
now you and your audience there are a
00:08:41
lot of things being offered for sale
00:08:43
that you know supposedly protect the
00:08:45
confidentiality of your phone calls for
00:08:47
example or your texts. Nothing will work
00:08:49
reliably. There is no solution to that
00:08:52
problem that is reliable.
00:08:54
>> Nothing.
00:08:54
>> Yeah. There is there devices sold.
00:08:57
There's all variety of things. But the
00:08:58
reality is that even if something
00:09:00
worked, even if I said to you, here's
00:09:01
this cool new such and such phone that
00:09:04
will protect you, it'll only protect you
00:09:06
for a while because there's a constant
00:09:08
effort to improve the exploits. And also
00:09:11
I have to say people are somewhat
00:09:13
reluctant and maybe even lazy. I'll put
00:09:16
myself on the list uh and I'll put you
00:09:18
on the list without even knowing you.
00:09:20
We're all not as careful as we could be
00:09:22
in terms of what we say, what we text.
00:09:24
And uh I have a dear friend and client
00:09:27
who every text and every email that he
00:09:30
sends also goes to his executive
00:09:32
assistant and everybody knows it. And
00:09:35
what happens is it controls and
00:09:36
influences his behavior. So when you
00:09:39
send me that off-color joke that I
00:09:40
wouldn't want to see on television, he
00:09:43
responds differently. He doesn't say,
00:09:45
"Oh, that's great." And add another
00:09:46
topping line on top of it. He because he
00:09:48
knows that his assistant in the other
00:09:50
room is seeing that. And so the best we
00:09:53
can all do is be be watchful what we say
00:09:56
and have no pretense of of privacy or
00:09:59
confidentiality because it simply does
00:10:02
not exist. Period. The US government got
00:10:05
into the phones of all of our allies,
00:10:08
the prime ministers, chancellor of West
00:10:11
Germany, uh prime minister of England,
00:10:13
president of France. This is a game
00:10:15
that's going on all the time and uh and
00:10:18
privacy is just not part of the new
00:10:20
world. Why would a government want to
00:10:22
hack the founder of Amazon's phone?
00:10:25
>> Well, the again from what's been public,
00:10:26
the founder of Amazon was also the owner
00:10:29
of the Washington Post. And the Saudis
00:10:31
had killed Kosoji, who was a journalist
00:10:33
for the Washington Post. And the
00:10:35
Washington Post then started putting out
00:10:37
an Arabic edition. That didn't feel good
00:10:40
for the Saudis. And then they really
00:10:42
went after the I'll call him the head of
00:10:45
state. He's the prince but but his
00:10:47
father was alive and was actually the
00:10:48
head of state but they really went after
00:10:50
NBS. I think uh Bezos was a kind of
00:10:52
adversary in that regard. Additionally,
00:10:55
the Saudi sovereign fund developed an
00:10:58
Amazon competitor called something like
00:11:00
N or something like that and so they
00:11:03
were concerned about that and they were
00:11:04
also doing deals with Amazon and so they
00:11:06
could get economic advantage by seeing
00:11:09
what the various executives are texting
00:11:11
to each other. So there was a lot of a
00:11:12
lot of moving parts to that. So all
00:11:14
these things I've just shared with you
00:11:16
were highstakes matters going on around
00:11:18
the time that Kosoji was killed and that
00:11:21
the western countries of the world were
00:11:23
objecting to this assassination team of
00:11:26
his going around and and killing people
00:11:28
and and getting into their phones.
00:11:30
>> In early 2019, Jeff Bezos publicly
00:11:32
accused the US tabloid the National
00:11:33
Inquirer of attempting to blackmail and
00:11:35
extort him by threatening to publish
00:11:37
intimate photos including what he
00:11:38
described as a nude below the belt
00:11:40
selfie of him and his then partner
00:11:42
Lauren Sanchez. Bezos wrote a blog post
00:11:44
saying AMI emailed his lawyer and
00:11:47
security adviser Gavin Debeca's council
00:11:49
threatening to publish personal photos
00:11:51
and texts unless he and his team
00:11:52
publicly stated that the tabloid's
00:11:54
coverage of him was not politically
00:11:55
motivated.
00:11:56
>> Yeah. What they wanted me to do, the
00:11:59
Inquirer and they negotiated with me and
00:12:01
my lawyer over this that I was to go
00:12:03
public and say two things. I was to say
00:12:06
it was not politically motivated and it
00:12:08
was not influenced by outside actors
00:12:11
i.e. the Saudis and that there was no
00:12:13
hacking involved. My question was, why
00:12:16
the hell do you want me to say those two
00:12:18
things specifically? And my I already
00:12:20
knew the answer, of course, because
00:12:22
there was outside influence and there
00:12:24
was hacking. Their request for me was so
00:12:28
strange that we didn't go along with it.
00:12:30
Bezos ultimately wrote a medium post
00:12:33
talking about it publicly and saying,
00:12:35
"Hey, if if if I can't stand up to this,
00:12:38
then where is a regular person?" And
00:12:40
ultimately those pictures were never
00:12:42
published.
00:12:42
>> Yeah. I can't I won't even comment on
00:12:44
whether those pictures exist because
00:12:46
they were doing a fascinating thing by
00:12:47
the way. They were it's sort of like
00:12:49
selling you land in in Florida that's
00:12:51
marsh land and doesn't exist. They were
00:12:53
doing an extortion on a thing they
00:12:55
didn't even have. All right. So it's
00:12:57
kind of a double crime. It's an
00:12:58
extortion and fraud.
00:13:00
>> It's interesting. You know, we we start
00:13:01
talking here about digital coms and that
00:13:04
type of security with everything that's
00:13:06
going on at this exact moment in time
00:13:07
with all these Epstein files and there's
00:13:08
a big conversation, you know, because
00:13:10
now we can see 3,000 3 million documents
00:13:12
and many of them are emails that people
00:13:14
have sent at different times. Some of
00:13:15
the most famous people in the world have
00:13:17
sent emails to Epstein and now those are
00:13:19
all out there in the public to see. I
00:13:22
wondered what your take was on all of
00:13:24
this stuff. You must be watching this
00:13:25
stuff from like through the lens that
00:13:26
you've built your career and uh you must
00:13:30
have an interesting opinion.
00:13:31
>> Some of it I I don't talk about because
00:13:34
I have a fair amount of inside
00:13:37
information and I'm just watchful about
00:13:38
not getting near the line.
00:13:40
>> What do you mean by inside information?
00:13:41
I mean information that that I might
00:13:43
have gotten from uh I'm characterizing
00:13:45
it carefully that I might have gotten
00:13:47
from government agencies that are
00:13:48
clients or that I might have gotten
00:13:50
because uh clients were uh were
00:13:53
implicated like I learned today for
00:13:54
example this morning on the way over
00:13:56
here that I'm in the Epstein files.
00:13:58
>> Oh, really?
00:13:58
>> And here's the way I'm in there is that
00:14:00
someone sent Epstein an article that I
00:14:03
wrote called Fooling Ourselves into war.
00:14:06
And so uh somebody sent that uh article
00:14:09
which is an article I really like by the
00:14:11
way uh published in in Huffington Post
00:14:14
at the time and um they sent that to
00:14:16
Epstein. So that's an example of being
00:14:19
in the Epstein files and yet obviously
00:14:21
never having met Epstein. But I have a
00:14:23
few clients who and friends who the
00:14:27
Epstein group made approaches on and
00:14:30
failed. Meaning they tried to get them
00:14:32
and failed. I'll give you one story
00:14:34
without naming the person, of course. He
00:14:37
goes to meet with Epstein in New York to
00:14:39
ask for money for a charity. And and
00:14:42
Epste is perceived as this big
00:14:44
billionaire, which he was not, by the
00:14:45
way. I'll tell you in a second. And
00:14:47
Epste is in a robe. And they're across
00:14:49
the desk just like you and I are. And
00:14:51
Epstein says, "Hey, um, they're
00:14:53
finishing the meeting." He says, "Hey,
00:14:54
I'm going to get a massage." Hence my
00:14:56
robe. Do you want to get a massage? And
00:14:58
through the hallway, my friend can see a
00:15:02
massage table and a room and a very cute
00:15:04
girl who's the massage therapist, right?
00:15:06
Dressed like a massage therapist. And so
00:15:08
he happened to say no. In fact,
00:15:11
interestingly, he happens to not like
00:15:13
massage, which is itself, you know, a
00:15:16
lot of people would say yes and might
00:15:17
even think it would improve my
00:15:19
relationship with this guy, Jeffrey
00:15:21
Epstein, who I perceive as this rich guy
00:15:22
that I'm trying to get money from my
00:15:24
charity. Um, had that happened,
00:15:28
what a different world for that person.
00:15:30
What a different life. Because in that
00:15:32
room is cameras and then eventually
00:15:36
audio. It didn't start off with audio,
00:15:37
but audio was added later. And then
00:15:39
you're getting a hand job, if I'm
00:15:41
allowed to say hand job, from somebody
00:15:42
who you don't even think about their
00:15:44
age, but turns out to be 17, and you are
00:15:48
in a world of trouble for the rest of
00:15:51
your life. And that's a big piece of
00:15:54
what was going on with Epstein with
00:15:56
cameras in that apartment in New York
00:15:58
and eventually audio cameras and
00:16:00
eventually audio at the island. My take
00:16:03
on it uh and certainly my public take is
00:16:06
that there was a profound uh uh
00:16:10
blackmail operation going on to the
00:16:12
benefit of probably more than one
00:16:15
government, but at least one government.
00:16:16
And when I said a moment ago he wasn't a
00:16:18
billionaire, he wasn't a billionaire.
00:16:20
For one thing, the his earning path is
00:16:23
highly suspect. I'll first tell you what
00:16:25
he was. What he was is a construct. He's
00:16:28
a created construct. Money, wealth,
00:16:31
private jet, private island, fun, not
00:16:34
married, young girls, lots of things.
00:16:37
So, he was a construct. the money uh
00:16:39
$500 million of money came from Les
00:16:42
Wexner who's a wealthy guy who uh owns
00:16:46
or owned I don't know what he's doing
00:16:47
now uh Victoria's Secret notator to the
00:16:51
state of Israel and $500 million was
00:16:53
transferred to Epstein along with power
00:16:56
of attorney to use it and invest it in
00:16:58
the ways he saw fit. Quite an unusual uh
00:17:00
you know I'm mildly wealthy but I'm not
00:17:02
sending you $500 million. I'll tell you
00:17:05
that the idea that you're that you're
00:17:07
doing this is itself extraordinary, but
00:17:09
it was probably the funding mechanism
00:17:12
for this construct. While it's a real
00:17:15
name, uh, Jeffrey Epstein and he has a
00:17:17
real birth certificate and grew up in a
00:17:19
real way, the picture that is presented
00:17:21
to the world is not authentic. It is not
00:17:24
accurate to who he was. And the more you
00:17:28
dig into this story, which of course
00:17:29
people are doing so much now because of
00:17:31
these uh 3 million uh documents so far
00:17:34
and videos by the way and photographs,
00:17:36
there's a lot of material there. The uh
00:17:38
it's very interesting to people right
00:17:40
now and and and more to be learned. But
00:17:42
you know what was actually going on? Why
00:17:45
in the world would anybody say, "Well,
00:17:46
there are national security implications
00:17:48
to some of this content. That's why some
00:17:51
things are redacted." What would that
00:17:52
be? Why would the prosecutor who
00:17:54
prosecuted him in Florida
00:17:58
and provided one of the most unusual
00:18:01
plea bargain deals in world history and
00:18:04
certainly unique in American history
00:18:06
which is imagine I've got you I'm a US
00:18:08
attorney I've got you on some crime and
00:18:10
you say okay I'm going to plead guilty
00:18:12
I'm going to serve my time but please
00:18:14
let my accountant go and please don't
00:18:17
prosecute my wife because all she did
00:18:19
was deliver the stuff and she didn't
00:18:20
wasn't involved in anything and so Those
00:18:22
are called unindicted co-conspirators.
00:18:25
So I make a deal with you and I say,
00:18:26
"Okay, you go to jail for the 8 months
00:18:28
and we will leave the unindicted
00:18:30
co-conspirators unindicted. We won't
00:18:32
prosecute your wife, your son, your your
00:18:35
accountant or what have you." That's a
00:18:36
very normal process. It's it's a it's a
00:18:38
bargaining process, basically. However,
00:18:42
in the Epstein case, the US attorney
00:18:44
gave him a deal that said uh that we
00:18:47
would not prosecute unnamed
00:18:50
co-conspirators.
00:18:51
Holy [ __ ] Who's that? Who's unnamed
00:18:54
co-conspirators? Unnamed co-conspirators
00:18:57
could be 50 people. It could be 75
00:18:59
people. The guy who gave that sweetheart
00:19:01
deal became the secretary of labor. He
00:19:05
was at that time the US attorney for for
00:19:07
Florida. He was asked, "Why did you give
00:19:09
that sweetheart deal?" Because the deal
00:19:11
is ridiculous. Unnamed co-conspirators
00:19:13
will be exempt from prosecution. And and
00:19:16
he said, "I was told he belonged to
00:19:18
intelligence." and then he had to resign
00:19:20
because of this. There was a lot going
00:19:22
on with with with Epstein uh the person
00:19:25
who I mean there's so much of this but
00:19:27
the person who uh sort of brought
00:19:30
Epstein into the world of power and got
00:19:33
him his job at I think Morgan Stanley I
00:19:36
could have that wrong but one of those
00:19:37
big finance companies was William Bar's
00:19:39
father. William Bar was the attorney
00:19:41
general who was the US attorney general
00:19:43
when Epstein was killed or died in
00:19:46
prison depending on your choice of of
00:19:49
reality. So there's so much there but I
00:19:52
won't be the first guest Steven that
00:19:54
you've had uh that says that um it was
00:19:57
an intelligence operation. Why the US
00:19:59
government is reluctant to be more uh
00:20:02
transparent? Some of it is national
00:20:04
security. Some of it is, let's imagine
00:20:07
an ally of ours, uh, is involved in in
00:20:10
that operation. So, there's a reluctance
00:20:12
and there's a question. It's a little
00:20:13
bit like UFOs. Could the public handle
00:20:16
it is the question that's always asked
00:20:18
in these cases. Meaning, could the
00:20:20
public handle it if, for example, the UK
00:20:23
was running an intelligence operation
00:20:25
inside the United States to control
00:20:28
senators and congressmen and powerful
00:20:31
executives and powerful figures and
00:20:33
scientists? Could we handle it? Could
00:20:35
the US public handle it? My take
00:20:36
personally, absolutely. Yes.
00:20:39
>> So, you believe that he was an
00:20:42
intelligence asset and it sounds like
00:20:44
you believe he was an intelligence asset
00:20:46
potentially by a US ally?
00:20:48
>> Yes.
00:20:49
>> So, who is that ally?
00:20:51
>> Israel.
00:20:52
>> You believe that Epstein was an Israel
00:20:55
>> intelligence asset?
00:20:56
>> Yes. Yes, I do. And uh and Glain
00:20:58
Maxwell, just for additional background,
00:21:00
but everybody can find it. Her father
00:21:02
was an Israeli intelligent asset who was
00:21:05
so revered. His funeral ceremony was
00:21:07
held in Israel, was attended by the
00:21:10
prime minister, by I think the last four
00:21:12
or five, by every living head of Mossad
00:21:15
attended. And there were words used in
00:21:18
eulogies like he did things for Israel
00:21:20
that uh the world will never know about.
00:21:23
There's a a lot of good connection there
00:21:24
and a lot of good connective tissue. Um,
00:21:27
some of which I've shared with you
00:21:29
because it's public and some of which
00:21:30
I'm not sharing, but that is uh that is
00:21:33
indeed what I believe. Yes. And
00:21:34
>> not just me, by the way. I you might
00:21:36
already be there. And you've certainly
00:21:38
had another guest sit here and and uh
00:21:40
former CIA guy uh Kira Cow, how do you
00:21:42
say his last name?
00:21:43
>> Yeah.
00:21:44
>> Uh am I close to
00:21:45
>> You're close. It's closer than I would
00:21:46
get.
00:21:46
>> Okay, good. And he was point blank in
00:21:49
saying Israel. So there's no there's no
00:21:51
direct evidence. But what people are
00:21:53
essentially doing is putting the pieces
00:21:54
together to make a picture.
00:21:56
>> There is direct evidence. There's just
00:21:57
not direct evidence I'm sharing at this
00:21:59
moment. But there's the there's plenty
00:22:01
of evidence that that has been public
00:22:03
already, some of which I've shared. I
00:22:04
mean, I could I could do it for 40
00:22:06
minutes, but everybody can just go to
00:22:07
chat GPT. And you know, if you ask Chad
00:22:09
GPT, make the best case for this. A good
00:22:13
thing for viewers to remember. Make the
00:22:15
best case for dot dot dot whatever it
00:22:17
is. If you ask
00:22:19
the first answer you get if you ask a
00:22:21
straight question will always be the
00:22:23
official narrative.
00:22:24
>> I've done exactly that because you said
00:22:25
it. I I asked Chi make the best case for
00:22:28
Epstein being an Israel spy. Here is
00:22:30
what it said. The case that Jeffrey
00:22:33
Epste functioned as an Israeli
00:22:34
intelligence asset rest on a pattern
00:22:37
alignment rather than direct proof. He
00:22:39
ran a sexual sexual compromise operation
00:22:41
resembling known intelligence compromat
00:22:45
tradecraft.
00:22:46
>> Compromat. Yeah, like it's a Russian
00:22:47
word that means we compromise you.
00:22:49
>> Had wealth and access far beyond his
00:22:51
formal career and operated with unusual
00:22:54
legal protection for years. His close
00:22:56
partnership with Gla Maxwell, whose
00:22:57
father had documented intelligence ties
00:22:59
fuel suspicion, as does reporting by
00:23:01
journalists who say Epstein's activities
00:23:03
were discussed in intelligence adjacent
00:23:04
circles. The cameras and the microphones
00:23:08
hidden in his apartment and his home.
00:23:12
How do we know they were there and why?
00:23:15
Well, how I know they were there is a
00:23:17
little bit different from how everybody
00:23:18
knows they were there. And I don't know
00:23:20
enough about the entire history of the
00:23:22
FBI piece, but I'll tell you a funny
00:23:24
part of the FBI piece. When they went to
00:23:26
execute a search warrant at that
00:23:28
apartment after his more recent arrest,
00:23:31
they found and even photographed a bunch
00:23:33
of CDROMs or discs of some kind that
00:23:36
were labeled, but they didn't take them.
00:23:38
They said, "We'll get a warrant and
00:23:39
we'll be back for those." and they came
00:23:41
back after a mere
00:23:44
six days and it was all gone. So where
00:23:48
it is, I don't know. Does the US
00:23:50
government have it? Does somebody else
00:23:52
have it? I just don't know the answer.
00:23:54
But I know from very direct information
00:23:57
regarding the island and the apartment.
00:23:59
I don't know about New Mexico. I just
00:24:00
don't happen to know. Another house that
00:24:02
he owned that there were cameras and
00:24:04
then eventually audio. Audio was added.
00:24:06
Oh, also testimony, by the way, pardon
00:24:08
me. testimony from girls who said girls
00:24:10
who worked there and visited there a lot
00:24:12
who said that in a small room near to
00:24:14
the right of the front door was a whole
00:24:17
thing of videos where the recording was
00:24:18
done.
00:24:19
>> And can you explain to me why recording
00:24:22
videos and audio of people getting those
00:24:25
kinds of uh doing those kinds of things
00:24:28
would be a useful asset for this foreign
00:24:33
adversary to have.
00:24:35
>> Sure. Uh, you know, blackmail is not
00:24:39
always done by calling you up and
00:24:41
saying, um, you know, hey, Stephen, I'm
00:24:45
going to hurt you in the following way
00:24:47
if you don't do A, B, or C. The other
00:24:49
version is is far better, which there's
00:24:52
is even alluded to in some of the now
00:24:54
released material, which is he calls and
00:24:56
he says, "Stephen, I've got terrible
00:24:59
news. Do you remember you had that
00:25:00
massage from Cindy? You know that girl,
00:25:02
Cindy?" "Oh, yeah. Yeah, I remember."
00:25:04
Well, she recorded something. She had
00:25:06
something in her bag. She made a
00:25:07
recording. And I got worse news.
00:25:09
Stephen, the girl's 16 and a half. And
00:25:12
now, by the way, you are stomach drops,
00:25:15
diarrhea. You are in a world of stress
00:25:18
right now just hearing that. And he,
00:25:20
instead of being your blackmailer,
00:25:23
becomes your rescuer. He says, "I can
00:25:24
handle it. I can handle it. I can handle
00:25:26
it. She's got the recordings. I don't
00:25:28
know where they are, but I can handle
00:25:29
it. I can handle it. I can handle it.
00:25:31
Don't worry. Don't worry. Don't worry."
00:25:32
And he owns you now. forever. If you
00:25:35
were involved in a naked experience with
00:25:38
someone who's underage, and there's a
00:25:40
video of it and audio of it as well, you
00:25:43
will do anything that you are asked to
00:25:46
do that is within reason. Very few
00:25:48
people would have the character and the
00:25:51
stamina to do what you describe Bezos
00:25:54
doing, which is that he wrote a public
00:25:56
letter saying, "A very unusual thing
00:25:59
happened to me the other day. I'm being
00:26:01
blackmailed by the National Enquirer."
00:26:03
and here's what they said. That's very,
00:26:06
very rare. And so, you know, a senator,
00:26:08
a congressman, he owned a lot of people.
00:26:13
Do you have any skepticism about that?
00:26:16
>> I
00:26:18
don't have skepticism. I just have a lot
00:26:21
of ignorance to how this whole world
00:26:23
works.
00:26:24
>> Lucky you.
00:26:24
>> And I just have a lot of ignorance to
00:26:26
like, you know, because you hear about
00:26:28
these things in almost like movies. And
00:26:30
uh it appears that we're all kind of
00:26:33
witnessing
00:26:35
something we might have regulated just
00:26:37
to the movies happened before our eyes.
00:26:39
And even when you know I saw some of the
00:26:41
emails coming up on my feed of things
00:26:43
that Epstein had emailed people, he
00:26:44
seemed to be continually inviting people
00:26:46
to hang out with him in a way that is
00:26:48
quite atypical. Now maybe I'm just an
00:26:50
introvert, but I'm not. He he was like
00:26:52
aggressive in his coms to people saying,
00:26:55
"Come and hang out with me. I'm doing
00:26:56
this thing at this dinner party. Come to
00:26:57
my island. Are you in the area?" and he
00:26:59
was succeeding in getting a lot of
00:27:00
people to come and visit his his homes
00:27:02
and his island. And yeah, it's uh
00:27:05
>> by the way, Stephen, in the circumstance
00:27:07
you are in today, you might well have
00:27:09
heard from from Jeffrey Epstein. You
00:27:11
might well have had somebody who knows
00:27:13
you who says, "Hey, there's this guy in
00:27:14
New York. Loves your show. Uh just
00:27:16
terrific." And and all of a sudden,
00:27:18
you're getting that invitation. And
00:27:20
you're getting that invitation through
00:27:22
someone you know and kind of like
00:27:23
>> like Joe Rogan did.
00:27:25
>> I don't know. But like so many people.
00:27:27
Well, Joe Rogan said it.
00:27:28
>> Oh, if he's been public about it, I'm
00:27:30
just not going to be the one to say it,
00:27:31
but I I got it.
00:27:32
>> Oh, okay. Yeah. Joe Rogan publicly la
00:27:34
last week said that, and it's in the
00:27:36
files, that a former guest, I think it
00:27:39
was Lawrence Krauss of his show, invited
00:27:42
him to come and meet Jeffrey Epstein.
00:27:44
And the emails show that Jeffrey Epstein
00:27:45
was trying to get Lawrence to bring Joe
00:27:47
Rogan in. Joe Rogan said like absolutely
00:27:50
abs well this what Joe Rogan's said
00:27:51
absolutely [ __ ] not,
00:27:52
>> right?
00:27:53
>> And was creeped out about it and never
00:27:54
went and was never involved. Well, the
00:27:56
point I was just making is that in your
00:27:58
present circumstance with the, you know,
00:28:00
enormous audience and and the reach of
00:28:02
this show and and all your work, the
00:28:03
small videos, etc. Um, of course you're
00:28:06
a terrific person because now I can call
00:28:08
you up and say, uh, hey, will you have
00:28:10
this person on? Or I can say, hey, will
00:28:12
you be really skeptical about this topic
00:28:14
and will you say, I don't believe it.
00:28:16
And will you say, I think it's wrong or
00:28:17
will you say, I think it's anti-semitism
00:28:19
or will you will you say such and such?
00:28:21
And brother, you will. the the moment
00:28:24
where I started to, you know, really
00:28:26
understand the blackmail angle um was
00:28:30
when I started reading some of the
00:28:31
particular emails that Epstein had sent
00:28:32
to himself.
00:28:34
>> One in particular where he sent himself
00:28:36
an email regarding Bill Gates. He's
00:28:38
alleging that Bill Gates has slept with
00:28:40
He's sending himself an email.
00:28:42
>> Yes.
00:28:43
>> Alleging that Bill Gates has slept with
00:28:44
someone, some some Russian prostitute,
00:28:47
and that he got an STD, an extrammarital
00:28:49
affair, all of these allegations. And
00:28:51
when I read that email, um, then I
00:28:53
thought, oh, you know, he was he was a
00:28:54
black mailer.
00:28:55
>> He was definitely a black mailer and
00:28:57
he's collected all these rich and famous
00:28:58
people and he has them in his pocket
00:29:01
now.
00:29:02
>> Just to close off then on this uh point
00:29:04
of Epstein before we move on, you said
00:29:05
they they've released some of the files
00:29:07
and you said they hadn't released other
00:29:09
files. Yes. And you have implied that
00:29:10
was because they basically can't
00:29:12
>> release these other files necessarily.
00:29:14
>> Well, I don't I don't know what I think
00:29:16
more is coming. I think more will be
00:29:18
released, but there are certainly files,
00:29:20
including files even right now, even
00:29:21
yesterday, though there's a law. Uh, as
00:29:24
you may know, Congress voted for a law
00:29:26
to release everything unredacted. Um,
00:29:29
there's still a lot of redacted stuff.
00:29:31
So, there's more to come. And, uh, will
00:29:33
some be redacted? Sure. Is anybody going
00:29:36
to sit here like I did today and say,
00:29:38
"Hi, I'm the secretary of blah blah
00:29:40
blah, and let me just tell you what was
00:29:41
really going on. Uh, you know, I'm the
00:29:43
head of the CIA, and let me tell you
00:29:44
what was really going on." Not likely.
00:29:46
>> But Trump knows. He knows who Jeffrey
00:29:49
Jeffrey Epstein really was.
00:29:51
>> I would say all senior people in the US
00:29:54
government and and many many people in
00:29:56
general know everything that you and I
00:29:58
have discussed here today.
00:30:00
>> No secret. By the way, what do you
00:30:02
think? Let's imagine somebody came
00:30:04
forward and said this country described
00:30:06
as our greatest ally. I would say our
00:30:08
greatest ally is the UK
00:30:10
>> uh based on on history. But, uh, Israel
00:30:13
is an important ally in the Middle East
00:30:15
and it's a it's a democracy and it's
00:30:17
more of a western government. I get it.
00:30:19
Um, but what do you think? The the the
00:30:21
country comes out and somebody
00:30:22
officially says, "Okay, let me tell you
00:30:24
what was going on." Do you think the
00:30:26
American public can handle it?
00:30:28
>> I think they either way now deserve to
00:30:32
know the truth.
00:30:34
Whether they can handle it or not is
00:30:36
probably secondary to whether they I
00:30:39
think people need to know the truth.
00:30:41
We've I think like the problem is people
00:30:42
have been like partially traumatized by
00:30:43
all of this stuff and so now I think the
00:30:46
remedy is full transparency.
00:30:49
>> I agree and by the way uh this is close
00:30:52
uh because we we got a lot of
00:30:53
information whereas you know 5 weeks ago
00:30:56
or or eight weeks ago people were saying
00:30:58
oh there's nothing more that's it that's
00:31:00
all there is. I mean, this is a big step
00:31:02
and I think it's a big step as big a
00:31:04
step toward transparency as uh probably
00:31:08
as I've seen in my lifetime by a
00:31:10
government. The exception would be if
00:31:12
it's not a government what Elon did
00:31:14
after buying Twitter, the release of the
00:31:16
Twitter files. That was a very
00:31:18
impressive thing of letting three
00:31:20
journalists come in and just go through
00:31:21
everything. I think it would be awesome
00:31:24
if the US government ever, Governments
00:31:27
don't do this very often, but if they
00:31:28
ever said, "Okay, everybody, put on your
00:31:30
seat belt. I'm going to tell you exactly
00:31:32
what happened with the JFK assassination
00:31:34
or exactly what happened with the
00:31:35
assassination of Robert F. Kennedy,
00:31:38
Senator Robert F. Kennedy, when he ran
00:31:39
for president." There are some examples
00:31:41
of this in US history where it feels
00:31:43
like after about 25 years, we'll start
00:31:47
telling the truth about something. 50
00:31:48
years ago, Johnson and Johnson went to
00:31:52
uh to the FDA and they said, "Look, our
00:31:54
baby powder, you know, that stuff that
00:31:56
you put on the baby and you breathe and
00:31:57
the mother breathes. Well, it's got
00:32:00
asbestous in it and it causes cancer."
00:32:02
And the FDA said, "Well, thanks for
00:32:04
bringing this to our attention. We'll
00:32:05
begin to study how much asbestous is an
00:32:07
allowable amount." Now, they never
00:32:09
considered zero, which is what I'd want
00:32:11
on my baby or you'd want on your baby.
00:32:13
and they began to study and then they
00:32:14
studied for a while and they studied for
00:32:16
a while and lo and behold 40 years had
00:32:18
gone by and they hadn't come out with a
00:32:20
ruling to say there shouldn't be any
00:32:22
asbestous in in Johnson and Johnson baby
00:32:25
powder when did they come out with that
00:32:27
ruling by the way last year end of 2024
00:32:31
after 52 years. So at the beginning the
00:32:35
government is saying asbestous no what
00:32:37
are you talking about Agent Orange the
00:32:40
same story Agent Orange material used in
00:32:42
Vietnam for defoliation uh hurt people
00:32:46
killed people and caused birth defects
00:32:47
in their kids including American
00:32:49
soldiers lots of them the government
00:32:51
knew it they had tested it on 40 lab
00:32:55
mice and lab mice don't have a good life
00:32:57
generally anyway they don't have good
00:32:58
life expectancy but in this case 38 died
00:33:01
within 5 days what the government do
00:33:04
with that information? Oh, put that in a
00:33:05
top secret file and get rid of that. And
00:33:07
then it sits for a long, long time and
00:33:10
the Institute of Medicine says, "Agent
00:33:12
Orange hurting people. What are you
00:33:13
talking about?" No. And they lie and
00:33:15
they lie and they lie and then finally
00:33:18
20 25 years later, okay, yeah, sorry, we
00:33:21
were wrong. It does it does cause birth
00:33:23
defects. You see that same story with uh
00:33:25
breast implants, silicone breast
00:33:27
implants. You see that same story with
00:33:29
uh baby formula uh with baby food which
00:33:34
has arsenic in it. I don't want any
00:33:36
arsenic in baby food but deny deny deny
00:33:38
deny and we'll see it with mass
00:33:40
vaccination because after some years
00:33:43
there will be okay yes there is a good
00:33:45
chance that it causes myocarditis
00:33:47
already been admitted by the way
00:33:49
pericarditis uh cancer in young people
00:33:52
it it was a bad product sorry but they
00:33:54
won't do it a year away from a thing and
00:33:57
they obviously as we can see every day
00:33:59
they won't do it five years away it's
00:34:01
very easy to see and to locate when the
00:34:04
US government or any power center. This
00:34:06
is I'm an American. I'm all for America.
00:34:08
But all power centers in human history
00:34:11
uh lie. Knowing that they are lying does
00:34:14
not tell you the truth, however. Meaning
00:34:16
knowing that Oswald did not act alone as
00:34:19
a shooter from the sixth floor of the
00:34:21
Texas Book Depository, if he was a
00:34:23
shooter at all. Knowing that does not
00:34:25
tell you who was the shooter. So often
00:34:28
the best we can get in our skepticism is
00:34:31
to know that we are not being told the
00:34:33
truth. When I grew up, I felt I feel
00:34:35
like I was very naive to the nature of
00:34:37
how the world really operates. And the
00:34:39
more I've done podcasts and frankly, you
00:34:41
know, you you you get invited to
00:34:42
interesting things and you meet like
00:34:44
rich people and famous people and
00:34:45
billionaires. And I went to Davos this
00:34:47
year, which I think people think makes
00:34:48
me some kind of like I don't know, I
00:34:50
wasn't if there was if the Illuminati at
00:34:51
Davos, they didn't invite me into that
00:34:53
room. But I got to like I got to see
00:34:54
like really powerful people and world
00:34:55
leaders and all those kinds of things.
00:34:57
And I've sat here and interviewed so
00:34:58
many CIA spies and I've learned that
00:35:01
there are things going on out of plain
00:35:04
sight. So the version of reality that
00:35:07
the average person has as they go
00:35:09
through their life, how has the work
00:35:11
you've done over the last several
00:35:12
decades of your career shifted your
00:35:14
belief about the version of reality that
00:35:16
actually exists? Like how how are they
00:35:18
different?
00:35:19
>> So I I can I can answer it easily
00:35:20
because I was just like you. I would say
00:35:22
I was naive. And in fact, by the way, I
00:35:24
want to quickly acknowledge that I'm
00:35:26
probably naive today, even with what
00:35:28
you've heard, because there may be a
00:35:29
level above the level above the level
00:35:31
above that that I'm not seeing or I'm
00:35:34
choosing not to see. I can tell you the
00:35:36
exact evolution for me, not dissimilar
00:35:38
to you. I grew up in the 50s and 60s. I
00:35:42
believe the courts will always come up
00:35:43
with a fair decision. I believe that the
00:35:46
IRS will only collect uh money and
00:35:48
destroy people with good reason, and
00:35:50
they won't do it with bad reason. I
00:35:52
believed everything and the a lot of it
00:35:54
right up until co by the way right up
00:35:56
until seeing what went on with both mass
00:35:59
vaccination and the the mass control
00:36:01
through fear here's what I want to tell
00:36:03
you I've learned it's not that um
00:36:07
unusual I think I think it's easy to to
00:36:10
embrace which is that are human beings
00:36:13
the same as they were a thousand years
00:36:15
ago are human beings the same as they
00:36:17
were in Caesar's time what did Caesar do
00:36:19
by the way pick a a Roman emperor.
00:36:23
Whatever the [ __ ] they wanted to do,
00:36:26
they had sex with who and what they
00:36:27
wanted. 8 years old, 10 years old, boy,
00:36:30
girl, whatever it may be. Even in King
00:36:32
Farooq's time in Egypt, one of the last
00:36:33
kings of of Egypt, if you were a house
00:36:36
guest, they'd say to you, you know what?
00:36:37
We're going to have dinner at 6. We can
00:36:39
send somebody to your room. Do you want
00:36:40
a young boy or a young girl? No shame to
00:36:43
it. No problem whatsoever. The rich and
00:36:46
powerful people like the ones you were
00:36:48
describing at Davos often go from, "I
00:36:51
already have all the money. I've already
00:36:52
had all the fame. I've already had all
00:36:54
the influence. What do I want to do
00:36:56
now?" And sometimes they want to do
00:36:58
forbidden things. Have an affair. Keep a
00:37:01
girl in an apartment. These are easy,
00:37:03
right? Uh, cheat on my wife. These are
00:37:06
easy still. 14-year-old girl. Uh-oh. Not
00:37:09
getting so easy anymore, but I've done
00:37:11
all the other stuff. And that's what the
00:37:13
Epstein piece appeals to, which is the
00:37:15
forbidden. I want to be very concise in
00:37:18
in answering this question about what
00:37:20
changed uh in terms of my view, how I've
00:37:22
gotten, you know, started where I
00:37:24
started. First of all, I worked in
00:37:25
government, worked in the Reagan
00:37:26
administration. I lied. I did things
00:37:29
that were lies that were deceitful
00:37:30
several times in my career. Uh I can
00:37:32
give you examples in a minute if you
00:37:34
want, but uh you know to to make a
00:37:36
prosecution work. I I reached a bit uh
00:37:39
to get somebody some bad guy who was
00:37:41
trying to kill a client uh you know uh
00:37:43
prosecuted or or in in custody for a
00:37:46
longer period of time. Um I was in many
00:37:48
meetings where the questions were this
00:37:51
thing happened not how shall we tell the
00:37:54
public but what shall we tell the
00:37:57
public? How shall we spin this thing?
00:37:59
This is the norm in every corporate uh
00:38:02
boardroom in America. It's not, oh,
00:38:04
there's there's a cancer causing
00:38:07
asbestous in the baby powder. I guess we
00:38:08
better let everybody know. That's not
00:38:10
the meeting. The meeting is, let's
00:38:12
notify the FDA and say it's under study.
00:38:15
And so if we get asked, we'll get get
00:38:17
through this thing. Who goes to jail, by
00:38:19
the way, in these corporations for the
00:38:20
[ __ ] they do, opioids, etc. My god, a
00:38:23
100,000 people dying from heart attacks
00:38:25
from from a pain pill, for example. Uh
00:38:28
Vio for God's sake. Uh the I mean it's
00:38:32
it's unbelievable and nobody gets in
00:38:34
trouble, right? Companies are fined. Do
00:38:37
you know what the fines mean to these
00:38:38
companies? In in that new book I gave
00:38:40
you, Forbidden Facts, I I lay out what
00:38:42
all the pharma companies have been fined
00:38:45
criminally, what it cost them and what
00:38:47
they made nonetheless, right? And of
00:38:49
course they made the right decision
00:38:51
because financially they they did very
00:38:52
well. But I want to get to the concise
00:38:54
part. Look at world history as a pie
00:38:56
chart, right? The entire thing is
00:39:00
tyranny as a government method, as a
00:39:03
control method. Just a tiny sliver is uh
00:39:06
representative democracy. A little bit
00:39:09
starting in Greece, uh Western Europe,
00:39:11
the United States, tiny sliver. So our
00:39:14
norm, Stephen, is tyranny. That is the
00:39:17
norm for human beings. And what happens
00:39:19
to that tiny sliver that I'm describing?
00:39:21
That tiny sliver always moves toward
00:39:23
totalitarianism.
00:39:24
>> What does that mean? It means that the
00:39:26
the representative democracy we have
00:39:28
let's say in the UK which is pretty
00:39:31
stressed right now in terms of of
00:39:33
freedom of speech or in the United
00:39:35
States moves toward totalitarianism in
00:39:38
that it says it starts with we pass a
00:39:40
law and if you know the the US
00:39:43
constitution says if there isn't a law
00:39:46
prohibiting it you can do it and for
00:39:49
government it says if there isn't a law
00:39:52
allowing it you cannot do it that's the
00:39:55
US constitute itution. That's the US
00:39:56
method. Well, look what it's become. A
00:39:58
law gets passed and then regulators,
00:40:01
unelected officials, go [ __ ] nuts on
00:40:05
interpreting that law the way they want
00:40:06
to and applying it the way they want to.
00:40:09
And so the the it moves toward
00:40:11
totalitarianism. 40,000 new laws passed
00:40:14
in the United States every year. How
00:40:16
many rescended? Almost none.
00:40:18
>> So where are we now?
00:40:20
here in the United States where we both
00:40:22
asked that or in the UK where are we in
00:40:24
the arc of history because it kind of
00:40:26
does seem to move in sort of cycles
00:40:28
>> now the we if you're talking about where
00:40:30
are we now like western society or the
00:40:32
US empire in decline
00:40:35
and first of all is it an empire
00:40:38
obviously right we have 760
00:40:41
military bases overseas 760 we have a
00:40:45
larger budget for what we call defense
00:40:48
now called war since Trump has changed
00:40:50
the name to Department of War more
00:40:52
accurately. Um, we have a larger budget
00:40:55
than every other country in the world
00:40:58
combined for military spending. How many
00:41:01
overseas bases does China have? I think
00:41:03
it's one. Now, I'm not saying China's
00:41:05
all lovely. I'm just saying they have a
00:41:07
different method. They have a method
00:41:08
closer to what we had in the 60s, which
00:41:11
was to come in with with beneficial
00:41:12
help. We'll redo your roads, etc., etc.
00:41:14
So, we're an empire and we're an empire
00:41:17
in decline. And a moment ago when I said
00:41:20
that that tyranny is the normal state of
00:41:22
affairs for uh how people are governed.
00:41:26
How is it exercised? Through fear.
00:41:29
Always through fear. Fear is the method
00:41:31
that causes division. And division is
00:41:33
the fuel of power. Meaning you want the
00:41:36
population to be divided. You want the
00:41:39
left and the right. You want the the uh
00:41:41
Trumpers and the and the and the
00:41:43
Democrats and the forever Trumpers and
00:41:45
the never Trumpers. Division is the fuel
00:41:48
that all world leaders relish. I give
00:41:52
you the example in the cleanest terms.
00:41:54
The king and the queen look over the
00:41:56
castle wall and when they see their
00:41:59
subjects fighting, they high-five each
00:42:02
other because if the if they're fighting
00:42:05
with each other, they're not coming over
00:42:07
the wall. And there's always a wall. And
00:42:09
but if they're not fighting with each
00:42:11
other, that's a big problem because then
00:42:14
they're coming over the wall because
00:42:15
everybody knows in their heart, wait a
00:42:18
minute, these [ __ ] are living in
00:42:19
absolute luxury while I don't I can't
00:42:22
afford to feed my kids. They their their
00:42:25
motorcades and today and in those days
00:42:27
they're, you know, beautiful ornate uh
00:42:31
wagons pulled by by a bunch of horses go
00:42:33
by and splatter mud on me in the street.
00:42:37
What really is the difference? I mean,
00:42:38
royalty is such a [ __ ] scam.
00:42:41
>> So, what happens to the Western world if
00:42:43
we're in a declining empire?
00:42:45
>> I give you the the optimistic version
00:42:47
because I have a dear friend happens to
00:42:49
live in Cape Town who helps me with this
00:42:51
sometimes because like anybody when I
00:42:53
look a lot at uh at at what happens, I
00:42:58
can get discouraged. I can get cynical.
00:43:00
It's not a good place to live. I think
00:43:02
uh Tony maybe even he said it on your
00:43:04
show Tony Robbins which is uh you know
00:43:06
that what you focus on will determine uh
00:43:09
the quality of your life. So I can focus
00:43:11
on the pharma companies and all the [ __ ]
00:43:13
they're doing or I can focus on on the
00:43:15
beauty of of nature and spend more time
00:43:17
in nature and spend more time with my
00:43:19
kids etc. So my optimistic answer which
00:43:22
comes from a dear friend Nick Hudson in
00:43:24
in Cape Town is that even if empires
00:43:28
decay and and social decay is is outside
00:43:32
this studio. It's in London. It's in New
00:43:35
York. It's in Los Angeles. It's in
00:43:36
Seattle. It's in Portland. It's
00:43:37
unavoidable. Take a drive in Los
00:43:39
Angeles. You know it. Every freeway
00:43:42
on-ramp, not some. Every single one of
00:43:45
them has tents underneath it with people
00:43:47
living there. That is not good news. And
00:43:50
so, but here's the good news part of it.
00:43:52
The optimistic part of it is that
00:43:54
survival and thriving always prevails
00:43:57
and it does not rely on these systems.
00:44:00
Meaning, you are who you are as a in the
00:44:03
spiritual sense or or in the scientific
00:44:05
sense, whatever way you want to look at
00:44:06
yourself as a as a collection of energy
00:44:08
that doesn't need that body by the way,
00:44:11
right? The energy doesn't go anywhere
00:44:12
when that body is done. Uh meaning it's
00:44:15
the energy is still there. It's not
00:44:16
destructible. And uh so it's
00:44:18
indestructible. So um you are this this
00:44:22
being this awareness this consciousness.
00:44:25
And if around us when we go outside here
00:44:28
today all the buildings are gone and and
00:44:30
social decay has accelerated are we
00:44:32
going to be okay? And the answer is yes.
00:44:35
What happens now? We're living in the
00:44:37
forest and now I say Stephen you're
00:44:39
pretty good at carpentry right? Come
00:44:41
join us. And you say you're good at
00:44:42
planting sweet potatoes. We need some of
00:44:45
that. Let's do that. and small
00:44:47
populations of people begin again,
00:44:50
commence again, even after nuclear war,
00:44:53
after a variety of things. And I know
00:44:55
it's crazy to some people, but I take my
00:44:58
my hope and my optimism from that fact,
00:45:02
which is that it doesn't rely upon the
00:45:05
electricity working. It doesn't rely
00:45:08
upon the plumbing working and the sewage
00:45:10
system working. And eventually there's
00:45:12
enough of the earth, natural earth, for
00:45:15
us to do what has happened before, which
00:45:17
is start again. Give you a very fast
00:45:19
aspect of this. Thousand years ago,
00:45:22
there's a thousand little governments.
00:45:25
There's shoguns in Japan. There's
00:45:27
villages. There's a guy has 300 people
00:45:29
and he's the chief. Then it becomes what
00:45:32
it was in your life and my life, which
00:45:34
is about 190 countries. But those 190
00:45:37
countries are really about five power
00:45:39
centers, right? There's NATO, there's
00:45:42
there's Brexit, there's the the oil
00:45:45
producing countries. And eventually that
00:45:47
five power centers will come to two
00:45:51
power centers. The West, US, and China
00:45:54
is my prediction, but it'll be somebody
00:45:56
else's prediction. Can do it
00:45:57
differently. And then those two [ __ ]
00:45:58
are standing in a room together. And one
00:46:00
has to kill the other. That's the course
00:46:02
of history. That's how it goes. That's
00:46:05
how it goes in every geographical area
00:46:07
in history, which is we've got 30
00:46:08
villages and if I can find your village,
00:46:10
we'll take the women, we'll take the
00:46:12
children, and we'll kill the men. And
00:46:14
it's just a matter of math. How many of
00:46:17
there are of you and how many are there
00:46:19
of of our group? It's I think it's
00:46:21
somewhat inconceivable especially for
00:46:23
people of my generation to think that
00:46:24
the US is at all at some point going to
00:46:26
be at war with China because we've never
00:46:29
you know we never experienced a world
00:46:31
war but because the stakes are now so
00:46:33
high with nuclear weapons a war
00:46:36
theoretically wouldn't be like previous
00:46:37
wars it would be catastrophic.
00:46:41
>> So it's it's unimaginable. Some people
00:46:42
say now nuclear wars have sorry nuclear
00:46:45
weapons have now stopped us from getting
00:46:47
into World War II as easily and
00:46:49
therefore it won't happen.
00:46:50
>> Yes. Some people believe in that general
00:46:51
concept of mutually assured destruction
00:46:53
which is that neither side will will do
00:46:55
it. But you said it's almost impossible
00:46:57
for you to imagine or words to that
00:46:59
effect. Um uh I want to help you uh with
00:47:03
that imagining and it goes like this. We
00:47:06
are currently at war with Russia. We are
00:47:08
not supporting the the war in Ukraine
00:47:12
only. We are at war with Russia because
00:47:14
we are providing satellite information,
00:47:17
electronic warfare strategies, drone
00:47:20
strategies, providing targeting
00:47:22
information, and that is war today. That
00:47:26
is war. War is not just the guys on the
00:47:29
battlefield with rifles. That's the
00:47:31
low-end element. The high-end element is
00:47:34
supersonic missiles, which Russia has,
00:47:36
and the high-end element is intel and
00:47:39
satellite technology. and the wide
00:47:42
variety of things that are going on,
00:47:43
some of which aren't even in the news,
00:47:45
by the way, that go on in Russia and
00:47:47
they say, "Oh shit." Uh, or that go on
00:47:49
in Ukraine and they say, "Oh [ __ ] the
00:47:51
Russians have figured out that thing."
00:47:53
But the US is so far beyond other
00:47:56
countries in the world in terms of
00:47:57
technology. And so that is war with
00:48:00
Russia. And you could say that our war
00:48:02
with North Vietnam was war with China.
00:48:05
But now there's just no question about
00:48:07
it. So that was a long answer, Stephen,
00:48:10
to say I want to get you your
00:48:11
imagination closer. We're already at war
00:48:14
with Russia.
00:48:16
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Steven. It will be a game changer for
00:50:25
you.
00:50:27
Speaking of crazy weapons, I was um I
00:50:29
was reading about a story where you did
00:50:31
a a tour with the CIA and they showed
00:50:33
you a mechanical dragonfly.
00:50:35
>> Yeah.
00:50:36
>> With a battery. What What did they show
00:50:38
you?
00:50:38
>> Well, I've given a I've had a lot to do
00:50:40
with with the agency that's been that's
00:50:42
been public over the years. And I was
00:50:44
giving a talk and then afterwards they
00:50:46
took me on a tour to a CIA museum. They
00:50:49
showed me a lot of things. Oh, here's
00:50:50
the helmet that was worn by that pilot
00:50:52
who was shot down over Russia named
00:50:54
Powers. all kinds of interesting
00:50:56
memorabilia and one of them was a little
00:50:58
dragonfly the size of a dragonfly and it
00:51:01
was um mechanical and I looked at it
00:51:04
real closely and thought wow that that's
00:51:06
really fantastic it's very interesting
00:51:08
and he said you don't have any questions
00:51:09
at all I said no I mean I I get it and
00:51:13
he said why don't you ask me when it was
00:51:14
built U and I said okay when was it
00:51:17
built 1967
00:51:20
in 1967 before we had any
00:51:22
miniaturaturized electronics or motoriis
00:51:25
ization. The CIA had built that little
00:51:27
thing and uh and it was a a little
00:51:30
camera that would fly around in here as
00:51:31
a dragonfly and then uh and then you
00:51:34
know fly home and I don't know how many
00:51:36
pictures it held but it's an interesting
00:51:39
piece I want to share with you about AI
00:51:41
which is people wonder you know how
00:51:43
sophisticated is AI and and where is it
00:51:45
my belief is that everything we have
00:51:49
access to like AI we probably have
00:51:52
something that the US intelligence had
00:51:55
10 years ago. We're probably dealing
00:51:57
with something quite old already.
00:51:59
>> I'm just looking at the a picture of
00:52:01
this dragon.
00:52:02
>> Oh, I didn't even know it was public.
00:52:03
>> Um, this
00:52:04
>> that's the [ __ ] There he is.
00:52:06
>> This little thing here.
00:52:07
>> Yeah.
00:52:08
>> And you know, this was made, as you say,
00:52:09
what 50 years ago. So, one can only
00:52:12
imagine the type of technology they have
00:52:14
now.
00:52:14
>> Oh, of course.
00:52:15
>> I mean, they pro they don't even need to
00:52:16
fly a dragonfly in because we have all
00:52:18
these electronic devices.
00:52:19
>> Of course, they can they can turn on our
00:52:21
devices. probably your watch if it's a
00:52:23
an Apple watch but certainly your phone
00:52:26
uh and u yeah uh the we are
00:52:29
participating in I won't even call it an
00:52:32
experiment but a process that you read
00:52:35
1984 I'm sure and most of your audience
00:52:37
did I was very heartened during the
00:52:40
beginning of co that 1984 became the
00:52:44
17th bestselling book in the world in
00:52:46
the English language
00:52:48
>> telling me ah people are paying
00:52:50
attention they see that what they're
00:52:52
experiencing here has a degree of 1984
00:52:55
to it. I think all science fiction
00:52:57
stories come true. I really do. I see it
00:52:59
time after time. What advice would you
00:53:02
give to my listeners about how to
00:53:04
navigate in the world we're living in
00:53:06
today, you know, to avoid risk, threat,
00:53:09
you know, whether that's of our soft
00:53:10
tissue as you said or just with our
00:53:12
privacy or lives generally. Like where
00:53:13
does the advice start? You said you
00:53:14
raised 10 kids.
00:53:15
>> Yeah.
00:53:16
>> What advice are you giving to your 10
00:53:17
kids? Uh well they they all know that
00:53:21
their dad is a big proponent uh and and
00:53:24
my first book which is still a a very uh
00:53:27
big book the gift of fear that book is I
00:53:30
think still the bestselling book in the
00:53:31
world on violence after 25 years and um
00:53:34
that book is all about intuition and
00:53:38
personal responsibility. So the very
00:53:40
first thing I would say to your
00:53:42
listeners, to you to remind myself as
00:53:45
well is that human beings did not get
00:53:47
the biggest claws or the biggest teeth
00:53:50
or the biggest muscles. We got the
00:53:51
biggest brains relative to our size. And
00:53:54
the nuclear defense system that all
00:53:57
human beings have is intuition. Much
00:53:59
different from logic. Intuition, the
00:54:01
root of it, by the way, I learned when I
00:54:03
was writing that book, is in tear, which
00:54:06
means to guard and to protect. So
00:54:08
intuition when you think about it, oh, I
00:54:09
just have a feeling I should go back to
00:54:11
the apartment and doublech checkck such
00:54:12
and such. Did I leave the fire on on the
00:54:14
pot? And you go back and you open the
00:54:17
the door and you didn't leave the fire
00:54:19
on the pot, but something else will
00:54:22
always be going on that makes you glad
00:54:24
you came back. I believe that intuition
00:54:26
is always right in at least two ways.
00:54:29
One, it always has your best interest at
00:54:31
heart. It's not [ __ ] with you. It's
00:54:33
giving you real information that's
00:54:35
valuable. And and number two, uh it's
00:54:38
always based on something. And so our
00:54:40
journey is to figure out when I have an
00:54:42
intuitive feeling like do this show with
00:54:45
you, who knows why, but when I have that
00:54:48
intuitive feeling, and by the way, I
00:54:49
don't do most shows. I don't know what
00:54:51
the reason is. I don't know what it'll
00:54:53
be. I mean, I can make up one with
00:54:54
logic, right? I like that guy. I learned
00:54:56
a lot from his shows. I can create a
00:54:58
case. I can make a case for anything.
00:55:00
But if it's just based on what I feel
00:55:02
and everything you've succeeded at and
00:55:05
accomplished was based on what you felt.
00:55:07
It was based on intuition. In America,
00:55:09
in the West, we think we're doing it by
00:55:11
logic, right? I do a big PowerPoint
00:55:14
presentation and I say to the board,
00:55:15
"Here's the reason. Here's why, and
00:55:17
here's the percentages." And they say,
00:55:18
"Oh, good." The board at corporations in
00:55:22
America would actually prefer that I use
00:55:24
logic even if I'm wrong instead of using
00:55:27
intuition even if I'm right. So when I
00:55:30
say to you, no, I just think it's the
00:55:31
right thing to do. I I think it'd be
00:55:32
smart. I think it'll be it'll really
00:55:34
work out like something like Amazon
00:55:36
Prime that people opposed and then it's
00:55:39
like 175 million people just in America
00:55:42
are using it. Big success. Intuitive
00:55:44
process, not a not a logic process.
00:55:47
Logic is weak and plotting. Logic does A
00:55:51
B C D. Intuition does A to Z instantly.
00:55:56
And you don't know why. It's knowing
00:55:58
without knowing why. I don't feel good
00:56:00
about that person. I'm I'm gonna back I
00:56:02
I said I was going to make this business
00:56:03
deal. I'm backing out of it. I said I
00:56:05
was going to show up to that thing. I'm
00:56:06
calling and cancelling. And by the way,
00:56:08
cancelling one of my favorite things. I
00:56:10
recommend it to everybody. I recommend
00:56:12
cancelling and postponing to everybody I
00:56:14
know. You are not obligated to keep your
00:56:16
plans. You made a plan 3 months ago and
00:56:19
you don't know who you'll even be or if
00:56:21
you or them or anybody will even be
00:56:23
alive 3 months from now. There's nothing
00:56:25
wrong with cancelling. Now I don't do it
00:56:27
rudely by the way but just to finish on
00:56:28
you know sort of what your listen your
00:56:30
your viewers uh and listeners can do is
00:56:33
that is to really fall in love with
00:56:35
intuition and to learn the way you
00:56:37
communicate with yourself. The there's
00:56:39
signals from intuition. Curiosity you
00:56:42
just wonder something. Suspicion
00:56:46
worry can even be a signal of intuition.
00:56:49
Um but the biggest one is true fear.
00:56:52
When you feel true fearh I don't want to
00:56:54
do this. I wanted to ask you a question
00:56:56
about this. I met with Magnus Carlson
00:56:58
who is the arguably the best chess
00:57:00
player in the world. And I met with him
00:57:02
after spending some time in Cape Town
00:57:03
writing about gut instinct and
00:57:05
intuition, all these kinds of things.
00:57:06
And one of the things that I learned
00:57:09
through my writing was that in in many
00:57:11
cases when someone has really
00:57:13
well-trained intuition, their first
00:57:15
thought is the right thought. And
00:57:18
actually, if you give them longer to
00:57:19
think about the problem, they make a
00:57:20
worse decision. So when I met Magnus
00:57:22
Carlson as a as the number one chess
00:57:25
player in the world backstage, we were
00:57:27
both on stage together. I said to him, I
00:57:28
said, "Listen, I got a question to ask
00:57:29
you. Do you basically now just run off
00:57:32
intuition or do you think?" And he said,
00:57:34
"My first thought is nearly always
00:57:35
right." So actually, I spend the other
00:57:37
time just confirming the first sort of
00:57:40
intuition that I had. And actually, I
00:57:43
was telling him about a dodgeball game
00:57:46
where they got dodgeball players,
00:57:48
professional dodgeball players, to look
00:57:49
at a frozen image of a dodgeball game
00:57:52
and said, "Where would you throw the
00:57:52
ball?"
00:57:53
>> And when they gave them little time to
00:57:55
decide, they made a better decision.
00:57:57
When they just went with their first gut
00:57:58
instinct, they made a better decision.
00:58:00
They unfroze it and it was the right
00:58:01
throw. If they gave them longer,
00:58:03
>> they made the worst decision. And the
00:58:05
the sort of caveat and I guess the
00:58:07
question for you is it appeared to me
00:58:09
that you almost have to train the
00:58:10
intuition. Like areas in our life where
00:58:12
we've got multiple reps and pattern
00:58:14
recognition, our intuition is valuable.
00:58:16
But then in other areas of our life
00:58:17
where we haven't trained the muscle yet,
00:58:21
we can make bad decisions. One such
00:58:22
example would just be like the first
00:58:24
time you start hiring people.
00:58:25
>> You don't have a trained intuition yet.
00:58:27
So you go, "Yeah, she seems nice." But
00:58:29
then you get I'm probably been hiring
00:58:30
thousands of people for 15 years now and
00:58:33
I get you know I get an intuition. So do
00:58:36
you have to train your intuition?
00:58:37
>> Well I think it happens automatically as
00:58:39
you as you live life that new
00:58:41
distinctions are added. Um but I also
00:58:44
believe that uh it is a natural
00:58:47
resource. I could think of it in a
00:58:49
spiritual sense. It's very hard to
00:58:51
figure out why we feel a certain way and
00:58:54
we do what what Magnus said which is we
00:58:56
get our answer and then we backtrack and
00:58:58
see if it fits. Right. I think the
00:59:00
training that's necessary, Stephen, is
00:59:02
not the training to uh improve your
00:59:05
intuition. Uh but rather the training to
00:59:08
listen to it and to not interrogate it
00:59:10
and to not prosecute it. Because I'll
00:59:13
give you an example. A woman is working
00:59:15
late at night in a in an office building
00:59:17
like this. She's on the 10th floor.
00:59:19
She's leaving. She pushes the button for
00:59:20
the elevator. The elevator door opens
00:59:22
up. Inside the elevator is a man who
00:59:26
causes her fear. She doesn't like it for
00:59:29
whatever reason. Obviously, she has no
00:59:32
opportunity yet to assess all the
00:59:34
issues. What's he dressed like? What's
00:59:36
he look like? What did I hear 3 weeks
00:59:38
ago about a guy who wore a blue cap and
00:59:40
t-shirt and she doesn't have any time
00:59:42
for her first reaction was like that.
00:59:44
What does she do? Most women, they get
00:59:47
into a steel soundproof chamber
00:59:51
with someone they're afraid of. And
00:59:53
there's not another animal in nature
00:59:55
that will do it. Now, why does she do
00:59:57
it? Because the thought comes, oh, I
01:00:00
don't want him to think I'm a racist
01:00:02
because he's Hispanic or I don't want to
01:00:05
be that kind of person or I don't want
01:00:07
this reality to be true, so I'm going to
01:00:11
act like it's not true. Right? And what
01:00:13
I say is let the door close in his face.
01:00:17
No problem. If you've got the signal, uh
01:00:20
that's a lowcost decision. Wait for the
01:00:22
next elevator. Right? That's a very
01:00:23
lowcost issue. Now, there are so many
01:00:26
examples of this in my work where I
01:00:28
interviewed people who had been
01:00:30
victimized. And time after time, they
01:00:32
would tell me, I knew when I walked into
01:00:35
that underground parking lot that that
01:00:37
was the same car that I'd seen earlier.
01:00:39
I knew when I met that guy such and
01:00:41
such. In fact, there's a beautiful a
01:00:43
woman who wrote me the most beautiful
01:00:45
thing. I I think it's in in Gift of Fear
01:00:48
or or it's in one of the subsequent
01:00:49
books. And she said that she would look
01:00:51
at her lifelong diary. She'd kept a
01:00:53
lifelong diary and she looked back at it
01:00:56
and it would say met this guy um feel a
01:00:59
little queasy about him, not so sure,
01:01:01
dated him,
01:01:04
married him. And then she what she wrote
01:01:06
to me was she said again and again I
01:01:09
could see there it was in my diary
01:01:12
listen to this the ending embedded in
01:01:14
the beginning and so what I encourage
01:01:17
people to do going to your original
01:01:18
answer is how people can be safer is
01:01:21
listen to their intuition know that its
01:01:23
function is to protect you that's what
01:01:25
it's doing when I was reading about your
01:01:27
work on intuition and your perspective
01:01:29
on it I it got me thinking about people
01:01:30
in my life that I
01:01:32
>> have to get rid of tomorrow
01:01:35
Well, actually that I have you know that
01:01:37
little alarm bell in your head when you
01:01:39
have you have a little alarm bell
01:01:40
intuition like I don't know what the
01:01:42
answer is but I feel like something
01:01:44
isn't right
01:01:45
>> and that little alarm bell in my head
01:01:46
I'm like so what do I do about that? And
01:01:48
I think there was one particular example
01:01:50
I was thinking of where I was getting
01:01:52
this little vibe from someone that
01:01:54
something was just off. And then 3
01:01:57
months later, we were at this event and
01:02:01
they started opening up about their
01:02:03
childhood.
01:02:04
And in the course of opening up about
01:02:06
their childhood, I learned something
01:02:08
about their mother and something their
01:02:11
mother used to do to them.
01:02:13
>> And they were talking to someone else
01:02:14
about this behavior that it's created in
01:02:16
them. M
01:02:17
>> it suddenly all made sense. That thing
01:02:19
that was giving me was making me feel
01:02:21
like the vibe was off. I think now is
01:02:24
because of something from their
01:02:25
childhood that I didn't actually know
01:02:27
which meant they have this behavior
01:02:28
which will make you feel a little bit
01:02:29
uncomfortable.
01:02:30
>> And in that moment and with I was
01:02:33
thinking about this example before you
01:02:34
arrived cuz I was like in that case my
01:02:36
my intuition told me something but I
01:02:38
didn't know what it was telling me. I
01:02:39
imagine a lot of people have that. They
01:02:40
have a vibe of someone something's not
01:02:42
quite right and they're interpreting it
01:02:44
to mean X when it could be Y.
01:02:46
>> Yes. Sometimes there's a very nice like
01:02:48
in my life and I suspect in yours too,
01:02:51
there's often a very straight line
01:02:53
between certain childhood experiences
01:02:56
and what we ultimately do. In my case, a
01:02:59
very easy one is there was fear. I then
01:03:02
come to have a deep understanding of
01:03:04
fear, both sides of it. uh and and and
01:03:07
some compassion for it and some uh uh
01:03:10
insight and I I then study it. There was
01:03:13
violence uh in my childhood. And so I
01:03:16
now come now it's so long ago that I'm
01:03:19
71. So my childhood is so long ago now
01:03:22
that it doesn't have a a grip on my
01:03:24
throat like it did for a lot of my life
01:03:26
where the narrative was very very
01:03:28
important to me and the narrative of my
01:03:31
childhood was important. Go ahead. You
01:03:32
can ask question. I was going to
01:03:34
probably give people the context on your
01:03:35
childhood.
01:03:36
>> Oh, uh, you or me. I'll do it. Okay,
01:03:39
good. Yeah, my childhood. Damn it. I'll
01:03:40
I'll tell them. Uh, so yeah, a very, you
01:03:43
know, very difficult time. My mother was
01:03:44
a heroin addict. Uh, she was, uh, quite
01:03:47
violent. She was very troubled. She
01:03:49
committed suicide when she was, uh, 39
01:03:52
years old and I was 16. And that was a a
01:03:55
kind of failure for me because I
01:03:56
considered it my job to to get us all
01:03:58
through this drama alive. Um, she shot
01:04:01
my stepfather in front of me. Uh, a lot
01:04:04
of in that house that we lived in, I
01:04:06
think there I I saw the house a few
01:04:08
months ago, by the way. I think there
01:04:10
are nine bullets in the walls and floor
01:04:12
of that house uh that I can account for,
01:04:14
probably still there. And so, while I'm
01:04:17
describing this to you dispassionately,
01:04:20
uh, it's because of two things. The
01:04:22
distance in terms of time, but most of
01:04:25
all because of healing. And the the I
01:04:28
want to give you my definition of
01:04:29
healing in this context. My definition
01:04:32
of healing for all of us is when we stop
01:04:36
using any of our energy to manage the
01:04:39
past. And this gives us all of our
01:04:42
energy in the present moment. And so
01:04:44
what do I mean using energy to manage
01:04:45
the past? Well, if I'm keeping that
01:04:47
story going and I'm saying to my wife,
01:04:50
well, because my mama did this, this is
01:04:52
why I feel such and such. which I went
01:04:54
through times in my life when when those
01:04:55
things were much closer to me. Today, I
01:04:58
feel like I'm not using any of my energy
01:05:00
to manage the past. The the narrative I
01:05:03
told you this whole series of of dramas
01:05:06
happened. And anytime you hear about a
01:05:08
parent or or anybody in somebody's life
01:05:10
committing suicide, we often think, "Oh,
01:05:13
what a terrible experience that must
01:05:14
have been." What you really ought to
01:05:16
think when you hear about somebody
01:05:18
committing suicide is, "Oh, what a
01:05:20
series of terrible experiences there
01:05:21
must have been leading up to that." And
01:05:23
I want to tell you real quickly that I
01:05:25
had a a couple of dreams that my mother
01:05:26
was in that were particularly powerful.
01:05:29
And I offered this to the audience to
01:05:31
know that dream experiences are
01:05:33
sometimes all you're going to get.
01:05:35
Right? Because my mother died when I was
01:05:37
16. So I don't have an opportunity to
01:05:39
sit across the table with her and say,
01:05:40
"What were you thinking when you such
01:05:42
and such and what was going on in your
01:05:43
life when such and such?" And and but in
01:05:46
a dream, she came to me once and I asked
01:05:49
her, "Why were you so cruel to me?" And
01:05:50
she was totally perplexed and she said
01:05:53
to me, "Cruel to you, I was preparing
01:05:55
you for this extraordinary life."
01:05:58
And I think that's true.
01:06:01
I think that's what happened is that for
01:06:04
you, whatever your experience was, for
01:06:06
Tony Robbins, who we talked about
01:06:08
earlier, what his experience was, it
01:06:10
took those experiences. You take away
01:06:12
those experiences and you don't have
01:06:14
someone who grows up wanting nothing
01:06:16
more than to write these books for free
01:06:19
and sell them for free and get them
01:06:21
published for free like Forbidden Facts,
01:06:22
the current book, in order to help
01:06:24
people deal with these issues of
01:06:26
skepticism, of fear, etc. You don't get
01:06:29
somebody doing what I do. Uh where my
01:06:32
ambition is long gone. My ambition for
01:06:36
more more anything, more money, more
01:06:38
houses. Well, houses I might still slip
01:06:40
on, but now it's about service to other
01:06:43
people. Wasn't always, but it was
01:06:45
service to other people because I
01:06:47
believe that public life, it includes
01:06:49
you. If all you do is give me a bad
01:06:51
example, that's service. If you give me
01:06:52
a good example, that's a prettier form
01:06:54
of service. It's a maybe it's a nicer
01:06:56
job you got, but ultimately all of it is
01:06:59
service. Everything that we can observe
01:07:01
in of people in public life and people
01:07:03
in our private lives. It's all service.
01:07:06
You know, I remember a friend of mine
01:07:07
telling me he went back home for
01:07:09
Thanksgiving and he saw his whole family
01:07:11
and he said he learned to only stay for
01:07:14
one day. He said because all the [ __ ]
01:07:16
happened on the second day with his
01:07:18
family if he stayed for two days. And he
01:07:20
also learned to stay in a hotel. I said,
01:07:22
"Are you staying at home?" He said, "Oh,
01:07:23
[ __ ] No, never never stay at home.
01:07:26
Because here was this group of people.
01:07:28
But what he told me that was interesting
01:07:29
is he said, "Ah, Aunt Charlene, you
01:07:32
taught me to speak more quietly because
01:07:34
you talk so [ __ ] loud." And he says,
01:07:37
"Uncle Carlo, you you taught me to be
01:07:41
more gentle because, man, you're rough
01:07:43
in everything you do. Throw the glasses
01:07:45
around and the way you engage. Dad, you
01:07:48
taught me to listen to people because
01:07:50
you never [ __ ] listen to a thing I
01:07:52
said even today. Isn't it a beautiful
01:07:54
way of looking at it? Basically, these
01:07:56
were the teachers in in our lives. For
01:07:58
my mother, 100% uh the I'm I'm so far
01:08:03
past forgiveness and so far into
01:08:06
gratitude for the pieces that were
01:08:08
wonderful. And by the way, this is a
01:08:10
suffering person, right? This is a
01:08:13
person that, you know, that charities
01:08:15
are for and and social welfare is for.
01:08:18
Uh, you know, a woman with three kids
01:08:20
and no job and a heroin addict for God's
01:08:22
sake. That's not an easy job. Uh, and
01:08:25
and other drugs too, by the way, which
01:08:27
helped me as I grew up to be skeptical
01:08:29
of pharma
01:08:31
because some of the pills she took, one
01:08:32
of them called Doradin, has now been
01:08:34
taken off the market for causing what?
01:08:36
Psychosis,
01:08:38
which explains a lot of her craziness.
01:08:41
And so all of this this, you know,
01:08:43
teaching that it depends what you do
01:08:46
with it. Meaning you we all we all
01:08:48
nobody gets out of here alive, right?
01:08:50
Everybody's got a story to tell. And I
01:08:52
remember a case where I overvalued my
01:08:55
own ability to predict human behavior,
01:08:57
which I say, you know, I say in these
01:08:58
books, you can predict human behavior,
01:09:01
right? To to drive here today in
01:09:03
traffic, I had to predict the behavior
01:09:05
of thousands of people based on just the
01:09:07
little movements of the big metal
01:09:08
objects around them. You know that guy
01:09:10
who starts to move over into your lane
01:09:12
and then he catches himself and goes.
01:09:14
You never trust that guy. You always
01:09:15
want to get way behind him or way in
01:09:17
front of him. So, we're predicting human
01:09:19
behavior all the time. But I overvalued
01:09:21
mine. I thought, "Oh, I'm Mr. Genius
01:09:22
predicting human behavior because I
01:09:24
developed these systems of artificial
01:09:26
intuition that predict human behavior."
01:09:28
And I was at a meeting and there were a
01:09:29
group of people at the meeting and it
01:09:31
was going to start in about 5 minutes.
01:09:32
And a few people were comforting one
01:09:34
woman who was really sobbing at the end
01:09:36
of the table. And I thought to myself
01:09:38
judgmentally, um, why'd she even come to
01:09:40
the meeting? I mean, if she can't do the
01:09:41
meeting, like, what's she doing here?
01:09:42
And I knew it was a boyfriend issue,
01:09:44
right? That's what she's crying about
01:09:46
and they're comforting her. The meeting
01:09:48
begins and that woman speaks first and
01:09:51
she says through her tears, "I'm sorry
01:09:53
you guys. Uh, I'll do my best at the
01:09:55
meeting, but as many of you know, my
01:09:58
husband killed my 12-year-old son 4 days
01:10:02
ago."
01:10:03
So my little journey into judgmental
01:10:06
prediction was about as wrong as you
01:10:09
could be and it was a uh a humbling
01:10:13
experience for me because I would have
01:10:15
discounted that person in a moment.
01:10:17
That's the other side of of prediction
01:10:19
and intuition, right? You can discount
01:10:21
people uh and quickly toss them away.
01:10:24
And so you know when you get this
01:10:26
intuitive signal, do we have a
01:10:27
responsibility to understand it? Yeah,
01:10:31
we have a responsibility to understand
01:10:32
it. How many people have I met who I
01:10:34
thought what an [ __ ] that guy is. I
01:10:36
don't ever want to talk to that guy
01:10:37
again. And I didn't. My loss. Sometimes
01:10:40
it was would have been the greatest
01:10:41
person in the world. Uh sometimes it
01:10:43
would have been a great relationship.
01:10:45
And now I apply the the George Harrison
01:10:48
rule. George Harrison the Beatles which
01:10:50
writes this who writes this unbelievable
01:10:52
lyric that's in While My Guitar Gently
01:10:54
Weeps, which is I look at you all and
01:10:57
see the love there that's sleeping.
01:11:01
We have a brain budget. The way to think
01:11:04
about it is we have a limited amount of
01:11:07
energy that we can spend every single
01:11:10
day. I'm saying find ways to simplify
01:11:12
your life. And one way I've conserved my
01:11:13
body budget is via our sponsor Factor
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01:11:55
If there's anything we need, it is
01:11:58
connection. Especially in the world
01:11:59
we're living in today. And that is
01:12:01
exactly why we created these
01:12:02
conversation cards. Because on this
01:12:04
show, when I sit here with my guest and
01:12:06
have those deep, intimate conversations,
01:12:09
this remarkable thing happens time and
01:12:10
time again. We feel deeply connected to
01:12:13
each other. At the end of every episode,
01:12:15
the guest I'm interviewing leaves a
01:12:17
question for the next guest, and we've
01:12:18
turned them into these conversation
01:12:21
cards. And we've added these twist cards
01:12:23
to make your conversations even more
01:12:24
interesting. And there are so many more
01:12:26
twists along the way with the
01:12:28
conversation cards. This is the brand
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limited edition gold cards are all gone.
01:12:44
Head to the link in the description
01:12:45
below. Through your work, you've um been
01:12:50
behind the scenes with some of the most
01:12:51
interesting people on planet Earth, most
01:12:53
successful, richest, most powerful
01:12:55
people on planet Earth. And you get to
01:12:56
see therefore both sides of the fence in
01:12:59
a way that most people would never see.
01:13:00
You get to see how they are in the
01:13:02
public life and then you get to see them
01:13:04
in their private life and often times
01:13:05
you'll get to see them
01:13:07
>> during some of the hardest moments of
01:13:08
their life.
01:13:09
>> Most of the time. Yeah.
01:13:11
>> What have you learned from that
01:13:12
exposure?
01:13:14
>> Well, probably a lot. So the I I'll but
01:13:17
I'll give a a uh what what answer comes
01:13:20
to me intuitively. When I was a kid and
01:13:22
I used to watch television, I believed
01:13:24
when I was a kid that the television was
01:13:28
more real than our lives and I learned
01:13:31
obviously through my experience that the
01:13:33
exact opposite was true, right? The
01:13:36
media world was unreal and our lives
01:13:39
were real. And this Stephen is
01:13:41
incredibly important today because with
01:13:44
AI and social media and other things, we
01:13:46
actually are challenged to know what is
01:13:49
real and what is not real. Did Trump
01:13:51
really make that speech or is it an AI
01:13:53
film? Did did that really happen or is
01:13:56
is that real what I'm looking at? The
01:13:57
cat really did that or is that an AI
01:13:59
film? And we are challenged now to
01:14:02
understand and choose I would say what's
01:14:05
real and what's not real.
01:14:07
That challenge has beauty in it because
01:14:10
it's making for me it's making me
01:14:13
question
01:14:14
reality itself. In other words, um I'm
01:14:18
questioning what really matters to me
01:14:21
and what will I call real? And I'll give
01:14:23
you some examples. I'll call touch real.
01:14:27
Hug you. Shake your hand. I'll call that
01:14:31
real. Nature. Time in a park. Time with
01:14:34
animals. my time with cats and dogs.
01:14:37
Unbelievably important to me because I
01:14:39
trust those [ __ ] right? I believe
01:14:41
that cat means business. This is what
01:14:44
it's doing. If it wants to be on my
01:14:46
chest purring, it wants to be on my
01:14:47
chest purring. And if it doesn't, she's
01:14:49
out of there, right?
01:14:50
>> CIA cat.
01:14:51
>> And so, and and children are the same
01:14:53
thing. I remember my son's meeting a
01:14:56
famous client of mine who, let's say, is
01:14:59
was the richest man in the world, etc.
01:15:02
at that moment. and uh and my son at 3
01:15:04
years old, how much money do you have?
01:15:06
Um but it held no offense because it's
01:15:09
this little kid. All it can be is real.
01:15:11
There's nothing but real in in a little
01:15:13
kid. And so where I think optimistically
01:15:16
about AI, which definitely has some
01:15:19
problems for for for the human race for
01:15:21
sure. But where I think optimistically
01:15:23
about it is I think it's good for people
01:15:26
to question reality because what
01:15:28
ultimately is it? What is it? If this is
01:15:31
a simulation, like Elon makes a good
01:15:33
argument for, and I think he leans in
01:15:35
that direction, by the way, and
01:15:37
sometimes I I do too with him. If it's a
01:15:39
simulation, uh, then we want to make it
01:15:42
interesting and and we want to be a bit
01:15:44
outside. In in a simulation, we're not
01:15:46
vulnerable, right? The the the spirit,
01:15:48
the soul, the energy that animates us um
01:15:51
will continue. It's not going anywhere.
01:15:54
And it lets us witness this experience
01:15:56
rather than feel victim to it, right? we
01:15:59
get to this is a good movie and we
01:16:00
wouldn't go see a movie if we knew the
01:16:02
outcome, right? But we but this movie is
01:16:05
really good. And so when I look at AI
01:16:07
things and trust me, I don't know about
01:16:09
you, you're younger, so you're you may
01:16:11
have better instincts or intuitions for
01:16:13
it, but I genuinely can't tell
01:16:15
sometimes. I mean, I send something back
01:16:17
to a friend of mine and say, I think
01:16:18
that's [ __ ] I don't think the dog
01:16:20
actually jumped up on the top shelf and
01:16:22
did that such and such. I I don't buy
01:16:23
it. And then you look at it a few more
01:16:25
times. But this is good for us because
01:16:28
what it brings us to is whatever we
01:16:30
think is real. Touch, taste, uh uh the
01:16:37
feelings, tears, nature, whatever we
01:16:40
think it is, I believe that's where I
01:16:43
want to be. That's where I want to spend
01:16:44
my time.
01:16:45
>> So there's this theory called the dead
01:16:46
internet theory where they think that
01:16:47
because of AI and us being able to make
01:16:50
I sent actually sent a video to some of
01:16:51
my team members earlier. It's a two and
01:16:52
a half minute video and it's made with
01:16:54
one of these AI tools and it it's the
01:16:57
ending of a very famous movie and
01:16:58
someone's just changed it and they it's
01:16:59
a kid in their bedroom has made a new
01:17:00
ending to the movie. couple of prompts,
01:17:02
they've got a new ending to the movie.
01:17:03
And I I was playing this forward,
01:17:05
playing this forward and forward and
01:17:07
forward. And eventually you get to a
01:17:08
point where bots will be just spraying
01:17:12
content at the internet. And in such a
01:17:14
world, unless we have these sort of um
01:17:17
retina scanners to confirm that I'm
01:17:19
doing the post live, you get to this
01:17:21
dead internet theory where like
01:17:23
everything you see is either written by
01:17:25
produced by AI. Therefore, wait. Our
01:17:28
level of skepticism just raises to the
01:17:30
point that we don't trust anything we're
01:17:31
seeing. You're saying that that's
01:17:33
actually a good thing for us because it
01:17:34
makes us question what we're seeing
01:17:36
again and revert to real things that are
01:17:39
irreplaceably human.
01:17:41
>> Yes. I think it's good to I think it's
01:17:43
it's spiritually good for us to redefine
01:17:47
reality as opposed to take me back 20
01:17:50
years in my life and possibly yours.
01:17:52
What did I believe? everything the
01:17:54
government said, every official
01:17:56
narrative. Why wouldn't I believe it?
01:17:58
>> Do you think there's any downside to our
01:17:59
lost interest in institutions?
01:18:03
>> Well, I have such a negative view of big
01:18:06
centralized
01:18:08
institutions.
01:18:09
>> Why? Because I think what happens when
01:18:11
you a a very good number of people to
01:18:14
live together is about 300. And what I
01:18:17
base that on is uh Fiji where I live a
01:18:20
lot, villages are about 300 people.
01:18:22
There's a chief who lives with them. He
01:18:25
doesn't get special treatment. He's not
01:18:26
carried around in a gold chariot. He's
01:18:29
got to eat the same food they do. And he
01:18:31
is generally uh benevolent. And uh
01:18:35
because the the beauty of the Fijian
01:18:37
village, and I encourage you you to go
01:18:39
and all your your viewers to go. Don't
01:18:41
all go on the same day because you'll
01:18:42
[ __ ] up Fiji, but go anyway. Um the the
01:18:46
beauty of the Fijian village is that
01:18:48
people will be born
01:18:51
and grow up and get married and have
01:18:53
children and die all in the same house
01:18:57
and all with the same people. That's
01:19:00
fantastic because what they don't get
01:19:03
that I get in my life and you get is the
01:19:06
engagement with all these anonymous
01:19:08
people that don't matter. Right? The
01:19:10
waiter is just a snapshot to me, not a
01:19:12
real person I'm sitting down with. I
01:19:14
like to, by the way, really engage with
01:19:15
people uh at the expense of of the
01:19:18
friends I'm with very often. I'm really
01:19:19
curious about people. The Uber driver,
01:19:21
I'm I'm curious, but I know that the
01:19:25
this is a temporary relationship in the
01:19:27
Fijian village. Uh it's not a temporary
01:19:29
relationship. I'll give you a good
01:19:30
example on an airplane. You're on a
01:19:32
commercial flight somewhere and you've
01:19:34
got a 10-hour flight to overseas to
01:19:36
London or something and there's a baby
01:19:38
crying and uh you're pissed that the
01:19:41
baby's crying. Some people are. I mean,
01:19:43
I I look at this when we used to travel,
01:19:46
my wife and I, and I remember somebody
01:19:48
saying when we boarded with my maybe
01:19:50
20-month-old son, "Is that baby going to
01:19:53
cry?" And I said to the woman, "What do
01:19:55
you think? It's a it's a 20-month old
01:19:58
baby." But the point is, hey folks,
01:20:00
we're together for the next 10 hours.
01:20:02
How do we want to spend this time? We
01:20:03
want to spend it hating each other. We
01:20:05
want to get too drunk and bug the person
01:20:07
next to you. How do we want to do this?
01:20:08
A Fijian village is like that. In fact,
01:20:10
a Fijian village is fewer bathrooms than
01:20:12
a 747 and fewer seats than a 747. Fewer
01:20:16
people for God's sake, what we get on an
01:20:18
airplane every day. And so I believe in
01:20:21
small populations uh for governance. And
01:20:24
I believe in subsidiarity, a word you
01:20:27
probably don't know. I only learned it
01:20:28
about a year ago from a dear friend in
01:20:30
Cape Town. Subsidiarity means government
01:20:32
at the most local possible level. So, if
01:20:35
it's a if it's a an issue regarding
01:20:37
building permit, that ought to be city
01:20:38
or county, nothing to do with Washington
01:20:40
DC. If it's an issue regarding
01:20:42
interstate commerce, okay, maybe we need
01:20:44
a little Washington DC. We need a little
01:20:46
state involved. But government at the lo
01:20:49
most local possible level so that I can
01:20:50
come over to your house, Stephen, and
01:20:52
say, "Why did you not approve my my
01:20:54
building permit?" Or so I can meet you
01:20:55
in the restaurant where we see each
01:20:57
other every morning, where our kids go
01:20:58
to school together. I don't believe
01:21:00
centralized government works. And I
01:21:02
think further that centralized
01:21:04
government is our enemy. It is the enemy
01:21:07
of of citizens.
01:21:08
>> I was thinking about the parallels there
01:21:09
actually for business.
01:21:10
>> They get too big.
01:21:11
>> Yeah, they get too big. And a lot of
01:21:12
great companies actually break break up
01:21:14
divisions and departments and give them
01:21:16
autonomy and subsidiar. Can't even say
01:21:18
it.
01:21:18
>> Subsidiary. It wasn't easy for me
01:21:19
either.
01:21:19
>> I nailed it first time. What you're
01:21:20
talking about subsidiary. Subsidiarity.
01:21:23
Bing bing.
01:21:24
>> Subsidiarity. Yeah.
01:21:25
>> And how even in as our company grows,
01:21:27
maybe I should think more about
01:21:29
subsidiarity. Well, I'll tell you, my
01:21:31
company at its biggest was about a
01:21:33
thousand people and 26 offices around
01:21:36
the country, around the world, and I
01:21:38
didn't like a thousand people as a
01:21:40
number. I liked where we are now, which
01:21:42
is about 600 people and uh and we're
01:21:44
hiring, by the way, so look us up and
01:21:46
and come to work. We need we need young
01:21:48
people uh who are physically fit and
01:21:50
have good backgrounds, uh meaning they
01:21:52
can pass screening. But my point is that
01:21:55
I I like to stay in that sweet spot of a
01:21:58
thousand people starts to get too far
01:22:00
from the individuals. And when it's
01:22:03
small, and I don't know where you are
01:22:04
now in in this in in this podcast
01:22:07
organization, but you can walk down the
01:22:10
hall and see an employee and say, "Hey,
01:22:13
it seems like you're you're not doing so
01:22:14
well. You seem you don't like to joke
01:22:16
anymore. You seem humorless. You seem
01:22:18
such and such." In a big organization
01:22:21
while I developed a method for that by
01:22:23
the way I'll tell you in a second but in
01:22:24
a big organization you get farther and
01:22:26
farther and farther from the human
01:22:27
beings. I want to tell you the method we
01:22:29
developed. We have a thing called care.
01:22:31
It stands for continuous asking
01:22:34
responding and evaluation.
01:22:36
Every day every employee in my company
01:22:38
when they log into work gets a question
01:22:42
that they answer and I get the
01:22:45
statistical results of that every day.
01:22:47
And the questions will be things like uh
01:22:49
when do you think you're getting your
01:22:50
next promotion?
01:22:52
Uh or um have you experienced or
01:22:54
witnessed sexual harassment? Have you
01:22:56
experienced or witnessed discrimination?
01:22:58
Why do I do that? Because I want to
01:23:00
know, right? That's why you ask. Have
01:23:03
you in bigger companies that use our
01:23:05
system like Amazon did developed a
01:23:07
system like it that you know you might
01:23:09
ask a question like have you ever seen a
01:23:11
firearm in the workplace? An
01:23:12
unauthorized firearm. Oh, damn it. We
01:23:14
want to know that information, right?
01:23:16
Does your supervisor know your name?
01:23:18
Huge question because a supervisor
01:23:21
knowing that question is asked knows
01:23:23
everybody's name which is what you want.
01:23:24
You're influencing middle management
01:23:26
behavior. But that system we have care
01:23:28
is no different than me walking down the
01:23:30
hall and say, "Hey, Stephen, I noticed
01:23:32
for the last couple of days you're
01:23:33
keeping your office door closed and you
01:23:34
kind of shut down for some reason.
01:23:36
What's going on?" You lose that when it
01:23:38
gets too big. And when it gets really
01:23:39
too big, like think about government
01:23:41
agencies like HHS, the biggest budget in
01:23:45
world history, $1.7 trillion, bigger
01:23:48
than the Pentagon, started out at 85,000
01:23:51
employees. Luckily, it's down now. You
01:23:54
You got to be kidding. You're running a
01:23:56
a machine. It has nothing to do with
01:23:58
humanity. And and government agencies
01:24:00
have nothing to do with humanity. They
01:24:02
have to do with process, bureaucracy.
01:24:05
>> We talked about advice. That's kind of
01:24:07
where we started on this uh train of
01:24:09
thought that you would give to your
01:24:10
children and one of the you know trains
01:24:12
we went down was about intuition.
01:24:14
>> Yes.
01:24:15
>> Is there anything else that you think
01:24:17
was would you know if you if you if this
01:24:19
god forbid was your last day on earth
01:24:20
and your children said to you, "Dad,
01:24:24
what do I need to know to live a
01:24:25
fulfilling life?"
01:24:26
>> Yes.
01:24:27
>> Based in the world as we see it today,
01:24:28
what would you what would you say if you
01:24:30
could only say one thing? for me and I
01:24:32
think it's true for everybody um
01:24:34
contribution to others is a key part of
01:24:39
coming to believe that you belong here.
01:24:41
Those of us who had a tough time and but
01:24:43
remember I said everybody has a tough
01:24:45
time in some way through childhood
01:24:47
selflove is often uh missing or is hard
01:24:51
to come by and to believe that you
01:24:53
belong here contribution to others is a
01:24:55
key thing. The second one you asked for
01:24:58
one but you're getting two. It's a it's
01:25:00
a special today a bargain. The second
01:25:02
one was the hardest lesson for me to
01:25:04
come to believe and that was that what
01:25:08
is right for you is always right for the
01:25:10
other person.
01:25:13
Very hard for me to get my head around
01:25:14
this one because I thought, well, wait a
01:25:16
minute. I want to break up with this
01:25:17
girl who wants to get married and have
01:25:18
kids with me. How can my breaking up be
01:25:21
right for the other person? Well, a she
01:25:24
gets to be with somebody who actually
01:25:26
wants to be with her. she gets to begin
01:25:28
her life now instead of I stay with her
01:25:30
till she's 45 and she can't have kids
01:25:32
anymore. So this idea that what's right
01:25:34
for you is always right for the other
01:25:36
person. The practical application is
01:25:38
that all you need to do, Stephen, is
01:25:40
know what's right for you,
01:25:41
>> which is easier said than done.
01:25:43
>> It is easier said than done, but because
01:25:45
in my case, what I would do is say,
01:25:47
well, what how's this person going to
01:25:48
do? When I was younger, I believed
01:25:50
everybody that I fired, for example,
01:25:51
which was very few people in my career.
01:25:53
I mean, employed a shitload of people,
01:25:55
but I didn't fire very often. Everybody
01:25:57
that I fired, I thought they went from
01:25:59
working at this great company that I was
01:26:01
the founder of to being on the street
01:26:03
homeless and couldn't feed their
01:26:05
families. That's not what happened. They
01:26:07
went to other great jobs. If they could
01:26:09
work for GDBA, they had already jumped
01:26:11
through so many hoops. They were
01:26:13
presentable. They were intelligent. They
01:26:14
were physically fit. They had a a great
01:26:16
background. They had integrity that we
01:26:19
could see. They had all variety of of
01:26:21
things. And they presented incredibly
01:26:22
well because we've got one hell of a
01:26:24
screening process. We have a 9-day
01:26:26
nine-day interview, not a 1-hour
01:26:29
interview. They live they come and live
01:26:31
at our camp for 9 days of an interview
01:26:34
process. They're sleeping in our
01:26:36
environment. We're really getting to
01:26:38
know them. By the way, it's 12 days now,
01:26:40
but started as 9 days. So now I know if
01:26:43
I fire somebody or if they leave, uh,
01:26:45
they're going to do fantastic. That that
01:26:47
was a big awakening for me. But this
01:26:49
idea that what's right for me is always
01:26:51
right for the other person, what does it
01:26:54
do? It frees you to know that the only
01:26:55
place I have to go to get the answer to
01:26:57
this question is in here. You don't want
01:27:00
me messing around in your brain trying
01:27:02
to figure out what you want, trying to
01:27:04
figure out what you believe, trying to
01:27:06
figure out what's best for you. I've
01:27:08
hurt more people in my life, trying to
01:27:11
figure out what's best for them than
01:27:12
I've helped.
01:27:13
>> It is um it is remarkably true. I was
01:27:16
just sort of senseing it against people
01:27:18
where in one particular case where I had
01:27:21
fired someone and they were very upset
01:27:22
about it many many many years ago in a
01:27:24
previous business very upset about it
01:27:26
protested you know said some things uh
01:27:29
to me and then years later five six 10
01:27:33
years later when I reflect on where they
01:27:34
are now and if that was the best thing
01:27:36
for them as I kind of assumed it was to
01:27:38
be honest they would say it was the best
01:27:40
thing for them I would say it was the
01:27:42
best thing for them in hindsight in part
01:27:43
because
01:27:44
>> when held in a situation that's not
01:27:46
right for them. They're going to suffer
01:27:47
in other ways.
01:27:48
>> Yeah.
01:27:49
>> Under the under a standard,
01:27:50
>> including your resentment.
01:27:51
>> My resentment, a standard they can't
01:27:52
meet, goals they can't meet, the
01:27:54
pressure from everybody, the stress when
01:27:55
they can't see their job, of course.
01:27:56
>> And yeah, and let them go and they
01:27:58
started their own thing. And um less
01:28:01
pressure, lower goals, less expectation.
01:28:03
They seem to be much much happier.
01:28:04
>> And you Oh, much happier.
01:28:06
>> And you Yeah. That's the Look, God only
01:28:08
made you or the universe, whichever word
01:28:10
you want to fit in there, only made you
01:28:12
responsible for one person. truly
01:28:14
responsible for one person and and
01:28:16
that's you and then that has of course
01:28:18
all the ripple effects of what it does
01:28:20
for the rest of the world even our
01:28:22
children by the way are we responsible
01:28:24
for them certainly not for life right
01:28:26
because in my case I'm an older father
01:28:29
my first birth kid I had a bunch of
01:28:31
adopted kids a bunch I had eight but my
01:28:33
first uh birth kid uh I was 52 years old
01:28:37
and so I'm an older father to my
01:28:39
17-year-old son uh I don't expect to be
01:28:42
around when he's
01:28:43
Um, I'll take it if it happens to be
01:28:45
that way. But I would be def [ __ ]
01:28:47
crepit by that point. Uh, and I I'd
01:28:50
rather probably exit before that. But my
01:28:52
point is the idea that even our
01:28:55
children, we will not find the answer.
01:28:57
Do I know what's best for my kids? Of
01:29:00
course not. I have a lot of opinions,
01:29:02
but uh, you know, do I really know
01:29:04
what's best? No. But I know what's best
01:29:06
for me. And and that's really where my
01:29:09
responsibility has to end. And Stephen,
01:29:10
you asked me to boil it down to one. I
01:29:13
gave you a special today of two. And uh
01:29:15
and I want to give you uh the third one
01:29:18
that you haven't asked for. And it's
01:29:19
this. Everything you want is downstream.
01:29:24
Everything you want is downstream.
01:29:26
Meaning that time when we're swimming
01:29:28
against the current and think, oh, if
01:29:30
it's important, it's going to take all
01:29:31
this work, etc., etc. There is no
01:29:34
swimming upstream. What? Downstream
01:29:37
always wins. Reality always wins. You
01:29:39
know, when you swim upstream, you put
01:29:41
enough current there and you're staying
01:29:42
in the same place. And so, the times in
01:29:45
my life when I thought it must be this
01:29:47
way. It has to be this. This there's a
01:29:48
this is the only way. I was wrong. I was
01:29:51
wrong. Including hiring a dear friend of
01:29:54
mine told me the story of hiring a CEO
01:29:56
for his company, big company, and and
01:29:58
the guy said, "I'll take the job." And
01:30:00
they negotiated everything. And then the
01:30:02
guy said, "You know, I'm going to go to
01:30:02
work for for Pepsi Cola, and I'm sorry."
01:30:05
And my friend got on an airplane and
01:30:07
flew to the hotel and waited in the
01:30:08
lobby. the of the hotel where he knew
01:30:10
the guy was, caught him in the lobby and
01:30:12
said, "Don't go to work for them. Go to
01:30:14
work for me. I'll change the offer in
01:30:16
the following way. I'll add this
01:30:17
equity." And he succeeded and he got the
01:30:20
CEO he wanted. And three weeks later had
01:30:23
to fire the [ __ ]
01:30:26
So basically, when the whole universe
01:30:28
says no, everything you want is
01:30:30
downstream. Now, you probably have some,
01:30:33
you tell me, do you have some resistance
01:30:36
to that idea? Um, I would say
01:30:40
I can think of examples where I fought
01:30:42
for something and it was I fought for a
01:30:44
person or something and it turned out to
01:30:46
be a good decision. Should I give you
01:30:49
the context?
01:30:50
>> Yeah, I'd love to hear the context. But
01:30:52
by the way, that doesn't defeat my
01:30:54
argument because fighting for something
01:30:56
is not the same as swimming upstream.
01:30:58
You know, swimming upstream is you know
01:31:00
which way this river is going.
01:31:02
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah, that makes sense then.
01:31:04
>> Yeah. And so the the you ask what I
01:31:06
would tell my kids is that everything
01:31:07
you want is downstream. It kind of you
01:31:10
know I've been so blessed or lucky
01:31:13
whatever word you want to use or
01:31:14
fortunate in my life that my work you've
01:31:16
got all these books as examples. I loved
01:31:19
doing it. It wasn't work. I love
01:31:22
sometimes it's hard but hard is not the
01:31:25
same as like feeling like I'm just
01:31:26
stamping something out in this factory
01:31:28
which would be a kind of hell for me I
01:31:30
guess. Uh, I loved I I was doing what I
01:31:34
was on the planet to do. I think
01:31:36
everybody isn't that lucky.
01:31:38
>> The example I was going to give you
01:31:39
actually support
01:31:40
>> the story. Yes. Go ahead.
01:31:41
>> Me and my me and my then girlfriend were
01:31:43
dating for a year. We had an issue. I've
01:31:45
been very open about this and the
01:31:46
newspapers write about it and stuff, but
01:31:48
we had an issue with our intimate life
01:31:52
and we couldn't really see a way around
01:31:54
it. Broke up.
01:31:57
She flew to Bali because we couldn't see
01:32:00
a way to solve the problem. And then I
01:32:02
carried on with my life and a year goes
01:32:04
past and I'm thinking constantly, I'm
01:32:05
thinking, do you know what? I think
01:32:06
actually that was the right person.
01:32:08
>> I think I [ __ ] up. I think I should
01:32:09
have maybe in my immaturity I like
01:32:11
should have found a way to work through
01:32:13
this problem. So I fly across the world
01:32:15
to Bali for 18 hours and I go there to
01:32:19
apologize to her for not handling the
01:32:21
situation better in a more mature way. I
01:32:23
I apologize. I think there is part of me
01:32:25
that's trying to get her back. actually
01:32:26
while we're there she does tell me that
01:32:28
in the time we've been apart she's been
01:32:29
with someone else and I take it all very
01:32:32
very well I'm very mature and then while
01:32:36
we're there I know she's not trying
01:32:38
she's not trying to like sit next to me
01:32:39
so when we go for dinner with our
01:32:40
friends she's like sitting two seats
01:32:42
down she's like there's no interest in
01:32:43
me anymore
01:32:44
>> so I accept it and I tell her I'm going
01:32:46
home in in 2 days time thank you so much
01:32:48
for spending time I send her this nice
01:32:49
text message and then in those in the 48
01:32:52
hours before my flight
01:32:54
it's like we fell in love with each
01:32:56
other again. So, it supports your point
01:32:57
because when I apologized, I came with
01:32:59
no agenda and then I said, "I'm
01:33:01
leaving."
01:33:02
>> In the 48 hours from the point where I
01:33:03
said, "I'm off now." Sent her a nice
01:33:05
message. It's like we fell in love
01:33:07
again. She's now my fianceé
01:33:08
>> and that's what I don't know. It's been
01:33:11
seven years or something. But it
01:33:12
actually goes to show what you said. Now
01:33:13
I thought it through cuz I thought
01:33:14
flying was me fighting for something
01:33:16
because of the example you gave, but
01:33:18
actually
01:33:18
>> it was I apologized and I'd given up. I
01:33:21
like stopped fighting.
01:33:22
>> That's the best when you when you let it
01:33:24
go. And suddenly and suddenly it
01:33:26
happens. Yes, it does fit. Everything
01:33:28
you want is downstream. In fact, that
01:33:30
that's not, you know, even getting on a
01:33:32
plane is downstream.
01:33:34
>> You didn't get on a plane that flies
01:33:35
backwards or has no engines. That's what
01:33:38
I'm talking about is when you find
01:33:39
yourself, and I certainly have in my
01:33:41
life, find myself doing something that
01:33:43
is so difficult to do uh and and so
01:33:47
unrewarding and it feels like I'm trying
01:33:50
to swim upstream, which I can tell you
01:33:52
from experience in lots of rivers, some
01:33:54
of them in Fiji, it doesn't work. You
01:33:56
you don't get a lot of mileage swimming
01:33:58
upstream.
01:33:58
>> I was just going to ask cuz you know,
01:33:59
this this was such a smash hit
01:34:01
bestselling book.
01:34:02
>> Yeah.
01:34:02
>> Nationally. And I was just going to ask
01:34:04
you the question,
01:34:06
>> why? What is it that resonated with
01:34:09
people that made this book so
01:34:10
successful? The gift of fear, survival
01:34:12
signals that protect us from violence.
01:34:14
What What is it?
01:34:16
>> That's a very good question. I mean, a
01:34:18
good question in that it's in that it's
01:34:20
a new question. I'll give you what I
01:34:22
what I hope. I think if that book had
01:34:25
been about Chinese pottery uh or about
01:34:28
spices or any subject carpentry um it
01:34:32
also would have worked well because it
01:34:34
had by a number of blessings it had some
01:34:37
core truths in it like you didn't one of
01:34:39
the things I'm saying to them is forget
01:34:41
about experts you you don't need an
01:34:43
expert to be telling you things that are
01:34:45
in your own body if this story is
01:34:47
resonant to you if this experience from
01:34:49
all these people that I interviewed is
01:34:51
resonant to you and if that works for
01:34:54
then uh you know you'll find value here
01:34:56
and uh there are some practical reasons
01:34:59
why it was a bestseller like Oprah doing
01:35:01
it. I mean everybody did it. Time
01:35:03
magazine, Newsweek, everybody did big
01:35:05
things on the book. Why at that moment
01:35:07
did that work out? I I have a theory
01:35:09
which is that a a lot of people in media
01:35:12
knew me or knew of me but I never had
01:35:15
done anything public and it it took a
01:35:17
lot of courage to do and when I for me I
01:35:20
talk about things that were very
01:35:21
personal in that book and uh and in the
01:35:24
other books as well and it took a lot of
01:35:26
courage in fact I went and met with two
01:35:27
authors beforehand who had told really
01:35:31
hard stories about their lives and uh I
01:35:34
didn't know them I just asked for
01:35:35
meetings one of them was in DC and uh
01:35:38
and and I got some encouragement. I also
01:35:41
remember, by the way, meeting with a
01:35:43
group of of law enforcement officials
01:35:45
who were at my company for some reason,
01:35:47
and I told them a couple of stories from
01:35:48
that book, uh childhood stories, and
01:35:52
they were kind of a gasast. Everybody
01:35:54
was like, "Oh, it didn't stimulate any
01:35:56
conversation at the table." I knew I was
01:35:59
in a kind of territory that most people
01:36:01
run away from. And that too helped me uh
01:36:05
because I thought uh denial, denial,
01:36:08
denial, denial, denial all around the
01:36:09
table because every cop and every FBI
01:36:12
agent has a story about why they are
01:36:16
doing what they're doing just like every
01:36:18
doctor does, just like everybody does.
01:36:21
There's a reason that they're doing what
01:36:22
they're doing that usually will be
01:36:24
discoverable in uh in childhood. And
01:36:27
when they discover it, like who do you
01:36:29
want for example for a heart surgeon? Do
01:36:31
you want the heart surgeon whose
01:36:32
grandfather died of a heart attack in
01:36:34
his arms when he was 14 years old? Or do
01:36:37
you want the one who said heart surgery?
01:36:39
Oh, the earnings look really good on
01:36:40
heart surgery. I'll take heart surgery
01:36:42
as my major. Uh you know, you want the
01:36:44
one with a with a core uh with a with a
01:36:47
story uh a personal story.
01:36:50
>> We have a closing tradition where the
01:36:51
last guest leaves a question for the
01:36:52
next. And the question left for you, not
01:36:54
knowing who they were leaving it for, is
01:36:56
where do you think the origin of your
01:36:58
purpose and meaning comes from
01:37:01
objectively?
01:37:05
>> Okay, give me 25 minutes of silence.
01:37:10
This is I guess it's somewhat of a
01:37:14
spiritual
01:37:16
answer uh which is that I believe in I I
01:37:22
tend to go with everything is
01:37:24
predetermined
01:37:26
meaning down to the smallest tree in the
01:37:29
smallest town in the smallest place uh
01:37:32
it's going to be that's how it was going
01:37:34
to be. Now, I have a scientific version
01:37:37
of this, which is that if you're I
01:37:39
remember one day I was in Fiji and I was
01:37:43
swimming in front of my house and the
01:37:44
the water's just 4t deep in front of my
01:37:47
house because it's on a reef so you can
01:37:48
walk on it and then you get to the end
01:37:50
of the reef, you get to the deep water
01:37:51
and I was standing in the in the 4ft
01:37:53
deep water and suddenly a massive
01:37:56
rainstorm came just like theop bop, you
01:37:58
know, hitting you in the head and then
01:38:00
it stopped immediately and immediately
01:38:02
after that this massive school of fish
01:38:05
about this big just started jumping out
01:38:07
of the water in front of me and it's
01:38:08
noisy. IT'S LIKE
01:38:11
as they were going around and they go in
01:38:12
a whole circle around me and then
01:38:14
they're and then they're gone. And
01:38:17
immediately after this the tide which
01:38:20
was rising, it goes up and down as you
01:38:22
know twice a day. Um the tide really got
01:38:26
strong where I was standing and it was
01:38:28
coming in as opposed to going out. And
01:38:30
so I was really like standing there like
01:38:32
this and I was looking around and I
01:38:34
thought, "This better be enough
01:38:36
stimulation for you, brother. Like I'd
01:38:39
just seen the giant rainstorm and then
01:38:41
the sun, the fish going nuts and then
01:38:43
this giant tide thing." And as soon as I
01:38:46
thought that, a whale breached right off
01:38:48
the reef, right? And uh and I and I
01:38:53
thought, "Holy [ __ ] man. You are seeing
01:38:55
one hell of a movie here." And then I
01:38:58
thought, in fact, I dreamed that night
01:39:00
that I was uh as if somebody had typed
01:39:06
in, "Show me what it would be like to be
01:39:09
standing on a reef in Fiji." Uh there
01:39:12
was no AI then, but to be standing on a
01:39:14
reef in Fiji and have a massive school
01:39:16
of fish go jumping up around you, have
01:39:18
a, you know, huge storm begin, have it
01:39:21
quickly get sunny, and then see a whale
01:39:23
breach in front of you as you're trying
01:39:24
to hold on to the reef is is is, you
01:39:27
know, so strong you can barely stand up.
01:39:28
Show me what that's like, Google. And
01:39:31
that I Gavin was like the eyes of
01:39:37
God, universe, whatever it may be that
01:39:40
you could like what is it like to be a
01:39:43
42year-old man who's had this diet this
01:39:46
day, this trip out to the reef, this
01:39:49
childhood, this experience? Is it all
01:39:52
predetermined? And I do believe it is.
01:39:55
And so the answer to that question is I
01:39:57
believe it's out of my hands. I may get
01:40:00
the choices uh you know is there free
01:40:02
will something is presented to me go
01:40:03
left go right uh I I might get the
01:40:06
choice but what is presented to me what
01:40:09
is presented to me is not up to me.
01:40:12
>> Are you telling me that life is
01:40:13
consciousness trying to understand
01:40:15
itself. Someone said that to me once and
01:40:17
it was quite a compelling thought.
01:40:18
>> The idea was dropped into my skull so
01:40:21
quickly like it was a journalistic
01:40:23
report that said here's the way the
01:40:25
world works. something or somebody or
01:40:28
everybody or everything types into
01:40:31
Google what it wants to see and
01:40:33
occasionally you are the body that it
01:40:37
works through because if the rest of the
01:40:39
universe and by the way kind of
01:40:41
interesting this very moment we're in
01:40:42
Stephen because that experience I had is
01:40:46
now being relayed
01:40:47
>> to a few million people courtesy of you
01:40:50
and your question and that question in
01:40:51
this podcast. So now you do know a
01:40:53
little bit about what it's like to stand
01:40:55
in the water with the the current trying
01:40:58
to pull you over and see a whole school
01:41:00
of fish go around you and see a whale
01:41:01
breach right in front of you and see
01:41:03
this this massive rainstorm come and go
01:41:05
in a matter of minutes. Uh now you get a
01:41:07
little piece of that experience. Now do
01:41:09
I think here's the big the punchline. Do
01:41:11
I think I created that experience? No
01:41:13
[ __ ] way. I don't. I think it's
01:41:16
predetermined. And I think the I said to
01:41:19
you the scientific version is you're
01:41:21
gonna ask me this question and that's
01:41:23
the answer you're going to get. That's
01:41:25
what I believe based on what I ate
01:41:27
today, based on what I ate 40 years ago,
01:41:30
based on childhood, based on who you are
01:41:32
and who I am. That's the answer you're
01:41:34
going to get.
01:41:35
>> And who left the question
01:41:36
>> and who left it and how their day was
01:41:38
and what they ate that day and
01:41:39
everything else. I believe in
01:41:41
predetermination. It is um it comes from
01:41:44
a teacher of mine in India my best
01:41:46
teacher in life Nisarada wrote a book
01:41:48
called I am that recommended to
01:41:50
everybody and then his student who's now
01:41:53
died uh Romesh Basakar who I got to go
01:41:56
see and spend time with in India who was
01:41:57
an important teacher for me who
01:41:59
basically said
01:42:02
every day at 9:00 a.m. He had satsang in
01:42:04
his house basically. People could come
01:42:06
and ask questions. Uh uh and and it was
01:42:08
sort of he he happened to be Indian but
01:42:11
it was sort of Buddhist in nature. And
01:42:12
somebody said to him, "Well, are you
01:42:13
just saying we're all robots?" And he
01:42:16
said, "YES, EXACTLY CORRECT. We're all
01:42:17
robots." And then the person said,
01:42:19
"Well, why should I even get out of bed
01:42:20
in the morning?" And he said, "Try it.
01:42:23
Try and stay in bed." And he said,
01:42:25
"After a few days, you'll be up and
01:42:27
about. You'll be doing something. You'll
01:42:28
be motivated to do something." So um
01:42:31
that is my answer to your question which
01:42:34
obviously uh I only heard this second
01:42:37
and the answer only came this second.
01:42:40
Kevin, thank you. Thank you for opening
01:42:42
my eyes in so many ways. You've written
01:42:44
so many of these great books. All of
01:42:46
them I'm going to link below. The newest
01:42:47
one here is called Forbidden Facts:
01:42:49
Government Deceit and Suppression about
01:42:50
Brain Damage from Childhood Vaccines.
01:42:52
There's another book about children
01:42:53
here. Protecting the the gift, keeping
01:42:55
children and teenagers safe and parents
01:42:56
sane. The Gift of Fear, survival signals
01:42:59
that protect us from violence.
01:43:00
>> And I think those are the only three you
01:43:02
need to link. And my reason is these are
01:43:04
kind of specialty books
01:43:05
>> additions. Okay, fine. So, I'll link
01:43:06
these below for everyone to see. Um, I
01:43:08
highly recommend checking all of Gavin's
01:43:10
work work out. Um, and these are going
01:43:12
to be in the comment section below if if
01:43:14
anyone wants to read more about some of
01:43:16
the things we've touched on. You've
01:43:17
touched on all these books today, but if
01:43:18
you want to go deeper on any of these
01:43:20
subjects, this is your opportunity to do
01:43:21
so. And is there anywhere else people
01:43:22
can go to find you if they're interested
01:43:24
in your
01:43:24
>> I mean our website is gdba.com and
01:43:28
probably gavand debecker.com works. The
01:43:30
website is I don't even solicit new
01:43:32
clients. We don't have any marketing or
01:43:34
anything like that. The website is there
01:43:35
for one purpose which is attracting
01:43:38
candidates for employment because we are
01:43:40
hiring a lot of people all the time. So
01:43:42
that's what the website does but there
01:43:44
may be other information there that's
01:43:45
valuable for people. I don't know. Well,
01:43:47
if anyone's young and fit and strong and
01:43:48
wants to work with Gavin, then um I'll
01:43:51
link the website below as well to see
01:43:53
all of the jobs available. Gavin, thank
01:43:54
you so much. It's certainly I mean
01:43:55
there's so many things that blow my
01:43:56
mind, but one one of the most important
01:43:58
things for me is actually just this
01:43:59
lesson about intuition and that even and
01:44:02
that to listen to it more and to be more
01:44:06
upfront
01:44:08
with people when I my intuition isn't is
01:44:12
telling me something
01:44:14
>> because you're right. I think we're
01:44:15
we're all very good at um tuning the
01:44:17
volume of our intuition down and society
01:44:19
kind of teaches us to gaslight ourselves
01:44:21
and double guess. Gavin, thank you.
01:44:23
>> Uh thank you too and thanks for what
01:44:24
you're doing. You are one of my teachers
01:44:26
as well. Young man, I get to say at 71.
01:44:30
>> Thank you. YouTube have this new crazy
01:44:32
algorithm where they know exactly what
01:44:34
video you would like to watch next based
01:44:36
on AI and all of your viewing behavior.
01:44:38
And the algorithm says that this video
01:44:41
is the perfect video for you. It's
01:44:43
different for everybody looking right
01:44:44
now.