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From My Garden Shed To $100m Business Empire! “That Letter Was The End Of Represent” - George Heaton

March 25, 2024 / 01:42:53

This episode features George Heaton, founder of the fashion brand Represent, discussing his journey from starting the brand in a shed to achieving significant revenue growth. Key topics include work-life balance, the influence of family, the importance of discipline over motivation, and the challenges of entrepreneurship.

George shares insights about his upbringing, particularly the impact of his parents on his work ethic. He talks about his father's role as a disciplined figure and his mother's encouragement, which shaped his ambition and drive.

The conversation also touches on the struggles George faced when the brand hit a plateau and the pivotal moment when he had to reinvent both himself and the business. He emphasizes the importance of hiring the right people and being open to change.

George reflects on the emotional toll of entrepreneurship, including moments of anxiety and self-doubt, particularly during challenging times like dealing with trademark issues. He highlights the significance of community and customer connection in building a successful brand.

Finally, George discusses his vision for Represent as a lifestyle brand and the future plans for expansion, including new product lines and physical stores, while maintaining a focus on quality and customer experience.

TL;DR

George Heaton shares his entrepreneurial journey with Represent, emphasizing discipline, family influence, and the importance of community in building a successful brand.

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you know when people talk about work

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life balance what's your honest opinion

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of that Kobe Bryant wasn't doing three

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throws at 3:00 a.m. for no reason but

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there's a cost to that right George

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heeden the founder of global fashion

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brand represent warn by the weekend post

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Malone Justin Bieber one of the most

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popular Luxury Street brands in the

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world when I was 18 starting this brand

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it was just me and my brother in my

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dad's shed figuring out products and

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where we could take the brand but then

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we went from doing 10 15 sales to like a

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th000 every day of the week 2,000 3,000

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4,000 we were making money at that time

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more than what we should have in our

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early 20s so we're [ __ ] around a lot

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alcohol girls cars and we're doing like

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35 million revenue and was like we're

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going to do 50 million next year but we

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we don't know what we're doing now the

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business is doing about $100 million

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that's when the realization came that

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you don't need to be good at business to

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own a business there's people that are

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so much better at things than you they

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can lay the foundations for it to become

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a billion dollar band and you can focus

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on what you're actually good at that was

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a car list that just changed everything

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we're building this there's no seing to

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what it can be that was until we got a

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letter

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from that was the worst day in the

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business it was rock bottom but the best

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view of Heaven is from hell right you've

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got to get to the bottom of that

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mountain to start re climbing it it

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became this driving force that I thought

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who cannot stop that and then what

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happens it's absolutely crazy to me that

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so many of you have decided to watch our

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show um and so many of you have decided

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to subscribe to our show we now have

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five million subscribers on YouTube

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which is a number that I just can't

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comprehend and it's a dream that I

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absolutely never could have had we

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started the dire of a just over 3 years

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ago now and in my wildest expectations

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we might have had 100,000 subscribers by

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now so you can imagine how shocked I am

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that so many of you have chosen to tune

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into these conversations every week um

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and spend some time with us so thank you

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and I made a deal with you I made a deal

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that if you subscribed to this show that

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we would continue to raise the bar and

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in

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2024 we're going to raise the BARC never

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before I've been working for the last

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nine months on a surprise for all of you

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that have subscribed to the show and I'm

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very excited to deliver that for you the

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production's going to change we're going

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to go even further with our guests and

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we're going to tell even more Global

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stories so as always if you appreciate

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what we're doing here the simple free

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favorite I'll ask for you is to hit the

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Subscribe button let's get on with the

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[Music]

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episode

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George what is the mission that you're

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on it's just to be the best version of

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myself really just to show up and do

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everything at the highest level I can

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what influence did your parents have

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because I I've heard you talk about your

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mother and your father a lot but let's

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start with your father what kind of

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influence did he have on you I guess

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when I was growing up he had he had a

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bit more than what everyone else had in

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my town so like he had a Range Rover and

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he dropped me off to school in that

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Range Rover and all the kids felt that

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was sick so automatically I felt proud

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of that so I was like I want to be like

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this like what is it that my dad's got

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that other people don't have um and the

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way he showed up with my family and how

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he would he wouldn't like I I've never

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seen him drunk even to this day I've

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never seen him drunk like he was a role

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model is like a this stoic guy that

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would just work hard show up drop his

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kids off at school come to football

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training every single night like he

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would be there for me and I think that

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was just like even though it was never

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spoke about in the household it just

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like created my own discipline I guess

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was he an emotional man no no no emotion

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I've never seen him cry has he ever said

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I love

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you to me I don't know maybe as a young

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kid but not not recently now what about

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your mom very supportive she used to sit

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on the end of my bed every night and be

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like George you got to make it you got

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to carry your brother and sister like

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you've got you've got to carry this

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family on which was quite a hard thing

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to take in when I was young um but she

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just like affirmed that every single day

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and like she loved the work I did and

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the art that I did and she would try and

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express that to all her friends and talk

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about me a lot and it was always like

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something that was kind

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of um it kind of pushed me a bit you

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know gave gave me like words of words of

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affirmation I guess confidence was that

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was her saying that like a frequent

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thing I'm just trying to figure out why

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she would say that to you versus your

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siblings is presumably because you're

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you're the oldest no I was a middle

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child brother's old um but Mike kind

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of he was very within himself as as as a

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younger kid and um didn't come out much

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and he just did his own thing whereas I

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would express myself a little bit more

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than him in within the family and I

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think my mom saw that as a way that I

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could be the the carrier of whatever

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that boat was later down in life and

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your parents what did they do so your

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dad was my dad sold mini buses so him

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and his his dad were in business so that

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was kind of like me and my brother and

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like me and my brother they looked the

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same they did the same thing like had

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the same demeanor same attitude to

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everything and I think that's why me and

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my brother went into business cuz we saw

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that the family had been able to do that

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um prior did you have any idea when you

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were a young man like 12 13 14 that you

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would be in this

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industry yeah I did to be fair looking

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back at it I I had sensitive skin as a

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kid and anything that fit me wrong or

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like itched me or like like a back neck

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label or the way a pant fit would

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irritate me so much that I'd take it to

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my Grands and she was a tailor so she

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would taper things and take necks out of

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things and she would make sure I knew

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what the composition was before buying

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garments and when I look back at it now

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I realized that that being that

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particular so young kind of stemmed into

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how I've built the brand and what it

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stands for and the quality and

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everything like that and Michael I met

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Michael before when the first time we

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had you on the podcast I think you had

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eight employees and Michael was there as

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well yeah and he comes across as a bit

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of a genius but a bit of a introverted

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genius what was the difference in your

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skill set cuz you both went and studied

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like art well graphic design what was

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the difference in your skill set there

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wasn't really one he was just better

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than me okay better than me at Art

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definitely and cuz he was my big brother

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I looked up to him so like through

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Primary School like he was into like

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heavy metal and rock and like California

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and surf and skate and that wasn't

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really a particular thing in Bolton like

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everyone was in tracksuits and had

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shaped heads and tiens and smoked on the

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corner we were skating down these cobbly

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roads with long hair and like big DC

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shoes on and skinny jeans and I I just

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wanted to be him like until like early

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20s like he was he was my idol really

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and when did um when did you make the

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decision to apply your artistic skills

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to clothing college so we had a project

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where we had to make we had to make

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something of our art that could sell and

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Mike had Mike was two years ahead of me

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so he'd already done the same course I

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was on and he'd done like a little

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Gallery where people would buy his

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drawings and I looked at that and I

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looked at my dad and my dad wanted us to

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come into the business at the time and

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the last thing I wanted to do was that

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but also I didn't want to sit and wait

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around all my life to sell a painting

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for 40 grand um and I remember going

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into the class and I remember the

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teacher telling me that average salary

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of a graphic designer was 30k and I'd go

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home and I'd speak to my dad I'd be like

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hold on if University is going to cost

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me 9k a year and the average salary is

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40k a year and like I can't [ __ ] buy

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myself a Range Rover with that

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and I wanted to be like my dad so I was

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like what what is it that I can make

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that I can make money from like everyone

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wants to be successful right there's no

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denying that like money was such a big

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thing back then that I wanted and I was

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so particular about the clothing like I

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said about my grand and taking things in

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and how we'd adjust all my garments that

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there was this there was this like

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upbringing of social media Instagram was

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just starting and YouTube was just

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starting and I I I managed to watch a

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few videos of like artists like shepher

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Ferry who owned o and Nikki diamonds who

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own Diamond Supply and huff and these

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guys over here on the West Coast that

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were just selling like t-shirts with

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graphics on and I thought why can't we

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do we be the British version of that

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what have we got to do to do that and

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this college project came up and I just

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thought I'll give it a go you know a

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second ago you said being a graphic

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designer wasn't going to allow you to

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buy the same car as your dad was how

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much was your dad a driving force behind

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your sort of with

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um your decision- making and like when I

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say that like was there really a

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motivation to try and beat him or at

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least get to where he was yeah

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definitely definitely and a very

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conscious motivation

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yeah and because you thought that make

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him proud or make yourself proud yeah I

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thought it'd make the family proud but

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as well it was just like no one thought

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in my family that or even through my

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friends or through my mom and dad's

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friends whoever was around us no one

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thought that we'd ever be anything no

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one thought that like our art could s

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and we could make money that way and we

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could build careers that way everyone

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always expected us especially my grand

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just expected us to go into the family

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business having listened to some of your

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interviews and stuff and gotten to know

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you it does feel like there's a bit of a

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chip on your shoulder and I'm not

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necessarily sure who the chip on your

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shoulder has come from I think a lot of

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it self-inflicted I think I just like to

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have something there to prove something

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wrong or something right maybe Pro

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myself right comes at a cost though it

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does come at a cost yeah but I'm willing

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to take that cost on are you sure yeah

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I've I've been doing it now for 13 years

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I'm not going to stop anytime soon and

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like I only feel now that we're just

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getting started with it so I'm really

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curious about this early phase which I

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kind of call the shedding phase where an

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entrepreneur makes the decision that

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they're going to do something unusual in

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the context of their like current social

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group and the shedding phase I Define as

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like when your family start thinking

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you're a bit weird and you feel the

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resistance from your family and then

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you're like boys from school start

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thinking you think you're Richard

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Branson or whatever and they start

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making little comments can you recount

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what your shedding facee was like I

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think that was it I think like a lot of

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people who was around just laughed at it

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a lot of people just thought it was a

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joke and it got to that stage where then

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it was like oh it's your dad's business

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your dad's your dad buys the stock and

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like like this is a family business you

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guys aren't making this money and

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whatever until it gets to a point where

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it like just completely exceeds what

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people think that is and then they seem

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to come back around and then they buying

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your product and then they're

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congratulating you on the drops and then

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they're your biggest fans do you

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remember any comments that you heard oh

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from C people yeah definitely I remember

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there was one where I'd bought this R8

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and it was I must have been 19 or 20

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which is a car right right yeah and an

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Audi and um I it packed up in in my town

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where I was and I remember getting a

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message on Facebook

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saying that car your dad's bought you is

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packed up here he's going to get a

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ticket on them yellow lines and I was

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thinking like come on how did it make

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you feel it made me want to go to the

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next level with everything over and over

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to so it drown out that noise so it was

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like okay maybe his dad was

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successful running a a small business

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had a a nice house and whatever I wanted

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to take that to like a hundred times

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that to prove that it wasn't that I

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guess and so after you leave College

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well it's during college right when you

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sort of start the business MH is that

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2012 yeah when you first started the

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business and then Michael joins you a

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year later after you started selling

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T-shirts yeah he was doing a bit of the

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graphics here and there and um I would

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run them to the Run orders to the post

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office and then at night would sit and

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draw together and then I'd speak to

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suppliers in China and stuff like that

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and it just it just rolled on for the

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three years that I was at University

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what was that first year like that first

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year in business uh from what I can

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remember it wasn't really business it

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was just going to The Back Garden where

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my dad shed was speak to some suppliers

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in China go to university complete my

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whatever it was I was doing there come

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back pack orders speak to customers do

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it all again every single day for like

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the first three years how big was the

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business in the first year probably

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turned over about 10,000 pounds yeah

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what about the second year

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um maybe like 50k I think the third year

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is when we decided to actually make it a

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limited company and get an accountant

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and how much did you do in the third

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year roughly in terms of Revenue I can't

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remember I think it was around half a

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mill okay because I remember going to

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the accountants and we we did all this

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um we literally like T the business

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apart and rebuilt it and he said to us

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at the end of this thing like if you've

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got 100 Grand in the bank you should

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carry on with it if not you've spent

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three years just like doing nothing and

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it's going nowhere and uh luckily we had

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way more than that in the bank and it's

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was like okay let's let's do this for

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real you spent two years you know and by

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the end of the second year you're

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generating 50k which is like not enough

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really to pay yourself a salary whilst

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covering costs of the business no I

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didn't take a salary for seven or eight

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years so surely that Point people around

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you are telling you that you're an idiot

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and they've got quite good evidence yeah

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to suggest that you're actually wasting

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your time but I I never had never had a

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big doubt that it wouldn't work I've had

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a lot of doubts but never had a doubt

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that it wouldn't work and I knew that I

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would do everything I could to make sure

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it worked what did work how would you

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define worked at that that moment like

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what was success at that moment success

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was putting products online and it

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selling and seeing that launch night and

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seeing 500 people log in and buy

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something or a thousand people and

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seeing that incremental gain over time

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that was what was like the driving force

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more people following the brand more

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people sending DMS that that was it

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really why don't people start and I say

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that BEC You Know in hindsight now

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you're going to understand looking back

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at your own work the quality of it what

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you went through and you probably have a

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pretty good idea on why people just

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don't start you must have get so many

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DMS from people that have an idea or

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fashion idea or anything why don't they

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start I think it's that pressure of

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failure the the feeling of Doubt

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like and as well wasting time if they've

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got a family or they've got a job where

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it's full-time then to start something

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else on the side when they've got to see

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to the family or the girlfriend or the

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wife or whatever it is like you don't

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have much time to go and do something

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else that you then hope will eventually

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in the future take off or become

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successful and it takes so long like it

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does take I know it's a lot of people

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say takes 10 years to become an overan

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night success and I think that's true

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you you spent almost four years um from

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2012 till I guess no two years 2012 till

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about 2015 is kind of just effectively

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messing around yeah messing around

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really messing around a lot of messing

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around learning learning yeah is

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probably a better better use of words

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and enjoying it as well like me and my

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friends had sit in my dad's shed like

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all night just figuring out products and

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things that we wanted to do and where we

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could take the brand and I'd love to go

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back to them times cuz they were great

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and we had nothing and no one was really

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watching us but we thought everyone was

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watching us and we thought it was the

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next big [ __ ] Powerhouse of a

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brand um so yeah it was it was fun like

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I don't regret any of it you know what

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putting these two questions together

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about like why people don't start and

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also those three years where you weren't

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really making any any money yeah um and

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you in the shed in your GR in your dad's

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house

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why didn't you quit because as I said a

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second ago there must have been so much

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force telling you to go and get a real

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job yeah but why didn't you quit I think

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it just leads back to again proving

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people wrong and proving myself right

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and like the only other option I had was

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to go and work for my dad and I didn't

00:16:47

want to do that because I'd done that

00:16:49

all my teens and I hated it I hated

00:16:51

cleaning mini buses and ripping stickers

00:16:53

off the sides of Windows and going to

00:16:55

auctions and bidding on cars and stuff

00:16:57

like that wasn't me and that was the

00:16:59

only other option I had so it was like

00:17:01

this is it it's all all or nothing

00:17:04

really when you look back at the uh

00:17:06

products that you made in that shed how

00:17:08

do you feel about them there was a few

00:17:09

great ones and a few absolutely terrible

00:17:11

ones I remember the first collection I

00:17:14

moved to China because originally I

00:17:17

would buy stocking from America print it

00:17:19

in the UK and like make zero profit on

00:17:22

it but it was great and it felt great

00:17:24

and then eventually we decided like

00:17:25

let's try and make some profit on a on a

00:17:27

collection and I remember this

00:17:29

collection coming back after a few

00:17:31

months and like all the fits were wrong

00:17:33

and the Fabrics were wrong and I I just

00:17:36

cried on my mom's floor for like hours

00:17:38

that night um so there was there was a

00:17:41

lot of really rough times as well there

00:17:42

was a lot of fun but it was all just

00:17:44

like figuring out different things and

00:17:46

like learning how to do every single job

00:17:48

within that business because you know if

00:17:50

I'm a young fashion designer or a young

00:17:52

creative and I look at your work now I

00:17:55

look at the product that represents

00:17:57

putting out now it's easy to see how one

00:18:00

might be put off from starting right

00:18:03

because I look at yourself Jesus Christ

00:18:05

like you can't compete with it you can't

00:18:07

compete with that like that's more than

00:18:09

10 years of like Mastery so I'm just not

00:18:11

going to bother starting what what do

00:18:13

you say to those people say look you got

00:18:16

to put the work in it's going to be 10

00:18:17

years like regardless of what industry

00:18:20

it is or what product you're making like

00:18:22

I wouldn't even think about the next two

00:18:23

to three years I'd think about 10 years

00:18:26

like that's the mindset you've got to

00:18:28

have and and it's not going to be easy

00:18:30

and it's not going to be fun but you

00:18:32

just got to do everything you can to

00:18:34

make it work so the brand kind of scales

00:18:37

up

00:18:38

to what sort of Revenue number from 2012

00:18:42

up to 2018 we built it up to like 6 to 7

00:18:45

mil MH so like 2015 16 17 it was just

00:18:49

flat like 6 7 mil year over year yeah

00:18:53

and we thought that was a ceiling in for

00:18:55

at the at the time as our young s we not

00:18:58

knowledge and no real thought in the

00:19:01

industry like we thought that we were at

00:19:03

the ceiling of what represent was and

00:19:06

then that's when the realization came

00:19:08

that like if we carry on doing what

00:19:11

we're doing it's not going to

00:19:13

work and this brand will fail what was

00:19:16

the advice you needed at that point that

00:19:18

you didn't get um I definitely didn't

00:19:21

get the advice but it was to just

00:19:24

completely restart refocus go again

00:19:27

build a new team and and and go into

00:19:31

what we already knew that was there

00:19:32

waiting for us we knew what we were

00:19:35

capable of we just weren't doing it what

00:19:37

weren't you doing focusing on our

00:19:39

consumer asking them what they wanted

00:19:41

speaking to them being within the

00:19:44

community of what represent was and

00:19:46

giving them what they wanted when you

00:19:48

say the the point about team MH um you

00:19:51

said rebuild a new team when you started

00:19:53

the brand who did who were you hiring

00:19:55

all my

00:19:57

friends I hired all my friends all my

00:19:59

close friends cuz I wanted to enjoy it

00:20:02

and I didn't know think about hiring

00:20:04

people I didn't want to interview people

00:20:05

and bring them into my dad's garden shed

00:20:08

so up until we had a unit like it was

00:20:10

just me and my friends and we were all

00:20:12

just doing 50 jobs each no one had a

00:20:14

title no one knew what was going on um

00:20:17

and it didn't work but now we're at such

00:20:20

a level where there's a hundred people

00:20:22

in the business two of those friends

00:20:24

that came in right at the start are

00:20:26

still in the business and a very high up

00:20:28

in the business and have amazing

00:20:30

successful lives so half worked and half

00:20:33

didn't when you say it didn't work what

00:20:36

does that mean in reality it means that

00:20:39

like we I guess it's all not my fault as

00:20:43

such but it's all

00:20:44

it's I I brought people into the brand

00:20:48

that shouldn't have been in fashion or

00:20:50

shouldn't have been doing what I'd asked

00:20:51

them to do or like their career didn't

00:20:54

go the the way that it should have gone

00:20:57

because we were just just Plateau at

00:20:59

this base of

00:21:02

like a a quite a boring fashion brand at

00:21:04

the time and like did we had to split up

00:21:07

and we had to regroup and start again

00:21:09

and the ones that stayed have now stayed

00:21:11

forever which is insane and the ones

00:21:14

that left they've have' carried on with

00:21:16

their lives what have you learned about

00:21:17

um hiring again when I say the advice

00:21:20

that you you wish you'd gotten at the

00:21:23

time before you'd hired a single person

00:21:25

that you might give if you could speak

00:21:26

to George at 18 years old and you could

00:21:28

give hiring advice on how to pick people

00:21:30

what would you say hire Fast Fire faster

00:21:34

interesting I spent a lot of years

00:21:38

where I didn't hire people because I

00:21:40

didn't think they would fit into the

00:21:42

brand and even though they don't seem a

00:21:45

certain way or they're into the same

00:21:47

brands that I'm into or they follow this

00:21:49

kind of um industry that we're in

00:21:52

whether it's streetware or luxury or

00:21:53

high fashioned like there is still

00:21:55

unbelievable people that can do amazing

00:21:57

things way better than what can do in

00:21:59

all levels of business that don't look

00:22:01

like they should be or don't seem like

00:22:03

they would um so just like realizing

00:22:07

that back back then would have really

00:22:09

helped the business

00:22:10

grow I think sometimes like young

00:22:12

Founders um I remember just thinking

00:22:14

back on my own experience we're

00:22:16

sometimes scared to hire people that are

00:22:18

like more experienced than we are

00:22:20

because how are we going to manage them

00:22:22

and all those kind of concerns and also

00:22:24

why would they want to come here you

00:22:26

know why would they want to come here

00:22:27

was a massive thing for me really yeah

00:22:29

why would want why would someone want to

00:22:30

come to a smaller brand than what they

00:22:32

were at um and especially in that time

00:22:34

when it wasn't growing cuz it's not you

00:22:36

don't want to go into a company that's

00:22:37

not growing but like now it's completely

00:22:40

different the the whole ecosystem that

00:22:43

we've built and who wants to come into

00:22:45

the brand and like the way the brand is

00:22:47

growing it's now like we have the

00:22:48

abundance of everyone wanting to join

00:22:50

the brand so it's it's it's now like

00:22:52

it's hard to pick and choose who we

00:22:54

bring into the brand rather than going

00:22:55

out there and looking for them and

00:22:57

trying to get them into brand you know

00:22:58

what I mean mhm it's so like Catch 22

00:23:01

you know I have a lot of dragon Den

00:23:03

Investments and these are typically

00:23:04

early stage companies that often quite

00:23:07

young and I sit with them all the time

00:23:08

and I I talk to them about this Paradox

00:23:11

of um there it's some kind of

00:23:14

multifaceted thing they are a very young

00:23:17

team very inexperienced they have small

00:23:19

budgets relatively small budgets so

00:23:22

they're thinking we can't pay an

00:23:25

exceptional really experienced person

00:23:27

because £1,000 salary is so much for us

00:23:31

and because they don't and also the

00:23:33

stuff you said about like why would

00:23:34

anyone want to come work in this like

00:23:35

shed right because of that they never

00:23:38

grow to be able to pay for those people

00:23:41

to be able to create an environment

00:23:42

where exceptional people would come

00:23:44

right so the only way like I see of

00:23:46

kickstarting the process is to bring in

00:23:50

exceptional people now um yeah that

00:23:54

makes sense pay for it now and you'll

00:23:56

see the increased outcome later

00:23:59

definitely yeah yeah like bringing in

00:24:02

exceptional people will never be a bad

00:24:05

thing in the business but it feels like

00:24:07

it because they they because it costs so

00:24:08

much so much yeah yeah but you're also

00:24:11

going to learn so much from them just

00:24:13

especially if you're a small team and

00:24:14

you're bringing in people that have been

00:24:15

in there for 10 years and done what

00:24:17

you're trying to do like the in the

00:24:19

information and the value that they

00:24:21

provide just to open your mind up to

00:24:23

what's actually possible can get you to

00:24:25

the next level like I've brought a CEO

00:24:27

into represent that was handling a $500

00:24:29

million business for him to come into my

00:24:32

business that at the time it was only

00:24:34

doing 20 mil and to tell me what's

00:24:36

possible and run me through different

00:24:38

geographies and how products can have a

00:24:40

lifetime and how you can maintain a

00:24:43

constant like steady sale of one product

00:24:45

for so many years when I we were just

00:24:47

thinking that you put something online

00:24:49

let it sell out and then you move on to

00:24:50

the next thing and there's so many

00:24:52

different like factors that can come in

00:24:54

and different areas of growth and sales

00:24:56

and categories and all these different

00:24:58

things that just make you realize oh you

00:25:00

can turn the business from 20 to 50 mil

00:25:03

by just doing

00:25:04

this but you would never know that if

00:25:06

you were just in your little group of

00:25:07

people that you've grown up with and

00:25:09

done it with forever and you don't even

00:25:11

know that you don't know it like it's an

00:25:12

unknown know no because there's no one

00:25:14

teaching you and I and that's why I'm

00:25:16

trying to do this YouTube channel and

00:25:18

trying to be so expressive but also um

00:25:22

like authentic on the YouTube and on

00:25:25

Instagram by telling people this and

00:25:26

showing them how what we actually do and

00:25:28

how we do it because when I was 18

00:25:31

starting this brand I had nowhere to

00:25:33

look I had no mentors I there was no one

00:25:35

in fashion that would wanted to come and

00:25:36

help us and there's nothing like that I

00:25:38

could just go online and find and and

00:25:41

buying a course to build a brand isn't

00:25:42

going to work that's that's the biggest

00:25:44

load of [ __ ] ever um so like you're

00:25:47

stuck in your own in your own ways and

00:25:49

you you've got limited

00:25:50

beliefs and you don't know what you

00:25:52

don't know so how you how again if you

00:25:54

could like go back cuz there's so many

00:25:57

young kids that are going to be looking

00:25:58

up to you thinking okay George I get it

00:26:00

there's lots of things that I don't know

00:26:02

where do I go to find the answers what's

00:26:03

the best way to go to find these answers

00:26:05

that are going to help me go to the next

00:26:09

level I think you got to research now I

00:26:12

think everyone's very explicitly

00:26:15

authentic online like if they want to be

00:26:18

the next George Heaton you can scroll

00:26:20

down my Instagram for the last 10 years

00:26:22

and see exactly what I've done and where

00:26:23

I've been and how I've done it who we've

00:26:25

done it with or you can go on the

00:26:27

YouTube channel and backload a

00:26:29

documentary that we did three years ago

00:26:31

that shows the last 10 years and then

00:26:33

now you do it with um the diary of the

00:26:35

SE behind behind the scenes as well so

00:26:38

the people are willing as well to like

00:26:41

give you advice I give people advice on

00:26:43

social media all the time but that

00:26:45

decision then to bring in that

00:26:47

CEO where did that information come from

00:26:50

I spent a good couple years just really

00:26:53

like rebuilding myself when that when

00:26:55

that Plateau happened um there was like

00:26:58

18 months to two years where it was just

00:27:00

before Co started and I wanted to just

00:27:03

like really build myself up into someone

00:27:06

that I wasn't at that time but I wanted

00:27:08

to be why what was going on in your

00:27:10

world I I felt like I was stuck and like

00:27:12

like I said we we had limited beliefs we

00:27:14

didn't know where to go and what to do

00:27:16

it's like how do I then figure that out

00:27:18

if I'm not got a mentor or someone

00:27:20

telling me which way to go with it I've

00:27:22

got to do it myself so it was like read

00:27:24

every single self- health book look into

00:27:27

every single fashion show figure out

00:27:30

like what it is we want to do and where

00:27:32

we want to go with this brand and how

00:27:33

we're going to build it up but also with

00:27:35

ourselves was this the period in 2018

00:27:38

where you said you lost the motivation

00:27:39

for the business yeah just before that

00:27:41

take me into that period of your life if

00:27:44

I'm a if I'm a fly on the wall what do I

00:27:46

see in in your world at that time where

00:27:49

you're like not excited about it not

00:27:51

excited about it because we were getting

00:27:54

a lot of push back from press and like

00:27:56

we were trying to do runway shows and

00:27:58

no stores wanted to buy us and our price

00:28:01

points weren't right and the way we were

00:28:03

taking the design wasn't right and that

00:28:06

was like painful because it was a

00:28:07

passion for us it was our love so like

00:28:09

that negative feedback was like kind of

00:28:12

painful at the time but we used it as

00:28:14

like a reset button and I looked at

00:28:17

myself as well at the same time and like

00:28:19

I wasn't putting everything into the

00:28:21

brand I wasn't going like full on with

00:28:24

it I was messing around and like

00:28:27

enjoying in my life as well cuz we were

00:28:29

making money at that time like more than

00:28:31

what we should have been doing in our

00:28:33

early 20s so we're [ __ ] around a lot

00:28:36

and I'm not going to sit here and lie

00:28:38

like we would we didn't know what we

00:28:40

were doing we were messing around and it

00:28:42

just got to a point where like that year

00:28:44

became unprofitable and for me to sit

00:28:47

there and think [ __ ] like I've done this

00:28:50

for the past seven or eight years and

00:28:52

now it's not making money that was like

00:28:55

that was the thing that then just that

00:28:58

was a car list that just changed

00:29:00

everything I just took a real good hard

00:29:02

look at what we are and who we were and

00:29:04

just changed it all what about you on on

00:29:06

a personal level at that at that time

00:29:08

you said you weren't happy with yourself

00:29:10

didn't why I hated the way I looked I

00:29:12

hated the way I came across on social

00:29:13

media I was very shy very

00:29:16

unconfident

00:29:18

um like terrible at hiring people and

00:29:20

just didn't like had not anger issues

00:29:23

but was always angry was always negative

00:29:26

always had like this pessimistic view of

00:29:27

everything

00:29:28

even the weather had pissed me

00:29:30

off um for a for a long time and I just

00:29:34

remember reading a few books and

00:29:36

thinking like why am I this way and how

00:29:38

do I change myself I even and like being

00:29:41

the artist I even redrew how I wanted to

00:29:43

look and it was like every single day

00:29:45

now I've got to work on being that guy

00:29:47

who is who is George Heaton that I want

00:29:49

him to be not who I am now you actually

00:29:52

Drew yeah yeah an a picture yeah I used

00:29:55

to look back at it all the time and just

00:29:56

think this this this is I wanted to

00:29:58

recreate myself and recreate the brand

00:30:01

what was the base you were starting from

00:30:02

at that point and how old were you at

00:30:04

this point 20 six I think I was 25 26 I

00:30:09

just like had a had a unhealthy

00:30:10

relationship with the way I worked and

00:30:14

even the food I at and like I wasn't I

00:30:16

wasn't healthy I wasn't doing well

00:30:20

didn't look great like didn't didn't

00:30:21

feel myself I didn't want to look at

00:30:22

myself in the mirror um you didn't want

00:30:26

to look at yourself in the mirror yeah

00:30:29

because I didn't like who I'd become and

00:30:30

like the I didn't like what the brand

00:30:32

had become either and the brand was my

00:30:34

life so it was like this all needs to

00:30:36

change when you say you didn't want to

00:30:38

look at yourself in the mirror do you

00:30:39

actually mean that or you saying that as

00:30:41

like a figure of speech I guess a figure

00:30:43

of speech but as well like realizing

00:30:45

that that I wanted to change a lot so

00:30:48

then when when you do want to change

00:30:50

then you don't like the way you are how

00:30:52

how did you know you wanted to change I

00:30:54

me that sounds like an like a slightly

00:30:55

peculiar question but I always think

00:30:58

about what it takes for someone to have

00:31:00

one of those moments in their life where

00:31:01

they go you know what enough is enough

00:31:03

yeah and sometimes I've always like

00:31:04

pondered I think I've said it a few

00:31:05

times on the show like do people have to

00:31:07

reach a certain Rock Bottom in their

00:31:09

lives before they go you know what 100%

00:31:12

And I see this with people now that um

00:31:15

we Inspire with 247 or who will send me

00:31:17

a DM and say look you've changed my life

00:31:18

through this or that the I think the

00:31:21

like the best view of Heaven is from

00:31:23

hell right I think you've got to get to

00:31:25

the bottom of that mountain to start re

00:31:27

climbing it I think if you just sit

00:31:29

around in the middle somewhere and and

00:31:31

life's just is what it is that was what

00:31:33

I was going through um and like I had a

00:31:36

girlfriend and we'd split up and that

00:31:38

was terrible and yeah the brand wasn't

00:31:40

doing well I got told it was

00:31:41

unprofitable and like I was just in this

00:31:44

[ __ ] what for me was rock bottom and

00:31:46

I know it doesn't sound bad compared to

00:31:48

a lot of other people's lives I

00:31:49

understand that but for me for where I'd

00:31:51

been on the trajectory that I thought I

00:31:53

was on it was Rock Bottom so was that

00:31:55

was like the reset so you drew a picture

00:31:58

of yourself and how you wanted to look

00:31:59

did you write anything about who you

00:32:01

wanted to be in terms of values or yeah

00:32:03

I've got a best friend who's done a very

00:32:05

similar transformation and they

00:32:07

literally wrote down like a set of

00:32:09

principles and it's it's in the notes of

00:32:11

their phone it's my friend Anthony and

00:32:14

he went from being in a place in his

00:32:15

life where he also figuratively couldn't

00:32:16

look himself in the mirror dropped

00:32:19

alcohol hit the gym and has turned it

00:32:21

around and he he has almost has this

00:32:23

like Ten Commandments in the notes of

00:32:25

his phone yeah you did something similar

00:32:27

exactly the same and still have them

00:32:28

that pop up every morning like reminders

00:32:30

on my phone um I found this guy called

00:32:33

Andy fitell and he had a book

00:32:36

called um 75 hard and it was like a

00:32:40

mental toughness challenge but it also

00:32:42

included a lot of working out in there

00:32:44

and it was like no alcohol drink this

00:32:46

much water read this much of a book and

00:32:49

just do it every single day for 75 days

00:32:51

write down five things you're going to

00:32:52

do that day and I did that and I started

00:32:55

doing it and I started seeing like these

00:32:57

crazy results in my life just with

00:32:59

everything just the way I could

00:33:01

structure my day and knowing that like I

00:33:03

had to put two workouts into a day one

00:33:05

had to be outside wanted to be inside so

00:33:07

structure the rest of the day around

00:33:09

that and then started learning how to

00:33:11

plan my day out better and where the

00:33:13

time was where I could go and do these

00:33:14

other things and like every night I

00:33:16

would read 10 pages of a book whichever

00:33:18

book that was

00:33:20

from all the ran holiday books and

00:33:23

Robert Green and everything like that so

00:33:24

I was learning all these things whilst I

00:33:26

was also doing this mental toughness

00:33:27

Challenge and it was like a 75 day thing

00:33:30

and I remember getting to getting to the

00:33:32

end of it and just thinking [ __ ] like

00:33:34

I'm I looked at myself then and I was

00:33:36

like okay I can see the change and you

00:33:38

know when you can see change that's when

00:33:40

you like really go into it you start

00:33:42

getting obsessed when you see whether

00:33:43

it's success or like your Fitness levels

00:33:46

go up or just the way you energy levels

00:33:50

are every day and just figuring out that

00:33:53

like these little indicators are

00:33:55

changing the way I'm and then at the

00:33:57

same time we were really working on the

00:33:58

business so the business was starting to

00:34:00

see a bit more success and that whole

00:34:02

thing the Cadence of that just kept

00:34:04

rolling and rolling and rolling and I

00:34:06

guess whether it's Obsession or

00:34:08

addiction I got addicted to it and like

00:34:10

there couldn't be a day go by where I

00:34:12

wouldn't work out or I wouldn't eat the

00:34:14

exact calories that I needed to eat or I

00:34:17

wouldn't sleep the exact like and I

00:34:19

needed to get the exact amount of sleep

00:34:20

that I wanted and it just completely

00:34:22

changed like the way I looked and the

00:34:24

like my my levels of fitness and

00:34:27

cardiovascular and strength and

00:34:28

everything like that I just went through

00:34:29

the roof cuz people will look at you now

00:34:32

and think that you know they'll see you

00:34:33

getting up at I don't know 5:00 a.m. in

00:34:35

the morning and going for like a 20 mile

00:34:37

run um and hit in the gym later that

00:34:39

evening running a business doing all

00:34:41

these things being super productive and

00:34:42

they'll probably think he was just born

00:34:45

with something that I don't have right

00:34:47

like he's just got this level of

00:34:48

motivation probably came in his DNA that

00:34:50

I don't have yeah and a lot of people do

00:34:53

say that a lot of people think that

00:34:55

think it's genetics or they think it's

00:34:56

steroids and stuff like that or they'll

00:34:58

just think that you're like wired in a

00:34:59

way from birth I used to think that as

00:35:01

well back when I was overweight and

00:35:04

unhealthy and like I'd look at people on

00:35:05

Instagram be like yep genetics whatever

00:35:08

yep he's on steroids I can't look like

00:35:11

that I've got a business to run like you

00:35:12

would you dismiss everything but it's

00:35:15

not and once you start doing it yourself

00:35:17

and you see those little gains and you

00:35:19

you get into it you you can really

00:35:21

change what is the starting point one

00:35:24

step at a time whether it's 10,000 steps

00:35:26

or doing even a 20 minute workout that's

00:35:29

all people need to do to

00:35:31

change because you'll start seeing

00:35:33

results regardless of what position

00:35:35

you're in right now if you can just keep

00:35:37

increasing incrementally what you're

00:35:39

doing in terms of Fitness or your

00:35:42

business or however like your sleep

00:35:43

whatever it is that you feel is not

00:35:45

right you'll see the change over time it

00:35:47

comes and it takes a long time takes a

00:35:50

really long time but it it happens it's

00:35:53

difficult to it's difficult to believe I

00:35:54

guess for some people because they they

00:35:56

kind of they see the mountain in front

00:35:58

of them and you're telling them listen

00:36:00

it's just one step at a time up that

00:36:02

mountain but they're just looking at the

00:36:03

top of the mountain going Jesus Christ

00:36:04

that's a long way away and the thought

00:36:06

that the the first steps to take are

00:36:08

small ones doesn't almost doesn't seem

00:36:10

believable yeah and and look same with

00:36:12

me like I would go head on into

00:36:14

something thinking that you could just

00:36:16

go out there and run a marathon within a

00:36:18

week and people do that and it and it it

00:36:20

crushes you and and then you have to

00:36:22

start again but it's just about finding

00:36:24

the rhythm of like what you enjoy and

00:36:26

and just going and just doing it and not

00:36:29

not really taking your foot off the gas

00:36:30

once you start doing it so jumping back

00:36:32

to 2018 then so the business is stagnant

00:36:35

during that period of time and you go on

00:36:37

this process of Reinventing yourself um

00:36:40

you also go on the process of

00:36:42

Reinventing the business yeah what does

00:36:45

that mean how did you reinvent the

00:36:47

business we stripped back all the

00:36:49

wholesale that we we were doing and we

00:36:51

focused on the DTC so we went into this

00:36:54

weekly drop thing and it was just right

00:36:57

it was just before like covid happened

00:36:59

and James who is the chief product

00:37:01

officer was like super keen on moving

00:37:04

our production out to Portugal it was

00:37:06

currently in the UK and Italy and it was

00:37:08

making no money and I had so many

00:37:11

arguments with him about it and like

00:37:12

hated this this way of thinking that he

00:37:15

was doing and like what he wanted to do

00:37:17

with the business and it got to like we

00:37:19

we had a massive heated argument about

00:37:21

it and it was so right for the business

00:37:23

at the time and I just didn't know it

00:37:24

cuz I weren't acceptance AC accepting of

00:37:28

like changing changing the way we were

00:37:31

working and I didn't understand that you

00:37:32

could go and do this other thing

00:37:34

and produce in a different way than what

00:37:36

we were doing and like full credit to

00:37:39

him he completely changed the whole like

00:37:42

margin of what we were doing um so James

00:37:45

was doing that for like nine months

00:37:47

straight and Mike was doing all these

00:37:49

new graphics that was going to change

00:37:51

the way the brand looked and then I I

00:37:54

came out to LA a few times and Bone

00:37:56

these t-shirts that I really loved and

00:37:57

these cargo pants that I loved and then

00:37:59

we started putting all these three

00:38:00

things together through through all of

00:38:02

us and then I have a guy called Stefan

00:38:04

who was doing all the Website

00:38:06

Maintenance and everything like that and

00:38:07

we changed the way the website looked

00:38:08

and the whole vision of the brand and we

00:38:10

deleted everything off social media and

00:38:12

just like restarted and it just it

00:38:14

started working and we put like 300

00:38:16

t-shirts online and we sold 300 in a

00:38:18

minute and then the next week Mike did

00:38:20

another design and we sold 600 in a

00:38:22

minute and then 900 in a minute and then

00:38:24

it was like [ __ ] we actually do have a

00:38:26

following here we've gone from

00:38:28

doing 10 15 sales through the day to

00:38:32

like a thousand every single Wednesday

00:38:34

2,000 3,000

00:38:36

4,000 and that gave us like the the

00:38:40

liquid and also the confidence to then

00:38:42

go and create more Collections and go

00:38:45

back to becoming a real brand again as

00:38:48

you were saying that made me think about

00:38:50

how so many people aren't successful in

00:38:53

their lives or aren't as successful as

00:38:56

they could possibly be

00:38:58

because they haven't gotten out of their

00:38:59

own way and that was me a million times

00:39:01

over and just like having that open

00:39:05

mindedness and listening to other people

00:39:07

and knowing that it's not you're not

00:39:09

right with everything is such a [ __ ]

00:39:11

huge thing it's difficult when you I

00:39:13

think especially if you're a young CEO

00:39:15

because you're probably already a bit

00:39:17

insecure right yeah 100% yeah um like

00:39:22

you feel like you should know everything

00:39:23

so you're like overcompensating by but

00:39:26

then as well like the business was

00:39:27

growing so much that I would have only

00:39:30

just restricted it if I would have

00:39:31

stayed in that CEO position even though

00:39:33

I was learning a lot and listening a lot

00:39:35

to a lot of things and we had to bring

00:39:37

people in because we were like busting

00:39:39

at the seams didn't have enough staff

00:39:41

and like the revenue was going crazy and

00:39:43

we didn't know what to do with ourselves

00:39:44

we're all running around like headless

00:39:45

chicken there's only like 20 people in

00:39:47

the business and we were doing like 30

00:39:49

35 million revenue and it was like [ __ ]

00:39:52

how what are we going to do we're going

00:39:53

to do 50 million next year but we we

00:39:54

don't know what we're doing just like so

00:39:57

silly but yeah

00:40:00

you I'm going to say from the outside it

00:40:02

looks like you you had it all together

00:40:03

of course it does yeah for the whole 13

00:40:05

years it kind of looks like that um and

00:40:08

it still looks like that now and we

00:40:09

definitely don't have it all together

00:40:11

but we I do have an amazing like

00:40:13

leadership team and everyone in the

00:40:14

business is like so bought into it now

00:40:17

and like now there's like a mission

00:40:18

statement and some fundamentals behind

00:40:21

the business and everyone's everyone's

00:40:23

really on the mission with me and like

00:40:25

they they [ __ ] live for it and love

00:40:26

it and like we die for it you've you've

00:40:29

created a pretty amazing um company

00:40:31

culture you were talking about it there

00:40:33

yeah how have you done that that's it's

00:40:35

not really I'm not going to sit here and

00:40:38

take credit for that um I'll take credit

00:40:41

for like the gym that we have in there

00:40:42

and and the way we like everyone works

00:40:45

hard but also like my the CEO that came

00:40:47

in Spenny just he's all about people

00:40:50

people over a profit every day of the

00:40:52

week whatever it is it's people first so

00:40:55

we have such a good like group of

00:40:58

like the leadership theme he's brought

00:40:59

in and like everyone who's involved with

00:41:01

the business now it's just constant like

00:41:03

transparency and here's where we go

00:41:05

here's what we're doing here's what's

00:41:06

wrong here's what's right we need to

00:41:08

focus more on this we need to do more of

00:41:10

this and just giving them everything

00:41:12

that they they want and like even though

00:41:14

it's yeah you got to work hard you got

00:41:16

to work [ __ ] hard we're still like

00:41:19

we're probably the best place to work

00:41:21

for that I know of self-awareness I amum

00:41:24

I've spoken to a lot of Founders that

00:41:26

have been very very successful

00:41:27

especially out of Europe and one of the

00:41:30

things that they all seem to have in

00:41:32

common is at some point in their Journey

00:41:35

they developed such a high

00:41:36

self-awareness that as we kind of said

00:41:37

they got out of the way of the business

00:41:39

and just focused on the thing that

00:41:40

they're good

00:41:41

at and that's pretty much what it looks

00:41:44

like you're doing now yeah and I hope

00:41:46

that's right and I've seen people do

00:41:48

that and get it wrong but for me I think

00:41:50

it is right I'm not a businessman and

00:41:52

like for me to be the CEO of this

00:41:55

business it's growing rapidly and has

00:41:57

all these people involved with it like

00:41:58

all I would do is stump the growth of it

00:42:01

um so like you said earlier today like

00:42:04

there's people that are so much better

00:42:05

at things than you and if you can bring

00:42:07

them into your business they can they

00:42:10

can get on with that stuff and do 10

00:42:12

times better job than you can and lay

00:42:14

the foundations for it to become 500

00:42:16

million or a billion dollar brand or 10

00:42:19

billion dollar brand and you can focus

00:42:20

on what you're actually good at how did

00:42:22

you get them to come I think like you

00:42:24

said then like company culture like

00:42:27

you see if you see represent on LinkedIn

00:42:29

or something you're going to look at it

00:42:30

and think [ __ ] I want to be in there

00:42:32

these guys and girls are getting after

00:42:34

it like doing gym sessions together at

00:42:36

6:00 a.m. and they're all out and they

00:42:38

just they're just enjoying the workplace

00:42:40

like but that that comes from being

00:42:43

being a successful brand you can't just

00:42:44

do that from the get-go can't just build

00:42:46

a gym with no money right so you've got

00:42:49

to build that level of success and then

00:42:51

you're able to reinvest into the brand

00:42:53

rather than into your stock and and

00:42:55

building the actual size of the company

00:42:59

because this is always the issue that I

00:43:00

hear specifically like young Founders or

00:43:03

early stage entrepreneurs talking about

00:43:04

is okay Steve I get it I know we need

00:43:07

great people but how do I persuade great

00:43:09

people like Spencer it's Spenny right

00:43:11

Paul Spencer yeah Paul Spencer um how do

00:43:13

I get him to come work here right when

00:43:15

he's working at like Puma he was at Puma

00:43:17

wasn't he yeah he was you get how did

00:43:19

you get him to come from Puma to

00:43:21

represent built a relationship with him

00:43:23

over many years James was in contact

00:43:25

with him for 5 years since we first met

00:43:28

and then as the business scaled he saw

00:43:30

what we had like he saw what me and Mike

00:43:33

had together as brothers and he saw what

00:43:35

me Mike James and Steph had as like a

00:43:37

leadership team and he wanted to be

00:43:39

involved with it because he knows that

00:43:41

there's no other options for us it was

00:43:44

like we we're building this there's no

00:43:45

ceiling like what is what is

00:43:48

representing 10 years like what can it

00:43:50

be and he says it every day is like

00:43:51

gives me [ __ ] Goosebumps walking in

00:43:53

here because there's no there's no limit

00:43:55

to it like can do everything if we can

00:43:58

spell sell sportsware we can sell

00:44:00

vintage t-shirts and we can

00:44:03

sell we can sell salt like it's insane

00:44:06

we can do anything it's it's not really

00:44:08

a brand anymore it's like a lifestyle of

00:44:10

all the business decisions that you've

00:44:12

made where does hiring a CEO to run the

00:44:16

business and you stepping out of the way

00:44:18

rank number one really

00:44:21

yeah my life's just so much better now

00:44:24

that he's involved with the business and

00:44:26

there's a lot of way taken off my

00:44:28

shoulders it's not the first time I've

00:44:30

heard this I think Ben Francis would

00:44:32

have said the same yeah I bet you know

00:44:34

in julan at hu said the same and that

00:44:37

putting someone in in that CEO role

00:44:39

where it's both like not enjoyable for

00:44:42

you as a creative but also it's not good

00:44:45

for the business because it's not your

00:44:46

skill set and and that yeah it wasn't

00:44:49

enjoyable for a for a long time and you

00:44:51

do it because you had to do it and if I

00:44:54

spent 6 hours in that role of a CEO to

00:44:56

then come out of my room and be like

00:44:58

Mike let's go and Design This thing you

00:45:00

didn't want to do it there's no energy

00:45:02

that [ __ ] drains your if you're a

00:45:03

creative the business side of the thing

00:45:06

drains your energy it absolutely kills

00:45:09

you even to this day I'll go into a

00:45:11

board meeting and after 15 minutes I'm

00:45:12

just like oh my God I'm I'm done I'm

00:45:16

asleep but I could sit in Mike's room

00:45:18

and design for 12 hours straight with

00:45:20

him how much as a creative and a

00:45:23

creative founder do you have to stay in

00:45:24

touch with the business side of things

00:45:27

though like you spoke about the

00:45:28

boardroom do you still kind of need to

00:45:30

know what's going on I like to yeah okay

00:45:32

I I love to know as much as I can um but

00:45:37

as well I think you should keep things

00:45:39

away from yourself because it will

00:45:41

inflict you with even if it's like

00:45:43

negative things I think especially if

00:45:45

you're so focused on building this next

00:45:48

collection or whatever it is if you're

00:45:49

hearing negative feedback about some

00:45:51

kind of product that's not working or

00:45:52

something in the business is not working

00:45:54

that affects what you're doing there um

00:45:56

so I think trying to divide them two

00:45:58

things is crucial and I did that with

00:46:00

Mike from the GetGo cuz I knew that like

00:46:03

negativity and um like feedback loops on

00:46:07

things that weren't great wasn't good

00:46:10

for him when he's designing so kind of

00:46:13

kept him just like strictly to design

00:46:16

but obviously we'd give him facts and

00:46:17

figures and numbers and stuff like that

00:46:19

but try and keep him out of it as much

00:46:21

as he can what was your hardest

00:46:23

day oh um I remember we got a letter

00:46:27

from a company also called represent in

00:46:30

Europe telling us

00:46:32

that we we were basically

00:46:36

done and yeah that was that was the

00:46:40

worst day in the business yeah what did

00:46:42

the L say just said like that they owned

00:46:45

the trademark in Europe

00:46:49

and we

00:46:51

were they were just going to take us for

00:46:53

everything we had we couldn't carry on

00:46:55

Trading

00:46:58

they wanted all of your money more than

00:47:00

what we

00:47:01

had and that that like that was in that

00:47:04

same period that 2018 to 20 where we

00:47:07

were just like every day we were waiting

00:47:09

for responses and every day it was like

00:47:13

waking up and thinking [ __ ] like is it

00:47:15

all over today is it all over tomorrow

00:47:17

can we do what we want to do is this

00:47:19

even our business anymore do we even own

00:47:23

what we're doing and like there was

00:47:25

there was only really me Mike and James

00:47:27

that knew about this that was going on

00:47:29

cuz I didn't want to put it out to

00:47:30

anyone didn't want anyone in the

00:47:31

business to know like this was happening

00:47:33

or even my family um and it really

00:47:36

[ __ ] like restricted us with

00:47:38

everything we did every decision we made

00:47:41

every garment we

00:47:42

sold um so that that that was that was

00:47:48

included in that really dark period they

00:47:52

presumably owned the trademark that you

00:47:54

were using so you had called yourself

00:47:55

represent

00:47:57

but someone else owned the trademark for

00:47:59

Europe yeah and you didn't realize that

00:48:02

at the time we thought we owned it um

00:48:04

because we had the UK IP and all over

00:48:06

the rest of the world and there was this

00:48:09

dormant we thought it was dormant but

00:48:10

apparently was selling clothing section

00:48:13

25 or whatever section 25 is like the

00:48:16

clothing category of a trademark right

00:48:18

and at first we thought all right we can

00:48:21

we'll we'll be able to figure this out

00:48:22

let's get some lawyers and we'll go into

00:48:24

it in a certain way and approach it like

00:48:26

this and was just constantly like no no

00:48:29

no like they weren't willing to nothing

00:48:33

and that was like that was the devil

00:48:36

that W you up every

00:48:38

night um but I used that as like I guess

00:48:42

again it's that chip on the shoulder

00:48:43

thing I kind of used it as that and I

00:48:46

realized that like we had to get we had

00:48:48

to do so much and make so much of the

00:48:51

brand that we didn't want to give it up

00:48:53

and that when it when the time came to

00:48:55

it and he gave in and he wanted to take

00:48:57

money we had the money to be able to do

00:48:59

it this sort of dark period between 2018

00:49:02

and sort of 2020 was did that cause it

00:49:05

or was that just on top of it that was

00:49:08

like on that was the icing on the cake

00:49:11

right so the business is stagnant and

00:49:12

then you get this letter through someone

00:49:13

wants to take everything you have and we

00:49:15

spent so many months like just sat in

00:49:17

the back office just figuring out what

00:49:20

we're going to recall the brand how

00:49:21

we're going to Rebrand it and like what

00:49:23

it meant if it was not represent anymore

00:49:26

and we wouldn't we couldn't post

00:49:27

anything on social media so it was like

00:49:29

we can't show this guy that the brand

00:49:31

does well or we're making any money

00:49:33

because then he'll want more and he'll

00:49:35

start seeing all these other things and

00:49:37

we just we were so in our own heads

00:49:39

about it and like all the advice from

00:49:41

lawyers was just just always bad

00:49:45

news um but eventually we got him to

00:49:49

come up come up with a figure that he

00:49:50

wanted for it

00:49:52

and I remember it was I think it was

00:49:54

March 2020 we ended up like signing and

00:49:57

getting getting our name back he wanted

00:50:00

Millions

00:50:02

yeah um you said the lawyers were giving

00:50:04

you bad news what were they saying just

00:50:06

like they wouldn't respond for three

00:50:07

months the lawyers no no no not the

00:50:09

lawyers his lawyers okay his lawyers

00:50:11

okay so he and then they respond on the

00:50:12

last day of like this three Monon period

00:50:15

but you'd be in the car going to like

00:50:16

Portugal to find out if this

00:50:18

production's ready and you'd get this

00:50:19

long email and your heart just drop and

00:50:21

he'd be like what's going to get said

00:50:23

and then we' go back to the office and

00:50:26

sit there again and try and rethink of

00:50:27

another name and then respond to him

00:50:30

within a few days and then be another

00:50:31

three months so there was just this like

00:50:34

this dark cloud above our heads all the

00:50:36

time when you say Dark Cloud what does

00:50:39

the Dark Cloud feel

00:50:41

like fly on the wall again yeah just you

00:50:45

not being able to be yourself with

00:50:47

everything you do every decision you

00:50:50

make whether it's buying a [ __ ]

00:50:51

sandwich from the shop it's like that's

00:50:53

not your money to buy that sandwich cuz

00:50:55

someone else owns a name where you're

00:50:56

making that that

00:50:58

money it' like get you like

00:51:01

that did it interfere with your sleep

00:51:05

your mental health everything um but Al

00:51:09

but like I said earlier it also became

00:51:11

this driving force where like i' use it

00:51:14

as a thing where it was like I know this

00:51:18

Probably sounds so stupid but like I

00:51:20

just got started running in 2020 and I

00:51:23

was like I'm going to go out and run 15K

00:51:26

and if I stop that's like him coming for

00:51:30

us you know he's like I have to do it I

00:51:33

have to win at everything we do whether

00:51:34

it's just a run or it's a design selling

00:51:36

or whatever it is like you cannot stop

00:51:39

now can't be easy going through that

00:51:41

with your brother as well because you're

00:51:43

going to both be somewhat protective of

00:51:45

each other I imagine and if there's that

00:51:46

dark cloud hanging over both of you at

00:51:47

the same time it's yeah it ruined both

00:51:51

of us it ruined his the way he designed

00:51:53

and yeah everything and then So

00:51:55

eventually you get a break and this guy

00:51:57

agrees to a

00:51:59

figure and at the time I you know

00:52:01

millions and millions of pounds if

00:52:02

you're making six or seven million in

00:52:04

the business and you're saying it's not

00:52:05

really profitable I'm guessing the money

00:52:06

wasn't in the bank to send this guy

00:52:08

millions of pounds no but the deal went

00:52:09

through in 2020 when we were really like

00:52:12

pushing forward and doing everything we

00:52:14

could to that when that thing happened

00:52:16

we had enough money for it how do you

00:52:18

feel about him this guy that sent you

00:52:20

that ler up until

00:52:22

then just hate just absolute hate

00:52:26

because

00:52:27

we were a bunch of young guys that were

00:52:29

trying to build this business and we had

00:52:31

20 employees at the time that we'd

00:52:33

probably have to lay off and we'd lose

00:52:34

all the money and we'd be in debt for

00:52:36

the rest of our lives or whatever just

00:52:37

because he decided that he wanted to use

00:52:40

that name to sell nothing basically

00:52:42

wasn't selling anything

00:52:45

um so yeah up until that day I was I was

00:52:48

really upset about it

00:52:51

but after it I kind of just realized

00:52:53

that it is what it is and that's how

00:52:55

things go and

00:52:57

and when I look back at it now it really

00:52:59

[ __ ] catapulted the business cuz

00:53:01

that's when we came out of our shell and

00:53:03

that's when we started really like

00:53:05

building this brand into a lifestyle and

00:53:07

not just t-shirts on the floor on an

00:53:10

Instagram page did your parents know

00:53:12

yeah that you were going through that

00:53:14

yeah a little bit how I wouldn't tell

00:53:15

them the full extent but why just cuz I

00:53:18

didn't I don't like putting pressure on

00:53:19

other people um especially when it's not

00:53:22

going to affect their lives as such at

00:53:23

the time um but yeah we go to my mom and

00:53:27

dad's every weekend and like it would

00:53:28

always be a subject that came up has he

00:53:31

replied yet has he responded like have

00:53:32

you heard anything it's just

00:53:35

like yeah it [ __ ] us how how did you

00:53:38

how did you deal with that cuz you're a

00:53:39

young you're a young guy I remember the

00:53:41

first time in business where I

00:53:42

experienced anxiety um I I thought

00:53:45

anxiety was something that happens to

00:53:46

other people yeah and then I remember

00:53:48

the day very clearly where I had to let

00:53:52

the managing director in our New York

00:53:54

office go I had to fire him right and I

00:53:59

was sat in my apartment in Manchester

00:54:02

thinking about that flight tomorrow

00:54:04

where I I'd asked this person to come

00:54:05

and meet me for a

00:54:06

coffee and I was just like riddled with

00:54:09

anxiety for the first time ever I was

00:54:11

like this is this is what people talk

00:54:12

about when they're talking about mental

00:54:13

health this is it it's happening to me I

00:54:17

Invincible but it's it's suddenly

00:54:19

happening happening to me um obviously

00:54:22

as it always goes it was never it wasn't

00:54:24

as bad as I imagined but it's the imag

00:54:26

that imagination is 95% of it isn't it

00:54:29

have you experienced that before um

00:54:33

mental

00:54:34

health I always struggle when people ask

00:54:37

me about this cuz no not really um I've

00:54:39

always been pretty solid on where I want

00:54:41

to go who I want to be what I want to do

00:54:42

and just stuck to a plan um anxiety that

00:54:47

that thing that period yeah that caused

00:54:49

me anxiety but not not to an extent

00:54:51

where it was like crippling mhm um but

00:54:55

like I kind of now I kind of enjoy the

00:54:58

the bits of anxiety I get because you

00:55:00

learn from it right like you going into

00:55:02

that meeting and telling him you're

00:55:03

going to get fired once that's done you

00:55:06

have that relief and then you know next

00:55:07

time you do it this is how it goes so

00:55:09

you lose that 95% of anxiety that

00:55:11

happens before it or you lose a little

00:55:13

bit of it yeah I get really anxious

00:55:16

going on to podcasts like the past few

00:55:19

days I've been really anxious coming on

00:55:20

here um and I've done a hundred of them

00:55:23

before um so you never lose it but

00:55:27

how'd you goope with it just being

00:55:29

prepared as much as you can for whatever

00:55:32

that thing is so whe if that is you

00:55:34

going to fire someone you got to know

00:55:36

the reasons why you're firing them like

00:55:39

where they can go what's going to be

00:55:40

best for them what's going to be best

00:55:41

for you and just going into it like that

00:55:44

um and then there's nothing really that

00:55:46

can happen within that meeting then that

00:55:49

that can go wrong I think and I think

00:55:51

that kind of clears the

00:55:52

anxiety on your on the brands you know

00:55:55

you've gone through a bit of a

00:55:55

transition you said you was the brand

00:55:57

was stagnant at one point and then it

00:55:58

took off again when you made a lot of

00:56:00

sort of operational changes and sort of

00:56:02

changes to the business model but at the

00:56:04

heart of the brand there was always

00:56:05

something special you know to even be at

00:56:08

six million revenue and I remember back

00:56:10

when I first discovered represent and

00:56:12

for anyone that doesn't know it's

00:56:14

basically the only thing I wear so like

00:56:16

if you ever see me out or on stage or

00:56:17

whatever I'm wearing represent head to

00:56:19

toe I mean it's it's I wear this I

00:56:22

usually don't wear this on the podcast

00:56:23

but when I'm not on the podcast it's the

00:56:25

only thing I'm wearing and the the 24/7

00:56:27

pants that you made are the only pants

00:56:30

that I wear everyone knows that like you

00:56:32

know I don't actually have another pair

00:56:33

ofs that's all over um because there's

00:56:36

something there when I discovered the

00:56:37

brand there was always something special

00:56:38

about it and it's hard to explain right

00:56:42

and when you observe the brand it's

00:56:44

clearly turned into a bit of a cult

00:56:46

right a good cult no one's getting

00:56:48

murdered it's a good cult but what is

00:56:50

that thing that the brand always had oh

00:56:53

that's hard that's a hard question it's

00:56:55

really hard I think it's the fact that

00:56:57

it's like two brothers that from

00:56:59

Manchester that don't really belong in

00:57:00

fashion have come up and done this

00:57:02

really cool thing where they're proven

00:57:05

that we don't need to just follow the

00:57:07

rule book and we can do whatever we want

00:57:09

to do and sell whatever we want to sell

00:57:11

and like it's still even though it's a

00:57:13

huge brand now it's still like a small

00:57:15

thing where like the Owners Club for

00:57:17

existence like which is like one range

00:57:20

within it one range within it where like

00:57:22

you see someone else wi an own's Club

00:57:23

hoodie like you see them two guys not at

00:57:25

each other and it's like yeah part of

00:57:26

something like we've kind of built this

00:57:28

community that is it stems from the

00:57:31

people that are in the business but it's

00:57:33

so much bigger and it's on a global

00:57:34

scale but it's still like pretty small

00:57:37

and it's it's like a it's a family

00:57:39

business right it's run by two brothers

00:57:41

and everyone within the business feels

00:57:42

like family and when you buy a piece of

00:57:44

that product we're giving them way more

00:57:46

than what they expect like I my one of

00:57:49

my main things is like quality and I

00:57:52

want the customer to think um I follow

00:57:56

these guys kind of cool I might try a

00:57:57

hoodie and they get way more than they

00:57:59

expect and that's when like they become

00:58:02

part of that cult you're exceeding their

00:58:03

expectations exceeding their

00:58:05

expectations way more than what they

00:58:06

thought it would but for you to exceed

00:58:09

my expectations there must be something

00:58:11

going on in the office yeah that isn't

00:58:14

going on in the other fashion brands

00:58:16

offices yeah and what is that thing

00:58:18

that's happening at represent that's

00:58:19

probably not happening at your

00:58:20

competitive place I think it's my innate

00:58:23

desire to just have just be the best

00:58:27

however we show up whether it's a popup

00:58:28

whether it's a run Club whether it's the

00:58:31

the feel of a garment or the delivery

00:58:33

saying it's going to take three days and

00:58:34

it takes one day I think it's just my

00:58:38

innate desire to just really be the best

00:58:40

at how we show up as a brand

00:58:43

exhausting because because the reason

00:58:45

why people don't do that is because it's

00:58:47

easier to cut the corner right it's

00:58:49

easier to send it 3 days it's easier to

00:58:51

not really care about the quality of

00:58:53

course but like it's so personal to us

00:58:55

and it's all we were and it's all we

00:58:57

obsess over every day so it's got to be

00:58:59

good what do people not see in terms of

00:59:02

the effort that goes into the work

00:59:05

between you and your brother Michael

00:59:07

what is what is it that people don't see

00:59:09

they don't see Mike enough yeah I'm

00:59:12

trying to get him to come out more with

00:59:14

how how he does things and these process

00:59:15

and stuff but you like with him you're

00:59:18

seeing a guy that is in a room designing

00:59:22

all day every day with his Graphics team

00:59:25

and it's not just him it's the full

00:59:27

scale of the business the logistics the

00:59:30

production the Garment TX the guys that

00:59:32

are designing all the the actual

00:59:34

garments and like the content team like

00:59:37

all of them are so bought into it and

00:59:39

everyone we bring up to the office

00:59:41

whether it's a store or another brand or

00:59:44

whatever like they're [ __ ] Blown Away

00:59:47

no one can believe what's going on in

00:59:48

there and it's this ecosystem that's

00:59:50

been built by spy and us as leaders and

00:59:54

and really like bled this Mission into

00:59:56

everyone that's in there that like we're

00:59:58

creating something that's going to be

01:00:01

like like phenomenal and something

01:00:03

that'll last way longer than what we

01:00:04

lost ourselves when you've put so much

01:00:07

of your heart into the designs and then

01:00:10

you go on Instagram and someone's copied

01:00:11

it yeah and it's your brother's design

01:00:14

that they've copied and I see I see

01:00:16

people copying your stuff all the

01:00:18

time how's that it's good it means it

01:00:22

means the Design's good right no that's

01:00:24

not how you felt the first time no at

01:00:26

first you [ __ ] hate it and you think

01:00:28

people are taking food off your table

01:00:30

and in some cases that's right um and if

01:00:33

if it's a brand that's like very similar

01:00:35

to us and they're trying to do the same

01:00:37

they're at the same price points as us

01:00:38

and they're in our market and they're

01:00:40

taking market share then yeah it's like

01:00:43

they shouldn't be doing that and it'll

01:00:45

bite them in the ass when it comes to it

01:00:47

and at the end of the day it's who's in

01:00:49

it for the long run right copying other

01:00:51

people we used to do it when we we

01:00:53

started I'm not going to sit here and

01:00:54

say everything was origin

01:00:56

we've all been there and done that I

01:00:58

don't think I don't think when you're at

01:01:00

a larger scale you do do it but then you

01:01:02

see brands that are huge High luxury

01:01:04

fashion brands go and do it to a small

01:01:06

designer um so I think it's just it's

01:01:08

just what comes with life I'm sure

01:01:10

you'll get it with podcasts it's the

01:01:13

same thing right you just got to laugh

01:01:15

at

01:01:16

it yeah I've thought about how you know

01:01:18

my journey with with people like copying

01:01:20

what you do or whatever has been it's

01:01:21

been on a bit of a journey and it's

01:01:24

difficult cuz it's because especially

01:01:25

when you care so much about something

01:01:26

someone copies it it really hits you in

01:01:28

the heart to some degree it's like

01:01:30

especially if you can like remember

01:01:31

where you came up with that idea and

01:01:32

then but I but you're right it's an

01:01:35

inevitability and it's also um I always

01:01:38

think about how the most important stuff

01:01:40

is actually the part of the iceberg

01:01:42

under the water yeah and even with

01:01:44

design I I try and get this across to my

01:01:46

team that like it's not even the design

01:01:49

really that counts it's the whole brand

01:01:51

they're bu they're not buying into this

01:01:53

word yeah they're not buying into that

01:01:56

they're buying into this essence of like

01:01:57

them becoming part of this club and like

01:01:59

they're getting this Prestige and

01:02:01

getting the workouts and they're all

01:02:02

part of this whole like lifestyle that

01:02:05

we're portraying and doing and living

01:02:06

and becoming the most important stuff

01:02:09

they can't copy no one can copy that

01:02:11

they can copy a logo and they can't copy

01:02:13

like what what you stand for

01:02:15

right so you've gone from being a

01:02:18

business that was making sort of 8

01:02:19

million in 2018 to as we sit here now I

01:02:23

think last year you did about about 100

01:02:25

million dollar yeah which is exceptional

01:02:28

money is now um large in your life you

01:02:33

I'm sure you run the numbers and you go

01:02:35

[ __ ] I'm worth this much money if I sold

01:02:37

it for this [ __ ] try not

01:02:40

to but do you think uh do you think

01:02:42

about how do you think about money now

01:02:45

I'm not going to lie and sit here and

01:02:46

say like oh money's not an issue money's

01:02:48

not a a thing that drives me because it

01:02:50

is and I think it is with everyone and

01:02:52

I'll speak to billionaires and they'll

01:02:54

say on camera

01:02:56

that they're doing it for this and they

01:02:57

doing it for that and then they'll say

01:02:58

off camera like I want to get [ __ ]

01:03:00

Rich course I want to be rich everyone

01:03:01

wants to be rich there's there's no

01:03:03

negativity that comes with having a lot

01:03:05

of money and I think that society and

01:03:09

the way it's perceived now is like not a

01:03:11

good thing that you're making a lot of

01:03:13

money like I want I want represent to be

01:03:15

doing billions I want everyone in the

01:03:17

business to be extremely wealthy I want

01:03:19

the leadership team to be able to have

01:03:22

generational wealth like that that's

01:03:24

first and foremost like I I like I love

01:03:28

that why not but if you had a billion

01:03:31

pounds now would you be any happier I I

01:03:34

don't measure anything on happiness like

01:03:37

I I'm I'm happy to sit in design for 6

01:03:39

hours or I'm happy to go for a run and

01:03:41

like absolutely ruin my legs like that

01:03:44

makes me happy I also like doing hard

01:03:47

things and rewarding myself um and

01:03:50

that's NE that's not really money but

01:03:53

like like I said earlier money never has

01:03:55

a negative impact I don't

01:03:57

think but on that point about giving you

01:03:59

a billion dollars if I give you a

01:04:00

billion dollars and it's not going to

01:04:01

make you any any happier then what's the

01:04:03

point in the the money I think it will

01:04:05

make me happier really yeah course dude

01:04:08

I could my family would be set forever

01:04:11

all my team would be set forever like

01:04:13

that in makes me happy imagine me being

01:04:16

able to turn up to my family and being

01:04:18

like

01:04:19

okay Dad I know you've worked all your

01:04:21

life here's here's this enjoy it what's

01:04:24

the exit strategy per se I don't know

01:04:29

anything else so why would I want to

01:04:30

leave how are you going to get the

01:04:32

billion if you don't leave we'll do it

01:04:34

in

01:04:36

profits um no I don't I don't want a I

01:04:39

don't want a billion dollars in my bank

01:04:41

account like that's not needed

01:04:43

but when you say what's the exit

01:04:46

strategy I'm like when I watched you

01:04:48

leave your business I was always

01:04:50

thinking like you already had the the

01:04:53

podcast lined up and you're already

01:04:54

ready to move into this thing anyway so

01:04:56

it made sense for you I don't have that

01:04:59

and I also don't want that like I love

01:05:01

represent I wake up and it's represent

01:05:03

everything everything I talk to about

01:05:05

everyone is the brand everything I do is

01:05:07

the brand that what like even bringing

01:05:09

my fitness into this thing is my brand

01:05:11

and like I've been able to then build

01:05:13

247 into this brand which is actually

01:05:15

just like more of a passion project for

01:05:17

me than um than building a business and

01:05:21

even though like all the athletes that

01:05:23

are involved like I'm able to suck so

01:05:26

much like knowledge and worth out of

01:05:28

these people personally for myself

01:05:30

through the brand so me then moving into

01:05:33

something else or just selling the

01:05:35

business doesn't make sense when your

01:05:38

identity and your profession become so

01:05:42

intrinsically

01:05:44

linked there's a cost to that right

01:05:47

because it must feel you know you talked

01:05:49

about back back backs beinging against

01:05:50

the wall

01:05:53

um God if the brand were to go down down

01:05:56

if the revenue started to Plum it and it

01:05:57

went out of Vogue or whatever they call

01:05:59

it like it just was no not popular

01:06:01

anymore that's linked to your like

01:06:03

self-esteem and you're like self-worth

01:06:04

and your

01:06:06

identity 100% and look there is days

01:06:09

where it doesn't do well there is still

01:06:11

days now where we'll launch products and

01:06:13

we'll have a nightmare with it how do

01:06:15

that feel honestly it [ __ ] with you

01:06:17

[ __ ] with your confidence um but it

01:06:19

also gives you a realization that you're

01:06:22

not super human and you can't do

01:06:23

everything and not everything your touch

01:06:24

turns to gold and then you got to go

01:06:26

back to the drawing board and do it

01:06:27

again what does that look like so that

01:06:29

you think about the last time it

01:06:31

happened how did it feel and how long

01:06:33

did that feeling last it lasts a few

01:06:35

days and I'll speak to Spenny about it a

01:06:38

lot over them few days and he'll

01:06:40

reassure that something else is going to

01:06:42

take that feeling away from it and it

01:06:43

usually does and as well like it it's

01:06:48

not all about small failures along the

01:06:51

way and there's so many exciting things

01:06:52

that when something small trips you up a

01:06:54

little bit you've got to realize like no

01:06:56

this is for the long term like the

01:06:57

future is this is in 10 years let's look

01:06:59

back at this as like a a learning curve

01:07:03

amongst all of this you've still got to

01:07:05

figure out how to have a life like a

01:07:07

personal life because regardless of how

01:07:09

intrinsically connected you are to the

01:07:11

brand represent you're still going to

01:07:13

need to have a life you're still going

01:07:14

to need to be a George in there

01:07:15

somewhere yeah and I never really did

01:07:17

for a long time past 10 years I've not

01:07:20

really had a

01:07:22

life not nothing outside of represent

01:07:24

but I've built repres into my life in

01:07:27

the moment I think about you know times

01:07:30

in my career where I was absolutely all

01:07:33

in on something to the point that I was

01:07:34

like seven days a week in this [ __ ]

01:07:35

office and even the weekends when

01:07:37

there's nothing to do I'm just in there

01:07:38

cuz I got new mates dude so that's when

01:07:40

I realized so them Sundays where you'd

01:07:42

be sat at home on your own no one would

01:07:45

be messaging you you can't do anything

01:07:47

with people in the business because it's

01:07:48

their time off with the families that's

01:07:51

when I realized like [ __ ] I'm like I'm

01:07:54

probably too bought into this were you

01:07:59

lonely alone but never lonely never I

01:08:03

never got to the point

01:08:04

where I felt lonely may maybe a little

01:08:08

bit but like I would I would distract

01:08:10

myself with going working out for five

01:08:12

hours you

01:08:14

know or just putting my headphones in

01:08:16

and listening to a book and just just

01:08:18

going and coming back and then the

01:08:20

Sunday's done anyway Sundays were my

01:08:22

worst days because I didn't have anyone

01:08:24

to do anything with

01:08:27

like I'd go I'd go and train at a local

01:08:29

gym where there's a big Community there

01:08:30

for the from 6:00 a.m. till 9:00 a.m.

01:08:33

and I come home I just sit there and

01:08:34

think when's it Monday isn't that funny

01:08:38

text my mom like what you up to and she

01:08:39

be like oh we're actually up in Scotland

01:08:41

doing this trip I be like [ __ ] I can't

01:08:42

even go and see my

01:08:44

mom so yeah I guess I guess there is a

01:08:47

little bit of loneliness in there yeah I

01:08:50

was lonely but I didn't know it at the

01:08:51

time yeah I only know it in hindsight

01:08:53

cuz I look back at the way I was living

01:08:55

and right yeah I was filling the Gap the

01:09:00

Sunday Saturday Summer evenings holidays

01:09:03

even Christmases like cuz I was in

01:09:05

Manchester my family are in the

01:09:06

southwest I was filling it with work

01:09:08

like often just like pointless work

01:09:11

absolutely unneeded stuff a lot of the

01:09:13

time it's it's great and you can go out

01:09:14

and you can spend a few hours on your

01:09:16

own and write a load of things down that

01:09:17

you need to do that next week or but you

01:09:19

need a team to do

01:09:21

anything like I can't get anything done

01:09:25

without the team and that's that's one

01:09:28

thing I would realize every weekend that

01:09:30

like I'm wasting my time pretending to

01:09:33

work it's exactly what I was

01:09:36

doing relationships romantic

01:09:39

relationships let's start with

01:09:41

non-romantic relationships in fact you

01:09:43

talk about having to shed people in

01:09:46

terms of like negative influences in

01:09:49

order to change your

01:09:50

life people ask me about this all the

01:09:52

time which is yeah you know how

01:09:54

important is the environment on personal

01:09:57

and professional success I think it's

01:09:59

everything I think your ecosystem that

01:10:01

you build around you is everything

01:10:03

whether that's the distance it takes you

01:10:05

to get to the gym or the people you

01:10:08

follow on social media if you're

01:10:10

following Joe from school that's out

01:10:12

every night drinking and you're watching

01:10:14

them stories even if it's 20 seconds of

01:10:15

your day you're wasting your time

01:10:18

watching them stories and you're also

01:10:19

looking at things that are just

01:10:22

absolutely pointless to your life so why

01:10:24

don't you go and follow someone who's

01:10:25

done what you want to do or he's doing

01:10:27

what you want to do or who actually

01:10:28

inspires you and just clear out all the

01:10:30

[ __ ] and you you're going to be so

01:10:33

much more in your in the right head

01:10:35

space if you do something like

01:10:37

that did you do that did you clear out

01:10:40

yeah did it a lot of

01:10:43

times got a lot of bad messages from

01:10:45

doing it really

01:10:48

Jo okay yeah why did you unfollow me do

01:10:51

you explain it to him um yeah just tell

01:10:54

them how it is

01:10:55

just say look man I don't want to watch

01:10:57

you sit anymore so romantic

01:11:00

relationships then how has that been

01:11:02

because it it must must be pretty tricky

01:11:04

with the level of obsession that you

01:11:06

have to maintain a healthy happy

01:11:09

romantic relationship nonexistent didn't

01:11:12

didn't entertain it for so many years

01:11:14

tried it

01:11:15

once maybe like when I was 25 26 and

01:11:19

just didn't work Why didn't it work I

01:11:22

was obsessed with work and I was also

01:11:24

like

01:11:26

I didn't know who I was and what I

01:11:28

wanted to be and it was before that era

01:11:30

before that time of mine where I changed

01:11:33

so it just I didn't like who I was and

01:11:36

obviously that doesn't work when you're

01:11:37

in a relationship you got to you got to

01:11:39

love yourself first right MH um and then

01:11:43

after that I just kind of just said no

01:11:45

I'm not doing it and didn't up until

01:11:48

recently really didn't entertain it at

01:11:50

all for so many years you got a

01:11:52

girlfriend have I no not not really kind

01:11:55

of would she answer this question the

01:11:57

same way she got a boyfriend she's got a

01:12:02

boyfriend no are you a little bit um are

01:12:05

you you're an avoidant aren't you do you

01:12:07

know the the attachment Styles have you

01:12:08

heard about the attachment Styles no

01:12:09

what's that three attachment Styles

01:12:10

you've got the secures they're the ones

01:12:12

that just have the perfect relationships

01:12:13

right you know they're like no problems

01:12:15

they're like you know and then you've

01:12:16

got the anxious ones who clingy like

01:12:19

need like they need like need attention

01:12:21

yeah exactly and then you've got the

01:12:22

avoidant who kind of run right strike me

01:12:25

as an avoidant um I don't know what I am

01:12:29

I don't I I really don't know I'm

01:12:31

definitely not an attachment one no um

01:12:34

and I just always thought it would

01:12:37

be a pressure on myself to then and I

01:12:40

didn't want to let someone else down

01:12:41

because of what I was doing with work

01:12:43

and I don't want to have to explain to

01:12:45

someone like this is my business this is

01:12:47

my life I'm doing this all the time when

01:12:49

they want to see you and they want they

01:12:50

want your attention and stuff but now

01:12:52

like hiring spany and having more time

01:12:54

and actually coming moving out here I've

01:12:56

got time now like my day is done way

01:12:59

before what it was at home I would work

01:13:01

from or i' train and then I would work

01:13:03

from I'd be in the office at half 5 in

01:13:05

the morning I'd leave at 7:00 p.m. and

01:13:07

I'd go to bed so there was no time but

01:13:10

now I can wake up early get all the

01:13:12

stuff done with the guys at home work

01:13:14

with the guys over here building out

01:13:16

representing LA and then I can be done

01:13:18

by like 2 3 p p.m. a lot of days so I

01:13:21

have then time to like I guess date

01:13:24

goals and

01:13:26

things like that and how's that going

01:13:28

hate it really no not I hate it I guess

01:13:31

guess you do hate it because I was I

01:13:33

have this [ __ ] feeling

01:13:35

where I'm not fulfilling what I should

01:13:38

be doing and I'm kind of giving myself a

01:13:41

disservice if I'm out doing something

01:13:44

else and I think a lot of entrepreneurs

01:13:46

and people who run businesses get that

01:13:49

where like if you're not fully into the

01:13:50

business like with every minute of your

01:13:52

time you feel like you're not doing the

01:13:53

right thing and I'm I'm starting to try

01:13:56

and get out like a guilt feelings yes

01:13:59

very guilty yeah and that actually

01:14:02

caused me a little bit of what we think

01:14:04

is anxiety I don't know if it is anxiety

01:14:06

but it really yeah yeah I would wake up

01:14:09

the next day and be like [ __ ] I've like

01:14:11

spend four hours with this person that

01:14:13

I'm not interested in seeing that's I've

01:14:16

wasted four hours where I could have

01:14:17

been working could have been building

01:14:18

the brand could have been doing other

01:14:19

things sounds like a lot when I say a

01:14:22

lot I mean like a lot of a weight to

01:14:23

carry yeah like to not be able to go on

01:14:26

a date with someone for four hours

01:14:27

without waking up the next day feeling

01:14:29

anxious about how you spent your time it

01:14:32

feels like your passions become a bit of

01:14:34

a prison yeah a self-inflicted prison

01:14:37

but I love it and and it's a privilege

01:14:39

to have it but I'm I'm starting learning

01:14:42

like I said I'm kind of got a girlfriend

01:14:44

right now um kind of got a girlfriend

01:14:47

you're in so much trouble you have no

01:14:49

idea that's

01:14:52

fine she's oh George is on a podcast I

01:14:55

have listen to this she's going to click

01:14:56

it we'll do a chapter on YouTube which

01:14:59

is called George's girlfriend we'll put

01:15:00

it in the trailer you're going to be

01:15:03

some serious trouble absolutely fine

01:15:05

Valentine's day yesterday and you're

01:15:06

throwing under the

01:15:09

bus interesting but it does it sounds it

01:15:12

sounds like a little bit of a prison

01:15:14

yeah you know um not being able to take

01:15:18

your foot off the pedal at all without

01:15:19

feeling anxious MH are you happy yeah

01:15:24

and what does that mean that means I I

01:15:26

wake up I'm [ __ ] thankful for what

01:15:28

I've got and what I've built and who I'm

01:15:30

around and like my brother and my family

01:15:32

and like I enjoy being able to just do

01:15:35

what I want to do and that is the work I

01:15:37

guess most of the time you know when

01:15:39

people talk about work life balance M

01:15:41

what's your honest opinion of that

01:15:43

[ __ ] if you actually want to build

01:15:45

something that's going to stand the test

01:15:47

of time and make you very successful and

01:15:50

Rich and happy and bring other people

01:15:52

with you it's going to take everything I

01:15:55

fully believe that I don't think you can

01:15:57

half ass it I don't think it can be a

01:15:58

side project and I don't think it can be

01:16:00

something that's just 3 hours a day I

01:16:03

think you've got to go fully into it to

01:16:05

become like high level achiever like

01:16:08

actually a

01:16:10

winner what are you willing to sacrifice

01:16:12

for that everything whatever it takes

01:16:16

why not I'm already into it now so I've

01:16:18

got to got to go fall on look Kobe

01:16:21

Bryant wasn't doing three throws at

01:16:22

[ __ ] 3:00 a.m. for no reason you got

01:16:25

you got to be the best you got to do

01:16:27

everything right I always talk about the

01:16:29

cost that comes with that and the

01:16:30

sacrifice are you willing to sacrifice

01:16:33

you not having a family yourself for the

01:16:35

time being yeah maybe later on in life

01:16:37

when it when it

01:16:39

becomes something that I can step aside

01:16:41

from even more then yeah you're going to

01:16:44

want to step aside from it because

01:16:46

you're getting anxiety doing 4our dates

01:16:47

how you but I'm learning I'm learning

01:16:49

I'm starting to do it like I said yeah

01:16:51

you've seen progress in that definitely

01:16:54

yeah I think it's just about building

01:16:56

that muscle of understanding you can do

01:16:58

other things and realizing it's not

01:17:00

going to come crashing down if you take

01:17:02

your foot off the break for a second but

01:17:05

still knowing that you're giving it your

01:17:06

all when you are in

01:17:08

it is there a point where I always think

01:17:12

about bbery as an example the bbery

01:17:14

story of how they kind of went out of

01:17:16

fashion because they became too popular

01:17:19

what I'm trying to say is like bbery was

01:17:22

aspirational so lots of people start

01:17:24

wearing in it some less aspirational

01:17:27

people start wearing it people start

01:17:29

knocking it off and selling it for super

01:17:30

cheap in markets then eventually it's no

01:17:33

longer aspirational right because

01:17:35

because of because it got so popular

01:17:37

that it becomes uncool is do you worry

01:17:40

about that as a risk factor for

01:17:41

represent so that's like a life cycle

01:17:43

right and that comes every couple years

01:17:47

or every seven years whatever they may

01:17:48

be in the industry but there's always

01:17:51

different markets to push and pull on

01:17:53

also like represent is so small in terms

01:17:55

of size compared to burbury at the

01:17:58

moment we have a very core customer base

01:18:00

where we kind of can identify them and

01:18:02

we know where they are and what they're

01:18:04

doing and until that goes mainstream

01:18:07

which I think usually happens probably

01:18:08

at like 250 300 million

01:18:11

Revenue um I don't it's not a worry as

01:18:14

such at the moment I used to worry about

01:18:15

a lot but like when Spenny came in he

01:18:17

was handling a $500 million business

01:18:19

he's like we're barely touching the

01:18:20

sides 20% of our revenues in the US

01:18:23

that's only $20 million they could sell

01:18:25

$20 million out of LA and not see the

01:18:27

product for the next six months you

01:18:29

wouldn't even see someone wearing it so

01:18:33

at this point no but it it is something

01:18:35

that we will always think about and

01:18:37

always you've always got to limit your

01:18:39

distribution and make sure you're

01:18:40

selling it in the right places and look

01:18:42

we are still like a luxury brand we

01:18:44

we're in the best stores in the world

01:18:45

like it's not like you can walk into a

01:18:47

Pon and pick us up so it's it's still

01:18:50

not a mainstream brand and it's

01:18:51

expensive I was wondering if it if

01:18:53

that's less of a threat in on the 247

01:18:57

side of things where it's more about

01:18:59

like utility and less about like fashion

01:19:02

because you know everyone wears Nike

01:19:04

yeah and no one's like oh my God I'm not

01:19:06

wearing Nike because they're wear it you

01:19:07

know yeah biggest Sports we brand in the

01:19:09

world and how are they able to tier a

01:19:11

Travis Scott or a virgila blow Jordan

01:19:14

one that's going for $5,000 but they're

01:19:16

still selling tracksuits at $20 and you

01:19:18

can still see everyone in Gold's Gym to

01:19:21

everyone in [ __ ] Equinox wearing it

01:19:23

so there's there's just te to everything

01:19:25

right there's a trickle down system with

01:19:28

everything I wonder if that's is that

01:19:30

because it's like more of your utility

01:19:32

product than a fashion product I think

01:19:34

so with Nike yeah definitely um because

01:19:37

it's not really like a fashion brand

01:19:38

that's able to sell like a $20 item and

01:19:41

then like a Ralph Lauren oh really do

01:19:43

they so cheap and expensive stuff well

01:19:45

if you look at Ralph Lauren most like it

01:19:48

looks amazing from the outside and they

01:19:50

have all these beautiful stores in like

01:19:52

the best the best spots in London and

01:19:55

New York and la and most of their

01:19:57

revenues done through Outlet at $20

01:20:00

polos or $15 polos 60% of their sales is

01:20:03

a polo top which I'm not I'm not exactly

01:20:06

sure on but that's what I hear so

01:20:09

there's ways you

01:20:11

can I guess smoke and mirror it disguise

01:20:13

things and do other things but for us

01:20:16

like we we're pretty solid on where we

01:20:18

want to be in terms of the marketplace

01:20:19

and the price points and we'll grow that

01:20:22

way rather than having to teer things

01:20:25

to an extent what are the most important

01:20:28

because I think most people will be

01:20:29

listening to this conversation in

01:20:31

essence because they want to know how

01:20:32

you've done what you've done you know

01:20:35

they want to know like the transferable

01:20:38

principles behind how it's possible

01:20:41

to scale a very successful business that

01:20:45

also is unique because it's quite a cult

01:20:47

business you've got like an incredibly

01:20:49

cultish brand you know you do like run

01:20:51

clubs and almost a thousand people will

01:20:52

show up on the street corner or you you

01:20:54

drop something and you sell thousands in

01:20:56

minutes yeah um what are those

01:20:59

principles that you would maybe say to a

01:21:01

18yearold George or to that kid in your

01:21:03

DMs that's asking for the the

01:21:06

principles principles that only you

01:21:07

could have learned in hindsight I think

01:21:09

it's about creating the DNA of what the

01:21:12

brand is and sticking to that not

01:21:15

vearing off in different directions and

01:21:17

changing everything up every so often

01:21:19

based on Trends so I think it's about

01:21:20

holding a DNA where that's through thick

01:21:22

and thin so whether it's not right for

01:21:26

that time or it is right for that time

01:21:27

there'll always be life cycles in

01:21:28

fashion and things will go out and in

01:21:30

fashion but if you can kind of cultivate

01:21:32

the look that you want that's that's

01:21:35

first and foremost what it is like if

01:21:37

you look at 247 and represent 247 looks

01:21:40

like represent but it's active we it's

01:21:42

not like it's a whole different thing

01:21:44

that looks like Lululemon like it still

01:21:46

looks like represent so I think making

01:21:48

sure the DNA in the brand is very like

01:21:52

visible where does the DNA come from

01:21:54

just personal preference what we like to

01:21:57

wear what I what I feel like I look good

01:21:59

in what Mike feels like he looks good in

01:22:00

what the team love and just building

01:22:02

that over time step by step just

01:22:05

creating products that we feel like is

01:22:07

either missing or we just want for

01:22:09

ourselves to

01:22:11

wear and what would you say about hard

01:22:13

work as a principal I think it's

01:22:16

everything I really do think it's

01:22:18

everything I meet a lot of people

01:22:19

especially out here that have their

01:22:20

little hands in different businesses

01:22:23

lots of different pies but but don't

01:22:25

work hard at any of them and none of

01:22:26

them really ever succeed or they only

01:22:28

own 1% when you find out they've sold a

01:22:31

business um so I think it's all about

01:22:34

just

01:22:35

like going all in on something that you

01:22:38

own I think it's hard if you were just a

01:22:40

small minority shareholder in something

01:22:43

like that then is not really your

01:22:45

passion it's someone else's or it's a

01:22:47

big group of

01:22:48

peoples but when people think about hard

01:22:51

work they you know and people advise

01:22:53

someone and say you have to work hard if

01:22:55

you want to be successful people say

01:22:56

that's toxic yeah don't

01:23:00

care what what's

01:23:02

toxic that word that word is just makes

01:23:05

no sense you're going to encourage

01:23:07

people to be burnt out yeah I think you

01:23:09

can come out the other side of burnt out

01:23:13

like the more you do right the more you

01:23:15

can do so if you're working hard at

01:23:18

something and you're starting to feel

01:23:19

like it's getting a bit too much the

01:23:21

pressure is a bit too much you carry on

01:23:23

doing it you're going to come out of it

01:23:24

it's not like it it's not like you're

01:23:26

just going to end nothing ends you just

01:23:29

figure out different ways to actually

01:23:30

make it successful or you'll something

01:23:32

will work and you'll be like oh [ __ ]

01:23:34

then your energy goes back up and you

01:23:35

start going down there and and it works

01:23:38

I don't

01:23:39

think I don't know I think there's a lot

01:23:41

of negativity around working hard and I

01:23:43

don't like that there's there's going to

01:23:46

be a kid listening right now that's like

01:23:47

18 16 and they just can't find the

01:23:51

motivation whatever that means they

01:23:54

can't find the motivation to get up and

01:23:55

go to the gym they've got some idea but

01:23:57

it's still on the sofa that they had it

01:23:58

on um like what what what do you say to

01:24:02

that young man or

01:24:05

woman is the first thing to get the the

01:24:09

wheels in motion [ __ ]

01:24:12

motivation I don't have motivation a lot

01:24:14

of time it's actually more about

01:24:15

discipline it's about just getting it

01:24:17

done get up and get it done like with

01:24:19

anything with work with working out with

01:24:21

creating a product with building a brand

01:24:23

with relationships whatever it's

01:24:25

discipline over motivation motivation is

01:24:27

a small thing that can last 2 minutes or

01:24:29

an hour motivation can come from

01:24:32

listening to a a song on your

01:24:35

iPod if you got discipline you're

01:24:37

willing to do it every single day of

01:24:38

your life and knowing that it's going to

01:24:41

take so long to do it you just get up

01:24:42

and do it you don't even think about

01:24:45

motivation and and what is and what is

01:24:47

discipline then discipline

01:24:51

is an instruction manual like what is

01:24:53

discipline to you yeah I guess it is an

01:24:55

instruction manual I guess it's a list

01:24:57

of things that you must do for yourself

01:25:01

to to become what you want to be

01:25:05

and it's I guess it's a deciding factor

01:25:08

on whether you're going to do something

01:25:09

or not and it goes back to what you said

01:25:11

about like you drew a picture of

01:25:13

yourself of what you wanted to look like

01:25:14

but you also wrote out like a set of

01:25:16

principles or values that you wanted to

01:25:17

embody yeah and then you're living your

01:25:20

life by that as opposed to how you feel

01:25:23

every day yeah yeah when you put it that

01:25:27

way that that's what it is and

01:25:30

eventually it becomes part of them it

01:25:32

becomes a muscle right and you grow that

01:25:34

muscle and you constantly like breaking

01:25:37

it down and regrowing it and them

01:25:39

principles just become your life you

01:25:42

know they say like habits what is it

01:25:44

thoughts become habits and then habits

01:25:48

become principles and that becomes you

01:25:50

as a

01:25:51

person a lot of people just don't think

01:25:53

they're moldable goes back to what we

01:25:54

were saying earlier about like we just

01:25:55

don't think that we can change ourselves

01:25:57

yeah but you your evidence of that

01:25:59

really remarkable evidence of

01:26:01

that yeah and there's a lot of people

01:26:04

there are there's so many inspiring

01:26:05

stories out there on social media and in

01:26:07

books and podcasts and stuff that all

01:26:10

these people that have completely

01:26:11

changed their lives it just takes a lot

01:26:12

of time and a lot of effort are you

01:26:16

confident I'm I'm not going to lie I

01:26:18

still have like doubts about things a

01:26:20

lot of the time especially in business

01:26:22

but with myself yeah I'm I'm conf

01:26:25

what do you have doubts about in

01:26:26

business just like you said before maybe

01:26:29

one day the the revenue stops maybe one

01:26:31

day it gets too popular maybe one day

01:26:33

something doesn't work

01:26:35

out maybe one day a competitor comes up

01:26:38

at the side of you and starts taking

01:26:39

everything from you the key to growing a

01:26:41

business is making sure that it's

01:26:43

scalable and this comes with integrating

01:26:45

into the right platforms early in the

01:26:47

game to support your growth a platform

01:26:49

that's helped me and my team to do this

01:26:51

is Shopify who I'm sure you know by now

01:26:53

because they do sponsor this podcast

01:26:55

Shopify is a Commerce platform

01:26:56

revolutionizing millions of businesses

01:26:58

worldwide we recently launched our

01:27:01

second version of the derio conversation

01:27:03

cards on Shopify which would not have

01:27:05

been possible without Shopify when I

01:27:08

started podcasting an online store was

01:27:10

the furthest thing from my mind but now

01:27:12

thanks to how simple it is to use the

01:27:14

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01:27:16

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01:27:28

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01:27:35

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01:27:38

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01:27:41

What if Michael turned around and said

01:27:43

you know what I'm done he just said I

01:27:45

just can't do this anymore I I'm going

01:27:47

to just you know I'm done um i' probably

01:27:51

cry really yeah definitely um and I just

01:27:54

try and figure out why what it is and

01:27:58

then try and get him back in he said no

01:28:00

I'm done said and just that was it

01:28:02

forever it had suck it would suck a lot

01:28:07

um because I've been since school we've

01:28:09

been together doing this forever so for

01:28:12

him then not to be

01:28:14

there it'

01:28:17

be he'd be pretty shitty because like

01:28:19

who are you doing it for then like I'd

01:28:22

[ __ ] die for Mike do you know what I

01:28:25

mean like if if someone had if someone

01:28:27

said I'm going to I've got to kick you

01:28:29

out of the

01:28:30

business but Mike stays I'd go like this

01:28:34

this isn't really for me I guess it's

01:28:36

for

01:28:38

him and like it's kind of at that point

01:28:41

where that can't

01:28:42

happen he enjoys it too much we love

01:28:45

doing this so it's interesting that

01:28:47

thought experiment though kind of

01:28:48

illuminates much of the reason why

01:28:51

you're doing it in the first place

01:28:53

because the first thing you said was who

01:28:54

am I doing it for then

01:28:56

yeah but if I had asked you earlier who

01:28:58

you're doing this for you would I don't

01:28:59

know if you would have said I'm doing it

01:29:01

for Mike no I am I'm doing it for Mike

01:29:03

I'm doing it for the team I'm doing it

01:29:04

for my family definitely but if the team

01:29:07

if the team leaves you're still going to

01:29:08

crack on yeah it's just a new team but

01:29:11

if Mike leaves if Mike if Mike leaves I

01:29:14

don't know if I carry on that's so

01:29:16

difficult to

01:29:18

answer I had a business partner and the

01:29:20

reason I asked that question is I

01:29:21

thought the same I thought one day I

01:29:24

played out my scenario that they quit

01:29:25

and I remember thinking to myself the

01:29:26

exact same thing who am I doing this for

01:29:28

then like we started this together so

01:29:31

the mission is actually me and you

01:29:32

getting to the finish line and you get

01:29:34

excited when they get excited or like if

01:29:37

if Mike sends me a design that he's in

01:29:40

love with and I'm like [ __ ] hell yeah

01:29:41

this is insane and you just have that

01:29:43

energy between you if that wasn't there

01:29:45

anymore it yeah it would suck how

01:29:49

important do you think having a

01:29:50

co-founder is I think massively I know

01:29:53

earlier when you said you get lonely

01:29:55

like I think that is a major Block in

01:29:57

loneliness cuz he is always there um and

01:30:00

I

01:30:01

have like I I always have him to lean

01:30:05

into and I would never put pressure and

01:30:07

stress on him in a personal way but I

01:30:11

know he's there if that happened

01:30:14

um so I think it's it's a massive thing

01:30:17

but who you going to business with is

01:30:19

another massive thing and like you've

01:30:20

got to be completely different to each

01:30:22

other and even though we look the same

01:30:24

and we seem the same like we are very

01:30:25

different people what have you learned

01:30:28

from the bad people that you've hired

01:30:31

the ones that didn't

01:30:32

work in terms of when I say that I

01:30:35

mean what have you learn is a bad

01:30:38

quality in someone to work with to build

01:30:41

a business with to

01:30:42

employee um stuck in old ways and not

01:30:46

being open-minded to change I think a

01:30:48

lot of people are very restrictive when

01:30:51

especially if you're bringing someone

01:30:52

higher up from them then some people

01:30:55

will always like backfire against that

01:30:57

and that's a bad quality and get it's a

01:31:00

human nature and I understand it and you

01:31:02

can always try and like change the way

01:31:05

they think about things but if they're

01:31:06

not willing to accept that change

01:31:09

especially when you're in a growing

01:31:10

company like there's some people and

01:31:12

Spenny always tells me this there's some

01:31:13

people that will take you to 50 mil and

01:31:15

there's some people that'll take you to

01:31:16

250 mil and there's some people take you

01:31:18

to a billion and it won't be the same

01:31:19

people and you've just got to accept

01:31:21

that and you got to do everything you

01:31:22

can for them people at that that time

01:31:25

however however far they go with the

01:31:26

brand I I actually had a conversation

01:31:29

with a Founder the other day whose

01:31:30

business I've just invested in and it's

01:31:33

the exact same conversation that nobody

01:31:34

seems to talk about because in both your

01:31:36

case and mine we both did the same thing

01:31:38

we hired a bunch of young people yeah

01:31:41

that that were probably the ones that

01:31:43

were willing to come and work for us

01:31:45

that were also um the ones we could

01:31:47

maybe manage yeah and then the business

01:31:50

grows and the problem you have is the

01:31:53

next set of talent you need um to get

01:31:56

you up to the next rung in this in on

01:31:58

the

01:31:59

ladder they need to come in above the

01:32:02

people that were there from the

01:32:03

beginning yeah and the originals don't

01:32:07

love that MH because that kind of blocks

01:32:09

their progression just that's what they

01:32:11

think that's what they think but no it's

01:32:13

not true is it because they can learn

01:32:15

from them things and then they can step

01:32:16

up it just takes more time or they

01:32:19

they'll get more knowledge out of it if

01:32:20

that person does come in but ego's

01:32:23

getting the way

01:32:24

yeah ego get in the way and like I said

01:32:26

some people are they're not openminded

01:32:28

to that and they also very people get

01:32:30

comfortable they get comfortable in that

01:32:32

position that they're in and they don't

01:32:33

want anyone to report into and they

01:32:35

don't want to do this and do that but

01:32:38

that's life

01:32:40

right what is um what's next for

01:32:43

you this year yeah start of the Year

01:32:46

isn't it I guess we're building out

01:32:49

women's wear in the brand we are opening

01:32:51

three stores this year which will be our

01:32:53

first stores we've not done a store yet

01:32:56

um and it's something that we've wanted

01:32:57

to do for so many years but just finding

01:32:59

the right places and being in the right

01:33:00

space for it why why stores because

01:33:04

people think that's going against the

01:33:05

way that the world's going everything's

01:33:06

getting more digital course yeah and

01:33:08

that's what that's I think that's a

01:33:10

major advantage like same thing happened

01:33:12

in Co everyone pulled away from their

01:33:14

Productions and stopped selling garments

01:33:17

for a while whereas we were like okay we

01:33:19

will take everyone's production space

01:33:21

and we'll start selling online and then

01:33:23

we made huge

01:33:24

relationships with factories that we

01:33:26

usually couldn't get in and now we're

01:33:27

like the best in them factories and

01:33:28

doing everything the right way with them

01:33:30

because we supported them during them

01:33:32

times but for the for the store aspect

01:33:34

it's like we have these communities all

01:33:37

over the globe where people want to be a

01:33:39

part of the brand and the showing up to

01:33:40

run clubs and we'll go and do one in

01:33:41

Dubai or we'll do one in La like I want

01:33:43

somewhere for them guys to be able to

01:33:45

come into the brand them guys and girls

01:33:46

to come into the brand and be able to

01:33:48

smell it and feel it and touch it and

01:33:50

have it way more professional than than

01:33:53

just walking into a store and seeing it

01:33:54

on a rail or see it on a shoe shelf so

01:33:57

it's about creating an area where the

01:34:01

community can come in and feel more of

01:34:03

the brand and who we are and what we do

01:34:06

and then hopefully roll that out

01:34:07

globally and then 247 has a lot of focus

01:34:12

this year usually it's just like a

01:34:13

couple people in the building that are

01:34:15

doing it and now we've got a full team

01:34:17

working on that we're trying to expand

01:34:19

that hopefully I'd like to open some

01:34:20

gyms with it um the concept for that is

01:34:23

is maybe next year but not this year and

01:34:26

then I'm building another brand called

01:34:27

Cadence um which is an electrolyte drink

01:34:31

high sodium first ready to drink sodium

01:34:35

in a can um in the market and that's

01:34:38

something that I've been working on for

01:34:40

the past year and a half with a guy

01:34:41

called Ross out here and that that's

01:34:45

because going back to

01:34:47

201920 when I started getting into

01:34:49

fitness and lifestyle and health like

01:34:51

electrolytes just became something that

01:34:54

I was consistently taking and I've not

01:34:57

been sick one day since then and I've

01:34:59

never had my energy levels drop and I've

01:35:02

never had bad sleep and not I don't get

01:35:05

headaches anymore and it just seems like

01:35:07

this the salt that's in there is what is

01:35:11

causing like this constant stream of

01:35:13

energy and it's supporting my workouts

01:35:16

and I love flavored drinks so I thought

01:35:18

why can't I make my own version of that

01:35:20

and I tested it out with a collaboration

01:35:22

we did earlier last year

01:35:24

um and it seemed our customer really

01:35:26

wanted it so I was like We'll build

01:35:28

another brand and put it under that

01:35:30

umbrella and see how it goes what is the

01:35:32

goal here I think the goal is like I

01:35:35

mean just generally like with all of

01:35:37

this stuff like what's the goal I I want

01:35:39

rep I want represent to

01:35:42

be a lifestyle and not a brand I want it

01:35:44

to be unconventional and I want it to be

01:35:46

more than just clothes and I say that a

01:35:49

lot recently but I just want it to not

01:35:51

just be about the clothes I want the

01:35:52

clothes to be a byproduct

01:35:54

why why not no one's really done that

01:35:56

yet everyone talks about brand but I

01:35:59

mean what's the point like you know you

01:36:01

got you got the jinkx you got the the

01:36:03

247 range you got the the sort of

01:36:05

original um represent range what is the

01:36:09

finish line here that's the good thing I

01:36:11

don't think there is one I don't think

01:36:13

there is a I don't think there's a limit

01:36:14

to what it can be and what this thing

01:36:17

that started offers 25 screen printed

01:36:19

T-shirts can become over the next 100

01:36:22

years or so but do you not sit around

01:36:24

with Michael and go listen we'll get to

01:36:25

two billion we'll sell it there and

01:36:27

we'll just get a couple of Yachts

01:36:29

no no like look at Ben Francis they got

01:36:33

valued at a billion he's still in the

01:36:34

business it's not it doesn't become

01:36:36

about the money right it's not about the

01:36:39

money it's about what you're actually

01:36:40

able to do and do some things different

01:36:42

and like not be conventional and try and

01:36:45

just I I just want to do something

01:36:47

that's that no one's done you know why

01:36:50

not and I ask these questions you know

01:36:53

I'm playing devil's advocate here

01:36:54

because I think some people think that

01:36:58

this is all kind of like a means to an

01:36:59

end with entrepreneurship generally it's

01:37:01

like a means to an end yeah but when I

01:37:02

speak to entrepreneurs like you it's so

01:37:04

clear that it's much more about the

01:37:06

journey and the journey you're like it

01:37:08

just seems like you probably want to die

01:37:10

on The Journey at some point yeah well

01:37:12

you're speaking to like a lot of

01:37:15

successful people and people that have

01:37:17

been in it for a long time right you're

01:37:18

not speaking to those guys that are

01:37:20

walking around on the street saying I'm

01:37:21

going to build this and I'm going to

01:37:22

sell it in 3 years for six billion or

01:37:25

yeah yeah yeah this is this is my exit

01:37:26

strategy and they've just started they

01:37:28

never work no one ever that never works

01:37:30

for anybody like that's a [ __ ] way

01:37:32

of thinking you're talking to the people

01:37:34

that have really bought into their own

01:37:36

[ __ ] brand and they're living it and

01:37:39

they're loving it and it's for forever I

01:37:41

guess it's a mission isn't it there yeah

01:37:43

that's their mission you're that's kind

01:37:45

of the tagline that I associate to you

01:37:47

because you you post that a lot yeah is

01:37:49

it's it's a mission and there's

01:37:50

something difference between a business

01:37:51

and a mission that's clearly what You'

01:37:53

capsulated what what are you what are

01:37:55

you good at are you good at

01:37:57

business I'm good at understanding

01:38:00

business um but when you say good at

01:38:03

business what do you

01:38:06

mean I mean you can Define it yourself

01:38:08

but I guess what people typically think

01:38:09

of as businesses like operations Finance

01:38:13

processes no I'm not I'm

01:38:15

not not at all I think that's actually

01:38:18

will be really wonderful news to a lot

01:38:20

of people because there's a lot of

01:38:22

people out there that think you have to

01:38:23

be good at business to own a business no

01:38:26

I think it's about starting off and just

01:38:29

figuring things out along the way and

01:38:31

putting people in place of them things

01:38:33

that you're not good at that are way

01:38:34

better than you would it as soon as we

01:38:36

started doing that that's when the

01:38:37

business took

01:38:38

off George we have a closing tradition

01:38:40

on this podcast where the last guest

01:38:42

leaves a question for the next guest not

01:38:43

knowing who they're going to be leaving

01:38:44

it for the question that's been left for

01:38:46

you

01:38:47

is what is something in your life that

01:38:51

you assume to be true but you haven't

01:38:55

yet deeply

01:38:58

questioned this is quite funny because

01:38:59

it's something that I'm really

01:39:00

interested in but like don't don't talk

01:39:03

about it a lot um I

01:39:06

guess whether like the aliens are

01:39:09

amongst

01:39:10

us not what I was expecting you to say

01:39:13

no not at all and it's completely

01:39:14

different to what we've just talked

01:39:15

about for the past however long but that

01:39:17

really like interests me um the fact

01:39:21

that like there's all these different

01:39:23

sto and conspiracies and things that are

01:39:24

going on constantly especially now more

01:39:26

than ever and I wonder if it would

01:39:29

change the world if one of the governing

01:39:32

bodies or whoever it was actually came

01:39:34

out and said yes this is this is this

01:39:37

and these are with us I think it's just

01:39:39

amazing we're going into like the world

01:39:41

of like simulations and Ai and all that

01:39:42

stuff now I say I saw that thing come

01:39:44

out with chat GPT the other day Sora

01:39:46

where they can create they could do text

01:39:47

to video yeah and that's when I I saw

01:39:50

the first reply to Sam alman's tweet

01:39:52

said this is the technology that was

01:39:54

used to create us and and it just

01:39:57

wobbled my brain a little bit because I

01:39:58

thought now we're getting to a point

01:40:00

where we've got these Apple Vision Pro

01:40:03

headsets and we're able to make video

01:40:05

with

01:40:06

text and I'm looking at this woman in HD

01:40:09

that's like 85 years old that was made

01:40:11

by typing a couple of words and you just

01:40:13

assume any rate of

01:40:15

improvement and eventually you get to

01:40:17

something that is indistinguishable from

01:40:20

the world real yeah reality yeah we

01:40:22

might even be a video game I think

01:40:24

there's I've heard Elon talk about this

01:40:26

and he's like he talks about it he said

01:40:28

so much that he's had to ban the

01:40:29

conversation right because you fall into

01:40:32

a little bit of a hole Yeah you you

01:40:34

literally have no idea who we are what

01:40:36

we're doing why we why we're here and

01:40:39

yeah is there an alternate universe or

01:40:40

are we just living in someone else's

01:40:42

head I don't know so interesting thank

01:40:45

you Georgia thank you for a number of

01:40:47

reasons thank you for dressing me for

01:40:48

the last uh three years because um I

01:40:51

think your clothes are the best no thank

01:40:53

it's a very subjective thing but but in

01:40:55

terms of quality and consideration

01:40:58

sometimes you can tell when someone has

01:41:00

gone the extra mile in a piece of work

01:41:01

right pretty much always when they've

01:41:03

thought about things from first

01:41:05

principles they've really thought about

01:41:06

all the decisions and that's what

01:41:07

represent has always been to me a brand

01:41:09

that always thinks about the decisions

01:41:11

um and it's different in every way as I

01:41:13

said from an endtoend experience it's

01:41:15

different and you can tell that the

01:41:17

brand comes from somebody somewhere

01:41:19

heart right and you can you can tell the

01:41:21

difference again with Brands where you

01:41:23

know someone didn't really care about

01:41:25

the process and they were maybe copying

01:41:27

something else and then there's this

01:41:28

other brand called represent where it's

01:41:30

clearly coming from someone somewhere

01:41:32

heart and their own unique Vision that's

01:41:34

why I've always loved the brand um and

01:41:36

that's why I think you've been able to

01:41:39

cultivate this cult because there's

01:41:41

something in humans where they can tell

01:41:43

the real from the not so real yeah they

01:41:45

can just feel it we can feel it and

01:41:47

that's what represent has always been

01:41:49

and that's why I've always been so

01:41:50

fascinated by you and your brother um

01:41:52

and a huge supporter of both both of you

01:41:53

and on like a human level you're just

01:41:55

both just [ __ ] great guys I

01:41:56

appreciate and I say that behind your

01:41:57

back all the time I go that guy's a

01:41:58

great guy he's just like a really nice

01:42:00

humble human being and on paper you know

01:42:03

people might look and go he has a lot of

01:42:04

reasons not to be yeah this guy looks

01:42:06

like [ __ ] something that was

01:42:07

literally drawn on a piece of paper by

01:42:09

an alien

01:42:10

like but but and he's got this

01:42:12

incredible business but he's a really

01:42:13

good human being and so is Michael so

01:42:16

thank you for the inspiration keep doing

01:42:17

what you're doing cuz the mission that

01:42:18

you're on is um inspiring many other

01:42:21

people to start missions of their own

01:42:23

yeah I think that's something that the

01:42:24

world needs a lot more of so I

01:42:26

appreciate it thanks for having me on

01:42:27

loved

01:42:28

[Music]

01:42:51

it

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Episode Highlights

The Power of Family Support
His mother's encouragement shaped his ambition and drive to succeed.
“You’ve got to carry your brother and sister; you’ve got to carry this family on.”
@ 04m 04s
March 25, 2024
Overcoming Doubt
Despite doubts from others, he remained confident in his vision and determination.
“I never had a doubt that it wouldn’t work.”
@ 14m 07s
March 25, 2024
Rebuilding the Team
Hiring friends can be fun, but it’s essential to find the right fit for growth.
“I hired all my friends because I wanted to enjoy it.”
@ 19m 57s
March 25, 2024
Transformative Challenges
Embracing mental toughness challenges can lead to significant personal and professional growth.
“I started seeing crazy results in my life.”
@ 32m 55s
March 25, 2024
Reinventing the Business
The team shifted focus to direct-to-consumer sales, leading to significant growth.
“We stripped back all the wholesale and focused on DTC.”
@ 36m 45s
March 25, 2024
Overcoming Legal Challenges
Faced with a trademark dispute, the team fought to retain their brand identity.
“That was the worst day in the business.”
@ 46m 27s
March 25, 2024
Building a Brand Community
The brand has become a cult-like community, fostering a sense of belonging.
“It’s a good cult, no one’s getting murdered.”
@ 56m 46s
March 25, 2024
Money and Happiness
Money is important, but it doesn't define happiness or success.
“Money never has a negative impact.”
@ 01h 03m 57s
March 25, 2024
The Pressure of Passion
Balancing passion and anxiety can feel like a self-inflicted prison.
“It feels like your passions become a bit of a prison.”
@ 01h 14m 32s
March 25, 2024
Building a Brand's DNA
Creating a brand's identity and sticking to it is crucial for longevity.
“It's about creating the DNA of what the brand is.”
@ 01h 21m 12s
March 25, 2024
The Importance of Co-founders
Having a co-founder can alleviate loneliness and provide essential support in business.
“I always have him to lean into”
@ 01h 30m 01s
March 25, 2024
The Vision Beyond Profit
Entrepreneurship is about the journey and mission, not just financial gain.
“It’s not about the money, it’s about what you’re actually able to do”
@ 01h 36m 39s
March 25, 2024

Episode Quotes

Key Moments

Team Dynamics19:57
Personal Transformation32:55
Small Steps36:00
Trademark Battle46:27
Money Talks1:02:42
Hard Work1:22:16
Journey Over Profit1:36:39
Inspiration1:42:21

Words per Minute Over Time

Vibes Breakdown

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December 15, 2022

01:11:56

Barbara Corcoran: Turning $1,000 to $1Billion! | E204

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01:24:23

Mary Portas: How To Stop Living A Life That Isn't True To You | E85

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August 09, 2021

01:25:59

NotOnTheHighStreet.com Founder: Rapid Success Lead To My Darkest Days - Holly Tucker | E92

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01:44:14

Reggie Yates Reveals The Secret To Staying Driven & Reaching Your Potential | E90

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December 11, 2023

01:46:22

Casey Neistat: Why I Quit YouTube & What I'm Doing Now!

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02:03:03

Russ Cook (Hardest Geezer): I Haven't Told The Whole Truth About Africa!

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November 21, 2022

01:31:18

Labrinth: The Musical Genius Behind Euphoria!

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December 20, 2021

01:34:09

The Subtle Art Of Not Giving A F*ck: Mark Manson | E111

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December 13, 2021

01:41:24

Molly Mae: How She Became Creative Director Of PLT At 22 | 110

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01:48:46

Monzo CEO On Death Threats, Depression & Digital Banking Wars: Tom BlomField

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01:36:09

Craig David Opens Up About His Painful Rise, Fall & Redemption | E135

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February 20, 2025

01:43:15

MrBeast: If You Want To Be Liked, Don't Help People & I Lost Tens Of Millions On Beast Games!