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You've written one of the best-selling books in history about habits because people always need more practical help
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with implementing their habits. And I have different strategies and different tools to get habits to stick, including
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one principle that is probably the single most important for building habits, but so much of it is about mastering the art of getting started.
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Let's get started then. James Clear is one of the world's leading habit experts. is educating millions to build
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lasting habits, master goal setting, and ultimately redesign their lives. There are four different stages that
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every habit goes through. Q, craving, response, and reward. So, first, we want to make it obvious. Easier it is to see
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or get your attention, the more likely you are to act on it. The second is about the craving. It's all about making it attractive. And the more engaging or
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exciting it is, the more likely you are to stick with it. The third is to make it easy. The easier a habit is to perform, the more likely it is to
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happen. And then the fourth and final one is to make it satisfying. And that's about increasing the odds that you do it next time. And there's some tools that
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we can go through. But one of the big takeaways from atomic habits is it's easier to build a new habit if you stack
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it on top of the habit you're already doing. So let's say that your current habit is you make a cup of coffee. And the new habit that you want to build is
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you want to start meditating. So then you could say, "All right, after I make my morning cup of coffee, I will meditate for 60 seconds." And you can do
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it for anything. There's also a framework that I call hats, haircuts, and tattoos. the secret to winning, habit shaping, and real lesson of
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getting 1% better every day. And we can talk about all of them. But is there any frameworks, any tactics? If you're trying to break a
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habit, if you want to break a bad habit, there's some things that you can do. James, the book has shaped tens and tens
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and tens of millions of lives, is there anything you look back on that you regret? If I could add something, I would add this because if you really
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want to make progress again and again, if you want to get to the top and stay at the top and you need to be able to
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I see messages all the time in the comment section that some of you didn't realize you didn't subscribe. So, if you
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could do me a favor and double check if you're a subscriber to this channel, that would be tremendously appreciated. It's the simple, it's the free thing
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that anybody that watches this show frequently can do to help us here to keep everything going in this show in the trajectory it's on. So, please do
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double check if you've subscribed and uh thank you so much because in a strange way you are you're part of our history
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and you're on this journey with us and I appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank you.
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James, you've written thousands and thousands of things, but one particular thing you wrote called Atomic Habits is
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one of the bestselling books in history. Um, it is rumored to be potentially
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in the top 100 books that have sold in history of all time, but also rumored to be potentially the youngest book to make
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the top 100 books in history. My question is, what has the success of Atomic Habits
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taught you about the nature of humanity and humans?
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We all have habits. We all need habits. You know, it's one of those really it's an interesting concept because it is
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both universal in the sense that we all have them, we all need them, but it's also highly individual. Your habits feel
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like your habits, not mine, you know, and so it's both universal and specific. Uh, and that's that's an interesting
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contrast, and I think it leads to one of the reasons why people are so interested in the topic. You know, we all have
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them. We all need them. We all feel like they're our own, and we want to come up with our little version of them. But the
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habit also is like an entrance ramp to how you spend your time in other ways. Like the habit of pulling out your
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phone, that habit might only take two seconds to do, but then it might dictate what you do for the next hour. You know,
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you're answering emails or browsing social media or playing a video game or whatever. And it was really the initial
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habit of pulling out the phone that shaped what that hour did. So the
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influence of our habits is enormous. You know, in a lot of ways, your your results in life are kind of a lagging
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measure of the habits that precede them. You know, like your knowledge is a lagging measure of your reading and learning habits. Your bank account is a
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lagging measure of your financial habits. Even silly stuff like the amount of clutter in your living room is the
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lagging measure of your cleaning habits. And so, we all so badly want our
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outcomes to change, you know, we also badly want our results to change, but the results are not actually the thing
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that needs to change. It's like fix the habits and the results will fix themselves. Change the inputs and the outputs will shift automatically.
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And it's funny because the book has shaped tens and tens and tens of millions of lives, but it also must have shaped you in some ways. Oh, of course. In a way, I had to learn
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the concepts to write the book. Like I had to build writing habits to write the book. The fact that I have struggled
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with habits and failed with them. The fact that I've tried things and it hasn't worked out. The fact that I have eventually broken through and been able
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to build habits. that all of that made the book better because you realize how hard it is to have something practical
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to say. I actually think I have this little theory that uh a lot of books are branded as how-to books, but they're
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actually what to books. They tell you what to think. You should be confident. You should believe in yourself. You should take XYZ action, but they don't
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actually tell you how to do those things. And in and in hindsight, is there anything you look back on that you
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regret about the book? I don't think there's anything that I regret. If I could add something, I would add something. I would add this
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simple question, which is, what would it look like if this was fun? What would it look like if your habits were fun? Like
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the most common New Year's resolution is to do some form of exercise. So, you know, I feel like a lot of people are
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going to the gym in January because they feel like they should go to the gym or society wants them to go to the gym, you
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know, or there's some kind of social pressure to go to the gym. But if we were to come up with a list of what it
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means to be active and fit, you know, and healthy, we could come up with a long list of things. Go to the gym and
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lift weights. You could kayak, rock climb, do yoga, pilates, what, like, you know, we could probably sit here for
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like 15 minutes and come up with a real long list. And for most of your habits, if it's an important habit to you, I
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think it's worth it to take 10 minutes and write that list out and then look at it at the end and say, "What would this
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look like if it was fun? what's which of these options is the most fun to me. And
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that doesn't mean that your habits will be like the most fun thing that you do each day. You know, it's not like it's
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always going to feel like going to a concert or something, but it does mean that pretty much any habit can be more
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fun than the default, you know? So, you might as well take a little bit of time to figure out what is the fun version of this. And ultimately, I think the reason
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why this matters is that if you're having fun, you're more likely to stick with it. You're more likely to
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persevere. The person who's having fun is actually the person who's dangerous. Like you don't want to compete with them
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because they're having a good time. When it gets difficult, they're way more likely to stick with it. The person who
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it felt like a hassle at the start was kind of, you know, annoying. They sort of have a negative frame around the the
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behavior to begin with. Well, as soon as it gets difficult, they didn't want to do it in the first place. So, they're much more likely to give up. David
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Epstein, who's the author of uh Range and Sports Genius, friend of mine, um he told me once, "Grit is fit." Grit is
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fit. And what he means is that everybody wants to be gritty. They want to persevere. But the way that you display
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that grit and discipline and perseverance is in areas where you are well suited, where it's a good fit for
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you. If it's a good fit, if you're well suited for it, if you're having fun, if you're interested and engaged, then
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you're way more likely to stick with it. And so, in a lot of ways, I feel like the biggest hurdle to clear, and this is
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true maybe for life in general, but definitely for habits, because everybody wants to be consistent with their habits. Everybody wants to stick to
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them. The biggest hurdle to clear is are you interested? Are are you engaged? Are you having fun? And so the more that you
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can get closer to that, the more fun it can be, the more likely you are to persevere and stick with it.
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I was just thinking about this idea actually the other day because I I was writing when we hit a subscriber
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milestone. I was writing to think about what actually mattered the most. And one of the first thing I wrote was creating the conditions to out persist.
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And what I mean by that is like create the conditions so that you can do this for long enough that things start
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compounding in your favor. like learning starts compounding in your favor like the the returns like the the subscribers
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or it could be your finances whatever start compounding in your favor. The question that you asked is very similar to one that I ask myself a lot
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which is am I creating the conditions for success. So I had a really good stretch of training in the gym and then
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uh about two and a half years ago I was in pretty good shape and then I had a year where it was just like really inconsistent. I missed a lot of workouts
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things sometimes it would go well sometimes it wouldn't whatever. And after that year I was like okay I got to change something. And on the surface,
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you look at it and you think, I'm having trouble with the workouts. You think there's some problem with, you know, exercise, but that was actually not the
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problem. The problem was I wasn't creating the conditions for success. And so, there were lots of other things
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that were intervening and like making interrupting my day and making it easy for me to miss. So, this last year, I
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hired a trainer and he shows up at 11:00 a.m. every, you know, four days a week. And when he gets there, every single
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time it's a hassle because I'm in the middle of something. Um, right? every time I've got something going on and I
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kind of am like annoyed by it that he's there, but we're creating the conditions for success and it makes sure that I get
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down there and I do it and then every time when I get done with the workout, I'm like, I'm glad I took the time to do that. Um, and so nothing really needed
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to change with the workout. That was not the problem. The problem was I didn't have the right conditions to start the
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workout. M and so I think this actually reveals a really deep and important thing about
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habits which is so much of it is about mastering the art
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of getting started. It's making it easy to start in a way like probably 70% of
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what's in atomic habits are different strategies and different ideas and different tools that help you get
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started or makes starting easier. This trainer who I've been working with now he he came over the other day and he
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told me, "Yeah, I had a class in the morning. eight people were supposed to come, but it was like it was a pretty gross day. It was like rainy and wet and
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kind of cold and only two people showed up. And I was talking to him about it and I said, "What's interesting to me
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about that is how little of an edge you need to gain an advantage." You know,
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really what we're talking about there is you just need to be okay with being inconvenienced or uncomfortable for like
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5 to 10 minutes getting dressed, getting through the rain, getting into your car, getting to the gym. The workout is the
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same that it's always been. It's the same. you're in the same gym that you are in the summer or when the weather's beautiful or whatever. So, it's really
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can you handle that like five minutes of inconvenience. And so many things in life are like that. Can you master that little moment?
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And if you can and you can still get started, that's when you gain an advantage. Everybody works out on the
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good days. But on the days when you feel stressed and tired, on the days when the weather's bad and it's kind of inconvenient, on the days when you don't
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really feel like it, can you show up? even if it's in a small way. One of my little mantras that I try to keep in
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mind is reduce the scope but stick to the schedule. So the normal scope might
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be I write for 30 minutes and then you look up at the clock and you're like I only have 15. And sometimes what happens
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in your head is you're like oh I don't have enough time to write today. Or you're like oh I was planning to work out for 60 minutes and you look up and
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you're like time got away from me. I only have 20 minutes now. I don't have time to go to the gym. It's easy to talk yourself out of it but reduce the scope
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but stick to the schedule. It's like, well, I only got 20 minutes instead of 60, so I'll just get in there and do a couple sets of squats and that's it. And
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I've had so many workouts that have been like that where you're like almost, you know, it's easy to be kind of
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disappointed you weren't able to do the whole thing that you wanted to do. But you didn't throw up a zero. And if you
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don't throw up a zero, you maintain the habit. And if you maintain the habit, all you need is time. And so the bad
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days are more important than the good days in that sense. You need to figure out how do you show up even if when it's not optimal.
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And that first five minutes. Yeah, I was thinking about all the the first five minute battles that I've won over the
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last week because I've, you know, I lost track of my workout. I've been traveling through Asia on this tour I've been doing. Got back, fallen off. The
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motivation doesn't seem to be quite the same as it was before I left. So, it's
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like I'm dragging myself there. The workouts are like four out of 10. Um, but I went.
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Yeah. And now I'm I think the momentum is building. But that first 5 minute point, is there anything that you've learned,
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any frameworks, any tactics for for making sure you you get past that first 5 minutes so you can get into the the
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flow of the habit? Yeah, there's multiple things. So first thing is try to prime the environment to
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make the first action easy. Prime the environment to make the first action easy. So let's say writing for example.
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I find that for myself the biggest point of friction is choosing what to write about. Once I've actually finally
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settled, this is the thing I'm writing today, then I can get into it and I'm off and running. Um, but I'll sit there
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for two hours just debating whether it's the right thing to be focused on writing or not. You know, should I work on this chapter? Should I work on something else
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or whatever. So, what I've started to do is sometimes I will write the first sentence of what I'm going to write and
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just leave it on the Google doc right there and then leave. And the next day when I come back, I'm already in, right?
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Like it's already the first sentence is already written. So now I'm just writing the next piece of what's coming rather than trying to choose what to write
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about. Another one that I've done sometimes is I will write sometimes I'll write the topic or I'll write the sentence on a post-it note and I'll put it on top of
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the keyboard and so when I come into the office it's right there in front of I can't you know I got to pick it off the
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keys to log onto the computer and so it's like remember this is what you're writing about right now you know so it's
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just trying to make it easy to get in. I have a bunch of readers who do stuff like set their running out running clothes out the night before, you know,
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so they're right next to the bed. You got your clothes and your shoes there. I one woman I just talked to uh her at an event. She came up afterward and she
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said, "I actually sleep in my running clothes and just get out and get put her shoes on and goes right out the door."
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But you're trying to prime the environment to make the action easy. Okay. So, how can you set up the spaces that you're in uh to prime those habits?
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I think one really interesting question to ask, walk into the rooms where you spend most of your time each day, your
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office, your living room, your bedroom, and then look around and ask yourself, what is this space designed to
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encourage? What behaviors are easy here? What behaviors are obvious here? And the
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good habits that you say you want to build, are those the path of least resistance? Is that the obvious thing in this environment? And if not, maybe you
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can make some adjustments to try to make the good habit easier and the distractions maybe a little bit harder.
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So that's first thing, prime the environment to make the action easy. Second thing is if there's like one
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principle that is probably the single most important for building habits, it's make it easy. Just scale it down and
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make it easy. I refer to it sometimes as the two-minute rule. So take whatever habit you're trying to work on, you
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scale it down to something that takes two minutes or less to do. Read 30 books a year becomes read one page or do yoga
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four days a week becomes take out my yoga mat. Sometimes I will mention this to people and they resist it a little bit. You
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know, they're like, "Okay, buddy." Like, I know the real goal isn't just to take my yoga mat out. You know, I know I'm actually trying to do the workout. So,
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this is some kind of mental trick and I know it's a trick. Then why would I fall for it? Basically, but there's this guy,
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I mentioned him in Atomic Habits, his name is Mitch. And he went to the gym and for the first six weeks, he had this
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strange little rule for himself where he wasn't allowed to stay for longer than 5 minutes. So, you get in the car, drive
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to the gym, get out, do half an exercise, get back in the car, drive home. And you're like, "This sounds
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silly, right? Clearly, this is not going to get the guy the results that he wants." But what you realize is that he
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was mastering the art of showing up, right? He was becoming the type of person that went to the gym four days a
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week, even if it was only for five minutes. And so, I think this is kind of a deep truth about habits, which is a
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habit must be established before it can be improved. you know, has to become the standard in your life before you
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optimize and scale it up into something more. There's that quote from Ed Latimore where he says, "The heaviest
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weight at the gym is the front door." There are a lot of things in life that are like that. And so, by trying to make
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it easy to master, to easy to get started, um then you're in the game now.
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You're in the arena. There's all kinds of things you can improve from there. I remember um Jordan Peterson saying talking about his some of his clinical
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um patients and referring to one in particular who was in a room full of junk and couldn't leave the room because
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of a certain fear and certain psychological problems he had. And Jordan saying that day one they just
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brought the Hoover into the room and that was it. Day two they plugged the Hoover in and that was it. And then by
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day like 30 the guy is out of the room, the room is clean and he's walking around outside for the first time in in
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months or years. And he goes on to say that the reason why people don't get started is because the first step is so
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embarrassing. People think that it's not worth it or that it's like shameful to do. It's like almost like patronizingly
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embarrassing. And um I've always kept that in mind uh since then and when from your work as well just that assume the
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first steps are like embarrassingly small. There's this process called habit shaping which is is basically like that.
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Um, you know, like if you want to run a half marathon, the first day the step might be to put on your running shoes
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and then the second day the step is to like walk outside the front door and the third day the step is to go around the block. And you know, you're just like
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gradually shaping into this this larger habit. But there's this thing that happens when people think about building
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better habits. I think particularly ambitious people, it's very easy to get excited about all the changes you can
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make. You start thinking, even if you don't say this explicitly, you think like, what would peak performance look like? you know, if I could really get my
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habits dialed in, what could I do? And you start imagining five, six, seven things that you would do and what all of them would look like in their perfect
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form and so on. And I think instead of asking ourselves, what could I do on my
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best day, it's better to start by asking what can I stick to even on the bad days? And that becomes your baseline.
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That becomes the first step. And now that you have this floor that is achievable even when you're tired, even
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when you're exhausted, even when you don't have much time, now you can show up and feel like you're succeeding, you
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know, and then you can progress from there. One of the most motivating feelings to the human mind is a feeling of progress. If you feel like you're
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making progress, even if it's smaller than what you ultimately hope to do, you have every reason to move forward. But
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often we become like a victim of our expectations. We ex we spend all this time optimizing the perfect plan and
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then expect things to go perfectly out of the gate and you had it so built up in your mind that once you don't hit
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that mark in the f first or second or third day it falls apart. And you talked earlier on about sitting
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there for two hours thinking about what to write. I I think I've learned through through business and in the first
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iteration of my career where I worked with CEOs and executives that were planning marketing campaigns that actually in hindsight often the biggest
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cost wasn't being wrong. It was the time you waste making a decision. You see this if you've ever you've interacted with so many big corporations. Yeah.
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Like they spend 18 months thinking about get waiting for Joanna to come back from annual leave to get procurement to sign
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off the thing. And I worked with this one particular founder during that season of my life who where I was
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working with his dad and him and his dad would take nine months because the company was so big. His son would
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interrupt me halfway through the idea and call us all in and say do it now. And he taught me that actually in life
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that the biggest cost is the time you waste making the decision. And I think about that with my own habits. I think
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sometimes sitting around thinking about whether I'm going to run today is costing me much more than just [ __ ]
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And do you think about how you kill that mental debate? Like is that an effective strategy to try and kill the debate and not make a decision per se?
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Yeah. So speed is perpetually undervalued. That's for sure. Life is short and so the sooner that you make
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decisions, the sooner you get information. Now, I will say I I have a little framework that I call hats,
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haircuts, and tattoos. And this is how how I kind of think about it. So, a lot of decisions are like hats. Just try you
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try one hat. If you don't like it, take it off. You can try another. It's just real quick. You you know, you get some information. Speed is most important.
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Move quickly, get some information, learn something. If it was wrong, it's not that big of a deal. Just take it off and put a new hat on. Haircut is a
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little bit trickier. It's a It's a decision that you have to live with for a little bit. you know, like you're okay
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if you get a bad haircut, but you're gonna you're gonna have to live with it for a month or two. You know, it's it's going to take a little bit of time for it to grow out. And so, it's probably
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not a big deal to be scared of getting a bad haircut. I think a lot of people probably talk themselves out of it. It's like, you'll be fine in a month. It's
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it's fine. Tattoos are trickier. You know, you get a tattoo, you got to live with that choice. It's permanent. And
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so, if a really what we're getting at here is, is the choice reversible or is the choice irreversible? If the choice
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is easy to reverse, speed is most important. You should move fast. If it's hard to reverse and you got to live with
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it, then you need to think carefully before you make the call. Um, and I think probably what you're seeing uh
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through some of your experiences is that most decisions in life are hats and haircuts. It's very rare that you end up
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with a tattoo, but we treat them all like tattoos. We Yeah, we uh I think in particular we
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are we are scared, particularly the bad haircuts. I think the ones that like linger for just a little bit, but not
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that long. It's like it's going to take you a month to fix this if if you get it wrong, but like that's fine. a month's going to pass anyway. Um, and so it's
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not that big of a deal, but we we act like it's a bigger deal than it is. Is there a particular case study or story from a Atomic Habits community
00:20:50
member or someone that reads your newsletter that has been the most impactful for you?
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There's not a single one. There are lots that I'm like proud of or really excited by, ones I'm surprised by. Um, I heard
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from a guy the other day, he was the head coach at St. Olaf's University in Minnesota and men's soccer. And when he
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came in, their record was something like five and 13 and they were, you know, like near the bottom of the standings.
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And he was like, I read Atomic Habits right around the time I took this job. And we came up with systems for
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everything we did. We taught our players systems for how they tie their shoes and cleats to get ready for the game. We taught them systems for how they prepped
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for practice. We taught them systems for their role on the field. And uh, you know, gradually they improved each year,
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five and 13. Then they went like eight and eight. And then the next year after that they won the conference. And then the year after that they went to the
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NCAA Sweet 16 and then five years later they won the national championship. You know, of course stuff like that's
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awesome to hear about, right? You're like they went from they went from five wins uh in and then in five years later
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they win the national title. But the ones that matter to me the most are the ones that I hear from somebody and they
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say um I finally feel better. You know, I feel different. I look in the mirror
00:22:01
and I'm like proud of who I am or uh my kids tell me that they're excited to see, you know, the change in me or
00:22:06
things like that. And that's what it's always been about, you know, it's always been about becoming the type of person that you want to be. And so I think uh
00:22:13
anytime I I hear stories like that, I think it's exciting. So when this um was it a coach or was it
00:22:18
Yeah, Travis Wall is the head coach at St. Olaf's. Um he's the head coach at Kenyon. Uh now, so he talked about systems there. Most
00:22:25
of us think about to-do lists and goals and those kinds of things. What what is the difference between a system and a
00:22:31
goal? I was very goal driven for a long time. I I mean, I probably still am. You know, I don't think there's any way to get around the fact that we all have goals
00:22:38
and think about the outcomes we want and so on. But a goal is about the outcome that you want to achieve and a system is
00:22:44
about the process for getting there. And so your goal is the target, the outcome, the thing you're shooting for. Your
00:22:50
system is the collection of daily habits that you follow. And if there is ever a gap between your goal and your system,
00:22:58
if there's ever a gap between your desired outcome and your daily habits, your daily habits will always win,
00:23:05
you know. And so almost by definition, your current habits are perfectly designed to deliver your current
00:23:11
results. You know, if you want to see like where you're going to end up, just follow the trajectory of your habits.
00:23:16
you know what's the process you've been running for the last 6 months or year or two years and they've carried you almost
00:23:21
inevitably to the outcomes that you have right now I'm not saying that habits are the only thing that matter in life right
00:23:27
like strategy matters luck randomness uh those misfortune those things can influence the outcome but by definition
00:23:35
luck and randomness are not under your control and your habits are and the only
00:23:40
reasonable rational approach in life is to focus on the pieces that are within your control so I think goals can be
00:23:47
good for setting a sense of direction. They're good for clarity. You know, especially if you have a team, get everybody rowing in the same direction.
00:23:53
But once you've decided what the goal is, you should basically set it on the shelf, metaphorically speaking, and
00:23:59
spend the vast majority of your time focused on building a better system. How are the habits we're executing each day moving us closer to this outcome that we
00:24:06
want? And so where I've come after talking about this for five or six years now since book's been out, where I've
00:24:12
come down on it is goals are best for people who care about winning once. Systems are best for people who care
00:24:18
about winning repeatedly. If you really want to make progress again and again, if you want to get to the top and stay at the top, you need some process for
00:24:25
staying up there. Some collection of habits that's going to keep uh this machine running. So this is why, you
00:24:31
know, I say in the book, we don't rise to level of our goals, we fall to level of our systems. As you were talking, I
00:24:37
was thinking so much about about business and founders and entrepreneurs because they all have big goals. We want
00:24:43
to build the best AI app or the best I don't know restaurant and we they stay
00:24:48
really focused on those. But the great the greatest founders that I think I've met and interviewed on this show are actually really orientated on like what
00:24:54
you call in the book first principles and systems. Mhm. Is there a way to to become more
00:25:00
orientated towards systems and and thinking about first principles like the the habits that lead to the goal is or
00:25:06
is it just just so that some people have it cuz like Elon Musk is always talking about first principles and he thinks in
00:25:12
terms of building the system. I do think some of it is personality and like what you what's exciting to you to think
00:25:18
about like some people are very future oriented and like thinking about what the systems are and what that would lead them to and and so on um or more
00:25:25
processoriented but there are a number of questions that you can ask that can help you figure out like what systems
00:25:31
you should be focused on you know so like a couple of the ones I like one question is can my current habits carry
00:25:37
me to my desired future so you have a bunch of habits you're following right now what what path are you on you know
00:25:43
can your current habits take you there? And they could be either way. Like sometimes the answer is yes. And what
00:25:48
you need is patience. You just need to keep, you know, staying on the path. But sometimes the answer is no. And then obviously something needs to change. You
00:25:54
know, you're hoping for one outcome, but then you're following a different lifestyle. So to want the outcome without the
00:25:59
lifestyle is to like torture yourself. And what really matters is not do you want the the result. Anybody would like
00:26:06
the result if you just hand it to them. The question is do you want the lifestyle? One of the little things I try to do whenever I have a new business
00:26:12
project that I'm thinking about or something I'm I'm excited about potentially doing, the first question I ask is how do I want to spend my days?
00:26:19
And so then you like draw a box and inside that box, how can we make the
00:26:24
most money, reach the most people, make the biggest impact, you know, make the contribution that you want to make, but not outside of it. And what happens a
00:26:31
lot of the time is people do that in reverse. They start by asking how can we make the most money or reach the most people or make the biggest impact and
00:26:38
then they decide oh well this is what I want to do but it's actually outside of how they want to spend their days
00:26:43
and it's not going to work out well because you know it goes back to our point uh previously about is this fun you know if the if they don't want to
00:26:50
spend their time that way you're just grinding for a little while and eventually it's not going to work. That's the key for building systems that
00:26:56
really work is is this how you want to spend your days. the person who wants to live the lifestyle is much better
00:27:01
positioned to get the result. You say that um there are multiple problems with with goals as a I guess as
00:27:08
a rubric for thinking about what to do or what to aim for. One of them is that winners and losers have the same goals.
00:27:16
Everybody wants the results. Let's say you have a 100 people apply for a job. You got a new job opening. Presumably, every candidate has the goal
00:27:22
of getting the job. The goal is not the thing that determines the outcome. So the person who wins and the 99 people
00:27:28
who lose, they have the same goals. You look at the Olympic Games, presumably any event, everybody who's competing has
00:27:33
the goal of winning the Olympic medal, right? Of winning the gold. So the goal is not the thing that makes the
00:27:38
difference. So again, winners and losers have the same goals. So if they have the same goals, they cannot be the thing
00:27:44
that make the difference in their performance. It has to be something else. Maybe having a goal is part of it. Maybe it's necessary, but it's not
00:27:50
sufficient for the outcome that you want. And for that, what you need is a system. You need a collection of habits
00:27:55
that are going to make the difference um and uh and accumulate into a bigger outcome. And you say goals restrict your
00:28:01
happiness. There's some implicit promise internally that once I get to this goal, then I'll
00:28:06
be happy. You know, once I write a New York Times bestseller, then I'll feel better about it. You know, once I
00:28:12
achieve this certain number on the scale, then I'll be happy with my body. Once I get to a million dollars in
00:28:17
revenue, then I'll be happy with the business. And so you're kind of constantly pushing happiness off to the
00:28:23
next milestone and thinking that once you get there, then finally you'll be satisfied. But I think in fact the
00:28:29
better way to do it is to fall in love with the process, to fall in love with the lifestyle, then you can be happy
00:28:35
along the way and still achieve the goals as you go, still achieve the milestones. For a long time, I wrestled
00:28:41
I had trouble with this question of do I have to be dissatisfied if I want to be driven? Yeah. Do you have to be dissatisfied to be
00:28:46
driven? Because to me, I felt like there's where I'm at right now and
00:28:51
there's where I want to be. And so there's this gap and there that gap is dissatisfaction. That gap is, you know,
00:28:57
you're you want it to change. You want it to close. And it's also what is motivating and driving you is to try to
00:29:03
close that gap. And so the healthiest answer, maybe the answer is yes, I don't
00:29:09
know. But uh the healthiest answer that I've come up with is imagine like an acorn falls from a tree. it manages to
00:29:15
take root, becomes a seedling and then a sapling and eventually grows into this mature oak tree. And at no point in that
00:29:22
process when it was just an acorn, it wasn't criticizing itself for not being a sapling. You know, it was just a sapling, it wasn't criticizing itself
00:29:27
for not being an oak. Um, it wasn't dissatisfied with where it was at. And nobody came over and was criticizing it
00:29:33
for, "Oh, I can't believe you're not a full-grown tree yet." But it kept growing the whole time. So
00:29:40
simultaneously you have this thing where it was both perfect at each stage that it was at. Nothing was wrong and yet it
00:29:46
continued to grow. And the reason is because that's just what an oak tree does. That's what it is encoded to do.
00:29:52
It is encoded for growth. And so when I look at myself, I think if I put myself in the right position, that's how I feel
00:29:59
about it. You know, I I am perfectly happy with where I'm at at each stage. And yet I'm encoded to grow, right? I'm
00:30:07
encoded to keep going. And so I can both be driven and be satisfied. I can both
00:30:12
be appreciative of the moment and still moving forward. And I think that works best when you find that thing. Sometimes
00:30:18
we call it your strengths. Sometimes we might say it's what you're encoded to do. Uh but when you find that thing that
00:30:24
is well aligned for you and if you do find that, then you can have both of those. I love that. I love that. And I think
00:30:30
with with age and maturity, I've gotten closer to being in that region where I'm well aware nothing is going to make me
00:30:36
happier at all. like no accomplishment future nothing's going to change anything but at the same time I'm still striving
00:30:42
and that does feel like a contradiction to some degree it feels like how can those two things be true at the same time that you're striving for things
00:30:47
that you know won't really move the needle in any any way the difference I see between like me and something in
00:30:55
nature is that I the thing in nature probably isn't comparing itself on Instagram to like
00:31:00
everyone else and I understand humans to be like comparison machines kind of how we understand the value of things like I
00:31:06
understand the value of the steak on a menu by the the cheap steak and the most expensive one. So I think the middle one
00:31:11
is probably right. Do you think much about comparison as a motivating or demotivating force in this picture?
00:31:18
I think it can be very helpful and also it can also be very harmful. So it's just sort of a a sense of how you use it. I tend to find it better if you
00:31:25
compare small things. So if you compare marketing strategies or squat form or you know writing style or you know the
00:31:31
first sentence of each chapter like how do I have a good intro? If you compare tactics, then that can be really helpful
00:31:36
for building skills and for developing your ability. If you compare big things, marriage, net worth, you know, things
00:31:42
like that, it's like that's just kind of a recipe for ending up unhappy. Um because they as the scale gets bigger,
00:31:48
things get more vague. There's so many things involved in marriage and so you know, or net worth or whatever. You you
00:31:55
just see one little slice and you are trying to compare these two big things, but you don't even know what the full picture is. Uh, and so comparison is
00:32:02
like the teacher of skills when it's applied narrowly, but it's the thief of joy when it's applied broadly.
00:32:08
That makes sense. Yeah. Early on, when you said that, you know, ambitious people, they have lots of aspirations, lots of habits they want to
00:32:13
start. I was thinking about myself and thinking there's probably 30 habits that I would like to acquire. I'd want to be
00:32:19
better at writing. I want to be a runner. I want to be better at speaking. I want to be a better friend and be more
00:32:25
um attentive with my friends and make sure I text them on their birthdays and sh you know all of these new habits that I want to
00:32:31
pursue. How does one know which one to aim for first? Is there a framework for
00:32:36
knowing? Yeah, there there's some things that you can do. I don't think um to your point earlier about uh sometimes the riskiest
00:32:43
things just take a long time making a decision. You know, if you maybe you should just pick one and work on it and then you can get on to the next one. But
00:32:48
I do think there's some level of strategy which is a good place to start is by asking yourself which habits are
00:32:54
upstream from other good things happening. So for example I know that if
00:33:00
you were maybe the maybe the question to start with is when you live a good day when you feel dialed in when things are like rolling along well for you what
00:33:07
tends to be part of that day sleep. you know, okay, great. So, that's, you know, I would say for me, sleep, sleep is
00:33:12
definitely one. I would say, uh, getting my workout in. And usually reading and writing are a part of it, but I think I
00:33:18
could just boil it down to reading. If I just read like 10 pages, that often sparks the writing. So, like to me,
00:33:25
reading is like the fuel for writing for me. So, so I could say get a workout in and read for 5 minutes or 10 minutes.
00:33:30
Those are the two things that are part of a good day. And what happens is they're upstream from a lot of other
00:33:36
good things happening. For example, if I get the workout in, yeah, I feel good. I get the benefits of the workout, but I
00:33:41
also have a post-workout high for like an hour or two. So, I my focus and concentration is better. I sleep better
00:33:47
at night because I got the workout in. Now, I'm tired. I tend to eat better when I work out. It's when I'm not working out that I eat
00:33:53
terribly. That's why I don't know. It's kind of like I don't want to waste it or something. So, at no point was I trying
00:33:59
to build better focus habits or sleep habits or nutrition habits. those just came kind of a na as a natural consequence of getting the workout in.
00:34:06
So what are those things that you do that are upstream from other good things happening? I think those are good like
00:34:12
anchor habits to start and focus on. But if I could add another one for myself, I would say it's a little bit of
00:34:19
time. It's really just time to think, but it's it's time to reflect and review. There's this interesting thing that happens if you if you have a really
00:34:25
good work ethic, if you have a strong work ethic and working hard has gotten you far in life. It kind of becomes a
00:34:32
crutch. You know, you for for a long time I was like, if I ever had a problem, I was like, well, I'll just work my way out of it, you know? I'll
00:34:38
just just work harder on it until I figure it out. And that that's great. That's really powerful for a lot of
00:34:43
things. But at some point it breaks, you know, like you can maybe if you really try maybe you can work 10% harder or 20%
00:34:50
harder, but there's some limit. But if you work on the right thing, well, you could get 100x the result or thousandx
00:34:55
the result. And so if you just keep your head down and work hard, it's very unlikely that you'll be spending your
00:35:02
time in the highest and best way. And the only way to figure that out is to have time to reflect and review. Time
00:35:08
to think, you know, so you need enough time to think to figure out what should I be focused on next. And so I think
00:35:14
that is it's almost reflection and review is almost like the meta habit that is above all others because if you
00:35:21
give yourself time to reflect and review then you can troubleshoot your habits and figure out how to adjust them. I was
00:35:26
thinking as you were saying that that that that time to reflect and review is actually also a review of are my current
00:35:32
systems moving me closer because when when when you're talking about that I was thinking of times in my life where I
00:35:37
was so close to like the picture and I was so in the trenches doing the thing that I hadn't come up to even say
00:35:42
actually is there a system I could put in place to solve this problem over the next five or 10 years like for example
00:35:48
is there a person I need to hire so actually should I go into the hiring process versus be in there fixing the
00:35:53
problem myself should I spend 10 hours this week hire on hiring a candidate to do this or should I be doing it but
00:35:59
sometimes you get so caught up in the trenches when especially when things are tough and and difficult and moving very quickly that you don't review your
00:36:06
systems and also when you're talking about systems I thought about how systems sometimes expire. Sure. Yeah.
00:36:11
Because things change. That's a great point and I think this is probably one of the most overlooked things with habits. A lot of the time
00:36:17
when someone sits down and they want to build a new habit, they don't say this, but what they kind of assume is what it would mean to be successful with this
00:36:23
habit is that I do it for the rest of my life, you know, and that if at some point I'm not doing it, then that must
00:36:28
mean that I failed or I quit on it. But that's not how it is at all. Like things have a season, you know, and so
00:36:35
habits have to change shape over time. Let's take my um my writing habit for example. I the habit that launched my
00:36:42
career was I wrote a new article every Monday and Thursday and I did that for three years. So the first three years
00:36:47
150 articles you know write twice a week. That was a great habit. They were like 2,000 word pieces or so. But then I
00:36:53
signed the book deal for Atomic Habits. I didn't have the capacity to do that and also write the book. So that had to change. I wrote the book for like three
00:36:59
years and then the book came out and now I write a newsletter once a week and that's much shorter. But I kind of feel
00:37:06
like my writing habit is maintained that whole time. It just changed shape. But that's fine. It just needed to shift based on the season. But I don't know,
00:37:12
people, they get so attached to one form of a habit sometimes that they don't
00:37:17
realize that it's no longer serving them. And I think that's the one of the trickier things to give up is a habit
00:37:23
that used to be good for you, that used to work well, but no longer serves you in your current season. It's I find that
00:37:29
I'm kind of a slow learner with that. I guess parents can probably really relate because they're forced to basically change their goals and therefore their
00:37:36
systems would have to I mean you're a father of three so you probably know this much better than I do but have has
00:37:42
there been systems that you've had to sort of I think there's lots of uh inflection points in life so having kids is one of
00:37:48
them uh starting a new job moving to a new city you know it can be big stuff like that I just talked to a mother who
00:37:54
her kids moved out so she's now an empty neester you know she's like last 25 years I've been parenting all these kids and now finally they're all out, but it
00:38:01
feels in some sense it almost feels like a loss of identity. You know, you're like, I I thought I was one thing and now, you know, feels like things have
00:38:07
shifted. Um, but also it just signals an inflection point in life and a new season that you're in. And when your
00:38:12
seasons change, your habits often need to change with it. And you talk about this um four burners theory which I
00:38:18
guess dovetailes into what we're talking about here where you you use this to kind of think about what habits to
00:38:24
pursue in any season of life but also a phrase that I've heard um so often specifically from mothers on the show
00:38:31
comes to mind which is that you can't have it all at the same time and I've heard that I think four or five times different mothers in particular
00:38:37
which is I mean says something about society yeah have said to me that they've had to realize that they can't have it all at the same time
00:38:42
for sure. So this is not my concept. This this idea that I came across. It's called the four burners theory. And it
00:38:49
breaks life into these four burners on a stove. So you have work and career as one. You have family, friends, and then
00:38:55
personal health or you know uh yourself basically as the other. The idea is that for the burners to really be going well,
00:39:02
you can't have all four on at the same time. And burning stove. The stove. Yeah. Yeah. The stove top. So you you have you can choose you could
00:39:09
have three going on at kind of like a mid level, but if you really want them to do well, you can only have two on at the same time. And you know, who knows?
00:39:17
I I don't know if it's true or not or whatever, but it's an interesting idea. And what it does is it gets you to realize, yeah, a fundamental part of
00:39:24
life is trade-offs. And you cannot be good at everything at the same time. So this is true across projects. If you
00:39:30
choose try to do seven things at once, spreading yourself thin in seven different ways, very hard to be excellent. For me, what I think about is
00:39:37
life has a series of seasons and life has a series of sequences. So, let's say
00:39:43
it's not it's not always exactly 10 years, but let's say the big movements in life are roughly 10-year buckets,
00:39:49
right? So, like for me, building my first business, that was kind of like a 10-year thing and eventually led to the launch of Atomic Habits. You maybe get
00:39:55
five or six of those in your adult life. Some of those things make sense to do in a different order than others. Like if
00:40:02
you want to travel the world and see a bunch of places and party in a visa, you're probably not going to do that in your 60s, you know? Like I mean, you
00:40:08
can. There's no nobody's saying you can't, but some things are probably better sequenced in other, you know, in
00:40:13
other spots. Obviously, there's, you know, especially for women, there's a certain limit on if you want to have a family, what decades that happens in.
00:40:20
So, yeah, it's just uh it's just a matter of sequencing and prioritization. If you look at the like tapestry of your
00:40:25
life, what do you want the big movements to be and where do those seasons need to slot in? Um, yeah, it's a it's a that
00:40:32
there is no right answer, but it's interesting. As soon as you realize it's a finite number, and as soon as you
00:40:38
realize that trade-offs are always going to be a reality, you have to deal with that in some way. Um, I've decided that right now while my
00:40:44
kids are young, like I'm I'm going to turn the career burner down. And that's fine. It's not going to be how it was for the last 10 years. But that's okay
00:40:51
because they're only five once, you know? They're only turning six once. They only go to second grade once. And I I want to be there for all that. So, um,
00:40:59
there are always trade-offs. I think that that sequence point is super super interesting. It got me thinking because you're right, there are
00:41:04
sort of some constraints whether they're biological constraints where in the case of your kids like just natural
00:41:09
constraints that mean this this season can only happen now here, right? Yeah. There's also some things like um,
00:41:16
you know, both of us are fairly young entrepreneurs. I'm so glad that I started a business in my 20s rather than
00:41:22
my 50s. Um, doesn't mean you can't do it in your 50s. There's no nobody's saying you can't. It's just that it makes
00:41:27
things a lot easier for the next decade. You know, it's easier for me to be there for my kids now because I have control of my time because I did the business
00:41:34
part in the previous decade. And so take the risks. Yeah. And and that doesn't mean it's always going to work out or whatever. It
00:41:39
doesn't mean that you're going to be able to perfectly plan it all, but you just see how the sequences can um can
00:41:45
stack up in that way. And how important do you think when we're talking about habits, do you think repetition is? because there's so many
00:41:50
of these sort of well-known concepts or frameworks in habit formation. One of
00:41:56
them is that habits take roughly 66 days. One of them is that it's about repetition. Does repetition really
00:42:02
matter? It definitely does. I mean, repetition is how habits form. Uh the 66 days number comes from one study that came
00:42:08
out that found that on average it took about 66 days to build a habit. If you look at the study, the range is pretty
00:42:14
wide. So, if you pick something really simple like drinking a glass of water um at lunch each day, that might only take
00:42:21
two or three weeks to form. If you look at something more complicated like um going for a run after work every day,
00:42:27
that might take seven or eight or nine months to form. And so, I don't know that 66 days really tells you anything.
00:42:33
It doesn't it doesn't tell you that this is how long it's going to take for your habit to stick. I mean, it the range is wide. Sometimes when people ask me how
00:42:40
long does it take to form a habit, my answer is forever. Because if you stop
00:42:45
doing it, then it's no longer a habit. And what I'm kind of getting at with that is that habits are not a finish
00:42:51
line to be crossed. They're a lifestyle to be lived, you know? And so we approach our habits as if it's a finish
00:42:57
line. Oh, let me do this 30-day cleanse and then I'll be healthy. Let me do this 90-day sprint and then the product will be shipped. I won't have to worry about
00:43:02
it anymore, you know? And it's like most things in life, especially the big important things, they're endless.
00:43:08
They're endless battles, you know. So, just because you went to the gym yesterday earns you no bo bonus points
00:43:14
for tomorrow. Like, you still have to show up tomorrow. Just because you were a good spouse yesterday earns you no bonus points for tomorrow. You still
00:43:20
have to be loving and caring again. Um, and so all the things that really matter
00:43:25
are endless battles. And it's not about crossing a finish line. It's about living that kind of lifestyle. And so,
00:43:30
yes, it is true that repetition matters. And yes, it is true that the habits will become more seamless and automatic and
00:43:38
maybe a little less effortful as you repeat them more, but that doesn't mean that you'll never have to think about
00:43:43
them or, you know, worry about them again. Do you think much about what's going on in the brain when repetition occurs? Like, what is it that's making it
00:43:49
easier? If I', if I've been on a on a roll with the gym, I've been going for 60 days in a row. Why does it feel easier on day 61?
00:43:57
That's a tricky question because um if you were to talk to an academic and they would tell you like a habit is this
00:44:04
automatic non-concious behavior. Really quick simple things like brushing your teeth, tying your shoes, every time you
00:44:10
pick up a pair of barbecue tongs, you got to tap them together twice, you know, like stuff that you don't even really think about. Okay, that's actual
00:44:17
habitual behavior. But if I were to ask you, what are some habits you're trying to build? you would say, "I'm trying to
00:44:23
go to the gym four days a week or I'm trying to write every morning or I'm trying to meditate, you know, five days a week or whatever." And I know what you
00:44:29
mean when you say that. You mean I want it to be this routine, this practice that I do consistently. But like writing
00:44:36
every day is never going to be mindless the way that brushing your teeth is. You know, going to the gym is not going to be automatic the way that tying your
00:44:42
shoes might be. And so the things that we there's a little bit of sloppiness in the word habits and how we use it in
00:44:49
life. It's not they're not automatic mindless routines most of the time. Most of the things that we want to be habits
00:44:56
are not like reflexes. They're routines and rituals that we do consistently. So having said that, it is true that
00:45:03
after you've gone to the gym for a month or two, it does start to get easier. And I think there's a number of forces that kind of work in your favor there. One is
00:45:10
you figured a lot out about uh what it takes to get into the gym. What time am
00:45:15
I going? What route do I take? How do I pack my bag? Do I need to bring a water bottle or is there a water fountain at
00:45:20
the gym? Like all those sorts of things are little one-time costs that you got to figure out early on that once you're
00:45:26
into a pattern, you already know them. You know, the water bottle thing sounds like a small thing. I heard from someone who said, "I always forget to bring my
00:45:32
water bottle and they don't have water fountains at this gym." So like I I sometimes I skip the workout because of that. You know, it's like it's
00:45:38
remarkable how little friction it takes to pull us off course. Mhm. And so figuring out all of those things
00:45:43
is something that once you're a month or two in, you've crossed all you've, you know, you've fought all those battles and now you know how to do it. So that
00:45:50
makes it easier. The other thing is you start to build friendships, start to build connections, you start to know the people there, you feel comfortable
00:45:56
there. There's this concept Steven Presfield talks about where u you know if you have a wolf and it's roaming
00:46:02
around uh eventually it starts to feel like it has its territory and early on in a process a creative process writing
00:46:09
a book or whatever you go into the office the first time to write the first chapter of the book and you kind of feel uncomfortable it feels like it's not you
00:46:14
yet you go to the gym on the first day you feel like people are judging you do I look stupid I don't know how to do this but after a while it becomes your
00:46:22
territory it's just like the wolf it starts to feel like your home court and so That familiarity I think also makes
00:46:28
it much easier to stick to the habits, you know, once you start to feel comfortable there and that takes a little bit of time. And then the last
00:46:34
piece is identity. The more that you start to follow this habit, the more you
00:46:39
repeat a habit, the more you reinforce being that type of person, the more you start to have that element of your
00:46:44
story. I think this is one of the most important things for building habits and getting habits to stick, which is how
00:46:50
your habits reinforce your desired identity. We often start by asking what
00:46:55
do I wish to achieve? But I think what we really should start with is who do I wish to become? What are my actions
00:47:00
reinforcing? What are my actions taking me closer toward? In a sense, every action you take is like a vote for the
00:47:06
type of person you wish to become. So, no, doing one push-up does not transform
00:47:11
your body, but it does cast a vote for I'm the type of person who doesn't miss workouts. And no, writing one sentence
00:47:18
does not finish a novel, but it does cast a vote for I'm a writer. And no, sending one bit of positive feedback
00:47:23
does not make you like the world's best leader, but it does cast a vote for I'm the type of leader who cares about their teammates. And individually, those are
00:47:31
small things, but collectively you build up this body of evidence for being that kind of person.
00:47:36
It's a little bit different than what you often hear. Like you often hear people say something like um fake it till you make it.
00:47:42
And I don't necessarily have anything wrong with fake it till you make it. Like it's um asking you to believe something positive about yourself. But
00:47:49
behavior and beliefs are a two-way street. And so what you believe influences the actions you will take.
00:47:55
And the actions you take also influences what you will believe. And my encouragement, my suggestion is to start
00:48:02
with the action. To let the behavior lead the way. To make one sales call or meditate for one minute or do one
00:48:07
push-up and let that in that moment be evidence that you were that type of person. You know, if you go outside today and you shoot a basketball for
00:48:14
five minutes, you don't instantly think, "Oh, I'm a basketball player." But if you do it every day for next three
00:48:19
months or six months or a year, at some point you cross this invisible threshold where you have to admit, I guess playing
00:48:25
basketball is like kind of an important part of who I am. You know, I guess it's part of my identity. And once you adopt
00:48:30
a habit as part of your story, once it becomes part of how you see yourself, it's not just like I need to go for a
00:48:36
run. It's like I am a runner, you know, I go I do this because this is part of who I am. Then you'll fight to maintain
00:48:41
the habit, right? Like then then it becomes easier for it to stick. And so the connection between habits and identity I think is ultimately how you
00:48:48
really get habits to stick for the long run. It reminds me of a study I was reading recently that said if you speak to
00:48:54
someone in terms of giving them an identity versus
00:48:59
using a word as an adjective the behavior occurs. So an example would be if I you do something for me and I say
00:49:04
do you know what James you are a kind person in the studies people become more kind. But if I say that was kind
00:49:11
or that action was kind people are less kind. So if I if I can give you feedback
00:49:16
that embodies your identity, then you're more like likely for that behavior to occur. So with my team, and this is
00:49:21
maybe giving a bit of the game away, I will often refer to them as an identity. I will say you are an
00:49:27
innovator. You are an experimental because from the studies I've read that increases the probability that they embody that
00:49:33
identity. There's another study that um did it for voting. So people were more likely to go and vote if you said like I am a voter.
00:49:39
You got them to identify as I'm a voter rather than are you voting today? Um, and so same same thing. There's an
00:49:45
example in Atomic Habits I talk about. Imagine two people who are trying to quit smoking, you know, and so the first
00:49:50
person gets offered a cigarette and they say, "Oh, no thanks. I'm trying not to smoke." Um, and the second person gets offered and they say, "Oh, no thanks.
00:49:56
I'm not a smoker." And so the first person is trying to resist something that they still see themselves as, but
00:50:02
the second person no longer sees themselves as the type of person who smokes. And um yeah, some of the
00:50:08
evidence and research suggests that once you adopt those identities, it's it's easier for you to stick to the behavior. Reminds me of the research from Leon
00:50:15
Festinger, the guy that came up with the term cognitive dissonance. The way that I understand the concept of cognitive dissonance is that if I have a
00:50:21
perceived identity of myself and something external threatens that or challenges it, we're not good at living
00:50:27
in contradiction. I'm not good at So, for example, I'm a an accountant right now and I hear that AI is doing
00:50:34
accountancy work amazingly well. Now, I've invested 10 years in that accountancy degree. I see myself as a
00:50:39
great accountant. My my my sort of initial reaction will probably be to either dismiss my current
00:50:45
identity as a great accountant that that's going to have a great career in the future or to dismiss the AI. And he
00:50:52
talks, well, people that have studied his work talk about how we're very poor at being able to hold two contradictory
00:50:58
things to be true at the same time. So, um we tend to protect our identity. Yes. Um, there's something incredibly
00:51:04
powerful about this that also ties into habits, which is that a lot of our identity, not not the whole thing, but
00:51:10
large portions of our identity are tied to our relationships. You know, I'm a father, I'm a, you know, husband, I'm a,
00:51:16
you know, and so like it's the connection that we have with others. Our social bonds influence the picture that we have of ourselves.
00:51:23
This is something that widely influences our habits, you know. So, we are all part of multiple groups. Sometimes that
00:51:29
group is large, like what it means to be American or what it means to be British. Sometimes that group is small, like what it means to be a neighbor on your street
00:51:36
or a member of this family or a member at the local CrossFit gym. But all of the groups that you belong to, large and
00:51:42
small, have a set of shared expectations for how you act. Have a set of social norms for what you do in that group. And
00:51:50
when your habits go with the grain of the expectations of the group, they're pretty attractive. You know, like you
00:51:55
want to stick to them. You get praised and rewarded for it. You fit in. And when they go against the grain of the expectations of the group, they're kind
00:52:02
of unattractive. You get criticized and it doesn't feel good. And so if people have to choose between, I have habits
00:52:09
that um I want, but I'm cast out, I'm ostracized, I'm criticized, or I have
00:52:16
habits that I don't really love, but I fit in, I belong, I'm part of something. Most of the time, the desire to belong
00:52:23
overpowers the desire to improve. And so you want to do something different, but you also know you're going to be heavily
00:52:29
criticized for it or you're going to at least add friction to your relationships. And we don't want to live with that dissonance. That dissonance of
00:52:36
I could have this, but I also create friction here. One of the lessons I
00:52:41
think one of the big takeaways if you want to build better habits and get habits to stick particularly for the long run is you want to join groups
00:52:49
where your desired behavior is the normal behavior. join groups where you can rise together, where the people that
00:52:55
you're surrounded by have the type of habits that you want to have. It reminds me of this um this thing that
00:53:02
appeared in Jeff Bezos's shareholder letter about resisting the equilibrium. H I I didn't know about this. Go ahead.
00:53:08
So, in Jeff Bezos's shareholder letter, he writes to shareholders that when referring to Amazon's ability and desire
00:53:14
and need to innovate through the future, he says he makes a comparison to Richard Dawkins book called the I think it's a
00:53:20
blind clock maker. Uh yeah the yeah blind watchman blind watchman. Yeah yeah yeah yeah and
00:53:25
says that essentially all living organisms live in this constant battle to resist their equilibrium and actually death itself is when we become our
00:53:32
environment because right now me and you have huge amount of energy expenditure to be different from our environment in
00:53:38
terms of temperature in terms of acidity etc. And he he's making the comparison which sounded a lot what like what you
00:53:44
just said that if you want to that all living organisms are in this constant
00:53:49
battle to be different from our environment. Um and that the more
00:53:54
different our environment is the harder the fight. So if I go to the desert my body has to put put out even more energy
00:54:01
to be a different temperature to be a different sort of acidity than the environment. But if I want to make my
00:54:06
life easier and make that fight easier, then go into an environment where my environment is the same as my internal
00:54:12
my internal state. That's great. The I think that punchline of the more different your environment is from the habits that you want to
00:54:18
build or from whatever equilibrium you're trying to achieve, the harder you will have to fight to maintain.
00:54:23
And that is a fight that you can do for I don't know a day, a week, a month, but
00:54:29
it's some limited amount of time. At some point it just is draining to try to grind against the environment all the
00:54:35
time. Sometimes I view environment both physical and social almost like a form
00:54:41
of gravity. You know, like the the physical environment that we're in right now, okay, that's always nudging you in
00:54:48
certain directions. Like I'm I'm sitting in this chair right now talking to you. I could be sitting anywhere else, but I
00:54:53
would have to sit on the floor, right? The the environment of the chair is ushering me to this spot. It's almost like a form of gravity pulling me here
00:55:00
rather than getting me to go somewhere else. When we leave this room, if I wanted, I could try to do something
00:55:05
crazy and break through a wall or climb through the ceiling or whatever, but I'm going to go through the door because that's where the environment is
00:55:11
naturally nudging me toward. It's the where that behavior happens easily. And all of our spaces are like that. You're
00:55:17
always being kind of pulled toward what is natural and easy and consistent in that environment. So, how can you prime
00:55:23
your environment to make those the things you want to do? That's for physical environment. Social environment is the same. You know, it's all you're
00:55:29
always kind of being pulled toward what the behaviors are that are natural there. What are the social norms? What are the things that people get praised
00:55:36
and rewarded for? What are what is the culture typically calling you to do? And
00:55:41
that's where I think the answer is you want to surround yourself with groups who have the behaviors you want to have.
00:55:48
Join groups where your desired behavior is normal. If it's normal in that group, then you can rise together. So, I mean
00:55:54
that that must mean getting rid of certain people in one's life. And sometimes those people are hard to get rid of because their families, their
00:55:59
moms, their dads. Sure. And I, you know, I'm a little uh sometimes you hear people say things like, "Fire your friends," you know, or
00:56:06
whatever. Like, and I I I'm not I'm not all the way there. Uh I I think that yes, it is true. Sometimes you have um
00:56:13
an extreme circumstance where it's a particularly toxic person or something like that. And yeah, like you know, you probably maybe should not be around them
00:56:19
and that those can lead to very hard decisions. But I would say for the majority of life and the majority of your relationships, what we're really
00:56:26
talking about here is not getting rid of relationships. We're talking about finding specific places where that habit
00:56:32
can thrive. So here are some examples. There's a number of studies that have shown that it tends to be easier to
00:56:38
build a new habit in a new environment. So for example, if you Well, first let
00:56:43
me back up. There's an interesting way to define what a habit is, which is that it is a behavior that is tied to a
00:56:50
particular context. So, for example, your habit of watching Netflix might be
00:56:55
tied to the context of your couch at 7 p.m. And whenever you walk into your living room and you're by your couch and
00:57:01
it's in the evening, you're kind of naturally being pulled toward picking up the remote and doing that because that's the context the habit happens in. So, if
00:57:08
you want to build a new habit, and again, these studies have found that it tends to be easier to build a new habit
00:57:13
in a new environment. Well, let's say you want to start a habit of journaling. Well, you walk into your living room in
00:57:18
the evening and you sit down on the couch and you're like, I'm going to start journaling. But you're naturally, you know, your brain is kind of like,
00:57:23
well, it's time to pick up the remote and turn on the TV. That doesn't always mean that you need a brand new space,
00:57:29
like a new building or a new room to do every habit in. But you could do something like you could get a chair and
00:57:34
put it in the corner of the room and that becomes the journaling chair and the only thing that you do when you sit in that chair is you journal for five
00:57:40
minutes. So now you have a new context that is tied to the behavior that you
00:57:45
want to perform. And in the social sense, so this is what we were talking about previously. You want to be able to
00:57:50
create a space that is a safe place for that envir for that habit to live or for that habit to thrive. say um sometimes
00:57:58
there those spaces are ready made like uh let's say you want to do yoga four days a week but you look around your
00:58:04
family or your friends in your apartment that you're living nobody else is interested they don't want to do it too you do it in the living room you kind of
00:58:09
get made fun of or you're stepping on other people's space they're like I'm trying to do stuff in here too you know it's just kind of inconvenient well you
00:58:15
can go to a yoga studio and that's a place where for that hour you can be surrounded by a group where your desired
00:58:20
behavior is normal you don't have to fire any of your friends um and you can just go to the place where that happens that can thrive. And I think each habit
00:58:28
likes to have that. It likes to have somewhere where it can exist in a way that it's going to be supported or in a way where the environment makes it easy.
00:58:35
Sometimes the environment is readyade like that. Other times it's not. So for me, one of the most useful things that I
00:58:41
did in my entrepreneurial career, I had I had no entrepreneurs in my family, no authors. So I had this thing that I kind
00:58:48
of wanted to do, but I I didn't have anybody close to me that I could like look to. first six months that I was an
00:58:53
entrepreneur, I sent like 300 cold emails just to other people that were like a year or two ahead of me. Someone who seemed like you're actually doing
00:58:59
this thing where, you know, you've got this online audience and you're you're writing about stuff you like. Um maybe
00:59:06
30 people got back to me. I did like a little, you know, Zoom call or whatever and, you know, we chatted and connected
00:59:11
and then I met some of them at a conference like six months later. So I was six months in. I knew like maybe 10
00:59:16
people that I had met in person and I had like 30 that I had reached out to. So now it feels like okay at least I
00:59:23
know a couple people who have done this thing and I started hosting these retreats every once or twice a year I'd
00:59:28
get six or eight authors together and I'd say let's just rent an Airbnb. We'll split the cost and we can talk about how
00:59:33
to build an audience and how to grow your you know email list and how to write a book and launch it and you know
00:59:38
all the stuff that we were kind of focused on. It was almost always like the best six month uh best weekend of my
00:59:44
year. Um because I would have six months worth of stuff that I need to execute on after that was done.
00:59:50
That's kind of like going to a yoga studio for yoga, but you had to create the space. I was always worried that I
00:59:56
was going to look like some dork, you know, and like invite everybody and they would all say no or whatever. But everybody wants the same thing. You
01:00:02
know, they're all waiting for somebody to create the space for like-minded people to get together. So sometimes you need enough courage to create the space
01:00:08
yourself. But the punch line is the same, which is you're trying to surround yourself with people where your desired
01:00:14
behavior is the normal behavior. I've had so many founders speak to me
01:00:19
and say, "Why didn't this particular ad that I ran on this platform work for me?" Maybe the copy wasn't good. The
01:00:25
creative wasn't strong. But usually the problem is they're not having the right conversation because that ad never reached the right person. And if you're
01:00:31
in B2B marketing, that is much of the game. And this is where LinkedIn ads solves that problem for you. Their
01:00:37
targeting is ridiculously specific. You can target by job title, seniority, company size, industry, and even
01:00:44
someone's skill set. And their network includes over a billion professionals. About 130 million of them are decision
01:00:51
makers. So when you use LinkedIn ads, you're putting your brand in front of the right people. And LinkedIn ads also
01:00:56
drive the highest B2B return on ad spend across all ad networks in my experience. If you want to give them a try, head
01:01:03
over to linkedin.com/diary. And when you spend $250 on your first
01:01:08
LinkedIn ads campaign, you'll get an extra $250 credit from me for the next
01:01:14
one. That's linkedin.com/diary. Terms and conditions apply.
01:01:20
I'm thinking about all the people that um are currently sat in a in a job that they don't like. They're sat in the a
01:01:25
job in the middle of a big city. They're miserable. They want to go do something else. They want to go be an author. They want to go follow in your footsteps.
01:01:32
They want to build a business in a media business for example, but they're so far away from that. They're held in place by
01:01:38
their parents' expectations. They're held in place by a mortgage and all the things that you know, life when they get
01:01:44
home every day. They're tired. Really, really tired. So, it's remained a dream. You must have so many of those people
01:01:50
that write to you that message you um because of what you've you've produced and because of the the content that you
01:01:55
make. What do you say to those people? Where where does one one such person
01:02:02
start? One is I don't think it serves you in any way to just like kind of wallow in how hard it is or to talk about how
01:02:08
tough talking complaining about how hard it is just makes it harder, you know? So the the act of complaining makes a
01:02:15
bad situation worse. The act of emphasizing the things that are going well or trying to take it's kind of this
01:02:21
endless game of trying to take your current advantages and gain new advantages. So like early on most people
01:02:29
don't have many advantages. Like I didn't know anybody in the industry. I didn't have any money. I didn't have any experience. But the one advantage that I
01:02:35
did have was I had time. And so I could use that time to try to gain new advantages. So in my case, I used the
01:02:42
time to write two articles a week. And I did that for two years. I did like kind of freelance gigs on the side to pay the
01:02:48
bills and stuff. And eventually that's how I built the audience. And then once I had the audience two years later, then
01:02:54
I I had a new advantage, right? I not only had time, I also had an email list. Now I can go from there and I could get
01:02:59
a book deal and then I have a new advantage. I have a book deal and then you know you just kind of like continually use your current advantages
01:03:04
to gain new advantages. And um I just talked about this for about 20 seconds. That was about seven
01:03:10
years of my life that the span of all that, right? It goes it goes slower than what you want. But um it's kind of just
01:03:16
that that endless game. It goes slower than you would want. Makes me think about this whole uh idea
01:03:22
of being 1% better every day. Yeah. Yeah. What are the most sort of pertinent parts of of understanding that graph?
01:03:29
Two things stand out. All right. So, first is this is this charts showing what this is showing is if you get 1%
01:03:35
better each day for a year. Okay? So, 1.01 to the 365th power, you get 37
01:03:41
times better by the end of the year. Right? So, that's this curve. If you get 1% worse, 0.99 to the 3665th power, you
01:03:49
drive yourself almost all the way down zero. Now a chart like this is just compound interest, right? This is just a
01:03:55
compounding curve. And real life is not exactly like compound interest. You know, your habits are not exactly like
01:04:00
this mathematical formula. But I think this chart does a good job of encapsulating what the process of
01:04:06
behavior change feels like. You know what it's like to try to get a little bit better each day because two things
01:04:11
are true. These are the two things that stand out. First, any compounding curve, the hallmark of any compounding process
01:04:17
is all the greatest returns are delayed. Right? you are 80% of the way through this curve before it really starts to
01:04:23
take off. So all the greatest returns are delayed. The early stuff doesn't feel that impressive. The second is the
01:04:29
on day one the separation between 0.99 and 1.01 is very small, right? 1% better
01:04:36
or 1% worse is very minor. So on any given day, it's very easy to
01:04:42
dismiss, you know, what is the difference between eating something healthy for lunch or eating something unhealthy. Today, basically nothing.
01:04:48
Your body looks the same in the mirror at the end of the night. The scale hasn't changed. You know, there's no evidence. What is the difference between
01:04:54
the person who reads for 10 minutes today and the person who doesn't basically nothing to reading for 10
01:04:59
minutes does not make you a genius. But the person who always goes to bed a little bit smarter than they were when
01:05:05
they woke up. The person who always takes a little bit of time each day to learn something new. Yeah. Two or five or 10 years later, like that's a
01:05:11
meaningful difference in wisdom and insight. And so you see this same pattern again and again throughout life,
01:05:17
which is what starts out small and it's pretty insignificant, easy to dismiss on a daily basis, it compounds, it
01:05:24
multiplies, it improves over time. And so the effects of your habits are delayed. Time will magnify whatever you
01:05:31
feed it. So if you have good habits, time becomes your ally. And every day that goes by, you put yourself in a
01:05:36
stronger position. If you have bad habits, time becomes your enemy. And every day that goes by, you dig the hole
01:05:41
a little bit deeper. And so the real lesson of a chart like this, the real lesson of getting 1% better every day is
01:05:48
not to get wrapped up in the number. It's not like, oh, is it a 1% improvement or 1.6% or whatever. It's
01:05:54
not about that. It's an attitude. It's an approach. It's a focus, an emphasis
01:05:59
on trajectory rather than position. You know, there's a lot of discussion about position in life. How much money's
01:06:06
in my bank account? What's the number on the scale? What's the stock price? What are the quarterly earnings? We have all these measurements and metrics for
01:06:13
assessing our current position. And then if the position isn't what we want it to be, we get frustrated or we feel guilty
01:06:20
or we judge ourselves or we get annoyed or whatever. And what I'm encouraging is to say, listen, just for a minute, let's
01:06:26
stop worrying so much about our current position and instead focus a little bit more on our current trajectory. Am I
01:06:33
getting 1% better or 1% worse? Is the arrow pointed up and to the right or have we flatlined? So if you're on a
01:06:39
good trajectory, all you need is time. This is this has almost become a religious belief. I because I think for
01:06:46
everything you've said, it has to become a religious belief because the results are hard to see in the near term. But um
01:06:51
it is most certainly a religious belief in our team. I have multiple readers who got tattoos of it, which I was not expecting. I drew
01:06:57
this on an index card and now it's on somebody's body. Yeah, that was that was definitely
01:07:03
surprising. And it needs that religion because that first part where you you're
01:07:08
doing something and there's no progress, there's no evidence of progress. There is something tricky about this that I think is important. So we all we
01:07:15
all have made this mistake before which is you can make 1% improvements that accumulate and you can make 1%
01:07:21
improvements that evaporate. Right? You can spend your time time on trivial stuff meaningful. You know see it can be
01:07:26
meaningful small changes or it can be meaningless small changes. And so how do you decide the difference between the
01:07:32
two? That's kind of tricky and I I don't know that you can always get it perfectly right, but to me the dividing
01:07:38
line is does this action accumulate into something larger or not? You know, you can you can spend your time doing all
01:07:44
small stuff, whatever day in and day out, but are you building towards something bigger? And so, in a lot of ways, I think the
01:07:50
two time frames that matter most in life are 10 years and one hour. You know, 10 years is just shorthand for
01:07:57
like what's the big meaningful stuff you're working toward. You think about most of the stuff that people really care, the meaningful movements in life,
01:08:04
most of them are multi-year things, you know, build a business that you're proud of, raising a successful family, you
01:08:10
know, having a a happy marriage, getting in the best shape of your life, what whatever it is, contributing to some
01:08:15
cause that you care about, like they're usually big multi-year, sometimes multi-deade things. So 10 years is
01:08:21
shorthand for that. But if you can do one thing each day that's going to serve
01:08:26
you well in 10 years, if you can find one hour sometime today to do something that's going to pay off in a decade, you
01:08:32
usually don't even need to wait 10 years for it to really start to show up. You know, usually you get two or three or four years into that and you're like,
01:08:37
"Wow, I can't believe how this stuff's accumulating already." And it makes me think again about your idea of systems versus goals because the most
01:08:44
exceptional founders I know they'll think about what can I do in the next hour so that in 10 years time we're in a
01:08:49
different place which again it sounds I've said this a few times but one of the most important things in business I
01:08:55
mean the definition of the word company is hiring. So most I think all nearly all problems I face in business are a
01:09:00
people problem. It's like a people mistake that I have or haven't you know made yet. So the
01:09:06
further I've got in my career, I've started to think that actually most of my the next hour of my life should be
01:09:12
working on people because that corrects what happens in 10 years time. Like if we want to go want my company to go
01:09:18
public in 10 years time, in the next hour I should really be thinking about a hiring process which will find the CFO
01:09:23
which will build the business. And here you are talking to me, right? No, but I'm learning. But and I'm going to go take it out and I'm going to
01:09:29
go. No, but it's really it's really useful speaking to you about this because it's given me the wording to
01:09:36
which will create memorability which will create the repetitions and the habits if you know what I'm saying. Is it on straight? And I I wasn't thinking
01:09:42
in terms of systems and goals. I was I I always refer to it with people. I say what's furthest upstream.
01:09:47
Yeah. And this can also be what we're saying about sleep. And I I see hiring for example in business or actually
01:09:52
generally in your personal life selecting people as the single most important factor to everything that
01:09:58
happens downstream. Relationships in general are probably there it's obvious to everybody that
01:10:03
they matter and yet they still are probably perpetually undervalued. Yeah. So uh it's true in a business sense
01:10:09
which is what you're talking about here. Like almost every business problem at some level could be a people problem or there's a person who could unlock it and
01:10:15
solve that problem. It's true in a personal sense. the most important decision you probably will make is like
01:10:20
whether or who you get married to. Uh that you know that will dramatically shape your life. It's also true in like a just a luck
01:10:27
business life sense which is that there is no such thing as an opportunity
01:10:33
that is not tied to a person, right? Like opportunities come through people. And so when you say, "Oh, I wish I could
01:10:38
just like have some good luck or I wish I could like catch my lucky break." what you're probably talking about is there's a person who carries that opportunity
01:10:45
with them that you need to interface with or get to know and so in all of these ways relationships dramatically
01:10:51
shape our lives and uh yeah people people are probably the most important thing in that sense I think with with with age that becomes
01:10:59
more apparent for most people it becomes more most apparent that the best decisions I've made in my life were
01:11:04
people and the worst decisions I made in my life were also people but we don't think about that we think
01:11:09
I'll work Saturday and Sunday in the I I'll have some great idea. If I read a book, I'll have some great idea which will make me lucky and successful.
01:11:16
Whereas um with time, I realize that the smart work versus the hard work is focusing much more on on people. How how
01:11:23
do you how does your work dovetail into things like um self-esteem and confidence and because everybody wants
01:11:29
to build confidence and for some people they're in a bit of a downward reinforcing confidence spiral which I
01:11:35
guess would look something like this. you know, something happened in their life, so they're less likely to raise
01:11:40
their hand or to step outside of their zone zone of comfort. And even when and if they do, they interpret it
01:11:45
negatively, and that knocks their confidence. They see it, they're wearing sunglasses that interpret the things
01:11:51
that are happening as negative, and they're in this sort of downward compounding spiral. Mhm. And there's other people that seem to be
01:11:57
going the other way. First is um I had a high school basketball coach that told
01:12:02
me, "Confidence is just displayed ability." And what he meant was if you want to feel more confident about like
01:12:09
your ability to make a free throw, go out there and shoot for an hour and once you knock down 10 in a row, you're going to feel a lot better about it. And so
01:12:15
what you realize, this is true for everything, which is once you have started to display your ability in any
01:12:21
given area, you know, give a successful speech or, you know, make a nice presentation for work or whatever it is,
01:12:27
you feel better about it. And so what you realize is you need reps. You know, you need practice. Whatever the thing
01:12:33
is, you need you need enough repetition to start to learn how to do the thing. And so this is why sometimes I'll say
01:12:39
like motivation comes after starting, not before. We think we need motivation to get started, but in fact, you should
01:12:44
try to scale it down and make it so easy that you'll do it even if you don't feel that motivated about it and start get
01:12:50
some reps in and then once you've get got and then once you have performed the repetitions, you start to build up some
01:12:56
confidence because you know that you have some evidence that you can do it. So confidence is displayed ability. Let's try to scale it down, make it
01:13:02
easy, start to display our ability, and then the confidence comes as a side effect. The second thing though, and
01:13:07
this this might even be the more important piece. You mentioned this idea of someone who interprets things in a
01:13:12
negative frame. You know, they they get in the caught in this like downward spiral. They see like evidence of things working against them or the world is
01:13:19
tilted against them or like they're emphasizing the pieces of the story that aren't serving them that well. I had so I played baseball for a long time. I
01:13:25
played through college. Um, and when I was younger, uh, I was 10, 12, 14, after
01:13:30
each season, we would do this thing. My dad and I would go out and sit on the back deck and we would talk about like
01:13:36
the wins, the good parts of the of the, you know, the biggest games that our team won or like my best plays from the
01:13:41
year or just like things that I got better at from the season before. And I was never the best player on any team
01:13:47
that I was on. But you finish each season with a sense of positivity, a
01:13:52
sense of confidence, this feeling of like momentum going into the next year. And I think I played for a long time
01:13:58
partially because of that, you know, like we were it was a practice of emphasizing your wins. And so I think
01:14:06
that's an interesting thing that like more people should try is when you look back on your last year, what are some of
01:14:11
the wins that you've had? And try to use that, you know, tell yourself that story, emphasize that story and use that
01:14:16
to move into the next moment. I was talking recently. So, I have this I have this publishing company that I
01:14:22
co-founded, Author's Equity, and we're publishing this book from this guy named Brandon Webb, who is a former Navy Seal.
01:14:29
He uh trained the Navy Seal sniper unit in mental performance. And so, he he
01:14:35
would teach them all kinds of things. I was talking to him about the book and some of the strategies and I was trying to learn like what they would do. And
01:14:40
two things stood out to me. The first thing he said is a positive outlook no matter the scenario. So the first thing
01:14:45
we train them on is positive outlook no matter what situation or scenario they're in. The second thing is
01:14:50
visualizing things going well. Okay. So so one time a sniper came up to him and
01:14:56
said what's a good score on this uh course like they would give them these little courses to test like you know they have to make eight or 10 or 12
01:15:02
different shots or whatever. And he said a good score is 100%. And he was like now in reality almost nobody gets 100%.
01:15:09
Um, but I wanted to set that standard, right? To set that outcome in their mind as the thing that they were shooting
01:15:15
for. And he had two guys he was training. One of them got a 96, one of them got 100. Um, anyway, the point is
01:15:20
that in life, there are always things that go well and things that go poorly. There
01:15:26
will always be days that things are stacked against you and days when things seem to go your way. And the question
01:15:31
is, which story are you telling yourself? You know, which version of the events are you emphasizing? Now, I'm not
01:15:37
suggesting that you should like ignore reality. You know, if there's a problem that needs to be addressed, then you still need to address it. But as long as
01:15:43
you're not re ignoring reality, I feel like the only thing that makes sense is to emphasize the empowering version. You
01:15:50
know, to emphasize the wins, to sit down and reflect on what you've done and think about what the wins were and how that feeds into your momentum going
01:15:56
forward and to visualize the next step and how it's going to go well. It reminds me of um something Sir David
01:16:02
Brford said to me who I know is the prominent in the first chapter of your book. Um he was talking a lot about 1% gains
01:16:08
etc. And he says the thing that he doesn't get to talk about enough is the psychological momentum that's created
01:16:14
from accomplishing these 1% gains and celebrating them amongst the team. He said to me that when he was in the
01:16:20
British cycling team and he went into there and they were down and out and depressed and kind of being ridiculed for being this terrible team. He goes,
01:16:26
"We started, you know, stacking up the 1%s, etc." And the crazy thing that happened is we started to quote feel
01:16:32
like we were going somewhere and people stopped leaving the bike shop at 5:00 p.m. and started staying till 2:00 a.m.
01:16:39
because they felt like they were going somewhere. It dovetails into your point about progress, but also just the power
01:16:44
of being intentional about um celebrating those wins and the psychological momentum it creates in a
01:16:50
group of people and yourself. That's great. I think you do need to be a little bit more intentional about it in the real world. So if you look if you
01:16:56
look at some of the most habit forming technologies or some of the most habit forming things like let's take video games for example in a video game there
01:17:04
are continual constant forms of progress. So your score is increasing in
01:17:09
like the top corner of the screen whenever you pick up a weapon or a ruby or a gem or whatever it's like a little jingle or chime or some musical note.
01:17:16
Even the pitterpatter of footsteps as you like run through the level is a signal that you're making progress that
01:17:21
you're moving forward that you're going somewhere. And so if you compare all of that immediate feedback that you're
01:17:27
getting like all in the same moment when you're playing this level and then you walk outside and you think
01:17:32
about most of the things you're working on in real life, you're like this committee's been meeting every Friday for six months. We still haven't shipped
01:17:38
this feature, you know, like I've been running every day for the last month and I still don't see a change in my body. And so it's very hard to compare the
01:17:46
digital world and all the progress that we get there through our screens to the physical world and the habits that we're
01:17:51
trying to build and foster in our lives and businesses. And I think that's one reason why it is nice to be more intentional about it to
01:17:58
try to think about what are the 1% improvements or the small gains that we can make today and then celebrating
01:18:03
those wins so that you have some feeling of progress there because in the real world progress is often delayed. You
01:18:10
know, my parents like to swim. Well, if they were swimming for the change that they're going to see in their body, it
01:18:16
takes two years, you know, like they the problem is they jump into the water and their body looks exactly the same when they get out, right? And so, you need
01:18:23
something in the moment that gives you some signal of progress. They use a habit tracker. So, they have like a
01:18:28
little template where they just put a little X on that day. But, you need something that visualizes your progress,
01:18:34
that gives you some signal that you're moving forward. I was reminded then of the Harvard Business Review did the study where they asked people what their
01:18:39
best day in work was and they asked them to keep work diaries. I think it was about a thousand people and the majority of people pointed at a day in their work
01:18:45
diary in that week where they had a feeling of progress even if it was tiny as and this goes to your point about making it fun as well. So highlighting
01:18:52
one's progress and celebrating it makes it fun but also that psychological momentum. And then also you can do this stuff you can do the 1% better every
01:18:59
day. you put yourself in a position to experience the feeling of progress if
01:19:04
you scale your habits down. So let's say sometimes there in chemistry there's this com um there's this concept of
01:19:09
activation energy how much energy it takes to activate a reaction. So you know if the activation energy is
01:19:15
high you have to put a lot of heat or a lot of energy into the reaction to make it occur. I think habits kind of have an
01:19:21
activation energy too. So like let's say that your habit is to do a 100 push-ups a day. the activation energy for that's
01:19:28
kind of high on the first day when you're really pumped about it. Maybe you're doing sets of 10 all throughout the day and you get to 100 and you feel
01:19:34
really good. Maybe you can do that for a couple days or a week or whatever, you know. Um but at some point you get to a
01:19:40
day where you're tired or you had a lot to do at work or whatever and then you turn around it's 9:30 and you're like, I need to go to bed soon. Do I feel like
01:19:46
doing 100 push-ups? Um and then you skip it. But if you're something much smaller, like your goal is to do one
01:19:52
push-up or 10 push-ups, well, that is a lot easier and the activation energy is much lower. And so then you get to that
01:19:58
day eight or nine or 10 days in when it's 9:30, you can still do 10 push-ups before you go to bed, right? And so you
01:20:05
still get the feeling of progress. You still get the feeling that you're moving forward simply because you set the bar
01:20:10
lower to start. You know, if the bar is perfect at the beginning, it's really hard to maintain that for very long. But
01:20:17
if the bar is getting you in now, you build momentum and you get the feeling of progress and you get a month or two
01:20:22
months or three months in and you still have a streak going and you feel pretty good about yourself. And at some point
01:20:28
you start doing it enough that you realize, okay, there will probably be a day in here where I miss, but I still
01:20:34
feel good about who I am and how much I've shown up here and like you've proven a lot to yourself. And so I I
01:20:39
think sometimes scaling it down and making it easy gives yourself a better opportunity to feel progress. two words
01:20:46
you said in in the last couple of minutes. One of them was your parents use a habit tracker and the other one was use the word streak.
01:20:51
Yeah. Do you understand the context of this jar that was in front of me with with paper clips? Could you explain to me
01:20:56
habit tracking and streaks and why why they matter? So when I was working on atomic habits, I came across this guy named Trent
01:21:02
Durstman and he was uh he had an interesting story. He's an entrepreneur now, but early in his career um he had
01:21:10
this job where he was a stock broker in Abbottzford, Canada. and Abbottzford, this is like in the '90s time was like
01:21:15
pretty small town, like it it wasn't, you know, some big uh city. And he was
01:21:21
supposed to just drive more business, but like, you know, they didn't have a lot of advantages. It wasn't like he was in New York or whatever. He had this one
01:21:27
simple habit that he used to end up becoming the top performer in the firm
01:21:32
and building the biggest book of business there over like the next couple years. And it was this simple strategy
01:21:37
of paper clips. So all he did, a lot of his stockbroker friends who were like also working in this job, they would
01:21:44
read analyst reports, they would look at the news, they would try to analyze company's financial statements. They
01:21:49
were doing all this other stuff. And he said, "I'm not going to do that. All I'm going to do is I'm going to make a sales call and
01:21:55
whenever I make a call, see how tight anybody put these on. Um, whenever whenever I make a call, I'm going to
01:22:01
make a sales call and then I'm going to take one paperclip and I'm going to move it over. And then I'm going to make
01:22:06
another sales call. I'm going to take another paper clip and move it over. And he had a hundred paper clips in the jar.
01:22:12
And his goal every day was to move a hundred from one jar to the next. And that was all he did. And with that one
01:22:18
simple habit, he ended up building this huge book of business. Two things about this. One, obviously, he has a visual
01:22:25
marker of the progress that he's making, right? So moving paper clips to the other jar is a way to see that he's
01:22:31
progressing throughout the day. It also makes it a little bit into like a little game, you know? It's like, okay, how how
01:22:36
quickly can I move the paper clips over? How much, you know, progress am I making? Do I have 50 over by the time lunch rolls around? You know, you can
01:22:42
start to see how you you have a little bit of a uh this these progressive markers throughout the day.
01:22:47
But the other thing that I think is interesting about it is he boiled it down to just what was the one thing that really moved the needle, you know, and
01:22:54
he just focused on that. And there are so many things in life that it's really easy to get focused on the optimization.
01:23:00
It's so if you are so focused on finding the perfect sales strategy, the best business plan, the ideal diet to follow,
01:23:08
you're so focused on optimizing, you're like, "Okay, how about sometimes people will come to me and they'll say they want to build an audience and they like
01:23:13
ask about all the tactics and the strategies and I say just write an article every week for the next two
01:23:19
years and then get back to me like that. Let's not skip that part. Can we start let's start there or like let's not miss
01:23:24
a workout for two years and then like we can talk about whether the program is working or not, you know?" And it's like
01:23:29
that. So I think this helps you focus on what is the big thing that's really moving the the needle.
01:23:35
I was thinking it about it through the frame of the habit cycle as well because as I look at this habit cycle I'm seeing
01:23:41
reward being hit. I'm seeing uh a desire for an outcome as well.
01:23:46
Yeah. Yeah. This is interesting. So there um we haven't talked about this yet so let me just break it down real quick. So if you're building a habit
01:23:52
there are roughly four different stages that every habit goes through. So I call them in the book in atomic habits I call them Q, craving, response and reward.
01:23:59
Right? So the Q is just something that you notice. So let's say for example you see a plate of cookies on the counter in the kitchen. That's a visual cue. The
01:24:07
craving is the prediction that your brain makes about what that Q means. So you see the plate of cookies, your brain
01:24:12
predicts, oh that'll be sweet, sugary, tasty, enjoyable. So that favorable prediction motivates you to take the
01:24:18
response. That's the third step. You walk over, pick it up, and take a bite. And then finally, the fourth step is the
01:24:24
reward. Oh, it is in fact sweet, sugary, tasty, enjoyable. So, Q, craving, response, reward.
01:24:31
These steps are basically what every habitual behavior is going through. Even even really automatic stuff like let's
01:24:37
say you walk into a room and the lights are off. So, Q, it's dark. Craving, I
01:24:42
want to be able to see. Response, I flip on the light switch. Reward, the lights come on. Now, it's it's visible out
01:24:48
there. So even really fast stuff like turning on a light switch is going through those four steps. So pretty much
01:24:54
every habit follows that cycle. And you can see that you know this uh paperclip strategy does kind of play into this a
01:25:00
little bit. Q you have the paper clips on the desk, right? So like not only do you want to make the sales calls for a
01:25:05
business standpoint, but you also have these staring at you every morning when you come into your desk. And so it's a little bit of a visual reminder, reminds
01:25:11
you, prompts you to think, okay, all right, I do want to make these calls and try to drive more business or, you know, build build up the um make another
01:25:18
successful sales call. That craving gets you to pick up the phone, the actual response. And then the reward is I get
01:25:23
to move the paperclip over and now I feel like yeah, you get the little ting jingle in your ear of the paperclip
01:25:29
hitting and you know, it just get it adds to the reward effect. What I think
01:25:34
is most interesting is how do we take this how do we take these four steps that basically all behaviors go through
01:25:40
and then translate it into something that we can use and apply in daily life and work. So I call this the four laws
01:25:47
of behavior change. So there's one for there's one for each step. Yeah, you got them right here. I'll give them to you.
01:25:54
So I call these the four laws of behavior change, right? So for the Q, the first law is you want to make it
01:25:59
obvious. All right? You want the cues. You want the cues of your good habits to be obvious, available, visible, easy to
01:26:06
see. Easier it is to see or get your attention, the more likely you are to act on it. So, a lot of that's about
01:26:11
environment. It's about making things obvious, but it's the Q gets your attention, something you notice. So, let's put this in the context of me
01:26:18
wanting to make sure I have my supplement routine every day. Sure. Because that's something I think about. Yeah. I want to have my creatine every day.
01:26:23
So, it's like, where's the creatine in the kitchen? you know, is it is it tucked up in a high shelf and it's behind like a cabinet door and you don't
01:26:29
really see it or is it like out on the counter? It's one of the first things that you see. So there, you know, there are varying degrees of what you want to
01:26:35
do here and like what you want to place out, but you're just trying to make the good habit obvious. You want to make it easy to notice. Reminds me of when I
01:26:41
started DJing and the DJing equipment was upstairs in the spare room out the way and I had a conversation with my girlfriend who's through there and I was
01:26:47
like, I really want to learn DJing. So, can I put it on the kitchen counter for the next year? Because then I'll be walking past one
01:26:53
day and go, "Oh, DJ." you know, and then I put it on the kitchen counter and I started DJing. I have a a reader who he would go to his
01:26:58
guitar lessons and he would practice with his teacher and then he'd give him some homework to practice certain scales or whatever and then he would come back
01:27:05
and he would take his guitar, put it in the case at the end of each um at the end of each session and put it in the
01:27:11
closet. Well, he'd forget it was there for a week and then, you know, the next week would roll around. He'd pick it out and go to practice and he'd be like,
01:27:16
"You weren't, you know, you didn't do this throughout the week." So, he bought a guitar stand and put it in the center of the living room. Now he passes it 30
01:27:23
times a day. Much more likely to pick it up and play for 5 minutes. So it's just making making your habits obvious. The
01:27:29
second law is about the craving and it's all about making it attractive. And this is where um I mentioned earlier like
01:27:35
that question of what would this look like if it was fun. You want your habits to be fun, compelling, attractive,
01:27:40
interesting to you. And the more engaging or exciting it is, the more likely you are to stick with it. So, like I had one woman who she wanted to
01:27:48
stop going out to eat for lunch at work every day and start bringing her lunch in because she felt like it would be healthier, but the idea of making like a
01:27:55
salad for lunch wasn't that exciting to her. So, she came up with this phrase of a party in a bowl. And so, she in the
01:28:01
beginning she would do all kinds of stuff. She would like take potato chips and crumble them up and put them in there or she would like chop up Snickers
01:28:07
bars and put them in with the salad or whatever. She was just trying to find a way to make it fun. And then once she
01:28:12
was already bringing lunch in every day, you know, after she did this for a month or so, then she was like, "All right, I'm in the habit of bringing lunch in.
01:28:18
How can I start to make lunch healthier?" So, find a way to make your habit attractive. The third law is to make it easy. This
01:28:26
is all about making it simple, frictionless, easy to do. The more convenient or frictionless your habits
01:28:32
are, the more likely they are to occur. We've talked about this a lot already, but it's, you know, scaling your habits down. It's using the two-minute rule to
01:28:39
make it, you know, as easy as you can. But the easier a habit is to perform, the more likely it is to happen. Daniel
01:28:45
Conorman, the famous psychologist, I think he once said that if you were to boil behavior down to like a single
01:28:51
principle, a single thing that drives human behavior, it's convenience. It's ease. You know, what is the what is the
01:28:56
easy thing to do? We are biological organisms and we expend energy to live.
01:29:02
And it is in your best interest to try to conserve energy whenever you can. And so the more your brain is wired for it,
01:29:08
you're always looking for it. In fact, many of the largest businesses in the world basically just take a human desire
01:29:15
that we already want to do and try to make it even more convenient. Like Door Dash is just like, you need food, just
01:29:21
tap a couple times with your thumb and we'll give it to you. I mean, in fact, the whole arc of human history and how
01:29:26
we get food is just been one long path of making it more and more convenient. It used to be that we were hunter
01:29:32
gathers and had to kill our food or forage for berries in the bush. And then we started growing it so it was right
01:29:37
next to our house and we didn't have to move. We could just harvest the corn or the beans or whatever and eat it. And then we started just shipping it to
01:29:44
grocery stores. Now you don't even have to grow it yourself. You'll just come over here and you can buy it and take it home. And then we said, "Forget it. You
01:29:50
don't even need to drive to the grocery store anymore. We'll just deliver it through Instacart or grocery delivery or whatever." And now we say, "You don't
01:29:57
even have to cook it in your own house anymore. We'll just you can just order it on Door Dash. You just tap with your thumb and we'll bring it readymade to
01:30:02
you right here and you can just eat it. It's all just one continual long arc of making it easier and easier. And the
01:30:09
more that you can make your habits more convenient, the more likely it is that you're going to stick to it and and follow through.
01:30:15
And then the fourth and final law is to make it satisfying. The more satisfying your habits are, the more likely you are
01:30:21
to stick to them in the future and return to them again. The first three laws, make it obvious, make it
01:30:27
attractive, and make it easy, are all about making your habit more likely to
01:30:34
occur this time. Mhm. Make it satisfying is about increasing the odds that you do it next time.
01:30:41
Because by the time you get to this step, the habit's already occurred, right? It's already over now. But was it rewarding or not? Was it beneficial or
01:30:47
not? Did it serve you in some way? If it serves you, if you feel like it benefits you somehow, that marks the experience
01:30:54
in your brain and says, "Hey, this was useful. Let's come back to this next time." Next time you're in a similar
01:31:00
situation, let's repeat this again. And so, make it satisfying. The reward is
01:31:05
kind of it closes the feedback loop of learning. You know, it increases the odds that you're going to follow through
01:31:10
on it. And I use that word learning intentionally. We're talking about building habits, but in a way, what
01:31:17
we're really talking about is the process of learning. It's the process of how your brain and body learn what to do
01:31:22
as you go through life. You know, you go throughout life and you experience different things and you come across
01:31:28
different strategies and you try them out. You know that at some point there's the first time that you take a bite of a
01:31:33
pancake and then you're like, "Oh, that's kind of tasty. Maybe I should take another bite." And other times you try things and you're like, "I don't
01:31:39
really like that that much." Or it didn't really do anything. It was kind of neutral. and your brain's like, "Well, maybe try something different next time." So, the behaviors that are
01:31:45
rewarded, the behaviors that are satisfying, the behaviors that are enjoy enjoyable are likely to stick. And I
01:31:51
guess there's lots of different ways one can make it rewarding. I was thinking about our fitness group, which we have on WhatsApp, where it's called Fitness
01:31:58
Blockchain, and every month, one person is evicted. Every day that you go to the gym, you take a screenshot of your workout and drop it in there. And then
01:32:04
someone who's like a a freelance data science person just kind of compiles it
01:32:09
all into a document and send screenshots every day with our combined workouts. The whole game is consistency. So it doesn't matter how hard you worked. It's
01:32:14
just like did you go and that has kind of made I don't know where that appears on this cycle, but I think of it as like
01:32:20
accountability. It also makes it fun. Um but where is that sort of social pact element on this cycle? Is that the part
01:32:26
of the reward of it? I think it influences all of the behaviors, you know. So the fact that you see other people working out is a
01:32:32
cue, right? So like you might get a text of somebody else's screenshot phone. You're like, "Oh, yeah, I need to get my workout in today. I
01:32:38
don't want to forget." So that's a cue that triggers the behavior. There's something attractive about being part of it as a group. You know that
01:32:44
once you post your screenshot that other people are going to see it and like you might get kind of rewarded for it or
01:32:50
like you did your thing. So that's kind of exciting and feels motivating that like motivates you to show up and do it.
01:32:56
Um sometimes you may work out with somebody, right? And so that like that there's something there that's improving the
01:33:01
response. It's more it's more fun to do it together, but it also gets you moving. And then finally, there's the reward of, you know, sticking to the
01:33:08
streak or being part of it or not getting we get the rewards. We actually there's actually a big metal belt, a physical belt every that's handed out every year,
01:33:14
but every week there's, you know, every month there's a winner that get gets the display picture as their face. And I want the belt. That sounds cool.
01:33:21
It's got my name engraved in it. It's like a wrestling belt. That's awesome. How does this work if you're trying to break a habit? So for each of these
01:33:29
there are there are many ways to do each of these things. You know there's many ways to make habits obvious. There are
01:33:35
many ways to make them attractive and so on. And what I'm giving you is just kind of the overview of how to build a good
01:33:41
habit or how to install a new behavior. If you want to break a bad habit then
01:33:46
you just invert these four. So rather than making it obvious make it invisible. Okay? Unsubscribe from emails. Don't keep junk
01:33:53
food in the house. Reduce exposure to the queue. Rather than making it attractive, make it unattractive. That's
01:33:58
the hardest one. We can talk about that in a second. Rather than making it easy, make it difficult. So, increase
01:34:03
friction, add steps between you and the behavior. I find like here's two examples for me. I've tried this new
01:34:09
thing where I keep my phone in another room until lunch each day. So, usually it's like 9 to 11 or so in the morning.
01:34:17
My phone is down the hall. It's in a different room and I'm in my office. And it's just a chance for me to work on my
01:34:23
own priorities rather than whatever's, you know, coming in through the phone. I'm like everybody else. If my phone is right next to me, I will check it every
01:34:29
3 minutes just because it's there. But if it's down the hall, it's only 30 seconds away, but I never go get it. And
01:34:35
I always think that's interesting. You know, it's like, did I want it or not? In the one sense, I wanted it badly
01:34:40
enough that I would check it every 3 minutes when it was right by me, but I never wanted it so bad that I'd go work 30 seconds to go get it.
01:34:47
And I found that a lot of habits are like that. if you just introduce a little bit of friction, they kind of curtail themselves to the desired
01:34:53
degree. So, beer is another one. I I don't think this would work if you like, you know, actually have an addiction or
01:34:59
something. But, I've noticed that if I get like a six-ack of beer and I put it in the front of the fridge and I open it up and it's like right there and I can
01:35:05
see it. I'll have one at dinner just cuz it's there. But, if I put it like on the lowest shelf in the fridge, like all the way in the back, I kind of got to bend
01:35:11
down to even see it. Sometimes I'll forget. I'll have it. It'll be there for two weeks. I won't even remember that it's in there. Um, and so I think that's
01:35:19
all about like, you know, inversion of the first law, make it invisible, and inversion of the third law, make it difficult. The the less likely you are
01:35:25
to see it, the harder it is to do, the more steps that are involved, the less likely it is to occur. And then the final piece is the inversion of the last
01:35:32
law, which is rather than making it satisfying, make it unsatisfying. So layer on some kind of cost or a
01:35:37
consequence. And I in atomic habits, I call this the cardinal rule of behavior change. It's like so pervasive of a
01:35:43
teacher, which is behaviors that get immediately rewarded get repeated. And
01:35:49
behaviors that get immediately punished get avoided. And so obvious, but you
01:35:54
have to ask yourself, do you have a good feeling when you do the thing that you're you want to do, the habit that you want to build? Are you getting
01:36:00
immediately rewarded for that? And if you have a habit you're trying to avoid, what is the cost? What is the consequence? Is there something that you
01:36:06
know feels like a punishment there? If so, then you're more likely to avoid it. If not, it gets tricky.
01:36:12
It's hard, isn't it, with like there's cookies on the counter out there. You might have noticed them as you walked in that you've got them on a little plate. Loads of No, but I'm going to grab one on the way
01:36:18
out. But but I was just thinking about that like if I have the cookie now, I'm not going to get an immediate punishment.
01:36:25
The only sort of immediate punishment is a bit of guilt that I might start to feel that I'm now one step further away
01:36:30
from the goals that I've set myself in terms of fitness. Is there any way to bring forward the the punishment in
01:36:36
areas not the punishment but the the lack the downside yeah the cost of your good habits is in
01:36:43
the present the cost of your bad habits is in the future and so for a lot of your quote unquote bad habits it feels
01:36:50
good in the moment you know like eating a donut feels great now playing the video game feels great now doing you know whatever like it's only later that
01:36:57
you realize oh there was a cost associated with this even something like the classic bad habit of smoking Maybe
01:37:02
you get to stand with friends outside and socialize or maybe you reduce stress in the moment after a long day of work. It's only, you know, five or 10 or 20
01:37:09
years later that you have this consequence. So, um, a lot of the game
01:37:15
of building better habits is finding ways to pull the rewards of your good habits into the present moment so you
01:37:21
feel good now. You don't have to wait three years for it to happen. M and pulling the consequences of your bad
01:37:27
habits into the present moment so that you feel a little bit of the pain right now and you realize this isn't actually serving me.
01:37:33
Which I guess is why they put the uh the photos of people's lungs on the cigarette packets. That's yeah like one of the things it's
01:37:38
trying to do right. What about this um habit scorecard over there? Is that what your parents use with for swimming?
01:37:44
So the habit scorecard just a this is just a simple like assessment. The insight behind this practice is that
01:37:50
intentional behavior change starts with self-awareness, right? So you will you
01:37:56
will change your habits all the time whether you think about them or not. You're you're building habits whether you focus on it or whatever. Like your
01:38:02
your brain and body is built for it. Now the more interesting question is can you design your behavior? Can you shape your
01:38:09
habits in the way that you want? And that's where self-awareness comes in. It's very hard to shape your habits without being aware of them. And so
01:38:16
there have actually been some studies that have found that just the act of becoming more aware of a behavior will
01:38:21
change it on its own. For example, there was one study that looked at people who journaled about their they created food journals for what they were eating. No
01:38:28
tracking of anything. There's no they were not on a diet. They're not trying to eat certain way. They don't care about how many calories you have.
01:38:34
There's no tracking or anything. All they did was simply write down what they ate each day. And just the act of
01:38:39
journaling about it changed what people ate and reduced the the number of calories that they had and so on just
01:38:46
because they were aware of what was happening. Um and so this is true for most habits which is
01:38:52
once you start to notice them then you start to notice ways that you could improve them or ways that you could refine them or ways that maybe you want
01:38:58
to do things differently. You're not operating as on autopilot in quite the same way. So the habit scorecard is just
01:39:03
a simple way to do this. It's very it's very simple. You just write down all the habits that you're doing each day. So you can start usually there's like a
01:39:10
package of behaviors in the beginning and maybe around lunch and then like a power down routine at the end of the day. But you know it could be something
01:39:15
like wake up, drink a glass of water, take a shower, you know, check my phone, get dressed, whatever. Like you just,
01:39:21
you know, go through the list of what your normal day looks like. And then once you have the behaviors written down, you give them a score. And the
01:39:27
score is just uh if it's a good habit or a habit that you like that's contributing to your life, you put a plus sign. If you it's a habit that you
01:39:33
feel like you want to get rid of. Um like maybe say I wake up and then I scroll on my phone for 10 minutes before
01:39:38
I get out of bed. You're like, well, do I really want to be doing that? Maybe not. I'll give a minus sign. And then some stuff's just neutral, you know,
01:39:44
like get dressed, you know, sure, whatever. Just put a put an equal sign. And the idea is not to judge yourself
01:39:51
for it. It's more like sometimes I tell people it's almost like imagine when you like go to the zoo and you like, you know, look at the lions and you're like,
01:39:56
"Oh, wow. How interesting that they would do that." You kind of like do that with yourself and you're like, "Oh, how interesting that I spend my time that
01:40:01
you know, you're not like trying to judge yourself or analyze it. It's just let me see what I'm actually spending my time on. And then once you have that
01:40:08
list, I think the and this is like later in the book, but there's um it becomes very useful for building habit stacks
01:40:15
for for layering your new habits on top of the things that you're already doing. And so some of it self-awareness, some
01:40:21
of it is priming for habit stacking. Habit stacking. Yeah. What is a habit stacking?
01:40:27
Look at this. I like these props. This is great. All right. So, first let me let me uh just unpack the idea. Habit
01:40:34
stacking is this concept that came from Stanford professors named BJ Fog. And his insight, which I think is great, is
01:40:41
that it's easier to build a new habit if you layer it or stack it on top of an an
01:40:47
old habit, a habit you're already doing. Um he calls it the tiny habits recipe, I think. But it's the insight is just that
01:40:54
we all have habits that we're performing each day and those can become anchors.
01:40:59
they can become cues that prompt the new behaviors that we're going to perform. So let's say that your current habit is
01:41:05
you make a cup of coffee, right? So you're already doing this. You're going to start each day. You're going to make a cup of coffee. And the new habit that
01:41:11
you want to build is you want to start meditating. So then you could say, "All right, after I make my morning cup of
01:41:17
coffee, I will meditate for 60 seconds." So that this is just like a basic habit stack, right? So you start you start
01:41:23
with coffee and then you meditate after. Now, once you get good at this, you can start to chain them together. So, for example, you could say after I make my
01:41:30
morning cup of coffee, I will write my to-do uh I will meditate for 60 seconds and then I will write my to-do list for
01:41:35
the day. After I write my to-do list for the day, I will prioritize them and start working on, you know, my first
01:41:41
task or whatever. And now you have this little stack that you do the same way each morning each time. And it just is a
01:41:46
way to like build simple momentum and get you in. I have I've got readers who have made like all kinds of habit
01:41:52
stacks. The one of the funny ones that I remember is one guy um he was really into working out and he was always
01:41:57
drinking protein shakes, but he his finances were kind of a mess. And so anytime that he would make a protein
01:42:03
shake, he would like check his finances and check his budget for the day. He would like when I make a protein shake, I fill out my daily budget. That was
01:42:10
like his habit stack. Um but you can do it for anything, right? And the idea is that you want to find a good place for
01:42:18
this new habit to live. You know, sometimes like let's say let's take the meditation example.
01:42:24
As a general rule, as a as a very broadstroke rule, it tends to be better to do habits earlier in the day rather
01:42:30
than later because the later it gets in the day, the the less your day is under your control, right? Like more things
01:42:37
interrupt. There's just, you know, you run lower on time, lower on energy, and so on. So I Yeah, I like in general, I like the
01:42:43
idea of maybe doing meditation in the morning. So you make your cup of coffee and then you meditate. But if you have
01:42:48
like three little toddlers that you're chasing around, you're trying to get pants on your kids, then maybe that's not a good time to meditate, right? It's
01:42:54
not it's not a good space for that habit to live. So, I think once you've done that habit scorecard and you have like
01:43:00
all of your normal habits laid out there, you can start to think about the new habit that you want to build and look at that list and then say, "Okay,
01:43:06
what's the appropriate place to insert this this new habit? Where should that new habit stack live? What's a good
01:43:12
trigger for that new behavior to occur?" And so you create these little stacks and then it just eventually it doesn't
01:43:18
take that long but eventually you get used to just doing in the same order each time. You know like I have one woman who she's like every day I walk
01:43:24
into my office, I hang up my purse, I hang up my jacket, I go fill up my water bottle, I sit down the desk and I answer
01:43:29
the first email and that's like she just does that sequence every time she comes in. I have one I think that's kind of related which is um and this sounds very
01:43:35
strange to people think I'm weird but whatever. um is I wanted to learn how to meditate, but in my day, the way that my
01:43:41
day was currently constructed, there was no great opportunity where I'm alone for
01:43:46
like 10 to 20 minutes and I'm uninterrupted and I'm and I'm in that position. And so what I started doing is
01:43:53
I started meditating in the shower. I'm there anyway getting clean. So it's great. It's private, not long showers.
01:44:00
Yeah, long showers. My girlfriend's like, "What the [ __ ] is going on in there sat on the floor?" Um, but no, I
01:44:06
started just meditating in the shower and it was it was really it was in the morning alone. I'm going to do it anyway.
01:44:12
Mh. So, that really helped for me. And then when that started to stick and I started to get a bit of progress and see the
01:44:17
benefits, I can move out of the shower, per se. That's great. I had uh you're reminding me I had a woman who came up to me after
01:44:23
a talk one time and told me that uh she when she brushes she wanted to work on her balance. She's getting older. is
01:44:28
getting into her 60s and she said um any each day when I brush my teeth I brush
01:44:34
on one leg and I do like 10 like little kind of half squats on that leg and then I switch to the other leg and I do 10
01:44:40
more on that and she was like I'm my balance is better my legs are stronger and my teeth are very clean
01:44:46
takes a while but yeah you can pair it up in all kinds of ways. On that point of um doing things in the morning and
01:44:51
generally having less energy later in the day, do you do you think much about h how to manage your own energy? It's I
01:44:58
spoke to Dr. Lisa Feldman who's a neuroscientist who came up with this concept of like the the body budget that
01:45:04
we have this finite amount of energy. And since then it's really had a big impact on me because I start in so many
01:45:09
ways that we've talked about. One of which is I try I try to not try and take on too much because if in a world where
01:45:14
my energy on a daily basis is finite I don't want to get to the end of my body budget but also the order of things like
01:45:21
do I put my most important tasks today at the beginning of the day etc etc I would layer so yes I do think about
01:45:27
this a little bit uh and I've heard this like you want energy management not time management you know construct the other thing that I would add to it
01:45:34
that I don't know that I've ever heard anybody talk about is control so the Um,
01:45:40
the standard thing that everybody says is, "Oh, we all only have 24 hours in a day." Which obviously is true, but if
01:45:45
you were to break that into like 24 1-hour chunks and just look at your day laid out that way, you have different
01:45:51
levels of control over certain 1 hour chunks than others. Um, so for example, the, you know, what I said a minute ago,
01:45:57
like if you have a bunch of kids and you're getting them dressed from like 7:00 to 8 a.m., that hour isn't that much under your control. It's not a good
01:46:03
time to meditate. It's not a good time to work out. There's other responsibilities that tend to happen in that hour. And so I think that's an
01:46:09
interesting thing too is to map your day out and look at this and say, "All right, which hours are is my energy the
01:46:15
best and which hours are most under my control?" And then you can start to see like where you're ultimately what I
01:46:22
think you're getting to is what are the good hours for me? You know, like where do those live throughout the day? And
01:46:28
then the next step is to ask what is getting my best hours and what's getting my leftovers. And I I have had a couple
01:46:35
different times where I've looked at things and said, "I say this is important to me, but really it's only getting my leftover hours." And so then
01:46:42
you're like, "Okay, something might need to change." So I I think about all of that. I think about where's uh how much
01:46:47
time do I have in general? Where are the pockets where I have the most energy or the best energy? Um and then also where
01:46:53
are the pockets where I have the most control? And then you try to figure out how to slot stuff in. And theoretically, you'd want to put the new hard habits
01:47:00
you're trying to form in areas where you have the highest degree of control versus like 11 p.m. at night. Uh, right. I Yeah, I think I think in
01:47:06
general, that's right. It's it's so tricky when you have multiple things that really matter to you. You know, it's it's like, all right, you're
01:47:12
choosing between family, you're choosing between work, you're choosing between personal pursuits and these new habits you're trying to build. Like,
01:47:17
everything's got to kind of work together. And so, it's a balance of of shaping all of that.
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01:48:13
Did I ever tell you about the uh data breach that we had at my previous company? Yeah, I remember hearing about that
01:48:18
which which um was a total nightmare. So, I'm glad that we now use one password. What actually is it, Steve?
01:48:23
It's called um one password and they're the sponsor of the podcast now. And they have this feature called enterprise
01:48:28
password manager which means that if any of our passwords across the team are compromised or leaked then it notifies
01:48:34
us and obviously if that were to be the case we're at huge risk across the entire team. through one password EPM,
01:48:39
you can also store all of your sensitive information and it's helping us to move closer towards pass keys, which means
01:48:45
eventually everybody will be able to log in to pretty much everything without ever having to put a password in. Sounds like a good addition.
01:48:51
Yeah, I think it's like the single most impactful security addition you can make to your team, especially if your team has tons of passwords that are all like
01:48:58
hidden in Excel files and stuff. To my listeners, if you want to secure your business, head to onepass.com/doac.
01:49:05
One password is a game changer. It's the future that I always wished would be the case as someone that has, you know, 20,
01:49:10
30 different passwords for 20, 30 different applications. The first time we made our little
01:49:16
fitness group on WhatsApp, it was about how many calories you could burn. And that was what awarded you the points
01:49:21
and won the competition. Didn't last long. Didn't last long for a number of reasons. Kind of toxic, unfair, because
01:49:28
I have I weigh more than anyone in the group, so I burn more calories just by standing up. Um, and then it moved to this this idea of consistency. How do
01:49:34
you think about what is better? Is it better to be consistent or is it better to be something else?
01:49:40
I feel like there there's this story that people tell themselves a lot which is they want to do the big impressive thing, you know, like you want to do um
01:49:46
you want to run a marathon, you want to do a week-l long silent meditation retreat, you want to, you know, write the bestselling book, whatever. And I I
01:49:53
think about it as this balance between consistency and intensity. So intensity
01:49:59
is a good story. It's I I ran the marathon. I did the silent meditation retreat. consistency actually makes
01:50:06
progress. You know, it's I meditate for five minutes each day. I run, you know, three days a week or whatever. And so,
01:50:11
people need consistency more than they need intensity. And in fact, what I would say is
01:50:18
consistency enlarges ability. Consistency enlarges ability. It's the
01:50:23
act of showing up consistently that builds your capacity to do something,
01:50:28
that fosters the skill development and growth that you want. And so showing up,
01:50:33
even if it's just in a small way, is the way that you actually create the opportunity to do something more intense
01:50:39
or more impressive down the line. I also think that there's this
01:50:45
deep important lesson that comes from appreciating consistency and what's
01:50:50
required there. Consistency is often adaptability. It's flexibility.
01:50:57
There's this there's this story about like mental toughness and being discip like being a disciplined person that um
01:51:03
that we tell ourselves that's something like you know I grind to make sure this happens. I will I will you know make it
01:51:08
happen no matter what the circumstances like that the mentally tough person pushes through regardless of what they
01:51:14
face. But I think that in real life a lot of the time consistency is actually being flexible. It's being adaptable.
01:51:19
You know if you don't have enough energy you do the easier version. If you don't have enough time you do the short version. You find a way to not throw up
01:51:25
a zero that day. you find a way to show up even if it's not ideal. And that is actually being very mentally tough. And
01:51:32
so the the adaptable person is the one that um what's that line? It's uh when
01:51:39
the storm came, the oak tree fought it and broke, but the willow bent and survived. And so it's like you need a
01:51:44
way to manage the storms of life and bend with them while still showing up. If you purely fight against it, you
01:51:51
think that you'd think that being tough, that being mentally tough is like, I'm gonna make sure this happens. But it
01:51:57
actually makes you somewhat brittle. You know, you need it to be a certain way. And when you need life to be a certain
01:52:03
way to succeed, you become held hostage by the situation. You know, you need it to be just like
01:52:09
that. But if in fact you can be adaptable and you can be flexible, now you are actually more resilient. Um, and
01:52:15
so I think there's a a balance to strike there. and it it feeds into the consistency that will ultimately uh
01:52:21
enlarge your ability. I think this is such an important point that I don't often hear people talk about. It reminds me of my friend. My
01:52:27
friend, one of my best friends, he has a tendency to feel like he's cracked fitness. And what tends to happen is
01:52:33
he'll work out and go to the gym for like 3 months and he'll then announce that he's finally cracked it like the
01:52:39
consistency, the motivation. And the minute he does that is like 30 days before he falls off again because I
01:52:44
think I think he gets complacent. Life is going to happen. And I remember saying to him one one year, I mean, I've known him for 15 years now. I was like,
01:52:50
um, the thing I've come to learn about the gym and fitness is that you never crack it. And actually, the mindset that
01:52:55
every single day I could fall off and that life happens has helped me be
01:53:01
consistent. Whereas a version of me in 2017 set this ridiculous goal, which was I was going to go to the gym every
01:53:07
single day without fail. And then five months in where life happened and I missed a day, my motivations was gone
01:53:13
and I fell off. You see this a lot with top performers in in many different domains, which is it's not that they
01:53:19
don't make mistakes or they don't slip up. Everybody slips up, but they tend to get back on track quickly. And so really
01:53:26
what you need is not a perfect plan or like a system that never fails. What you need is a good plan for getting back on
01:53:32
track. You need if the reclaiming of a habit is fast, the breaking of it doesn't matter that much. You get to the
01:53:38
end of the year and it's just like a little blip on the radar, but you need a good plan for getting back on track quickly. So, I I think that uh some of
01:53:45
the balance, some of the some of the strategy is actually knowing what to do when you fail.
01:53:50
Yeah. Um and if you if you figure that out, then uh you're in a good position to bounce back quickly. Funnily enough, when I fail, when I fall
01:53:57
off my gym workout or whatever, what I do is I I set the display picture on my iPhone to red. And I guess this is a
01:54:03
point of self-awareness. It just reminds me that we've currently fallen off. That means every time I look at my phone, it's a reminder that this is code red.
01:54:10
Wow, that's great. What a strong visual sign. Yeah. And that I need to start doing the small steps, doing the [ __ ]
01:54:15
workouts again, you know. So, I have this um I have this little theory that the secret to winning
01:54:21
is actually learning how to lose. It's that the secret to winning is knowing how to lose. Um and what I mean is that
01:54:26
it's knowing how to handle a loss. It's knowing how to rebound and bounce back from that. I think that I learned it
01:54:34
through sports. I don't think sports is the only way you can learn it. I think probably anything that you do with some level of public visibility could teach
01:54:40
you. you know, musical performance or being in a fitness group with your friends or there's lots of ways you do it, speaking publicly.
01:54:45
But one thing about sports is that you're going to fail in front of the rest of the team, you know, like the
01:54:51
ball will come to you'll start make the strikeout to end the game or like you know, you go uh into the gym and work out with the team and like you miss a
01:54:57
lift or you're the weak one or whatever. Like that doesn't feel good, but then you realize life moves on and you got to
01:55:02
go on to the next set and you have to show up again the next time. And each little instance where there's like a little failure like that is practice for
01:55:10
you to bounce back again. And I think it's important to have something in life that's like that that's teaching you how
01:55:16
to respond to failure. That you're learning how to lose and how to bounce back from a loss so that you can
01:55:21
ultimately win. I got to the point at the end of my career um my senior year where I was basically like listen I
01:55:28
don't want to lose but if we're going to lose I'd rather it be me. I'd rather be out there. Give it put it on my shoulders. I can take the loss, you
01:55:34
know, I can I can handle it. I I'll give you everything I have to try to get us to win, but if we lose, like, I'll be able to bounce back from it. And I think
01:55:41
that that ended up serving me really well in my entrepreneurial career because stuff is never going to go your
01:55:46
way all the time. Um, and you need to be able to try, be willing to try things and be willing to sometimes look foolish
01:55:53
because of them and still find a way to show back up the next time. Reminds me of watching Roger Fedra's
01:56:00
commencement speech. He's arguably the best tennis player of all time. And shockingly, in his commencement speech, I don't know if you saw it, he talks
01:56:06
about how in his career he's missed something like 47% of the points. So,
01:56:11
he's the best to ever do it. And he's he only in his career has won 53% of the
01:56:18
points, which means that half the time he's taking L's. But the difference is what he does when he takes the L and not
01:56:25
allowing that L that that missed point to compound into what his next shot. M and I was in LA with my friends for my
01:56:31
birthday. My friend Ash, who's had the most paddle training. We were playing paddle. We do, that's what we do basically all the time when we see each
01:56:37
other, our group of friends. He'd had the most paddle training. He's been in Spain with a coach. But when he lost a
01:56:45
point, he would then start losing easy points. And there's this photo of me watching him play and I'm like, "What the hell's going on with him?" Like,
01:56:50
he's the best. He's meant to be the best player. He's got the most practice, most repetitions. But when he loses a point,
01:56:55
this downward spiral takes place where he just starts missing easy shots. So when he sat down, I told him about Rod Roer Fedra's thing. And I gave him this
01:57:02
little idea in his head to to handle the loss. And I said to him, when you lose the point, say in your head, that point
01:57:08
doesn't matter. I'm going to win this game anyway because I am the better player. And I still get goosebumps when
01:57:14
I say it because he went from being the fifth best in our group of five to beating all of us
01:57:19
immediately. And there's there's it's so funny cuz my girlfriend and everyone here knows like he was like dancing through the house
01:57:25
the same day. He beat all of us. I had never been beaten by him. I have a pal in my garden. Like he beat me immediately. And all it was was was
01:57:33
making sure that when he took an L, he didn't spiral into his emot the emotional center of his brain and start
01:57:38
catastrophizing which he's susceptible to if you know him. He went straight back into the prefrontal cortex, the rational center of his brain. And he and
01:57:44
he said he and you know he's posted about it online and I actually part of my Asia tour recently was I showed all the videos and all the WhatsApp messages
01:57:50
of this whole thing happening. But it just goes to show that actually it's how you take the L. I love those mindset shifts. It's just a
01:57:57
it's living life with a next play mentality, you know? It's like you don't let the last play dictate you or like ruin you.
01:58:03
It's we have to move on and make the next best choice now. We have to we have to live for the next play. Um and how much emotion just like ruins our
01:58:10
training. Sure. You know. Yeah. I feel like a lot of this is there's a great book Inner Game of Tennis um that came out many many years
01:58:17
ago. Might even be 50 at this point. Um but it's basically all about this. It's about not getting in your head. And it's
01:58:23
it's specifically for tennis, but it applies to life, you know. It's it's just about um yeah, it's moving on and
01:58:29
having this next play mentality. So David Braford said that to me as well about one of his main objectives when he had the cycling team was to get them not
01:58:35
to think about the race while they were on the race. And he said, I think it was Chris Chris Hoy or someone. He said my
01:58:41
entire training with Chris Hoy was getting him to stop thinking about the current race he was in. and that when
01:58:47
Chris was hit his personal bests, he would get off the the bike and have no recollection of cycling.
01:58:53
He goes to the point that it was like he was asleep on the bike because when the alternative meant that Chris would start
01:58:58
thinking about his time and then cycling too hard and exhausting himself and fall out of his his training. So, fascinating
01:59:04
fascinating um you talk about daily mental mindsets as well. Is it important to adopt a particular daily mental
01:59:10
mindset? Well, I um I had this thought that uh one time I had this thought that it
01:59:16
would be cool to be able to hire a mental performance coach who just did one thing. So you you hire this coach and then they call you up each morning
01:59:22
like 8 a.m. or something and they give you like a five minute pep talk, you know, or just they give you like a five
01:59:28
minute mindset shift, just something little kind of like what you said to your friend, you know, and just like you get this little mindset shift to reset
01:59:34
your day and go into it with momentum and they hang up and you just go do your thing. Um, and you know, I I couldn't
01:59:40
find anybody who, you know, could do that, but I've been working on this little project where I've been trying to figure out how to do it. And so, I came
01:59:46
up with, it sounds almost kind of silly, but I'm really excited about it. I came up with this Atomic Habits daily calendar. And the idea is just, it's
01:59:54
actually like a blend of Atomic Habits, Principles, and 321, which is my weekly newsletter. And I just have like one
01:59:59
little mindset shift that's on each page. And it's just one page for each day of the year. You just look at it, read that page, boom, go into your day.
02:00:06
And like it's just intended to be a little mindset shift. Anyway, it's a it's just a small thing, but I like I like the idea of priming yourself to
02:00:12
start the day in the right way. And um I don't know. I didn't think that I would be excited about a calendar, but I'm I'm
02:00:18
kind of excited about it. I kind of feel like it it could be good. So, is it coming out? Yes, it'll be out in uh it'll be out
02:00:24
soon. Yeah. Okay. And where where would we find that? Do we sign up to the uh It's on Amazon. You can you can go there or you know, you can go to
02:00:29
jamesclair.com and you'll you'll find it there. But um yeah, so this book, the Atomic Habits
02:00:35
Workbook, Simple Exercises for Building the Life You Want is now out. It came out this week. What is this the
02:00:42
distinction between these two books? If I read Atomic Habits already, let me have a book. All right. So, um
02:00:48
Atomic Habits is the culmination of basically 10 years of
02:00:54
work and effort for me. Um, it's like I my objective was to write the best book
02:01:01
that's ever been written on habits. Now, I don't know that I achieved that or not. That's for the readers to decide,
02:01:06
but I don't think you're ever going to just stumble into that result. You know, like you have to at least strive for it. Um, and so that was the hope is that
02:01:13
everything that you would could possibly need to know about building good habits and breaking bad ones should be in
02:01:19
Atomic Habits. So then you're like, okay, why would I need a workbook? Um, but uh what I've learned over the last
02:01:26
seven years of this being out and selling 25 million copies is that people always need more tangible practical help
02:01:32
with implementing their habits. So, Atomic Habits is the full guide and the
02:01:38
philosophy and the approach on how to do it. Then you finish this book and you sit there and you say, "All right, great. I have some habits I want to
02:01:45
build. How do I do that?" And the exercises in the workbook are intended to help you do that. They help you look
02:01:50
at your environment and figure out how do I optimize it? They help you look at your goals and how do I translate it into a system. They help you look at
02:01:57
your desired identity and how are my habits reinforcing it. So it's just a series of exercises that help you apply
02:02:03
and implement the ideas from atomic habits. The great thing about the way that you write is it's so unbelievably
02:02:08
accessible. So unbelievably accessible in the context which means that you don't need to be a scientist or an
02:02:14
expert to understand the concepts. And I think that's why the book has been atomic habits has been so unbelievably successful. This book, the workbook,
02:02:20
follows in the same vein. It allows people at all levels of their knowledge of habits and intellect to get going and
02:02:27
to start sort of holding themselves accountable. I'd say accountability is a huge part of this. I kind of see elements of that fitness group I
02:02:33
described, fitness blockchain, just because you're reflecting and you're writing down what happened. And um like
02:02:38
you said earlier about how just journaling increases the likelihood of a behavior. Um this book will raise your
02:02:45
self-awareness. Yes, that's a good that's actually a great summary of it. I think it uh it makes you more aware of
02:02:51
your habits and your environment and what you're trying to do specifically rather than just understanding the concepts.
02:02:57
James, thank you. Thank you for um changing so many people's lives. You must hear this all the time, but what a
02:03:02
remarkable remarkable um impact you must have had on so many people you'll never
02:03:08
get to meet. Getting them to quit habits that would have otherwise been fatal for them. You know, my dad is a prime
02:03:13
example of someone who was smoking for 20 odd years of his life. He starts reading about these habit cycles in your
02:03:19
work, but in other people's work as well, and he's quit smoking and that's probably extended his life to some
02:03:24
degree. And that's one such example of I'd say 25 million because I know the Atomic Habits has sold 25 million, but
02:03:30
you've reached many many many millions of people through your newsletter as well, 321. um which is the I mean the
02:03:37
newsletter has kind of created a blueprint for anyone that writes a newsletter. Frankly, I think everybody
02:03:43
looks up to your work and what you've built as the the framework for starting their own newsletters. And you know, you
02:03:49
never get you'll never get to see the downstream impact of the work you've done. But on behalf of everybody who's
02:03:54
had their life ch changed because of the hard work you've put in and your obsession and your focus and your
02:03:59
passion and these incredible works of art that you've written and that you didn't rush. Um, thank you and thank you
02:04:05
on behalf of myself because your h your work has been super formative in how I think about business, how I think about
02:04:10
my team. Um, and many of the phrases that we use in our office every single day to build the companies we've built have come from your work as well.
02:04:16
Everybody needs to go out. I mean, if you don't have Atomic Habits, then I don't know what you've been doing with your life. But, um, now that the Atomic
02:04:22
Habits workbook is here, you now have a much more um, self-awareness inducing,
02:04:28
practical, hands-on framework for implementing some of the stuff you've read in Atomic Habits. Now, I'm going to link both of them below so everybody can
02:04:35
go grab them. But also, your James' newsletter is phenomenal. So, I'll link that below as well. We do have a closing
02:04:40
tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're leaving it for. Question that has been left for you.
02:04:47
Dear next person in the chat, what do you believe is the best way to
02:04:53
unify people of differing or even conflicting beliefs?
02:04:59
Let me know your thoughts. Best Kamal Harris. I think the best way is to scale it down. You know, if you say, "How can
02:05:05
we have a more unified nation, it's big, it's vague, it's it's almost impossible, it's like an intractable level." But if
02:05:11
you scale it down now, you can come up with things. You know, how can you have a more unified neighborhood? You could start a book club or do a block party or
02:05:18
you can come up with all kinds of things that you could do. And what you find is that in many cases in life, problems are
02:05:24
intractable at a certain level, at a certain scale. And if you shift what level you're at, suddenly it reveals
02:05:30
itself and there's a new solution. And so I think that is obviously true uh with big picture things like like the
02:05:36
question I was asked but it's also true for your habits. You know if you think about your life in general and you say
02:05:41
how can I have a better life or how can I figure out my purpose? How can I figure out you know how to have a life of meaning? These are big hard
02:05:48
questions. They're sometimes they're almost intractable. They're too vague. They're too broad. But if you can scale it down and say how can I live a good
02:05:55
day today or how can I have a good week? How can I have um you know a good next
02:06:00
hour? how can I make this minute as perfect as possible? Well, those those levels are much more achievable. And so,
02:06:06
I think if you scale your habits down to a level that's more solvable, you'll often see that there's a path forward
02:06:12
there. What's interesting with your neighborhood analogy as well is that neighborhoods are interconnected. So, if I if I focus on making my
02:06:18
neighborhood good, then that kind of just crosses over with the next neighborhood. Like thinking about my street where I used to live
02:06:24
and so if that neighborhood becomes good, it's going to then hit the next domino, which is the neighborhood next door. and then eventually called
02:06:30
which is also true for your personal life. You know your each unit of time each little habit is connected. You know
02:06:36
you put your habits together and you kind of end up with this system of behaviors that influence your day and your week. So mastering this hour makes
02:06:43
the next hour a little bit better as well. There's I ultimately chose the phrase atomic habits for three reasons. There's
02:06:49
there's three meanings to the word atomic. The first is tiny or small like an atom which obviously I think your habit should be small and easy to do.
02:06:55
The second meaning is the one we're talking about now and the one people often forget which is an atom is a
02:07:00
fundamentally unit in a larger system. So atoms build in molecules, molecules build in compounds and so on. And your
02:07:06
habits are kind of like the little units of your day. You know, collectively you put them together and you have your daily routine. And then the third
02:07:12
meaning is the source of immense energy or power. And so if you put all three of these together, you kind of understand
02:07:18
the narrative arc of the book, which is you make changes that are small and easy to do. You layer them together like
02:07:24
units in a larger system and collectively you get this powerful remarkable result as a process and so or
02:07:30
as a consequence and that is the idea behind atomic habits. You make these small changes and it's not just one it's
02:07:36
like a hundred or a thousand of them and collectively they come together to create this powerful impressive life.
02:07:42
Powerful impressive life. Do you think that we should all be aiming at this is
02:07:47
a bit of an interesting word but happiness is that should that is that the north star that our habits should
02:07:54
ladder up towards or fulfillment or whatever one might say or meaning for first of all I think we should
02:08:00
distinguish between happiness and meaning you know or happiness and purpose or something fulfillment I don't
02:08:05
think they're necessarily the same you know like there are many moments in my life when I am happy uh and that can be in the moment and a lot of the most
02:08:12
meaningful things that I worked on you know atomic habits was one of the most meaningful projects that I've worked on. It seems to have made a big difference
02:08:17
for a lot of people or helped a lot of people. I feel great about that. But I wasn't necessarily happy every minute
02:08:22
that I was working on it. You know, like it was it was quite difficult in lots of different times and it took a long time and it was arduous and so on, but it
02:08:28
provides a lot of meaning. So, I definitely think it was worth it even if I wasn't always happy in the moment. So, I don't know that you should necessarily
02:08:35
optimize for any of that all the time. Um, you know, I don't think your habits will lead you to some place where you
02:08:40
are just permanently happy. Um, but
02:08:45
they will definitely take you on a journey where happiness is part of it and where meaning can be part of it. Um,
02:08:51
and there are lots of other things that are parts of life too. But, uh, yeah, I I think that you will be well served to
02:08:57
invest in them for sure. James, thank you so much. It's been Thank you. And thank you so much for saying those kind things. That's uh that's very nice of you. Um, I have been
02:09:06
incredibly lucky and blown away by the reception to the book and um, it just feels it feels
02:09:13
great to know that people are finding it useful. You know, all I wanted to do was try to be useful and helpful and um, I
02:09:18
appreciate you saying that and I'm I'm grateful that many other people have found it helpful as well. Yeah, I don't think you'll ever realize,
02:09:25
you know, you see 25 million people have bought the book, but it's much bigger than that. It's it's billions of people have been impacted by that because
02:09:30
everybody is like a like a pebble thrown into the ocean, right? There's these ripple effects that go on and it changes their professional life, their personal
02:09:36
life, their health, their friendships, relationships. So, it's unbelievable. Thank you, James. Thank you. Thank you.
02:09:44
This is something that I've made for you. I realize that the Dio audience are strivals
02:09:52
that we want to accomplish. And one of the things I've learned is that when you aim at the big big big goal, it can feel
02:09:58
incredibly psychologically uncomfortable because it's kind of like being stood at the foot of Mount Everest and looking
02:10:04
upwards. The way to accomplish your goals is by breaking them down into tiny small steps. And we call this in our
02:10:11
team the 1%. And actually this philosophy is highly responsible for much of our success here. So, what we've
02:10:17
done so that you at home can accomplish any big goal that you have is we've made these 1% diaries and we released these
02:10:24
last year and they all sold out. So, I asked my team over and over again to bring the diaries back, but also to
02:10:30
introduce some new colors and to make some minor tweaks to the diary. So, now we have a better range for you. So, if
02:10:38
you have a big goal in mind and you need a framework and a process and some motivation, then I highly recommend you
02:10:44
get one of these diaries before they all sell out once again. And you can get yours now at the diary.com where you can
02:10:49
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02:11:05
Heat. Heat.