00:00:00
women tend to be more Unhappily Married than men and 80% of the time women bring
00:00:06
up problems in a relationship but 69% of all problems are not solvable so if you
00:00:12
rely on problems getting solved as an indicator of the success of the relationship it's not going to look good
00:00:19
Dr Jong and Dr Julie gotman world-renowned researchers and clinical psychologists who've been married 36
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years and have spent the last 50 years studying love you made something called love lab what is that we followed 3,000
00:00:32
couples it taught us the difference between what masters of relationship do and what disasters do what advice would
00:00:40
you give to me then cuddle 96% of non- cuddlers had an awful sex life anything
00:00:45
else yes the hookup culture is thriving is that a problem yes why okay so let me
00:00:51
point out something that everybody needs to hear so and also kissing is very
00:00:57
powerful men who kiss their wives goodbye women they leave for work live four years longer than men who don't in
00:01:04
your research you found that during conflict couples who show four key behaviors mean that an argument is doomed yes and they are criticism
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defensiveness the third one was the worst and that was that was the best predictor of relationship breakup and
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the fourth was John Julie can you role play the behavior that a couple who are destined
00:01:26
to fail would exhibit oh yes
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so it's absolutely crazy to me that so many of you have decided to watch our show um and so many of you have decided
00:01:38
to subscribe to our show we now have five million subscribers on YouTube which is a number that I just can't comprehend and it's a dream that I
00:01:45
absolutely never could have had we started the dire of a CO just over three years ago now and in my wildest
00:01:51
expectations we might have had 100,000 subscribers by now so you can imagine how shocked I am that so many of you
00:01:57
have chosen to tune into these conversations every week um and spend some time with us so thank you and I
00:02:04
made a deal with you I made a deal that if you subscribe to this show that we would continue to raise the bar and in
00:02:10
2024 we're going to raise the bar like never before I've been working for the last 9 months on a surprise for all of
00:02:17
you that have subscribed to the show and I'm very excited to deliver that for you the production's going to change we're
00:02:23
going to go even further with our guests and we're going to tell even more Global stories so as always if you appreciate
00:02:29
what we doing here the simple free favor I'll ask from you is to hit the Subscribe button let's get on with the
00:02:37
[Music] episode John Julie you've both been
00:02:45
studying the subject of love for more than 50 years you've written books you've done a
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lot of primary research you run something called The Love lab I'm going to start with you Julie
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M what is the mission that you're on and why love that is the
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most wonderful question in the universe here's why we have a world as we all
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know that is full of conflict is full of
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uh antipathy is full of violence
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domestic violence all kinds of clashes between
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people and we wanted to focus on love because love is the great healer right
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it heals people's hearts it heals people's Souls it brings people together
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it unifies people but nobody has taken relationships
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101 nobody knows how to have productive relationships that are calm and gentle
00:03:56
and compassionate and at the beginning of the research we had no idea of what
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successful couples did to really solidify their relationship and sustain
00:04:08
it so John and his wonderful colleague Robert levenson did some of that
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earliest research that taught us the difference between what masters of
00:04:20
relationship do and what disasters do so we could help as many people as possible
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and John the same question for you with all the work that you've done in your life life what is it that you're seeking
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to deliver to the person that consumes that work what is it you're seeking to
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do for them well Bob and I started studying relationships because we were so incompetent at it and we we're just
00:04:45
too clueless guys going from one relationship disaster to another and we were really curious about whether there
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were people out there who could do it well and we found they were and you know
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and then we thought how are they different from people you know who like
00:05:03
us really went from one disaster to another and we had no idea we really had
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very few hypotheses when we started so it was just curiosity uh and we weren't
00:05:15
interested in helping anybody at all we were just curious about finding out what the differences were and then 26 years
00:05:23
ago Julia and I decided to work together and she's a clinical psychologist she wants to help people and and I thought
00:05:30
it was impossible to change relationships because if you can predict with such high accuracy that a
00:05:37
relationship is doomed or it works how can you change it you know it seemed
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seemed impossible but Julie's really an optimist and really cares about people
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and so we got together and we thought well we need a theory if we're going to help people cuz every relationship is
00:05:54
different and so first we built a theory and then we tested it so that's how I
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got into it really I didn't have a mission so how did you both come to study and work together on the subject
00:06:08
of love in particular well John had already been
00:06:13
studying it right right so uh we met what almost 38 years ago and what
00:06:21
happened is that I'd be coming home talking about my clinical cases over dinner John would come home from the lab
00:06:29
and be sharing the statistics and the findings he had that were really
00:06:35
thrilling and after a while um he was he
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was garnering such incredible information such great knowledge that
00:06:45
one day we were out in the middle of the sea canoeing and I said honey let's take
00:06:51
this stuff out of the Ivory Tower let's let's form Theory and interventions
00:06:57
based on what these successful couples are doing doing to really sustain their love it's such a beautiful thing we see
00:07:04
and he said sure why not and we did and joh what was that research well you know
00:07:10
Bob and I found that there really were masters of relationships and we spent a
00:07:16
Dozen Years studying gay and lesbian couples too same thing there there were people who knew how to have
00:07:21
relationships and they were very different from the couples who are struggling and most of the clinical
00:07:28
books have been written by therapist IST who never saw the good relationships and so we had information that was very new
00:07:35
and it was pretty fascinating um but the question was could we actually turn a
00:07:42
disaster into a master could we prevent relationship disaster we didn't know so
00:07:48
it was kind of a question you know was it just correlation or were the findings
00:07:54
causal and so it was really uh curiosity that continued and how many research
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papers have you published now uh couple hundred I think and how many books
00:08:06
between you have you written Julie I think we're on 52 maybe how many couples
00:08:12
have you studied John well a latest study involved over 40,000 couples
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looking at their questionnaires and couples about to start therapy but following couples in the lab that the
00:08:27
kind of lab that Bob levenson and I created uh about 3,000 couples and Bob studied a
00:08:33
group of couples for 20 years the same group of couples in their 40s or in
00:08:38
their 60s when they started the study and he actually was able to get funding for 20 years so the group of couples in
00:08:46
the 40s were now in their 60s and you can compare them to the couples 20 years
00:08:51
ago who were in their 60s so wound up being you know a 40-year longitudinal
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study has anyone ever studied couples for that l length of time no not really
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it really was a first when people think about the subject of love I don't think they necessarily hold
00:09:08
it in such high importance in their life they think about other thing especially as it correlates to our health outcomes
00:09:15
so like you know my physical health outcomes are they right in deprioritizing love as a path to having
00:09:22
good physical health or does our love and relationships correlate to our our
00:09:27
physical health our chance of disease these kinds of things there's a new field that started kind of when I
00:09:33
started doing my research and it's called social epidemiology a guy named Leonard Sim started at Berkeley with his
00:09:40
student Lisa burkeman and they did this uh study called the Alam County study
00:09:46
where they studied 9,000 people and S was interested in diet he was interested
00:09:52
in cholesterol and he found that Chinese American immigrants just lived a lot
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longer and were a lot healthier than Americans were even Chinese American immigrants so he was kind of curious
00:10:05
about you know what really was the difference was it the diet was it and he found it was really Community it was
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really that these people moved with their friends and he found in general
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that the quality of people's closest relationships really predicted longevity
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very strong prediction too so it's become a whole field called social epidemology and people have studied the
00:10:30
immune system and you know found that all over the planet people who are socially isolated who have bad
00:10:37
relationships don't live as long they get sick and die a lot younger and that
00:10:43
people have great relationships they live a lot longer and the quality of their life is better they're a lot
00:10:49
happier and so it seems to make a real big difference modern social psychology
00:10:55
has been finding the same thing with people's relationship to strangers that that affects health so if
00:11:02
you reach out to strangers and in in the morning if you're commuting having a conversation with the commuter next to
00:11:09
you then you're open to learning about their lives that also affects your Health and
00:11:15
Longevity so we're really a very social species it's interesting because we spend a lot of time you know going to
00:11:21
the gym or thinking about our diet or something but what you were saying and I think what a lot of your work has
00:11:27
uncovered is that we should be investing in the same way in relationships in a really intentional way and especially
00:11:32
when we consider the nature of the world now where we're getting lonier and more detached than ever before no one taught
00:11:38
me at any point in my life to think of my relationships like the gym yeah right
00:11:45
what's your take on that Julie well uh being a gym buff
00:11:51
myself I love going to the gym but um one thing that I'm really remembering is
00:11:57
that uh people people whose parents divorced typically they live four years
00:12:05
less on average than people who grew up with an intact family people who grew up
00:12:14
with divorce and then ended up divorcing them themselves their own relationships
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divorcing lived eight years less so you can see how important love is and we're
00:12:28
beginning to understand all of this by looking at things like
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oxytocin serotonin versus things like adrenaline and cortisol which are stress
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hormones that will flood the body and stress the body when we're in a bad
00:12:50
relationship you made something called The Love lab very curious name place I think I'd
00:12:56
like to go um what is the love lab well it got named that by the BBC when
00:13:01
they did a a show on our newlywed study but it was it was basically an apartment
00:13:08
like setting and couple spent 24 hours there and the cameras were rolling the
00:13:14
whole time they were awake and and like Bob and I did we synchronized physiological data to the video time
00:13:21
code so we could you know see what was what they were doing what they were saying to one another and at the same
00:13:27
time be able to look at their heart rates and their blood velocity and things like that and and we measured
00:13:33
other physiological things and immune variables as well so that was basically
00:13:39
the lab and we followed couples a couple of months after the wedding many of them
00:13:44
uh as they got pregnant and had babies I learned how to study parent infant interaction from some of my friends who
00:13:51
were experts in that field and we followed the children as they got older so that was kind of the lab it was just
00:13:58
to see whether uh there was any predictability in relationships if we
00:14:04
weren't telling people what to talk about just watching them as they might normally go about a typical day so let
00:14:11
me get this straight you you have these people come to this sort of normal setting kind of like an apartment but
00:14:16
it's really a laboratory where they're being studied for their physiological biomarkers of I don't know heart rate
00:14:22
things like that you just watch them well they're being videotaped right and
00:14:28
that video tape then afterwards is analyzed hundredth of a second by
00:14:34
hundredth of a second corresponding also to their physiological
00:14:40
measures and we're analyzing all of that tape in terms of the content of what
00:14:47
they're saying what their body movements are what their facial expressions are
00:14:53
what emotions are they expressing how are they expressing those emotions if any are they responding to each other's
00:15:01
bids for connection we looked at so much
00:15:06
data and it was a gold mine it taught us so much not only about the best way for
00:15:15
couples to manage conflict but even more important how do couples create a deeper
00:15:21
friendship with one another and by then we'd already known that friendship in a
00:15:28
relation ship also helps create more passion and good sex in a longlasting
00:15:35
relationship so there was so much for us to learn it was exciting going into that
00:15:41
study at the love lab what were the sort of big things that you discovered
00:15:47
afterwards that are misconceptions about relationships so you know I can think of
00:15:53
a couple off the top of my head but you'll know them better what are the big misconceptions that you discovered from
00:15:58
that start with you Julie a lot of people think that sustaining a good
00:16:03
relationship takes huge effort you know takes really figuring out things like
00:16:11
active listening where if you say to me Stephen you know I am really angry
00:16:17
because you keep leaving the lid off the toothpaste what's the matter with you
00:16:22
and how do I respond to that well we would learn that criticism for example
00:16:31
you always you never those are criticisms didn't work to manage
00:16:36
conflict on the other hand what we also saw is that when somebody made a little
00:16:43
tiny bid for connection for example there was a big window in this apartment
00:16:49
looking out the window and saying oh my God there's a beautiful bird in the tree what does your partner do this proved to
00:16:58
be incred ibly important does your partner either turn against you by
00:17:04
saying stop interrupting me I'm trying to read or ignore you completely which
00:17:12
is silence not paying attention or look out the window too and say huh
00:17:19
cool that's all it took to create a
00:17:24
better friendship for a couple and we found that the couples who were successful in the Long Haul turn towards
00:17:32
each other's little bits for connection 85% of the time the couples who ended up
00:17:39
splitting up unhappy divorced 33% of the time so listen to that
00:17:47
difference just between saying uhhuh and saying nothing let's start there then I
00:17:54
am I think I am guilty of being very
00:17:59
very bad at responding positively to bids for connection from my partner this is actually one of the central issues
00:18:04
that we've struggled with over the last couple of months is my partner will come home like usually I'm coming home she's
00:18:10
already home just before me and I'm still I've still got my work brain on I'm thinking about work I rush into the
00:18:15
living room sometimes I'll like say hello to her then I'll go on my laptop and I start working and she comes over
00:18:21
and says something to me and because I'm focused on my work I either acknowledge
00:18:26
her but without turning my head or sometimes I'll just give one sec babee I'm busy or say something words to that
00:18:33
effect right it's clearly causing a problem I'm I'm guilty of the same thing I was working on a on a book uh
00:18:41
and Julie said you know I go into the living room and sit down and you don't even look up and I sit there for a while
00:18:48
and then I get up and leave and you haven't even noticed that I was there so I was guilty of it too turning away and
00:18:56
we worked on it we did work on it the other thing too though with John and
00:19:01
I've I've learned to accept this right over time is that John grew up in a
00:19:07
little teeny weeny apartment as a refugee in New York City and it was loud
00:19:15
and noisy and there were a lot of people all around so he had to develop this
00:19:20
incredible sense of concentration and so when I first met you it was so funny
00:19:26
John um I would be across the kitchen counter from John he would be reading a
00:19:34
book he wouldn't even be on his computer be reading a book and I would say John uh
00:19:41
John hey John and I would wave my hand and finally he would say oh yeah I
00:19:49
really didn't hear it he didn't hear it I mean literally and I had to understand that with that kind of
00:19:57
concentration he really didn't hear me how did it make you feel how did it make
00:20:02
me feel at first it made me feel invisible
00:20:08
unimportant um unloved rejected alone you know it made
00:20:14
me feel all kinds of stuff until I understood wait a minute there's something in his
00:20:20
brain that's very different than my brain because I'm always you know I have
00:20:26
no skin I'm like super aware of everything around me okay so John give me some advice then from your studies in
00:20:33
the love lab if my partner makes a bid for connection yeah what are the ways that people typically respond and how
00:20:39
should I respond when you looked at the couples that were most successful over the long term um how do they respond how
00:20:46
should I respond give me some advice yeah I think I I think the really great relationships have this motto that when
00:20:54
their partner is upset you just stop everything you're doing and listen and I
00:21:00
I keep a notebook in my back pocket just for that purpose so if Julie says we
00:21:05
need to talk I whip out my notebook my pen and I say okay I'm taking notes so
00:21:12
I'm ready to listen to her and you know it's true that sometimes I'm oblivious
00:21:17
to what's going on around me but you know I I become much more aware so when
00:21:23
she comes into the living room now I I stop what I'm doing close the computer and say how you doing what's on your
00:21:31
mind my my issue is with that is I work in the living room sometimes so what's
00:21:37
the balance between me being able to work in the living room or work in like a public home space without being
00:21:43
interrupted while also not rejecting my partner accidentally or you know lowkey
00:21:48
intentionally I I think the solution is to create a ritual around connection you know so if she if she really needs to
00:21:56
talk to you she can you know give you a signal that it's important for her to
00:22:01
connect with you and then it's not always happening you know it's just happening when it's important and
00:22:07
Julie's like that too so she'll you know she'll come in and she won't sit there
00:22:12
and and just wait for me to respond she'll actually go we need to talk and then I know I get my notebook out but
00:22:19
let me point out something though honey you're you're talking only about you know if I'm upset about something so I
00:22:27
have to work in the living room also of our house um or John may be working in
00:22:33
the living room and if he's working on something and I want his
00:22:39
attention I may ask him can I have your attention for a moment so I need to say
00:22:47
what I need to him and if it's something that's trivial and he says just a minute
00:22:54
you know I'm working on an email or whatever okay that's fine you know our
00:22:59
timing is not going to be identical he's not going to be available necessarily
00:23:05
all the time I want to talk to him I won't be either right and so we try to
00:23:13
inquire of one another is this a good time for us to talk and there's
00:23:18
sometimes when it's not a good time for you to talk John of course right of course that's where I think I've
00:23:23
struggled because sometimes I feel like this is not a good time to talk and I express that and I think maybe the way that I'm expressing it isn't soft enough
00:23:31
maybe I'm you know let me give you one of my favorite things to say okay which
00:23:37
is honey I would really love to listen to you right now but I really am feeling
00:23:43
pressured to finish this so can you just wait however amount of time you know 30
00:23:50
minutes or an hour and then I'll be able to give you my full attention see that I want to listen to
00:23:59
you that's the key phrase that tells your partner I value you I love you but
00:24:09
there's pressure on me right now too so please be understanding and I'll be
00:24:15
there for you as soon as I can be you know in the in the love lab when you saw these couples who were missing bids for
00:24:22
connection so for the example you gave Julie of someone looking out the window and saying babe come and look at this and then the other person either ignores
00:24:29
it or kind of dismisses it was that individual who dismissed it or ignored it John were they doing that
00:24:35
intentionally did they was it a buildup of something that's caused them to sort of passively reject the person or was it
00:24:41
they were just oblivious yeah it's really hard to know I mean the one thing I can tell you was the person who got
00:24:48
turned away from kind of crumples a little bit so regardless of the reason
00:24:54
for the turning away if it's really habitual that person making a bid really gets
00:25:01
hurt by the turning away and and that I think leads people to
00:25:07
stop bidding you know to think you know what's the point and then what happens
00:25:13
well then they they just create this emotional distance yeah uh and put up walls and then what happens and then
00:25:21
what happens is that they become lonely and then what happens quite often an
00:25:26
fair oh they cheat or okay yeah eventually and it all starts with
00:25:32
missing a bid for connection potentially and that becoming a habit many of them yeah yeah you know I I like to use the
00:25:38
metaphor of a sea anemon you know what that's like right it's a little sea
00:25:44
creature in a tile pool that that has all these little fingers all these little fingers so it may be relaxing
00:25:51
those fingers and opening up and revealing its underbelly but when somebody refuses a
00:26:01
bid for connection it's as if that little C anomy has been poked right in
00:26:07
the stomach and so all the fingers close up and shut down and lock down and it
00:26:14
takes a much longer time for that anemon to unfold its fingers again and be open
00:26:23
yeah it's not safe mhm did you ever find and I think this is something that I've talked about before on my relationship
00:26:29
that sometimes when I miss a bid for connection it increases the amounts of bids for connection because I think I'm
00:26:37
guessing that I'm a bit of an avoidant type based on my history in my childhood she's a little bit more of an anxious
00:26:43
type so it seems to be the case that if I say not now babe I'm working then the amount of bids increase and they they
00:26:50
come they they start to become in my opinion and I could be well wrong here they they're not they're not actually
00:26:58
there's not actually something out the window now it becomes more about trying to confirm whether I it's a test right
00:27:04
it's a test yeah that's it feels like a test yeah right right but also what it
00:27:10
is when especially when there isn't something outside the window
00:27:16
is very pure and simple I need to connect with you I need to feel that
00:27:24
connection sure I can imagine it I can remember it from you know 3 hours ago
00:27:30
but right now I'm feeling that kind of little stirring inside of me that need
00:27:36
and I want to connect with you I just need that connection so she's attempting to create
00:27:43
that what is this attune framework John
00:27:49
attune awareness turning toward tolerance understanding n defensive empathetic what is this framework yeah
00:27:54
Attunement is really uh you know it's like two Musical instruments that really
00:27:59
are tuned to one another and when one plays the other resonates so uh creating
00:28:06
rituals of connection you know like we have a ritual every morning you know where you know I'll say I'll ask Julie
00:28:13
you know what's on your play today what you know what's your day look like and she'll say what what does your day look
00:28:18
like so we kind of check in with with each other and then at dinner we have another ritual connection and you know
00:28:25
how was your day you know what what happened how did that how did that session go and we kind of keep in touch
00:28:31
with each other with these structured ways of attuning and in that way you
00:28:38
don't lose touch you don't make assumptions you know we ask each other questions like what can I do this week
00:28:44
to make you feel loved and you know when you have that kind of ritual then you
00:28:50
know you know you're connecting and um and you're like those two instruments
00:28:56
that are tuned to each other may I add a little to that um empathy is super super
00:29:03
important and I I honestly believe that empathy is probably the most powerful
00:29:10
tool we have to really create connection with one another so if our partner is
00:29:17
saying to us I'm really upset right now I'm really angry that I'm doing all the
00:29:26
housework can you attune to that can you say first of all tell me more what what
00:29:34
is making that a burden for you so you're pulling information out and then
00:29:40
your partner might be saying well you know it's like the second shift for me I'm at work all day and then I have to
00:29:46
come home and clean the house Etc so I want to share that with you okay can you
00:29:53
empathize with her can you say ah no wonder you're probably pretty tired when
00:29:58
you come home right so you really do need my support is that what you're trying to tell me mhm that's the
00:30:06
Attunement you see I was going to say it's quite difficult isn't it because it often sounds like blame here's the
00:30:12
difference there's a big difference and this is what we saw in the lab also it
00:30:18
is blame when there's a lot of you in
00:30:23
what your partner is saying for example you never clean up the kitchen you are
00:30:30
too lazy to do any housework at the end of the day what about me you know Etc so
00:30:37
with that kind of blaming and criticism nobody nobody is going to feel like oh
00:30:44
you're absolutely right you're really mad at me because I've been a schmuck and I haven't been helping you with the
00:30:51
housework and that's what you're telling me no what people have to do when
00:30:57
they're unhappy about something is describe themselves I'm
00:31:03
upset that what's the situation describe the situation I'm upset that the kitchen
00:31:10
is a mess okay that the kitchen is a mess is a situation it's not saying
00:31:16
you're a bad person you see and then step three they need to say what their
00:31:23
positive need is which means how can your partner Shine for you don't tell
00:31:30
them what they they're not doing right or what you resent flip that on its head
00:31:37
and say I would love it if you would help me tonight with the dishes my
00:31:43
partner did that yesterday actually she um and I I noticed that she did it so basically she's in Costa Rica right now
00:31:49
doing a retreat and she sent me a text saying babe I love it when you tell me
00:31:54
how the podcast went after you finished recording it now there's several ways that someone could have said that she
00:32:01
could have said I hate it when you don't tell me for example that's right but she
00:32:06
said I love it when you tell me what she's telling me is to do it more and it I felt it to be really motivating that
00:32:13
I'll do it more so I started doing it more I started telling her sending her voice notes after the podcast but I've also seen it in relationships where it's
00:32:18
fra framed the it's trying to get the same outcome but it's framed in the opposite way it's negative it's I
00:32:23
suddenly feel like I'm on the back foot and I've done something wrong and I'm a child being told off by my mother or something right exactly and what is your
00:32:30
first response to that defensiveness uh uh deny it throw it back on them exactly
00:32:38
yep and that's one of the predictors you know a smaller predictor but still a
00:32:43
predictor of relationship unhappiness why does typical couple's therapy fail
00:32:51
John in your opinion well you know it's not failing very much anymore there are
00:32:57
some very good approaches now some behavioral approaches that are working pretty well and emotionally focused
00:33:03
therapy is working much better so things have improved um but I think typically
00:33:10
the reason that it fails is that the therapist doesn't really have the proper
00:33:15
tools for either assessing a relationship and most therapists don't do any assessment when a couple comes in
00:33:22
they don't look for you know what are the strengths in this relationship and what do I not need to work on and what
00:33:29
are the challenges that I really need to work on and not only don't they typically assess but once once they
00:33:36
start working with a couple they don't really have the tools as I heard with therapy it's all about listening you
00:33:43
know and the stat I'm I'm citing here is that um traditional couples therapy only had a 35 to 50% success rate right and
00:33:50
you typically think of therapy like you go there and your job is just to listen to your partner as they tell you what's
00:33:56
wrong yeah why doesn't that work because they're telling you typically what's
00:34:01
wrong with you and the therapist isn't stopping them isn't saying that's
00:34:08
criticism that's not going to work that is going to sabotage you getting listened to so try this instead try
00:34:17
telling your partner what you feel and what you need instead of describing your partner and what's wrong with him I
00:34:24
actually saw at a conference I'm not making this up somebody was training therapists and this this therapist who
00:34:31
was doing the training played a videotape in which a husband said to his
00:34:36
wife you know Sheila you're such a you only think about yourself and the
00:34:42
therapist said Sheila can you summarize and reflect back what Harry just said
00:34:49
and empathize with him I thought God you know what an idiot I
00:34:56
mean nobody can empathize with insult and put Downs you
00:35:02
know why isn't she constraining the way Harry's talking to Sheila not just
00:35:07
Sheila listening so I think a lot of times therapists really don't know how to use a tool they don't know what
00:35:14
really is appropriate what a good relationship looks like what a good relationship looks like I'm really Keen
00:35:20
to understand the principles of what successful couples do from your research you've highlighted a few of those things
00:35:25
I mean you've got the seven principles of success marriage what are some of the most important of those principles first
00:35:32
of all um we call the first principle building love Maps you need to keep
00:35:39
asking your partner open-ended questions to know who they are open-ended
00:35:45
questions are questions like so what characteristic would you like to
00:35:52
pass down from your family to our child or what would be your ideal way of
00:36:00
celebrating Ramadan or Christmas or whatever holiday so you're asking your
00:36:06
partner questions with answers that have paragraphs not a one-word answer in
00:36:12
order to keep in touch with who your partner is what their values are what
00:36:20
their priorities are what their needs are what their feelings are because
00:36:25
those change over time as you're together turning toward we talked about
00:36:31
that was super important expressing fondness and admiration is very
00:36:37
important so you can feel love and if
00:36:42
you don't tell your partner you love them or express it with touch which is
00:36:47
incredibly important then your partner may not be all that sure that you still do love
00:36:54
them 5 years down the road of course managing conflict is incredibly
00:36:59
important and that's where we've probably done our most significant work
00:37:05
but in addition to that it's honoring each other's dreams dreams meaning what are your
00:37:12
hopes and aspirations for the future they're not going to be compatible they're not necessarily going to be
00:37:18
identical it doesn't matter can you support your partner in realizing their
00:37:26
own dream and fulfilling that and finally creating shared meaning which
00:37:33
means every one of us is a philosopher we have our own ideas about what our
00:37:40
purpose in life is well do you tell your partner what that is for you and you
00:37:47
hear that from your partner that's the sharing that's needed and the weightbearing walls and
00:37:55
trust and commitment of course so trust builds over time and trust is
00:38:03
essentially answering the question will you be there for me in all kinds of
00:38:08
different situations will you be there for me when I'm sick when I'm depressed
00:38:14
when I want to celebrate a success when I'm frustrated will you be there for me
00:38:20
and nobody will be perfectly but the more the better so that's
00:38:25
trust and commit of course is are you
00:38:31
letting your partner know that this relationship is your journey for life
00:38:37
you are here for life not for you know the next three weeks and then you'll
00:38:43
think about it again why is having expressed dreams so important
00:38:52
because I often think that about sort of my relationship I think our dreams are not the same they're very different and
00:38:58
sometimes I wonder and I've wondered and I think we've both wondered in my relationship whether that is a big big
00:39:04
issue if it matters but why is it so important to express your dreams to your partner and do do they have to be
00:39:10
aligned okay number one they don't have to be aligned that's one of the big myths of all time you have to be
00:39:17
compatible you have to have the same dreams the same passions the same interest wrong wrong wrong that's not
00:39:25
true in fact often times were attracted to people who were different from us
00:39:30
what happens when the dreams are in Conflict though so if one partner's dreams is to live in Australia and the other partner's dream is to live on on
00:39:36
America you know there are certain situations where one person's dream is
00:39:42
the other person's Nightmare and they're they really don't have a compromise
00:39:49
that's possible so the one you described I had a couple like that where she lived
00:39:56
in Switzerland he lived in Uganda she had an autistic son and that autistic
00:40:02
son needed desperately a very good support system to help him cope with the
00:40:10
differences that he lived with every day so she wanted to stay in Switzerland he
00:40:16
worked for the government in Uganda he was making a contribution there he did
00:40:22
not want to move to Switzerland and she knew she wouldn't get the support for herself son in Uganda so they had
00:40:31
incompatible totally incompatible dreams but there was no compromise here so they
00:40:38
ended up breaking up but they knew why they were breaking up and it was for
00:40:44
good reason are some problems solvable then and some problems not solvable yeah
00:40:50
it turns out 69% of all problems are not solvable and just you know we're not
00:40:56
attracted to people who are like us and then once we get together we find those
00:41:03
differences although initially very Tractive pretty annoying you know so
00:41:08
it's really great that he's so spontaneous but then why can't he ever stick to a
00:41:14
plan you know and that becomes a source of irritation and unless people can
00:41:19
really be enriched by those differences and learn to accept the differences they're going to be in a lot of trouble
00:41:25
so when we looked at over time at what people fought about it was 69% of the
00:41:31
time it was the same issues and what you you call these Perpetual problems Perpetual problems yeah and once you
00:41:38
pick somebody to have a relationship with you've automatically inherited the problems you'll have for the next 50
00:41:43
years these are problems you can't solve really right but you can adapt to them
00:41:49
and laugh about them and compromise around the edges okay so what's an example of a Perpetual problem in your
00:41:55
relationship oh my my God okay so um
00:42:01
John first of all he's wearing you know a a Jewish yam he thinks this is a Halo
00:42:07
right so you know he's I he's always innocent okay so he calls
00:42:14
me obsessively compulsively neurotically tidy and he is charmingly sloppy okay so
00:42:23
we have a huge difference and so um here's how we've coped with it
00:42:29
because environment is not it's just not important for him and for me it's super
00:42:36
important it will disorganize my mind if my environment is disorganized so when
00:42:43
things start to get to me there's too much mess too many papers books I can't make the bed because I'm trying to lean
00:42:50
over a 4ot tall pile of books and I may break my neck if I try to make the bed
00:42:56
so it gets to that point and then I'll say to him honey I really need you to
00:43:02
please clean up the books in the bedroom he'll say okay then he won't do it then
00:43:08
I'll ask the next week I'll say honey it's you know I'm I'm really wanting you
00:43:14
to clean this up please he said okay I will but then he has to I don't know do
00:43:20
something else so it doesn't happen week three I say to him
00:43:27
okay honey I've said this now twice I'm starting to get annoyed he'll say oh
00:43:35
okay all right I'll think I I'll figure out when I can do
00:43:40
it week four we're counting down I say okay
00:43:47
we've crossed the threshold I'm now Angry I really need you to clean up the
00:43:52
books now please and I become a pushy Jewish Broad that's what happens and he
00:44:00
goes oh and he says okay okay because I'm
00:44:06
bigger than he is and I had two older brothers and I'm really good at wrestling and stuff and so I clean it up
00:44:14
he cleans it up really fast it's pristine it's beautiful I savor it then
00:44:20
it starts over again so how do we is that the pathway to dealing with Perpetual problems is you just have to
00:44:27
like accept them that it's going to so here's the deal with Perpetual
00:44:33
problems we have a method for compromise we call it the bagel method or maybe the
00:44:40
donut method depending on your culture okay so in an inner circle you think
00:44:47
about or you write down what can you not compromise on in terms of your position
00:44:54
your position on this issue what what can you not it would be like giving up
00:44:59
the bones of your body or that core dream you have that is so Central to
00:45:06
your identity that you got to hold on to that then in an Outer Circle you write
00:45:13
down what you're more flexible about and those are typically when something will
00:45:20
happen who will do it where it will happen how much will it cost how long will it last those nitty-gritty Det
00:45:27
details you share what you've written down in both circles with your partner
00:45:33
and you look at the flexible areas around each of your positions on the
00:45:38
issue and you try to reach a compromise regarding those
00:45:44
flexible points of view while still honoring each other's inner core dream
00:45:51
or core need but you must want to change that about John right you must want to change of course I want to change it but
00:45:58
you know what John wouldn't be John if he was a tidy neat guy and after a time
00:46:07
it's just adorable it's funny and we have such a
00:46:13
wonderful relationship that it's hilarious and it's predictable you need
00:46:18
to talk about gridlocked Perpetual problems that's a whole different story that's a different story so gridlock is
00:46:24
when you cannot die dialogue about something because you hold so fast to
00:46:32
your own position on the issue that you really want to win this battle it's not
00:46:38
a matter of compromise you know you're right you want to win and the other person feels the same way then what you
00:46:47
try to talk without really listening to one another and understanding at a much
00:46:53
deeper level which is part of our work what really constitutes our partner's
00:47:00
position why they holding that position so strongly and with your understanding
00:47:08
comes more compassion if you don't have that understanding if you're trying to win you get gridlocked to the point
00:47:15
where every fight escalates to the ceiling you end up yelling or you shut
00:47:21
down shove it under the rug but you can feel it as you walk around the living room this this is I mean this is one of
00:47:27
the big problems in relationships John is that we often feel like our partner is trying to change Us in ways that we don't want to be changed that's right
00:47:33
and I often I've been in a relationship before past relationship where my
00:47:39
partner would say things that were an attempt to change me but in doing so she
00:47:46
was actually telling me that she didn't think I was good enough right oh you see what I'm saying sure well that's that's
00:47:52
the nature of gridlock conflict yeah and and part of what what we've done is
00:47:58
invent six questions that 87% of the time work to get people out of gridlock where they
00:48:05
they're asking these questions about what does this feel like what does this conversation feel like to you what is it
00:48:13
that you think I'm trying to change about you and that I don't think is good enough tell me how that feels and what's
00:48:21
your ideal dream of how we should talk about things you know and where does that come from and you know where is it
00:48:28
that you feel unaccepted by me so if you can have that conversation a lot of times you develop the sense of
00:48:36
understanding and then you can compromise about the gridlock this year one of the recurring things I've had in relationships is I'm very involved with
00:48:43
technology in my work so sometimes it's felt in relationships that I've had that the person is trying to take my work
00:48:50
away from me so because they're always complaining that I'm on my phone or I'm on my laptop or whatever thinking like
00:48:58
they they're trying to change me in a way that I'm unwilling to change I'm not I I love my work I want to I want that
00:49:04
to be a big part of my life right how how do I go about solving for that so
00:49:09
and that person wants you to do away with the technology some of the time
00:49:14
right that's how it feels yeah that's how it feels okay so you need to have a
00:49:19
conversation where each of you interviews the other person and asks
00:49:26
asks six questions let me go through those just really quickly what are your
00:49:32
beliefs values and ethics that are part of your position on this issue you know
00:49:37
wanting to stay with the technology do you have some background or childhood history that relates to your
00:49:44
position why is this so important to you what do you feel about your position
00:49:51
here what is your ideal dream here what do you really wish for if the world could be just like you wanted it
00:49:58
regarding this issue what would it look like and is there some life purpose or
00:50:03
goal in this for you that is really important as you answer those questions
00:50:10
Stephen she's gaining an inside look into what's deepest and most important
00:50:17
to you regarding this issue then then you ask her the same questions exactly
00:50:25
the same ones to understand where she's coming from right and what that creates
00:50:34
is much more understanding and compassion for one another about why
00:50:40
each position is so important to that particular partner then you try to work on
00:50:48
compromise like I described interesting but those questions are
00:50:54
fundamental if you just just argue on the surface you're not going to get
00:51:00
anywhere you're going to stay gridlocked I love my work I want to do my work period Well does she know why your work
00:51:07
is so important to you what life purpose that is serving for you does she know
00:51:14
that way down at the core of who you are in your research you discovered
00:51:19
something which has become pretty iconic when we talk about relationships and conflict which is this idea of the Four
00:51:25
Horsemen um you found that during conflict couples who show four key behaviors mean that an argument is
00:51:31
doomed and it's the worst way of arguing I like really nothing can be gained beyond that point John what are the four
00:51:38
horsemen and how was this discovered yeah it you know Bob levenson and I uh
00:51:46
first looked at just the ratio of positivity to negativity and a conflict discussion and the first thing we
00:51:53
discovered was that among the Masters that ra IO was 5 to1 or higher and among
00:51:59
the disaster couples it was 8 average 8 to1 what does that mean sorry 5 to1 so
00:52:05
if you take the number of seconds that they're show displaying interest curiosity affection humor uh shared
00:52:13
humor validation listening to One Another uh you know saying things like
00:52:19
no tell me more oh wow oh good point you know things like that and you divide
00:52:25
that by the number of seconds that they're angry upset you know disappointed hurt critical defensive
00:52:32
belligerent you know all these negative ways these hostile ways of interacting that ratio of positivity to negativity
00:52:39
was 5 to one or higher among relationships that work well during conflict during the conflict yeah so but
00:52:47
the second thing we wanted to know is well are all negatives equally corrosive
00:52:52
you know and the ones that were the most corrosive really involved that person
00:52:57
starting off and saying you know as far as I can tell I'm pretty much fine but you're defective here's what's wrong
00:53:04
with you and they started with this criticism that they thought was constructive criticism you know and they
00:53:10
hoped their partner would respond by saying you know God you're so insightful you know tell me more about how I'm
00:53:17
failing but instead what they got was defensiveness Counterattack or the
00:53:22
innocent victim posture and that was that was the second Horsemen of the Apocalypse the third one was contempt
00:53:30
and that was the worst that was the best predictor of relationship breakup of all
00:53:35
that criticism from a place of superiority I'm better than you you know
00:53:41
I you know I I correct your grammar even when you're angry or you know I think I'm more punctual and that's really
00:53:47
important or I'm tidier than you are or I'm better informed than you are that
00:53:53
sort of snobbery that you know looking down on their partner may I add
00:53:59
something go ahead with contempt also you've got things like name calling you
00:54:04
know calling people bad names sarcasm mockery sarcasm can have a real Cutting
00:54:12
Edge it can be funny but then it crosses over into hurt and the fourth Horseman
00:54:18
is stonewalling which was particularly a guy thing to do 85% of the time guys
00:54:23
with Stonewall they just shut down and they don't give these cues to the
00:54:29
speaker that they're listening they're not nodding their heads or moving their facial muscles or uttering these
00:54:35
vocalizations like oh you know not doing that they're just kind of shut down and
00:54:41
look away and you know when we found those people's physiology is really
00:54:47
elevated so it wasn't about whether couples were arguing or not because we typically think a relationship is doomed
00:54:52
if the couple are like screaming at each other again it depends on your definition okay so screaming at each other is one
00:55:01
form of argument and there are certain couples that are volatile where both partners
00:55:08
are volatile they're very passionate they're very intense they may raise their
00:55:13
voices but depending on what's coming out of their mouths is it criticism is
00:55:19
it contempt is it defensiveness if it's any of those it's not going to work but
00:55:25
you can also scream I'm so Furious about this still describing yourself that's
00:55:33
not going to be a bad thing why is it men you said talked about stonewalling there where you kind of shut down and
00:55:39
you you kind of go within yourself and ignore why is it that men do that more than women well what I think is that we
00:55:46
men are much more easily physiologically aroused and the differences are that we
00:55:53
secrete phasal oppression and women secrete oxytocin much more than
00:55:59
vasopressin and so for us we get once we get physiologically aroused it takes us
00:56:05
a long time to calm down and most of what we feel when we get physiologically
00:56:11
aroused is anger and aggression and we want to shut our partner down we're much
00:56:16
more aggressive than women are and so we shut ourselves down you know and when
00:56:23
you look at the dialogue that people have in their minds when they're stonewalling it's usually stuff like
00:56:29
just shut up and don't say anything you know I you know you always make it worse
00:56:35
when you say something so just be quiet endure this and that's kind of a male
00:56:41
response do men have more of a physiological response to arguments are you like the sweating palms and the
00:56:46
blood pressure you know through Evolution women have been responsible
00:56:52
for nurturing an infant in order to do that you have to have a milk letdown
00:56:59
response right through Evolution so here's what I mean let's say you know
00:57:06
we're back 3,000 years right there's no formula in a can so women are
00:57:12
breastfeeding their infants in order for that breast milk to come down and in in
00:57:18
order to be released to the infant oxytocin is really important oxytocin
00:57:26
calms you down it relaxes you if you're very tense and uptight milk isn't going
00:57:33
to come down at all so women have the
00:57:40
physiology in which to relax more easily men on the other hand through Evolution
00:57:47
have been the protectors right so if there's a sabertooth tiger attacking a
00:57:53
group of people who's going to jump up and defend against that tiger well the
00:57:59
men are typically so men's bodies are really
00:58:05
built to stay vigilant and hypervigilant especially for attack well that attack
00:58:13
doesn't have to be physical it can also be mental emotional verbal and men will
00:58:20
have the same response we're talking about flooding here aren't we the concept talking about flooding yeah what
00:58:26
flooding John so flooding is really going into fight or flight it's it's
00:58:32
when we start secreting cortisol and adrenaline are two major stress hormones
00:58:37
and when we feel attacked when we feel unsafe you know we start secreting these
00:58:42
stress hormones and there are implications psychological implications
00:58:49
of being physiologically flooded you can't take in new information you rely
00:58:54
on overlearned habits it's like aggression or flight you know you you
00:59:00
can't listen very well you actually your hearing is compromised your peripheral vision is compromised you focus only on
00:59:08
the cues you need to survive the moment and so it's you you don't wind up being
00:59:14
a very creative Problem Solver or a good listener when you're flooded if men flood more than women does this go to
00:59:21
explain why men tend to avoid arguments more than women cuz I think that's a
00:59:26
stereotype at least that men are much more avoidant in arguments I think I mean it's a stereotype that holds true
00:59:32
to me I've never been sure whether it's because we're not good at expressing our emotions or if there's a physiological
00:59:38
reaction in me that's making me go 80% of the time women are the ones bringing up issues in a relationship now when
00:59:46
guys bring up the issues sometimes the women get flooded too so it's not that women don't get flooded you know yeah
00:59:53
they're a little better at self soothing than we are are but you know during during an argument if a woman gets
00:59:59
flooded she really can't listen also and she repeats herself as well gets more
01:00:06
strident you know if I'm flooded then typical advice tells me John it says
01:00:13
never fall asleep if you and your partner have been arguing about something yeah what is the best I get flooded sometimes what is the best way
01:00:19
for me to deal with that if it's late at night you should go to sleep go to sleep angry I mean St Paul
01:00:26
was the one who started that and he wasn't married you know so it's you know
01:00:31
it sounds like great advice but if it's going to keep you up and you know you're going to get a terrible night's sleep
01:00:38
you know shake hands and go to bed give each other a quick kiss and go to bed
01:00:44
angry what did he start St Paul what did St Paul start never go to bed wrathful I
01:00:51
think is what his advice was for couples and that's wrong
01:00:56
yeah okay so if I if I'm in the middle of an argument and I feel like I'm a little bit flooded my maybe my Palms are
01:01:02
a little bit sweaty I should take a time out is what you're saying Julie yeah let's talk about that um so if you're
01:01:09
feeling flooded um you really need to take a break but there's specific steps
01:01:17
to do that one uh if you're flooded you say I need to take a break you don't say you do I
01:01:25
need to take a break and say when you'll come back to continue the conversation if you do that then your
01:01:33
partner is not going to feel abandoned and rejected you go apart for maybe 30
01:01:39
minutes an hour however long maximum 24 hours and you don't think about the
01:01:46
fight don't plan your rebuttal because that'll keep you
01:01:51
flooded as long as you keep thinking about the fight so do something s soothing like reading a book reading a
01:01:59
magazine working out maybe going for a run get on your computer get on your computer do your email don't watch
01:02:07
murder mysteries that's not a good thing to do so come back at the designated
01:02:13
time when hopefully your body is a lot calmer and continue the
01:02:19
conversation but you know a generally consistent result is that
01:02:25
women tend to be more Unhappily Married than men
01:02:30
guys often think everything's fine oh my God so
01:02:36
true I actually had this conversation with a former partner where I said and I shouldn't have said it but I just going
01:02:41
to be honest I said to her in our relationship I think if you never raised
01:02:46
an issue I think there'd never be an issue because I just felt like everything was always fine and every week she was coming to me with a problem
01:02:55
and had she not come to me with that problem I think and I might be bsing myself here I think the relationship
01:03:01
would have just been great right that's how it felt and and you know women have have a lot more depression than men do
01:03:07
as well you know so I I think in a lot of ways the world is harder for women
01:03:14
the world's a more dangerous place for women for example the probability that a woman will be physically or sexually
01:03:21
assaulted in her lifetime is 40% it's 9% from men in the United States I think
01:03:27
it's harder to be a woman than it is to be a man I've sometimes rebutted myself Julie when I talk when I say what I just
01:03:33
said about our relationship would be fine if she never brought issues up
01:03:39
because when I zoom out and I go the issues she's brought up have they made our relationship better and had she not
01:03:45
brought them up would we have drifted and I say probably M see what I'm saying like I feel like my partner has always
01:03:53
played a role in keeping our relationship close the caretaker yeah yes is that a real thing yeah that
01:04:00
totally is a real thing what we saw in the research is that 80% of the time
01:04:05
women bring up the problems in a relationship 80% you know vast majority
01:04:12
and I think it's because again women you know we talked about how men are raised
01:04:18
in society well women are raised in society to nurture to create connection
01:04:25
contion to maintain the family unit right to create relationship and make
01:04:31
sure the relationship is good and solid and secure so we were raised with
01:04:38
feeling that responsibility for the relationship being good and when we detect something isn't so good we're
01:04:45
going to bring it up and that's what causes a lot of the frustration is that we we don't realize we don't have
01:04:51
empathy for how the other person is playing a role in creating whole almost
01:04:57
that make sense because I I understand as I said my relationship wouldn't be as good if my partner didn't bring up
01:05:03
issues but when she brings up issues I'm like why are you bringing up issues you know what I mean and it's that having
01:05:09
that empathy sure but again um is she bringing up issues in a way that doesn't
01:05:16
feel blaming or critical to be honest to her she is
01:05:24
she's bringing them up pretty well great it's the way that I'm kind of interpreting it yeah yeah I think much
01:05:30
of the problem well easy you know that happens easily to all of us because you
01:05:36
know we've got these this baggage in our background that has created filters in
01:05:42
how we hear things how we perceive things I have a hero on one of these
01:05:48
videotapes there was a lawyer and this videotape he's helping his wife identify
01:05:54
what in his person personality really makes her the most angry and he's helping her do that he's saying well is
01:06:01
it is it the way I talk is that it and she says yeah it's the way you talk but what what is it about the way you talk I
01:06:07
mean is it what you know do I sound what authoritarian or yes like the King has
01:06:13
spoken and he says yeah well you know I can I guess I am like that sometimes works in the courtroom and she says well
01:06:20
it doesn't work with me you know and he says well that makes sense he's my hero he just never gets defensive he's saying
01:06:27
tell me more tell me more wow what a guy Julie what do we misunderstand about
01:06:33
conflict because you know I've come to believe that the key to understanding if a relationship will be successful over the long term is how well the the pair
01:06:41
resolve conflict is that right wrong well clearly uh as we said because 69%
01:06:50
of all problems are Perpetual they are not going to be solved so if you rely on
01:06:56
seeing problems getting solved as an indicator of the success of the relationship it's not going to look good
01:07:03
right so you know what I think what we need to understand about
01:07:10
conflict that we've written about in our last book is that if we apply the dictum
01:07:19
of really understanding our partner and their point of view before before we
01:07:26
work on trying to resolve the problem we're going to do much better conflict also gets a really bad
01:07:34
WP you know conflict you're not supposed to have conflicts it means if you have a
01:07:40
relationship with a lot of conflict that means it's a bad relationship total myth
01:07:45
that is not true what we've seen is that couples who do fight but they fight
01:07:53
right as we wrote about with the tools that are
01:07:59
describing their own feelings and needs rather than blaming the partner then
01:08:05
they're going to really understand each other so much better as the underlying
01:08:12
dreams within the conflict come out the underlying family history comes out the
01:08:19
life purpose comes out think about those big questions in the heart of a
01:08:26
conflict that if they are understood oh my God you know so much more about your
01:08:32
partner than you did before conflict how do I become great at conflict and is
01:08:38
that really what I should be aiming at should I be aiming at getting becoming a master of conflict resolution I think so
01:08:44
you know it's not conflict resolution as much as it is conflict management and my
01:08:49
secret is that notebook in my back pocket you know so I get it out you know
01:08:54
when we have to talk about something important and I listen to what you're saying write it down is it in your
01:09:01
pocket now it's in my pocket now I'm thinking of getting one here it is I'm
01:09:07
thinking of getting one yeah it's really great you know and so like if I say to
01:09:12
her she's upset you know or she wants to talk about something important you know I'm listening I'm taking notes so you
01:09:18
know and as I'm writing stuff down it calms me down and I I'm writing it down
01:09:24
first first I'm saying why does she keep bringing up issues you know I didn't want to spend my evening this way but
01:09:31
then I go oh that's a good point that's that's interesting you know and I start
01:09:37
realizing that she makes a lot of sense is part of that moving the issue from your amydala to your prefrontal cortex
01:09:43
I.E it's moving it from your emotional Center to your logical Center yeah yeah I really am CU that's that when you were
01:09:49
saying it I was like that would be you use the word it calms me down calms me down that would help calm me down as
01:09:55
well yeah sure when you're taking notes you know it's more an intellectual
01:10:00
process as opposed to an emotional process right so it takes you out of
01:10:05
that emotionally getting stirred up by what your partner is saying and into
01:10:10
just processing the words the language writing it down which keeps you calm I
01:10:17
one time I filled up an entire yellow pad wow she said I want to talk to you
01:10:23
and this I haven't talked to about this ever and but I need you to really be
01:10:29
quiet and listen and I just kept writing stuff down did he listen Julie when on
01:10:34
that occasion he really did it was phenomenal and the wonderful thing that
01:10:40
you will discover if you take notes to is that it it makes your partner feel
01:10:46
valued feel important feel like whatever they're saying is worth noting down
01:10:53
right it blew my mind I had no idea she felt that those things it's important to you it's important to you it's so
01:11:01
important that you're going to take notes on it my partner often says to me halfway through an argument she says do
01:11:08
you understand what I'm saying you know and she and I and that's quite a curious question because I guess
01:11:14
they're checking to see if yeah you've heard and understood them which clearly is so important and that's a good way of
01:11:20
indicating that you do understand or at least you're you know you're hearing and understanding mhm then you can say well
01:11:26
here's what I understand and then you know sometimes I'll do that Julie said
01:11:32
no that's not it what what is it I thought I was hearing you oh you know and oh I missed
01:11:39
that repair attempts you write about repair attempts in your books what is a repair attempt John you know here's the
01:11:46
interesting thing is that most people don't repair very effectively the way an
01:11:52
argument starts is the way it'll go 96% % of the time so uh I had this woman
01:11:58
named Nancy draus who came to my lab and she had written a book of things you can
01:12:04
say when you're starting to get flooded in an argument it was brilliant book it's called talk to me like I'm someone
01:12:10
you love and it was really interesting but she had written these things down
01:12:15
when she was very calm and she wrote the book that way but we actually went to the lab and looked at how do couples
01:12:22
actually repair when they try to repair and what we found was that any thing
01:12:29
that you would do in a business meeting will fail in a love relationship let's
01:12:34
take a look at our options and evaluate them what are our priorities here what's
01:12:40
our fundamental goal let's be rational about this let's be rational about this
01:12:45
let's evaluate the costs of one option versus another doomed and the only thing that worked
01:12:52
with somebody would say you know God you know I'm sorry I I said that you know
01:12:58
let let me try again or they would say you know um I'm really starting to feel
01:13:04
defensive could you could you say that a gentler way and those kinds of repairs that focused on emotion they worked and
01:13:11
the earlier they made them in the conversation the more effective they were so these are attempts to repair the
01:13:18
relationship or the argument from one side of the argument jul right yes in the middle of the conversation so if one
01:13:25
one person senses it's getting off track to get it back on track they may say one
01:13:32
of these repair phrases but if the repair is going to be successful the
01:13:38
other person has to accept the repair so if John is saying to me hey I'm starting
01:13:44
to feel defensive can you say that you know in a gentler way I could either say no way forget it
01:13:53
you deserve all the criticism which is rejecting the repair or I could
01:13:59
say ah you're right let me let me try again and say it a different way that's
01:14:05
accepting it but there's also repair after an argument that has felt horrible
01:14:13
and then how do you process and repair that terrible communication you had
01:14:19
that's a whole another that's what I was to say of course it was here
01:14:26
right we're telepathic yeah so that coming back to it we have a method for
01:14:31
doing that a five-step method for revisiting a really regrettable incident
01:14:38
that may have happened in the relationship when you're calmer and and that's very effective what is that fight
01:14:46
please give it to me yeah let me that okay so it we actually have a little
01:14:51
booklet that has all this structured out that a lot of people keep in their glove
01:14:57
compartment because some for some reason arguments happen when you're going 70 M
01:15:02
an hour down the freeway right never fails so pull out the book okay in the booklet the first step is each person
01:15:11
addresses a list of emotions that we've printed out and says out loud which
01:15:17
emotion they had during this regrettable incident first of all and they can name
01:15:24
as many as they want and there are things like hurt angry abandoned rejected and so on secondly each person
01:15:32
has a chance to describe their point of view about what happened from beginning
01:15:38
to end of this incident while the other person here we go again takes
01:15:45
notes so at the end of the person's narration they then summarize what they
01:15:52
heard that person say to make sure they got all the good points and then says something validating like okay from your
01:16:01
point of view I can see why you felt that way the way it's narrated is
01:16:08
crucial it it sounds like I felt that you were angry at me I saw this angry
01:16:15
look at your face I heard you say leave me alone and get out of here I heard I
01:16:22
saw I felt mhm I imagined so it's all about I it's not
01:16:29
saying you said this mean thing to me which is critical all right so each
01:16:35
person has a chance to share their perception that way and their partner
01:16:41
summarizes and validates what they heard third people look at did I have any
01:16:47
feelings during this that were actual triggers that were feelings that got
01:16:52
started long before this relationship in another relationship
01:16:58
maybe or even at home with my caretakers or my family if those feelings got
01:17:04
triggered again here and now then you share what feeling got triggered which
01:17:11
we call an enduring vulnerability and say where it may have gotten started before this
01:17:17
relationship that's step three step four you're finally taking responsibility for
01:17:25
what you contributed to this regrettable incident by saying what was your state
01:17:30
of mind when it happened I was really stressed I needed time alone you know
01:17:36
Etc and then specifically saying what you regret saying or doing during the
01:17:43
incident and apologizing for it now note how late the apology is coming you're
01:17:49
not aping right away because that doesn't work you don't know what you're
01:17:54
apologizing for if you haven't first heard the impact of that incident on
01:18:01
your partner so step four is apologizing and then hopefully your partner accepts
01:18:07
your apology and finally step five is saying one thing your partner can do
01:18:13
differently one thing you can do differently to avoid something like this
01:18:18
from happening again then you're done the repair attempts somewhat sounded like I was going to say backing down but
01:18:25
it was more like taking an object one of you taking an objective view on the situation and kind of stepping outside
01:18:31
and saying I'm feeling like this it's almost like you're like stepping out of the video game grabbing the controller
01:18:37
versus being in the video game is that kind of like an accurate description I think so yeah yeah cuz sometimes that
01:18:43
does happen in my relationships where my partner will almost take a meta analysis on the situation and
01:18:48
go I'm not feeling this or I sorry uh I like take a meta approach they
01:18:55
almost like step outside and give a commentary and that diffuses it I don't think you're listening to me something like that yeah well they got to be
01:19:03
careful about that they have to be careful they shouldn't be number one analyzing you and where you're coming
01:19:09
from and they shouldn't be blaming you're not listening to me shouldn't do that but if they say I'm not feeling
01:19:17
listened to right now yeah let me try again yeah that's great interesting what
01:19:23
about sex and Intimacy in these subjects what have you learned about the role of
01:19:30
kissing in the love lab interesting yeah I mean you know we haven't done a lot of
01:19:36
research on sex we we did some in that newlywed study cuz sex had gone down
01:19:43
dramatically for most couples uh even three years after the first baby was
01:19:48
born and so we're asking people how did they cope how did they keep sex alive but the biggest study done on this
01:19:55
question was done uh in a book that came out called the normal bar uh Christiano
01:20:02
North is the first author of that and they analyze 70,000 people in 24
01:20:10
countries and try to discern what's different about people who say they have a great sex life and people who say they
01:20:17
have an awful sex life how are those two groups of people different and they discovered that it was the same across
01:20:22
the whole planet and and there are really about a dozen things that people do have a great sex life and saying I
01:20:31
love you every day and meaning it is one of them giving compliments uh romantic gifts having a
01:20:41
lot of touch cuddling so of the people who don't cuddle only 4% of them said
01:20:47
they had a great sex life 96% of the non- cuddlers had an awful sex life so
01:20:53
touch is very important important even physical touch even in public affection in public was a big thing and really you
01:21:01
know that kind of connection the romantic date you know the Romantic vacation that's what they did so nothing
01:21:09
involved kissing or what happened in the bedroom so none of that is there but
01:21:15
there has been research on just kissing and it turns out that not every culture
01:21:21
do humans kiss but in the ones they do kiss is very powerful very erotic for
01:21:26
most most couples and it's a nice Gateway into eroticism I found this
01:21:33
really interesting study um in your work where it said a 10-year German study that found that right said again you can
01:21:39
repeat the study better than I can men who kiss their wives goodbye when they leave for work live something like four
01:21:46
years longer than men who don't so and that's a Priory kiss you know don't
01:21:51
forget Sten they're getting mured being muted but the sixc kiss which we
01:21:59
recommend has much more potential than that pick on the she cheek what is the sixc kiss a kiss that lasts at least six
01:22:06
seconds why not five or four because uh oxytocin gets secreted with a 20 second
01:22:13
hug or a 6C kiss you're both secreting oxytocin and that creates a sense of
01:22:20
psychological safety and connection and bonding and bonding what what do you think about the subject of um sex Julie
01:22:28
and you know how important it is for a relationship how much should we be having sex does it really matter is it a
01:22:34
predictor of long-term success in marriage great questions um that my clients ask me a lot and there's huge
01:22:42
variability in sexual preference some couples actually don't want to have sex
01:22:49
at all both people don't want to have sex they'd rather have kind of a sibling relationship ship almost if they're both
01:22:56
content with that then they can have a very successful relationship some
01:23:02
couples really want to have sex a lot you know all the time and it's a really
01:23:08
important component of the relationship uh and everything in
01:23:13
between when you run into trouble is the following and I've seen this so many
01:23:19
times the men who I guess I would say are hyper master Uline they think that
01:23:27
cuddling is too infantile so they don't want to cuddle and the only way they can
01:23:35
accept physical contact which they desperately need is through sex period
01:23:41
penetrative sex penetrative sex that's right and the woman has 17 children
01:23:48
she's trying to make dinner you know she's exhausted um she may not want to have
01:23:53
sex near nearly as much as he does so he begins to feel deprived of touch but
01:24:00
instead of complaining about that he says we're not having enough sex and she says I'm not getting enough
01:24:08
affection and there you have you know some conflict that has to get sorted out
01:24:15
it's like they're speaking two different languages of intimacy you what I mean basically in a sense they are they are
01:24:22
though typically the in these relationships really basically need
01:24:29
touch and can they accept cuddling as something that's just as masculine as
01:24:36
penetrative sex well if they really think about it and
01:24:41
if they experience it then yeah you C they can then things really will tend to
01:24:47
improve the research there John is suggesting though as you said that life is foreplay because if like the the
01:24:55
kissing on the way out the door and the touching my partner's back and the cuddle leads to a better sex life then
01:25:01
we should see life public displays of affection all that kind of thing as an investment in what happens tonight in
01:25:07
the bedroom right I think that's really true every positive thing you do in a relationship is foreplay and the couples
01:25:15
who a lot of times the couples who stop having sex have also shut down high
01:25:20
conflict couples of stuff having sex have shut down other things other sensual parts of
01:25:27
their lives as well you know they're not having much fun and you know 80% of the
01:25:33
40,000 couples we studied said that fun had come to die in the relationship
01:25:39
there was much play there wasn't much Adventure it wasn't just sex everything
01:25:44
shut down all the things that were really delightful you know exploring new kinds of Cuisine you know traveling
01:25:53
uh playing games together you know playing sports together how do we stop
01:25:58
that happening though you know because I've often wondered people often said to me that eroticism and attraction is
01:26:06
about novelty and spontaneousness and doing all that kind of thing and then they've said that love is about
01:26:12
familiarity and you know Comfort which are these are two opposite things let me
01:26:18
answer that the person who said that it's all about spontaneity and mystery
01:26:24
at so on has never done any research the research shows that the
01:26:33
familiarity the emotional connection really knowing your partner creates in
01:26:40
the long run much more passion what much better sex actually than maintaining
01:26:50
mystery but not really connecting to one another the way people need to there's a
01:26:57
wonderful book by Emily ngosi called come as you are that reviews This research and it shows that first of all
01:27:05
women have more prerequisites for eroticism than men do Jeffy Chase once
01:27:10
said women need a reason for sex men need a place that's all so you know but
01:27:16
it's true men men don't need to feel safe to feel
01:27:23
sexual women do women need to feel psychologically safe and that means
01:27:29
emotional connection it also means there can't be a long to-do list of things
01:27:34
that they have to get done that's been neglected the dog's been taken out you know and has done his business and all
01:27:42
of that and then the situation feels erotic to a woman and she's receptive
01:27:48
let me point out something in addition to that that most men don't know at least in the United States one out of
01:27:57
four women have been sexually molested or sexually assaulted by the age of
01:28:05
18 and that's only the women who report it it's probably one out of three maybe
01:28:13
40% including the ones who haven't reported it so when women have that
01:28:22
history not not to mention thousands of years in their bones of being seen only
01:28:29
as sex objects and being raped you know every other day you get to understand why women need
01:28:38
safety much more so than men yeah we wrote a book called The Man's Guide to
01:28:44
women to convey all of these bits of information that have been researched so
01:28:51
familiarity is the basis for AIC not for the absence of a rism that's a
01:28:58
myth so I've heard a lot about epigenetics recently which is this idea that trauma can be passed on from one
01:29:04
one generation to the next and with that in mind if women have been sort of sex objects throughout history and have been
01:29:10
raped and those kinds of things it's understandable that as you say Julie that they have like an inbuilt need for
01:29:16
safety that men might not understand in the same way exactly which what what does that say for to a man what advice
01:29:22
do you then give to a man is is the advice you have to make your partner feel safe for them to be aroused or to
01:29:28
okay yes what else was in that book by the way it's quite an interesting book I feel like I need to read it yeah it's well you know it's really that awareness
01:29:34
of emotional connection and psychological safety being so important to women and also realizing that men who
01:29:42
do housework get a lot more sex is that something Julie told you or
01:29:48
is that no that is it's actually an empirical result yeah but specifically
01:29:54
honey they have to do the vacuum in yeah and get the books off the bed interesting okay are you seeing a
01:30:02
difference in our relationship with sex um as the world is changing because
01:30:08
there's some stats that suggest we're getting more and more sexless as a as a society have you seen any changes in
01:30:15
your 50 years studying love towards attitudes about sex or you know gender roles have changed in that time as well
01:30:21
in society so you know I wouldn't say it's sexless but I would say it's
01:30:27
Loveless more Loveless in the sense uh you know again I don't know what it's
01:30:32
like in England or in other countries so much but in the United States the hookup
01:30:38
culture is a is you know alive and thriving there's so many websites in
01:30:44
which um men and men women and women men and women are just hooking up meaning
01:30:52
meeting up for the first time having sex and departing the end is that a
01:30:59
problem yes you know why because in that kind of sex there's no emotional
01:31:07
connection zero and I've heard this from both men and women actually that when
01:31:15
they leave they feel more empty than before they started having that sex what
01:31:22
do you think that is no emotional connection it's impersonal sex they
01:31:27
don't know who they're having sex with so you know it's almost like
01:31:32
masturbating practically so you know there's a lot of couples who are doing
01:31:38
that but they're they're not committing
01:31:43
in long-term relationships as much as they used to and I think there's several
01:31:51
factors involved in that one is they've seen their parents divorce so they don't
01:31:56
believe in marriage or commitment as an institution that they should live
01:32:02
to um secondly women have come into the workforce again in the last 50 years and
01:32:11
career is equally important to many women as it is to
01:32:17
Men on that point do you see issues with women becoming more successful in that
01:32:22
emasculating men to some degree because I read about a study that um said
01:32:29
there's an expectation in society for men to provide more at home financially
01:32:35
and then a separate study showed that um women and it women's sort of equality
01:32:41
with men in terms of their pay and education has is getting closer and then
01:32:47
the third study says that men can feel
01:32:52
emasculated in the presence of a smarter more successful women and they find it less attractive so if you put all this
01:32:58
together and you go okay women are getting richer and more intelligent um men are emasculated by that but men still have this ex social expectation
01:33:05
that they'll pay the bill in that framework you go Jesus Christ this is going to be difficult
01:33:10
for you know and you can look at it another way and say there's less of a pool for women who typically want to
01:33:17
date men that have a certain level of education and a certain level of money the pool is smaller than ever before so
01:33:22
is this you know this some of the issues of the the mo some of the challenges of the modern world you're right yeah
01:33:28
you're absolutely right about that the roles are really changing and um you
01:33:36
know I remember this feeling myself actually as I built my career and John
01:33:41
and I were together and I kept thinking no no no I should be a housewife I
01:33:46
should just be a mom I should just be taking care of the home I shouldn't be devoting all this time to my career but
01:33:53
I love my career I want to work and so there would be this turmoil inside about
01:34:00
who should I be and I think men are feeling that too for example as I said
01:34:06
earlier men are really wanting to be fathers more but how can you be an
01:34:11
involved father when you're working like crazy extra overtime to make more money
01:34:17
right it's impossible also those old myths have a hard time falling away that
01:34:26
men who make more money have more status have more value as human beings are
01:34:33
better Partners that's so more male are more male are more masculine it's so not
01:34:39
true another thing to keep in mind is that women used to make 79 cents for
01:34:47
every dollar that men made now they make 81
01:34:53
cents for every dollar you think that's a big change it is not so women are
01:35:00
still fighting for equality in terms of
01:35:06
career opportunities work opportunities and so on and valuing their
01:35:13
career men sometimes you know are struggling
01:35:19
who should I be now I used to be the provider who should I be well that's
01:35:25
what we've learned right cuz we come from a generation where like my father might have been the provider and my granddad was the provider so I've
01:35:31
modeled that and said well for me to be a man like my father and I need to be able to do this but that's right that's
01:35:37
right it's a good thing that we're getting closer to equality of course and I know the pay Gap is still there's still a distance there between men and
01:35:43
women but it it kind of you can see there being some kind of challenge for
01:35:49
men who now don't know their role but Society still has an expectation that they'll pick up the bill you bet it's a
01:35:57
difficult conundrum isn't it but it's well it's really hard on men you know I think men in many ways are having as
01:36:04
hard if not harder time now in figuring out what their role is and who they want
01:36:12
to be compared with women I mean our fight started earlier Right started in
01:36:18
the 70s with women's Liberation and Men kind of sat back and went what what's
01:36:24
happening I think I think men are discovering the importance of relationships you know uh we typically
01:36:31
have had worse emotional support systems you know uh many men don't don't have a
01:36:37
best friend don't have close friends and their only con really close connection
01:36:43
is with the woman that they live with and or married to and so I think men are
01:36:48
discovering how important social connection is in their lives compareed
01:36:54
to achievement you know I mean there's this lie that got sold to women that if they really
01:37:01
are the caretakers of relationships they'll be happy the lie to men is if
01:37:07
you are successful in your career you'll be happy neither neither lie is really
01:37:13
useful because both men and women need close connections they need we need
01:37:18
friends we need you know there's an epidemic of loneliness you know in the world right now and that's a killer we
01:37:26
really need to reach out more not only to make good friends but also reach out
01:37:32
to strangers create community and that needs to change you know what's really
01:37:38
interesting I mean just think about it if you go on the internet and you look
01:37:44
at what women are looking for in a partner what's the first word they say
01:37:51
they don't say rich they don't say highly successful great
01:37:58
achievements typically they say sensitive right sensitive emotionally
01:38:05
aware caring so hopefully men can absorb that
01:38:14
is that it's interesting because they do say that yeah and then they also say
01:38:20
strong and they say um can protect me and and again it feels like a pole
01:38:26
because on one end it appears that that sort of sensitive emotional openness at somewhat sensing contrast to like
01:38:35
the it's like how do I very well you have a very lucky part those people
01:38:41
probably listening don't even know what I did but I was just flexing my guns it was the gun show so like you see what I'm saying it feels like a contradiction
01:38:46
it's like how you be the this and this the testosterone filled beasts that's going to save the day and then the true
01:38:53
but keep in mind that being strong doesn't mean being
01:39:00
unemotional sometimes it takes more strength and courage to voice emotion
01:39:06
than it does to shut them down and what they're talking about you know let's not
01:39:12
forget that women are still getting raped still getting assaulted still getting attacked everywhere still
01:39:20
getting murdered right so they want a man allegedly who can physically protect
01:39:28
them for sure that would feel great because women still feel
01:39:35
unsafe however that doesn't necessarily correlate with being
01:39:40
unemotional I guess the contradiction goes both ways because men also want a woman that is you know compassionate and
01:39:47
soft but they also wanted to just be like to not not be emotional and not keep that so it's like a contradiction
01:39:52
both ways yeah yeah yeah we want everything right all at once and that's part of the problem just closing off on
01:39:59
this point about sex cuz I had one last question which is does the research show that couples that have the best sex life
01:40:04
talk about it the most yes I had this debate with my friend and I was wondering yes no question coupl who talk
01:40:10
about it have a better sex life and how should they be talking about it give me some advice on how to talk about sex with my partner you need to talk about
01:40:17
it in a way that is uh accepting and loving you know so you talk about what's
01:40:22
really great in the relationship what you've enjoyed what you love about your partner what you find sexy about your
01:40:29
partner what you wish for more of you know and right we have we created what
01:40:36
we call got sex it's isn't that a I we didn't think
01:40:41
of the title I promise so it's it's a kit that includes seven different uh
01:40:49
structured conversations to have with your partner about sex that have to do with what do you prefer
01:40:58
specifically uh how would you like sex to be initiated when would you like it
01:41:03
initiated how can we refuse sex without massacring each other's
01:41:08
egos how should sex be completed Etc so
01:41:14
the couples who talk much more openly and more comfortably about that do much
01:41:19
better sexually and for love Maps we have 100 questions you can ask a man
01:41:25
about his erotic world and 100 questions you can ask a woman about her erotic world and they're not the same questions
01:41:32
men and women h of well just people generally even in sort of homosexual relationships and heterosexual relationships have very different
01:41:38
fantasies yeah often linked to their trauma where wherever they come from whatever what happens in a relationship
01:41:43
when one partner isn't willing to do the fantasy that the other partner is really
01:41:49
craving how how does one navigate that well couple of ways one is the person
01:41:55
who's not willing to do it can maybe describe it verbally because couples who
01:42:03
talk more during sex actually have better sexual relationships too so if
01:42:11
the partner who doesn't want to do what the other wants at least describes it
01:42:17
verbally Whispering it in some kind of really cool tone well the guy can get
01:42:23
off on that or the woman can get off on that right I'm imagining you're a
01:42:28
cheerleader right now and I'm the football player and I'm 6'4 not 5 foot s for all
01:42:37
the businesses and entrepreneurs out there listening if I asked you which platform you think gives you the highest return for your paid ads what do you
01:42:44
think you'd say the answer might surprise you and that is LinkedIn ads who I'm happy to say are now a sponsor
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I highly recommend you check it out I'm giving the doac community a $100 credit for your first LinkedIn campaign just
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head to linkedin.com doac 24 to get started right now let's
01:43:38
talk about Zoe who you may know because they're a sponsor of this podcast and I'm an investor in the company you guys
01:43:44
know health is my number one priority Zoe's growth story has been absolutely incredible so far they're doing science
01:43:50
at a scale that I've never seen before because of their members and recent breakthroughs and research they can now
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ceo1 for 10% off don't tell anybody about that okay just for you guys the
01:44:30
love lab Research indicates that betrayal lies at the heart of every failed relationship this was in your
01:44:36
book the seven principles of of making marriage work betrayal there are a lot
01:44:41
of ways to really betray a partner in a relationship I mean you know cheating is
01:44:47
one way but any kind of betrayal is something that needs to be healed in a
01:44:53
relationship for example if you've uh teamed up with somebody in your family
01:44:58
against your partner uh at some point that may feel like a betrayal um you
01:45:03
know and it doesn't have to be sexual but it's something that needs to be healed because trust and commitment are
01:45:09
so important as the Bedrock of every relationship if I was to say tell me the
01:45:16
exact you know in your love lab two c a couple walk in and they they're there for 24 hours in your love lab and you're
01:45:22
studying them can you roleplay the behavior that a couple who
01:45:27
are destined to fail would exhibit oh
01:45:32
yes how many ways can we do that okay God these crossover puals are really
01:45:39
hard H you know I'm really sick and tired of
01:45:46
you always paying attention to your stupid crossw word puzzles they're just
01:45:51
they're such a waste of time I don't know why you do that it's it's just
01:45:57
stupid yeah well I I I think they're too challenging for you intellectually that's why you avoid them
01:46:04
what are you talking about I could do that with almost my eyes CL I never see you do crossover puzzle because it's
01:46:09
stupid activity why would I want to do it I think I think you're avoiding it because you're avoiding challenges in
01:46:15
your life you do that in every phase of your life avoid challenges you always
01:46:21
take the easy Road you think that marrying you was the easy Road are you
01:46:27
kidding okay so that's kind of what it looks like I've seen that before have
01:46:35
you so have we what's the opposite then using the cross word example again if you role playay the opposite scenario
01:46:42
okay boy some of these Challenger cross puzzles are really
01:46:48
hard really yeah oh did you find something really hard in one you're
01:46:53
doing now yeah it's like you have to know the names of these dinosaurs I've never heard of in order to complete the
01:47:00
puzzle oh my God that sounds impossible I know yeah it really does yikes yeah
01:47:05
what are you working on right now that's so hard well I you know I'm trying to do these seduko things oh no I'm having a
01:47:12
lot of trouble with those oh those are impossible for me oh my God yeah I like
01:47:17
that you really love challenges good luck with that I don't think I'll be able to help you okay all right okay so
01:47:25
it kind of looks like that and what what are the like fundamental differences like CU is something being deposited in
01:47:31
that first example that's going to be Insidious and and to result in the relationship falling down think of the
01:47:36
word stupid I used it three times put down criticism
01:47:43
contemptuous how does he respond counterattacks you're not smart enough
01:47:48
to do these defensiveness these are like personality attacks straight from the J
01:47:54
exactly exactly and how does that lead to divorce how does it feel when
01:48:01
somebody looks down on us is disgusted by us does think we're stupid do we want
01:48:09
to be close to that person M do we want to have sex with that person mm do we
01:48:14
trust that person no we do not we pull away from them it can be much more
01:48:20
subtle as well than you demonstrated there what like the subtlest ways that that contentment can show up in a in a
01:48:26
conversation so you wouldn't you know I I've asked you to do the dishes you
01:48:31
wouldn't really think of getting your hands wet to do the dishes would you so that's I really hate getting my hands
01:48:38
wet okay so that was a little bit of sarcastic it was sarcastic but getting your hands wet I mean it's it's
01:48:46
like it's contempt again what would what advice would you give to me then I'm 31
01:48:52
years old I'm four years into my relationship you're what 36 years into your marriage 37 37 years into your
01:48:58
marriage what advice would you give to me to make sure that I get 37 years deep
01:49:03
you know you've given me lots of advice today about how to argue and how to resolve conflict get this get this notebook I'm going to get a notebook I'm
01:49:10
to get I'm going to carry around a notebook and the minute we have an argument I'm going to start taking notes yeah that's my solution you know and do
01:49:18
you do you know her dreams this is a really good question CU I think I know her dreams but I've never really asked
01:49:25
directly oh which I probably should have according to Julie's eyes yeah you might be surprised by the answer yes sir and
01:49:33
does she know yours and why they're so important to you beyond just yeah it's
01:49:40
fascinating I'm not even sure I know mine which is a bit of an issue wonder
01:49:45
how does it relate to you being from bwana yeah it's it's an interesting
01:49:51
thing because I think some sometimes we're scared of voicing our dreams because we think it might result in
01:49:57
figuring out that they're unaligned like I think if I asked her what her dreams were she's she's very ambitious she
01:50:03
wants to start a family think she wants to live in the the sun somewhere my dreams are probably more focused on I
01:50:10
want to start a family 2 but I want to I love doing this podcast there's only a couple of cities in the world where I
01:50:15
can do it um and there's only one city in the world where I think I can do this podcast and it's sunny and that's here
01:50:23
oh and she might not like being here but for a variety of reasons so it's like
01:50:28
and then you when you have kids you realize that you can't just fly around like I do now I have we have to be together and present and raise the kids
01:50:34
so I don't know in my head I've just thought cross that bridge when we come to it is that a good way to deal with
01:50:39
life no well it's not a bad way it's not a bad way you know it it depends on uh
01:50:48
your timing uh but the book we wrote eight dates uh which gives you
01:50:54
conversations to have that are really really important as you are establishing
01:51:00
a long-term relationship or if you're already in one but you haven't had
01:51:06
conversations like these in a while then those are great to have and you don't
01:51:12
have to be afraid you know that your dreams are very different from one another
01:51:20
because if there's a lot of love of you know with maybe a couple of exceptions out there you can figure out a way to
01:51:27
make it work what advice would you give to me then I want all of the advice that you haven't yet given me today okay so
01:51:34
one of them would be just remember that 85% turning towards figure okay turn
01:51:42
towards her as much as you can you don't mean physically you mean no yeah I mean
01:51:47
if she makes a little bit for connection like Hey Stephen um come into
01:51:55
the kitchen I want to show you something get up and go to the kitchen 85% of the time at least try do your best it's not
01:52:03
going to be perfect it's 86% by the way oh honey see here's my numbers man I can
01:52:10
always count on him to come up with the okay so you got to work even harder
01:52:15
Stephen okay 86% of the time yeah so that's a good one another one is when
01:52:22
and you are talking about an issue work really hard to not blame and
01:52:29
not criticize yep describe yourself your own feelings what situation you're upset
01:52:37
about and what your positive need is not the negative one anything else John we
01:52:43
have this great card deck called expressing your needs I don't know if if you got a copy of that one no no you can
01:52:51
download it on the on the App Store gotman cardex have it on your phone and
01:52:56
once a week just sit down with her and go through and say okay here's here's
01:53:02
two things I need this week why why should I do that because then it's real clear you know and she can tell you what
01:53:09
two things you you can do to make her happy this week and you know rather than
01:53:15
leaving it a chance you know you're a man that loves maths right yes give me
01:53:21
some of the most interesting mathematical conclusions you've been able to arrive at through your work
01:53:26
through the love lab I think the most amazing one is that the only way to be powerful in a
01:53:34
relationship is to accept influence and it's so
01:53:41
counterintuitive but that turns out to be really powerful that I I found that very surprising the only way to be
01:53:48
powerful is basically to be influenceable be flexible be movable
01:53:54
listen to your partner and try to accept some influence from what they're
01:54:00
saying not perfectly of course anything else say what you need don't expect your
01:54:08
partner to read your mind because they never can anything else yep one more this is
01:54:15
one of our favorite questions ask your partner once a
01:54:20
week what is something can do next week to make you feel more loved we have this
01:54:28
annual honeymoon that we do uh that we've done for 23 years and we go away
01:54:34
and bring our kayak and we ask each other three questions over two weeks
01:54:41
what sucked about this year what did you like about this year and what do you want next year to be like so we have
01:54:48
that once a year time when we can really take a hard look at our lives and see
01:54:54
what needs to change here's the deal we're talking to each other all the time
01:55:00
yeah because we work together and we're expressing love and affection and
01:55:06
gratitude to one another all the time and a lot of our work is
01:55:13
fun it would be great if we went out on more dates the pandemic kind of interfered
01:55:21
with that quite a bit um but we loved it but we loved it
01:55:27
and we love going on dates it's just we're so darn busy like everybody else right and we're really old Stephen so
01:55:35
we're getting tired John what does Julie mean to you
01:55:41
what does she mean to me what a question W she's
01:55:47
really the most important thing in my life absolutely the most important thing
01:55:53
waking up in the morning and having her be next to me is such a joy and cuddling
01:56:00
with her and our dog is just wonderful thing every morning and and now we get
01:56:07
to be grandparents together we have this two-year-old little boy that we're both
01:56:12
in love with and we get to see our daughter be a mom you know
01:56:20
it's it's the greatest gift that anybody's ever given me is to become a
01:56:26
father she means everything to me she wasn't in your life what would you be missing
01:56:33
Everything Everything Julie what does John mean to
01:56:39
you he's the most adorable wonderful lovable
01:56:46
person I've ever had in my life what he means to me is that he has healed me
01:56:54
from a lot of my own past [Music] trauma he makes me laugh all the time
01:57:02
and I didn't know how to laugh at all I never laughed before I met
01:57:09
him he supports my dreams nobody ever cared about my dreams
01:57:16
knew about my dreams before I met him including crazy dreams like going to
01:57:24
Antarctica by myself he supported that isn't that amazing he is the most supportive
01:57:31
wonderful man and the other thing is that he's so damn smart I knew I would
01:57:38
never be bored and he reads a million
01:57:43
times as much as I do I mean I read a lot but he reads so much that I'm
01:57:49
constantly learning from him so he's a source of knowledge source of
01:57:55
laughter source of sunshine source of a fabulous fabulous fabulous daughter and
01:58:03
son-in-law and grandson and he's got the most beautiful eyes in the whole wide
01:58:08
world that's what he means to me besides that I love his hat he always wears the
01:58:15
same hat and he has for like 40 years because it makes him look like a Jewish
01:58:21
intellectual B bik what could be better she's talking about my leather hat oh
01:58:26
okay going to say Fishman at fight right the book is
01:58:33
come out I think February 1st M January 30th yeah ah okay why did you write this
01:58:39
book why was it so important there's so many things that you could have written about from one of your research but for some reason you wrote a book called
01:58:45
fight right why did why take a look at the world fighting
01:58:52
especially in the United States has become more polarized than
01:58:58
ever secondly hatred has become
01:59:04
sanctioned as uh a fine way to express your own political points of view has
01:59:11
there been any listening to each other zip none and so you know we can't we're
01:59:20
not politicians we're not going to w the whole social system but if we can change
01:59:26
how people listen to one another and love one another at home which is what
01:59:32
we know the most about then we can hope and pray for a ripple effect to move out
01:59:39
into society and create more love out in the world too where we need it so much
01:59:47
Making Peace one family at a time oh I love it nice
01:59:53
one we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're leaving it for I'm going to
01:59:59
ask you both to answer the question I don't get to see it until I open the book here we
02:00:06
go oh interesting so I'm going to start this with Julie um if you could go back
02:00:14
and tell your parents any one thing at the time you were born what would it be
02:00:29
I would tell my father would you please stay
02:00:35
home at least one day a week instead of
02:00:42
abandoning my mother every single day seven days a week I would tell my
02:00:48
mother stop being critical stop being
02:00:53
contemp contemptuous try to look for what all of
02:00:59
us are doing right and say that rather than only
02:01:04
pointing out what we're doing wrong why wasn't he he was a
02:01:10
cardiologist so he was constantly gone saving lives
02:01:15
basically uh as a cardiologist and when he wasn't he was playing golf classic
02:01:22
cardiologist and I think my mother may have drove him a little
02:01:27
crazy cuz she was a very very disturbed individual so he
02:01:34
escaped and he was a 50s 1950s father right which meant all he had to do was
02:01:42
provide that was it no role with the children and your mother I'm guessing
02:01:48
didn't know how to fight in the way that you describe it in this book oh my God no no no no no no no my my mother had
02:02:01
witnessed horrible violence and rape within her home she was incested herself
02:02:09
in her own home growing up as a child she didn't feel like she had any
02:02:16
value other than her beauty and she was very very beautiful
02:02:22
so she didn't feel entitled to ask for what she needed and you need to feel at
02:02:29
least some of that in order to fight for what you want and what you need and J
02:02:37
same question yeah what would I tell my parents yeah I I think
02:02:46
that I would tell my parents first of all how much I love and
02:02:53
appreciate them for who they were and I
02:02:59
don't think I did that enough um especially with my dad and I
02:03:07
would also tell my parents to be better parents toward my
02:03:12
sister cuz we really lived in two different families and my sister didn't have an
02:03:21
easy going temperament and um and she was extremely
02:03:27
talented musically and I wish they had supported her music and loved her better
02:03:34
because she really needed it and I think they could have done a much
02:03:40
better job being parents of her they did a great job with me what was the cost to
02:03:46
your sister I think she felt really unloved still
02:03:53
especially by my mom and I felt very loved by my
02:03:58
mom I think that's kind of served to make sense of why you both do what you you do in many respects you both have an
02:04:06
origin story which is sort of pertinent and present in the work that you do and the perspectives you both take on the
02:04:13
subject matter of love and relationships comes from two very different places and um we all have an origin story of love
02:04:19
and relationships and I think think we often discount how important and formative that is for us I mean I know
02:04:25
from myself personally my my life is dominated by by love and relationships and My Success my business everything
02:04:31
that I've done in my life is comes back to the early relationships I had my perspective on love and the lack of Love
02:04:38
or you know the love that I once needed so thank you so much to both of you for really being seen as the you know you
02:04:43
are seen as the Pioneers on this subject and I said to you before we started recording that so many of my guests have come on this show and mentioned your
02:04:50
work they've quoted your work and these are some of the most successful people in the world they're scientists they're neuroscientists Etc but even long before
02:04:57
I got to meet you many years ago I did a live show across the UK and I was quoting stuff that came out of your love
02:05:02
love lab and on stage in front of thousands and thousands and thousands of people so thank you for turning the
02:05:08
lights on to a subject that matters so much to human happiness and health as we've discovered because it's some of
02:05:14
the most important work that I think anyone could do in for Humanity and you guys have been leading the way in doing it so thank you both so much thank you
02:05:20
stepen for having us on your podcast thank you so much given that you have
02:05:26
interviewed some of the most successful brilliant people on the
02:05:31
planet uh to be honoring love in the way that you're doing because by doing that
02:05:39
you are really endorsing how important love is and everybody needs to hear that
02:05:45
so thank you well said honey indeedy everyone needs to go get your
02:05:51
books I mean there's quite a lot of them but this particular one here I think everyone should start with because conflict resolution knowing how to um
02:05:58
take on conflict knowing how to address it knowing how to be a better sparring partner in relationships so that it can
02:06:04
be you and your partner versus the problem versus instead of you versus your partner I think is foundational to
02:06:10
us finding the love that most of us are searching for but that feels so elusive so I'd recommend everybody to go get the book I'm going to link in the
02:06:16
description below thank you so much we're done
02:06:21
[Music]
02:06:41
oh
