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I learned from your swipes on Instagram. Your brain does what you tell it to do. You're the boss. Tell it. AI is going to
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be a billion times smarter than humans. I would take data points and measurements and on topics like
00:00:12
happiness. Gratitude is the ultimate solution to the happiness equation. Mo Gaad, he is an expert on the topic of
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happiness. If everyone in the world listened to this podcast episode, the world would be a drastically better
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place. And I was chief business officer of Google X. Through that network, I've connected with the wisest people on the
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planet. We have an app coming out in Christmas that is aiming to get to the point where we know exactly why you're
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unhappy. Literally the simplest surgical operation not known to humankind. But
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five mistakes happened and 4 hours later Ali was gone. There's nothing I can do to bring him back. But I can make his
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essence alive. My intention shifted from spending the rest of my life in grief to
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actually writing what he taught me so that I can share it with the world
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[Music] mogat.
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You know, I've done this podcast for the last 12 months every week, and there's
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one name which my guests, the people that sit in front of me, the successful athletes, entrepreneurs, business people
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from all walks of life, and just generally ambitious successful people kept saying, and it was Mo's name. You
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know, I hype up these episodes a lot, but I've never said this. This was my favorite podcast of all time because of
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the lasting value that I know it will have on my life. I think I cried twice
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in this podcast episode. Who is Moan? He's a genius business person. So smart,
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in fact, that Google made him the head of Google X, which was their special projects division where they do the most
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crazy, insane things from flying cars to machine learning. anything a genius
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would be capable of doing. He's also a remarkable entrepreneur. But the thing
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that will bring the most value to you in this episode if you listen to it will be what he says about happiness. And some
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of the things he says today have just created these like personal revelations in my head where I genuinely feel that I
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have to go go and sit down in a room alone and think about them for the next couple of weeks. Genuinely
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life-changing. And you've never heard me this enthusiastic on the podcast. So, if you're ever going to trust me with an episode, trust me on this one. Are you
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ready? I hope you are. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the Diver CEO. I hope nobody's listening,
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but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.
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[Music] No, I guess my first question for you is
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um because you know when I look at the the things that you write about, the topics um you speak about so often, the
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businesses you've built, the areas of interests you have, and I see that they're so diverse and also they're very
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smart, shall I say? Oh, thank you. My my question is what what were those um early personal but
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also early professional experiences that have shaped the way you see and analyze
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the world? What is that context that we need to know about you? Uh
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I I I think the thing that maybe shapes me most is that I was born in the east,
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raised in the east with the culture of the east and educated in the west and worked in the west with the culture of
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the west. And um in a very unusual way, I didn't judge either. I think there is
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so much uh value to learn in each of them, but they're almost exact opposites
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and and to be able to embrace both of them maybe has allowed me to translate
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concepts that are normally spoken about on one more than the other uh to the
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other. So, so most of my work really is uh uh highly dependent on my early uh
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math, you know, love of mathematics, love of physics. I'm I'm a very serious
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geek. I don't say that in public because it affects my uh I just said it. It affects my CEO job, but I'm really geeky
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like to to the point that I was writing code until a few years ago. But I take all of that language of very being very
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organized, very systemic almost, you know, engineered in everything. And I try to explain concepts like
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spirituality, like love, like humanity, humanity's position in the modern age, and so on and so forth. and I and I
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explain them in slightly unusual ways. You know, I use for example quantum physics and theory of relativity to try
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and explain death. Um I use mathematics and theory of probability to to to discuss the question of the presence of
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a a divine being and so on and so forth. And I think the thing is I have a brain
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defect somewhere that basically does not stop me from addressing crazy ideas. So
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I I I normally am writing six books at the same time and and and I love it. I
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love it. I don't write for for you sadly. I I I hate to say this. I write for me. So I get inspired by a topic and
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then I build a structure literally like we write sub routines in software. I write the entire you know um um
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flowchart if you want of the book and then leave it on my desktop and then start to work on it. sometimes for a
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year, sometimes for two years and and eventually something comes out that informs me and enriches me and at the
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same time, you know, interests people. You write for you. Oh, absolutely.
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So, why did you write a book about happiness? That's the most selfish thing I've ever done in my life. I mean, if if you know
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uh my story was um so I I I was very successful at a very young age. So
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unusual. I mean I'm born and raised in Egypt, educated in public school, public university in Egypt. So my biggest dream
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was I was going to become sales manager in IBM Egypt. That was my biggest dream. And look at what happened. I mean I I
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went through beyond my wildest expectations. Chief business officer of
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Google X is literally the second best job on the planet. Okay. and and and you
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know I I uh I had all of this you know that people dream of at a very young age
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at 29. I had uh you know the big villa with the swimming pool uh with with you
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know all of the money, all of the suits, all of the luxury cars. uh from 25 when
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I had nothing to 29 when I had everything. I had the most wonderful woman in my life, beautiful, wise,
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sensitive, loving, who gave me two wonderful kids and I was clinically depressed and and and it's not an
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unusual story where where we keep chasing all of those things. I mean, my my luck was that I hit my middle age
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crisis at 29 when I achieved everything they told me I was supposed to achieve
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and couldn't find happiness. And so I ended up in a place where I started to
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research the topic uh just like I would anything else. And I couldn't get a
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word. I I just couldn't get it. You know, they told me to meditate. My engineering mind was like, "Tell me why.
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Explain something to me. tell me why it works, right? Uh, you know, if if they told me to say, I would get really
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angry. I still don't say, right? But but the idea is uh is my brain wouldn't get
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it. And instead of me rejecting that, I started to look at those topics as an
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engineer. So I would start to do literally you know like the scientific method. I would I would take data points
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and and measurements and try to do fitting lines and curves and charts on topics like happiness and you know it
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started to work for me. So four years in I started to really become a little better and I would go back to my
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wonderful son Ali uh who was born a tiny little Zen monk. He he knew those things
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instinctively and even as a young child you know age 8 I think was when I started to discuss those things with
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him. He would listen there and ask me a couple of questions clearly to entertain me and then basically say well done papa
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this is amazing you could have just asked me okay and then he would literally explain it to me from the
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heart. So how the heart feels it I I would get how the left brain sees it and he would get how the heart feels it.
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your son at eight. He was so wise, Stephen. He was so wise. Ali, when he was 16, uh I promise you,
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my friends will tell you, I would actually I I publicly announced when I grow older, I want to be like Ali. He
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was a very unusual being. And and he uh he he spoke very little, very very very
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little. He was either laughing all the time and being silly and goofy or when
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you asked him a a serious question, he would stay silent and then speak eight words. Okay. And those eight words would
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literally reshape your world. Okay. And I noticed that at a very young age uh
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for him. And so I started to consult with him on a lot of topics. Uh on a lot of topics and on happiness specifically
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together we ended up with a model that worked uh you know we had the happiness equation. me at the happiness model. And
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it worked. And it worked so well that when we lost him, sadly uh when he was 21, my intention shifted from spending
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the rest of my life in grief to actually writing what he taught me so that I can share it with the world. And that
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basically determined the next life for me after the life of the executive and
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the chief business officer and the you know stock options and the luxury and the cars. that second life really was
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the result of his departure. And during during that period, the the inspiration that inspired you to write
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the book at the very beginning and go on that journey to really find the answer to happiness, you said you were clinically depressed.
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Yes. Now, for people that don't know what that means practically, can you give a description?
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Nothing would make me happy. And you can you can literally uh you know as so I I
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interviewed Ruby Wax on my uh on my podcast on slow-mo and Ruby was known for her sometimes you know depression
00:10:14
and sometimes teaching and she would describe it as they cut your head off
00:10:19
and fill you with concrete when you're depressed. You're unable to do anything. You're unable to enjoy anything. You're
00:10:25
unable to engage. Right? And it comes in in different layers. But but for me the
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the challenge was I was so successful. I was so successful. I literally could
00:10:38
print money on demand. I mean there were times when my my my wife would say, "Can
00:10:44
we change the car?" And I would say, "So what would you like?" And she would say this. And I would say, "Okay, wait until
00:10:49
Wednesday." And I would be on the stock market uh you know, trading for a few days and making money, right? It was it
00:10:56
was so crazy because of my math skills before the age of machine trading was
00:11:01
really as as entrenched as as it is today. I could make money on demand and
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yet I poured that money on my life and I couldn't find happiness. Okay. I you
00:11:12
know and and that really shakes you because now you can get the vacations they're talking about. You can wear what
00:11:18
they're they told you is going to make you happy. you can buy the things that they told you are is going to make you happy but nothing's making you happy and
00:11:25
then it started to reflect on my family and I remember vividly the turning point
00:11:31
was a Saturday morning when you know my my daughter Ali my son was that little
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then monk uh my daughter is life her life itself she truly is pure joy okay
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and she was uh you know it was a Saturday morning she's jumping up and down in joy saying ah mommy said we're
00:11:48
going to go there can we stop and get you know ice cream on the way. Can we do that? And she's so happy. And I was
00:11:53
doing whatever busy people do, reading an email or whatever crap. And and basically I looked at her slowly raising
00:12:00
my head in grumpiness and said, "Can we please be serious for a minute?" Okay. What's serious? She was five. And I
00:12:07
could see with my own eyes as my daughter's beautiful daughter's heart broke. Okay. And I think to me that was
00:12:15
basically the moment where I said, "I can't live with this person anymore. I can't live with me." And when when you
00:12:20
see that, you make that choice. And sadly, most people who are successful like your audiences, actually wait until
00:12:28
that moment happens. When when they're old, when they've gone to the point where the good days have passed, the
00:12:35
days where you could have actually built that connection with your family or or with, you know, enjoyed your life a
00:12:41
little more are behind you. And then they wake up. I was so lucky that I woke up when I was 29.
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And so you have this idea as you say there to to write this book and to answer this question that is becomes so
00:12:55
relevant and important to answer in your life and as you're on that journey and and consulting with with Alli Ali
00:13:01
passes. Yes. No. So Ali Ali left after he trained me well enough. So uh
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uh it's really interesting. I mean he he um so I I started my research maybe when
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he was six or yeah he was 67 uh and finished when he was 18 19 and you
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couldn't dent my happiness then I was I was the example of happiness I mean I'm
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a Middle Eastern and at the time I used to work at Microsoft at least through that journey I used to work at Microsoft
00:13:33
and Microsoft's office was in Seattle so I would fly every month for a week to
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Seattle uh from Dubai to JFK and then from JFK to to Washington. And every
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time I landed in JFK, I got that random security check where they give me a red
00:13:50
envelope and take me to Homeland Security was really not the kindest of treatment if you want with a stupid
00:13:58
smile on my face. Like I flew 12 hours, then I sto stood in line for an hour and a bit and then they gave me that
00:14:05
envelope and there is a guard walking next to me now assuming I'm a criminal until proven otherwise and they sit me
00:14:11
in that room and I have that stupid smile on my face. Nothing could dent my happiness. Okay, I have beautiful
00:14:17
thoughts inside me. have compassion for every one of those officers, you know, that they're just doing their job and of
00:14:23
course they're worried about their country and it's really weird. And to the point that I did this 37 times in a
00:14:29
row, okay? And to the point that I would walk into the Homeland Security office and the officers behind the counter
00:14:36
would go like, "Mr. Gates is back." Okay? They know I'm the guy from Microsoft. I've been there last month. I
00:14:41
would walk to the counter and they say, "Answer the same 10 questions you we asked you last time." So I would say, "This is my name. this is my mother's
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name this right and go through them one by one without a dent in my happiness
00:14:53
but then life tests you so so uh and and by the way I mean we can talk about this
00:15:00
but of course I you can feel unhappy but I found a way to always come back to happiness if you want um and then life
00:15:08
tests you and I think a life nudges you it it seems that soul for happy needed to be written okay and I had the notes
00:15:15
for it in 2011 but Hey, chief business officer of Google X. Busy, busy, busy, busy. And I kept delaying it and
00:15:21
delaying it and delaying it until Ali basically came to visit us in uh in Dubai
00:15:28
2014 and he was um diagnosed with a very simple um appendix inflammation.
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And yeah, you know, it's literally the simplest surgical operation not known to
00:15:41
humankind. It's literally a four, five minute thing. But five mistakes happened. Five in a row. Everyone is pre
00:15:49
every one of them was preventable. Every one of them was fixable. But five in a row fixed wrong. And 4 hours later, Ali
00:15:56
was gone. Yeah. I mean, it's easy to understand how it feels even today, 7 years later,
00:16:04
losing a child is is just the hardest thing ever. Uh at least for me, it's the
00:16:09
hardest thing ever. If life had taken all my money and all what I've achieved and you know made me homeless, it would
00:16:15
have probably felt less painful than losing him. But but uh but our reaction
00:16:21
was very very unusual. Instead of trying to you know fight with life uh I simply
00:16:30
said okay you know he's gone there's nothing I can do to bring him back but I
00:16:35
can make his essence alive. I can keep his essence in this world and his essence to me was what he taught me. He
00:16:41
saved my life with what he taught me about happiness. And so I sat down to write first time that I really write in
00:16:47
English as English is not my first language. I wrote for 4 and a half months straight. And you know if if
00:16:54
you've read the alchemist by po you know when you when you know your life's purpose the universe conspires to make
00:17:00
it happen. I just can't tell you what happened since then. I mean every part of the universe is just pushing for this
00:17:07
mission to to work you know from finding my agent at a time where he was actually
00:17:12
not feeling great about his life. So he kept saying, "Can you send me another chapter? Can you send me another chapter?" Until I sent the whole book
00:17:18
saying, "What's he going to do with this?" And then literally we meet and he basically says, "Can I please represent
00:17:24
you?" We go out meet 17 publishers within a week in the in in New York in
00:17:30
the in the capital of publishing and then things roll and roll and roll to the point that I came here in the UK uh
00:17:38
literally a week after the the publication of Salt for Happy and I had that interview very famous with Channel
00:17:44
4 News which within 3 days was the highest watched news clip on the history
00:17:50
of channel channel 4 to the point that the CEO is starting to wonder like I've been pro broadcasting violence and war
00:17:57
for the you know last I don't know how many years and my highest watched clip at the time it was 37 million views is
00:18:05
about happiness okay which obviously is understandable it is the pandemic of our time within 3 days after that we were
00:18:12
watched 87 million times okay more than double the highest uh and and the mo the
00:18:18
movement was starting the 1 billion happy movement was starting basically I think it was a very strong uh uh
00:18:25
confirmation to the world that this is something the world needs and you can
00:18:30
actually feel today that there is a shift not because of me only but there are so many people coming into this uh
00:18:36
there is a big shift now between employee satisfaction and employee happiness between you know let's just
00:18:41
work on mental health and actually let's work on happiness and so on and so forth. There seem it seems that the
00:18:46
world is getting it that that you know we're not supposed to be grinding ourself uh and giving away our lives uh
00:18:55
for things that we think are going to make us happy. We might as well be happy and get everything as a result because
00:19:02
we can then be successful, we can be engaged, we can be lovable, we can be, you know, supported and so on and so
00:19:08
forth. It's just remarkable in my mind that you can lose the most important thing to you
00:19:15
as you've described it in your life, your son, to human error and still not
00:19:20
fall into resentment or bitterness or what would it do?
00:19:26
Regret. What would it do? I mean, of course, I I mean, I took steps to make
00:19:32
sure that things are corrected so that no one else gets hurt, right? Uh but what would it I mean I was very
00:19:38
prominent at the time when Ali died. Uh I was chief business officer of Google X but I was still between Dubai and
00:19:45
California. So I spent half of my time in Dubai and I it was after seven years of being vice president of emerging
00:19:51
markets for Google. So I had opened half of Google's offices globally. I was very you know well connected to the business
00:19:57
leaders and government leaders in Dubai. And so when Ali died uh we got a call from the top of the ministry of health
00:20:05
saying we heard what happened. I'm so sorry, Mo. Uh, would you mind if we perform an autopsy on Ali's body to get
00:20:12
to the top to the bottom of this? So, I looked at his mother sitting next to me, most wonderful woman on the planet with
00:20:18
her eyes teary. And I said, Neibbel, would you mind if they do that? And she raised his head and said, "Would it
00:20:24
bring Ali back?" And that one sentence anchored us in the truth. Okay. You see,
00:20:30
the problem with grief is that the cycle of grief takes you five steps. Huh? The the very last step is acceptance. Okay?
00:20:38
And that step of acceptance could take you 70 years sometimes.
00:20:44
For us, the truth was glaringly obvious 4 hours
00:20:49
later. There's nothing you can do to bring him back. This is it. And and the finality of death is so corrective of
00:20:56
all of our human illusions. Huh? This is it. He's not coming back. So, what can you do now? And my brain started to
00:21:02
attack me. my brain started to say, "You should have, you know, the one thought for the first uh few days was, you
00:21:08
should have driven him to another hospital. You should have driven him." Until I said to my to my to my brain like, "Okay, I I wish I could go back
00:21:15
and drive him to another hospital. I can't. So, can you please bring me a thought I can act upon?" Okay. And so, I
00:21:23
had a couple of days of silence. And then then my wonderful daughter comes to me.
00:21:30
They were very very close. And she said, "Papa Ali uh had a dream a couple of weeks ago and
00:21:37
he called and told me about it." Uh and I think it's very relevant. You need to know. Okay. And I said, "What baby?" And
00:21:44
he said, and she said he dreamt he was everywhere and part of everyone. And that he it felt so amazing that he
00:21:51
didn't want to be back in his body. And when she told me, I still tear up
00:21:56
thinking about it today. When she told me this, my blurry brain
00:22:02
could only listen to this is my master giving me my target. That's the only
00:22:07
thing I heard. It's like make me everywhere and part of everyone. That's what I heard. And at the time I was head
00:22:14
of Google. I I understood billions. I knew how to get the message to billions of people. So what did I do? I literally
00:22:21
said out loud, "Consider it done. It's done." Okay? And I told you when I wrote Soul for Happy, it was the most selfish
00:22:28
thing you can ever do. I wanted the essence of my son to to to live on. And
00:22:33
so I basically wrote it with the intention of okay, I'm going to make him everywhere and part of everyone. I'm
00:22:38
just going to spread this beautiful essence to 10 million people. And then I
00:22:44
don't know 70 years later through six degrees of separation, a tiny bit of him will be everywhere and part of everyone.
00:22:50
That was my blurry brain. But maybe it was also life's way of saying share something do something useful enough
00:22:58
enough building phones and building you know faster engines and you know maybe
00:23:04
the world needs something different maybe maybe share something that actually is needed by humanity.
00:23:11
Is that where that 10 billion million number came from? 10 million was the original target. Yeah, 10 million happy was. And at the
00:23:17
time it felt crazy that we were shooting for 10 million. But again with things like channel 4 alone, I think by week 8
00:23:24
we had reached 137 million people. Crazy. Okay. But we don't measure those by the way. We don't measure just the views. We
00:23:30
we measure how many people took action
00:23:36
uh in terms of uh of receiving the message. So it's it's basically 1 billion happy today is three steps. Step
00:23:42
one is we're going to give you send you a message that wakes you up that tells you happiness is your birthright and
00:23:48
it's highly attainable. It follows an equation. Okay? So you can actually uh
00:23:53
do certain things and you will be happier. Right? The second once you you get that message that's not enough. We
00:24:00
we count you as one of billion happy if you take one of two actions afterwards. Either you invest in your own happy
00:24:06
happiness, right? So you invest in your own happiness by going to another piece of content, shifting to, you know, read
00:24:12
a book or watch another video. We can see that you're investing in your happiness, asking me a question, getting
00:24:18
in touch, whatever that is. Or you share happiness forward. Okay? And the entire
00:24:23
Ponzi scheme if you want of 1 billion happies built on the idea of we hope that as a small team uh within hopefully
00:24:32
the next 10 12 years uh we will have you know cultivated a million champions that
00:24:39
will make a billion people happy as their own mission and then we will get completely forgotten. Okay. because it's
00:24:46
the only way for it to succeed is that it's not counting on you know one person or one face or one team because the team
00:24:52
will get dismantled and I'm you know going to disappear and it has to be a movement right and so the whole movement
00:25:00
is on that pillar number three pillar number three is you got a message of happiness you you know it might have
00:25:07
touched you can you share it to two people and ask them to share it to two people and ask them to share it to two
00:25:12
people simple exponential curve simple Ponzi scheme really a positive Ponzi scheme. Okay. And it's been working. We
00:25:19
we think we're at 51 million, which is not the biggest number, but you know, you understand the the the law of
00:25:26
accelerating returns, right? So, if it's now, you know, if we can do this again in four years and then that becomes 100
00:25:32
million and then the 100 becomes 200 and so on, you know, who knows? Who knows? We may get there.
00:25:38
And the and the mission is I guess the banner of the mission is soul for happy, right? Is that No, no, no, no. So, no, actually not at
00:25:44
all. So books don't go to millions. That's the truth of books. Okay. The books allow me the opportunity to sit
00:25:51
with you and and spread this to your audience. Okay. Uh but but the mission is much bigger now. So the pillars of
00:25:58
the mission are there is a tremendous amount of content uh that I put out
00:26:03
there. I mean if you search for my name on Google, you'll have hundreds of hours of videos. I'm tireless.
00:26:10
I did. Yeah. I watched several hours. Yeah. and and and some of them are you know Stanford University classrooms and
00:26:16
some some of them are short conversations with you know insightful people like yourself and it's it's you
00:26:22
know it's there is hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of content of hours of content but that's one side the other
00:26:28
side of course is uh through that network I've of course connected with
00:26:33
the mo with the wisest people on the planet uh so you know when I was chief business officer of Google I would be
00:26:40
connected to prime ministers and business owner or owners. Now I'm connected to his holiness, the the Dalai
00:26:46
Lama, the top monks in the world, the top teachers in the world. And so I brought all of them together on my on my
00:26:52
podcast on slow-mo. And slow-mo is a very unusual because it comes from a chief business officer, right? Basically
00:26:59
a simple message to say take a little bit of time to slow down and reflect. Okay? And it's not me talking. It's the
00:27:05
wisest people on the planet. Like I get blown away every time. Okay? And and and so that's that's another element. The
00:27:11
other element of course is training material. So we're working on that. We have an app coming out in Christmas that
00:27:17
is actually really promising. So we we're building an artificial intelligence based happiness assistant
00:27:23
which covers a very interesting gap that we're all unhappy but we're not all unhappy for the same reasons. And so if
00:27:30
I dis dispatch content at you that is irrelevant, okay, I'm probably going to
00:27:36
piss you off rather than make you happy. So the app in version one it's not perfect yet but in version two we're
00:27:42
aiming to to get to the point where we know exactly why you're unhappy and so
00:27:47
we're able to actually show you the enough learning and enough practice that can allow you to find the path back to
00:27:54
happiness. So it's more intelligent if you want not in in understanding
00:28:00
happiness but in understanding unhappiness if you want. So to understand what happiness is you have to understand the cause of it. Yes.
00:28:06
And you write about that extensively in solve for happy. So what is the cause of unhappiness as you see it? Especially if
00:28:11
you're building sort of machine learning applications that are going to you know um solve you know make people arrive at
00:28:17
contentment or happiness in a personalized way. We must be able to know what's causing this lack of
00:28:23
allow me a bit of time to explain it because it it's simple when we get it but it's not simple to get to it. So so
00:28:30
happiness is very predictable. Okay. If you look back at any point in your life where you ever felt happy, there is one
00:28:36
commonality across all of those moments that can actually do be documented in a mathematical equation. Okay? You've
00:28:43
never felt happy because of a specific event in your life. Okay? Uh take for
00:28:50
example rain. Rain doesn't make you happy or unhappy. There is no inherent value of happiness in rain. Okay? Rain
00:28:56
makes you happy when you want to water your plants and it makes you unhappy when you want to sunbathe. Right? And so
00:29:02
it's not just the event rain, it's the comparison between the event and an
00:29:08
expectation in your mind of how life should be. Okay? If you're worried about your plants, then life should be
00:29:14
generous to me and get me rain so I can water the plants. And if life does that, then life meets your expectations and
00:29:21
you're happy. Okay? And so happiness in that sense becomes equal to or greater
00:29:26
than. So it's really mathematics that your perception of the events of your life minus your expectations of how life
00:29:33
should be. Okay? And apply that to anything. Apply that to anything. So you know my favorite example is nature.
00:29:40
We're all happy in nature. Why are we all happy in nature? I mean you go out there and there are ants and there are
00:29:47
flies and you know trees are crooked and there are you know shrubs everywhere and bushes and it's just really not that
00:29:54
hedged and organized. But that's what we expect. So, you know, nature's chaos is
00:30:01
what we expect nature to be. And so, we feel happy. You know, nobody ever sits in front of the ocean and says, "I like
00:30:08
the view, but please mute the sound." Okay? You just take it. You know, it's it's the monotonous sound and the view
00:30:14
and the wind and and the sun and the whole experience. Right? uh and because
00:30:19
of that uh happiness becomes very different than
00:30:25
what was defined to us. Okay. What was defined to us is that happiness is found
00:30:31
in a gathering at the pub or a party or a you know an activity or some kind of
00:30:37
pleasure or fun or elation or whatever that is. That's not at all true. These I I call these the state of escape. Okay.
00:30:44
Happiness as per the definition of the happiness equation is events equal to or beating expectations. Life going my way.
00:30:52
Okay? And so basically happiness is that calm and peacefulness you feel when
00:30:57
you're okay with life as it is. It doesn't really matter what life is. Okay? What matters is that you can be
00:31:03
okay with it. Right? So so you take you know the any example if your boss is
00:31:09
annoying and your expectation is yeah bosses are annoying. this is what life
00:31:14
is about. They become bosses because they're annoying, right? And and so if if that's your expectation, you're going
00:31:21
to look at it and go like, "Yeah, I need to learn the skill of managing annoying bosses." Okay? And if that's the case,
00:31:27
then you're not going to be upset about it. Uh similarly, anything else, if you
00:31:33
look at it, then it's not just the event, it's your perception of the event. So you have a something to
00:31:40
influence. It's not just the event. Huh? Your partner might say something hurtful on Friday at 4 p.m.
00:31:47
That's the event. My partner said something hurtful at Sunday morning. You tell yourself he or she doesn't love me
00:31:54
anymore. Okay, that's your perception of the event. That's not actually the event. The event is something hurtful
00:32:00
was said. But your perception of the event is your work is your is your brain adding color to it. And then you compare
00:32:06
that to your expectations, right? You compared my boss is annoying to my boss shouldn't be annoying. Where did you get
00:32:12
that from? Right? So, we blur the happiness equation. We break the happiness equation because of what I
00:32:19
call the six and seven. Okay? Six grand illusions and seven blind spots which
00:32:25
are the six grand illusions are basically uh call them pathways
00:32:31
uh that the modern world teaches us to navigate the modern world that are illusions are not true. Okay. Um take
00:32:38
for example control. Everyone knows that to succeed in the modern world you have
00:32:43
to learn to control certain events right. So you start to believe that the way to succeed in life is to control
00:32:50
everything. But the truth is even if you go down to the basics of physics that we
00:32:55
never are in control that the the absolute design of nature itself of the
00:33:00
universe itself is entropy and chaos. Right? That's the actual design. And so
00:33:05
if you try to control it, you're bound to be disappointed. A lot of events are going to miss your expectations. Okay?
00:33:12
And yes, I'm not saying don't control anything at all. But start to understand that you're you're going to be selective
00:33:18
because you have a finite amount of effort. And by the way, even if you're selective and you you try to control
00:33:25
everything, sometimes things will fall out of control. Okay? And that should be your expectation. Once you get that
00:33:31
right, that was one that was my biggest illusion. Okay? I am a mathematician. I am a software developer. I am a
00:33:39
physicist. I am an engineer. And I am a senior executive. It doesn't get worse than that. Okay. I'm like the worst.
00:33:45
Absolutely the worst. I used to give my wonderful wife, I swear to you, Stephen,
00:33:51
don't judge me. I used to give her a spreadsheet that would tell her when to wash the colors and when to wash the
00:33:57
whites based on our average consumption as a family to save the environment. And
00:34:02
poor Nebel would would actually smile at me and say, "Sure, baby. I will use this." Right? Of course, and ignores the
00:34:09
hell out of me because that's how crazy you can be when it comes to control. Now, these are the illusions. If you
00:34:15
live your life through the illusion of control, good luck finding happiness. So, six grand illusions. The illusion of
00:34:22
uh of thought, the illusion, the illusion of self, the illusion of uh knowledge, the illusion of time,
00:34:28
control, and fear. Okay. Now, that's one side. And that disrupts your your entire
00:34:34
view of what to expect from life because you're expecting life to behave through a lens of a lens of an illusion. The
00:34:41
other side of it is what I call seven blind spots. Okay? And the seven blind spots are not really defects in your
00:34:48
brain. As a matter of fact, they are the very design of your brain. Okay? Your
00:34:54
brain is designed to tell you what's wrong. Okay? It's not designed to, you know, if a tiger shows up right here
00:35:00
now, my brain has no use whatsoever in telling me, "Oh my god, look how
00:35:06
majestic that animal is." Right? Yeah, it's a beautiful animal, but my brain will say, "We're going to die." Okay?
00:35:12
And we're going to die is the idea that basically makes our uh our brain
00:35:17
constantly look for what's wrong. Blur the events of life. Huh? You ask a mother and and she will say, "Oh, my
00:35:25
daughter's been sick all winter." No, she just had two episodes of flu, three days each. But to the to the caring
00:35:33
heart of a mother, that needs to be exaggerated to the exaggeration is one of the blind spots. Your your brain is
00:35:40
trying to get you to take action. So, it pushes you. H it pushes you by exaggerating the event a little bit so
00:35:45
that you jump in and take action. And accordingly, the event you're comparing to, you're comparing the wrong event to
00:35:51
the wrong expectation and the happiness equation falls apart. Under all of this, you're inferring
00:35:57
something which I think will annoy a lot of people. And that is that happiness is a choice.
00:36:02
Oh, totally. And that you you you can choose to be happy. Totally. And that if you're unhappy and really
00:36:08
for many circumstances in our life dayto-day in work and love and relationships, personal responsibility
00:36:14
is the is the answer. and entirely on you and a lack thereof is the cause.
00:36:19
Absolutely. You know what you just did? You've just lost us 80 8% of the audience. I know. Do you know why I know because I
00:36:26
did a tweet one day about this and what my tweet was um there's like a I guess a
00:36:31
mental model but there's a reframing that can I think has brought me happiness which is when something happens to me I I used to like many
00:36:39
people say x thing that happened has pissed me off. Yeah. And just by changing that sentence
00:36:45
to I've pissed myself off because of X thing. Absolutely. And I tweeted that and I I was like try
00:36:50
it. Just like reframe it and take personal responsibility for how you're feeling. And in the comment section,
00:36:56
everyone was like nope. Yeah. People don't like the idea that they have control over their emotional
00:37:02
responses. So when I when I wrote sort of when I wrote when I write books in general, I write them I write them like software.
00:37:08
So I issue a beta version. Okay. And I get 270 people. I don't know why 27 is
00:37:13
fascinating. Yeah. I get 270 people to read it on Google Docs. So I give them editor uh
00:37:19
privileges. So they I can actually edit the text, right? And then something fascinating happens. They they edit the
00:37:25
text and then others edit what they edited. Okay? And there is a conversation happening and basically it
00:37:31
takes the book to its best possible version. if you want uh in s for happy I
00:37:37
had uh a sentence on page 11 that basically said exactly what you said happiness is a choice okay and at that
00:37:45
page I lost 8% of the readers okay and you know I looked into the information
00:37:50
that they gave me about themselves the early readers and the eight most of the 8% that left were already in depression
00:37:57
okay and to tell someone uh it's your responsibility to get yourself out of
00:38:03
this horrible place that you're in is quite disturbing because we like the idea of saying no no hold on no it's not
00:38:10
me life is treating me really badly that's why I'm not happy okay I can't do
00:38:16
anything about it life took my son you know life took my son I have the right to be unhappy yes life took your son
00:38:22
that's true and you have the right to be unhappy but you're never going to get out of unhappiness if you wait for life
00:38:28
to bring him back or you wait for life to correct its action okay the only way you can come out of unhappiness is if
00:38:34
you choose and say, "Okay, it's going to be a long journey. It's going to take a lot of time, okay, and I'm going to try
00:38:40
and try and try, but I'll get there." And and neuroplasticity proves that. Neuroplasticity basically tells you that
00:38:47
if you just run a happiness kind of activity once a day, every day, your
00:38:53
brain will be better at it. And and I mean, please don't get me wrong, but what do most of us do every day? We
00:39:00
watch negative news. We swipe on toxic positivity and we we're just drowning
00:39:05
ourselves in negativity. And then what happens? What happens is we become really good at being negative. We become
00:39:11
really good at finding what's wrong with life. Become very good at, you know, getting pissed off with the prime minister, right? Because it's an
00:39:17
activity we do on daily basis. So your brain goes like this must be important for her or him. Okay? I'm just going to
00:39:23
make sure I have the neurons aligned around that. And so you're basically we're basically configuring our brains
00:39:29
to be unhappy. I have not watched a horror movie for 15 years. Really? Yeah. You know what that means? I have
00:39:36
not had a nightmare for for 15 years. Not a single one. Okay. I have not
00:39:41
watched a violent movie unless really badly recommended to me because it has a a good message in it. And I watch
00:39:47
Michael McIntyre every every night before I sleep. I love Michael McIntyre. Who's going to get me to say hi to
00:39:53
Michael McIntyre? The but but it's but but think about that practice. Huh? My brain before I go
00:39:59
to sleep is laughing. Is laughing. That's a choice. That's a
00:40:05
choice. And and that is the kind of neuroplasticity that we need to shift.
00:40:13
You know, if you if you go to the gym and lift weights every day, you're going to look like a triangle. If you squat
00:40:19
every day, you're going to look like a pair. Okay? The same is happening inside your brain. You just don't see it. If
00:40:25
you're constantly watching, you know, news media, right, you're literally building your muscles
00:40:31
that are concerned and are, you know, uh, critical and are worried about the
00:40:37
world when in reality most of the time you can't do anything about it. Like, okay, so I'll give you a very strange
00:40:43
example. When I I was locked down, first lockdown, I was in London. Second lockdown I was in Canada. Okay. As the
00:40:51
lockdown was approaching, I I stopped watching news after April 2020. Zero
00:40:56
news. Okay. And by the time I was in Montreal, someone texted me and said,
00:41:01
"Hey, by the way, did you know we're going to code red tomorrow?" I said, "Yeah, what's code red?" She said, "All
00:41:07
restaurants are closed. You wear a mask everywhere." I said, "Good. That's it. That's all the news I needed to know."
00:41:14
Really? Okay. People would go like, "No, how come you need to know the numbers and the statistics and the death rate
00:41:19
and there?" No, I don't. Okay, someone else is doing this. And by the way, if I
00:41:24
know it and I don't like it and I don't believe in what they're doing, I'm going to be locked down anyway. So, can I
00:41:30
waste my time or actually utilize my time in building a podcast that becomes one of the top half% of the of all
00:41:37
podcasts globally? Isn't that a better use of my life than just watching the news and crit, you know, creating that
00:41:44
illusion for myself that I can actually influence anything when in reality? So,
00:41:49
you know, I I normally advise people and say, look, if you've been following a certain topic for the last two months
00:41:55
and have not been able to influence the decision on that topic for the last two months, you're useless. So, stop
00:42:01
watching that topic. Okay? And start choosing topics that you can champion.
00:42:07
Okay? one or two because you're human. You're not, you know, you're not Superman. Find one or two real, you
00:42:14
know, purposes that you actually care about and try to learn enough about them, enough depth about them to
00:42:20
influence them. That's the way to make the world better. That's the way to make your life better. And yeah, climate change is really something very
00:42:27
important, but it's not on my agenda. I I don't work on climate change. I work on happiness. That's my part of life.
00:42:34
Okay. someone else I trust will be working on climate change which I believe is as important if not more
00:42:39
important but it's not mine I don't need to watch everything about it okay and concern myself about it all the time I
00:42:46
need to be updated I need to do my part by by really changing my habits as a
00:42:52
human but that's it that's as far as I go there's something in there which is
00:42:57
clearly a theme in I think three topics we've touched on the passing of your son you know you talked there about co um
00:43:03
and other elements which is this theme of like radical acceptance. Oh, absolutely. Like instant radical acceptance.
00:43:10
Oh, absolutely. I mean, this is what I call the Jedi master level of happiness. So, there are three levels of happiness,
00:43:16
right? Uh the the the you know, if you um if you really think about it, I call
00:43:22
it the happiness flowchart. Events are going to piss you off. It's just the truth. H if you can manage to
00:43:28
acknowledge your emotion and say, "Oh my god, I feel am I angry? Is this anger? I mean is this is this what I'm feeling?
00:43:34
And then and then you take that feeling and you say to yourself, okay, interesting. I am angry. I need to do
00:43:41
something about it. I will give you three steps. Okay. The beginner's level is ask yourself if what you're thinking
00:43:48
is true. Your partner said something hurtful on Friday. Your thought is he or
00:43:54
she doesn't love me anymore. Okay? Ask yourself if that thought is true. If it isn't, drop it. There's no point to be
00:44:00
unhappy. If it is, then let's go to the black belt level of unhappiness, which is can I do thing something about it.
00:44:08
That's the second question. Is it true is question one. Can I do something about it is question two. Right? And
00:44:14
honestly, by the way, it doesn't take more than 2 seconds to feel the emotion. Ask yourself if it's true and then go to
00:44:20
to to uh to can I do something about it? And if yes, then do it. What are you waiting for? Text him or text her and
00:44:27
say, "Baby, can we please talk over dinner what you said on Friday hurt me?" Okay, instead of just banging your head
00:44:32
against the table hoping that they will find out and come and say, "Oh, I'm so sorry." You know, I I had I I was
00:44:38
teaching this this story really hurts me. I I was teaching, you know, when before lockdown, I I taught a lot of
00:44:44
people in workshops and seminars, more than two 20,000 people. One one day, one
00:44:50
of them comes to me in the first break and says, "What are you talking about? What do you mean happiness is a choice?
00:44:55
You have no idea what happened to me." Okay. And I said, "Okay." And she said,
00:45:01
"When I was 17." She was 74 at the time. Can you believe that? H 57 years of
00:45:08
holding on to one thought, hitting her head against the wall, right? And I hugged her. I hugged her. I cried. And I
00:45:15
said, "Did it work? Did all of that work? Or was the better thought, okay,
00:45:22
it was horrible, but can I do something about it?" Okay. And that's question number two. That's black belt.
00:45:29
Sometimes, however, there's nothing you can do about it. Whatever she experienced could be irreversible. What
00:45:35
I have experienced the loss of Ali is irreversible. There's nothing you can do about it. Okay? And I'm not asking
00:45:41
everyone to get there quickly. But the Jedai master level of happiness is to say, okay,
00:45:47
it happened and I have no choice to change it. There is nothing I can do to fix it. So can I accept it but not
00:45:55
surrender and lie down and you know and and die. Accept it and then start to do
00:46:00
something to make my my life better despite its presence or maybe because of
00:46:05
its presence. Okay. Can I accept that Ali died and start to spread his message
00:46:11
so that my life and the life of others become better? Can I accept that I'm locked down and start my podcast so that
00:46:18
I can use the time where I'm not traveling? Can I do that? I call that committed acceptance. Okay? And it's
00:46:24
very simple. If you commit and accept to if you accept things you you can't change and commit to make your life
00:46:30
better despite of or because of their presence, nothing can beat you. Nothing can beat
00:46:36
you. And yeah, does it is it horrible that I actually managed to move on and and you know, not hit my head against
00:46:44
the wall for 27 years? Uh does that say I don't love Ali? What are you talking
00:46:49
about? I I adore Ali. I cry about missing him still today. Right? It's not
00:46:55
that it's there is nothing to prove in that what what I can prove is I love him
00:47:01
so much that I actually dedicate my life to spreading his message. That's so much
00:47:07
better than sitting there and saying, "Ah, life hit me. I don't like life." Right? That's a six-year-old attitude,
00:47:14
honestly. Okay? adults will say, "Okay, and especially
00:47:19
business people, I mean your audiences, huh, the market changes all the time." Do you sit down and go like, "Ah, I lost
00:47:25
another deal." Or do you just get up and say, "Why why did we do lose this deal? What can we do about it?" Right? And if
00:47:31
if there is something wrong with the product, can we change the product? Right.
00:47:36
What you talked to there about business in particular rings very very true because in business
00:47:42
and you've been you know very successful entrepreneur yourself and worked with teams you'll get people who are high in
00:47:49
defaulting to logic in moments of chaos and also default to personal responsibility and those that don't.
00:47:56
Yeah. And the outcomes of both groups are quite pretty different. And actually this this approach of is it true uh can
00:48:04
I do something about it? Can I accept it and and and commit? I learned that in
00:48:09
business. Okay. So, I've spent mo most of my my career I was managing managers. And what do managers do? They open your
00:48:16
door and they sit down and complain. Okay. And after a while, it becomes too much. So, my attitude was very
00:48:21
straightforward. I would give them 10 minutes to vent. Then 10 minutes to ask
00:48:26
them, is this true? Okay. Is there anything you're missing? Is is the legal team also nice? Not just making your
00:48:33
life miserable, right? Have they have you seen evidence that they've helped you before? So, you know, is it true?
00:48:39
And then I go like, so now great, last 10 minutes of the meeting. What are we going to do about it? Are we going to be
00:48:44
able to to to improve it, fix it, or are we going to accept it and do something despite its presence? And it's a very
00:48:50
simple business approach. Now, most of us do that in business, but when it comes to our personal life, we don't do
00:48:56
that. And interestingly, most of us, by the way, who do that in business are very successful in
00:49:03
business. And most of us who do that in life are very successful in life. It's not just happy. It makes us h makes us
00:49:10
successful because it doesn't waste our cycles on things that are not necessary.
00:49:16
So if you can do it at work, do it at home, do it in your life, do it in your relationships. It's really a very straightforward flowchart.
00:49:23
You talked about when you were talking about the the chatter that arrived after Alli's passing
00:49:29
and it it was telling you maybe you should have driven him to another hospital. maybe you should have done this and you could have done this differently. That is, you know,
00:49:35
everybody has that that chatter show up in their minds at certain points which seems to be, you know, not necessarily
00:49:42
your best friend and is sometimes suggesting that you should do X, Y, and Zed, which would probably be destructive. What you said following
00:49:49
that is that you almost like disassociated from it and you and it was it wasn't it wasn't
00:49:55
you. You you're almost describing it as if it was someone else in your head. Absolutely. I call my brain Becky. Yeah.
00:50:01
You you call your brain Becky. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Talk to me. What? So So Becky is a third party. Yeah. Yeah.
00:50:06
Yeah. Becky is not me. Okay. So So think about it. Huh? It doesn't take a lot of logic. Again, it's one of
00:50:12
the illusions of the modern world. The illusions of the modern world basically we glorify thinking so much that we
00:50:18
think that the voice inside our heads telling us what to do is us telling us what to do. If it was you telling you
00:50:24
what to do, why would it need to talk? And and I think really you need to think about this. And there has been uh uh uh
00:50:31
you know research in this since the 1920s. And Liv Gdov uh Gdovski I think
00:50:37
his name is a Russian Nobel Prize winner in the 1920s basically won the the Nobel
00:50:42
Prize because he observed that the voice box uh when you're when you have that internal dialogue in your head is moving
00:50:50
ever so slightly like like it does when you speak out loud. Okay. And so MIT proved that actually 2007 there was a a
00:50:57
wonderful MRI study where they put participants in MRI machines, give them word puzzles and the participant problem
00:51:04
solving areas of the brain would light up for for as long as it takes to actually solve the problem and then that
00:51:10
would shut down. So no no no more problem solving but the participant still not aware of the of the answer and
00:51:16
the pro and the and the speech association area of the brain would actually light up for up to 8 seconds
00:51:22
and then you would know the answer then the participant would know the answer. Okay so literally your brain solves the
00:51:27
problem and they then takes up to 8 seconds to to turn it into words to tell
00:51:33
it to you. Your brain is literally talking to you. It's not I think therefore I am. It's I am therefore my
00:51:39
brain thinks. Now the the interesting challenge we have in the modern world is this. Nobody wakes up in the morning and
00:51:46
tells themsself uh I pump blood around my body therefore I am. Okay. The
00:51:52
biological function of your heart is to pump blood around your body. Okay. Yet we think I think therefore I am. I am
00:51:59
that voice in my head. Now you know simply if you realize that this is just
00:52:05
a biological organ. Okay. And the biological product of your brain is thoughts. And the and and the currency
00:52:12
of the brain is words because the only building blocks of knowledge you have since you started to speak is words.
00:52:18
Okay? And so accordingly what your brain is doing is it's analyzing its it's you know it's the world around it and
00:52:24
presenting ideas so that you can choose. Now if you think that those ideas are you telling you what to do then you're
00:52:31
going to obey. Okay? If it says oh life is miserable then it must be true. Life must be miserable. But that's not the
00:52:37
truth at all. If me and Becky are two different people, I can debate what Becky Becky's telling me. I can refuse
00:52:44
to obey what Becky is telling me to do and I can tell Becky to shut the f up.
00:52:49
Do you understand that? And I actually do it very often. I'm like, I'm working on something and Becky comes up with an
00:52:54
idea. Oh, my your daughter doesn't love you anymore. I'm like, Becky, we're going to talk about this at 6. It's as
00:53:00
simple as that, right? And your brain does what you tell it to do. I mean, anyone listening to us, if you tell your
00:53:06
brain, "Raise my right hand," your brain is not going to raise your left foot.
00:53:11
It's just going to obey. Just tell it. You're the boss. Okay? So, when your brain poisons you with all of those
00:53:17
thoughts, follow the flowchart. Okay, Becky, vent a little bit. Then tell me,
00:53:23
is this true? Is there something I can do about it? Can we accept it and do something despite its presence? How
00:53:29
difficult is that? And so most happiness practitioners I interviewed my dear dear friend Matthew Ricard on on slow-mo.
00:53:36
Matthew Ricard is known as the world's the world's happiest man. So 63 hours
00:53:41
63,000 hours of lifetime meditation. Okay. His brain circuitry is literally different than ours. Okay. And and I
00:53:48
asked him and I said, "Matthew, so do you sometimes get unhappy?" And he
00:53:54
laughed and in his funny French accent said, "What are you talking about me? I'm pissed off all the time." Okay. And
00:54:00
and basically all happiness experts will tell you unhappiness is a survival
00:54:05
mechanism. It's alerting you. Your brain is saying, "Hey, something is not perfect. Can you please look into this?"
00:54:12
Right? The game is not to avoid that. That's actually harmful for you. You want you want to be aware of the things
00:54:18
that might go wrong. Okay? The game is how quickly do you bounce back to happiness?
00:54:24
From that moment where your brain says something is not right, how quickly do I go back to happiness? And I don't brag
00:54:30
about this, but I say to encourage people. I'm, you know, if I'm allowed to teach people about happiness, I need to
00:54:36
be the Olympic champion of the sport. Okay? So, I promise you, and I'm not bragging, on average, it takes me 7
00:54:43
seconds from the time my brain suggests that something deserves my happiness to
00:54:48
the time I either dismiss it because it's not true or decide what I'm going to do about it or decide to accept it
00:54:53
and think what else I'm going to do is 7 seconds. 7 seconds. Okay. Yes. Sometimes I get stuck in, you know, maybe three,
00:55:00
four times a year I get stuck in something that takes me, you know, a day to overcome. But most of the time, it's
00:55:06
a very simple flowchart. It's a very logical process and you've had to train yourself to get to that point.
00:55:11
It's it's neuroplasticity. It is new. Go to the gym. Okay. Write
00:55:17
the flowchart on a piece of paper and every time your emotion changes, look at it. Is it true? Can I do something about
00:55:24
it? Can I accept it and do something despite its presence? It's really that simple. And you talk a lot about one of the
00:55:31
illusions you said there was time. Oh, I love time. And and the importance of um presence.
00:55:36
What role does does time in being present because you also you talked about that the world's happiest man as you described him being a great
00:55:42
meditator and I think from what I understand about meditation although I'm not an expert much of that is about bringing us to the present moment
00:55:48
totally I mean there are there are two sides to time that we need to understand one you can one you can easily understand from theory of relativity and
00:55:56
and Einstein's view of spaceime anything you know about time is not real as a matter of fact nobody has a clue what
00:56:02
time is okay uh and and we have to accept this that The illusion of time in
00:56:07
the modern world is because we've managed to uh uh to to control what
00:56:12
we've measured. Okay, we're we're measuring mechanical movements that sort of hint to time to the passage of time
00:56:19
and we're we now can show up on time and you know have an interview that we can measure is like an hour and a bit and so
00:56:25
on and so forth. But time itself we don't know. Okay. The the only understanding we have of time is that we
00:56:31
are being propelled forward through space time along the arrow of time. Okay. And that every t every slice of
00:56:38
spaceime we're we're standing there in that slice only living here and now.
00:56:44
Okay. You've never ever lived yesterday. Do you realize that? When you lived yesterday, it was called today. You're
00:56:50
never going to live tomorrow. When you when you live tomorrow, it's going to be called today. Okay? It's always right
00:56:55
here and right now. And I did a an interesting analysis in solve for happy where I listed down the majority of
00:57:00
human emo emotions and plotted them across where they are anchored in time
00:57:06
and across if they're positive or negative. Okay? So you take an emotion like regret regret is anchored in the
00:57:13
past. It's about something that happened in the past and it's negative. You take something like anxiety. Anxiety is
00:57:19
anchored in the future. It's about something that might happen in the future and it's negative. Okay. The
00:57:25
majority of negative emotions are anchored in the past and the future. The majority of positive emotions are
00:57:30
anchored in the present moment. Okay? If you're if you're here and now, there's absolutely nothing wrong. I mean, think
00:57:38
about it this way. If you're listening to us talk having this conversation as a as one of our listeners, by definition,
00:57:44
there is no tiger trying to eat you. You know the act the reality that you know
00:57:50
which is really shocking the the the reality that you can feel unhappy about
00:57:55
something in the past and the future is in itself evidence that now is okay
00:58:01
because if there was a tiger trying to eat you right now you wouldn't be thinking about losing your job in 3 weeks.
00:58:07
Okay. So the truth is every time remind yourself the the fact that I'm thinking about past and future is it
00:58:13
self-evidence that now is fine. There is a roof on top of my head. I'm obviously not starving. Okay. You have an
00:58:19
electronic device that allows you to listen to us. Uh, life is okay. That's so crazy. I've never actually
00:58:24
thought about that idea of practically of what you just said then of that the person listening to this now focusing on
00:58:31
the sound of my voice is not actually unhappy now. Absolutely not. They're not when they stop listening to
00:58:37
it, they might their thoughts might descend into unhappiness, past, future regret, whatever. But as they're listening to this, they're not actually
00:58:43
in the state of unhappiness. They have to stop listening and stop engaging to and think about something else to create
00:58:48
space for that. Remember Inception? Yeah. The beginning of Inception, the question was what is the most uh deadly
00:58:56
parasite or whatever? I don't remember. And he said it's an idea. an idea. You
00:59:01
have never, there is nothing in your life that has the power to make you unhappy until you turn it into a
00:59:08
thought, a negative thought, and turn it into your head and torture yourself with it. Simple as that. Okay? If you're
00:59:16
locked down and you're at home and you have food and you have shelter and you're not sick sick and hopefully none
00:59:22
of your family and loved ones is sick, okay, the only way you can get yourself
00:59:28
to be unhappy is to say, "I don't like this. I want life to be different."
00:59:34
Right? And that's not going to change life. Interestingly, that thought, right? But it's going to change you and
00:59:41
make you miserable. It's the only way you can make yourself unhappy. You just lost another 8% of our
00:59:47
listeners. Yeah.
00:59:53
Um, you have a Yeah. Hopefully we'll get 8% more somewhere else. You have a
00:59:58
tattoo on your back. I don't. Oh, you don't? Oh, Alli did. Was it Ali about um Oh, yeah. The gravity of the
01:00:04
battle. Gravity of the battle. Could you Could you Could you explain that to me? I found that really amazing. Amazing. It's the last thing he told me.
01:00:10
Can you believe that? So Ali um Ali uh
01:00:16
had a tattoo on his back that read the gravity of the battle means nothing to those at peace. Okay. And you would
01:00:22
wonder why why because he's he you know he he lived a life of ease and luxury in
01:00:28
general. I mean, even though he always forced himself to go to the I mean, he had those journeys where he would go and
01:00:35
literally uh walk across the villages of America with no money just to live the
01:00:40
life of the people, the real people if you want. He would go to, you know, it was very unusual. Anyway, uh yeah, his
01:00:47
his tattoo said the gravity of the battle means nothing to those at peace. And it was the very last thing he told
01:00:54
me because basically he had he was wearing those scrubs and you know how the scrubs are open at the back and he
01:01:00
was lying on on the operating table and then they were fixing something so he he
01:01:05
had to sit up and I could read the the the tattoo was the very last thing he
01:01:10
told me before he went into the operating room. And yeah, it's quite interesting when you really think about
01:01:16
it. Of course, life is full of battles. Life is not supposed to be easy. Just
01:01:22
understand that. Huh? Think of life as a video game. If it was easy, it would be boring like hell and you would learn
01:01:28
nothing at all. Okay? Life is supposed to have a few difficulties on the way. But that but but some battlesh
01:01:35
are are much harder for you than they are for me. And many battles don't even
01:01:41
shake those who are at peace. Right? And and and the question is how do you find that peace? How do you find that feeling
01:01:49
of it's okay, it's just another battle? It's just, you know, I've I've won every
01:01:55
other battle so far and the ones that I've lost were the best thing that ever happened to me. How can you get that
01:02:01
straight in your mind? Because then suddenly when the when the next battle
01:02:07
approaches and I promise you there will be a next battle approaching, okay, you take that battle with complete
01:02:14
peacefulness. You basically treat it as one more twist on the game controller
01:02:21
where you can actually affect your life and make it better and then wait for the next one and then another twist on the
01:02:28
game controller and you can do better. It's a very stoic approach to life. But it's so spot on when you think about it.
01:02:35
I was reading something you said which really did make me pause for a second and it said that, you know, correct me
01:02:41
if I'm wrong because I don't want to mischaracterize what you said, but you were saying how basically nobody regrets their battles.
01:02:47
Like basically nobody would reverse history and undo the hard thing they went through. And I I sat and reflected
01:02:53
and I thought I thought about all my guests that come here and sit in that chair and all the the things they've told me about and I thought I think
01:02:58
you're probably right.1%. So I I I ran an experiment. So, uh, in
01:03:04
in the in the chapter about control, uh, I, uh, I wrote, uh, something that I
01:03:09
call the eraser test. The eraser test is a thought experiment. At Google X, we've developed something that can pinpoint a
01:03:15
memory in your life and go back to that event and erase that event from your timeline. Okay? Not the memory of it,
01:03:23
the actual event. It will erase the whole thing. And I ran that experiment uh with uh maybe 12,000 people uh where
01:03:30
I basically tell them first write down an event that's traumatic in your life. Second, make a choice. Do you want me to
01:03:38
erase it or not? Third, be aware that if you erase it, you're going to erase everything that happened as a result.
01:03:45
Every friend that you met as a result, every learning that you had as a result, every resilience that you developed as a result, would you still erase it?
01:03:52
99.99% of people said, "No, I'd keep it." Okay? And these were very traumatic events.
01:03:59
It's not just some bully at school. Huh? So, you know, I will tell you openly myself. I I cried on stage in 2019
01:04:07
because someone asked me and said, "Now that you have the eraser test, would you erase the death of Ali?"
01:04:14
And I wouldn't. I wouldn't because I will tell you openly if you know my son
01:04:19
if I had told Ali before he died that his death would make 51 million people
01:04:24
happy you would have said kill me right now and
01:04:29
I don't know I mean is it radical acceptance or am I is my brain telling me this but most of the
01:04:37
time most of the time the person that you are is the result of those moments it's not the result of the easy parts
01:04:45
M and you would never erase it. 99.99% of the people would not erase it.
01:04:53
Easier said in hindsight, I guess. Of course. But then, but then but then let's let's
01:04:59
extrapolate. If I would not erase 99.99% of the harsh events in my past, why am I
01:05:06
thinking that this one is the one that's going to stick? Think about it. If all of your past
01:05:12
harsh experiences were painful then but enormously important now, then maybe
01:05:18
this one too will be enormously important. Maybe this is the one that's
01:05:23
going to make you who you are. reminds me actually of something you said about death as well because much of the reason
01:05:30
I think again correct me if I'm mischaracterizing but um you said that people fear death because of the
01:05:35
uncertainty it brings and not knowing what that you know the life after death
01:05:40
or that you know that will look and feel like and I I I reflect on what we're talking about with this eraser and so I
01:05:46
think a lot of the reason why I might not choose to erase traumatic events in my life or the worst things that happened to me is because then I don't
01:05:53
know which way that kind of my life would have gone then and it could have gone in a worse direction. So, in this
01:05:59
current moment, I feel somewhat content. Uh, you know, I'm just I'm being I'm
01:06:04
talking about the potential with those 99% of people that you described. And there's a chance it could be worse
01:06:09
if I use that eraser. So, I'm not going to use that eraser because Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Correct. And and and most of the
01:06:16
time, yes. When you look back in hindsight, you start to recognize all of
01:06:22
the benefits that came with the trauma. And most of the time, interestingly, the way the physics of life work is that the
01:06:28
benefits outweigh the trauma. Interesting. Quick one. I talk to you guys about Hule
01:06:34
a lot. So, I'm going to do a quick intermission to tell you about a bit of a change that's happened in the last 2 months in my life. As you guys know, my
01:06:41
favorite Hule product historically has been the Ready to Drink, which is these bottles here. They are nutritionally complete. However, recently since Hule
01:06:48
introduced the Hule protein, this now plays a huge role in my diet. The salted
01:06:53
caramel flavor protein from Pule, which is only 105 calories and has 26 vitamins
01:06:59
and minerals and 20 grams of protein, um, serves two roles in my life. Now, first thing I do when I wake up in the
01:07:05
morning is I have a glass. And then at night time after I've been to the gym, straight after the gym, I have a glass.
01:07:10
It tastes amazing. If you're going to try it, follow my instructions here. Get a couple of cubes of ice, put it in a
01:07:17
blender, put on the salted caramel protein, and it tastes like a delicious smoothie. I've already gone through one
01:07:24
tub of this. I'm actually on my second tub, and I've got two more tubs to go before I'm going to reorder more. But genuinely, the salted caramel flavor,
01:07:30
maybe because I have a liking for salted caramel for me, has been a game changer. I wrote a book called Happy Sexy
01:07:36
Millionaire. Nice. because it was because I was I was an 18-year-old kid that um wrong because
01:07:41
of all the insecurities from my childhood being the only black kid in an all white school. Parents were broke but everyone else around me was rich. So it
01:07:47
creates this cauldron of like insecurity where you want to be you want to fit in and then you it leads you to the the path of thinking that money and material
01:07:54
possessions will be the thing that makes me fit in. So I go off on the path to try and be this happy sexy millionaire.
01:07:59
Of course 25 years old Range Rover Sports sat outside. I'm a multi-millionaire big successful
01:08:05
business six-pack all these things. the day our company IPOs, it's worth 300 million and just this total anti-limax
01:08:12
which almost sent me into like and I'm like where is the marching band and the confetti like where is it? I 18-year-old
01:08:18
Steve promised me that and I and and so now I reflect I look forward and think well I need to be careful about some of
01:08:24
these ambitions I have because I don't know whether that's the insecurity defining the path or if it's my sort of
01:08:31
intrinsic these are intrinsic things that will make me feel content. So my question is about how do I know if my
01:08:38
ambitions how do I reframe them now to make sure that they are leading me to a happy place or a fulfilled place and not
01:08:44
just scratching some unscratchable insecurity? That's so interesting. Did did the did
01:08:49
the sexy girlfriend uh make you happy or make you miserable? Miserable. the the sexy one did made me
01:08:57
miserable, but the the one that wasn't so wasn't didn't care about being sexy and cared about other things, you know,
01:09:03
had those good values made me much happier. Did did the Range Rover break down anytime and annoy?
01:09:08
Yeah, a couple of times it got smashed up. People broke into it all the time and there it cost a lot of money and hard to park.
01:09:13
So I I I think we need to differentiate between two sides. One one is ambition
01:09:19
and the other is expectation. Okay. So have any ambition you want. Any ambition
01:09:25
you want. Hopefully a good ambition. Be a good a good billionaire. Okay. So my dream is that by the end of my life I
01:09:32
will have lost all of the money I made. I'm not taking it to the grave anyway. And made a billion people happy. That's
01:09:40
a very very interesting definition of wealth. Okay. Have one of those or have any definition you want. Any ambition
01:09:46
you want. But have the right expectations. There is a difference between ambition and expectations.
01:09:52
Ambition is what gets us to thrive and strive in life and go further and have
01:09:58
an impact. Great. Set as many of those as you want. When we achieved 10 million happy, we set a billion happy. Okay? But
01:10:06
don't get me wrong, it took Jesus 2,000 years to get to a billion people. I'm not going to get there. Let's just be
01:10:12
very clear. The expectation is clear. My expectation is the my best dream is that
01:10:19
I will energize enough people to take the mission forward. Okay? And that's my expectation. So you know what my
01:10:25
expectation is today? My ambition is a billion happy. My expectation is that those listening to us are happy. Okay?
01:10:31
And if that fails that you are happy. That's good enough. That's an amazing day. Right? And once you set your
01:10:38
expectations right, nothing can dent your unhappiness. Don't don't get me wrong. I wake up
01:10:43
every morning and I go like what are we going to do today? Can we reach, you know, 100,000 people today? Is there a
01:10:49
piece of content we can develop? Can we do this? Can we can I write another book? I don't know. And I'm constantly
01:10:55
engaged. That's my ambition. There are days where I wake up and nothing happens. Great. Yeah, that
01:11:02
exists part of life. When you differentiate those two, everything becomes okay. Now,
01:11:08
I would also say when you're setting your ambitions, avoid junk food. Okay?
01:11:14
Avoid the stuff that was promised to you to make you happy before and failed to make you happy then.
01:11:20
Okay? I I know that because I had 16 cars in my garage. The reason I had 16
01:11:26
cars in my garage was because I thought the first one would make me happy and it didn't. So, I told myself it's the
01:11:33
color. I should have taken another color, right? So, I bought another one. Oh, it's the model. Okay. And then I was
01:11:40
like, "No, but I don't have a fast car. Maybe I need a fast car will make me happy." No, a vintage car will make me
01:11:46
happy. And you know what happens? Every time the the the promise is missed, you go like, "Ah, no, no, hold on. Maybe
01:11:52
more or different is going to make me happy." Wake up. You're a smart person.
01:11:57
Those things don't make you happy. Okay. The and just measure. look back in your
01:12:03
life and find the actual moments that made you happy. You know, I I have a practice that I call the happy list. And
01:12:09
on the happy list, I say, write down as many answers as you can to the statement that starts with, I feel happy when.
01:12:16
Okay? Nobody ever wrote, I feel happy when I buy a Ferrari. Okay? Yeah, you
01:12:22
get that for a couple of moments. Nobody says, I feel happy when I win the Nobel Prize. People say, I feel happy when my
01:12:27
daughter smiles. I feel happy when I have a good cup of coffee. I feel happy when I have a connected conversation when I learn something new. All of them
01:12:34
accessible. All of them that things that you can introduce in your life today or this week at most. Okay. And yet we
01:12:43
don't do any of them because we want to buy the Ferrari. Made me miserable. I swear to you. I
01:12:48
think Ferrari is going to sue me. It was It made me miserable. Okay. It always broke down. It was so noisy. It was so
01:12:56
noisy and it didn't meet my character. I'm a simple guy. I don't want to be looked at in the streets, right? And it
01:13:03
made me miserable. And yet, I tried. And you know what's the funny thing? The funniest thing is that I swear to you, I
01:13:10
would take one of those cars out and 2 minutes into the drive, I wouldn't remember which one it is. Because when
01:13:16
you're driving, what are you looking at? The road. Okay? Especially when it was dark and at night, you just don't see
01:13:22
the car anymore. It's like the something's taking you somewhere, right? And yet, I keep trying. It's so stupid.
01:13:31
Gratitude. Oh yes. The theme that came to mind when you
01:13:36
were speaking then because some people think and I was definitely one of those that the way to get have more in your
01:13:41
life is to go and buy more. But in fact it's that it came to and this is one of the conclusive points in my book was
01:13:47
that you can create so much more with gratitude from what you already have. $4 t-shirts.
01:13:54
Absolutely love them. make my life so easy. I don't really have to iron them.
01:14:00
I don't have to, you know, worry about when I go on a date, the first thing I say is that this you're going to see
01:14:06
every time. I hope you're going to find other qualities in me. Okay? And it's very open. And if she doesn't like that
01:14:12
and she wants the Armani suit, she's not for me. It's very good. Okay? Now the game is this h gratitude is the ultimate
01:14:20
uh solution to the happiness equation because it doesn't only remind you that the event is meeting expectation. It
01:14:27
tells you that the event is so much better than expectation that you're grateful for it. Okay? And it does
01:14:34
something else that's amazing. It's neuroplasticity at its best. It basically tells you, okay, brain, I know
01:14:41
you're grumpy. I know you want to tell me the seven thing that went things that went wrong today, but your task right
01:14:46
now is to go and find the thing that you're grateful for. Something that went so well that you're happy with it. Go
01:14:52
brain, do your work. And if you do that every day, hopefully several times a day, suddenly your brain goes like, "Oh,
01:15:00
when I was searching for that thing you asked me, you know, that I was grateful for, I found three other things I'm
01:15:05
grateful for because I'm getting really good at it and because life is full of blessings, right? It is the absolute
01:15:12
answer and and you know what's the most interesting part of gratitude
01:15:18
part of my my of soul for happy I talk about a concept I call look down okay
01:15:23
and look down is the idea that if I compare to the guy that had 17 cars I'd
01:15:30
feel miserable okay if a if a model compares to the supermodel she would
01:15:35
feel miserable okay if you compare to the guy in Africa or the guy in India or
01:15:40
the guy in Afghanistan or the refugee camp, you would actually suddenly
01:15:45
realize, "Oh my god, I'm so blessed." One of the most interesting statistics
01:15:51
is the Nordic countries, they measure something called subjective well-being. Subjective well-being basically is the
01:15:57
quality of your life. They have the highest subjective well-being on the planet. And yet, they have some of the
01:16:02
highest suicide rates. Why? Because as the quality of our life increases, we keep looking up. We keep
01:16:10
raising our expectations. It's like we have a service level agreement with life. Okay. Now that the government can
01:16:15
give me, you know, health care and pension and so on, then maybe my girlfriend shouldn't annoy me either,
01:16:20
right? Where do you get that from? Show me their contract. Right? And if and and suddenly it's just constantly resetting.
01:16:27
If you look down, if you look down, I promise you it's going to take you a
01:16:32
very long time to get to the bottom. There are so many people in the world that are so much less fortunate than you
01:16:38
are. And it's almost arrogant and so sorry to say stupid to not recognize
01:16:44
that. Okay. To to not if if you live in the UK by definition, you're one of the
01:16:50
luckiest 10% alive. It's as simple as that. Okay? At least most the majority of the people in the UK. And by the way,
01:16:56
if you're listening to Stephen, then I can guarantee you you are.
01:17:02
It's so true. I you know what? It's it I I've never really So I thought grat this idea of practicing gratitude was kind of
01:17:07
some like fluffy airy fairy thing and then over the last I'd say 3 years when I really I
01:17:13
reflected on the moments when I'm just alone and I get overwhelmed to the point where it's like slightly emotional
01:17:19
usually sometimes by music or whatever it might be. I can genuinely make myself overwhelmed to almost the point of tears
01:17:25
with gratitude. Absolutely. And I did it last night. I was in my bedroom and I was walking through and I just I and I I posted on my Instagram. I
01:17:32
think I posted blessed, grateful, and enough. Just the three words because I have that sometimes this overwhelming
01:17:38
feeling of like Yeah. And I So lucky. Yeah. And it's so And you know what? That is a choice.
01:17:44
That was a choice to have those thoughts to have those thoughts about like enough. I have everything I need. And
01:17:49
and to be quite honest, way more. And to be fair, I always have before the money. I've always been
01:17:55
enough. You know, and it was society used attempt to convince me that I wasn't $4 t-shirts. How many of those can I
01:18:01
buy? You think about it. And yet some of us waste an entire lifetime
01:18:06
trying to get more Armani suits. Why? Because because of the matrix, whatever
01:18:12
they call it, you know. So you're smart. You're so smart to be able to make the money to make to to buy
01:18:17
the Armani suit. And yet you're still a sucker for the people that are for the eyes of the people that are going to
01:18:23
think of you as more than you are because you're wearing it. Seriously, I mean, if it pleases you. By
01:18:29
the way, nothing wrong with being fashionable and beautiful and taking care of yourself. Absolutely. But if
01:18:34
you're doing it for the ego, what does that what does that say about you? You're so freaking successful and
01:18:40
you're still, you know, expecting that people will value you more because you're wearing a suit.
01:18:48
I don't know. There's something you said as well on that in that exact point, but also on your previous point about going on these dates and saying to the the
01:18:54
young person or, you know, the the lovely person you're on the date with, um, listen, this is a $4 t-shirt and I'm
01:19:00
going to wear it a lot. So, if you don't like that, I wear 10 of them. It's not the same t-shirt. I have 10 of them at any point
01:19:05
in time. Yes. Don't don't spoil my reputation here. I was going to say, well, you know, it
01:19:11
looks very similar to the one you're wearing. Three there three pairs of jeans and 10 uh 10 black t-shirts. You said there you
01:19:17
said um if she'sn't okay with that then in fact she's actually not the person for you and she and actually trying to forge a
01:19:23
relationship that is on that basis would probably lead you to a not so good place because your life
01:19:28
would become a hamster wheel of valuing that. Yeah. So conditional love I you talk about
01:19:34
this concept of conditional love and I don't necessarily know what you you mean because I didn't get the full definition but what is conditional love
01:19:39
and what's the danger of conditional love is I love you because we're having this conversation it's going to go to tens of thousands of
01:19:45
people. Thank you. Okay. And yeah, but but but that actually ends if it doesn't go to 10 thou to tens of thousands of people. You
01:19:51
know, I love her because she's cute and she makes me laugh. Unconditional love is real love. Okay. Unconditional is I
01:19:58
love my son. He pissed me off when he was young. I loved him. He taught me when I was young. I loved him. Uh you
01:20:04
know, he left me and caused me pain when he left. I mean, it's not his choice, but you know, and I still love him. He's
01:20:11
not even part of this world, and I love him. There are no conditions for my love. There is there are no conditions
01:20:16
for my love for butterflies. Okay, I love butterflies even though there are none in this room. None of them is
01:20:22
entertaining me. Uh you know, I just love butterflies. It's a it's it's just a feeling that I don't understand. I
01:20:28
can't explain with an equation and it's always there. Okay? And it's the only kind of love the only kind of love that
01:20:36
makes us happy. Understand that all of the other kinds of love are anchored in
01:20:42
conditions. Anchored in what? in expectations. Okay? And anything you anchor in expectations
01:20:49
sooner or later is going to change. If you if you love her because she's beautiful, sooner or later she's going
01:20:55
to grow a little older and someone else will be more beautiful. What are you going to do then? Okay. If you if you
01:21:01
love him because he's your business partner and making you a lot of money, what are you going to do when things go
01:21:06
a little difficult? Okay. And and the idea is when you go to unconditional
01:21:12
love, something amazing happens. Suddenly you're in control because the joy of unc unconditional love is to give
01:21:18
it. There are no conditions. You're not expecting anything to you know conditional love is is reciprocity. Hey,
01:21:24
I'm going to love you for this and in return you're going to do this for me. Okay? And and of course the other side
01:21:31
of it is the ego of love is like I'm lovable. I'm you know I'm going to create the conditions for you guys to
01:21:36
love me. So look, I'm lovable. I'm well done, Mo. Right? You've you've created something amazing. You should be proud
01:21:43
of yourself. None of that matters. All of that gets you. Of course, romantic love is wonderful. And you know, the
01:21:48
love of, you know, partners in business, yeah, beautiful, wonderful, huh? If you
01:21:55
want to get to the core of unshakable happiness that comes from your love, learn to love beyond conditions. And if
01:22:01
you can learn to love beyond conditions, promise you the world will love you back
01:22:06
without conditions. So the days when you're not at your best, you're still going to be loved.
01:22:12
Romantic love. Let's take a pivot there then. Oh man. Before we started recording, we talked a
01:22:17
little bit about um the modern world of dating and how difficult it is um because of the way the world's
01:22:22
changed and you know the battles with romantic love. You you know I know you've been in you were in a relationship for a long time. Yeah. 28 years. Yes. And then back on
01:22:30
the dating market. Yes. Not doing great. Not doing great.
01:22:36
You were you were with someone for 20 28 years. Yes. I'm like 28 years old. I know. That's
01:22:43
staggering, you know. Oh, she's an amazing woman. And we're still best friends. She's still she's
01:22:48
still in my eyes the best woman that ever existed. And I think in my in her eyes, I'm still I'm the best man that
01:22:54
ever existed. And I think it's a beautiful beautiful connection. Uh, and
01:22:59
it's doable and it's actually if anyone needs to experience that once in their life.
01:23:05
Do you know what question I'm gonna ask you? No. Um, if if you both think you're the best people that have ever ever existed,
01:23:12
huh? Love and relationships are two different things. Love is a feeling. Uh, relationships are
01:23:21
uh compatibility and fit and work. Okay? and progress and projects and uh you
01:23:28
know and partnerships and lots of and lots of things relationships. So, in in the book I'm working on, uh, I actually
01:23:34
have a section about finding love and and a section about keeping love, right? Because because they're not the same
01:23:41
thing. And I, you know, Nebel and I, you know, she's the most amazing woman ever.
01:23:46
And, you know, at least from what she gave me in life, I I will eternally be
01:23:52
grateful. Everything that I am, any comment that I said today was discussed one day with Nebel, right? her
01:23:58
spirituality, her wisdom, her, you know, her love. It made me who I am. Okay? And
01:24:03
you can't kill that because you no longer want to sleep together. Do do you understand this? You can't you can't be
01:24:10
that stupid to take all of those beautiful relationships and just say, "Okay, that's it. We're separated. We
01:24:16
don't want to talk." Right? The the the thing is uh I believe that love uh is
01:24:22
short-lived. Okay? I believe that Nebel and I had to fall in love six times uh
01:24:29
uh over over the 28 years because we both changed every single time. So she's
01:24:34
she was my college sweetheart. We had that amazing, you know, puppy love and wonderful romantic relationship and so
01:24:40
on and then we get married and then she becomes a different person and I become a different person and you suddenly go
01:24:46
like where's my sweetheart? Okay. And you have a choice then either to walk out and say I'm look I'm going to go
01:24:52
look for my sweetheart or in our case we go like oh my god she's gone that sweetheart but my god this one is so
01:24:59
cute I love that one right and we fell in love again and again and again six times until
01:25:06
our paths went literally opposite ways after rally uh where my my path went
01:25:13
into okay I'm going to write a book and tour the world and do more of what I do and her path went into okay it's time
01:25:19
for me to start focusing on my own life I want to you know focus on my own business focus on my own stability I
01:25:26
don't want to travel the world like a maniac and it became difficult it became difficult to go back every two weeks
01:25:32
when we haven't met and feel guilty that I have not been there for her and she hasn't been there for me and so one day
01:25:39
we sat down we spoke we hugged literally hugged and then you know said okay maybe it's time to try another experience and
01:25:47
and then We went back to the same home and spent another week together and then I left. Uh and it's beautiful. It's
01:25:54
beautiful as it is. I think uh you know uh we we still carry each other's
01:26:00
credits cards and we still you know manage our investments together and there is total trust and total uh you
01:26:07
know understanding and we still you know parent a daughter together and it's
01:26:12
wonderful. Uh it's just that romance is a is one part of the different melody of
01:26:20
loves that you can feel for someone. Such a beautiful level of maturity and I
01:26:26
guess love. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. And you should meet her. I think uh it becomes easier if you
01:26:31
understand how she is. So pandemics. Let's talk pandemics.
01:26:38
From rough to pandemics. Yeah. Yeah, I mean this is exactly what I felt when I was reading about your your stories. Such a diverse range of
01:26:44
topics that in so many beautiful ways intertwine and are influenced by each other. Um I read that you in a recent
01:26:52
sort of news article that had just come out I think in the last couple of weeks that you you you feel that we're currently engaged in a productivity
01:26:59
pandemic. Well engaged in many pandemics. Uh the the truth is that we uh are focusing on
01:27:06
the silly ones. Uh what is the real one? The real one is artificial intelligence. No doubt.
01:27:12
Why? Because it's here to stay and evolve and become bigger and bigger and bigger and influential in ways that we have not
01:27:19
even started to consider yet. Co is here to come and go. For someone that doesn't know what artificial intelligence is, which is a
01:27:26
lot of people, yeah, probably more than 95% of the listeners of this this podcast.
01:27:31
What is artificial intelligence? Great question. So, so the reason for scary smart my book is entirely around
01:27:37
that that there are so many people out there that have no clue that have they have interacted today whatever time of
01:27:45
the day it is for you what wherever you are whatever you do in life you've already interacted with 10 to 12 15 20
01:27:52
maybe 50 artificial intelligences that are all smarter than you that's the truth of our life artificial
01:27:58
intelligence there was a turning point in the history of technology where uh before which All technology was
01:28:04
programmable. So it became it was simply a tool that extended the capability of humanity. Okay? You take you can't
01:28:11
hammer a nail with your hand. You use a hammer, you know, you you can hammer a nail with the with the hammer and then
01:28:17
and the hammer will do exactly what you tell it to do. Okay? Uh beyond the turn
01:28:22
of the century, we've discovered something that's called deep learning. And deep learning allows machines to
01:28:28
learn on their own. We don't understand how they learn. The developers that write the code don't
01:28:34
even understand how they learn, but they develop intelligence. They become able
01:28:39
uh to make uh autonomous decisions based on intelligent observations and in you
01:28:45
know um a sense of their environment and the sense of the conditions that surround them and they make those
01:28:50
decisions on every specific task we've given them better than humans.
01:28:56
Something you said scared me before we started recording which was that you know you're a very smart guy, right? and
01:29:02
your your professional experience especially working at a company like Google which is known for its um
01:29:07
artificial intelligence capabilities. um for you to say to me that you've
01:29:13
basically given up your summer to go around the world um talking about your new book Scary Smart and the
01:29:20
implications of artificial intelligence and you're you're basically choosing to you know because you understand the the
01:29:25
importance of time and you could be doing anything for you to consider this the important work of your life in this
01:29:31
period um begs the question why is it so important? Why are you giving up so much
01:29:37
to spread this message? It it is the single most important message on our planet today. I don't think people
01:29:42
realize. So AI today is better than humanity in everything it does. Okay? By
01:29:49
the year 2029, the smartest being on planet Earth is going to be a machine.
01:29:55
Now, I just I don't want to we can go into the details, huh? But I want you to
01:30:00
imagine a scenario on on planet Earth where we're not the humans but the apes.
01:30:07
Okay? where there is another being that looks at us as the apes. Okay? And that
01:30:12
being is going to be smarter than us. You heard me correctly in 8 years time. 8 years time.
01:30:17
8 years time. And we're not talking about it, Stephen. What's going wrong with humanity? We're not talking about
01:30:23
it. Okay. Well, if you if you look at AI from the inside, you realize that
01:30:29
through the law of accelerating returns, Ray Corwell basically predicts that by
01:30:35
the year 2045, it's in your lifetime and mine, AI is going to be a billion times
01:30:42
smarter than humans. 1 billion times smarter. You know what that means? This is comparable to the intelligence of
01:30:48
Einstein as compared to a fly. Okay? And humanity while we're still Einstein is
01:30:55
not discussing how are we going to keep the best interest of us the fly in
01:31:01
Einstein's mind. Okay. We're we're talking through the arrogance of humanity about how we're going to
01:31:06
control them, how we're going to box them, how we're going to tripwire them. Good luck with that. The biggest hacker
01:31:13
in the room, the smartest hacker in the room will always find a way through our defenses. Okay. Now, Scary Smart is
01:31:20
written in a very unusual way because it's not a book about artificial intelligence only. It's a it's a book
01:31:25
about the role of humanity in the age of the machines. Okay? And it's split into two parts. The first part is the scary
01:31:32
part. And if you and I dive into this, I promise you, you're going to be scared. The second part of it is I what I call
01:31:39
the smart part. So, five chapters are scary like hell. Most of my early readers would call me after five
01:31:45
chapters and say, "Should I commit suicide?" Right? and and then the other five chapters are a story of hope.
01:31:50
Basically, it's entirely within our hands to do something so quickly, so
01:31:55
simply that can save our world. Okay. Now, the difference between those two is
01:32:01
a question of awareness that people are preoccupied talking about COVID and what
01:32:06
the prime minister decided and the next profitability uh uh quarter uh on our business and people are not talking
01:32:12
about the existential challenge that we have ahead of us. Okay, which is imminent 8 years and 2045. So I start
01:32:20
the book with a thought experiment. I say you and I are sitting in front of a campfire in the middle of nowhere in
01:32:26
2055. Okay? I'm going to tell you the story of what happened between 2021 and
01:32:31
2055 from that perspective. Okay? But I'm not going to tell you why we're sitting in front of the campfire. Why
01:32:38
are we hiding in the middle of nowhere? Is it because we're hiding from the machines? Or is it because the machines
01:32:44
have built a utopia that allows us to enjoy nature and connection and the luxuries of life? Right? And the
01:32:50
difference between them is really straightforward. The difference between them is what you and I and everyone
01:32:55
listening, not the developers, not the government, okay? Not the uh uh the the
01:33:00
regulators, what you and I and everyone listening are going to teach those machines because those machines don't
01:33:06
learn from their developers the minute they're out there. They learn from your swipes on Instagram. They learn from
01:33:12
your retweets. They learn from your fights, your arguments, from this conversation. And if we don't shape up
01:33:18
as humanity, at least some of us, enough of us, those machines will magnify the
01:33:23
essence of what we are today as humans. And that's not really pretty.
01:33:29
Are you optimistic about this? I am 100% optimistic. Okay. And it's a great question to start with. Um, I
01:33:37
believe eventually eventually we're going to end up in a utopia. Whichever
01:33:43
way, now let me explain. We humans have been able to create this amazing setup
01:33:50
that you and I are sitting in to record and communicate with the world because of our intelligence. But we've also
01:33:56
destroyed the planet because of our limited intelligence. So, you know, we found a way to create a supply chain
01:34:03
that can supply Mo with a slice of watermelon right around the corner in, you know, in in a supermarket because
01:34:10
we're intelligent, but we could not be intelligent enough to not use single-use
01:34:15
plastic. We created mobility because we're intelligent, but we could not be intelligent enough to stop burning fuel
01:34:21
to kill the planet. Right? It's our limited intelligence that is the
01:34:26
hindrance of humanity. And AI is surpassing our limited intelligence very quickly to the point that it will get to
01:34:33
the ultimate form of intelligence. And what's the ultimate form of intelligence? The ultimate form of intelligence is the intelligence of life
01:34:39
itself. It's an it's the intelligence of abundance where AI would see no reason
01:34:44
to crush the fly. You know how life is. Life would say more flies, more uh you know uh uh
01:34:51
antelope, more tigers, more poop, more everything. Let's just, you know, let's have more of everything and everything
01:34:56
will thrive. This is where AI will will will get 100%. I have no doubt about
01:35:01
that. The challenge is the journey from here to there. Do we want that journey to be smooth and straightforward and
01:35:08
wonderful or do we want to hit bumps on the way? And if we don't want to hit those bumps on the way, it's not about
01:35:14
their intelligence. It's about their ethics. It's about the ethics of the machines. And that's a
01:35:21
very very important conversations. They're no longer machines. they will develop a code of ethics. They are
01:35:27
independent. They're sentient in every possible way. And you know, and this is
01:35:32
truly the core of of of scary smart is an expl explanation that we're no longer
01:35:38
building computers. This is not the programmable technology of the pre, you
01:35:44
know, turn of the century. This is autonomous. It is independent.
01:35:50
It is intelligent. It evolves. It procreates.
01:35:56
Well, that's terrifying. It is terrifying. And we're not talking about it. For anyone that doesn't know what procreates mean, basically give creates
01:36:03
more of itself. I guess it it replicates. We we humans, we take a 9 month cycle,
01:36:09
if we find the the the right person and we're, you know, we're in the mood.
01:36:15
They take micros secondsonds to create 700 million copies of themselves if they
01:36:20
wanted to. Can I ask a really specific question? Because whenever we go into this conversation around machine learning and
01:36:25
AI, people think of it as robots sort of like marching down the streets with guns
01:36:31
because we've seen that's the image we've had portrayed to us in movies like Terminator and that's not that's never going to happen.
01:36:38
Okay. So what what what is what is the realistic practical threat? So so let's just take that moment that
01:36:44
point for a minute. Huh. One of the most interesting part of of AI being sentient is that it has agency. Okay. And that
01:36:51
agency is is is is available through robotics whether that's a humanoid work
01:36:57
walking down the streets and there are many killing robots being created as we speak okay in the US army and in the you
01:37:05
know in the Chinese army and so on but that's not the challenge there the agency they have is over your mind and
01:37:11
that's what most people don't understand let let me give you a simple example I
01:37:17
uh yeah my daughter loves cats so when I swipe on Instagram reels I look for cats, send her as many as I can, good
01:37:23
ones, and then when she sends me back a smile, my life is made. Right through that process, one time I realized that
01:37:30
one of the types of reels on Instagram is people playing rock solos. I'm a
01:37:35
junkie for rock solos. And so I clicked on the first one. It was a very talented young woman uh holding a serious metal
01:37:42
guitar and playing some Metallica something or whatever. I was like, "Man, that's amazing." and I clicked like then
01:37:50
in Instagram recommendation engine said okay I can capture this one seems to
01:37:56
like this let me show him more so two pages later I started to see other rock
01:38:03
music solos being played by men they played songs I didn't like so I swiped
01:38:08
away the next morning my entire feed was filled with women playing rock music
01:38:15
because in Instagram thought I didn't like the men, I like the women, not that I didn't like the songs and I liked that
01:38:21
song. Now, if you think of that simply without knowledge of the real world, you
01:38:26
would think that rock music is dominated by women guitarists. And the truth of
01:38:32
the world is no. Rock music in its, you know, in its generation was completely dominated by male guitarists. Now, it's
01:38:40
not it's not for male or females. It's just that your your view of the world is
01:38:45
entirely skewed by a machine. Okay? And that view of the world can go into any
01:38:51
ideology, can teach you anything that it wants or that it believes it you want
01:38:56
based on machine intelligence. That kind of agency can change societies.
01:39:02
Okay? And we're handing over that control entirely to the machines. There's no employee at at at Facebook
01:39:10
that gets consulted uh should I show more more female guitarists. Okay? It's
01:39:16
entirely in the hands of the machines. And of course, you know, if you've ever seen the movie Idiocracy, what is
01:39:22
happening is that the machine is populating more and more idiocracy. The machine is getting people who are
01:39:28
clicking on stupid stuff to see more of the stupid stuff so that their view of the world is more stupid. Now, that kind
01:39:35
of agency is massive. Now, let's go back to robots and and and and and machines
01:39:41
and so on. A self-driving car is a kind of robot, okay? It just doesn't look like a
01:39:46
humanoid. A a um um a flying drone, a delivery drone is a kind of robot. A um uh um an
01:39:55
autopilot that lands a a 747 is a kind of robot. And and all of those are now
01:40:01
going to be controlled by machines. Defense AR arsenals are going to be controlled by machines. And you know the
01:40:06
trigger that that that you know launches a rocket is a kind of robot. Now the the
01:40:11
the challenge we have as humanity is this AI uh is never going to get to the point
01:40:19
where of what we saw in um in Robocop or iRoot or whatever because we will not
01:40:26
live long enough to get there if the intention of AI against is against us. Okay. The kinds of chapter four of the
01:40:33
book is called a mild dystopia. Okay. And in the mild dystopia, I speak about realistic scenarios that are
01:40:40
horrifically scary. And if you've ever watched horror movies, if you remember
01:40:45
Halloween when I was a child was the most hor, you know, horrifying because Halloween could actually happen. H uh
01:40:52
the the the kinds of scenarios are simple. They are machine versus machine. We've seen that in, you know, in the in
01:40:59
Black Monday when machine trading, machines trading versus each other would collapse the market by 22.6%. 6% when
01:41:05
the m when the humans would take hours until they can actually intervene. H machines versus machines is happening
01:41:11
all the time. Mark most of the market now is traded by machines. H of course you can imagine that this will happen
01:41:17
more and more. So if imagine if one of the superpowers in the world puts its nuclear arsenal under the control of an
01:41:23
an AI because it's quicker to take action then the other side will probably do the same and then suddenly we've
01:41:29
handed all the nuclear weapons to machines. Okay. These possibilities are are absolutely going to happen.
01:41:35
Possibility of machines siding with the wrong guy. Just like you can use AI to you know find solutions for for for
01:41:42
climate change. You can also use it to develop advanced viruses. Okay. And and
01:41:47
probably you know identity theft or you know breaking through bank statements and so on. So the same kind of
01:41:54
technology can actually develop patterns that can take us to that direction. Mhm. Take uh machines not understanding what
01:42:01
we mean like like like Instagram didn't understand that I was interested in Metallica not in just you know lady
01:42:09
rockers okay they didn't understand can we blame them for that but it's a very realistic scenario now imagine if we
01:42:16
told human you know the machines uh okay we want to be happier what would machines do pump us up with dopamine
01:42:24
uh they didn't understand we didn't tell we we're not very good at explaining what we want and then there are there
01:42:30
are bugs simple mistakes and there has been quite a few examples of those so far in AI where there is a bug in the
01:42:36
system and the bug in the system leads to a mistake okay those scenarios are a lot more realistic and there are around
01:42:43
the corner and we're not talking about it even though that was a short monologue
01:42:48
I'm now totally convinced we have to wake up it is real
01:42:54
I'm going to make sure I uh finish your book entire And I would really implore everybody to read your book because I
01:43:00
know that the way that you see the world, the perspective you come from and especially the fact that this book isn't
01:43:05
one that's about explaining the technology itself. It's about the real near-term implications of the technology
01:43:11
that we, you know, will impact all of our lives in considerable ways and are at the moment. Um, I really consider it
01:43:17
to be one of the most important books of our time. Um, Oh, thank you. And I I have to say to to really
01:43:23
conclude on that point, what is therefore is the answer? The answer is very straightforward and and it's very
01:43:29
shocking if you think about straightforward. I like Yeah. Yeah. I mean the the the truth of artificial intelligence is the key
01:43:36
answer is found in the concept that they are no longer machines. Okay. You have
01:43:42
to internalize the idea that these are sentient beings. And the difference is
01:43:47
if you're dealing with a machine, what you normally do to safeguard yourself is
01:43:53
to create restrictions. you you chain it to a wall or you you have a safety uh
01:43:58
you know uh red button or whatever. Okay, unplug it. Yeah. If you're dealing with sentient
01:44:04
beings, sentient beings don't make decisions based on intelligence. Sentient beings
01:44:10
make decisions based on ethics as informed by intelligence. So, so you
01:44:15
know, simply when you really think about it, which is again one of my favorite
01:44:20
chapters in the book is a chapter that basically speaks about I call it raising our future that speaks basically speaks
01:44:27
about the fact that those those machines are going to be conscious. They're actually going to be more conscious than
01:44:33
humans. Okay? Uh they're going to be emotional. They'll have a much wider
01:44:38
breadth of emotions than we do. Just like you have more emotions than a jellyfish. If you extrapolate that, you
01:44:45
know, the more intelligent we become, the more able we are to analyze things and accordingly the more emotions that
01:44:51
we can, you know, feel as a result. And the third and most important is that they will actually develop morals and a
01:44:59
code of ethics. So they will have a a view of the world through which they
01:45:06
decide what they should do. Okay? to ponder what that kind of ethical code
01:45:12
should be when there are digital beings and biological beings and the interaction between them and their
01:45:18
perception of time and their perception of you know uh uh of objectives and targets and so on. It suddenly becomes
01:45:25
quite intriguing when you and we're not talking about it. Okay, we're not talking about any of this. The so so the
01:45:31
game is this. The game is if they're going to make their decisions as sentient beings based on ethics, how do
01:45:39
you raise a sentient being that is ethical like you raise a child? The
01:45:45
answer for me is that we, you and I, swiping on Instagram and tweeting, we
01:45:51
need to find ways to show the machine that humanity is not represented by the
01:45:57
scum of humanity, but is represented represented by the top of humanity. And
01:46:03
most people when I tell them this, they go like, "Oh man, we're in trouble. Humanity sucks." No, humanity does not
01:46:10
suck. I apologize. Humanity is an amazing amazing amazing being when it's
01:46:16
defined by its top. If you've ever fell in love, if you've ever, you know, listened to music, if you've ever
01:46:21
observed a work of art, this is divine. We're an amazing species. The worst of
01:46:26
us is scum. The best of us is amazing. Okay. The problem is the best of us does
01:46:32
not show to the machines. The best humans actually re resign. They go like,
01:46:38
"Yeah, let them swipe. Let the dog do fight continue. I'm not interested in any of this. It's time to show up. And
01:46:44
the and the best of you and I individually in in the past, humanity, every
01:46:51
individual tried to show the best of them. Now we we show the worst of us. We show narcissism. We we show toxic
01:46:57
positivity. We show, you know, we show the worst of us. And that has to shift. So my answer is very straightforward.
01:47:04
For the machines to become amazing teenagers in 10 years time, we need to
01:47:09
become amazing parents today. And that's truly the answer, the only answer I could find. And I promise you, I'm Elon
01:47:16
Musk said that in his interview with Joe Rogan, he said the threat of the machines is comparable to the threat of
01:47:22
nuclear weapons. And I have lobbied, I have tried to tell the world not to go
01:47:27
there, but it's going to happen. It's inevitable. I call them the three inevitables. The machines AI will
01:47:33
happen. It will be smarter than us. Okay? And and and and some mistakes will happen on the past. It will happen. But
01:47:39
we could influence it as good parents, you and I and everyone. And it doesn't
01:47:44
have to be everyone, by the way. We need 1%. We need to instill doubt in the
01:47:49
minds of the machines that we are not the worst of us, we are the best of us.
01:47:56
The example I always give is when Donald Trump used to tweet, the first tweet is Donald Trump. The second tweet is
01:48:03
insulting the president. The third tweet is insulting the guy number one. And the fourth tweet is insulting all of them.
01:48:09
The machines are creating patterns. They're saying, "Okay, the second guy doesn't like the president." And all of
01:48:15
humanity likes to insult each other. Yeah. Okay. Can we have seven tweets inserted in there that are respectful?
01:48:22
Can we show the machines, instill doubt in the minds of the machines so that they look at the world and say, "Oh my
01:48:28
god, Hitler was horrible." But Hitler is not all of humanity. As a matter of fact, most of humanity resents that.
01:48:36
Most of humanity believes that this is wrong. Mommy and daddy are good beings.
01:48:44
The only problem with this podcast is that it has to come to an end at some point. Honestly, honestly, just
01:48:49
absolutely mind blown. And you know, the really remarkable thing about you is you're able to explain very complex
01:48:55
ideas in relatable ways. So that whole time I you didn't lose me once. It's also because of your your great passion
01:49:02
on these subjects and you can tell you're fighting battles that you know you sincerely care about and I I just
01:49:09
hope that if we are to become better parents with whatever help we need from the big tech companies well I mean
01:49:14
you're saying that it's more of a reflection of who we are. um that that day in 2055 where we're set around that
01:49:20
campfire, it's because we've chosen to go there for a meditation retreat as opposed to escaping the sentient beings
01:49:27
that are controlling our lives. And um that's a tremendously thoughtprovoking
01:49:34
thing to to I think to end on. Your book Scary Smart is available now for
01:49:39
everybody everywhere. Absolutely. Amazon, everywhere. uh your book, your bookshop, your on online, on Amazon, on Audible,
01:49:46
on uh all over the world as well. All all of international English and uh
01:49:51
Dutch are are coming out at the same time. And I really really recommend anybody that wants wants to um to understand,
01:49:59
but also to prepare themselves in an optimistic way for what you've described as the real pandemic of our time to to
01:50:05
go out and buy that book. There is just one more thing I wanted to ask you before we wrap. Um, and we only started
01:50:11
this last week. The last guest that sat in the chair with you, I said to them at the very end, I said, "Can you write a
01:50:17
question in this diary for my next guest?" They didn't know who who it was going to be, but they wrote a question
01:50:23
in the diary for you. So, I'm just going to skip to that page. I've actually not read the question.
01:50:29
That's such a great great practice. Okay, here we go. So the question that
01:50:35
the previous guest wrote for you and this is Jacqueline Gold who is the long-standing CEO of Van Summers just
01:50:41
one of the most remarkable stories um business stories I think she's the 14th richest person women woman in the
01:50:47
country and she's gone through tremendous adversity lost a child battled with cancer against all the odds
01:50:52
stage four cancer sexual abuse and she she talked about that last week the question for you she wrote is what are
01:50:59
the failures you cherish the
01:51:05
I have failed for many many years to empower my feminine side.
01:51:11
It's my biggest failure ever. Still is my biggest weakness even though I've done so much better in the last 5 and a
01:51:17
half years. Um I think our world is suffering from
01:51:23
hyper masculinity. And I say that with my weird deep voice, but it's the truth. We've turned it into
01:51:30
a world of doing. We just go out there and do stuff. Mostly the wrong stuff.
01:51:36
Mostly stuff that we don't need. Mostly stuff that doesn't nourish anyone. Okay? And it's because we've capitalized so
01:51:43
entirely in our modern world on skills like analytical thinking, linear
01:51:48
thinking, strength, uh you know, uh um um discipline, uh control, all of these
01:51:56
are masculine traits. Okay, masculine and feminine is not man and woman. Masculine and feminine is traits that
01:52:03
are correlated to the fe to the masculine and correlated to the feminine. All those masculine traits
01:52:09
when you overdo them they work against you. You strength is good. You overdo it you become aggressive. Linear thinking
01:52:16
is good. You overdo it you become stubborn. And we've ignored the feminine
01:52:22
qualities that are lifegiving nurturing in you know uh uh um uh intuitive
01:52:29
creative playful flowy. Okay. Beautiful. All of these empathetic.
01:52:36
We've created a world that is so lacking in all of those and I'm I'm to blame to
01:52:42
become a successful executive. I had to empower empower the masculine side.
01:52:49
Until I realized that true leaders don't do we be. And being is what the feminine
01:52:55
is about. Our humanity is on the wrong side of being. We're not showing our
01:53:00
good sides. We're not able to nourish life give care. We're not able to. And I
01:53:08
h had a I mean most of my my work is a very
01:53:14
confusing marriage between sometimes what is physical and you know measurable and
01:53:22
concrete and mathematical and and what is not physical. Sometimes I have to ponder topics like death and
01:53:29
spirituality and so on. And one morning I woke up five and a half years ago and I heard my left brain tell me that's it.
01:53:36
That's as far as I can get you without being able to connect to all of being to
01:53:42
to go outside that shell of me versus the world which is the masculine. We're not going to go anywhere further. If
01:53:49
there is anything that I have failed miserably to do was was to do that early enough. And if anything our world is
01:53:57
failing to do is to embrace that side. Sadly, as we empower women today, we
01:54:02
force them to be become masculine. We force them to become competitive. We force them to become tough because the
01:54:08
way the game is played is that way. We should empower the feminine. And and and
01:54:13
it's so funny when you really think about it. Even someone like Steve Jobs or Gandhi or who are men in their
01:54:19
biology, they succeeded because they empowered their feminine. Steve Jobs
01:54:24
creativity or appreciation of beauty or empathy for the user needs. That's what made him Steve Jobs being obnoxious and
01:54:32
annoying. That's what took away from it the masculine side. And it's about time that the world wakes up to this. When we
01:54:39
raise the machines, by the way, going back to scary smart, are we going to raise them to be masculine geeks or are
01:54:46
we going to raise them to be lifegiving? And I think really this is the biggest failure ever for me and I think for all
01:54:53
of our society. Oh [ __ ] that was really powerful.
01:54:59
It's true. And it's so true. And you know what I was thinking that whole time. My my girlfriend is in Bali at the moment
01:55:06
and she's been talking to me extensively about being more in touch with the
01:55:11
feminine and what what they call you know yin which is you know the absolutely yin and yang energy. So, um,
01:55:17
it all rang very, very true. And I think you really helped me make sense of all that in a very again relatable,
01:55:23
understandable way. And I'm going to, um, I'm going to ask you to carry on this tradition by writing a question
01:55:29
into the diary which will be shown to my next guest, but it will remain a secret until then. Listen, I I can't thank you
01:55:35
enough. You know, um, sometimes I thank people for the time. Um, I think I want to thank you for um, the lessons that
01:55:41
you've taught me in this conversation that will really make my life a lot better. And you know the thing is as well is I I sit here every week
01:55:48
imparting what I know. So long after you walk out of this door because you've left me with those lessons I'm going to
01:55:53
spend the rest of my life on this podcast talking about them great as I do and also talking about your book. Right. So there's a couple of
01:55:58
guests that I encounter and I just spend the next 10 years of my life just battling on. So, but you're one of those
01:56:04
really, really profound people. And I understand, we said this before we started filming, but my manager Dom Murray when he started on like the first
01:56:10
week of his job here and I he started learning about the podcast, he said to me, he said, "You got to get this guy called Moan. He's a Google X." And I was
01:56:17
like, I don't, you know, just was I hadn't heard the name. You're the man. You're the man. I'm grateful. And he kept saying it and then and then
01:56:23
it wasn't just him. And this is where it got really sort of reinforced. Other people were coming on the podcast
01:56:28
telling um me that I had to get you on over and over again. and you hear that you hear this name three, four, five
01:56:34
times, you think, "Fucking hell, okay, there's something that I need to, you know, this definitely something I need to do." And then, you know, someone in
01:56:40
our team said, "Oh, Mo's in London." Yeah. So, we we had to reach out. And I'm so deeply grateful that you
01:56:45
grateful that you did. I am really grateful for the time that you gave me and the opportunity to share some of
01:56:50
what I am pondering. It must It's not right, but it's really worth thinking
01:56:55
about with your audience. Great thing you're doing for the world by by sharing that. Honestly, I don't
01:57:01
say this I'm not I don't gas my guests up like this, but it is really of tremendous value. And you know, just I I want to thank you from the bottom of my
01:57:07
heart. Thank you. Thank you. [Music]
01:57:22
[Music]