00:00:00
It drives me crazy that nobody else
00:00:01
thinks about risk in this way. People
00:00:03
look at my life and they're like, "Well,
00:00:04
you're crazy. You're such a risk taker."
00:00:06
Well, at least I'm taking the risks that
00:00:08
I'm choosing because think of all the
00:00:09
people that like go out partying every
00:00:11
weekend and they get buzzed and they
00:00:12
drive home. And even sedendary people
00:00:14
who are like, "Well, I don't take risk.
00:00:15
I stay home and I play video games." No,
00:00:17
you're at a much higher risk of heart
00:00:18
disease. Like, they're taking all kinds
00:00:19
of risk that they're not actually
00:00:21
choosing to take and you're still going
00:00:22
to freaking die either way. So, you
00:00:24
might as well take smart, calculated
00:00:25
risks and do all the things that you
00:00:27
want to do and at least die happy when
00:00:28
you go. He's done it. Alice Honold has
00:00:31
made history again, scaling one of the
00:00:32
world's tallest skyscrapers.
00:00:34
>> But the conclusion that a lot of people
00:00:36
have arrived at is that you don't
00:00:37
experience fear because when they look
00:00:39
at these two brain scans, your amydala
00:00:40
is lighting up less when you're shown
00:00:42
scary images. I I actually hate all the
00:00:44
brain stuff because people always put me
00:00:45
in this box. They're like, "Well, you're
00:00:46
different." And I'm like, "Well, not
00:00:47
really. Like, I'm a middle class
00:00:49
suburban kid. Nobody in my family is
00:00:50
athletic. I just after 20 years of
00:00:52
climbing 5 days a week and being really
00:00:53
freaking scared, I respond differently
00:00:55
than an average person." And there was
00:00:56
tons of emotional turmoil throughout it.
00:00:58
Periods where you're just like I'm
00:00:59
trying so hard and I'm just like not as
00:01:01
good as I want to be. You know, I was
00:01:02
like living in a car. I had like a
00:01:03
couple hundred bucks a month for 10
00:01:04
years. Like that's challenging. But you
00:01:06
just can't master a craft overnight. I
00:01:08
guess that's what people don't see. And
00:01:10
so how do you create the conditions to
00:01:12
out persist other people? And then in
00:01:14
all your career, when is the moment
00:01:15
where you were most scared?
00:01:16
>> On an expedition to Antarctica. I kept
00:01:18
hoping that it's going to get better and
00:01:19
it just kept getting worse. Like I could
00:01:21
die.
00:01:21
>> Do you have a conversation with your
00:01:22
partner before you go and do something
00:01:24
like this? because she wrote a letter.
00:01:25
>> Oh gosh.
00:01:26
>> Obviously, this is your worst nightmare,
00:01:28
she said. But we all have to do scary
00:01:30
things sometimes, Alex.
00:01:34
>> Guys, I've got a quick favor to ask you.
00:01:36
We're approaching a significant
00:01:38
subscriber milestone on this show, and
00:01:40
roughly 69% of you that listen and love
00:01:42
this show haven't yet subscribed for
00:01:44
whatever reason. If there was ever a
00:01:46
time for you to do us a favor, if we've
00:01:48
ever done anything for you, given you
00:01:50
value in any way, it is simply hitting
00:01:52
that subscribe button. and it means so
00:01:54
much to myself but also to my team
00:01:55
because when we hit these milestones we
00:01:56
go away as a team and celebrate and it's
00:01:58
the thing the simple free easy thing you
00:02:00
can do to help make this show a little
00:02:01
bit better every single week. So that's
00:02:04
a favor I would ask you and um if you do
00:02:06
hit the subscribe button I won't let you
00:02:08
down and we'll continue to find small
00:02:10
ways to make this whole production
00:02:11
better. Thank you so much for being part
00:02:13
of this journey. Means the world. And uh
00:02:15
yeah, let's do this.
00:02:20
Alex to understand you. I think from
00:02:24
everything I've learned about you, from
00:02:25
the research I've done, from speaking to
00:02:28
your wife, your agent, everybody I could
00:02:30
speak to, I think to understand your
00:02:33
context, we first need to understand the
00:02:36
circumstances in which you were raised
00:02:37
and the childhood you had because it
00:02:38
seems to be I mean for all of us there's
00:02:40
like fingerprints left on us that define
00:02:43
the anomaly um that many of us become
00:02:46
including yourself. So what do I need to
00:02:48
know? What does the viewer need to know
00:02:49
about the early context?
00:02:50
>> I mean, how deep do you want to go? I
00:02:52
need get a sofa. I need to reply. Like,
00:02:55
all right. Uh, but yeah, certainly
00:02:57
there's a there's an imprint from my
00:02:59
parents, my upbringing. I mean, they had
00:03:00
a a very fraught relationship. They
00:03:02
eventually got divorced, but they stayed
00:03:03
together for the kids and it was a whole
00:03:05
like, you know, say a tense home life
00:03:07
because neither of them really liked
00:03:08
each other. And then my mom is very
00:03:10
driven, very,
00:03:13
you know, high performing. And then my
00:03:14
dad was hard to say. I mean, I think my
00:03:16
dad was deeply depressed basically the
00:03:17
whole time I knew him cuz he was in this
00:03:19
relation. You know, it's hard to tell.
00:03:20
He wasn't living his best life. And then
00:03:22
sadly after they got divorced, he was he
00:03:24
was much happier, but then he died. And
00:03:25
so then never really got to see uh never
00:03:28
really got to see him blossom that much.
00:03:30
>> And your mother's high performing. And
00:03:32
did did she sort of implicitly demand
00:03:34
that of you in any way?
00:03:35
>> Yeah, I mean my mother speaks like seven
00:03:37
or eight languages. She like plays every
00:03:38
instrument. It's like kind of crazy.
00:03:39
She's very artistically minded in that
00:03:42
way, like you know, the arts and
00:03:44
classical sense. But um yeah, she I mean
00:03:46
she wanted us to do all those things
00:03:47
too. I'm a deep disappointment in that
00:03:49
regard.
00:03:51
>> There was a phrase that I saw when I was
00:03:53
watching the documentary that your your
00:03:54
mother would continually say which I
00:03:56
think translates to something like not
00:03:57
good enough like pressing a ka like
00:04:00
almost like almost doesn't count. It's
00:04:03
funny because I feel like uh a lot of my
00:04:05
adult life now one of my sort of go-to
00:04:07
sayings is you know don't let perfect be
00:04:09
the enemy of good. I'm really into like
00:04:11
good enough. Like it's better to like
00:04:12
try. It's better to do something, you
00:04:14
know, it's better to fail quickly and
00:04:16
learn and keep moving forward than to
00:04:18
not try something. Like basically, I
00:04:19
don't want to be crippled by
00:04:20
perfectionism. Sort of like my mom is
00:04:22
very much a perfectionist, you know,
00:04:23
like if you can't do it right, don't do
00:04:25
it. I'm sort of like I think it's better
00:04:27
to try and learn and improve,
00:04:29
>> but she's accomplished a lot of things
00:04:30
with that approach.
00:04:31
>> Yeah, she Yeah, she has for sure.
00:04:33
>> What about emotions? This is something
00:04:34
you I've had heard you sort of talked
00:04:36
about a lot is in that environment where
00:04:38
your mother and father aren't getting
00:04:40
along well. I think I I heard you say
00:04:41
that your you hadn't seen your father
00:04:43
really happy before he'd passed away.
00:04:45
>> Yeah.
00:04:46
>> Was it an emotional household in terms
00:04:48
of affection?
00:04:49
>> No, it was a very unemotional household.
00:04:51
That said though, you know, it was a
00:04:52
safe, relatively happy household. Like
00:04:54
it was it was fine, you know, and and I
00:04:55
was close to a lot of my extended
00:04:56
family. And so I had a really good
00:04:57
relation with my grandparents and some
00:04:59
my aunts and uncles. And so I mean I
00:05:01
basically would have characterized it as
00:05:02
a totally happy family life until I
00:05:04
became older and started seeing other
00:05:06
people's families more and was kind of
00:05:07
like, "Oh, this seems even happier." You
00:05:08
know what I mean? It's like basically
00:05:10
really good until you see what what else
00:05:12
it can be and then you're like this
00:05:13
seems even better.
00:05:15
>> And your mom wasn't ever affectionate.
00:05:17
>> You know, it always feels slightly
00:05:19
conditional, you know, where it's like
00:05:21
uh you know, she cares if you be you
00:05:24
know, if you perform well, like if you
00:05:25
do well, like if you're a good kid or
00:05:27
whatever, you know what I mean?
00:05:28
>> Where where did climbing come into your
00:05:30
life? Cuz I've got some I have found
00:05:31
some photos of you climbing and you look
00:05:33
your like with your sister, I believe.
00:05:34
Here we go. This one here.
00:05:36
>> Yeah. Classic. How old have you been?
00:05:38
>> I don't know. I mean, I don't know, like
00:05:40
six or something or eight. It's hard for
00:05:42
me to tell like medium-sized kids ages.
00:05:44
Why? Why climbing?
00:05:46
>> Oh, why not? It's so freaking cool. Have
00:05:48
you Have you rock climbed?
00:05:49
>> I've Yeah, I have.
00:05:50
>> You gone to a gym?
00:05:51
>> Yeah, I've I have. But
00:05:52
>> And wasn't it the freaking coolest
00:05:53
thing?
00:05:54
>> It was fun. Yeah, for sure. I mean,
00:05:56
saying I've climbed when I'm sat with
00:05:58
you is I feel like
00:05:58
>> Yeah. But you have tried it.
00:05:59
>> Yeah, I have. Yeah.
00:06:00
>> As an adult, if you can imagine as a kid
00:06:03
how fun that is. And then if you just
00:06:04
keep doing that non-stop and then you
00:06:06
find that you're, you know, have some
00:06:08
aptitude for it, you enjoy it. It's
00:06:09
like, you know, you can imagine going
00:06:11
down that path. It's so cool.
00:06:13
>> But is there something about the
00:06:14
challenge of climbing that you think
00:06:15
just kind of like was a jigsaw piece for
00:06:17
your for you your brain? Like problem
00:06:19
solving?
00:06:19
>> Well, I think there's something
00:06:20
elemental about climbing in the same way
00:06:21
as like running or swimming. It's like a
00:06:23
basic movement thing that I think is
00:06:24
quite enjoyable. And I think that I also
00:06:28
I I think I have an innate love of like
00:06:31
being on top of things like, you know,
00:06:32
being at the top. Basically, I love big
00:06:34
views. I like the expansive, you know, I
00:06:36
like air and so I like being up on
00:06:38
stuff. So, I don't know. I think it just
00:06:40
hit a few sweet spots like that where I
00:06:42
was like, "Oh, climbing is just so
00:06:43
cool." And
00:06:44
>> you I'm assuming you never thought this
00:06:45
could be a career.
00:06:46
>> No. No. And actually, even when I
00:06:47
started rock climbing sort of full-time,
00:06:49
I still didn't think it could be a
00:06:51
career because there just wasn't really
00:06:52
professional climbing at that time. It
00:06:53
was like much smaller. The industry is
00:06:55
way smaller. Climbing was way more
00:06:56
fringe and like less of a thing. But you
00:06:59
weren't motivated by like money or
00:07:00
anything cuz one does not pursue rock
00:07:02
climbing to become No. Rich.
00:07:04
>> Not to become rich. No. Well, so I said
00:07:06
though, so my father died like the
00:07:08
season before that. And because my
00:07:10
parents had just gotten divorced, he
00:07:11
basically left his retirement to my
00:07:13
sister and me and she used it to finish
00:07:15
college. I just put it into bonds and
00:07:17
was living off like 300 bucks a month or
00:07:18
whatever, which kind of like worked. You
00:07:20
know, I was like living in a car. I
00:07:21
stole my mom's minivan at the time. I
00:07:23
had like a couple hundred bucks a month
00:07:24
and it was kind of enough to just like
00:07:25
go to be a 19-year-old just like
00:07:28
camping, you know.
00:07:30
>> Was it this minivan?
00:07:32
>> No, that's my second one. That's the
00:07:33
Ford Econoline. That's the first actual
00:07:35
van that I bought. I lived in that van
00:07:36
for 10 years.
00:07:37
>> For 10 years?
00:07:38
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, I bought this van. I
00:07:40
mean, this is this is classic. But so, I
00:07:41
bought this van for 10 grand. And and
00:07:44
then originally, this is the last
00:07:46
buildout, which is the classiest
00:07:47
buildout. The original one my uncle and
00:07:49
I did for free with like scrap wood from
00:07:50
his, you know, in his wood shop.
00:07:52
basically. And uh and so then I lived in
00:07:55
that for 10 years and you're kind of
00:07:56
like, yeah, when you live in it, I
00:07:57
couldn't even stand in this van, you
00:07:58
know, I was like, "Oh, my back." But you
00:08:01
know, when you're living in your car for
00:08:02
10 years, you save quite a lot of money.
00:08:04
>> Between what ages did you live in your
00:08:06
car for 10 years?
00:08:08
>> I probably bought this van when I was
00:08:09
20. So 20 to 30 basically.
00:08:11
>> H does the
00:08:12
>> Yeah, actually I think that's right
00:08:13
because um because I think I met my wife
00:08:16
when I was 30 and that same year I
00:08:18
switched from this van to the bigger
00:08:19
van. And if you've seen the film Free
00:08:20
Solo, that's um I bought the the
00:08:22
ProMaster, this like Dodge. It was like
00:08:24
I could stand up in my van finally and I
00:08:26
was like, I'm moving up in the world. I
00:08:27
can stand
00:08:28
>> in there really well. Oh, there's there
00:08:30
is a little stove in this one, but
00:08:31
>> yeah. So, this though is the I did three
00:08:33
different buildouts of this van over the
00:08:34
10 years cuz like the original one was
00:08:36
super scrappy. The second build was like
00:08:38
a little nicer and then this was like a
00:08:40
pretty nice build that I had for I don't
00:08:41
know, five or six years or something.
00:08:43
When you live in your van for 10 years
00:08:44
and you have a mother who is very
00:08:47
performance focused, I've got um her
00:08:50
here. I believe you coming with her.
00:08:52
Classic.
00:08:53
>> Do you not face a lot of external
00:08:54
pressure to like go get a real job?
00:08:56
Honestly, less so than you would think.
00:08:58
Um
00:09:00
like to her credit, my mom was always
00:09:02
pretty supportive of the whole path. I
00:09:04
think, you know, I was kind of lucky
00:09:05
that that I did a lot of this when I was
00:09:06
like young enough that it's all part of
00:09:08
like you're gappier like, you know, it's
00:09:09
like you're young and you're finding
00:09:11
yourself and then and then I think there
00:09:12
was enough sort of external validation
00:09:14
that that my family could at least look
00:09:17
at and be like, well, you seem to be
00:09:18
good at this random thing even though we
00:09:19
don't get it and don't really know what
00:09:20
you're doing, but at least other people
00:09:21
think you're good at it. So, keep doing
00:09:23
your thing.
00:09:24
>> And at this point, was it was it rock
00:09:25
climbing? Was it free soloing? And
00:09:28
>> yeah, it's all a little bit of
00:09:28
everything, but basically just being a I
00:09:31
mean, you know, like being a
00:09:32
professional climber, quote unquote.
00:09:33
Some of it's free soloing, some it's
00:09:35
like speed climbing, some of it's just
00:09:36
hard climbing, some of it's going on
00:09:37
expeditions, doing new roots, like it's
00:09:39
a little bit of everything.
00:09:40
>> And for the average person that doesn't
00:09:41
know what free soloing is, what's the
00:09:43
like definition of it?
00:09:44
>> That's climbing without a robe. So
00:09:46
climbing without protection, which is
00:09:47
definitely what I'm most well known for
00:09:49
now, but in the context of professional
00:09:52
climbing, I've done tons of other things
00:09:54
in climbing. Like most of the time you
00:09:55
have a rope on, most of the time you're
00:09:57
doing other sorts of things. But it's
00:09:58
like the free souling is what you might
00:10:00
have been well known for because that
00:10:01
like breaks into the mainstream a lot
00:10:03
more.
00:10:03
>> I'm really intrigued generally by people
00:10:05
like you who like take I mean take the
00:10:08
path less traveled in their career and
00:10:10
then maybe nearer the the end of the
00:10:14
graph pick up traction. And I have this
00:10:17
piece of paper in this pen because I'd
00:10:19
love if you could from the age of let's
00:10:21
say 80 you're now 40 years old.
00:10:24
>> Yeah I turned 40 this year old. Could
00:10:26
you draw a graph showing how your career
00:10:30
looks in terms of success? You can
00:10:32
measure that by money or attention or
00:10:34
whatever. Let's see. So,
00:10:36
>> it was kind of like
00:10:38
>> nothing.
00:10:39
>> Slow a little bit and then like thisish.
00:10:41
>> Yeah.
00:10:42
>> And then kind of like and then basically
00:10:44
just like in like this where you
00:10:46
basically like kind of flat but growing
00:10:47
and then you have free solo where it
00:10:49
jumps a ton. It's like kind of crazy.
00:10:51
And then and then it keeps kind of
00:10:52
growing at a slightly faster rate than
00:10:54
before and then it basically jumps a ton
00:10:55
because of the building thing again.
00:10:57
>> I I find this fascinating because most
00:10:59
people in their lives wouldn't be
00:11:01
willing to endure this phase 18 to 29
00:11:04
where
00:11:05
>> it's not enduring. It's so great. Like I
00:11:07
would do that again. I loved it so much.
00:11:09
Like I mean I often think I'd be so
00:11:11
happy to just start over from zero
00:11:12
because like all the places that I go
00:11:14
climbing now I've been climbing there
00:11:15
for 20 years and I've like done most of
00:11:17
the things I can do and you know I've
00:11:18
sort of like tapped out a lot of stuff
00:11:19
in the western US and I'm like man I
00:11:22
would love to just hit the rezero button
00:11:23
and start over because you'd have so
00:11:24
much stuff to do and it's so amazing.
00:11:26
>> I guess that's the that's the different
00:11:28
the fault of my question is that I said
00:11:30
the word endure but you see it as
00:11:33
>> Yeah. You get to climb every single
00:11:34
thing you see. It's amazing.
00:11:36
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that's the thing
00:11:37
is like from age 18 to to 30, I
00:11:40
basically did try to climb every single
00:11:41
thing I could see because I was just
00:11:42
like, I'm learning. I'm growing. This is
00:11:44
amazing. I climb everything. And like
00:11:46
now I'm actually much more strategic
00:11:48
about it because doing tons of easy
00:11:50
climbing like doesn't really help me at
00:11:52
this point. I'm not going to make like
00:11:53
big technique gains. It basically just
00:11:55
makes me tired without without the right
00:11:56
kind of gains. It'd be like somebody
00:11:58
it'd be like an elite runner just
00:12:00
jogging for miles and miles every day.
00:12:02
And you're kind of like that's not going
00:12:03
to make you it's not going to improve
00:12:04
your marathon time if you're already
00:12:06
like an elite runner. It's it might be
00:12:08
fun, but it's just not going to like
00:12:10
move the needle for you. Through this
00:12:12
period of your life, 18 to 30, you're
00:12:13
optimizing for just having fun, doing
00:12:15
things you enjoy.
00:12:16
>> Well, I mean, no, I was always I was
00:12:18
always challenging myself. Like
00:12:19
basically, I was optimizing for like
00:12:21
what's the next thing I can do that
00:12:22
pushes me a little bit.
00:12:23
>> But you weren't optimizing for how to
00:12:25
get rich or
00:12:27
>> Well, then I would have gotten a job. If
00:12:28
I was optimizing for getting rich, I
00:12:30
would have freaking finished my college
00:12:31
degree and gotten a job.
00:12:32
>> I say this in part because I interview
00:12:33
so many people who pursued careers that
00:12:36
are often considered not real jobs, like
00:12:38
comedians or magicians.
00:12:41
>> And I tend to find the same thing
00:12:42
between the age of 18 and 30, they
00:12:44
optimize for something that isn't
00:12:46
necessarily being rich or famous. And
00:12:48
then at some point the graph looks like
00:12:49
this. Well, it's because I mean I think
00:12:51
I'm sure you know this, but I mean the
00:12:53
the world really it's like a winner take
00:12:56
all economy type deal. It's like
00:12:58
basically if you're the dude that does
00:12:59
the thing, all of a sudden your earnings
00:13:01
go insane.
00:13:02
>> But until you become the dude that does
00:13:04
the thing, you know, if you're like the
00:13:05
best magician or the best comedian or
00:13:07
the best whatever, then all of a sudden
00:13:09
you make an insane amount of money. But
00:13:10
when you're just like one of many
00:13:11
struggling comedians, you're, you know,
00:13:13
you're struggling. And so I think for me
00:13:14
as a climber, you're sort of like, oh,
00:13:16
I'm just a dude living in my van
00:13:17
climbing. But then a certain point, I'm
00:13:18
like the dude that, you know, I'm like,
00:13:20
oh, you're that guy that climbs without
00:13:21
the rope. And you're like, oh yeah,
00:13:23
cool. And then all of a sudden your
00:13:24
earnings are like
00:13:25
>> Was this um was this a difficult period
00:13:27
of your life this 18 to 30?
00:13:29
>> No, it was like the best. Well,
00:13:30
obviously it was like f, you know, I was
00:13:31
like trying to juggle rel like I wanted
00:13:34
to get a girlfriend. You're a young 20s
00:13:35
man living alone in a car like wanting
00:13:37
to be better at something than you are
00:13:39
and not not quite knowing the way, not
00:13:40
knowing what you're doing with your
00:13:41
life. So no, so obviously there was tons
00:13:43
of emotional turmoil throughout it, but
00:13:45
no, I mean retrospectively it's like
00:13:47
amazing. And your your dad passes away
00:13:50
which is in part I guess some of the
00:13:52
catalyst for
00:13:53
>> Yeah. Honestly my dad passing away
00:13:54
should be the beginning of that graph.
00:13:55
It should be this should basically start
00:13:56
at 19 cuz uh 18 I went to university and
00:14:00
so then uh starting at 19 I guess I uh
00:14:03
went on the road.
00:14:05
>> Your dad passing
00:14:07
what impact did that have on you outside
00:14:09
of it somewhat liberating you to to make
00:14:11
decisions that outside of his
00:14:13
expectations?
00:14:13
>> Well I mean obviously it was you know
00:14:14
it's sad. It's hard like and especially
00:14:16
now I'm sort of like oh it's too bad
00:14:17
that that I don't have a relationship
00:14:19
with my dad and he doesn't you know that
00:14:21
my kids don't have a grandfather and all
00:14:22
that kind of you know it's like yeah
00:14:23
it's it's tough. I think that the most
00:14:26
immediate impact that had maybe was just
00:14:28
reminding me of my own mortality, you
00:14:30
know, I mean, he he died unexpectedly at
00:14:31
55, just fell over in the airport and
00:14:33
just fell over dead. Um, like heart
00:14:35
attack. And so, you know, I mean, I
00:14:38
think that that reminder of my own
00:14:40
mortality has had a big impact on my
00:14:42
career, my life, you know, my climbing
00:14:44
world, whatever. one might not expect
00:14:47
you to go quote unquote do risky things
00:14:50
because of
00:14:51
>> well no because the thing is I think one
00:14:53
of the reasons that people don't do
00:14:54
risky things is because they have this
00:14:57
uh you know mistaken idea that they can
00:14:59
live forever basically and basically
00:15:02
because people don't want to think about
00:15:03
their own mortality and so they're like
00:15:04
oh I don't want to take any risks I
00:15:05
could die and you're like you know that
00:15:07
you're going to die either way and
00:15:08
either way when you die you're going to
00:15:10
be bummed that you didn't live longer
00:15:11
because you know it's like like the life
00:15:13
expect 78 and you're like Say you make
00:15:16
it to for men, whatever. Like, say you
00:15:18
make it that far, you're still going to
00:15:20
be like, man, I wish I had 22 more years
00:15:21
to like watch my grandkids graduate
00:15:23
college or whatever, you know, it's like
00:15:25
it's still going to feel like too
00:15:26
little.
00:15:27
>> And so, I'm kind of like, you're better
00:15:28
off dying at 55 in an accident, but
00:15:31
having done many things that you're
00:15:32
proud of and, you know, like led a life
00:15:34
that you're that you're proud of than
00:15:36
dying at 78 and still wishing you had
00:15:38
more, but having done none of the things
00:15:39
you wanted to do. It
00:15:41
>> is interesting. It does appear that
00:15:42
people live as if we think we're going
00:15:43
to live forever. Yeah, it's totally
00:15:45
insane. I mean, everyone's like, "Oh, I
00:15:46
don't take any risk." And you're like,
00:15:47
"Yeah, well, you can take no risk in
00:15:49
your life and you're still going to
00:15:49
freaking die." So, you might as well
00:15:51
take smart, calculated risks and do all
00:15:53
the things that you want to do and at
00:15:55
least die happy when you go.
00:15:57
>> What does this mean to you to like live
00:15:58
intentionally?
00:15:59
>> Well, that's exactly it. Like choosing
00:16:01
the the risk that you're willing to
00:16:02
take, making choices, like using your
00:16:04
time the way you want to use it.
00:16:05
>> I was looking at I think it was your
00:16:07
your personality a personality test you
00:16:09
did. You said you
00:16:10
>> like did I do a personality test? Um
00:16:12
like how much material do you have? I'm
00:16:14
like Jesus Christ. Like how many like
00:16:16
things do you have?
00:16:17
>> I have unlimited things.
00:16:18
>> I know. I'm so impressed
00:16:20
>> on this uh personality test. It says
00:16:21
you're you know higher on thrillseeking
00:16:23
and sensation seeking but then also
00:16:25
significantly higher than the average
00:16:26
male on urgency which I think kind of
00:16:28
overlays with what you were just saying
00:16:29
there of like making the decision to do
00:16:31
something.
00:16:32
>> Yeah. Basically because your time is
00:16:33
short and you're going to die so get on
00:16:35
with it.
00:16:35
>> It says here you're higher on
00:16:37
conscientiousness.
00:16:39
>> Very polite. You know,
00:16:40
>> thrill seeking, sensation seeking,
00:16:42
you're low on boredom.
00:16:44
>> I think low on boredom means that, you
00:16:46
know, you don't get bored.
00:16:47
>> Perseverance. You're very high on
00:16:48
perseverance.
00:16:49
>> Yeah, I think that's the same as low on
00:16:50
boredom.
00:16:51
>> And low on neuroticism.
00:16:53
>> That's for sure.
00:16:54
>> And so, what's your what is what's the
00:16:55
definition of the word neuroticism? Is
00:16:57
it like
00:16:57
>> Well, I think it's like the Well, I'm
00:16:59
sure there's a clinical definition, but
00:17:00
I think of it as sort of general anxiety
00:17:02
type stuff, like, you know, people
00:17:04
spinning in their heads about things
00:17:05
that don't matter. And has that always
00:17:07
been the case when you look back through
00:17:08
your life and the feedback you've had as
00:17:09
a kid and a teenager? Kind of. Yeah. I
00:17:11
think so. I think I've never been too
00:17:15
concerned about I I don't spin. I mean,
00:17:18
obviously, you know, occasionally I
00:17:19
stress about things, but but just not
00:17:21
the way I think a lot of people do.
00:17:24
>> I'm trying to figure out if that's a
00:17:25
learned behavior or maybe a little bit
00:17:26
learned and a little bit um from your
00:17:29
upbringing, genetics, whatever it might
00:17:30
be. Because can can one learn that? Can
00:17:32
one learn to be less neurotic and
00:17:33
>> Well, presumably I mean like meditation,
00:17:35
things like that. I think people can
00:17:36
sort of find a way to let go of certain
00:17:39
things.
00:17:39
>> Isn't this quite quite interesting when
00:17:41
people ask you questions inevitably
00:17:43
about fear and how you take on such you
00:17:46
know to muggles like me terrifying
00:17:47
challenges. There's an element of all of
00:17:49
this which is you do have a nature and
00:17:52
and a nurture which somewhat is
00:17:54
impossible for someone like me to
00:17:55
replicate
00:17:56
>> because your brain and my brain are
00:17:58
completely different. Your parents your
00:17:59
early contacts when your brain was being
00:18:01
wired and malated are completely
00:18:03
different to mine. So, you know, I
00:18:05
always find this is the like the trouble
00:18:07
of giving people advice is
00:18:10
um we're dealing with different
00:18:12
different natures,
00:18:13
>> different natures.
00:18:14
>> But I I do feel like in my case, the
00:18:16
biggest difference in nature is the fact
00:18:19
that I've just always loved climbing,
00:18:20
you know, because I basically I think
00:18:21
that nurture is is the majority of this.
00:18:23
Like if you spend 30 years training a
00:18:24
thing, you're going to get better at the
00:18:25
thing.
00:18:26
>> And so I think that the biggest
00:18:28
difference between me and and somebody
00:18:30
who's not into rock climb is I freaking
00:18:31
love rock climbing. I could go I could
00:18:32
do it 10 days a week if if I could, you
00:18:34
know what I mean? But sadly, I get too
00:18:36
tired and my body breaks down. And so,
00:18:38
you know, I could I basically have like
00:18:39
a limitless capacity to to do the thing.
00:18:41
I just love doing the thing. And I think
00:18:44
that that is probably the biggest
00:18:46
difference in nature, you know, because
00:18:48
everything else you can kind of
00:18:49
overcome, you know, like if you loved
00:18:51
rock climbing as much as I love rock
00:18:52
climbing, no matter what your your
00:18:54
genetic disposition towards like
00:18:55
neuroticism and all that stuff, you
00:18:56
would just kind of work through all that
00:18:57
stuff and you'd find your own path to to
00:19:00
getting good at climbing basically.
00:19:02
>> If your kids came to you, you have two
00:19:03
girls, right?
00:19:04
>> Yeah.
00:19:04
>> If they came to you and said, "Dad, like
00:19:05
give me advice on what I should aim at
00:19:06
in life."
00:19:07
>> Would you tell I wouldn't I wouldn't
00:19:09
give them advice. I'd be like, "You do
00:19:11
you find the thing you love to do, go
00:19:12
hard, you know, basically like learn
00:19:14
some skills, get good at something, like
00:19:16
what do you like to do?" I mean, that's
00:19:17
kind of the thing for me, especially
00:19:18
with climbing is like if someone had
00:19:20
told me like, "You're going to train
00:19:21
climbing for the rest of your life." I'd
00:19:23
be like, "Oh, that sounds like kind of a
00:19:24
grind, you know, cuz I mean, it is it is
00:19:26
hard work. You're like hiking uphill
00:19:28
with a heavy backpack and it's cold and
00:19:29
it's windy. It's like it's basically
00:19:30
physically uncomfortable." I mean, being
00:19:32
a professional rock climber means that
00:19:33
you're physically uncomfortable
00:19:35
all the time, but like like often, you
00:19:37
know, like it's you know, it's hard.
00:19:39
>> Yeah. But if you're doing it because you
00:19:40
freaking love doing it, it doesn't feel
00:19:42
very hard. And so, I mean, I think the
00:19:44
key for a kid is find the thing that
00:19:46
doesn't feel like hard work.
00:19:47
>> And when you started, were you scared of
00:19:50
of big tall rock faces and stuff like
00:19:52
that?
00:19:53
>> I mean, yeah, I had like a healthy
00:19:55
intimidation of I mean, like my first
00:19:56
season, the first time seeing Elcap as a
00:19:59
climber, uh, I was 19 and it looks
00:20:01
impossible. It looks completely insane.
00:20:02
I was like, that's so big. But then, you
00:20:05
know, within a couple seasons, uh, you
00:20:07
know, I climbed some bigger walls,
00:20:08
learned how to climb, and then a friend
00:20:10
and I had the sort of season goal, like
00:20:12
we were going to climb all season with
00:20:13
the aspiration at the end to climb Elcap
00:20:15
in a day. So, basically, there was this
00:20:16
long progression on LCAP specifically
00:20:18
where it's like you go from just trying
00:20:19
to get up it to trying to get up it
00:20:21
faster to trying to get up it with just
00:20:22
your hands and feet, still using
00:20:23
protection. But basically, there's like
00:20:25
all these steps you can take. And so,
00:20:28
over a bunch of seasons, you know, I
00:20:29
climbed a cap like 60 times, different
00:20:31
routes, all these different things. And
00:20:32
then eventually you're sort of like,
00:20:33
"Oh, maybe I can start thinking about
00:20:35
freoling it." Which is where the film
00:20:36
Free Solo comes in. And then eventually
00:20:38
you do this thing. But then people like,
00:20:40
"Well, aren't you scared?" And you're
00:20:41
kind of like, "Wow, I've spent 10 years
00:20:42
like building up on this thing."
00:20:45
>> I guess that's what people don't see.
00:20:47
>> Yeah.
00:20:48
So they just
00:20:49
>> I mean like the documentary Free Soul I
00:20:50
think does a pretty good job of showing
00:20:51
the the direct preparation like the
00:20:53
training involved in doing that specific
00:20:55
climb, but it just doesn't show the
00:20:58
uh like eight years before that I guess
00:21:00
cuz the documentary was filmed over two
00:21:01
years and I guess I've been going since
00:21:03
2006. So it's nine years before that
00:21:05
that I've been going to use and I've
00:21:07
been spending maybe three months a year
00:21:08
climbing walls.
00:21:11
I guess that's the illusion of like all
00:21:12
people that do great things and then
00:21:13
become like athletes or sprinters or
00:21:15
whatever Ronaldo or Messi is you you
00:21:17
don't get to see the
00:21:19
>> Yeah. the whole life that they put into
00:21:20
doing the thing.
00:21:21
>> Yeah.
00:21:22
>> Yeah.
00:21:22
>> So it looks it looks like a magic trick
00:21:24
when we see the outcome. Like we show
00:21:25
show up on Netflix to watch you climb
00:21:27
Taipei like whoa
00:21:28
>> hanging with it from his leg.
00:21:29
>> Yeah. I mean people watch some of those
00:21:31
programs and they're like he just walked
00:21:32
up and did it. And you're like well yeah
00:21:34
after 30 years of practice like I just
00:21:36
walked up and did it. But no it's not
00:21:37
like just walking up and doing it. Hm.
00:21:42
>> I mean, like, yeah, I've literally been
00:21:44
climbing 5 days a week for 30 years.
00:21:45
Like, that's so much climbing. Like, I
00:21:48
freaking love climbing and I climb a
00:21:49
lot.
00:21:51
>> On this on this idea of like exposure
00:21:53
therapy as it relates to like fear and
00:21:54
anxiety and confronting one's uh things
00:21:56
that terrify them. Was there in the
00:21:58
early days were you I'm trying to
00:21:59
understand. Were you like scared at some
00:22:01
point?
00:22:01
>> Oh, all the time. That's actually
00:22:02
something that I think uh you know I've
00:22:05
obviously done so many interviews around
00:22:06
fear and like managing fear and all that
00:22:09
and I've talked about fear a lot of
00:22:10
different ways over over the years and I
00:22:12
think as I've gotten older I've sort of
00:22:14
come to realize that that actually
00:22:15
you're just scared all the time as a
00:22:17
climber like low-level fear low like but
00:22:19
you're but climbing is fundamentally
00:22:21
scary like it's always kind of scary
00:22:22
because there always consequences like
00:22:24
even if you're climbing with a rope
00:22:25
you're still always visualizing like
00:22:26
what happens if the rope breaks like
00:22:28
what if you know like is this safe like
00:22:30
you know is the gear good like is is
00:22:32
actually safe. And so you're always a
00:22:34
little bit scared. And so after years
00:22:37
and years of always being scared, you
00:22:38
get pretty good at managing that kind of
00:22:40
stuff
00:22:40
>> because there's a lot of sort of
00:22:41
misconceptions swirling around this
00:22:43
brain scan you.
00:22:43
>> Yeah. I know. I hate all that stuff.
00:22:44
That's just all from the film Free Solo.
00:22:46
>> It was like too short of a scene in the
00:22:48
film. They needed a little more. They
00:22:50
need to let it breathe, you know,
00:22:51
explain things a little better, I think.
00:22:52
>> So they scanned a control subject.
00:22:54
another person scanned you, looked at
00:22:56
the amydala in your brain, and that the
00:22:58
conclusion that a lot of people have
00:22:59
arrived at is that you don't experience
00:23:01
fear because when they look at these two
00:23:03
brain scans, your amydala is lighting up
00:23:05
less when you're shown scary images
00:23:07
basically, right? But like shown just
00:23:09
this image, like what does that even
00:23:10
mean? Like my brain's purple and his
00:23:12
brain is orange. You're like, like what
00:23:13
does that mean? Like I don't know. But
00:23:14
no, I mean the the thing is though, and
00:23:17
this is what I wish was explained in the
00:23:19
film better, is that this is we're being
00:23:22
shown black and white photos inside an
00:23:23
fMRI. So, you're inside a sealed metal
00:23:25
tube. You're totally safe. You're
00:23:26
physically safe and comfortable. And
00:23:28
you're being shown black and white
00:23:29
photos. And so, to me, obviously, that's
00:23:31
not going to light up the fear response
00:23:32
in my brain because you're looking at
00:23:33
pictures. You're like, who cares? I'm
00:23:34
totally safe. But in a control subject,
00:23:37
uh, you know, apparently your brain sort
00:23:39
of responds to images one way or
00:23:40
another. But I'm kind of like, I've been
00:23:42
climbing for 20 years, so I've been like
00:23:43
scared quite a lot. And you're kind of
00:23:45
like, well, black and white photos start
00:23:46
to lose lose their edge if you've been
00:23:48
scared all the time for 20 years. So,
00:23:50
it's like obviously that's not going to
00:23:51
trigger much.
00:23:52
>> Yeah. Yeah. And I imagine everybody in
00:23:53
their life can think of a scenario where
00:23:54
they have mastery that would sc like a
00:23:56
stand-up comedian looking out at a stage
00:23:59
probably wouldn't be as scared as me.
00:24:01
>> Yeah.
00:24:02
>> Because that would that would terrify
00:24:04
me. Um so again, this is not necessarily
00:24:06
some sort of neurological
00:24:08
>> No, I mean I think the real takeaway is
00:24:09
that I have an amydala and it works.
00:24:12
>> Mhm.
00:24:12
>> You know what I mean? like cuz I think
00:24:14
if if the results had shown that I was
00:24:16
missing my amydala then I would have all
00:24:17
kinds of I would have died already at
00:24:19
youth cuz I wouldn't be able to function
00:24:21
as a as a human basically but you know
00:24:23
had it shown something like that where
00:24:24
there are like structural differences or
00:24:25
like some real change but this is
00:24:27
basically just showing that after 20
00:24:29
years of conditioning I respond
00:24:30
differently than an average person and
00:24:32
you're like yeah no kidding like if you
00:24:33
put a monk into an fMRI their brain
00:24:35
responds totally differently than
00:24:36
average person as well
00:24:37
>> which I actually think is a really
00:24:38
inspiring conclusion because it means
00:24:40
that we can all
00:24:42
>> grasp our fears better. And even, you
00:24:44
know, people won't know this about me,
00:24:46
but 10 years ago, I sat down on camera
00:24:48
with my friend Ash in his apartment to
00:24:50
record a two-minute video. And as I sat
00:24:52
there, I couldn't I was so scared I
00:24:54
couldn't get the words out. So, you
00:24:55
actually in this 2-minute video that
00:24:56
comes out, you see it go from night and
00:24:57
day in the background just because we
00:24:58
did that many cuts over 7 hours to try
00:25:00
and get me to say 2 minutes on camera.
00:25:01
And obviously, after 10 years of being
00:25:03
on camera, I can now speak without
00:25:04
[ __ ] myself. And I imagine my brain
00:25:07
state looks significantly different
00:25:08
because of our exposure therapy.
00:25:09
>> Totally. Yeah. Hey, you should do the
00:25:11
fMRI. You should Yeah. You should have
00:25:13
done 10 years ago cuz then you'd have
00:25:15
your control and then you do it now and
00:25:16
it'd be totally different.
00:25:18
>> But also, the psychologists I've sat
00:25:19
with all confirm this. They talk about
00:25:20
exposure therapy.
00:25:21
>> Yeah. And and I went through exactly the
00:25:23
same thing with public speaking. Like I
00:25:25
was always so afraid of public speaking.
00:25:26
I was also very shy and like just not
00:25:29
like it was terrifying. And now because
00:25:32
of the free solo film tour and you know
00:25:34
all the public things I've done since
00:25:36
then, I'm like basically fine. And you
00:25:38
know, it's like you still got a little
00:25:39
nervous, but it's like basically easy
00:25:41
now. You're kind of like, well, that's a
00:25:42
total change. It's like obviously
00:25:44
there's a tremendous capacity for humans
00:25:46
to learn.
00:25:47
>> People talk to you about fear all the
00:25:49
time because I mean your work cuz
00:25:52
climate is really freaking scary. It
00:25:53
makes sense. It's totally
00:25:54
understandable. Yeah.
00:25:55
>> Yeah. And they also realize, I think, at
00:25:58
some deep level that the thing holding
00:25:59
them back from who they think they want
00:26:00
to be or who they aspire to be is fear.
00:26:02
Often it's judgment of someone else.
00:26:04
It's taking a risk.
00:26:05
>> Totally. So, you've become for many
00:26:07
people the like, tell me, tell me how to
00:26:10
overcome.
00:26:11
>> Yeah. Well, I think that everyone's
00:26:13
like, "What's your hack to overcome
00:26:14
fear?" And you're like, "There's no
00:26:15
hack. You just get really freaking
00:26:17
scared over and over for so long and
00:26:19
eventually it's not that scary anymore."
00:26:21
But I will say that that's like a very
00:26:23
enduring way to overcome your fear is
00:26:25
like if you're willing to go through
00:26:26
that process, then you are actually
00:26:28
unafraid, you know, because like you can
00:26:30
do like hacks. I mean, you can you can
00:26:31
like crank up loud rock music and just
00:26:33
go for it, you know? Like, and there are
00:26:35
plenty of examples of that in in what
00:26:36
I'd call gravity assisted sports. Like,
00:26:38
say if you're going to jump a cliff on
00:26:39
skis, like you can get to the edge, be
00:26:41
like, "This is really scary." And then
00:26:42
be like 3 2 1 do it and just like go. In
00:26:45
climbing, you can't really do that as
00:26:47
much because it's so slow. Like when you
00:26:49
climb, you make one move and then you
00:26:50
make another move and then you're like,
00:26:52
"Do I still want to be here?" Like it
00:26:53
basically fear creeps in a lot more. But
00:26:55
sort of in gravity assisted sports, you
00:26:57
can have more of that moment where you
00:26:58
just like overcome your fear and then it
00:26:59
happens, you know, like making a big
00:27:01
drop in a kayak or like skis or things
00:27:03
like that where it's like once you
00:27:04
commit, it's happening one way or
00:27:05
another.
00:27:06
>> Anyway, there's a lot to get into with
00:27:07
like
00:27:08
>> No, but I mean I want to get into it. I
00:27:10
watched a video of you climbing Half
00:27:12
Dome, I think it was, and it looks like
00:27:14
you got scared halfway up or
00:27:16
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, so that video is
00:27:18
actually filmed later. So the voice over
00:27:20
in that video is me talking about the
00:27:21
experience of me freestyling when I was
00:27:23
totally alone. And I did get really
00:27:24
scared on halfdome and I had this whole
00:27:26
somewhat traumatic climate experience
00:27:27
near the top of the wall. But then when
00:27:29
we went back to film it, I had a
00:27:30
different traumatic experience while we
00:27:32
were filming. Less traumatic but uh but
00:27:34
like very scary for a moment and they
00:27:36
got that on camera. So they basically in
00:27:37
the film they just cut the two together
00:27:38
as like a because it shows me like being
00:27:40
really scared.
00:27:41
>> What's Half Dome to start with and then
00:27:43
what was the traumatic experience?
00:27:44
>> Yeah. So Halfdme for anyone who hasn't
00:27:46
seen is uh is this just totally amazing
00:27:48
wall in Euseite. It's a 2,000 foot
00:27:50
granite face. Actually it's the North
00:27:52
Face logo. It's a It's freaking It's
00:27:54
That's That's half dome.
00:27:55
>> Okay.
00:27:55
>> Yeah. So, it's like an iconic wall in
00:27:56
Euseity.
00:27:57
>> Um it looks like half of a dome, but
00:27:59
actually it's more like a hockey puck
00:28:01
just shoved in. It's actually a full
00:28:02
dome depending how you look at it. But
00:28:04
the Northwest Faces vertical for 2,000
00:28:06
ft is incredible. And so I freelled.
00:28:08
That was one of the first like major
00:28:09
free soulas I did in 2008. Um and one of
00:28:12
the things that sort of made me a
00:28:13
professional climber in a way. But when
00:28:15
I did the climb, I did the bare minimum
00:28:18
preparation. I basically like didn't
00:28:20
know. It was it was the biggest thing
00:28:22
I'd ever freed. I didn't quite know how
00:28:23
to like go about getting ready for it.
00:28:24
Anyway, I I climbed it and basically
00:28:26
hadn't practiced enough. Was really
00:28:27
freaking scared. Got off route, got
00:28:29
confused, skipped some stuff, and then
00:28:31
at the very top had this whole moment of
00:28:34
extreme panic, you know? Basically, I
00:28:36
got up into some stuff and all sort of
00:28:38
like crumbled mentally and like sort of
00:28:39
barely managed to finish this upper
00:28:42
slab. Like the hardest part of the climb
00:28:43
was like right near the top. I was
00:28:44
trying to walk across this ledge.
00:28:46
Basically, I've walked across that ledge
00:28:47
face in and face out. you normally
00:28:49
people hand traverse it or they crawl
00:28:50
across it. There are like different ways
00:28:52
to go across the ledge and I've done it
00:28:53
every which way and then we were up
00:28:54
there filming and I was like I'm going
00:28:56
to walk it face out but it turns out
00:28:58
when you walk it face out it's really
00:28:59
freaking scary. And so I made it kind of
00:29:01
halfway and was like oh my gosh and then
00:29:03
bailed.
00:29:04
>> And when you say you having like a like
00:29:07
a crisis in your your mind, what does
00:29:09
what is that? Is that just oh my god
00:29:11
what am I like how does that sound when
00:29:12
you
00:29:13
>> Well, I mean so in this case so walking
00:29:14
across this ledge it's like it starts
00:29:17
maybe as a foot wide. So your foot is
00:29:18
fully on the ledge and you're shuffling
00:29:20
across it. But then at a certain point,
00:29:22
yeah, I mean that's that's
00:29:23
>> the video I'll put on the screen for
00:29:24
anyone watching.
00:29:25
>> Yeah, that's that's the ledge. But
00:29:27
basically at the narrowest part, your
00:29:28
feet are sticking out over the lip of it
00:29:30
and the wall bulges ever so slightly. So
00:29:32
it for forces your back out a little and
00:29:34
so you're basically like rocking on your
00:29:36
heels with I don't know like a 1700T
00:29:38
drop or something, 18800t drop like
00:29:40
straight down below you and so you know
00:29:43
it's like pretty it's pretty intense.
00:29:45
Anyway, and so I thought I was going to
00:29:48
walk across it like that and I made it
00:29:49
to the bulging part and was suddenly
00:29:50
like, "Oh my god, this isn't like this
00:29:52
isn't for me." And then managed to like
00:29:54
shuffle back and and change my strategy.
00:29:57
>> Is it like panic in your head?
00:29:59
>> It's not panic, but you're like, "Oh,
00:30:01
oh, I made the wrong choice. Like, this
00:30:03
is bad. This is bad." You know? I mean,
00:30:05
it's not like full like five alarm bell
00:30:08
like panic panic, but yeah, you're like,
00:30:10
"Oh, I'm so screwed."
00:30:12
>> And you have fallen a long long way
00:30:14
before. I I was hearing about a time
00:30:15
when you were younger you fell off a a
00:30:17
mountain and called your mother, managed
00:30:18
to call your mother in
00:30:19
>> Yeah, though that was like sliding down
00:30:20
an icy cooler type thing. It's a little
00:30:22
different than like free falling off of
00:30:23
a cliff. That's like sliding down a
00:30:24
mountain. But yeah, I got totally messed
00:30:26
up and and uh Yeah. Yeah. And I've like
00:30:29
broken my arm several times as a kid
00:30:31
falling off things and and then with a
00:30:33
rope as a climber, you take big falls
00:30:35
like routinely, you know, when you have
00:30:36
protection. That's like part of the
00:30:37
sport basically.
00:30:40
M I mean it's certainly easy to
00:30:42
visualize falling 700. You know when
00:30:43
you're like standing on a little ledge
00:30:44
and you're just bulging and you're
00:30:45
looking down you're, you know, it's easy
00:30:47
to be like, "Oh my god." You know, it's
00:30:49
like if you just bend forward a little
00:30:50
bit, you're just going to take a swan
00:30:51
dive like 700 feet to the ground.
00:30:53
>> The stats in this sport are I mean of of
00:30:56
fatalities. How do they compare to other
00:30:59
sports?
00:30:59
>> Uh safer than you would think. That's
00:31:01
the thing is everyone thinks it seems
00:31:02
crazy, but uh it's not that crazy. I
00:31:05
don't know actual statistics, but I
00:31:08
suspect that it's actually pretty
00:31:09
comparable to to skiing or something,
00:31:11
you know, because like recreational
00:31:13
skiers die all the time, like falling
00:31:14
into tree wells or like going off cliffs
00:31:16
by accident or things like that.
00:31:18
Climbing is actually surprisingly safe,
00:31:21
which is one of the things I love about
00:31:22
climbing. I mean, climbing is very it's
00:31:25
very uh sort of binary where it's like
00:31:27
either you're totally safe or you're
00:31:29
going to die. And the odds of you dying
00:31:32
are very very very small. But because
00:31:35
they're they're there, they always keep
00:31:37
you on. You know what I mean? Like it
00:31:39
basically keeps you alert,
00:31:41
but you're never really gonna get hurt.
00:31:43
>> Is that including free soloing?
00:31:46
>> Yeah. I mean, for the most part, I mean,
00:31:48
a couple people have died free soling. I
00:31:50
mean, people occasionally die free
00:31:51
soloing for sure, but actually most of
00:31:53
the the sort of cutting edge free
00:31:56
soloists have not died soling. They've
00:31:58
like died in other things. I think it
00:31:59
was in in the um the documentary on
00:32:01
Netflix um Free Solo where one of your
00:32:03
colleagues
00:32:04
>> Yeah. Tommy Tommy is like most free
00:32:06
solos are dead now. Um which is kind of
00:32:09
true but it's slightly mis misstated. I
00:32:12
mean you know he's just like speaking
00:32:13
off the cuff and it's not like strictly
00:32:14
true. Like a couple of the best free
00:32:16
solos have died free soling though they
00:32:18
died on very easy terrain. But then the
00:32:20
majority of other great free solas have
00:32:21
died in sort of climbing adjacent
00:32:24
accidents like wings suit base jumping
00:32:26
and uh like one got swept to sea by a
00:32:28
rogue wave like while he was out
00:32:30
climbing a sea cliff but he was like
00:32:31
standing on shore and got swept out to
00:32:32
sea. You know things like that where
00:32:34
you're just kind of like you know
00:32:35
obviously they're taking risks in their
00:32:37
lives and they wind up dead but it's not
00:32:39
the way that people think. You know, you
00:32:41
see a photo like that and you're like,
00:32:42
"Free soul, you're going to die for
00:32:43
sure." And you're kind of like, "Well,
00:32:45
people don't actually really die that
00:32:46
way." I mean, they have. I mean, not to
00:32:48
say that it doesn't happen, but way less
00:32:51
frequently than people would suspect.
00:32:52
>> If I was to try and like, you know,
00:32:54
professionally torture you, and again,
00:32:55
I'm not talking in extremes here, but
00:32:57
what life would I prescribe you to live?
00:33:01
>> Oh, being like a finance bro or
00:33:02
something. Having to like just work
00:33:04
spreadsheets my whole life. Is that what
00:33:05
you mean? Like what what is my like
00:33:06
worst
00:33:08
>> I don't know, something like that. or
00:33:10
honestly being like a choreographer for
00:33:12
dance or something like I just I
00:33:14
couldn't do like or or being like an
00:33:16
opera singer like I would just kill
00:33:17
myself. I just couldn't do that.
00:33:19
>> Why Why would being a finance bro be
00:33:20
like the worst thing for Alex?
00:33:23
>> Just the idea of sitting at a computer
00:33:24
in a cubicle just like typing. I mean
00:33:27
I'm kind of contrarian. I don't like
00:33:28
rules. I don't want to like jump through
00:33:30
hoops. I don't want to do arbitrary
00:33:31
things. Like I don't want some manager
00:33:33
to come and tell me like, "Oh, you got
00:33:34
to file that report again. You like
00:33:35
missed a line." I'd be like, "You go f,"
00:33:38
you I just like walk out of the building
00:33:39
like it's just I just like don't know if
00:33:41
I could take that be like no. But that's
00:33:43
like how most of the world live. We kind
00:33:45
of we all live in like you know
00:33:46
>> I just don't know if it's for me.
00:33:49
I don't know. I mean doesn't that just
00:33:51
seem I mean I had this moment I've been
00:33:52
in New York a couple days and I I took
00:33:54
the subway down to see some see some
00:33:55
friends and I was like coming out of the
00:33:57
tunnel and it's like packed with people
00:33:58
and I was just like looking at the
00:34:00
ground and I was like just you know
00:34:01
following someone else's footsteps up
00:34:03
this like beat down path of stairs and I
00:34:05
was like I couldn't live like this. like
00:34:07
not day in and day out every day like
00:34:09
this is just like feeling like you're
00:34:10
just doing the exact same thing as
00:34:12
everyone else around you. I'm like oh it
00:34:13
seems so so boring.
00:34:16
It's funny cuz so so many of us look at
00:34:18
your life and go wow that's not very
00:34:20
normal but actually maybe at a
00:34:22
foundational level you're living a much
00:34:24
more normal life than I mean you're out
00:34:26
in nature you're moving your body.
00:34:29
>> Yeah. Yeah. In that in that way for sure
00:34:32
I'm like going on cool adventures and
00:34:34
going out and I don't know. I think
00:34:36
that's also part of why the the sort of
00:34:37
attraction and allur with your life
00:34:39
especially when you watch free solo is
00:34:41
you do seem to be a free man
00:34:44
in a way where most of us aren't free as
00:34:47
such.
00:34:47
>> Yeah. I mean well I think we're all sort
00:34:48
of aspiring to that to some extent. I
00:34:50
mean most people see that though as like
00:34:51
they get their vacation for the year.
00:34:52
They they're planning to retire at some
00:34:54
point and then they're going to have
00:34:55
their freedom and you're kind of like I
00:34:57
don't know. I mean maybe you got to try
00:34:58
to live that way as much as possible.
00:35:00
>> If if your if your young girls came up
00:35:01
to you June and Alice and said, "Dad,
00:35:03
what's what is a meaningful life? like
00:35:05
what are the principles of living a
00:35:06
fulfilling meaningful life? Would you
00:35:08
give them advice there?
00:35:09
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it'd be a long
00:35:12
rambling multi-day conversation with
00:35:14
them about But I mean, following your
00:35:16
own goals is is I think, you know,
00:35:18
certainly one of the the cores of having
00:35:20
a meaningful life, like having things
00:35:23
that you find valuable. I mean, really
00:35:25
like living in line with your values,
00:35:26
finding things that are important to you
00:35:27
and pursuing them with as much as you
00:35:29
can give them. you when you look at your
00:35:31
early so 20s to 30s it kind of looks
00:35:33
like you're living like a Buddhist a
00:35:34
little bit.
00:35:35
>> I mean yeah I went on a a trip once
00:35:38
where they called me the monk
00:35:40
just because I was living such a sort of
00:35:41
a seated lifestyle. I was like reading
00:35:44
I've never I don't drink and I don't
00:35:45
like party and I didn't just for
00:35:47
personal preference whatever. So I'm
00:35:50
just like living in my little van and
00:35:52
reading books and climbing all the time
00:35:54
like those are the things that I'm into
00:35:56
doing you know. It's like it's yeah it's
00:35:58
just doing what you want to do.
00:36:00
Have you ever been depressed or?
00:36:03
>> Yeah, probably not like deep clinical
00:36:05
depression, but there's certainly
00:36:07
periods from time to time where you're
00:36:08
just like, what am I doing or why or
00:36:10
what are my goals? Like, you know,
00:36:11
what's And I think to me the most
00:36:14
depressing thing is that, you know, I've
00:36:15
put like my whole life into climbing,
00:36:17
like trying to be the best you can be
00:36:18
all the time. And sometimes you put tons
00:36:20
of effort in and you just don't see
00:36:21
results. Like for whatever reason, you
00:36:22
just suck. You're like, I'm trying so
00:36:23
hard and I'm just like not as good as I
00:36:26
want to be. And like that's challenging,
00:36:27
you know? But that's
00:36:29
I mean everybody faces that to some
00:36:31
extent where you're like I'm working
00:36:32
hard at a thing but I'm just not
00:36:33
achieving the results that I want.
00:36:36
>> And between the between that the sort of
00:36:38
that period of no man's 20 and 30 where
00:36:40
your career hasn't taken off yet the
00:36:42
documentary is not out. You've not
00:36:44
climbed Taipei. How much money are you
00:36:46
earning from climbing?
00:36:49
>> I mean the first my first couple years
00:36:51
my sponsorship through the Northace was
00:36:52
like uh I think my first year was like
00:36:54
10k a year. I was like this is amazing.
00:36:56
cuz I was living in my car and uh you
00:36:59
know making 10 grand when you live by
00:37:00
yourself in a van is like more than you
00:37:02
need basically. Um it obviously went up
00:37:05
but beyond that at some point but it was
00:37:07
you know like in the 10 to 100 range for
00:37:10
the first for the whole yeah for years.
00:37:14
>> Then at some point it increases.
00:37:15
>> Yeah. And then it increases. I mean then
00:37:17
free solo is obviously like a big thing
00:37:18
and that sort of opened up all these
00:37:20
opportunities. Uh because then I started
00:37:22
doing corporate speaking and stuff like
00:37:23
that. And I mean, as I'm sure you know,
00:37:25
that's just like a whole different
00:37:26
world. And so then you go from just like
00:37:28
making some money from sponsors to like
00:37:31
making money from from other
00:37:32
corporations stuff. And then you're
00:37:33
like, okay, now you're making some
00:37:35
money.
00:37:35
>> One of the things when I was I was
00:37:36
hearing you talk about some of your
00:37:38
incredible climbing stories is um I was
00:37:40
trying to understand what role
00:37:42
visualization or or your preparation
00:37:45
plays and how that's like transferable
00:37:47
to to me and my life. We talked a little
00:37:49
bit about just how much preparation you
00:37:50
did for something like LCAP,
00:37:52
>> but you you it sounds like you really
00:37:54
break down the challenge into smaller
00:37:56
bits and then really go through those
00:37:58
individual steps, whereas a lot of
00:38:00
people would just look at LCAP and go,
00:38:01
"Oh my god, they'll be terrified."
00:38:03
>> And then say impossible.
00:38:04
>> Yeah. Which is fair. I mean, I spent
00:38:06
years looking at LCAP and being like,
00:38:07
"That's too big. That's impossible." And
00:38:09
then, you know, after years of that, I
00:38:11
kept hoping that I would look at it and
00:38:12
it would like look easy somehow and I'd
00:38:14
be like, "Cool, now I'm going to do it."
00:38:15
And it just never looked easy. And so
00:38:18
then finally I was like, "Okay, I'm
00:38:19
gonna have to like put some real work
00:38:20
into it." And then I started slowly
00:38:22
breaking it down and and and then once
00:38:24
you like break it into pieces and start
00:38:25
working on the pieces, then you're kind
00:38:26
of like, "Okay, it starts to feel more
00:38:28
reasonable."
00:38:29
>> Break it into pieces and start working
00:38:30
on the pieces. What does that mean in
00:38:32
terms of climbing? So if we I mean I've
00:38:34
got this this uh model here of
00:38:37
>> type. So you know, and this is also a
00:38:40
metaphor for any challenge I have in my
00:38:42
life.
00:38:42
>> But this is actually perfect because
00:38:42
it's right here.
00:38:43
>> Yeah.
00:38:43
>> So I scouted this in September of this
00:38:45
year. I did the climb in January. or
00:38:47
whatever. In September, we went and um
00:38:49
well, we had to like one make sure it
00:38:50
was possible before you sort of like
00:38:52
commit to it doing a whole TV program.
00:38:54
We were kind of like, let's make sure we
00:38:55
can do this. And then they also had to
00:38:56
get all this sort of marketing material.
00:38:58
You like get the photos with the
00:38:59
building, like all the stuff that
00:39:00
becomes the trailer and whatever. And so
00:39:02
we went in September to sort of like do
00:39:03
the prep. And so we I basically checked
00:39:07
out all the different pieces. And so
00:39:09
anywhere where you see it looking a
00:39:10
little bit different, you know, it's
00:39:12
like this whole bottom part is like a
00:39:13
low angle slab. It's like punctuated
00:39:15
with these two little rubies, these
00:39:16
little like coin things or whatever the
00:39:18
clouds or whatever they are. And then
00:39:19
there the dragons on the corners. These
00:39:21
are all overhanging. Like each of these
00:39:22
eight blocks is like a big overhanging
00:39:24
thing. It feels a little bit different.
00:39:25
Then you get up here, there's like these
00:39:27
balconies. These are actually
00:39:28
overhanging. Like basically each little
00:39:30
segment of this is quite different. And
00:39:32
you know, obviously on this model like
00:39:33
looks looks the same, but um each
00:39:36
transition between the different pieces
00:39:37
is like a thing. So I checked out all of
00:39:38
them with ropes and and yeah, you just
00:39:41
go piece by piece all the way up the
00:39:42
whole thing. And you hadn't ever climbed
00:39:43
it before we saw it on Netflix live.
00:39:45
>> Well, I hadn't freed it. No, but I had
00:39:47
climbed it. I climbed all the pieces
00:39:49
with a rope for sure. I'd like checked
00:39:50
out the different things.
00:39:52
>> Okay. So, so you you look at these as
00:39:54
individual challenges every step.
00:39:56
>> Yeah. It's like you go Well, even like
00:39:58
just getting off the ground, the first
00:39:59
move is a slightly different move than
00:40:01
any of the other moves. You have to like
00:40:03
jump up to a thing and like press it
00:40:04
out. Um then climbing over these little
00:40:06
clouds is a different thing. Each dragon
00:40:07
is a different thing. Yeah. Yeah, I mean
00:40:09
it's just, you know, there's a
00:40:11
surprising amount of complexity to it.
00:40:12
And so our first on the scout, you know,
00:40:14
I had a note on my phone and I'm just
00:40:16
like writing down all the different
00:40:17
basically I'm trying to learn it the way
00:40:18
you study anything where I'm just like
00:40:20
making notes and sort of like from floor
00:40:22
54 to 72 it feels like this. I climb the
00:40:25
southeast corner the left ar you know
00:40:26
just and then yeah just writing it all
00:40:28
down
00:40:28
>> and I mean there's this famous photo of
00:40:30
you hanging with your leg.
00:40:31
>> Yeah, that's this these are the rings up
00:40:33
here.
00:40:33
>> So you're hanging you're hanging here
00:40:35
from here with your leg. Yeah. Now, I
00:40:38
this is really a question of endurance.
00:40:40
Like, how do you plan to have the
00:40:41
energy?
00:40:43
Like, how do you know if you're going to
00:40:44
have enough energy when you're up here
00:40:45
when you're just planning it? Well,
00:40:47
>> I mean, what this this is what makes it
00:40:49
exciting because you can't be sure. But,
00:40:51
you know, I've done a lot of climbing in
00:40:52
my life, and I've done a lot of climbs
00:40:53
that were like 24 hours. I mean, I had
00:40:55
this experience in Patagonia once. It
00:40:57
was a 54-hour push. Like, the last 20
00:40:59
hours we hiked without food um cuz we
00:41:02
got caught in a storm. It's a whole
00:41:03
crazy story. But basically, you know,
00:41:04
I've had a lot of experiences in my life
00:41:06
where I've done hard exercise for more
00:41:08
than 24 hours. And so this, you know, I
00:41:11
expect it to take me somewhere in the
00:41:12
hour and a half, two hour range. And I'm
00:41:13
kind of like, yeah, I mean, I'll be
00:41:14
tired after 2 hours of exercise, but I'm
00:41:16
not going to be exhausted. You know what
00:41:18
I mean? Like, I know that I have a much
00:41:20
deeper reserve than that.
00:41:21
>> So much of the conversation around um
00:41:23
after you' done this, or some of the
00:41:25
conversation was around whether this was
00:41:27
a harder challenge than Al Capitan.
00:41:29
>> No, no, it's obviously much easier. I
00:41:32
mean, I'm doing on live television, you
00:41:33
know, it's like obviously it's easier,
00:41:35
but what makes it cool is that it's
00:41:38
different. It's fun. It's challenging.
00:41:40
Like for me, it's really like in my
00:41:41
sweet spot where it is challenging
00:41:43
enough like it's it's not easy. You know
00:41:45
what I mean? Like saying easier than
00:41:46
LCAP, it doesn't, you know, LCAP was
00:41:49
like a 10-year life project that I did
00:41:51
in absolute secrecy. I did it on my
00:41:53
terms on the correct day after years of
00:41:56
effort. I had failed attempts. I you
00:41:58
know what I like LCAP was like an
00:41:59
allconsuming life project for years kind
00:42:02
of like obviously you can't do that for
00:42:04
live TV. It's like you just can't put
00:42:06
anyway
00:42:07
>> but this was very much in my sweet spot
00:42:09
where you're like oh it's hard enough
00:42:11
that it's that it's hard like it's cool
00:42:13
you know like it's fun it's interesting
00:42:15
the climbing is engaging it's you know
00:42:16
gave me something to train for for
00:42:18
months it's like it's super fun but it's
00:42:20
not you know it's not like the absolute
00:42:22
limit of what I can do because you just
00:42:23
can't do that on live TV. I mean, if
00:42:25
nothing else, so I was climbing the
00:42:26
southeast because it gets good morning
00:42:28
light and it looks beautiful and it's
00:42:29
like great for filming. But if I was
00:42:30
trying to do the absolute most cutting
00:42:32
edge climb I could do, I'd be climbing
00:42:33
the northwest arette because it'd be
00:42:35
full shade because it'd be good better
00:42:36
conditions, you know, be colder. Like
00:42:38
you just don't want to be in the sun. It
00:42:39
makes your skin, you know, makes you hot
00:42:40
and stuff.
00:42:41
>> Mhm.
00:42:41
>> And so, you know, just things like that.
00:42:43
You're like, well, if you're doing it
00:42:44
for TV and you're trying to broadcast
00:42:46
it, then you want it to look good. But
00:42:48
like, if you're trying to do it for hard
00:42:50
climbing and good conditions, you do in
00:42:52
full shade. And Netflix had a 10-second
00:42:54
delay just in case you fell.
00:42:56
>> I mean, I'm sure part of it is in case
00:42:57
you fall, but part of it's like, what if
00:42:59
somebody unplugs one of the things or,
00:43:00
you know what I mean? Like, it's so
00:43:02
complicated. There's so much stuff going
00:43:03
on, it's insane.
00:43:04
>> Was there a hardest part of this a part
00:43:06
where you were at all nervous?
00:43:08
>> The thing I was most nervous about when
00:43:09
I started was were the bamboo boxes,
00:43:11
like doing these eight overhanging
00:43:12
segments cuz they're just so
00:43:13
relentlessly the same move and it's just
00:43:16
it's pretty physical like you get tired
00:43:17
for sure. I mean, the actual physical
00:43:20
hardest moves, um, like actually
00:43:22
randomly one of these corners up here
00:43:24
would have been quite a hard move, but
00:43:25
there was this freaking security camera
00:43:27
bolted onto the wall. And so, you use
00:43:28
the security camera as this handle. It
00:43:30
was really freaking cool. And it was
00:43:31
like bolted on with these giant bolts,
00:43:32
so it like looked super safe and, you
00:43:34
know, it was like very robust and
00:43:35
secure, but it would have been kind of
00:43:37
like this extreme jump, which I wasn't,
00:43:39
you know, it's probably possible, but
00:43:40
would have been like a major thing, but
00:43:43
instead you just reef off the security
00:43:45
camera. And I was like, that's so cool.
00:43:46
It was uh so there are a few things like
00:43:48
that like individual moves that are kind
00:43:50
of muscly but overall it's the the
00:43:52
stamina like the challenge of doing this
00:43:54
over and over for hundreds of feet that
00:43:56
was the hardest thing.
00:43:58
>> Do you have a conversation with your
00:43:59
with your girls and wife before you go
00:44:01
and do something like this about just in
00:44:03
case you don't come back? I know the
00:44:05
>> not with the kids cuz they're too young
00:44:06
and like they wouldn't they don't
00:44:07
understand it anyway. Um and not with
00:44:10
her because she came with me to Taipei
00:44:11
or she was there for like the whole end
00:44:13
of I went a little bit earlier so I
00:44:14
could adapt to the time zone more and
00:44:15
like feel better. But um but basically
00:44:18
she was with me so you know like we went
00:44:19
to bed together that night and like woke
00:44:21
up that morning and had breakfast
00:44:22
together. So it didn't feel like a big
00:44:23
goodbye. You know it was kind of
00:44:25
actually she was with me at the base
00:44:26
like we did the start together and then
00:44:28
I literally was like okay bye and walked
00:44:29
over and did the thing and saw her again
00:44:30
going to the top. So we were only apart
00:44:32
for like an hour and a half of the whole
00:44:33
you know like and I saw her through the
00:44:35
window a couple times and so it felt
00:44:37
like she was just there having the whole
00:44:38
experience with me.
00:44:39
>> Did you look at other buildings in the
00:44:40
world like like the Burge? So, yeah,
00:44:42
I've scouted the Burge twice over the
00:44:43
years. Um, back when this project, this
00:44:46
project almost happened in 2013 or
00:44:47
something and so I'd scouted some
00:44:48
buildings then. The Burge was just a
00:44:51
little too extreme. It's just too hard.
00:44:54
But someday maybe, who knows?
00:44:56
>> Cuz it's what? Like there's not enough.
00:44:58
It's too slippery.
00:44:59
>> Um, yeah, super slippery. Also, it's
00:45:02
just the way the holds are. Like I mean,
00:45:03
the beauty of Typo 101 is that the holds
00:45:05
like they're good things to hold that
00:45:06
are close together and you're just like
00:45:08
and you can hold them and you feel
00:45:09
secure. the Burge. I can barely span tip
00:45:11
to tip to like reach between the holds.
00:45:14
>> And so then your face is like right
00:45:15
against the glass. You're like holding
00:45:17
on like this. And it's pretty hard. And
00:45:19
you have to do the same thing 112 times
00:45:21
in a row. It's like pretty hard to do it
00:45:22
once then you have to do 100 times.
00:45:24
You're like it's kind of hard.
00:45:25
>> The other thing that I saw um online
00:45:27
after you'd climbed it about one or two
00:45:28
days after everyone talk started talking
00:45:30
about how much you were paid to do it.
00:45:31
>> I think cuz you did an interview.
00:45:32
>> It's funny. There were some quotes that
00:45:34
were kind of taken out of context
00:45:35
because yeah, a New York Times reporter
00:45:37
asked me how much I was getting paid and
00:45:38
I was kind of like I don't want to talk
00:45:39
about it cuz it's kind of embarrassing
00:45:40
cuz all my friends it's like an
00:45:43
embarrassingly high amount for my
00:45:44
community. Like in the climbing world if
00:45:46
you're getting paid to rock climb you're
00:45:47
like great success, you're getting paid
00:45:48
to climb. That's insane, you know? And
00:45:50
so I thought it was like sort of an
00:45:52
embarrassingly large amount. I'm like
00:45:54
this is kind of weird. But then he sort
00:45:56
of poked around and he started comparing
00:45:57
it to like boxing matches and stuff
00:45:59
where people get paid like $20 million
00:46:00
to like fight someone boxing. And I was
00:46:03
like, "Well, no, compared to that, it's
00:46:04
an embarrassingly small amount." You
00:46:05
know, it's like or if you compare it to
00:46:07
like major league baseball contracts and
00:46:09
things and it's like, "Yeah, it's an
00:46:10
embarrassingly small amount, but I was
00:46:12
never complaining. Like, I thought it
00:46:14
was great. I mean, I would do it for
00:46:16
free. I mean, I've paid money to go up
00:46:19
to the observation deck. The observation
00:46:20
deck is way up here at the top and the
00:46:21
view is insane and the city's
00:46:22
incredible." And, you know, it's like 20
00:46:24
bucks or whatever to take the world's
00:46:26
fastest elevator to the top of the
00:46:27
building. And you know, I've done that
00:46:28
in the Burge as well where you like pay
00:46:30
the money and you go to the very top of
00:46:31
the building and the view is insane.
00:46:32
It's like I do that like anywhere I
00:46:33
travel like the Se the Willis Tower,
00:46:36
whatever the Sears Tower in Chicago.
00:46:37
Like I've paid the money to go to the
00:46:39
observation deck and see the view and
00:46:40
it's so cool. And I'm kind of like if
00:46:41
someone's willing to pay me to climb up
00:46:42
to the observation deck, that's freaking
00:46:44
cool.
00:46:45
>> Yeah. I think it's because people again
00:46:47
they're they're saying that they believe
00:46:48
that this is you're risking your entire
00:46:50
life. Yeah. And and so yeah, they don't
00:46:53
think of boxes as risking their entire
00:46:54
life in the same way.
00:46:55
>> They kind of are.
00:46:56
>> Unless they are. Yeah. But they don't
00:46:58
see it as that.
00:46:58
>> I know. Of course they don't see it as
00:46:59
that. And that's totally understandable.
00:47:00
I get that. But I see it as like anybody
00:47:03
going into the boxing ring, particularly
00:47:05
if they're very mismatched, you know,
00:47:08
like you would think that there is some
00:47:10
real chance of grievous injury or like
00:47:12
death,
00:47:13
>> you know? It's like it's insane.
00:47:14
>> And so I think that people over the
00:47:17
thing is I think people that don't know
00:47:18
anything about anything like don't know
00:47:20
anything about climbing look at me
00:47:21
climbing a building. They're like it's
00:47:22
50/50 if he lives or dies. Like no idea.
00:47:24
And you're like no. If you put this in
00:47:26
the context of all the things that I've
00:47:27
gone in my life, I felt very confident
00:47:29
that I wouldn't fall off the building.
00:47:31
You know, I was like, you know,
00:47:32
obviously it's never 100% because like
00:47:35
whatever it's life, but you know, it
00:47:37
feels like 100%. You're like, oh,
00:47:38
there's no chance I'm falling off this
00:47:40
building.
00:47:40
>> The rumors were that you got 500k to
00:47:42
climb it from Netflix.
00:47:44
>> Throughout my whole like, you know,
00:47:45
quote unquote career as a climber, I
00:47:47
basically have never worried about money
00:47:48
and I've always just tried to do the
00:47:49
thing and let it all play out at the
00:47:51
end. And so I've done a ton of work for
00:47:53
free over the years. Oh, like actually
00:47:54
we were talking about that Halfdme film
00:47:56
earlier where it's like I'm shuffling
00:47:57
along. It's like I did that film for
00:47:58
free. I did tons of films like that for
00:48:00
free. Uh just because you're kind of
00:48:02
like, "Oh, it's part of being a
00:48:02
professional climber and I get to go
00:48:04
climbing and I'm up with my friends
00:48:05
filming on a thing." You're just like,
00:48:06
"You're working for free. It's fine."
00:48:08
But by doing all that stuff for free,
00:48:10
like I never I never stress the day
00:48:12
rate. Never, you know, I was like, I
00:48:13
don't need to get paid to go have fun
00:48:14
with my friends on a wall. Like it's
00:48:16
fine. But as a result of that film, you
00:48:18
know, a year or two later, they wind up
00:48:20
doing a photo shoot out there for the
00:48:21
cover of National Geographic. And so you
00:48:23
just wind up in other things and then
00:48:26
and then that got seen and I wound up
00:48:27
being profiled by 60 Minutes, which
00:48:29
actually was one of the first sort of
00:48:30
career inflection points. It was like
00:48:31
the 60 Minutes profile in 2011 or
00:48:34
something. But basically, I've done a
00:48:36
ton of work for free over my life as all
00:48:38
part of like it's all part of the game
00:48:39
and I just love playing the game. And so
00:48:42
you just like let it play out. And it's
00:48:44
funny because with this building, a lot
00:48:45
of people thought that I was sort of
00:48:46
underpaid by it, but afterward,
00:48:50
you know, some people have approached me
00:48:51
about some bonuses and some other work
00:48:53
stuff and like basically a lot has
00:48:54
already sort of happened and it's only
00:48:55
been a couple weeks since the building.
00:48:57
And I'm kind of like, you know, you
00:48:58
don't need to get paid for the thing
00:48:59
itself cuz it always works basically.
00:49:03
I'm kind of like I don't know. I'm like,
00:49:06
don't get hung up on how much you get
00:49:08
paid. Just do the thing. Make sure it's
00:49:10
freaking rad and it all sorts itself
00:49:11
out.
00:49:13
Yeah. Yeah. That I mean that's also been
00:49:16
like um the that's completely true for
00:49:20
my life as well. Even this podcast like
00:49:21
when we started the podcast in my
00:49:22
kitchen I mean this is a replica of my
00:49:24
kitchen and Jack was here. There was no
00:49:26
pay there was no payment when we started
00:49:27
it.
00:49:28
>> You're just doing a thing. You make it
00:49:29
as good as you can and eventually it all
00:49:31
sort of works and you're like cool.
00:49:32
>> I've I because that that pattern you've
00:49:34
just described has played out for 15
00:49:35
years of my life. I now and again my my
00:49:38
CFO and my commercial director might not
00:49:39
love me saying this but they know this
00:49:41
about me is and we even talked about it
00:49:43
recently with a particular project is
00:49:45
like don't let the inability to see
00:49:48
where the money is going to come from in
00:49:49
the near term stop you pursuing
00:49:51
something that you think is going to
00:49:52
create value because history shows that
00:49:56
actually value like giving value out
00:49:58
into the world precedes
00:50:01
the the e the economics totally. And so
00:50:05
if it happened 15 years of my life where
00:50:06
I remember when I started the social
00:50:08
media business and people some a guy sat
00:50:09
me down in Google in London and
00:50:11
explained to me why I would never make
00:50:13
money from that business. He like he did
00:50:15
the math for me and the math was solid.
00:50:17
>> He was like if you do once a day you
00:50:19
won't make any money. And I was like
00:50:21
>> you're like yeah but I don't think
00:50:22
that's true. You know you're like
00:50:23
>> and you have no evidence but
00:50:25
>> yeah but you just know it's going to
00:50:26
work.
00:50:26
>> Yeah. The Uber CEO sat here with me
00:50:28
yesterday in that scene and he was
00:50:29
telling me he was like the thing is
00:50:31
there's this thing called Jevans paradox
00:50:32
where when yeah when become more
00:50:35
efficient whatever people think of
00:50:37
things in linear progression but
00:50:38
actually there's exponential
00:50:39
progression. So when we launched Uber
00:50:42
more people started taking taxis. So all
00:50:44
of the models about how big this market
00:50:45
were were all wrong. And I find the same
00:50:47
in that and I found the same in about 5
00:50:50
years ago was yeah like you set me down
00:50:52
and go well Steve CPMs you're going to
00:50:53
have to be getting a million downloads
00:50:55
to make like to earn a living like but
00:50:59
>> like wait and see.
00:51:00
>> Yeah thing and let it let it happen.
00:51:02
>> I mean you're a prime example of that.
00:51:04
>> Yeah. It's always better to focus your
00:51:05
energy on being the best at the thing
00:51:07
that you're trying to do than figuring
00:51:09
out how to monetize it or you know make
00:51:11
money off of it. It's like I don't know.
00:51:14
I mean, my whole like life as a climber,
00:51:16
I've always tried to focus on like how
00:51:17
do you send, which in climbing terms
00:51:19
means like do the hard thing. Like you
00:51:21
always focus on sending and then
00:51:23
everything else follows.
00:51:29
>> Whoa. What's that on your face?
00:51:31
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00:53:29
It's funny you you talking about
00:53:30
mortality earlier on and um I think in
00:53:33
the last couple of years my mortality
00:53:34
like realizing that I'm going to die
00:53:35
someday has been such a a wonderful
00:53:37
thing to to really remind myself of and
00:53:39
like a frequent basis.
00:53:41
>> What uh how come?
00:53:42
>> Just because Okay, so there's many
00:53:44
things. One of them is um
00:53:48
the whole idea of like sunk cost bias
00:53:52
where you become successful at a thing
00:53:54
and you and now you have something to
00:53:55
lose. So people go into a state of loss
00:53:57
aversion where they start to protect
00:53:58
what they have. Totally.
00:53:59
>> And this narrows your life in a way
00:54:01
where you stop taking challenges, stop
00:54:02
taking risks, stop doing new things.
00:54:04
>> And the other thing generally about
00:54:05
knowing you're going to die and really
00:54:06
like reminding yourself of that is it
00:54:08
liberates you from getting caught up and
00:54:10
worrying about things that in the grand
00:54:12
scheme of like cosmic reality are like
00:54:14
totally inconsequential.
00:54:15
>> Yeah.
00:54:15
>> I was I was hearing someone say the
00:54:17
other day like do you know the the name
00:54:18
of your great-grandfather?
00:54:21
>> Do you know do you know his first name?
00:54:22
>> Not really. And do you know the life
00:54:24
they lived and what they were worried
00:54:25
about and how they were embarrassed and
00:54:27
their shame.
00:54:28
>> Yeah. Exactly. No, you don't know any of
00:54:29
that.
00:54:29
>> And the point is like if you don't even
00:54:30
know your own family's
00:54:32
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:54:32
>> [ __ ]
00:54:33
>> Like nobody else cares. Yeah.
00:54:34
>> But even like extremely famous people a
00:54:36
couple of weeks after they trend on
00:54:37
Twitter and then a week later everyone
00:54:39
just like gets on with their life again.
00:54:40
>> Totally. Well, I'm already experiencing
00:54:42
that with with this stuff, you know,
00:54:43
like the building was like insane for a
00:54:45
moment, but now it's the Olympics and
00:54:46
there's a lot going on in the news cycle
00:54:47
and it's like the world's moved on. I'm
00:54:49
like great. I'll go back to just like
00:54:51
being at home with my family and
00:54:52
climbing as much as I can.
00:54:53
>> Being at home with your family, you said
00:54:55
earlier that when you're in that van for
00:54:56
10 years, you wanted a girlfriend.
00:54:58
>> Yeah.
00:54:58
>> Now, I'm not being funny, but people
00:55:00
that fit your profile and uh to some
00:55:03
degree, people that fit my profile
00:55:04
struggle in intimate relationships for a
00:55:07
variety of reasons. And I think I
00:55:08
actually saw this in the documentary
00:55:09
when I watched Free Solo. I saw you had
00:55:11
a partner at the time. There was an
00:55:13
accident on the cliff side where you
00:55:14
fell and she was supposed to be
00:55:16
protecting you.
00:55:16
>> Mhm. And generally I just saw someone
00:55:19
who probably is more on the um less
00:55:21
affectionate, more commitment avoidant
00:55:23
side of life. Is that accurate?
00:55:26
>> I don't know about commitment avoidant
00:55:28
because actually I have had long-term
00:55:29
girlfriends and things but but yeah,
00:55:30
definitely I'm like less expressive. I'm
00:55:32
less emotionally intelligent than my
00:55:34
wife.
00:55:35
>> Has she ever given you feedback that she
00:55:36
wishes you were more emotionally
00:55:39
uh available? I mean, I get that.
00:55:42
>> I mean, yeah. Yeah. in in different
00:55:45
words perhaps, but yeah, basically
00:55:48
>> Sonnie.
00:55:49
>> Yeah, Sonnie
00:55:49
>> is her name.
00:55:51
>> She wrote a letter.
00:55:52
>> Oh gosh,
00:55:53
>> that's funny because the first two words
00:55:54
are, "Oh gosh, an intimate letter out
00:55:57
loud."
00:55:57
>> Oh gosh, she she does know me.
00:56:01
>> Obviously, this is your worst nightmare,
00:56:03
she said.
00:56:03
>> That's She knows me so well.
00:56:06
>> But we all have to do scary things
00:56:07
sometimes, Alex.
00:56:08
>> Ah, my coach.
00:56:12
She said, "I remember when you read a
00:56:14
book once about a woman who said she was
00:56:16
less affected by emotions than most
00:56:18
people. For her entire life, people
00:56:20
tried to convince her that she was
00:56:22
wrong, that she was suppressing her
00:56:24
feelings, but at the end of the day, she
00:56:26
just wasn't." As you were reading, you
00:56:29
turned to me and said something similar,
00:56:31
something like, "Everyone wants to
00:56:33
believe that I'm burying all these
00:56:34
things, these feelings deep inside, but
00:56:37
I'm just not." And I laughed and I
00:56:39
joked, "Don't worry. I know you're dead
00:56:42
inside. If I remember correctly, you
00:56:45
gave me a hug. But I've thought about
00:56:47
this conversation a lot because as the
00:56:49
person married to you, I spend a lot of
00:56:52
time trying to understand you. And while
00:56:54
there obviously are emotions that drive
00:56:56
you, I was mostly joking about the dead
00:56:58
inside part. I do think you are far less
00:57:01
affected by some feelings like anxiety,
00:57:03
fear, shame, guilt, or self-doubt than
00:57:05
many of us. But the longer I know you,
00:57:08
the more I see an ocean of something
00:57:10
else hiding beneath the surface. Filling
00:57:12
the space that would normally be taken
00:57:14
up by all these feelings is the ability
00:57:16
to truly see things. You move through
00:57:18
the world like a hawk while the rest of
00:57:21
us are lost in thought. As a climber,
00:57:23
you can see the way up a rock face, the
00:57:25
climbability of a building, or the
00:57:27
layered history of a mountain range. As
00:57:30
a father, you notice the quiet intrinsic
00:57:32
desires of your daughters or the chores
00:57:35
that need doing around the house. And as
00:57:37
a friend, you see the raw potential in
00:57:39
every person that you meet. Sometimes
00:57:42
this is the hardest thing about you.
00:57:43
Nothing goes unnoticed. Neither the
00:57:47
strengths nor the weaknesses, the
00:57:48
moments of dedication or the moments of
00:57:50
laziness. You are practical and blunt in
00:57:52
your assessment of your choices and our
00:57:54
lives. But that's also because you see
00:57:57
us. And paying attention is love. Your
00:58:01
ability to see the world so clearly
00:58:03
allows you to also appreciate it more
00:58:04
clearly. And that is a special form of
00:58:07
your love. Perhaps there's a well of
00:58:10
emotion in there after all. But but for
00:58:14
the purposes of this letter, Alex, I
00:58:16
want to give you your gift back to you
00:58:18
and tell you what what I see
00:58:21
particularly in the last four years
00:58:22
since we had kids because I think the
00:58:24
way you move through the world with us
00:58:26
is a unique love story. I see you
00:58:29
rushing down the trail from the climbing
00:58:32
area so you can get back in time for
00:58:35
dinner with me and the girls. I see you
00:58:37
flying the red eye so you can be home a
00:58:39
day sooner. I see you cramming in your
00:58:41
gym session even when you have a huge
00:58:43
goal on the horizon so that I have time
00:58:46
for my workout too. I see you pushing
00:58:49
your body to the absolute limit during
00:58:50
the day but still managing to stay awake
00:58:53
long enough to chat to me at night. I
00:58:55
see you taking on an extra day of travel
00:58:58
just to convince someone with money to
00:59:00
donate to your foundation and help save
00:59:01
the planet. I see you adjusting your
00:59:04
whole training schedule for work
00:59:05
opportunities in order to provide a
00:59:07
wonderful life for me and the girls. I
00:59:10
see the insane juggling act you do every
00:59:12
day to not only be a great athlete, but
00:59:14
a great dad and husband. I know it's not
00:59:17
easy, but I see it and I appreciate it.
00:59:20
We love you as you are, Alex. Not overly
00:59:24
emotional, but present, committed, and
00:59:27
always seeing what others miss.
00:59:31
Yours,
00:59:33
Sani,
00:59:36
she is very astute. I was like that's
00:59:40
I was like that's why I married her you
00:59:42
know
00:59:45
she is very astute.
00:59:47
Yeah.
00:59:49
I learned a lot about you from reading
00:59:51
this.
00:59:51
>> H what do you think?
00:59:54
>> You know we all show our love in
00:59:55
different ways and sometimes I think the
00:59:58
conventional way that the world tries to
01:00:00
measure love is through the like verbal
01:00:02
expression of it and romantic gestures
01:00:04
and those kinds of things. But there's
01:00:07
another type of person who often
01:00:08
struggles, I think, in in what life's
01:00:10
expectations of what love looks like,
01:00:12
who show it through acts of service.
01:00:15
That was that was literally one of our
01:00:17
last big arguments about something like
01:00:18
in bed the other night, not like a total
01:00:20
blowout, but basically she was sort of
01:00:23
like, I just need more, you know, of the
01:00:25
verbal kind. And I was kind of like, I'm
01:00:27
literally doing all the things. And I
01:00:28
always sort of say, you know, actions
01:00:30
speak louder than words. I'm kind of
01:00:31
like, if you're doing all the things,
01:00:32
you're doing the correct things. you
01:00:34
don't need to talk about them because
01:00:35
you're doing the things, you know, and
01:00:37
that was basically a a back and forth. I
01:00:40
mean, you know, I took her point that
01:00:41
like occasionally you have to say the
01:00:42
right thing, too.
01:00:43
>> Well, I have the same the same argument
01:00:46
on repeat with my fiance.
01:00:48
>> H she needs the words, too.
01:00:49
>> Yeah. She has like a different language.
01:00:51
She's speaking Spanish. I'm speaking
01:00:52
French.
01:00:52
>> Yeah.
01:00:53
>> And also, by the way, I have to say at
01:00:56
some deep level, again, because of my
01:00:57
early context where like you, I wished
01:00:59
my parents would break up. I wish they
01:01:01
would just get a divorce because the
01:01:03
model of love I saw was not a happy one.
01:01:05
I think at some deep level I have a
01:01:06
commitment problem or an intimacy
01:01:07
problem where
01:01:08
>> even growing up say calling someone my
01:01:10
best friend somewhat made me cringe.
01:01:13
>> Like saying saying affectionate words to
01:01:14
someone at some deep level made me feel
01:01:16
deeply uncomfortable
01:01:18
>> and so you can imagine me being ding and
01:01:20
then I think like often times we go for
01:01:22
the opposite in the person we end up mar
01:01:24
like marrying or
01:01:25
>> Yeah. Certainly for me. Yeah.
01:01:27
>> Yeah. Well certainly.
01:01:28
>> Yeah. My wife is like way more
01:01:29
emotionally intelligent than anyone in
01:01:31
my entire extended family.
01:01:32
>> Yeah, same.
01:01:34
>> This is how you build a rich life is
01:01:35
that you basically like I mean it's like
01:01:36
hiring. You find members of the team who
01:01:38
have all the strengths that you need and
01:01:40
it's like the things that you can't do
01:01:41
and
01:01:42
>> it's like filling your blind spots
01:01:43
basically.
01:01:44
>> Have you got better at saying the words?
01:01:46
>> No.
01:01:47
>> Any progress?
01:01:48
>> Uh yeah, progress probably. But very
01:01:51
slow. But in a way that's great, you
01:01:52
know, because we're going to be married
01:01:53
the rest of our lives and so that could
01:01:55
be another 50 60 years together. And so
01:01:57
you need to see incremental progress,
01:01:58
you know, because really there's nothing
01:02:00
better in life than making progress. And
01:02:02
I've started at such a low point and I'm
01:02:04
making progress so slowly that I
01:02:05
basically have a good project for the
01:02:07
rest of my life. Oh, um, we kind of
01:02:09
touched on it before, but one of the
01:02:10
things that's been in front of mind for
01:02:11
me at the moment is, um, actually
01:02:12
something I saw in your personality
01:02:14
test, which was you were high in
01:02:16
perseverance.
01:02:18
And, uh, we talked earlier on about like
01:02:19
mastery and how it's important to, um,
01:02:23
persist to get good at something. But
01:02:26
this has just been front of mind for me
01:02:27
I think for a long time because even
01:02:29
like as a podcaster I realize that a lot
01:02:30
of the game I'm like five years in now
01:02:33
and um when I look at someone like Joe
01:02:36
Rogan he's been going for like I don't
01:02:38
know 15 17 years
01:02:40
>> or more
01:02:41
>> and I go like so much of the game in
01:02:44
becoming great at something grinding
01:02:46
it's just going unusual amount of
01:02:49
>> it's like compounding interest. I'm like
01:02:50
look at Warren Buffett. Have you ever
01:02:51
seen stuff with Warren Buffett where
01:02:52
it's like, you know, it took him
01:02:54
whatever 40 years to make his first
01:02:55
couple million or whatever, took him
01:02:57
another like 10 or 15 years to make his
01:02:58
first billion and then it took him like
01:03:00
whatever in the last eight years he's
01:03:02
made like hundred billion dollars, you
01:03:03
know, cuz his whole wealth is like woo.
01:03:05
>> You're kind of like basically if you put
01:03:06
enough time into something and you let
01:03:07
it compound, it like slowly gets bigger
01:03:09
and bigger.
01:03:10
>> It's exactly that. And so I've been
01:03:11
thinking about like
01:03:12
>> So all those numbers are incorrect, but
01:03:13
the the shape of the graph is correct.
01:03:15
>> We'll put it on the screen so everyone
01:03:16
can see.
01:03:16
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Somebody correct my
01:03:18
numbers. The principle is correct.
01:03:20
>> It's the same. It's the same as this
01:03:22
graph here that you drew of your career.
01:03:24
>> Um it's the same as the podcast growth
01:03:26
where three years no one was listening
01:03:27
and then we have this
01:03:28
>> Yeah.
01:03:28
>> Um and I I think as a principle
01:03:30
>> that's why you focus on doing something
01:03:31
of value because with the podcast like
01:03:32
if you feel like you're doing something
01:03:34
useful and that you think is cool and
01:03:36
you think there's something there you
01:03:37
just keep doing it and eventually people
01:03:38
get on board.
01:03:40
>> Okay. So
01:03:42
on that train of thought, I've thought a
01:03:44
lot about how do I create the conditions
01:03:46
to outpersist other people in the areas
01:03:49
that I love. And one such thing, for
01:03:52
example, with a podcast is like never
01:03:53
have a conversation that I'm not looking
01:03:55
forward to
01:03:56
>> because that's unsustainable over the
01:03:57
long term.
01:03:58
>> Totally. Cuz then it feels like hard
01:03:59
work as opposed to something like this
01:04:01
is amazing.
01:04:01
>> Yeah. So when I look at my they'll say,
01:04:03
oh this person wants to come and they've
01:04:05
got 160 gazillion followers.
01:04:07
>> But you're like I don't care about that
01:04:08
person.
01:04:08
>> Yeah. Because if I if I use that as a
01:04:10
decision framework for the next 10
01:04:11
years, I'll quit.
01:04:12
>> Yeah.
01:04:13
>> Do you think about that like the
01:04:14
conditions to out persist in your
01:04:16
domain?
01:04:16
>> I mean, kind of. Yeah. I mean, I haven't
01:04:18
had to think about it too much because I
01:04:20
freaking love climbing in all its forms.
01:04:21
And so, basically, climbing comes
01:04:23
easily, but like in terms of the work
01:04:25
stuff I do, um I forget I think I was
01:04:27
talking to you before we started
01:04:28
recording, but um but I host this
01:04:29
podcast called Planet Visionaries. Uh
01:04:31
it's like a Rolex Perpetual Planet. Like
01:04:33
I interview scientists and
01:04:34
conservationists and whatever. And for
01:04:35
whatever reason, every time I do those
01:04:37
podcasts, I come out of it feeling all
01:04:38
energized and like, I should train more.
01:04:40
I should study. I should learn
01:04:41
something. Basically, because the people
01:04:42
that I'm interviewing are all so
01:04:44
uniquely good at what they do, and
01:04:46
they're all trying to save the world in
01:04:47
different ways. It's like, you know,
01:04:48
marine biologists like exploring the
01:04:50
deep sea floor and things like that.
01:04:51
Yesterday, I interviewed these two uh
01:04:54
women about the fact that we've only
01:04:56
explored .001% of the deep sea, which
01:04:59
represents twothirds of the planet. So,
01:05:00
basically, twothirds of the planet we
01:05:02
know like literally nothing about. And
01:05:03
there's like this rich underwater
01:05:06
world of like cool stuff going on in the
01:05:08
ocean floor that we've never seen and
01:05:09
know nothing about and it's insane. I
01:05:11
was like that's so cool. And I got all
01:05:12
fired up about it. And so I come out of
01:05:14
work thing, you know, quote unquote work
01:05:16
things like that and I'm like energized
01:05:17
and excited to learn and grow, you know,
01:05:19
push myself and I'm kind of like that's
01:05:21
the type of work that I want to do as
01:05:23
much as possible. And then there are
01:05:24
other kinds of things where you know
01:05:25
I'll do like corporate speaking or
01:05:26
something where you show up at a
01:05:27
conference and you just like get ground
01:05:29
down you know when you leave and you go
01:05:31
back to your hotel and all you can do is
01:05:33
just like lie there on the bed for an
01:05:34
hour being like h what am I doing with
01:05:36
my life you know you feel like kind of
01:05:37
wrecked.
01:05:38
>> So it's like if you can focus on the
01:05:40
work where you come out of it feeling
01:05:41
inspired and like excited to try hard
01:05:43
versus the work that makes you want to
01:05:46
like mindlessly scroll on something for
01:05:48
hours. You know what I mean? Cuz
01:05:49
sometimes you're just like oh I'm just
01:05:50
so over it.
01:05:52
>> Yeah. Someone said that to me in my
01:05:53
career. I said like whenever you find
01:05:55
domains that make you feel expansive
01:05:57
like
01:05:57
>> totally
01:05:58
>> you should double down on those domains
01:06:00
cuz you're that's the path to mastery.
01:06:01
You're going to be able to continue.
01:06:03
>> Yeah. Because you can just keep pushing
01:06:04
super hard in that
01:06:06
>> thankfully for climbing that's always
01:06:07
just been that like I just freaking love
01:06:09
climbing. It's so great. You should do
01:06:10
it more.
01:06:11
>> I know you you make us all want to climb
01:06:13
more, Alex.
01:06:14
>> That's one of the I think the great um
01:06:16
consequences of watching you do
01:06:18
something like Taipei. I mean, there was
01:06:19
loads of kids in the streets of Taipei,
01:06:21
I think, that were all trying to climb
01:06:22
buildings. There was loads of like funny
01:06:23
videos. Then, obviously, they were only
01:06:24
getting like a meter up before they
01:06:26
fell.
01:06:27
>> I was like, hopefully they don't Yeah,
01:06:28
hopefully it's not too much copycatting,
01:06:30
but yeah, we got some crazy numbers from
01:06:32
Netflix that I think half of people or
01:06:34
more than half of people who have a
01:06:36
Netflix subscription in in Taiwan
01:06:38
watched the building climb on uh it's
01:06:40
like in in Taiwan, it was like insane.
01:06:42
Like, literally everybody watch. It's
01:06:44
it's such a it's such a singular
01:06:46
striking building in in Taipei. It's
01:06:48
like a total national icon, you know?
01:06:50
It's like a it's it's insane.
01:06:52
>> Have you already started thinking about
01:06:54
what you're going to do next?
01:06:55
>> People are always like, you know, what's
01:06:56
your next big thing? And I'm kind of
01:06:57
like, you know, if you just focus on
01:06:58
doing lots of little things all the
01:07:00
time, occasionally the big things just
01:07:02
happen and you can't totally know ahead
01:07:04
of time. You know what I mean?
01:07:05
>> That's me.
01:07:05
>> Well, so at least, so I mean, I have
01:07:07
climbing goals going back 20 years. I
01:07:09
have all these notes on my phone. I
01:07:10
always have like to-do lists. of
01:07:12
especially when I lived in the van and I
01:07:13
was traveling, you're like seasonally
01:07:14
moving between climbing destinations
01:07:16
non-stop. So I'd lay I'd layer out all
01:07:17
these different types of goals. Like I
01:07:18
want to do these types of things.
01:07:20
Certain goals lead to other goals
01:07:21
because they're same type of fitness,
01:07:23
let's say. So like doing really big
01:07:24
things help you do even bigger things
01:07:26
later, but doing like really hard and
01:07:28
intense things help you do other hard
01:07:29
and intense things later, you know? So
01:07:31
in some ways in the way you stack your
01:07:33
goals, you can kind of build up to big
01:07:34
things or like build up to really hard
01:07:36
things or whatever. And so I've always
01:07:39
had running to-do lists of like I'm
01:07:40
going to try to do all these climbs this
01:07:42
year. And realistically, I normally do
01:07:45
like half of them or or some of them I
01:07:46
never even get to because it's like the
01:07:48
weather's not good. I wind up going to a
01:07:49
different area or I like don't go to
01:07:51
that that climbing destination at all.
01:07:52
And so I never even try the project. But
01:07:54
I've always had tons of goals like that.
01:07:57
And looking back at years and years of
01:07:58
that type of those types of lists, I
01:08:01
just see that it's slightly hard to
01:08:03
predict when you're going to achieve the
01:08:05
things that are like cutting edge or
01:08:06
groundbreaking or whatever. You just
01:08:08
have to keep doing the things non-stop
01:08:10
and every once in a while some of them
01:08:12
rise to the top. I mean, this kind of
01:08:13
goes back to the same like value
01:08:14
creating things like you don't know
01:08:15
which things are going to be rad. You
01:08:16
just do all the things and some of them
01:08:18
wind up being rad.
01:08:20
>> And the decision framework there is to
01:08:22
just do things you love and that
01:08:24
challenge you.
01:08:25
>> Yeah. things that push you in a like
01:08:27
things that are new for you that are
01:08:28
hard for you that are challenging in the
01:08:30
right ways, you know, but you just can't
01:08:32
you don't always know ahead of time
01:08:34
which of those things are going to stand
01:08:35
out or not, but you just do them anyway
01:08:38
because you're learning from them,
01:08:39
you're excited about them, they're hard
01:08:41
and then, you know, some are cool, some
01:08:43
aren't. Some you never even try and like
01:08:45
that's fine. You just keep doing things.
01:08:46
the CEO of Uber, Dario, was was sat
01:08:48
there yesterday and one of the um
01:08:49
contrarian pieces of life advice he
01:08:51
gave, which is kind of overlaid with
01:08:52
what you just said, is he said people
01:08:54
need to stop making young people in
01:08:56
particular need to stop making life life
01:08:58
plans
01:08:59
>> because it narrows them to the
01:09:01
serendipity and opportunity and things
01:09:02
that might happen if they're broad and
01:09:04
openminded.
01:09:05
>> Well, or um uh my wife and I sometimes
01:09:08
joke it's that we both have very strong
01:09:10
opinions loosely held where it's like,
01:09:11
"Oh, I'm totally sure of a thing right
01:09:13
up until I get some data that shows that
01:09:14
that's wrong." And then you're like,
01:09:15
"Oh, never mind. throw that away. And
01:09:16
that's kind of how a lot of my to-do
01:09:18
lists have always been or like my goals
01:09:19
where I'm like, "Oh, I have all these
01:09:21
goals." But if I take a slight fork in
01:09:23
my year where it's like turns out, uh,
01:09:25
you know, for whatever reason, like
01:09:26
something else lines up and it makes
01:09:28
sense to do all these other things and
01:09:29
I'm just like right turn and just
01:09:30
change.
01:09:31
>> Mhm.
01:09:31
>> You know,
01:09:32
>> and it overlaps with what you said
01:09:33
earlier about like not worrying so much
01:09:34
about like how much it's going to pay me
01:09:35
today or what the big thing is or
01:09:38
>> it's kind of like just just keep doing
01:09:40
cool things. It'll it'll all work out. I
01:09:43
would love if we could, you know, scan
01:09:44
your brain and look at all the parts.
01:09:45
It's especially in the context I learned
01:09:47
of about this particular region of the
01:09:48
brain called the anterior mid-sulate
01:09:50
cortex.
01:09:51
>> Okay.
01:09:51
>> Which I heard Andrew Hman been talking
01:09:52
about. And it's a part of the brain they
01:09:54
discovered quite recently that lights up
01:09:56
when you do things that you don't want
01:09:58
to do.
01:09:59
>> So not things that you enjoy doing that
01:10:01
are somewhat like difficult like running
01:10:02
a marathon, but things that you actively
01:10:04
avoid and resist but do anyway. Pain,
01:10:06
fear, effort, discipline. This is the
01:10:08
circuit that decides whether you quit or
01:10:09
you push through. And it grows the more
01:10:12
you do things you don't want to do. So
01:10:13
it's like they now consider it to be the
01:10:14
muscle of willpower in the brain. When
01:10:16
they look at athletes, they have bigger
01:10:18
ones. When they look at people who are
01:10:20
>> struggling or less are more sedentary or
01:10:22
struggling with their weight, they often
01:10:23
have smaller ones. Anyone that avoids
01:10:26
discomfort has a smaller one.
01:10:27
>> So um
01:10:30
in your in the context of the way you've
01:10:31
lived your life, you've continued to do
01:10:32
things that are hard. I mean, you can
01:10:34
love climbing, but you don't necessarily
01:10:36
love
01:10:36
>> Yeah. But just doing like one more set
01:10:38
every time is like that's that's always
01:10:40
a challenge. You're always like my whole
01:10:42
body hurts but I'll just do a little
01:10:43
more, you know?
01:10:44
>> Yeah. And I think the thing I guess here
01:10:46
is like about neuroplasticity which
01:10:47
there's going to be a ton of people
01:10:49
listening right now that are so far away
01:10:51
from their type A
01:10:52
>> from their type A 101. They're so far
01:10:54
away from that. They're in a job they
01:10:55
just don't like. They're maybe the
01:10:57
finance bra that you know you talked
01:10:58
about a second ago and their life is
01:11:00
absent of ad adventure and they probably
01:11:03
look at you and go well you know he just
01:11:04
has something I don't have. I know, but
01:11:06
I just don't, you know, I mean, I've
01:11:08
structured my life in a different way
01:11:09
and I've made many different choices and
01:11:11
and all that, but that's the thing is I
01:11:12
don't really think I have anything
01:11:14
different. I mean, I I actually hate all
01:11:16
the like brain stuff because people
01:11:17
always like use that to to put me in
01:11:20
this box of like, well, you're
01:11:22
different. And I'm like, well, not
01:11:23
really. Like, I'm a middle class
01:11:24
suburban kid. Both my parents like
01:11:25
nobody in my family is athletic. Like,
01:11:27
nobody is good at sports at all. You
01:11:30
know, it's like like basically if you
01:11:33
were to like look at the, you know, like
01:11:35
if I was a video game character and you
01:11:36
were to look at all my little bars,
01:11:37
you'd be like, "That guy's not going to
01:11:39
be an athlete. Like he's not good at
01:11:40
this." You know, it's like my parents
01:11:41
professors and we freaking read books.
01:11:43
Like I'm not there's no aptitude for
01:11:46
anything really.
01:11:47
>> And I was like bad at sports as a kid.
01:11:49
I'm not good with balls. Like, you know,
01:11:50
there's no reason. But I mean, really, I
01:11:52
just have loved climbing enough that
01:11:53
I've been willing to put in a tremendous
01:11:55
amount of time and effort and eventually
01:11:57
get good at it. And I'm kind of like to
01:11:59
hear people say like, "Oh, your brain's
01:12:00
different." You're kind of like, "Well,
01:12:01
everybody's brain is a little bit
01:12:02
different in some ways." It doesn't mean
01:12:04
that you can't devote yourself to
01:12:05
something that you care about. But with
01:12:07
this in mind, and with all the
01:12:08
neuroscientists that I've interviewed,
01:12:10
your brain is different in part because
01:12:12
you've taken you've done different
01:12:14
things. And neuroplasticity says you can
01:12:16
change your brain right the way up
01:12:17
throughout your your entire life. One of
01:12:19
my friends, um, Tom Bilu is a good
01:12:21
example of that. He's a big podcaster.
01:12:22
You might know Tom Bilu. Um, but he, you
01:12:25
know, he was, I can't remember the rough
01:12:26
age, but I'm going to say he was 30
01:12:28
years old. He was so, in his words, lazy
01:12:31
that he would lay in bed all day. When
01:12:33
his girlfriend came home, he said he
01:12:35
would jump up out of bed just so she
01:12:36
didn't believe that he was in bed all
01:12:37
day. And he didn't want to be
01:12:39
embarrassed. And when he asked his at
01:12:41
the time girlfriend if if he could um
01:12:43
asked her dad if he could marry her, dad
01:12:45
said no. He was he just he was like lazy
01:12:48
down and out. Over the next 10 years, he
01:12:50
makes decisions to take on more
01:12:53
difficult challenges, builds a billion
01:12:55
dollar company, sells it. If you meet
01:12:56
this guy today, you'd think like
01:12:57
athlete, genius, super smart, motivated.
01:13:00
You'd beg him for advice on discipline
01:13:01
and motivation. Like he's that kind of
01:13:03
guy.
01:13:04
>> What? Yeah. So, what did he do?
01:13:05
>> He read a book about neuroplasticity and
01:13:07
he realized that he wasn't stuck.
01:13:09
>> He he learned about neuroplasticity,
01:13:11
which means that at any age in your
01:13:12
life, the decisions you make change your
01:13:14
brain. And that's why I love this
01:13:15
discovery of this anterior mid-syncular
01:13:17
cortex because it means that like maybe
01:13:19
in part the reason why I'm not taking on
01:13:22
my type A 101 is because I haven't taken
01:13:25
on my type A 101.
01:13:27
>> Yeah. You have well you haven't taken on
01:13:29
uh your type A1. You know your type A
01:13:32
your type A 12 or whatever. you know,
01:13:33
like just the little pieces at the
01:13:35
bottom. Cuz that's the thing is like and
01:13:37
and actually this is why when you ask
01:13:38
about like any big goals, I'm like I I
01:13:40
sometimes I think the big goals are
01:13:41
slightly limiting because like if you're
01:13:43
your friend who's laying in bed, typo
01:13:46
101 is not the appropriate goal. You
01:13:47
know what I mean? Like you need you need
01:13:49
to type a four. Like you need to just
01:13:51
get out and like do a little thing. You
01:13:52
need to achieve some success. you need
01:13:54
to see that you can do something and you
01:13:55
need to take on appropriately sized
01:13:57
challenges because I think having a
01:13:58
great white whale, you know, is is great
01:14:01
sometimes, but that's not always what
01:14:03
you need, you know,
01:14:04
>> and and partially like for me right now,
01:14:06
you know, we're raising two little kids
01:14:07
and we're just like in the midst of it,
01:14:09
you know, it's like bedtime right now is
01:14:10
hanging. It's just like it's a lot. And
01:14:12
I'm like, I don't need like an LC
01:14:13
capsized goal right now because, you
01:14:15
know, we're just trying to make it
01:14:17
through a certain phase of life really.
01:14:19
Not to say that I'll never have other
01:14:21
big goals, but you're kind of like you
01:14:23
you want your goals to be appropriate to
01:14:24
the the time and and and space that you
01:14:27
have available.
01:14:28
>> I had a psychologist say to me about
01:14:30
this idea of just setting yourself a
01:14:32
type A1, like a small goal. The reason
01:14:34
why people don't do it is because they
01:14:36
see it as almost so embarrassingly small
01:14:39
that they don't think it matters.
01:14:41
>> Yeah. But I mean, but that's why you
01:14:42
focus on it doesn't matter to you. Like
01:14:44
is it something that you haven't done?
01:14:45
Like is it good for your growth? Is it
01:14:47
challenging for you? like it's good
01:14:49
enough.
01:14:50
>> But that same psychologist told me that
01:14:51
when they were dealing with a patient
01:14:52
who was so demotivated um that they
01:14:54
couldn't get out of their bedroom which
01:14:55
was stacked to the ceiling with plates
01:14:57
and cutlery that day one was bringing
01:15:00
the Hoover into the room. That was day
01:15:01
one. Day two was plugging it in. That
01:15:03
was day two. And by day 30 they're
01:15:06
outside. This is someone who was scared
01:15:07
of going outside. They're outside
01:15:08
walking around. The room is clean. But
01:15:10
he he said to me that people don't take
01:15:12
that first step because it's so
01:15:13
embarrassingly small that it's almost
01:15:15
shameful to say like today we're just
01:15:16
going to bring the Hoover in. Yeah, but
01:15:18
that's the thing is it's always better
01:15:19
to take a step than to not take a step,
01:15:22
>> you know? That's Yeah. I mean, that's
01:15:23
how I've always felt with with all these
01:15:25
things. You're like, well, you might as
01:15:26
well go out and do the thing. Like, do
01:15:27
something.
01:15:29
You remember at the beginning I was
01:15:30
like, you don't let perfect be the enemy
01:15:31
of good. Like, you do the good thing,
01:15:34
you know, cuz it like it's like don't
01:15:36
let perfectionism [ __ ] you, you know?
01:15:39
It's like that's why I think you know
01:15:40
Taipe A 101 if that's kind of like your
01:15:42
perfect goal. It's like don't let that
01:15:44
hold you back from going out and
01:15:46
climbing Taipe A 4 or Type A or you know
01:15:47
like some of the surrounding little
01:15:48
buildings because it's like you practice
01:15:50
on what you can. Goes back to this point
01:15:51
of perseverance. I read a quote many
01:15:52
years ago that said um greatness doesn't
01:15:54
exist. Greatness is just good repeated.
01:15:56
>> I mean this is what I'm saying about
01:15:58
having lots of little goals is that I
01:15:59
would actually say that if you repeat
01:16:01
good enough every once in a while some
01:16:03
of those are great actually but you just
01:16:04
don't totally know. You know, I noticed
01:16:06
that a lot like in my climbing life,
01:16:08
like in the long arc of climbing, there
01:16:10
are tons of things I did in use where
01:16:12
like in a season I'd have like five or
01:16:14
six goals in use and I'd do all the
01:16:16
things and one of them for whatever
01:16:17
reason would wind up being like that's
01:16:19
rad and it would, you know, like makes
01:16:21
climbing news and things like that. And
01:16:23
the other ones, you know, maybe less so,
01:16:25
but you don't totally know ahead of time
01:16:26
which ones are cool or not and which
01:16:27
ones are going to stand the test of
01:16:28
time.
01:16:29
At one point in the not too distant
01:16:31
past, I held a speed record on every
01:16:33
major formation in use. Now a few of
01:16:35
them have been broken over time and but
01:16:37
those are the kinds of things where you
01:16:38
never really know like how long those
01:16:39
types of records will last cuz sometimes
01:16:41
you do them and then your friend comes
01:16:42
and breaks it the next season and you're
01:16:43
like cool and you go back and forth and
01:16:45
it's all part of a fun game and then
01:16:46
some of them you set a speed record and
01:16:47
it lasts for like 15 years and you're
01:16:49
sort of like oh I didn't realize that
01:16:51
this was going to be like such a
01:16:52
milestone. You know,
01:16:53
>> it reminds me of um the Steve Jobs quote
01:16:56
about how you can only really connect
01:16:57
the dots looking backwards in a
01:16:58
>> Totally. Totally.
01:17:00
>> Steve Jobs quote from his commencement
01:17:02
speech was, "You can't connect the dots
01:17:03
looking forward. You can only connect
01:17:05
them looking backwards." So, you have to
01:17:06
trust that the dots will somehow connect
01:17:09
in your future. Clarity isn't a
01:17:11
prerequisite for action. It's the reward
01:17:14
you get after you move. And that's
01:17:17
that's the thing I think cuz I do so
01:17:18
many interviews like, you know, when was
01:17:19
the moment you decided to be a
01:17:20
professional climber? And I'm like,
01:17:22
there's no moment. Like, I just did the
01:17:23
thing for years and years. And now
01:17:25
looking backward, it looks like this
01:17:26
amazing arc, you know, but at the moment
01:17:28
you're always, you know, I spent years
01:17:29
being like, should I go back to college?
01:17:30
Like, do I need a degree? Like, and then
01:17:32
I spent a few years wondering if I
01:17:33
should go back and get like an executive
01:17:34
MBA or something or something because I
01:17:36
was like, I don't want to go back to
01:17:37
undergrad. I've been living in my van
01:17:39
for 10 years. And but you're kind of
01:17:40
like still, I need that validation. I
01:17:42
need, you know, I want to jump through
01:17:43
the hoops. And then really, it's only
01:17:45
now that I'm kind of like, I don't think
01:17:46
I need that. In part, I think the reason
01:17:48
why we um we so many of us get forced
01:17:50
into procrastination when we're trying
01:17:51
to connect the dots looking forward is
01:17:52
because we face these questions from
01:17:54
society which is like what's your plan?
01:17:55
What's your career? What are you aiming
01:17:56
at? And we don't have answers. So, we
01:17:58
fill in the gaps. We have to say
01:18:00
something to mom and dad. You have to
01:18:01
say like what's the plan for the future?
01:18:03
You can't say nothing. No plan.
01:18:04
>> Well, or you just say, "I'm living. I'm
01:18:05
just letting it play out. We'll just see
01:18:07
see what happens. It's going to be a
01:18:08
grand adventure." I don't know. I mean,
01:18:11
I kind of hope my my kids feel confident
01:18:13
with that, you know, just kind of like,
01:18:15
"Well, I'm doing the best I can. and I'm
01:18:16
practicing the things that I care about
01:18:18
and we'll see how it plays out.
01:18:19
>> We'll see how it plays out cuz like
01:18:21
either way it's going to play out with
01:18:22
with me and them and everybody else
01:18:24
dying. You're like, you know how it's
01:18:25
going to play out at the end end. And so
01:18:27
you're kind of like the whole space up
01:18:29
to there is like, oh, you just try to
01:18:30
fill it with as many things that you're
01:18:31
proud of as you can.
01:18:33
>> It's a remarkably simple way to live in
01:18:34
a world that's increasingly complex,
01:18:36
Alex. Hm. Well, I mean, it doesn't need
01:18:38
to be that complex,
01:18:42
but this is why I think spending some
01:18:44
time in nature like helps remind you of
01:18:45
some of those sorts of things. This
01:18:47
company that I've just invested in, it's
01:18:48
grown like crazy. I want to be the one
01:18:50
to tell you about it because I think
01:18:51
it's going to create such a huge
01:18:52
productivity advantage for you. Whisper
01:18:54
Flow is an app that you can get on your
01:18:55
computer and on your phone, on all your
01:18:57
devices, and it allows you to speak to
01:18:59
your technology. So, instead of me
01:19:00
writing out an email, I click one button
01:19:01
on my phone and I can just speak the
01:19:04
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01:19:50
Steven. It will be a game changer for
01:19:52
you. If you knew that you only had one
01:19:55
week left to live and this was the week
01:19:57
and you could only do one last climb,
01:19:59
you go back and recapture the record, go
01:20:01
do our cap again, I don't know, a
01:20:02
different building, you have one week
01:20:05
and assume you're sufficiently prepared
01:20:07
for whatever the climb would be. What
01:20:09
would what would
01:20:09
>> So I'm allowed to do like cutting edge
01:20:11
futuristic things.
01:20:13
>> Yeah.
01:20:13
>> Oh, well then I'm like I don't know. I
01:20:15
mean the Burrish like it'd be insane.
01:20:17
But um but no uh like the the free
01:20:20
triple in Euseite is like the three
01:20:21
biggest walls in Euseite. Uh
01:20:24
>> free triple
01:20:24
>> the so it's LCAP, Halfdme, and Mount
01:20:27
Watkins. Mount Watkins is kind of like a
01:20:29
halfdome sized wall that's further up
01:20:31
valley. So it was the three biggest
01:20:32
walls in Euseite. So Tommy Caldwell and
01:20:34
I have free climbed the triple. The two
01:20:36
of us did it together with ropes, but we
01:20:37
like climbed the whole thing. And then
01:20:39
I've soloed the triple. So I've done all
01:20:41
three with ropes by myself. It was like
01:20:43
18 or 19 hours or something of climbing.
01:20:45
Um, but it's never been free sololed.
01:20:48
Uh, I've freestolled Haft individually
01:20:50
and I've free sololed Alcap
01:20:51
individually. No one's ever free soloed
01:20:53
Watkins. But the idea of doing all three
01:20:55
in a day would be like I think totally
01:20:57
like next generation achievement. There
01:20:59
are certain things like that where I'm
01:21:00
sort of like if I was starting over, if
01:21:01
I was like an 18-year-old who was like
01:21:02
trying to make it as a professional
01:21:03
climber nowadays and had a higher level
01:21:06
of skill than I do now and, you know,
01:21:07
basically was like trying to do this
01:21:09
again. There things like that that would
01:21:10
be sort of like the obvious next
01:21:12
generation challenge. free solo, all
01:21:14
three in the same day.
01:21:15
>> Yeah. Yeah, I'd probably take uh well,
01:21:18
it take a bit under 24 hours probably.
01:21:21
>> What is your training regimen to these
01:21:24
days? Is it go rock climbing a lot
01:21:26
today? I did a little workout in the
01:21:27
hotel gym this morning.
01:21:28
>> Your hands are quite different. I was
01:21:29
They're quite big hands.
01:21:31
>> Well, that's I mean, you know, I think
01:21:32
like a stonemason just like grinding
01:21:34
away their whole life. I see you. You
01:21:36
have I don't know if people can see that
01:21:37
on camera, but you it does look like you
01:21:39
have very um
01:21:41
wide fingers.
01:21:43
>> Yeah, my fingers uh have taken a lot of
01:21:45
abuse in their time
01:21:46
>> cuz I see you like putting them in in
01:21:48
between walls.
01:21:50
>> Yeah, crack climbing. It's like you
01:21:51
basically put your fingers into a crack
01:21:52
and then you torque them. And so like
01:21:53
the side to side pulling uh does sort of
01:21:56
make your connective tissue bigger.
01:21:57
>> And does that hurt?
01:21:59
>> Yeah, it hurts.
01:22:00
>> It I was wondering when you're going
01:22:01
uphel when you're doing it well with
01:22:02
good technique, it it's not that
01:22:03
painful. Well, it depends on the type of
01:22:04
rock, but some rock is kind of sharp and
01:22:06
kind of painful. Um, but yeah, this is
01:22:08
this goes back to strengthening your
01:22:10
what's the part called in your brain?
01:22:11
>> Anterior midsular cortex.
01:22:12
>> Yeah, exactly. That guy. I mean, that's
01:22:14
the thing is that even when done well,
01:22:16
climbing like it hurts your fingers and
01:22:17
toes, you know, crack climbing when
01:22:18
you're like jamming your toes into a
01:22:20
crack and you're torquing them side to
01:22:21
side and you're like wedging your
01:22:22
fingers in. I mean, when you're doing it
01:22:24
well, it has a pleasant feel of safety
01:22:27
to it cuz you can really like lock into
01:22:28
cracks and it feels comfortable and you
01:22:30
feel like you're swimming and you're
01:22:30
like, "This is beautiful." But when you
01:22:32
really come down to the sensations,
01:22:33
you're still crushing your bones into a
01:22:35
crack like a Star Wars.
01:22:37
>> When I look at this kind of photo
01:22:39
>> where you're It looks like you're
01:22:41
hanging by one and a half hands.
01:22:44
>> Yeah.
01:22:45
>> And you're going to fall to your death
01:22:46
if you if your grip isn't
01:22:48
>> sufficient. It makes me think you must
01:22:50
have the world's greatest grip strength.
01:22:52
>> Uh I definitely don't.
01:22:54
>> I mean, well, you have your your grip
01:22:55
then. You can find out
01:22:56
>> what's below you there in this photo.
01:22:58
Well, actually, so there is like a
01:22:59
sloping cliff thing below me. Uh, so I'm
01:23:02
actually only like 30 ft off the ground,
01:23:03
but if or 40 ft, but if you fell, you'd
01:23:05
bounce off and you'd go, you know,
01:23:07
basically to where it looks like down in
01:23:08
the valley floor down there.
01:23:09
>> Terrifying photo.
01:23:11
>> It's funny, actually. Have you you
01:23:12
you've seen Free Solo?
01:23:13
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:23:13
>> Do you remember the the camera guy that
01:23:15
like can't look? Uh, the guy that's like
01:23:17
shooting the long shot on the ground,
01:23:18
Mikey. He's a really good friend of
01:23:19
mine. I've done tons of things with him.
01:23:20
He was he shot the Taipei clown as well.
01:23:22
Um, Mikey was the photo assistant for
01:23:25
this photo. He was like holding the
01:23:26
photos and he did the whole shoot just
01:23:28
like
01:23:29
>> looking into the wall. Like he just
01:23:31
never looked at any of the things
01:23:32
happening. Like Jimmy Chin was taking
01:23:33
the photo and Mikey was like did all the
01:23:36
the rigging and the lights and
01:23:37
everything and Mikey did the whole shoot
01:23:39
just like looking into his armpit like
01:23:41
looking the other way. He was like I am
01:23:42
not part of this.
01:23:43
>> I would like to see his brain scan.
01:23:45
>> He was stressed but he I mean he's an
01:23:47
elite climber himself and he's he's
01:23:48
amazing but like basically watching free
01:23:50
souling is stressful and nobody wants to
01:23:51
do it if they don't have to. When is in
01:23:54
all your career, when is the moment
01:23:55
where you were most scared? Where you
01:23:56
thought maybe you had pushed it too far?
01:23:59
>> Oh, it's actually uh I've had several
01:24:01
moments, but it's actually mostly with
01:24:02
ropes on. That's the thing is that
01:24:03
because when you're freestyling, you
01:24:05
generally keep it within a healthy
01:24:06
margin or you practice ahead of time,
01:24:08
you know, basically because you're going
01:24:09
to die. You make sure that you can do
01:24:10
it. But when you have a rope on, you're
01:24:12
way more willing to push into the
01:24:14
unknown because you're kind of like,
01:24:15
surely I'll get some protection
01:24:16
eventually. I'll just keep looking. I'll
01:24:17
keep looking. And so like I've had I was
01:24:20
on an expedition to Antarctica actually
01:24:21
um in 2017 and did a bunch of climbing
01:24:24
that was very extreme but like with a
01:24:27
rope but it was you know it's Antarctica
01:24:29
it's really freaking cold conditions are
01:24:30
challenging the rock is crumbling
01:24:32
everything is scary and you just keep
01:24:33
hoping that it's going to get better and
01:24:34
it just keeps getting worse instead and
01:24:36
eventually you're sort of like because
01:24:38
the thing is having a rope on doesn't
01:24:39
mean anything unless you get good
01:24:41
protection which means you have to be
01:24:42
able to put gear into the rock and if
01:24:43
you can't find places to put gear into
01:24:45
the rock then you can go you know the
01:24:46
rope is 200 feet If you go 200 feet
01:24:48
without getting good gear, then you're
01:24:50
looking at taking a 400t fall before the
01:24:51
rope catches you. Uh, which is almost
01:24:54
certainly fatal, you know. I mean, if
01:24:55
you fall that far, even though the rope
01:24:57
will catch your corpse, you know, but
01:24:58
you're still just going to hit the wall
01:25:00
after 400 ft, like you're screwed. So,
01:25:02
anyway, my scariest experiences have all
01:25:03
been situations like that for the most
01:25:06
part. This is why I'm saying climbing,
01:25:08
you get scared a lot.
01:25:11
And our like that expedition we were
01:25:14
climbing basically day on, day off. Each
01:25:15
day we would go climb one of these crazy
01:25:17
spires and we'd have these experiences
01:25:18
where I'd be like so scared and then the
01:25:20
next day we would just sit in the tent
01:25:21
because it's Antarctica. It's like
01:25:23
really cold. You're in the cook tent and
01:25:24
I would basically just spoon Nutella all
01:25:26
day totally shell shocked like totally
01:25:28
like just completely traumatized and
01:25:29
then the and then you'd be like rested
01:25:31
enough and you go out the next day and
01:25:32
do it again and we just did like day on
01:25:34
day off of like full trauma fear for the
01:25:37
whole trip and then we climbed
01:25:39
everything in the range. It was amazing.
01:25:40
It was an incredible trip.
01:25:41
>> So you do get scared?
01:25:42
>> Yeah, I was so scared the whole time.
01:25:44
Are there any techniques that are proven
01:25:45
to be effective for you to deal with
01:25:46
that fear? Like people talk about breath
01:25:48
work and
01:25:49
>> yeah, take some deep breaths, try to
01:25:50
compose yourself. I mean, I try to stay
01:25:53
rational, you know, like, am I in
01:25:54
danger? Cuz sometimes, like in this case
01:25:56
in Antarctica, I am actually in danger.
01:25:58
Like, if I fall, I could die. Um, but
01:26:00
often times you feel you get those
01:26:02
feelings of fear and you're not actually
01:26:03
in danger. You just it's your mind
01:26:04
running away from you. And so sometimes
01:26:06
you can sort of rationally re in a
01:26:07
little bit where you're like, "No, I am
01:26:09
safe. The protection will hold me. The
01:26:10
rope is, you know, my gear is good." And
01:26:12
then you just take a deep breath and you
01:26:14
just carry on.
01:26:14
>> And do you visualize falling ever?
01:26:16
>> Oh yeah. I mean of course. Yeah. I mean
01:26:18
you have to understand what the
01:26:19
consequences will be because I mean that
01:26:22
type of visualization is also how you
01:26:24
can know when you're safe because like
01:26:26
if you ever open gear and you're trying
01:26:27
to visualize like if I fall am I going
01:26:29
to hit the ground or is the gear going
01:26:31
to catch me before I hit the ground? I
01:26:32
mean there often situations like that
01:26:33
where you're like if I fall am I going
01:26:34
to hit that ledge and break both my legs
01:26:36
or am I going to clear the ledge and
01:26:37
fall into free space in which case it's
01:26:39
totally safe. And so it helps to be able
01:26:42
to have a cleareyed visualization of,
01:26:44
you know, because most people visualize
01:26:45
the worst case, like if I fall, I'm
01:26:46
going to die. And you're like, well,
01:26:47
often times if you I'm talking about
01:26:49
with the rope, if you fall, you're going
01:26:51
to be fine. But it's important to know
01:26:53
the difference.
01:26:54
>> So you don't avoid the confrontation
01:26:56
with the negative outcomes.
01:26:58
>> No, because you're trying to avoid the
01:27:00
negative out like you have to think
01:27:01
about it because how else do you
01:27:03
mitigate that kind of stuff,
01:27:04
>> but you can't let that stop you taking
01:27:06
actions when the risk profile is okay.
01:27:08
>> Yeah. Exactly. I mean, this is like a
01:27:10
whole rant about risk-taking and
01:27:12
everything, but like I mean, that's the
01:27:14
thing is you want to be taking the risks
01:27:16
that you want to take. And it drives me
01:27:18
crazy that nobody else thinks about risk
01:27:19
in this way because think of all the
01:27:21
people that like go out partying every
01:27:23
weekend and they get like kind of buzzed
01:27:24
and they drive home and whatever. And
01:27:26
it's like they're taking all kinds of
01:27:27
risk that they're not actually choosing
01:27:29
to take. You know what I mean? Like
01:27:30
they're just choosing to go out and
01:27:31
party and have a good time, but then
01:27:33
they're like driving a little buzzed and
01:27:34
they're like, "No, it's fine." But
01:27:35
you're like, "No, obviously you're
01:27:36
taking a risk." or like you're putting
01:27:38
yourself into situations where you're
01:27:40
like in a vulnerable situation because
01:27:42
you're incapacitated because you're
01:27:43
drunk or whatever. And so, you know,
01:27:44
you're putting yourself at higher risk
01:27:46
for crime, things like that. And so,
01:27:48
you're taking risks, you just haven't
01:27:50
chosen to take those risks. I'm kind of
01:27:51
like, the thing with climbing is that
01:27:53
I'm choosing to take the risks. And I'm
01:27:54
pretty cleareyed about the risk that I'm
01:27:56
taking. Like, I mean, I'm not going to
01:27:58
say it's perfect, but for the most part,
01:27:59
I think I have a pretty good idea of
01:28:01
which aspects are dangerous, like when
01:28:02
the consequences are high, what will
01:28:04
happen if I do fall. You know, it's like
01:28:06
you try to think it all out as much as
01:28:07
you can. And I'm kind of like, how many
01:28:09
people in normal life actually think
01:28:10
through all the risks that they're
01:28:11
taking? And even totally sedentary
01:28:13
people who are like, "Well, I don't take
01:28:14
risk. I stay home and I play video
01:28:15
games." You're like, "No, you're at a
01:28:17
much higher risk of heart disease. Like,
01:28:18
you're going to die from other things."
01:28:19
You know, it's like, and you're still
01:28:20
going to freaking die either way. That's
01:28:23
okay. I'm done ranting. I'm sorry.
01:28:24
>> No, no, but it's really important
01:28:25
because you I think we are all taking
01:28:27
risks, but some of us aren't intentional
01:28:30
about the risks we're taking
01:28:31
essentially.
01:28:31
>> Well, that's exactly it. Like, even if
01:28:32
you take no risk, you're going to die.
01:28:34
you're taking a different set of risks.
01:28:36
And so people look at my life and
01:28:38
they're like, "Well, you're crazy.
01:28:39
You're such a risk taker." And I'm kind
01:28:40
of like, "Well, at least I'm taking the
01:28:41
risks that I'm choosing and I'm choosing
01:28:43
them very intentionally and I'm pretty
01:28:44
careful about them and I mitigate them
01:28:45
as much as I can." I'm kind of like,
01:28:47
"Well, can you say the same for the risk
01:28:48
that you're taking or, you know, I'm
01:28:50
sort of like the average person, I
01:28:51
think, doesn't think about risk as much
01:28:53
as they should."
01:28:54
>> And is there anything that you would
01:28:55
give them as a framework to help them be
01:28:56
more intentional about those risks? Is
01:28:58
there is it just
01:28:59
>> Well, it's like you're going to freaking
01:29:00
die either way, so choose the things
01:29:01
that you care about and then do them
01:29:03
well.
01:29:05
and do them well. Prepare.
01:29:07
>> Yeah. Execute. Like have a plan, you
01:29:10
know, but don't just like take risk
01:29:11
willy-nilly. Like don't just get drunk
01:29:13
and go out and do a thing, you know, cuz
01:29:15
like that's stupid. Like that's not the
01:29:16
risk you should be taking, you know?
01:29:18
Like don't put all your money on black
01:29:19
and just like hope, you know what I
01:29:20
mean? Like basically don't just like
01:29:22
roll the dice. Like don't let fate just
01:29:24
like roll the roll the dice with your
01:29:25
life. Like make choices.
01:29:27
>> And free soloing is, you know, there's a
01:29:29
bigger existential risk with no margin
01:29:31
for error. But um
01:29:33
>> but it's very intentional.
01:29:35
>> Very intentional. Drinking as as a risk
01:29:38
is like a volume knob. The more you do
01:29:39
it, the more the risk increases.
01:29:41
>> And the other one is kind of like an
01:29:42
on-off switch, which you can you do it
01:29:44
today. And
01:29:46
>> yeah. So grip strength.
01:29:48
>> I wouldn't be even a little bit
01:29:49
surprised if you can pull that more than
01:29:51
I can actually, but I mean we'll both
01:29:53
try.
01:29:53
>> Okay. This is a grip strength meter.
01:29:55
>> Um okay, so let's see. We're at zero. Um
01:29:56
kilograms would be extra small then. Uh,
01:29:59
I mean, the thing with these like, okay,
01:30:00
actually, let me just preface this with
01:30:01
like I've had tons of people be like,
01:30:03
"Well, surely you're going to break the
01:30:04
machine." I'm like, "No, because for
01:30:05
climbing, you you just have the strength
01:30:06
that you need to do the things that
01:30:08
you're trying to do."
01:30:08
>> And how much do you weigh?
01:30:09
>> Um, right now like 165.
01:30:12
>> 165,
01:30:12
>> which is actually basically the heaviest
01:30:13
I've ever been. Maybe 163 if I'm lucky
01:30:16
right now.
01:30:17
>> So, 165 lbs in kg is equivocal to 75 kg
01:30:22
roughly.
01:30:22
>> Yeah.
01:30:23
>> Okay. Go ahead.
01:30:27
49 or 50 49.9
01:30:31
more. It's just like
01:30:34
Yeah, 49. You know,
01:30:36
>> those are just kind of like it's just a
01:30:37
it's just a different thing. You know
01:30:38
what I mean? Like that's not climbing.
01:30:40
>> 49 kg in pounds is
01:30:44
108. Interesting.
01:30:45
>> Yeah, let's see yours though. But yeah,
01:30:47
like I said,
01:30:48
>> different arms.
01:30:48
>> Uh it's about the same with both hands.
01:30:50
It should be
01:30:55
>> 62.
01:30:55
>> Yeah. See, there you go.
01:30:57
>> I can't lift my body weight. Like
01:30:59
>> I might be able to like Yeah, I mean I
01:31:01
might be able to muster a little more in
01:31:03
it, but
01:31:04
>> 63 on that one.
01:31:05
>> Let me try again.
01:31:07
>> But like I don't I don't think uh Do you
01:31:09
work out? Like you do weights and stuff?
01:31:10
I
01:31:11
>> I lift dumbbells, but I'm not doing
01:31:12
anything grippy. I curl and stuff, but I
01:31:15
don't do anything grippy.
01:31:16
>> I know. I'm at 50 and a half.
01:31:17
>> How many pull-ups can you do?
01:31:19
>> Don't know. But I can. Yesterday I did
01:31:21
uh I did a couple one- arms like uh like
01:31:23
Yeah, I basically pull-ups.
01:31:24
>> Yeah.
01:31:25
>> Yeah. Which is very hard.
01:31:27
>> Yeah. I don't think I can do one arms.
01:31:29
>> Yeah. Well, that's the thing. That's why
01:31:30
grip strength stuff you're kind of like
01:31:31
nah. Or actually, so um like have you
01:31:33
done weighted pull-ups in a gym?
01:31:35
>> Weighted pull-ups? No, I just do I'll
01:31:37
just do my own body weight and I you
01:31:39
know I weigh a lot. So I'm like
01:31:41
deceptively heavy.
01:31:42
>> Really? Like
01:31:43
>> very dense?
01:31:44
>> Very dense. Cloat in water. No, like big
01:31:46
bones.
01:31:47
>> You just sink straight in the bottom.
01:31:48
How how much kilograms do you think I
01:31:50
weigh? I mean, in pounds, you'd know it.
01:31:51
But this is
01:31:51
>> Well, now I'm now I'm guessing. I don't
01:31:53
know. Like, now that you're saying that
01:31:54
you're big, I'm like I don't know, maybe
01:31:56
185 or something. What?
01:31:57
>> I'm 211.
01:31:58
>> Yeah. With actually So, that's another
01:32:00
thing with grip strength is like it
01:32:01
makes sense that your grip strength is
01:32:02
proportionally. I mean, you're like 25%
01:32:05
bigger than me.
01:32:06
>> Yeah.
01:32:06
>> Like, you know, basically.
01:32:08
>> Yeah.
01:32:08
>> So, it's like you would expect it to at
01:32:10
least 25% stronger right there just
01:32:12
because like if you can do body
01:32:14
weightight pull-ups, you're going to be
01:32:14
much stronger.
01:32:15
>> Yeah. Right.
01:32:16
>> We have um we have a closing tradition
01:32:18
on this podcast where the last guest
01:32:19
leaves a question for the next guest not
01:32:20
knowing who they're leaving it for.
01:32:23
>> And the question left for you is oh
01:32:27
what do you want to achieve in your life
01:32:28
outside of your mainline job that you
01:32:32
haven't yet achieved?
01:32:34
I don't know. I mean that seems there
01:32:35
basically two other avenues that I care
01:32:37
about in my life. Uh you know my family.
01:32:39
I want to be a good dad. I want to make
01:32:40
sure my kids grow up to be healthy,
01:32:43
welladjusted people that, you know, like
01:32:44
live their best lives. And then I have a
01:32:47
foundation that supports community solar
01:32:48
projects around the world. And I'd love
01:32:50
to see that thrive. I mean, basically, I
01:32:52
mean, you know, we give as much as we
01:32:53
can to to solar projects around the
01:32:55
world. And I'd love to see that do more.
01:32:58
>> On that point of your foundation, what
01:32:59
is what is the sort of the thesis there?
01:33:01
You want to for solar projects?
01:33:03
>> Yeah. Yeah. Solar it's basically energy
01:33:04
access around the world.
01:33:05
>> Okay.
01:33:05
>> Yeah. I think now we've given I don't
01:33:07
know over 13 million to something like
01:33:09
over 100 partners around the world.
01:33:10
Basically like small scale community
01:33:12
solar projects. So people getting access
01:33:13
to energy for the first time. Um
01:33:16
basically using solar for anything
01:33:17
ranging from light to you know say food
01:33:21
refrigeration to pumping water. I mean
01:33:23
whatever whatever people need energy for
01:33:25
which is basically everything.
01:33:27
13 more than 13 million across 130
01:33:30
projects in 30 countries impacting
01:33:32
650,000 people and creating 1,200 plus
01:33:36
jobs protected 15 million acres of
01:33:39
biodiverse forest as well. Yeah, some of
01:33:42
those things are sort of like the the
01:33:44
secondary and tertiary benefits where
01:33:45
it's like when you empower certain kinds
01:33:47
of communities then they're better able
01:33:48
to take care of their lands and things
01:33:50
like that. Some of that has to do with
01:33:51
indigenous sovereignty and things like
01:33:52
in the Ecuadorian Amazon and and places
01:33:54
where it's like when the local people
01:33:56
have power suddenly they can protect
01:33:58
their land from illegal logging, illegal
01:34:00
mining, things like that. And so then
01:34:02
you wind up having this knockoff like
01:34:03
environmental benefit that's like also
01:34:05
great in addition to the human aspect
01:34:07
where you're like, well, these people
01:34:08
are living better lives and it helps
01:34:10
save the planet.
01:34:11
>> And you're giving away roughly a third
01:34:12
of your wealth to cover the majority of
01:34:14
the foundation's overheads. So yeah,
01:34:17
I've been given roughly a third of my of
01:34:19
what I make every year uh since 2012.
01:34:22
And uh that's basically just sort of
01:34:24
coincidentally tracked with the overhead
01:34:26
for the foundation. So it just means
01:34:28
that anything that people contribute
01:34:29
goes straight to projects because I
01:34:30
basically cover all the staffing and
01:34:31
everything. And
01:34:32
>> how does how does one contribute to
01:34:33
that?
01:34:34
>> Uh honoundation.org is the easiest way
01:34:36
you can support directly. I mean you can
01:34:37
see all the projects that we're working
01:34:39
with
01:34:39
>> and donors can go there if they want to
01:34:40
contribute to this. So they can go to
01:34:42
the website. Okay. Well, I'll link the
01:34:43
website below and if anyone is
01:34:45
interested in continuing to support the
01:34:46
great work you're doing there. Um I'd
01:34:48
highly recommend they go and make a
01:34:49
donation. It's a it's also just a way I
01:34:51
think to give back to you as a person
01:34:53
for the inspiration you've given so many
01:34:55
of us.
01:34:56
>> I appreciate that,
01:34:57
>> you know.
01:34:58
>> Yeah. I mean to me the foundation has
01:34:59
always been my attempt at doing
01:35:01
something useful cuz like I love rock
01:35:02
climbing. I think it's so fun. But in
01:35:04
the grand scheme of things it doesn't
01:35:06
really matter in the world. And I feel
01:35:08
like the work that we're doing through
01:35:08
the Han Foundation, at least material
01:35:10
improves the well-being of of other
01:35:12
humans, you know, like it actually has a
01:35:14
real impact both for the environment and
01:35:15
for people. Well, I don't know, Alex. I
01:35:18
I think watching you climb Taipei and
01:35:20
watching the millions of people all
01:35:21
around the world climb Taipei was an
01:35:24
expansive moment for all of us because
01:35:26
it all it holds a mirror up to us in a
01:35:28
really inspiring way and goes, "What
01:35:30
obstacles can you overcome in your
01:35:32
life?" And
01:35:33
>> um the many many millions of people now
01:35:36
have that visual and sometimes it is an
01:35:39
absurd visual that does that and it's
01:35:40
most memorable like it etched into their
01:35:43
brains and that means that they in their
01:35:45
own life are looking for their own type
01:35:47
A1 ones or type A7s or type A 101's and
01:35:49
if you play that forward as like a
01:35:51
ripple in the ocean of how people are
01:35:52
going to strive and maybe live more
01:35:53
intentionally maybe maybe it does really
01:35:56
really matter. maybe the whole
01:35:58
conversation which was like my entire
01:35:59
Twitter feed for days and days and days
01:36:01
of people saying this is a miraculous
01:36:03
human achievement
01:36:06
it there's like that's the first half of
01:36:07
a sentence the other half of that
01:36:08
sentence which we never really hear is
01:36:10
like so now what can I do mhm and that
01:36:13
is a profound thing well that's
01:36:14
definitely the best frame like that's
01:36:17
the framing that I hope for and that's
01:36:18
you know but I think that's like the
01:36:21
best case scenario for my climbing and
01:36:23
like I I hope that that's how people
01:36:24
take it but I will say that the work
01:36:26
through the hauntation at least has a
01:36:27
direct material impact immediately and
01:36:29
you're kind of like oh you don't have to
01:36:30
hope for ripples or anything. You're
01:36:31
like well this person can now read after
01:36:32
dark for the first time ever and you're
01:36:34
like that is gamechanging. If anything
01:36:35
you know I've been talking a lot about
01:36:37
like action speaking louder than words
01:36:38
and I'm like yeah I hope to you know
01:36:40
like it's great if the climbing I do
01:36:42
inspires people like that's all good but
01:36:44
at some point you just do a direct thing
01:36:45
that actually helps people's lives too.
01:36:48
>> And you're doing both.
01:36:49
>> Yeah. Yeah. Aspiring too. Doing my best.
01:36:51
>> The tangible and the intangible.
01:36:55
>> Alex, thank you so much. Thank you.
01:36:56
Amazing conversation.
01:36:58
>> Thank you.
01:36:58
>> YouTube have this new crazy algorithm
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