00:00:00
in your time in the mafia what did you witness I'm going to be honest with you we're bringing in $910 million a week I
00:00:05
was arrested 18 times and I saw guys that died for the wrong reasons but I'll tell you one thing Steve you're not
00:00:10
going to want to hear this but it's the truth Michael Fran one of the highest earning mafia members turned
00:00:16
motivational speaker who is sharing the ruthless lessons he learned about business leadership and resilience so
00:00:23
there's two levels in that life you're either a racketeer or you're a gangster and I was a racketeer meaning was
00:00:30
elevating the family by making them money I had 18 companies defrauding the government out of tax bringing in $10
00:00:35
million a week was living a liftime in a jet playing at helicopter what was the most cash you ever saw 40 50 million in
00:00:42
cash in cash now you can learn so much from the mafia you know I give you an example the art of negotiation this is a
00:00:48
tremendous technique to get what you want I always want so here's what you have to do now you may be making all
00:00:54
this money but we have rules and you don't violate the rules because the consequences are severe was a that had
00:01:00
to kill his father and then a very dear friend of mine he did something that was total violation of our life and he ended
00:01:06
up getting killed but the one thing that really hurt me bad my dad had a powerful position in the mafia and he betrayed me
00:01:13
that was rough Steve the thing is I've done a lot of bad things in my life but it's not the path that I wanted to take
00:01:19
I realized I got to get away from this like you don't walk away from this life we're not allowed to do that when does
00:01:25
it all come crashing down for you
00:01:32
this is a sentence I never thought I'd say in my life um we've just hit 7 million subscribers on YouTube and I
00:01:37
want to say a huge thank you to all of you that show up here every Monday and Thursday to watch our conversations um
00:01:44
from the bottom of my heart but also on behalf of my team who you don't always get to meet there's almost 50 people now
00:01:49
behind the dire of a CEO that work to put this together so from all of us thank you so much um we did a raffle
00:01:55
last month and we gave away prizes for people that subscribed to the show up until 7 million sub subscribers and you
00:02:00
guys love that raffle so much that we're going to continue it so every single month we're giving away money can't buy
00:02:06
prizes including meetings with me invites to our events and ,000 gift vouchers to anyone that subscribes to
00:02:12
the DI SE there's now more than 7 million of you so if you make the decision to subscribe today you can be one of those lucky people thank you from
00:02:19
the bottom of my heart let's get to the [Music] conversation
00:02:26
Michael who were you who was
00:02:31
I interesting question I um you know I have to start with this
00:02:38
because you you just came right off the bat and asked me a question that I don't want to say stumped me but
00:02:45
maybe in a way did in the same way that Jordan Peterson did I'll tell you why
00:02:50
Jordan said to me he said Michael you spent 20 years in that life obviously you did some things that were not good I
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said yeah he well how'd you do that and I said you know Jordan when I had to do something
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that I was uncomfortable with I kind of stepped out of myself I believe took
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care of business and then stepped back in so he looked to me and he said well
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how do you know who the real Michael is the guy that stepped out or the guy that's sitting here in front of me
00:03:22
now I that's a good question Jordan I said but uh I've been this guy for the last
00:03:30
almost 30 years so hopefully this is the guy so you know who am I I mean I'm a
00:03:36
guy that uh you know at a point in time in my life I was I was on the right track love
00:03:44
my dad very much and as result of that I followed him into this life to try to help him out he had a 50-year prison
00:03:50
sentence and I thought the only way to help him and he thought the same was to really get on the street and do some of
00:03:57
the work that was necessary to try to overturn a conviction that he got wrongful conviction by the way so I
00:04:04
became that other guy that was able to I was going to be a doctor I was my I was a Premed student when my dad got this
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50-year sentence so um but then I just I mean I
00:04:16
fell into that life and I I thought I did a pretty good job while I was there and I acclimated to it pretty pretty you
00:04:24
know easily when someone thinks about you joining the mafia they assume assume
00:04:29
that your home life must have been a certain way you must have had a really really rough up early upbringing is that
00:04:35
the case you know um I had a very strict mother I mean she was 16 when I was
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born and we had a very turbulent life because of my father's involvement in that life my father was an extremely
00:04:50
high-profile guy at that time major Target of law enforcement so from the
00:04:56
time I was four or five years old my dad was in and out of jail going on trial
00:05:02
and we lot of a lot of turbulence police around us all the time so I witnessed all that was part of that I don't know
00:05:08
if that contributed to you know who I am now I I don't know
00:05:14
I mean but it certainly I mean it had an effect on me at that point in time I
00:05:21
hated the police I hated the government I hated anything about law enforcement because I saw them as the enemy the way
00:05:26
they you know were harassing my dad harassing my family at least in my view at that point so it did shape you know
00:05:33
my my world view of those people at that time and they were parked outside your house I read they uh we had six or seven
00:05:41
different agencies parked around our house and every time we left there was a parade of law enforcement Vehicles
00:05:47
following us I mean it was that severe with my dad uh I've never seen anything
00:05:53
like that quite honestly you know other people have had surveillance but I guess because I grew up and I witnessed I was
00:05:58
part of it but it was so intense with him it really was did you know why they were there and did you know what your
00:06:03
dad was doing you know it was hard not to although he never sat down with me and said to me this is what I'm all
00:06:10
about it was B basically from other people from what I read and what I witnessed um so yeah I mean I knew what
00:06:17
he was about but I thought it was a good thing you know CU you know his his his
00:06:22
friends came to the house to me they were like Uncle Joe Uncle this Uncle that good people you know we'd go out
00:06:27
together so I thought it was a good good thing at that time what was he about my
00:06:33
dad yeah yeah very charismatic guy you know a good father I mean he wanted the
00:06:40
best for me he didn't want me in this life originally wanted me to go to school be a doctor get an education stay
00:06:45
off the street that was his initial desire for me um he was a good husband to my mother
00:06:53
I thought at that time but you know he had that other side of him that once or
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twice growing up up I kind of witnessed and I saw there was something else you know with it what did you witness you
00:07:06
know I'll never forget uh it was really two things that that happened I was he was taking me up my my dad was involved
00:07:13
in the music business so he was taking me into Manhattan to meet with some of the people you know just his daily work
00:07:19
and along the way he had to stop and he had to meet with somebody and I was in the car and two of his guys that I knew
00:07:26
very well with with my dad they were talking to this guy in a convers ation got very heated and I see my dad really
00:07:32
angry never saw him like that before and uh Steve I'm I'm not kidding at least this was a kid's impression I was young
00:07:39
he just picked that guy up by like his throat and had him up against the wall and I saw the guy was horror strick and
00:07:45
I I didn't I never saw my dad like that before cuz he didn't he didn't hit us or anything as kids you know had brothers
00:07:51
and sisters he didn't treat us that my mom was tough my mom forget it she didn't spare the Rob but my my dad was
00:07:57
not so to see him like that I said wow there is really another side of him you
00:08:02
know Street side of him you said there was another experience another experience this was it was kind of funny
00:08:08
but in a way it wasn't we had a carpenter that was working in our house and he was kind of a his name was S I
00:08:14
never forget a big guy huge guy and uh he would never finish anything on time
00:08:19
the carpentry my dad would hire him because he probably didn't have to pay him much right and my mom was always on
00:08:26
him you know guy that comes he don't finish the job and all that and came to the house once and my dad just just went
00:08:32
off on him punched him like in the house and knocked the guy out you know in front of all of us we were kind of
00:08:38
surprised but he said don't blame me your mother's nagging me too much I can't take it you know it was one of
00:08:43
those things so those as a young person those were the two things that I really witnessed with him those were Clues
00:08:50
those were clues of something else those were a window into his other life mhm
00:08:56
and what was his other life what was the reality of his other life as you've come to understand it well another thing and
00:09:02
this this it's amazing how you can remember things sometimes at a young age but you can't really put it together I I
00:09:09
have to go back the first real incident that I had is um I was probably four years old and we were living in Brooklyn
00:09:17
but my dad had moved us out me and my mom to Long Island where my grandparents were we were living in their house for a
00:09:23
while and I didn't see my dad for a couple of days he's gone and then one morning he comes in and my dad had a
00:09:30
heavy beard he hadn't shaved and uh his right-hand man was just standing out on the porch kind of
00:09:37
standing guard and my dad came in hugged my mother my mother was a little upset she was crying then he came over and
00:09:43
hugged me I was sitting on the step and my grandmother's house I'm saying what this what was this all about he was
00:09:49
there for about a half an hour and then he left well what I didn't find out till later on our family the Columbo family
00:09:56
was at War at that point and so my dad was not at home it's kind of dangerous to be at home and you know it lasted for
00:10:03
a while and I didn't know what that meant at that time you know it's you you
00:10:09
look back and you put these things together later on so really I would say it was those
00:10:14
three incidents but look my dad was a you know he was a a captain in that life and then an under boss in that life so
00:10:21
he had a very high position powerful position a lot of people around him a lot of guys who were subordinate to him
00:10:27
and uh you know he was big time in that life he was a captain and an under boss
00:10:32
yeah I have been trying to understand the structure of a mafia family so I printed off this to try and
00:10:40
understand it from what I from what I could see and I'll put this on the screen for anyone that's interested and pin it below is that is that somewhat
00:10:46
accurate in terms of the structure of a Mafia Family yeah yeah that's
00:10:53
it these are uh this is the true rankings and that's the uh I mean
00:10:59
there's a boss and an under under boss and the consiliary is kind of an advisor to the boss and then you have the compor
00:11:06
Jes is the real term for it or capos and they are uh they're kind of the street
00:11:12
bosses they're in elevated position and then you have the soldiers which is the first official rank when you get made
00:11:18
the term is made the night that you take the oath and you become an official member of that life your rank as a
00:11:26
soldier and um and the associates are guys that are around us but never taking
00:11:31
the oath they're not full-fledged members they're just Associates so from the bottom up the bottom level is the
00:11:37
associates I'm going to repeat this back to you to see make sure I've got it um and they're not they haven't taken the Earth so they've not become what you
00:11:43
call made men correct the soldiers are the the first level that have taken the oath correct um and they report into
00:11:51
capos capos and the capos reporting the under boss capos can go right to the
00:11:56
boss also yeah and then then there's the boss above the under boss yes he's the
00:12:02
boss he's the official ruler of the family and your dad became an an under
00:12:07
boss under boss yes so he was one below the the boss yes and you mentioned your family had a certain name what was that
00:12:14
name Columbo Columbo yeah what is the because I think I need to understand the kind of history of the mafia to
00:12:19
understand what Columbo is yes well you know originated in Italy obviously
00:12:26
Sicily and um it was originally just a a group in Italy that baned together to
00:12:32
protect their towns from Marauders that were coming in and and you know um doing
00:12:37
damage in the in the towns and the cities and eventually for some reason
00:12:43
they started becoming a little bit of a criminal you know body and then they migrated many of them to New York you
00:12:50
know back in 1901 190 I think the earliest in the late late 19 I think it
00:12:56
was maybe in 1885 or something like that was when they first started coming here
00:13:01
to the United States came legally went through Ellis Island and came in Legally and originally the guys that
00:13:08
came in they were just kind of praying on their own people in in the cities that you know they uh they got
00:13:15
into and you know I can go through all of this but uh you go back to the days of Al Capone I'm sure you know you've
00:13:22
heard that name uh who originally came from Brooklyn then went out to Chicago and I I always say this they
00:13:30
were obviously involved in criminal activity you know loan shocking lending money at usurious rates extorting some
00:13:37
of the shop owners you know for protection getting money out of them a little bit of the gambling business but
00:13:43
what really happened I always say this it was the government the United States government that made the mafia strong in
00:13:50
the United States and when did they do that with prohibition because it was then that the
00:13:56
guy re the guys realized hey people want this they want to drink the government
00:14:01
is uh you know Banning it but we're going to allow them to have to have it
00:14:06
and so they started to create they got into the illegal booze business basically and to give you the extent of
00:14:13
that in New York state alone there were 36,000 speak easys which were illegal
00:14:19
bars at the time 36,000 in New York alone and the mafia controlled all of them and people wanted it and they gave
00:14:26
it to them and um it was extremely lucrative I mean you're talking you know
00:14:32
in today's money billions of dollars and that's what started to create this
00:14:37
organization and then in the 40s lucky luchano who again came from uh from
00:14:43
Italy um saw that a lot of the guys were starting to war among each other it was
00:14:48
always power and control and money and he said we're not going to exist we're not going to survive like this we have
00:14:53
to become an organization a business and he's the one that created the Mafia
00:14:59
commission and split it up into families actually at that time there were nine families Nationwide and they were bosses
00:15:08
of each family and that's how this whole structure came about it was in the 40s was actually him Myer Lansky who played
00:15:15
a significant role even though maril Lansky was not a maid guy because he was Jewish and you have to be of Italian
00:15:21
descent but he was a right-hand man um to Lucky Lano and that's when the mafia
00:15:28
really came to could be here in the United States so the mafia was this one organization and then lucky luchano did
00:15:35
you say yes he split it into lots of families correct were those families actually related by blood in any way no
00:15:43
was it just when you say split it into families was he did he essentially just appoint lots of CEOs to run different parts of the same organization yeah it
00:15:50
was called a family I mean you could have called it a group or whatever you wanted to call it but we we called it
00:15:56
families and uh no they weren't necessarily related um and somebody emerged in that
00:16:03
group as the top guy and he officially appointed them as the boss and in order to have a seat on the
00:16:10
commission which was the ruling body of all of these families Nationwide you had to be the boss or representative of your
00:16:16
family that the boss designated and you can then sit on the commission and the commission allegedly um created policy
00:16:24
for all of the families Nationwide and that's how it worked and allegedly
00:16:30
allegedly because you know I I got to understand that the commission was like the United Nations sounds good you know
00:16:37
and they they're going to create policy but really you can't tell a boss of his own family what to do he has total
00:16:44
autonomy so it sounded good and sometimes the commission will make a policy that people will respect but if
00:16:51
the boss of that family doesn't want to they don't have to and how big were the families in New York we had five
00:16:58
families and in each of the uh total total made guys in those families was
00:17:04
about 750 guys you know the Gambino family had about 250 guys and this is
00:17:10
through my era Genevie family 250 guys Bano family Columbo family lucases we
00:17:17
had about aund and some OD each we were the smaller families uh but you had total about 750 made men guys that
00:17:24
actually took the oath and then we had a lot of Associates you know hundreds so
00:17:29
we had a we had a big presence especially in New York and did the families fight each other even in New
00:17:34
York were there arguments amongst families prior to the 40s yes when the
00:17:40
commission was created yes they would go to war among each other once uh that commission was created there was no more
00:17:47
Wars among the families anytime there was a war it was a Civil War and it was always a war for power our family the
00:17:54
Columbo family we were one of the more violent Waring families we had three Wars during my lifetime in the columbos
00:18:01
and it was always for power who wanted to be the boss you don't have elections somebody wants to take over it's a power
00:18:07
struggle and however it turns out it turns out within the family within the family now other families could say okay
00:18:14
we throw our support behind you but not with Manpower it's you know whoever you're rooting for at that point but um
00:18:21
no things were solved you know once the commission came into place and the family things were solved uh amicably
00:18:27
usually you know peacefully but there was always a lot of disagreements there was a lot of sitd downs you know to
00:18:34
straighten things out we had a lot of that you know I was very active in that life and I was going to sit down every
00:18:40
other day you know trying to resolve something either one of my crazy guys got in trouble it was a business
00:18:46
situation uh it was a lot of that what is a sit down I was reading about this
00:18:52
uh in your work and I I found it quite interesting because I think sometimes in business as a CEO maybe we should
00:18:58
emulate this idea of having a sit down we have a lot of meetings and a lot of emails and stuff like that but seems like you have a pure way of dealing with
00:19:04
things we do a sit down was the way we resolved everything everything we sat
00:19:09
down they were structured when I say structured you had normally the boss was in control of that it was a serious one
00:19:17
rather than two captains or copos getting together you had to bring the boss in uh he was the final rule what he
00:19:24
says goes like it or not and there was rules if you're a ma guy and I'm a made guy and we're arguing over business uh
00:19:32
issue and you're lying through your teeth I can't call you a liar if I call you a liar I lose the argument
00:19:38
automatically because I disrespected you you have to be respectful the meetings
00:19:44
so if a guy's lying you got to figure out how to let the boss understand that without calling him a liar and then at
00:19:50
the end of this um you know you uh whatever decision the boss makes that's it there's no appeals there's no nothing
00:19:58
shake hands get up and you leave and that's the final ruling so you mentioned this I wrote a book uh was actually a
00:20:04
business book I'll make you an offer you can't refuse hoer Collins was the publisher after they heard about that
00:20:09
they said we're not having any more meetings from now on they're all sit Downs he said that's it you know because
00:20:15
it was a lot more efficient what kind of things would get resolved in a in a sit down normally business disputes um and
00:20:23
then sometimes quite honestly you know you know look that's a a life serious
00:20:29
consequences and if somebody violated policy made a mistake to the point where he was going to pay for it seriously you
00:20:36
had to sit down to decide his fate basically people speaking for him people
00:20:42
speaking against him and then the boss would make the final ruling so that could be you know a serious sit down
00:20:49
could be a business matter so if in the case of deciding someone's fate would
00:20:54
the person you were deciding their fate be would they be sat there no no so it'
00:20:59
be someone on basically speaking yes on behalf of one side of that decision
00:21:05
correct things like whether this person should live correct have have you ever
00:21:10
been in a sit down where people were discussing if someone should live and you've seen it go both ways
00:21:17
yes your father got sent to prison when you were 19 yeah well he finally he was
00:21:23
in and out before that but he started to do uh time on that 50-year prison since
00:21:29
I was 19 how did that change your
00:21:34
life you through everything I read you really loved this man I loved him he's a
00:21:40
good dad and he he wanted the best for me at that point and he taught me great things I mean he he really did and you
00:21:48
know the one advantage I had in my life and again taught to me by my dad he always said Son be a good listener
00:21:55
listen before you speak you know be careful don't you know don't don't speak
00:22:00
out of turn he always told me to be a good listener so the person I listened to the most was him and he taught me
00:22:07
well in that regard so I had a lot of love and respect for my dad and um when
00:22:12
he went away it was devastating because he was 50 years old when he went into prison fig he had 50 on top of that he'd
00:22:18
never come out of prison alive that's what we thought you know so it was it was uh it was tough I can almost still
00:22:26
see the emotion in you when you talk about him going away to prison yeah it
00:22:31
was a defining moment in my life because you know I I realized things were going to dramatically change I mean I was the
00:22:39
oldest with my mom had three younger brothers and sisters and um I knew I had to play a
00:22:45
role in that you know and and taking care of my mom because my dad when he went away he said listen I'm entrusting
00:22:51
the family to you he said you know be a good son and take care of your brothers
00:22:57
and sisters take care of your mother so I mean I had that responsibility um and I was doing that
00:23:03
anyway because during many of my dad's trials my mom would go and I would one time he was you know tried couple
00:23:10
hundred miles away from us they moved the venue to Albany New York and I'm in Long Island so my mom would be away for
00:23:16
three or four days at a time with my dad I'd be watching the kids and so I mean I took on that rule early on but then when
00:23:22
he went away it became a lot more you know um serious
00:23:30
your life when he went away you were studying to be a doctor be a doctor
00:23:35
yeah it's hard to imagine the sort of turn of turn of events that happen in your life at that point when you're
00:23:41
studying to be a doctor your dad goes to prison and it ends up changing the trajectory of your life it ends up
00:23:46
swaying you towards the life he had just come from and you say that he was wrongly
00:23:52
imprisoned my dad was framed on that case framed yeah 100% I'll take it to my grave Steve he was uh he was supposedly
00:24:01
uh masterminding a nationwide string of bank robberies and um you know when my my dad
00:24:09
first went away I I I was with him in the visiting room we were in the jail
00:24:15
and I looked at him I said Dad bank robbery and he looked at me and he said son I'm innocent I'm not a bank robber I
00:24:21
didn't order these bank robberies she said I was framed government framed me my dad had never lied to me to that
00:24:27
point and he saidwe got to work to overturn this conviction and why did I believe
00:24:33
first of all he never lied to me so I believed it but the four witnesses that testified against him were all drug
00:24:39
addicts my dad my entire life preached against drugs to me he used to make up
00:24:45
stories Parables to to show me the dangers of drugs all of us though all
00:24:51
the kids so that we would never get involved he hated anything to do with drugs always spoke about it so I I never
00:24:57
saw my dad as a hypoc in that regard he wouldn't associate with these people no let do bank robberies with them so it
00:25:03
made it very real and so it angered me in some ways but it motivated me to say
00:25:09
you know what I can't let my dad die in here you know and then at the same time
00:25:14
I was getting very close to Joe Columbo who was the boss of our family Columbo family and uh he kind of took me under
00:25:20
his wing because you know he uh obviously my dad was his under boss and I started to meet a lot more of
00:25:27
my dad dad's friends and they would say to me mikee what are you doing going to school if you don't help your father out he's going to die in prison so I was
00:25:34
very it affected me in a big way I said I can't let that happen and even though
00:25:40
my dad did not want me involved in the life but I went to visit him in the visiting room lorth Penitentiary and I
00:25:45
said Dad I'm not going to school anymore if I don't help you out you're going to die in here and we kind of argued about it because he he was disappointed he
00:25:52
didn't want that for me he knew the life was tough he didn't want it for me he want it for any of his kids and uh but I
00:25:59
was pretty headstrong as a kid and I said Dad My Mind Is Made Up I lost interest in school I'm not going to go I
00:26:04
said it's it you're wasting your breath and basically he looked at me Steve and you know and and I don't ever want to be
00:26:11
offensive to the audience but he looked at me and he said okay but if you're going to be on the street then I want you on the street the right way in his
00:26:17
mind the right way was to become a member of his life so he looked at me and he said I got to ask you a question very serious I said go ahead he said '
00:26:25
if you ever had to kill anybody could you do it and I said dad under the right circumstances yeah I could do it he said
00:26:32
' that's the right answer he said to me then he looked at me and he said' go home somebody's going to be in touch
00:26:37
with you do what you told that's all he said he didn't break it down he didn't said this is what's required of you
00:26:44
nothing because you know Steve that's a secret life you're not supposed to talk about that life with anybody outside of
00:26:50
it my dad wouldn't violate that policy even with me his own son he just figured okay kids got it in them go home and do
00:26:56
what you're told and I didn't question him I said okay Dad this is what you want just point me in the right
00:27:02
direction I mean that's the kind of bond that we had together at that point and uh and I left there and that's how
00:27:08
things started for me when you answered that question your dad asked you were you telling the truth yeah I mean
00:27:16
obviously I'd never been in that situation but I thought about it and I don't I don't remember what rolled
00:27:21
through my mind at that point did I say to myself well this is the answer my dad wants or did I say to myself yeah I
00:27:29
could really do it as I sit here now all these years later I can't honestly answer
00:27:34
that um but the answer was yes he didn't um he didn't ever try and
00:27:41
stop you or did he did he ever try and persuade you out of join joining the
00:27:47
mafia no I mean prior to that point that's not what he wanted for me but
00:27:53
once I made up my mind I think there was a feeling of Pride or joy in my dad I
00:27:58
kind of seen it in him and that you know once I did become a maid guy he was he
00:28:03
was overjoyed he was thrilled how did he or anyone else think that you joining the mafia would help
00:28:10
him simple needed money for attorneys I had kind of a business head
00:28:15
my dad knew that we needed to track down Witnesses and people that were involved in the case that could you know say this
00:28:22
was a frame up and that's exactly what I did I mean I went after all of these Witnesses uh to try to find them and get
00:28:29
them to recant that testimony I worked with the lawyers as a result of that and eventually did get you know three of the
00:28:35
witnesses to recant their testimony gave them lie detective test proved they lied at the trial that the FBI had gone along
00:28:42
with the story that they met up because my father was such a they wanted him so bad they really did and if you go back
00:28:49
to the 60s and you look at the amount of media attention he had you know you wouldn't believe it but um so the FBI at
00:28:56
that time I believe was licit in in this Frame up because they might have known
00:29:02
that these guys were lying one of the one of the witnesses told me um that
00:29:07
when they agreed to cooperate with the government they were going to put these
00:29:13
bank robberies or to make the Mastermind somebody else and they actually did guy
00:29:18
by name of Tony pcei they said well he was the original guy that told us how to do these bank robberies and then when
00:29:24
the FBI told him this came right from the witness the FBI told him well that C you some time off but I ain't going to go that far we don't care about Tony
00:29:31
polii a guy like Sunny Frances that would matter and then they went and they
00:29:36
concocted this story because Steve the thing is they committed all the bank robberies every one of them and they
00:29:43
they described it in great detail at the trial and all they said was that Sunny
00:29:48
Frances ordered them at a meeting that we had once at the Q motor in and um why did they pick the night
00:29:55
for the meeting because my dad was under constant surveillance and the FBI told them what day my dad
00:30:02
would be available to that wouldn't have an alibi he probably sitting at home wouldn't have an alibi to say that he
00:30:09
wasn't at that meeting so they structured this whole thing and many people afterwards have said Sunny would
00:30:15
never associate with these type of guys so you know all those things came
00:30:20
together and and I really like I said look I went to Crime I went to jail for a crime I was guilty of pled guilty did
00:30:25
my time uh but this particular ular crime that my dad did I'd take it to my grave he he was not he was no bank
00:30:32
robber was your dad a good guy I thought so I mean yeah listen
00:30:38
people liked him my dad was very well-liked objectively as you sit here today do you think he was a net positive
00:30:45
listen my D look I'm going to tell you this you know the word on the street from the FBI my dad was involved in 3035
00:30:53
murders now he never admitted that to me about anyone in particular he was
00:30:58
indicted for one murder and he was acquitted in that case found not guilty but my dad was he was a tough guy
00:31:05
there's no question so if he was involved in 35 matters as the FBI
00:31:12
suggest do you think he was better off behind bars what I'm getting at here really is
00:31:17
if they framed him was it a net benefit to society that they framed
00:31:22
him well you know Steve let me let me I know there's going to be a tough one but let me let me tell you how I
00:31:31
think the the the right and just side of me the legally just side of me says that
00:31:37
the government is never allowed to break the law to uphold the law because if you
00:31:43
allow that to happen then it falls into monarchy and people are not protected because if they do it against Sunny
00:31:49
Frances they can do it against anybody so I believe strictly the government has enough tools and weapons to get people
00:31:56
the right way uh and they do 96 97% of the time they shouldn't be allowed to
00:32:02
violate the law to go after a criminal that's my my feeling on it now another
00:32:08
thing is this people think when we take an oath the oath of omera it's an oath to stay silent it's not an old to lie
00:32:15
steal cheat and kill does that happen as part of that light yes but we're told
00:32:21
straight out now try to understand the thinking here you come into that life you told us straight out we have rules
00:32:28
you don't ever violate another man's wife daughter sister girl never that'll cause you to die during my era we
00:32:36
weren't allowed to deal with drugs you deal with drugs you get caught you die you maybe do some other things you're
00:32:42
not honest with people you disrespect somebody you hit another ma guy you
00:32:47
die now we understand that and they tell you your best friend may be the one that
00:32:53
pulls the trigger because the life comes before anything that's it you know don't violate the rules that's how we maintain
00:32:59
control in this life that's how we existed for a 100 years and that's how it's going to stay so now you're saying
00:33:06
okay we all agreed to this we all admitted it if one of us decides to
00:33:12
violate the policy of the law and we get caught well we understand the
00:33:17
consequences so that's how I looked at it and that's how I Justified it now
00:33:23
does that say you can go out and start to do random killings no if the boss tells you to go kill somebody because he
00:33:30
doesn't like him and you do it that's not right but if we kill our own and you
00:33:35
know you hear a lot of times Well we only kill our own well we don't only kill our own but if we only kill our own
00:33:42
knowing that we made that choice well then okay I I kind of I kind of get it
00:33:47
in a way even though murder is murder and it's a crime and it's sinful and I understand that but that's how you
00:33:53
justify it but it wasn't the case that you only killed your own well for some of us it was and for
00:34:00
others it was not and I've seen both sides of that you've never talked
00:34:06
about having to kill someone have you no why is that it's it's a it's just not a subject
00:34:15
I care to get into you know I uh
00:34:20
listen I like to be as honest as I possibly can because I am a Christian and you don't want to lie to people
00:34:28
but it's not something I want to talk about I was wondering because when I
00:34:33
when I read that I thought maybe it's because you know there's some might be legal retribution maybe it's because you
00:34:39
know it's not nice for people to hear about maybe it's because there's still some kind of like rule where you can't
00:34:45
say anything but I wondered why maybe it's all of the above I don't know well you know Steve look there guys there's a
00:34:52
lot of guys on the street now and if you go on YouTube You'll see a number of them and they've admitted to murder that
00:34:57
they were involved in these are made guys and they've admitted to it and many of them had struck a deal with the
00:35:03
government they had immunity for the crimes they committed even murder I mean the government give you immunity for murder if you want to uh if they want
00:35:11
you to cooperate and help them out it's amazing but they'll do it and so they have immunity they could talk about
00:35:17
their crimes I didn't cooperate to that level at all I don't have immunity for anything that I've done in the past you
00:35:24
know and listen you know our laws here in the United States have you were standing next to somebody when they
00:35:29
murdered somebody else you're there you could you could be charged for murder the same way to them so you know I'm
00:35:35
saying I have a was in that position I'm just saying that's the law so you know why talk about it number one and number
00:35:41
two murder is ugly you know it's it's ugly and you don't ever want to talk
00:35:47
about it I mean I don't if I were to do something like that I wouldn't be proud of it I'm not trying to throw my chest
00:35:54
out and say hey look what I could do guys go to war they kill people all all the time you know in defense of our country or defense of so I mean it's not
00:36:02
like oh God you know nobody I mean murder happens every single day MH who
00:36:08
wants to talk about it some people do I know not me you got closer to the mafia when your
00:36:15
father was sent down and this was the point where you decided not to go to school the boss of the Columbo family
00:36:23
yes brings you close brings you under his wing um do do you have to do some kind of training or something to join
00:36:28
the MAF is there any oh you do oh yeah well when you commit here's what happened I leave there a captain in a
00:36:35
family picked me up and took me to see the boss now unfortunately Joe Columbo was assassinated he was shot seriously
00:36:42
wounded he lingered for about seven years and then he died as a result of these wounds so a new boss took over and
00:36:48
he's he's passed away now and I sat with him this was about two weeks after my father sent word downtown that he was
00:36:54
proposing me to be part of that life because you can't just go up to somebody say I'd like to join somebody has to
00:37:00
propose you vouch for you say you have what it takes there's a lot of nepotism in that life a lot of fathers brought
00:37:06
their sons in their nephews whatever so in my case it was my dad that proposed me and so I sat with the boss and he
00:37:13
said to me here's the deal you want to become a member of our life your father sent the message is that true and I said
00:37:19
yes he well here's the deal from now on 24 hours a day seven days a week you're on call to serve this family the Columbo
00:37:26
family that means if your mother is sick and she's dying you're at her bedside we
00:37:32
call you to service you leave your mother you come and serve us from now on we're number one in your life before anything and everything when and if we
00:37:39
feel you've deserved this privilege this honor to become a member will let you know that's it and do you accept that I
00:37:46
said yes I do and so over the next two and a half years I was in like a recruit pledge period where I had to do anything
00:37:53
and everything I was told to do prove myself worthy could have been something very menial a lot of discipline in that
00:38:00
life a lot of authority a lot of alleged respect you had a meeting at 8:00 you weren't there at 7:30 you were late can
00:38:06
never be late in that life I don't care what the situation is you had a meeting at at 8:00 if there was traffic and you
00:38:12
were concern come the night before and sleep in the car can never be late no excuses you know Drive the boss to a
00:38:18
meeting sit in the car 3 four five hours got forbid you leave you go to the restroom get a newspaper he comes out
00:38:24
you're not there oh my gosh we could have had trouble you you were the getaway driver you weren't there I know
00:38:30
I did that once and I paid the price you know for it that's very serious stuff you paid the price well paid the price
00:38:36
in other words I got a real good tongue lashing I'll tell you you know um you know just stuff like that they kind of
00:38:42
put you on the shelf for two weeks you know to make you understand the seriousness of what you did so you never
00:38:47
do it again you never repeat your mistakes in that life if you're smart you want to if you want to number one
00:38:53
want to survive and number two you want to move up you never repeat your mistakes so so you know things like that
00:38:58
and then look I'm going to be honest with you you know as as honest as I possibly can it's a violent life at
00:39:03
times if you're part of the life in some shape or form you're part of the violence and uh if anybody tells you
00:39:10
differently they're either not being honest or they weren't a made member of that life and that's just how it goes
00:39:15
why' you say that because you said you said demial and then you said it's a violent life are you are you saying that
00:39:21
in that sort of probationary two years you had to do both of those things you had to be involved in the viol and do
00:39:27
the menal stuff let's put it this way they got to have enough faith in you that you can be capable of doing
00:39:34
whatever it is they tell you to do they have to they have to understand that and feel that because if they don't
00:39:40
feel that you're not going anywhere that that's it so during that time you're
00:39:46
going to be tested and you were tested yeah when
00:39:51
when they made you pledge that if your mother was dying and you were at her bedside and they called you and asked you to do something you'd leave
00:39:58
would you have left if your mother was dying back then I mean I might have I mean you know I was a I was a play by
00:40:04
the rule guy you know I uh you know I I was very fortunate that
00:40:10
I had a great teacher in my dad he was a student and master of the life and so
00:40:16
and I was like a sponge I absorbed whatever my dad told me I listened and you know some of the things that he told
00:40:22
me were were right so I might have at the time I'm going to be honest with you I mean I I don't know it it it would
00:40:29
have to depend on what's happening at that moment but you know I was so indoctrinated into that life at some
00:40:35
point um it's who I was sounds a bit like a cult in a way it's cult-like I guess you
00:40:44
know in a way I mean we didn't do silly things you know we wouldn't have rituals and ceremonies other than that that one
00:40:51
yeah other than that one nothing after that but what did it teach you about
00:40:57
people skills because you're around these bosses these very talented men
00:41:03
you're seeing how they conduct themselves do business Influence People win friends what what did that phase of
00:41:09
your life teach you about how to be a motivator SL manipulator of people yeah
00:41:15
it taught me well I think I got it you know there's kind of two levels in that
00:41:20
life you're either a racketeer or you're a gangster what's
00:41:26
the difference I'll tell you the difference a gangster is a guy that really doesn't
00:41:31
know how to use that life to benefit him in business so he's more of a I don't want
00:41:38
to say tough guy I don't want to say the term but he's more of a guy that hey we had something done this is the guy send him out let him do it because you got to
00:41:44
earn your keep in that life we in the Columbo family had 115
00:41:49
maid guys at that time out of of the 115 20 of us were really earning money and
00:41:55
supporting the family in some way and and really elevating the family we were
00:42:01
racketeers now a gangster could never really be a racketeer he just doesn't know how but a racketeer has to be a
00:42:07
gangster also because you're going to be called upon not as much as this guy but when you're called upon you got to do it
00:42:13
so you know I was more of a racketeer and as a result of that I was
00:42:20
constantly in business disputes and sitting down with other guys and you have to learn you know how to negotiate
00:42:27
I mean I learned the art of negotiation at these sit Downs you know learned how to try to you know really before I walk
00:42:34
into a meeting with somebody number one try to know the personality of that person know if there's a fallback
00:42:41
position if I'm not winning what I'll accept and so I had to prepare myself for these meetings because unprepared
00:42:47
you know they'll chew you up because a lot of these old time was were very skillful and believe me you could be
00:42:53
100% right and end up wrong and they'll put you in a in a trap so you really had to know what you were doing and so my
00:42:59
people skills in that regard as far as negotiating and identifying a true
00:43:05
leader um were really hone to a a you know a high degree because I came out on
00:43:12
top many many times what are the the principles of in your view of a good sell or a good negotiation are there and
00:43:19
are there small things that you saw within the mafia that you probably don't see in the outside world one of them
00:43:25
you've already named which is this idea of being really punctual mhm but what and it seems like respect is at the very
00:43:30
heart of much of what you said what are those small things that are important
00:43:35
for a negotiation or a sales pitch in your view well understand you know again
00:43:40
you know I always learn this there's sometimes you can walk into a room and be the smartest person in the room you
00:43:47
don't want anybody to know that and you want people to just talk let you know just talk give them an opening give them
00:43:54
throw them a bone so that they're gon to come back and talk and and learn the personality of this person learn you can
00:43:59
learn so much from people just when they talk and you keep quiet there's other times when you're not the smartest
00:44:05
person in the room and by keeping quiet nobody knows that what is this guy thinking what you know what is this
00:44:11
thinking it's a tremendous technique and in that life it was extremely valuable for me I was always the last guy to talk
00:44:19
don't tell me everything you know and uh it helped me kind of Master that art in
00:44:24
that life because you had these guys never sell them short there were some very smart guys here if they weren't in
00:44:30
that life they would have been successful somewhere else you know very smart so you had to really know what you were doing because the consequences too
00:44:36
are very severe I mean you could walk in there and lose your shirt you know
00:44:41
because the boss could say hey not only you going to pay this guy this but you're going to pay the family everything else and everything you got
00:44:47
I'm taking away from you right now those that's how severe it could have been so
00:44:52
you yes you really had to know I'll tell you this when I I think you know I was in the gas business right the gas tax
00:44:58
business I was defrauding the government out of tax on every gallon of gasoline it was probably the biggest scam since
00:45:05
the days of prohibition explain to me how that was even possible the law at that time is that the gas tax was
00:45:13
collected by a wholesaler you had to be a licensed wholesaler but the government really
00:45:19
wasn't up to their collection process so to make a long story short I had 18
00:45:24
companies that were licensed to col the tax on every gallon of gasoline they were all shell companies every single
00:45:30
one of them all right and they were all Panamanian companies why Panama because Panama corporation in c Panama had be
00:45:38
stock you give me the stock I'm the owner I give it to you you're the owner so we didn't have to give a lot of information the only reason I needed the
00:45:45
company was number one to get the LI to get the license and number two to open a bank account I didn't need brick or more
00:45:51
I need anything right that's all I needed so so now I'm allowed to collect the tax we had a very sophisticated um
00:45:59
process or strategy to collect that tax for about 10 11 sometimes a whole year
00:46:06
before the government came down on us because we had a report we had to pay quarterly and so on and so they were very slow they're very slow so we we had
00:46:13
a way to keep them at Bay for almost a year when they finally came down on us we closed the office closed the the that
00:46:21
license and just started operating under a new license well I ran this for seven years so just to summarize off I'll make
00:46:27
sure I'm clear you had the supply chain coming from Panama that was where the no we had we had the companies were
00:46:33
Panamanian companies okay right so where was the gas coming from gas was coming from we were buying barges as they came
00:46:38
over from the Middle East and we were buying gas from all the major oil companies ah okay so you bought the gas
00:46:44
with a shell company in Panama which allowed you to get the wholesale license so that you could collect the tax from
00:46:50
the retailer correct of the gas and then you would sell it to the retailer and then when the government for their tax
00:46:57
maybe 12 months later you say sorry the company's gone busted and you shut it down you would say anything the door would be closed there would be nobody
00:47:03
there they wouldn't even know where to go okay yeah so you were you then giving the retailer a discount on the gas yes
00:47:10
okay you know I I the way I do it let's say you know and I had 350 gas stations I either owned or operated 300 plus gas
00:47:16
stations we either owned or operate at least whatever but uh if we would go buy a gas station on a corner where there
00:47:22
were four stations and you have a lot of that in New York we would buy one station lead one station could have been
00:47:27
a mobile any brand didn't matter and we'd get the other three station owners and say come here we want to talk to you
00:47:33
here's the deal okay whatever you sell the gas for we're going to be two cents cheaper if you go down five we'll go
00:47:39
down 10 if you go down 10 we'll go down 20 because I had 40 cents to work with in most cases I we'll put you out of
00:47:45
business so just stay understand that we're going to stay two cents we don't want to kill you we want you to earn
00:47:51
money but we're always going to be cheaper before you know it they're buying all their GS from us anyway so we
00:47:56
was selling all all four stations were you know being supplied by us because look gas station owner if you're saving
00:48:03
them five six seven cents a gallon 10 cents a g it's a lot of money you know if they're doing volume too so we were
00:48:09
selling gas to everybody branded stations unbranded stations didn't matter and the government just could not
00:48:15
keep up with us so when I realized what I had you'll appreciate this I went to my boss at the time call my personal
00:48:21
he's passed on now and we called him Junior and I said Junior here's the deal I'm going to show you more money than
00:48:27
you've ever seen in your life cuz I realized what I had right he says we don't do drugs I says not drugs you know
00:48:33
I hate drugs I nothing to do with drugs he said what is it I said it's gas gas I
00:48:39
said yes tax money oh okay that's clean I said but here's the deal everybody's
00:48:45
going to want a piece of this everybody on the street when they realize what we what I have here they're going to want a piece of it so here's what you have to
00:48:51
do you have to make me win every argument I said anytime I sit down doesn't matter what family it is I said
00:48:57
don't play politics you know I said I'm not telling you as the boss what to do but I'm telling you I'm going to make
00:49:03
you wealthy so I said make me win every argument I'm going to be right anyway I'll come in right I said so make make
00:49:10
me win I'll make you more money than you ever seen before I'll never forget Steve he just sit back like this he said show
00:49:17
me okay I was bringing him $2 million a week it built up to that buys a lot of
00:49:22
loyalty and a lot of wins on the street CU I was constantly sitting down with people people they wanted a piece wanted
00:49:28
this wanted that then if somebody wasn't I wasn't the only guy in the business we just B it did it better than anybody
00:49:33
else but if somebody wanted to buy gas from us I'd say okay but you got to pay if you don't pay it's going to be a
00:49:39
problem so when people didn't pay we had to sit down I always won you know so it
00:49:44
was uh I mean look at it elevated I became a captain as a result of the money that I was turning in and I had a
00:49:52
big crew under me you know I was living a liftime in a Jet Plane I had a helicopter I we're bringing in 78 n10
00:49:58
million a week at times is that big selling a half a billion gallons of gas
00:50:03
a month taking down 30 40 cents a gallon whatever we decided to char somebody at that time it's a lot of
00:50:09
money that's a lot of money I think I'm in the wrong business no you're in a right yeah yeah from what I understand
00:50:16
you're doing pretty well so it's seven or eight seven to 10 million a week I'm not doing that well well does this
00:50:22
little gas Loop holster work let's put it this way I'm out of it and uh I don't
00:50:28
even want I don't even want to be tempted so if I wanted to become a maid
00:50:33
man back then which is basically when you kind of swear the oath yeah and you join the mafia that was after your two
00:50:39
years um of sort of probationary period being an intern I mean that process of becoming a
00:50:45
maid man sounded a little bit culty well I'll tell you this you know when I got
00:50:50
straightened out we we call it straightened out believe it or not you you're straightened out that's when you become a maid man right you know same
00:50:57
term but uh that was in 1975 for 20 years prior to that almost
00:51:03
25 years they had a a term that the books were closed they weren't bringing any new guys into the life and that was
00:51:10
Nationwide why security reasons they said the only time you can make a guy is
00:51:15
if a guy died in a family you could replace him so you're replaceing the ranks but you couldn't bring anybody else in well in the mid 70s they opened
00:51:23
the books okay now we're going to start to build the families up again when I was made there was guys waiting 20 years
00:51:29
25 years yeah that were part of that and just waiting for the day when they can
00:51:34
have their turn so I was you know definitely a younger guy I mean it was a couple of younger guys that got in at
00:51:40
that time you know the the double-edged sword because there's a lot of resentment to the young guys that got in
00:51:47
after two three years and guys are waiting 20 25 years you know you it's like anything else just that you have
00:51:53
the resentment from the older guys and I had to deal with that it's just that and it's it's a little more severe on the
00:51:58
street than it would be in normal life do you still you become a maid man you
00:52:03
have to swear an oath to the mafia what is that oath that you swear well for me
00:52:09
it was Halloween night 1975 when I took the oath it was me and five other guys
00:52:15
uh that night and you don't have any preparation they just tell you wear a suit and then all of a sudden that night
00:52:20
it happens you kind of get maybe a little inkling because you're waiting for this to happen and we walked into a
00:52:26
room individually it was late at night very solemn ceremony a dimly lit room
00:52:33
the uh boss was seated at the head of like a horseshoe configuration the under boss in the C area to his left and right
00:52:39
and all the carer James were alongside of them soldiers can't attend this only the copos only the the brass of the
00:52:45
family I walked down the aisle stood in front of the boss I held out my hand he took a knife cut my finger some blood
00:52:51
dropped on the floor this is a Blood Oath I cued my hands he took a picture of a saint Catholic alter God put in my
00:52:57
hands lit it a flame didn't hurt it burnt quickly it was merely symbolic and he said tonight Michael Frances you are
00:53:04
born again into a new life into kostra this thing of ours violate what you know
00:53:10
about this life betray your brothers and you will die and burn in hell like the saint is burning in your hands do you
00:53:16
accept yes I do and that's how it started that's the oath very fast very simple very serious were you scared when
00:53:26
you walked into I was exhilarated that night I was like wow finally you know
00:53:31
I'm going to have this even closer bond with my dad uh I've worked for this now for two and a half years um I was
00:53:38
exhilarated that night I mean hon and so were the other Five Guys everybody why
00:53:44
when you look back with the wisdom that you have now as to why you joined that life I know your father was a catalyst
00:53:50
in some respects but I imagine it's probably a bit more complex than it just being about your father what were your
00:53:55
genuine motiv ation you know quite honestly I didn't aspire to be a mom guy I mean even
00:54:02
though I admired my dad it's not the path that I wanted to take it didn't and
00:54:07
say wow I wish I could do that you know and it's kind of odd because a lot of the young people I speak to now lot
00:54:12
these gang bangers go into juvenile halls and prisons and they say the same
00:54:17
thing wow you guys had all the money you had all the power you had the cars you had the women and it turned them on and
00:54:24
that's what wanted they wanted to be that guy I didn't have that feeling maybe because I grew up with it maybe because that was
00:54:30
my dad um you know we didn't grow up poor weren't wealthy but we didn't really you know want for anything we we
00:54:37
had roof over our head we went on a vacation every once in a while so we didn't have struggle it financially in
00:54:43
that regard so I mean it's not something I aspired to be it was strictly strictly
00:54:48
to help my dad really yeah it really was then of course as I get into the process
00:54:53
well now I want to complete it I want to become that made guy I'm working for it you know it's like anything I do you
00:54:59
know I want to complete it I want to succeed so that became part of it and then you know because watching my dad is
00:55:06
one thing going through the process understanding what the life is about being around the other guys that were
00:55:11
mentoring me now I I started to really get an understanding of the life there I
00:55:17
say you sound like you were maybe slightly different
00:55:23
in in the sense of your intentions of being there with slightly different from those around you in that life what what
00:55:30
were everybody else's intentions what were their motivations and I was wondering as you speaking about the
00:55:35
different personality types you must have encountered in that life I've heard you say before there are two types of people in
00:55:42
the mafia people who enjoyed killing and people who were just following orders which Camp were you in oh
00:55:49
definitely following orders I mean I was listen there was some you know I can mention his name
00:55:55
because everybody knows it it's not but there's a guy by name Roy Deo I don't know if you ever heard that night Roy was uh you know it it was he was a
00:56:04
serial killer no question but what I say about Roy and I knew him Roy would have
00:56:10
been a serial killer if he wasn't in a mafia the mafia didn't make him a serial killer that's just who he was I mean he
00:56:16
enjoyed it you know and there were guys like that he enjoyed it I think so had to because how how could you do that I
00:56:23
mean what did he do couple hundred murders and if you you know he had a place called The Gemini Club it was
00:56:31
a it was a club that he had and they described the way they would kill
00:56:37
because some people became informants that were involved with him and I mean killing people chopping up bodies I mean
00:56:43
it it was gruesome you know I mean you're a different kind of human being if you're doing stuff like that you know
00:56:51
have you have you your experience in the mafia must have taught you something about the nature of humans and what way we're capable of because we all walk
00:56:58
around thinking that we're quote unquote good and that we are just we were born
00:57:05
with this perfect sort of moral compass and that none of us are capable of doing
00:57:10
violent things or morbid things or aoral things but you must have a slightly different perspective on that yeah not
00:57:16
true at all I think just the opposite I think we all have something in us that
00:57:22
you know if we're triggered in the right way we can we can do damage let's put it that way way I've seen that my whole
00:57:28
life sometimes for the right reasons and sometimes for the wrong reasons you know obviously if you're in defense of your
00:57:35
family of your friend I mean you you might do some horrible things to to somebody that's trying to victimize them
00:57:41
uh but there's others that you know just do it because they can do it and I've
00:57:46
seen that I've seen both do you think things like murder are part of human nature yes
00:57:54
absolutely I do believe that
00:57:59
I mean you know and I want to be clear on this be careful on this murder is
00:58:05
murder murder is murder the reason you commit it is another thing but listen
00:58:12
you're going to the military you're killing people on the other side why are you doing it well I'm defending my country and I get it and I understand
00:58:18
that and that's a noble thing supposedly right but you're still
00:58:23
committing murders you still have it in you you could have been the nicest guy in the world okay you could have been the most laid-back soft person in the
00:58:30
world you go into the military they're going to teach you to be a killer and you're going to do it so you have it in you you know
00:58:39
um it's a tough thing but I think I think everybody has the capability of
00:58:44
doing something doing damage let's let me use that word how have you been
00:58:50
affected by what you saw because I can imagine your eyes have seen seen some
00:58:55
things that mine absolutely haven't and it's it's impossible to think that one can just shake that off you know i' I've
00:59:03
been blessed in a way that sometimes even my wife gets upset with me that I
00:59:08
can compartmentalize things pretty well and I think it's the result of being in
00:59:13
that life and I I think this is what triggered it for me Steve I had a a fell
00:59:18
when my dad went to prison he was a they called him Arty the animal he's a real tough guy right he was a Jewish guy but
00:59:26
I loved him he was like a second dad for me my father and him were very close when my dad went away he kind of again
00:59:31
took not only me but my whole family very close with his family he had younger kids his his wife was was
00:59:38
wonderful and um he got murdered I was young was 17 18 years old and he got
00:59:44
murdered no I'm sorry I'm sorry made mistake it was when my dad first went into prison so I was 19 or
00:59:50
20 and um I walked into the funeral parlor I'll
00:59:55
never forget get and his sister came up to me and hugged me and she said you
01:00:02
need to come with me you need to look at what these animals did to my brother I'll never forget the words the coffin
01:00:08
was closed and she opened the coffin and he was unrecognizable there's a guy I
01:00:17
loved I I didn't faint but it got to me it really got to me i' never seen
01:00:23
anything like that before in reality especially somebody I really cared for really loved and it did have an impact
01:00:30
on me there's no question but somehow I was able to get
01:00:36
beyond that as a young person I don't know what that says about me in that
01:00:41
regard um and I'm able to do that about certain things you know even if it's wrong this
01:00:48
was wrong but I I can't sit on it I can't let it get to me I can't I got to
01:00:54
overcome it and I think think that was uh that was a defining moment in my life
01:00:59
to be able to move that and then continue to move into the life because I said this is part of it do you regret
01:01:06
that she did that that she showed you him yeah I didn't need to see that I
01:01:13
didn't need to um she did it out of love she didn't do it out of because she loved me and she was her sister
01:01:21
devastated and I think she felt close enough to me because she knew how I cared about Arty and how he cared about
01:01:27
me so she just it was grief no other reason you know it was just aere a
01:01:34
sincere move that she did but I didn't need to see that and you know what
01:01:39
there's times when I have visions of that um my wife you know I have a
01:01:44
tendency in my sleep things don't come out of me when I'm awake but when I'm in my sleep she says you know you had a
01:01:51
fight last night who is it with and it happens fairly often you know more than
01:01:56
I think a normal person um but I don't remember I wake up hey I'm fine you see
01:02:03
him in your sleep I have yeah I have
01:02:08
um again that was like boom you know and something just impacts you in a way like
01:02:14
whoa I compartmentalizing sounds like a good short-term strategy to to things to
01:02:22
grief to um traumatic events and things but I I don't know if I believe one can
01:02:27
truly compartmentalize something Forever Without It rearing its its head some somewhere else I almost see it like kind
01:02:34
of like whacka all like I might be able to shut it down in this part of my life but it's probably going to emerge over here in some other way I agree with that
01:02:42
I I think when something is so severe even at that moment I think it could it
01:02:48
could last and come out in different ways you know um you know I mean another
01:02:54
I mean there was a very dear friend friend of mine you know was like a brother to me and he ended up getting killed and that had an impact on me
01:03:02
because I honestly tried to save him and I couldn't yeah because he he without
01:03:08
getting into the details he did something that was total violation of our life and he lost his life as a
01:03:16
result of it and I couldn't save him I tried but I couldn't he was in the mafia
01:03:24
yeah so there was a sit down I'm presuming and it was decided that he wasn't going to live yeah were you in a
01:03:30
sit down I was in I was in a number of sit Downs in my life you know
01:03:36
um yeah it was uh it was a tough one you know one of
01:03:43
the horrors of that life is you know you make a mistake your best friend walks you into that room you don't walk out
01:03:48
again and throughout the course of my life I've seen that obviously I've seen guys that you know were here one day
01:03:54
gone the next and it's uh it's it's one of the evil parts of
01:03:59
that life there's no question and I saw guys that that died for the wrong reasons you know it's like anything else
01:04:06
you know in in the corporate world you have greed and you have backstabbing and all of that but you lose your job you
01:04:12
lose some money you move on in that life the consequences are severe so um I was thinking about my
01:04:20
best friend and I was thinking if my best friend did something which was
01:04:26
disrespectful in some way I don't know he stole something maybe he something
01:04:31
even more extreme he slept with my
01:04:37
sister you know I wouldn't want him to die no you
01:04:44
wouldn't want him to die but in the life you came from he would he would die it's uh it's a it's the most severe policy I
01:04:51
I'll tell you this I'll tell you how severe it is there was another guy you know and I have to mention his name was
01:04:57
two brothers that were made guys in that life and I was friendly with them both one of them happened to be in our family
01:05:02
the other one was with another family but I drove him home to Brooklyn one day and um he got out of the car and I
01:05:11
said I'll see he said no wait wait don't leave yet I said okay I waited so he opened the door of his house and he
01:05:18
looked in and like he was looking at something I wasn't really paying attention but then I seen him close the door and come out and he got in car and
01:05:26
I said what happened he said well nobody's home I but that's your house what do you mean nobody's home why do
01:05:32
somebody have to be home and he said I can't go in my house I said what do you mean well his father had been caught
01:05:41
fooling around with somebody else's wife or daughter at the time and him and his
01:05:46
brother were given the contract and he killed his father and he said anytime I walk in the
01:05:51
house if I'm alone the ghost of my father is in there and haunts me so he said I haven't been in my house
01:05:58
alone in 20 some odd years he killed his own father
01:06:04
yeah now I want to you know I don't want to
01:06:10
how should I say this I don't want to give the impression that that's what the life is all about every day and all the
01:06:17
time it's not but there are extreme cases where these things happen and that's what
01:06:22
makes it a bad life and I call it an evil life because families are destroyed as a result of this I don't know any
01:06:30
family of any maid member of that life that hasn't been devastated including my
01:06:35
own now not my wife and kids I've been able to spare them of that praise God but my mother 33 years without a husband
01:06:42
when she passed away in 2012 her relationship with my dad ugly because
01:06:48
she blamed him for everything that went wrong rightfully so he was gone all these 40 years my dad did on that 50 so
01:06:54
what went wrong my sister 27 years old dies of an O overdose of
01:07:00
drugs my brother 25 years a drug addict Steve you don't know what I had to do to
01:07:06
save his life so many times kid you know drug addict if he wasn't my my brother
01:07:12
my Father's son he would have never made it my younger sister 40 years old she died young she was never mentally stable
01:07:20
the whole family was devastated and my father ended up doing 40 years out of 50
01:07:25
in that prison he was out a few times on parole but 40 years out of the 50 his life destroyed basically so any
01:07:32
lifestyle that does that to a family is a bad life it's an evil life and I don't
01:07:37
know any family of any member that hasn't met a similar fate in some way shape or form so you know I came to that
01:07:44
conclusion I said this is this is bad and what got me out of it you know I met a young girl that I fell in love with
01:07:51
she was 20 years old my wife were married 39 years this week um I said' am I going to do this to this
01:07:58
girl and marry her I'm a major Target is I'm never going to get away with this
01:08:04
long term I had huge Bulls on my back I went to trial five times I had seven
01:08:09
indictments arrested 18 times they were never going to let me go they had a 14 agency task force that was assigned to
01:08:16
put me in jail forever it's all documented so I said what am I going to do I'm going to marry this girl and in
01:08:22
two years I'll be in jail for the rest of my life so that's what started to give me I got to get away from
01:08:30
this do you think you would have um gotten away from it just with the will of Love Alone no if it was I I you
01:08:39
know I really thought about this myself so often you know I had an incident
01:08:45
where my dad actually betrayed me and it was devastating to me and it
01:08:51
made me think I said if this life can separate father and son what do I really have here what do we really have what
01:08:57
are we doing here and I didn't meet my wife until two years after
01:09:02
that um but I I don't if that act of betrayal didn't happen for my dad I
01:09:09
don't know if I would have ever left the life because the the pull he had on me was very strong I don't know if I would
01:09:15
have walked away but I think that had to happen to kind of separate me from him
01:09:20
and really make me understand that this life if it could separate us what is it
01:09:26
what was the Betrayal I was called into a room one night was over money and there was an
01:09:32
article that came out in a Long Island newspaper I think it was a long island press out of circulation now that said I
01:09:39
was becoming powerful enough to take over to start my own family break away from the Columbo start my own family no
01:09:46
truth in it whatsoever some reporter just made it up because I was doing well I had a Jet Plane helicopter big crew I
01:09:52
was in the media what was your net worth and how old were you I was uh well when I walked away from
01:09:59
that life I was 34 this was I was around 30 at that point 29 30 do you know what your net worth was I have no idea
01:10:06
because I had a lot of cash was in the Millions for sure it was a lot of money and then it was saying that I that I had
01:10:12
defrauded the government at $2 billion it wasn't two billion it was a lot of money but you know they always they
01:10:17
always exaggerate so now guys on the street are starting to get a little2 billion dollar his own family I had the
01:10:24
Russians I had organ organized the Russians with me we had a very strong crew had a lot of guys around me so I
01:10:30
think to they walk me into that room one night and my father was in there before
01:10:36
me and I mean I could this story can take an hour so I don't want to hold you up with it but um the bottom line is I I
01:10:46
I talk my sense into them and said basically I'm bringing you all this
01:10:52
money and I'm being put on the spot for this I said I'm taking all the risk nobody else is in Jeopardy here these
01:10:59
are my guys nobody knows who you are I purposely kept my guys away from them so
01:11:04
that if my thing ever blew up we wouldn't be hurting any of the guys in the family and I said and now I'm being
01:11:10
questioned I said they write an article about me all of a sudden it's true they write about everybody else it's false so
01:11:18
I started to get angry with the boss you don't do that you know you know the you never outshine the master you know that
01:11:24
principle and that life for sure so I calmed myself down I said okay I'm walking out of here everything's going
01:11:29
to be all right then we finished up and you know we glass of wine everything's great you know the usual thing and then
01:11:35
it wasn't until I got in the car with the guy that drove me there who I knew my whole life he was a captain along
01:11:42
with me and I got in the car and I got very upset with him I said you knew you didn't tell me what was happening here
01:11:47
tonight I walking into a trap and you don't prepare me you don't say anything to me you know what he said Steve he
01:11:54
looked at me and he said if was the other way around would you have told me and I said you're a smart guy and I
01:12:01
said no said Michael you know the life as well as anybody you grew up around the
01:12:07
best I said okay I get out of I go to get out of the car and he grabs my hand
01:12:13
my arm and he says I'm going to tell you something you're not going to want to hear this but it's the truth I am your friend he said we live by a certain code
01:12:20
but I am your friend I said what your father was in there before you tonight he didn't help you one bit he hurt you
01:12:26
in there tonight and I was like devastated I said what do you
01:12:31
mean and I said it to myself I didn't ask him I couldn't even answer him I W I was starting I got out of the car and
01:12:37
was walking towards my car and I started to think knowing my father so well I said I know what he did hey my son is
01:12:45
stealing he does everything I'm on parole I don't know what he's doing I have no idea he just kind of took the
01:12:51
high road and left me on my own instead of standing up for me because we were both captains at that point my Dad could
01:12:57
have forcefully said how dare you my son would never rob me he could have really came out but he didn't I was really on
01:13:03
my own and that could have been dangerous you know again the traps that
01:13:08
they set up for you during that time because believe me they would have love to take over my business and just you
01:13:13
know and you got to watch for that so the traps that were set up you know fortunately I was able to navigate him
01:13:19
but uh it really was devastating CU I said H how could that happen and you
01:13:24
were running most multiple businesses at that point not just the the fuel business no I had I had uh well you know
01:13:30
I had legitimate business I had two uh automate Bal agencies I had a Mazda dealership very successful I had a
01:13:36
Chevrolet dealership successful I had a leasing company I had a film production company at that time I was making movies
01:13:43
I made about 30 Films during that time all horror exploitation films they were big at that point I had a number of
01:13:49
restaurants that I was involved in um I had a video shop on video you know sets
01:13:55
and everything were big didn't compete with Blockbuster but we had a good neighborhood spot you know so I had a lot of things going on I had a lot of
01:14:01
money on the street I was lended money out to uh to a lot of my own guys I'd lend it to them they in turn would lend
01:14:07
it to somebody else you know so I mean I had I had had a lot going on and did you have to pay a tax to the mafia for
01:14:14
earning money did you have to then pay the mafia some of that money if it was illegitimate yes okay so if it's legal
01:14:20
no if it's legal no unless they contributed in some way and they didn't my dealerships were mine I didn't didn't owe them anything you know my my film
01:14:27
company was mine uh but anything I had on the street yes you have to pay up how
01:14:32
did being part of the mafia help you in business could you just you told me the gas station story I imagine you went
01:14:39
strong arming your way all the time into business or were you didn't have the strong arm you know uh listen the Mazda
01:14:46
agencies that I got people knew who I was you know I was going broke I didn't have any money I was on trial a couple I
01:14:53
was broke but I told the guy said listen I understand the business I'm very aggressive Give me the give me the place
01:14:59
you know who my father is you know ah you got it I'm going broke so he gave me the dealership basically and then
01:15:06
through a series of things I was able to get floor planning I mean it was a whole stuff I worked hard Steve I was 7 day a
01:15:12
week working guy worked hard I kind of understood certain things like you know
01:15:18
I right away there was a guy in General Electric Credit you know I went to him I knew he kind of was fascinated with the
01:15:25
life and I said to him look I need a floor plan for my cars I don't have any money I said I need a couple hundred, I
01:15:32
got to be able to buy cars from Mazda I said I'll give you so much your car I said you floor plan me I'll play it
01:15:38
straight with you every car I sell I'll give you a couple hundred bucks he was in troll he floor planned me that's how
01:15:44
I got the floor plan what's the floor plan floor plan is financing to buy the cars from from the uh manufacturer so
01:15:51
you can put them on your yacht oh your they don't give you credit you got to when does it all come crashing down for
01:15:58
you well Came Crashing Down really like I I had went to trial five times and is
01:16:05
either dismissed or quitted in every case I beat him five times but it came
01:16:11
crashing down in the gasoline tax case my partner who he and I developed this scheme together he was really the brains
01:16:17
of it I was the Polish I knew how to do certain things that he couldn't do but
01:16:24
he came up with the scheme I brought the accountant in I brought a certain strategy in I brought people to the
01:16:30
table and I made sure nobody messed up and we got the right money I was I was the expansion part of the business you
01:16:36
know and um he became an informant he got in trouble on an unrelated case and
01:16:43
uh they told him listen you're going to jail forever unless you give us Michael and that's when it started to come down
01:16:48
on me I took a plead at a gasoline case even though he had testified against me in a prior case and I was acquitted we
01:16:55
destroyed him on the stand he wasn't a good witness but part of my strategy I'll take a plea I'll marry I knew my
01:17:02
wife at that point I'm going to marry this girl I'll get a lower sentence by taking a plea I'll give the government back some money I gave up my plane my
01:17:09
helicopter the whole bit take it forfeitures I had five million in forfeitures and 15 million in restitution I had to pay them so um it
01:17:17
was part of my strategy to take a plea do some time give them some money move
01:17:23
out to the West Coast marry girl and then try to get out of her life it's part of my strategy really how' you feel
01:17:30
about him you know I'm going to tell you God's honest truth um he was six 6'4
01:17:38
almost 65 450 pounds big guy he wasn't a sloppy fat he was a big guy right we
01:17:46
were together seven eight years never had an argument his kids called me uncle Michael I was married before for a short
01:17:54
time and my young kids called him Uncle Larry we made Millions together but I
01:18:00
knew he was weak I knew if he ever got in trouble and um look when he got in
01:18:05
trouble they said to me we'll take care of him for you and I said listen I'm going to fight him his wife I know his
01:18:12
family I can't do it I said just I'll fight him in court they were upset with me for making that decision and that was
01:18:19
my decision I said I'll fight him in court and um that's what happened how'd you feel
01:18:26
about him it's almost like I couldn't even be really upset
01:18:33
with him because we were we got along so well we made so much money I just knew he was weak so you know I learned one
01:18:39
thing Steve I I try not to put the blame on anybody else anything that goes wrong I take responsibility for
01:18:47
personally I should have known better even if some guy does me wrong why
01:18:52
didn't I figure that out why didn't I know this I always to take responsibility so I don't make the same mistake again it's worked for me my
01:18:58
whole life when you start playing a Blame Game and start all it does it's it's a sign of weakness in my view and
01:19:06
you know if you accept responsibility for everything even when it really isn't your fault and you say I should have known better come on how did I do this
01:19:13
why I let this guy get take advantage of me like this you know until right now I have a situation now I'm saying the same
01:19:20
thing my fault you know what am I going to do get mad you know so you know it's just the way I operate so was I really
01:19:27
upset with him like you know no when you say you knew he was weak how are you
01:19:33
defining weakness and strength I knew if he got in trouble he wouldn't stand up he would cooperate he didn't want to go
01:19:39
to prison he was he wasn't a guy that was going to do jail time I knew that
01:19:44
and uh and my other guy you know one of the things is my boss always wanted to
01:19:51
meet him and I said I'm not going to me now I know why they wanted to meet him you know in case of anything they would
01:19:56
take him away from me right I said I'm not going to make you meet him because he's weak if we ever get he he's going
01:20:03
to give up everybody so why would I make him meet you and then you're going to blame me for introducing him to you
01:20:09
strategy right they couldn't say no to that they couldn't say no and I said it in front of people I said I'm telling
01:20:15
you this guy is not going to stand up when I have a problem he's my problem I'll take care of it my way but I'm not
01:20:21
going to introduce him to people that he can put in trouble no way and they couldn't argue with that was
01:20:27
part of my strategy so when he snitched effectively MH did they not want to take
01:20:33
care of it oh absolutely yeah they said we'll handle it for you you know turn us you know let us know they wanted they
01:20:40
wanted him out of the picture so they didn't want this to end because they figured that if he's
01:20:46
gone I can still keep this going how how easy was that for them to
01:20:52
order someone's murder because they it sounds to matter of fact like oh we'll take care of this the boss had total how
01:21:00
hard was it for the boss to order a murder and then have it executed yeah wasn't hard at
01:21:06
all was not hard at all especially was with somebody within our life it wasn't hard unfortunately so the
01:21:14
boss could you say take care of him and then someone would go and do it absolutely no questions asked boss at
01:21:20
that point say he's going to go they need to sign it to somebody and then it's up to them
01:21:25
how they handle it what if they didn't handle it they'd be in trouble they got to handle it was there ever an instance
01:21:32
you can recall why someone didn't handle it well it could have been an aborted attempt and if it was a legitimately
01:21:39
aborted attempt um you know you you're normally not going to be held responsible for that
01:21:45
but if you're given a job you better get it done let's put it that way or you going to be responsible in some ways yes
01:21:52
you could be especially if that person goes on to do something hurtful to everybody
01:21:57
else eventually you do get sent to prison you take a plea deal yeah what's
01:22:02
your plea deal I plad to uh it was a racketeering case the underlying Act was
01:22:09
uh tax fraud MH and um two counts that I pled guilty to racketeering conspiracy
01:22:15
something and 10-year prison sentence 15 million 14.7 million in restitution 5
01:22:21
million in forfeitures and um leave you with any money well yes because in negotiating
01:22:30
The Plea I was able to keep certain things and not I said listen if I'm
01:22:35
going to take a plea my wife's not going to go to work I'm going to make sure my wife my kid they're all okay so I'm
01:22:41
going to keep some of the money you know so uh when you're negotiating a plea my
01:22:47
lawyer he was able to at least give me enough my wife never had to go to work when I was in jail did they I was
01:22:53
wondering this because a lot other things you described sound like they were done in cash a lot of cash no
01:22:59
question um but there was a lot of wire transfers and money sent in different places we had a lot but not everybody
01:23:06
paid and we were selling to legitimate gas station owners you know they didn't pay you in cash all the time and
01:23:13
especially when you selling big volume there was a lot of wire transfers a lot of wire activity what was the most cash
01:23:18
you ever saw in person oh gosh I think the most I've ever seen is like 10K I
01:23:24
just think well I've just never seen a lot of cash in my lifetime we I don't even have a wallet you don't deal with cash I just
01:23:29
have my phone so you know probably 40 50 million around there in
01:23:35
cash in cash yeah yeah you've seen 40 or 50 million in cash mhm when was that
01:23:42
back in the uh 80s early 80s was it just in a room or something yeah it was in a
01:23:47
room yeah how how big does a room have to be to have 40 50 had to be pretty big
01:23:52
cuz gas station money is small bills okay yeah I mean listen it got to a
01:23:58
point with the cash where I used to come home and I used to get the fives and ones and I used to give them to my wife
01:24:03
say give this to your brothers and sisters because I have no room for them there's no place to put them and I'd give her a couple Grand and and say just
01:24:10
give it out want keep the 20s and you know the T and it was you know washing the money
01:24:17
was an issue I mean I once my wife went to the bank and I gave her I don't know thousands of dollars to deposit and and
01:24:25
the banker said why does your money always smell like gas so my wife Saidi not going to the bank anymore for you
01:24:31
she and she didn't know I was doing anything wrong I never discussed it with her I never told her anything I said hey
01:24:36
I'm in this business I'm a wholesaler we have a lot of cash you know you go to a gas station they pay with cash and have
01:24:42
as many credit cards as they have now so uh so it came to a point I said all right I'll fix it and I bought a
01:24:48
refrigerator and I put baking soda in the refrigerator with the cash and that took the smell out and she said I never seen anything
01:24:56
like that before I said well you know gas nobody wants to smell gas you know I but I made everything legitimate out of
01:25:01
it I never told her a thing that was going on never did you not I always I always think when I read stories like
01:25:07
this that if I was in that moment I would live in a permanent state of fear that I might go to jail so I'd take I
01:25:13
don't know a couple of million and bury it somewhere you're nodding is that what you did well listen I I you know I was
01:25:22
resourceful in that regard but you know your plans don't always work out the way you want them to I'll tell you one thing
01:25:28
that really hurt me bad I hired a lawyer that had just come out of the government the prosecution's office he was as a
01:25:35
matter of fact he was almost on one of my cases but he wasn't so there was no conflict but he just came out of the
01:25:41
eastern district of New York which is Brooklyn where my cases were most of them and so I hired him and I said John
01:25:47
I need one thing from you I want to know when I'm going to be arrested or locked up or indicted on this gasoline case
01:25:54
this was after my pondy became a snitch and he said I'll never forget he said
01:25:59
don't worry about it June of 86 that's when it's going to happen you got time right and this was like the middle of
01:26:06
85 I said great I had got married in July of 85 right I said great I got time
01:26:11
I have my own plan I was moving things around but I was figuring I had seven eight nine months well I got indicted in
01:26:19
December of that year and no Bell so they kind of derailed a lot of my plan
01:26:25
and strategy because I got locked up six months earlier than I thought and so
01:26:30
that that was that was hurtful I can tell you that what was your plan I was
01:26:36
moving a lot of money around quite honestly moving a lot of money around at different places and uh physical money
01:26:42
or yeah yeah and money that I had put in certain
01:26:48
places I was taking it out and I was putting it so I I said I I never have to worry about anything again I'm going to
01:26:54
have to sit on this cash because um another thing happened my partner and I
01:27:00
had a um a bank in Austria and we were taking a federal tax money 9 cents and we were just putting
01:27:07
in that banking we weren't we opened up a bank account he had half the number it was a numbered account he had half the
01:27:13
number I had half the number neither one of us knew the other half right we just did it I was came up that I said let's
01:27:19
make sure we have no temptation it was more for him than for me right and
01:27:24
we had about $33 million in that account when he became a snitch I got a
01:27:30
hold of his son Larry Jr his name was Larry and I said tell your father I'll fight him in court don't give up the
01:27:37
money it's our money it's for you your mother but don't give up the money whatever happens let's we'll worry about
01:27:43
the court situation well he testifies against me he becomes an informant goes to HBY he
01:27:50
never gives up the money never gives up the account he testifies against me and a juliani case I get acquitted jury
01:27:57
didn't believe him right we destroyed him on the stand so now the government in the eastern district the other side
01:28:02
in Brooklyn said you're worthless you couldn't get a conviction on Francis you're worthless we're throwing you out
01:28:07
of the program you're done he gets scared he says wait a second you know there's more he gives him the half of
01:28:14
the number the FBI goes to Austria true story goes to Austria and says it's
01:28:21
Mafia money we have half the uh the account number we want it Austria says I
01:28:27
don't care what money it is you come with the full account number or you're not getting anything tells the FBI they didn't care they wouldn't give it up
01:28:33
Austria not Switzerland Austria right so now when I'm they I get indicted then
01:28:39
negotiating The Plea originally they want to give me a $100 million fine and 25 years in prison that was what we were
01:28:47
negotiating so my lawyer comes to me he says you're never going to get the money he's got the it's done it's over it's
01:28:54
finished he says give me the account number it'll help me negotiate The Plea down I give it to him they negotiate the
01:29:03
plea from 25 years and 100 million down to 10 years and 15 million with a 5
01:29:08
million forfeiture Clause right so he did it did was very helpful in that regard but we lost all that money that
01:29:15
was it you know it was meaningful it wasn't all everything but it was meaningful and and when he cooperated
01:29:22
they gave him back 2 and a half milon out of that 33 million so he profited a
01:29:28
little bit out of it at least did you have anything buried in the ground yes physically buried in the ground in a
01:29:35
safe yes in a safe in the ground safes I would say saf in the ground yes up until
01:29:41
you were released they were there let's put it that no because it's what any I think
01:29:47
anyone with a brain would do but you just if you don't know the timing of your well even if you didn't I think if I was in that life i' I'd live ass ass
01:29:54
uming that at some point I was probably going to have to do some time for something so I Buri it all over the
01:29:59
place I I will tell you this they they believe that I have a lot of money stash someplace to the point where they hired
01:30:05
an investigator who wrote a book about it just to go and investigate and search
01:30:10
and this guy went around the world to different accounts that he thought I might have had money in he wrote a book
01:30:15
about it and they couldn't identify they couldn't find it but until today I get plagued with that they say we know you
01:30:21
got it 100% we know you got it we just wondering when you're going to go get it
01:30:27
um I I don't I I don't respond to silly stuff like that you know do you think
01:30:33
you're being followed and watched no no I mean I think
01:30:40
uh let's put it this way at any moment you can get in the crosshairs again and
01:30:46
who knows but I don't think they're worried or concerned about me at this moment it's not to say that that
01:30:54
you know that could not be a concern of theirs again but um I don't worry about that
01:31:02
but you were just saying there that that you said they are just waiting for me to go and get it they think they're just
01:31:07
waiting for you to go and get oh yeah retired agents have told me that agents okay so not the mafia agents yeah well
01:31:14
the M they they absolutely think I do there's no question that I know yeah I've been at there's guys that have told
01:31:20
me that you know told you what we know you have it when are you g to go get it you know when they say go get it do they
01:31:27
mean New York no you know wherever the money is buried or wherever the wherever
01:31:32
it is you know when is it going to appear I hear that I've heard that consistently over the years is it
01:31:39
buried Le let's put it this way if it's there who knows if I'll ever
01:31:44
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apply you went to prison though and you're in solitary confinement for a while while you're in prison
01:32:52
um I can't imagine I can't imagine one of my recurring nightmares is going to
01:32:58
prison I think it's just like my deepest darkest really fear yeah it is it's specifically going to prison for
01:33:04
something I didn't do is one of my like recurring nightmares that will happen every couple of months and it's just the
01:33:09
worst feeling in the world that is a nightmare I mean to go for something you didn't do for
01:33:14
sure yeah prison is uh listen it's like anything else you got to know how to navigate the system as best you can and
01:33:21
um you know my father taught me again he said' am I going to tell you three things that are going to help you when
01:33:26
you go to prison because you're going to go one day he said three words that are going to go a long way please thank you
01:33:33
excuse me and he said the reason for that he said all these guys in prison
01:33:39
that never got respect on the street they want it all in there they want to show their people you know that they're
01:33:44
tough guys or whatever you bunk into somebody excuse me you want to cut somebody on the line go to eat whatever
01:33:51
said do you mind you know excuse me please if I can come in front of you don't ever just get in front of them you
01:33:57
know and somebody hands you hey thank you thank you very much be cordial you know and it really help because I saw
01:34:02
guys try to throw their weight around John Gotti tried to throw his weight around don't work in there guys are doing life in prison they don't care who
01:34:08
you are what do they got to lose you know um but I never had a problem never
01:34:14
had a problem in prison I treated people that way and um yeah I did spend 29
01:34:19
months and seven days in solitary and honestly not easy that was
01:34:25
rough I saw a lot of guys did not do well and I don't I don't demean them for
01:34:31
it you know lights went out sometimes you heard a lot of things I seen a lot of things in there guys couldn't deal with it for extended times it's rough
01:34:38
it's it's I'm dead set against it for young people I think it's a form of torture really really hurt them
01:34:45
emotionally um and I'm against it you know unless somebody's such a danger to themsel or a danger to others you know
01:34:51
I'm dead set against it but I got through it why were you sent to solitary
01:34:56
they were upset with me you know when uh when I wouldn't cooperate to the level that they wanted me to uh especially in
01:35:04
one big case that they tried to get me to take the stand against a friend of mine and I refused and uh within a few
01:35:10
days I was back in on a parole violation they locked me up and sent me right to the hole and I was in solitary the whole
01:35:17
time getting me just getting even with me 29 months and seven days seven days
01:35:22
yeah in a row or yes it was uh I did I did 11 months in one place and then they
01:35:28
moved me that took about two days and then put me in another place and I finished it up when you say that you had
01:35:36
grown men in there breaking what do what do you mean you know banging heads against the bars and
01:35:43
just just some other disgusting things you don't want to hear I mean you know damaging themselves you know
01:35:49
hurting themselves just to get out of the hole you know I'd see guys at that did things to themselves to get out of
01:35:55
to get out of the hole in jail and get sent to the prison so they didn't have to stay in that environment
01:36:03
anymore it was just it was just bad that that's nightmare stuff it really is you
01:36:10
um you're quite uncomfortable talking about it aren't you yeah because you know it's kind of
01:36:15
demeaning to to and I'm not trying to come off that way I'm not say well I was a tough guy I was able to handle it I
01:36:21
was by the grace of God I was able to handle it I had my days and my nights where you know you say God it's one long
01:36:27
day it never ends you know and I mean I lost a lot of weight in there I was down to I'm I'm like 190 something now I was
01:36:35
180 166 when I got out of there because I wouldn't eat you know the food that
01:36:40
they gave us I got uh uh tomain poisoning a couple of times I said hey give me cereal give me bananas and give
01:36:47
me cup of soup that's all I want to eat I don't want to eat anything else and so I lived on that for quite some time and
01:36:53
you know I don't want to make it sound that I mean it wasn't uh you know some
01:36:58
of these places where you know you don't have a toilet or anything else I mean I'm sure there's places around the world
01:37:04
that a lot worse could be but it's just the solitary it wasn't so much the
01:37:11
conditions you know what I mean we had a sink we had a toilet you had your bed with a little
01:37:16
mattress um so that wasn't it was just it was just being solitary that's hard
01:37:23
did you did you find yourself losing your own mind in there and whatever that might mean
01:37:31
no no Steve honestly and I was pretty I think I have a fairly strong
01:37:37
Constitution as something in me and that's that's god-given you know I can't
01:37:42
I can't say I don't know how you don't do you acquire something like that or it's just who you are I don't know but
01:37:49
um I was able to deal with it I mean I had my b nights in there you know and
01:37:54
you're just fortunately I had a Sony Walkman music was you have no idea music
01:38:01
was so soothing I remember one Christmas Eve I had just gotten off the phone with my wife and it was devastating the whole
01:38:08
family was there and it was just and I just put my Walkman on and and it just lifted me out of there for a minute just
01:38:14
the music you forget stuff you know um and you know I I got into my Bible
01:38:19
during that time and I was listening to a pastor that I had had not known and never met him his name was Greg Lori
01:38:26
he's Harvest Crusade huge Pastor here now very dear friend of mine now uh but
01:38:32
his words were so uplifting I look forward to listening to him every morning he had a morning radio shows and
01:38:40
so things like that meant a lot and then getting to a phone everything is about
01:38:46
the phone and and having uh you know contact with your family so the thing
01:38:51
that worried me when my dad went away at that time he got one three minute phone
01:38:57
call a month and one visit a month One 8 hour visit that was it so he lost touch with
01:39:05
the family and him and my mother drifted apart my sister hardly knew him you know
01:39:11
my he he you just can't if you're not in touch with people it just naturally happens so when I went away my fear was
01:39:19
that was going to happen to me and my wife so I did all I wanted I told I told you want to lock me up lock me up just
01:39:25
give me my phone calls and give me my visits I don't care what you do I'll take everything else but don't take my
01:39:30
phone call don't take my visit I'm not going to do anything that will cause you to do that so don't do it that's all I
01:39:35
cared about because I wanted to maintain a relationship with my wife and she stuck by you she did she did eight years
01:39:44
that I did she stuck by me and she was young she had a great mom good Christian
01:39:49
mom who held her up our church at that time Westwood Hills Christian Church
01:39:55
they rallied around my wife and me and my kids we had little babies back then
01:40:00
um and she stood up when I went I I did five years I was home for 13 months very
01:40:07
difficult 13 months it was de contract on my life people wanted to kill me and
01:40:12
government was all over me to become a witness and I had a very tough time I violated my parole and when I went in
01:40:20
the feds told her you're never going to see your husband free again again we're inditing him on another case we violated
01:40:26
his parole he's done he may as well pack it up and she had a breakdown on me at that
01:40:31
point she probably couldn't see me for about six or seven weeks she didn't come to visit can you imagine what life would
01:40:37
have been like in solitary if she had decided that it was all too much for her
01:40:43
I would have been bitter and and resentful I I don't think I would have come out of there the
01:40:50
same I really don't um cuz she meant that much to me still
01:40:56
does but cuz I did everything for her basically you know I mean she was the
01:41:02
reason why I left that life even though I knew it was a bad life I wouldn't have left I was so
01:41:08
indoctrinated Steve when I walked into that room that night I thought I was going to die and yet I walked into the
01:41:15
room wow what a hero it wasn't heroic it was robotic I was so much a part of that
01:41:22
life I had seen so much said well it's my turn it's my turn wasn't her Rogue I was scared out of my mind my knees were
01:41:28
weak my heart was stumping out of my chest you know and I still didn't want them to realize that I was that scared
01:41:34
but I was really scared which room the room your father ton night they walked me I told you they they walk me into
01:41:39
that room and I didn't know if I was going to you know that's one of the horrors of that life the night my dad
01:41:44
betrayed me you your dad you walked into that room that night with the bosses there and a lot of other people there
01:41:50
and your dad there he wasn't there oh he was left already he had left already Yes they they talked to us uh separately and
01:41:59
when they had a conversation with him had they told him that you were going to there was going to be a contract on you
01:42:05
I they didn't tell him that but they were fishing to find out if there was a reason for it to happen you in other
01:42:14
words if I believe now this is my perception of that night there was two
01:42:19
reasons they walked me in one of two number one trying to scare me to let me
01:42:24
know you may be making all this money you may have this big crew that article
01:42:29
came out in the paper but we're the boss you try to make a move you're going to die that's what I think that was it was
01:42:36
either that or they really believed I was doing something wrong and they were going to
01:42:41
try to take over the business now again remember one of the safeguards I never
01:42:47
let him meet that guy and I never L him my crew was my crew I didn't bring them around they were my guys
01:42:53
and when we fell nobody no maid guy fell with us it was only my crew so I
01:42:59
protected them in that way but but in another way I was safeguarding my business so were they going to look for
01:43:07
an excuse that night to take me out very possibly and you think your dad might have been aware of that
01:43:13
yes in a way yes because and again I've struggled with
01:43:19
this too okay Dad you you betrayed me that night you threw me under the bus he didn't say well my son did this wrong my
01:43:25
son did that he didn't do that he just said I don't know I can't tell you I don't know and
01:43:31
that was damaging he didn't stand up for me how'd you know he didn't Jimmy told
01:43:38
me and I approached my father two years later he denied it I said Dad I know you
01:43:43
did it it was confirmed I know you did I know what you did but it's okay I love you it's all right I get it I understand
01:43:49
the life I get it what did Jimmy tell you told me your father threw you under the BT he didn't help you one bit it's
01:43:54
exact words he didn't help you one bit he hurt you in there tonight and you know it was
01:44:03
devastating have you forgiven him for that absolutely forgave him you know
01:44:10
something happens to you in that in that life you know it's it's like what's
01:44:15
right is wrong what's wrong is right you justify certain things but I understood cuz that night I mean what kind of
01:44:21
insanity to walk into a room when you think you're going to get killed or you think you might get that's your
01:44:26
perception whether it's real or not that's your perception okay people say why didn't you cut and
01:44:32
run robotic okay I was so consumed by the life
01:44:38
so this was me okay I'm gonna die tonight scared of course I was scared no
01:44:45
I'm not ashamed of it not at all I mean I know that door opened I almost fainted
01:44:51
probably I don't know I because I know a setup you know I walk in it would have been over quick so when that door was
01:44:57
going to open I I almost fainted but I can tell you this what I believe now as
01:45:02
a person of faith I strongly believe this that the way my life has turned out
01:45:08
now two things that bond between my dad and me had to be broken it had to be
01:45:14
broken and I had to realize in my life that I could face death if I had to
01:45:20
because when I walked away from that life now I didn't know I was going to walk away but when I walked away from that life you know contract on my life
01:45:26
my boss was very upset with me he took it very personal he was a tough guy he was an oldtime real tough guy and he
01:45:33
took it very personal you know walk away you don't walk away from this life we're not
01:45:38
allowed to do that my dad disowned me for a number of years till we patched it up when they realized I wasn't going to
01:45:45
be testifying against everybody because they thought I was okay this is what he's going to
01:45:51
do I wasn't interested that they thought I was going to go into the witness protection program and start hurting
01:45:56
guys left and right that's not what I was going to do never would have done that not not in a chance but they didn't
01:46:03
know because when guys walk away that's what they do do you think your dad loved you I know he loved me no question I I
01:46:11
tell you what the problem with my dad was his Legend in that life meant
01:46:16
everything to him I just can't Square the fact that he would allow you to walk into that room and not defend you with
01:46:21
the risk of you dying and at the same time he loves you I like
01:46:28
to think that maybe he didn't perceive it that way there was some other there was some other things playing you know
01:46:35
this is like uh it was like it's Shakespearean in a way my mother who I loved very difficult woman I I can tell
01:46:43
you this she had her issues for whatever reason but you know I think my mother
01:46:49
liked to be my father's wife for time I mean she got a lot of attention
01:46:55
right when I became prominent in that life a lot of the attention was not on
01:47:01
her and I think she she said some things to my dad you know that kind of maybe
01:47:08
got in his head a little bit about me maybe I hate to say this it doesn't sound right and I don't want people to
01:47:13
perceive that maybe there was a little jealousy or Envy there I don't know Steve you know I I've never talked like
01:47:20
this before and I I don't like to do it because it puts my my father in a very bad light but sometimes you can play on
01:47:26
somebody's mind so much you know especially a woman that he loved um and I know my mother loved me too figure
01:47:32
this one out there's no question my mother loved me but I can't explain what took what what dynamic they had going on
01:47:39
within them I don't know but uh maybe he there was some resentment there a little bit even
01:47:45
though face to face I never experienced that with him but then this happens in that room I don't know I don't think if
01:47:52
if my dad thought I was going to get killed that night I don't think he would have gone through it maybe he maybe he
01:47:59
was in on it you know I don't know maybe he said hey let's let's flush my son out I don't
01:48:04
know I don't know and and Jimmy wouldn't have known that the guy that drove me so I don't know how do you how do you
01:48:10
square all of this because one of the things I think all human beings love need regardless of how tough they are is
01:48:17
love yeah absolutely absolutely and
01:48:24
listen I I got my relationship with my dad was never the same especially after
01:48:30
I walked away uh you know when when we didn't speak for about 10
01:48:37
years and then when I got out of prison and he was on Parole and we realized he realized I wasn't hurting
01:48:44
anybody he said I want to see you called me I said okay he said I'm going to meet
01:48:49
you in such and such a place I said nope I'll meet you at the house your house not going anywhere to meet you Dad
01:48:56
almost a little mistrust there I'm going to be honest you know and so I go to see
01:49:02
him at uh I go to his house 5:30 in the morning CU I was on Parole had a record at that time I didn't know if I was
01:49:08
allowed to see him you know another violation he was on PE I was on PE why did you get to his house I knew my mom
01:49:15
was there and I'm in his house I don't have to worry about I wasn't going to go anywhere where somebody else could have been there you know and I knew my dad
01:49:22
wouldn't never do anything in his house that's my feeling so I seen him was 5:30
01:49:27
in the morning I opened the door and he's standing there arms folded he looks at me and his first words to me he said
01:49:34
if you would have listened to me you would have been the boss of the Columbo family and I looked at him I said Dad
01:49:40
are you in the Twilight Zone or something I said I serve a different Master right now and he looked to me and
01:49:47
he said do you mean this bible stuff is for real with you because I had turned Christian at that point I said yeah it's
01:49:52
for real he said okay let's talk and that's kind of how we broke the ice and we spent 3 hours talking and going over a lot of
01:49:59
the stuff that happened and you know some of the a anger I had in me I
01:50:05
expressed to him you know and some of the things he said you know he what he
01:50:11
said to me and I said him I said to him if you're UNC I said I'm not going back in
01:50:16
that life I said dead you see I I wasn't here to hurt anybody but if there's things that you don't want to express just don't tell me I don't want to hear
01:50:22
hear it I mean it was a very open hard conversation that he and I had but it was good cuz we came to an agreement and
01:50:30
terms after that you know one of the things Steve the about you know the the mob genre on social media is like people
01:50:37
talk and they say think they don't know what really went on with me and my dad and in our personal conversations and
01:50:43
all of that and you know well you know you never want to see your dad when your dad died you didn't go to you didn't go
01:50:49
to his funeral and I didn't go and I didn't go for a reason cuz number one I
01:50:54
knew who else was going to be there I'm not going to go there and be the center of attention or maybe have something
01:50:59
happen at my dad's funeral if somebody wants to make remarks for me and then we're going to it's going to be a bad
01:51:05
time in there I've respected my dad enough to do that I went to visit him privately I didn't need to make a show
01:51:10
or display out of it and actually people say to me Michael you better off not going you know you don't who knows if
01:51:16
there's going to be a scene because I'd walked away from that life other guys might have been friends of my father might have showed up and it could have
01:51:22
been confrontational I don't need to do that I'm not looking to put up put on a show you know so but guys make remarks
01:51:28
oh you didn't care about your father they don't know they don't know what went on personally between us none of their business this is probably the most
01:51:35
open conversation I've ever had about it publicly maybe at all I don't talk about
01:51:41
it what are the stories that you're unable to tell about your time in the
01:51:46
mafia you don't have to tell me the stories because you're unable to tell them but what are the nature of those stories that you're unable to tell cuz
01:51:51
you do a lot of interviews these days you're on podc you speak now you know I mean look it's like I
01:51:58
said there was a lot of guys that I knew that were gone you know just not there
01:52:03
any you know I'll give you an example was a guy that uh was around my dad then became around me I was his captain and
01:52:10
and uh he got involved in a drug deal with with somebody that was higher
01:52:16
up so he came to me I was at a funeral parlor and he came to me and he told me
01:52:22
what happened and I got mad I said Tony what is the matter with you you've been around all this how the heck did you let this
01:52:28
happen I said don't worry about it I'm going to straighten it out and we were
01:52:33
at a funeral of a guy that got killed and he said to me you couldn't straight that one out Michael I said don't
01:52:39
compare the two situations this was something else I said don't worry about it I'm going to handle it he said Mike
01:52:45
they're not going to walk me into a room I said it's not going to happen relax I
01:52:50
promise you I'll take care of you you've been around you're a good soldier you've been around a long time you got a lot of
01:52:56
respect don't worry about it you made a stupid mistake we'll clear it I get on my plane I go to Florida my movie was
01:53:02
being made down there and I go to Florida I get off the plane one of my guys calls me up he says mike you're not
01:53:09
going to believe this what he said Tony went into a foone booth and blew his brains out he was an old time I so
01:53:16
afraid he said I'm not going out nobody's going to take me out walking me into a room and he did it himself
01:53:22
so you see things like that in that life and it it's like you know I don't know
01:53:29
what to say you know how are you I'm good you know if I if your wife
01:53:35
is in a room over there in the Green Room over there in another building um if I were to ask her if I was if I were
01:53:41
to say what what are the type of type of things that Michael struggles with what would you say to
01:53:48
me well cuz if you ask my girlfriend that you'd get a laundry list so I imagine your wife would say you
01:53:56
know what do I struggle with in the family you know it's funny I'm on the street I got all this stuff going for me
01:54:02
in my house I'm just dad you know sometimes I get mad my kids take advantage of me I said I go out of my
01:54:07
way for all of you you don't do anything in return you know you guys don't appreciate anything I guess I still have
01:54:13
that you know I'm a pretty giving guy Steve you know I give you everything I can possibly give you just you don't
01:54:20
have to give it back to me just treat me right respect is a lot if I feel I'm
01:54:25
being disrespected I don't like it even to tell my wife sometimes she he struggles with you know the littlest thing he thinks it's disrespect can't
01:54:32
help it that's my nature you know I don't like that I have a guy now you know you're trying to call him up he doesn't call you back for two three days
01:54:39
that's disrespectful you know it's I don't like stuff like that I struggle with it because I see a lot of it around
01:54:46
around um you know I don't know what else when people come to you and they ask because you've been a speaker for
01:54:52
some time now mhm about two decades almost 25 years actually 25 years what are the key things that people approach
01:54:58
you to speak about based on your experience well it's a number I mean look everybody wants to hear the mob
01:55:03
story there's Intrigue with the mob story worldwide and I never realized that when I was in the life until I
01:55:10
became what I am now and all over the world people are fascinated with more than any other criminal group they're
01:55:16
fascinated with the mafia media why of course all the great movies you know Al Capone John Gotti bigger than life all
01:55:23
that stuff so there's a fascination with this life United Kingdom you know two tours there people they don't because
01:55:29
you don't have a mafia there you're lucky in that regard but so people want to hear that but then they want to hear
01:55:37
how that life has impacted me how I've been able to get out of it and still you know succeed in a way in their
01:55:43
perception I'm succeeding and um but you'll be surprised with this Steve
01:55:48
whenever I open it up for a Q&A which is awful you think you're going to hear all the mob questions you don't you know
01:55:53
what it is how did your wife react with you after being away so long how did you patch that up how did your kids react to
01:56:00
you how were you able to adjust you know did you feel you were doing the right thing how is your struggles people and
01:56:07
I'm saying to myself these people might be going through these same things in a different way and wow I came out of a
01:56:13
tough situation how did I make it can they apply it to their own lives people are struggling you know and I see it
01:56:20
more and more and more if I wanted to spend my time mentoring to people all
01:56:25
the time I would I would be overloaded just from social media and emails and
01:56:32
texts that I get and it's it's a good feeling don't get me wrong that people see something in me that maybe can be
01:56:38
helpful to them and I pursue it as much as I can as a matter of fact I'm starting a platform now I think it's
01:56:44
come to that point you know God has put it on my heart that maybe it's time to you know offer these people something
01:56:50
more than just the conversation and so we are starting a platform where we can create this kind of family or Community
01:56:56
where not only I can be of assistance but my team can and people can start to you know uh help one another I think we
01:57:04
need that more than ever we'll link that below if you if you are able to send me a link to that so people can check it
01:57:09
out I I understand why there is Intrigue I think a lot of people will be intrigued because the mafia you know I
01:57:16
as I said to you before we start recording I haven't watched mafia movies I don't really know anything about the mafia I've been enlightened today it's quite fascinating I feel like I'm going
01:57:21
to go watch of the movies but the thing that I found so compelling is just what I can learn from it because I think
01:57:27
everybody that's lived a anomalous life where they've done something different and they've walked a different path has
01:57:33
something different that they've learned that is also a fundamental truth IE regardless of what you've done um
01:57:40
whatever Divergent path you've taken you've learned a bunch of fundamental principles of how the world Works how people work how to navigate how to
01:57:47
survive um and some of those principles are super applicable to the today life I've learned so much about even business
01:57:54
the concept of having a sit down you know we don't in business we there's not enough cander there's not enough honesty
01:57:59
there's not enough Frank conversations in that regard there's lots of emails brainstorms this person's on annual leave we're going to talk on blah blah
01:58:06
blah but there's not enough of that frankness so those are the things that I really wanted to understand if you've got any more of those for me in terms of
01:58:13
how because you're a businessman now and you're an entrepreneur in this season of life and some of those principles that you learned from the mafia days must
01:58:20
still be absolutely well I'll tell you this and I'm sure this is a principle that you follow you don't look like a
01:58:26
micromanager to me well I don't know a good are you well I don't know I don't know do you know what the honest answer
01:58:32
is yeah the honest answer is I think and you can ask my team privately um actually Jack come over
01:58:39
here yeah yeah yeah no because I genuinely want to know the truth I want to know the actual truth does your
01:58:45
microman no Jack you come over oh if you got can you speak into that mic yeah it can pick you up yeah
01:58:51
okay Jack 100% honesty I think in some areas you can be a micromanager but I think in other
01:58:59
areas you're not and then I think when you need to be you are yeah I think I think I am and I'm
01:59:06
not and it's and it's a real dichotomy I.E and again this is just my opinion well I don't know if I've got the self-
01:59:12
awareness for this to be accurate but tell I okay I think that I'm obsessed
01:59:17
with the smallest details of a system and I like to understand the smallest details of a system system to some
01:59:23
degree and I think when I get to a point where I realize honestly this is what it is
01:59:29
that whoever's running that system can do it way better than me MH I resign to it and I don't I don't feel like I'm I'm
01:59:36
at all necessary and so this for example with this production there's nothing I
01:59:41
can tell Jack about cameras right there's zero I don't know anything about these bloody cameras or about what he
01:59:47
does in postproduction you want to know anything about it no good because because he's because I trust him but
01:59:53
there are instances with other team members or within other businesses that I run where I don't have the trust yet
01:59:59
and I've always said to my team and people don't like this but you can't fake trust TR trust for me is evidence
02:00:05
so like like what how do I describe this if I told you to believe that I was the spaghetti monster no matter how much you
02:00:12
wanted to will that and I said I'm going to give you a million dollars in cash right now if you believe I'm the spaghetti monster all of the evidence
02:00:17
you have says that I'm a human being I've got two arms two legs so all you could do is lie right but you wouldn't
02:00:22
actually believe it and I think trust is the same like if it's evidence you do or don't have I have so much evidence that
02:00:29
Jack doesn't need to be told anything about production because he's you know so that's kind of how my how my system
02:00:34
works so on one end I think a lot of my team and I've heard them say in interviews before that I've given them immense freedom in certain areas and
02:00:40
then in other elements I think I am I can be monarchal about detail and being the Leeds well my motto and it's worked
02:00:47
for me most of the time um when I'm when I'm really paying attention I'm older now I used to be a little bit different
02:00:53
when I was younger I was more Hands-On but I came to a conclusion early on um
02:01:00
you can't micromanage because when you micromanage you're taking yourself away from your best talent and the thing that
02:01:05
you can contribute to the best in your business and um so I always said do what
02:01:10
I do best delegate the rest and then hopefully you have the talent to motivate the people and get the most out
02:01:17
of them so it's it's it's a double sword double-edged sword do what you do best mhm delegate the rest but motivate
02:01:24
motivate them to the point where you're getting the most out of them that's critical that's critical because you
02:01:29
can't do everything well you know that no I know yeah you know and and and it's um you know and I always say this too I
02:01:37
tell people get your personal life in order because normally your business is going to be a reflection of your
02:01:42
personal life in some way shape or form and you can't do both you can't do one well and do the other not good because
02:01:48
they're going to affect one another so have your personal life in order be a reflection your business will be a
02:01:53
reflection of your personal life and if you can do that do what you do best
02:01:59
delegate the rest give your personal life in order your business will be a reflection to that and and you're going
02:02:04
to do okay I believe it Michael we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question
02:02:09
for the next guest not knowing who they're going to be leaving it for and the question that's been left for you is
02:02:15
what is one event conversation or experience that was your aha light bulb
02:02:21
that influenced or changed your
02:02:29
life look I think the unfortunately uh
02:02:34
you know these are defining moments and in the course of my life there's been more than one but uh really
02:02:42
two I I'll boil it down to two one was with my dad and during that time when he
02:02:48
proposed me into the life and the second one was with the pastor of the church
02:02:54
that married me that I hardly knew and when we going to get married in
02:03:00
that church I was with him and my wife and for some reason and I was still a
02:03:06
mob guy at that point I told my wife I said I want you to leave I want to speak to Dr Taylor Dr myin Taylor he was and
02:03:13
he was he was a pastor and I sat down with him and I said doc you don't know my background I said but I've done a lot of
02:03:20
bad things in my life was part of a rough lifestyle my wife is telling me you know I could be forgiven for these
02:03:27
things is it possible and he really opened up to me and it was a very
02:03:34
inspiring conversation because I really he such a good man I mean I got to know
02:03:39
and love this man he's passed on now but he married us but um and he was the one that filled me
02:03:47
with some hope that yeah well maybe maybe I can't turn this around
02:03:53
because up till then I I didn't know you know my wife was a Christian and I was marrying her and I respected her for her
02:03:59
faith but I wasn't buying into it you okay you know and my mother-in-law strong woman of Faith but I wasn't
02:04:05
buying into it myself CU I said they don't know who I am and then I had this
02:04:11
conversation and it planted the seeds to say you know what maybe there is something else maybe I can undo some of
02:04:19
the thing not undo them but change some of the things changed the path of my life had it and it was a short time
02:04:25
maybe half hour the most but meaningful and that's ultimately where
02:04:31
your life began to change yeah you found God yes or you found me one of the two I
02:04:38
don't know what is your closing message Michael you know it's it's a message um
02:04:45
hopefully of encouragement and hope you know to people that are struggling and facing challenges in their life and
02:04:53
you know you don't always be defeated by your past and you're not always defined
02:04:58
by your past you can change that in many cases not in every case but in many
02:05:03
cases and I think I'm an example of that and it's been inspiring to people
02:05:09
and it's extremely rewarding to me to know that I've been able to turn it around to a
02:05:16
point where it's been a positive influence on people so I like people to know that that's that's what motivates me to continue to speaking it's not
02:05:23
about you know it's about the way people react and you see that there's hope it's the emails the text the messages hey
02:05:30
you've inspired me you know you've you've given me hope and uh I want people to know that
02:05:37
you know you're not defined by your past all the time and you can make changes in your life I mean that's certainly one of
02:05:44
the very inspiring messages you leave me with is just this idea that in all of
02:05:50
our Lives it's going to come in seasons and we're able and um we have the
02:05:55
permission to change with the seasons we don't have to be fixed to an identity or to a past or to an old job title or to a
02:06:02
group of people we used to associate with at any time we can make the decision although it's not going to be fast
02:06:08
to become who we always were I guess you know I I as started this conversation asking you who you were yeah I I kind of
02:06:16
suspect you were you you're the same person you always were fundamentally but circumstances changed
02:06:23
beliefs have changed your who you're accountable has to has changed yes your
02:06:28
values have become refined you know and all these things but it's at the end of the day it's the same human being but
02:06:34
with a different sense sent of principles and purpose in their life and I look back at my life and it's the same
02:06:40
I haven't always been great I haven't always done good things there were tough Parts where I did things that I'm not proud of and probably wouldn't say on
02:06:46
camera too much but um I think that's really important I think the the best
02:06:51
thing for Humanity is that people have a chance to evolve and can be forgiven and move on and they're they're judged for
02:06:57
how they show up today your book is incredibly inspiring it's also incredibly fascinating um Mafia democracy by yourself and the forward on
02:07:04
here is from Rudy Giuliani which I thought was hilarious because I know that he was an enemy for much of your
02:07:09
careers and he was trying to destroy you give you a 100e sentence he was
02:07:14
instrumental in imposing some of the laws that shut down the mafia's Heyday as well and thank you for your honesty
02:07:21
because although I know it's not always easy to recount certain memories from certain chapters of our life in doing so you Enlighten us to the true nature of
02:07:28
what it is to be a human and um the complexities of what it is to be a human and all the forces that are in play in
02:07:34
all of us at all the all of the time um and that's inspiring but it's also liberating um because even though we've
02:07:40
walked very different lives you know there's so many similarities and so many lessons that I've learned from you so thank you Michael I appreciate you well
02:07:46
I appreciate that and I want to tell you I'm very inspired by you you know like I said I'm very impressed when somebody at
02:07:51
a young age has it together works hard and uh and reaches the level that you've
02:07:57
reached at a young age I mean it's very inspiring we need you know I hope you continue to be uh you know an example of
02:08:05
somebody that can just really put their head to the grind and make it and I've I've read up on you and I know that's what you've done you've created a great
02:08:12
great business here and just keep going thank you Michael okay thank you got it
02:08:20
[Music] oh [Music]