00:00:00
some of the greatest seducers who are not good looking at all what are the qualities of a great Seducer I'm
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revealing stuff I shouldn't be revealing Robert Greene is one of the best-selling authors in history an internationally
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renowned expert on power strategies and referencing songs by Jay-Z Kanye West
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and Drake written six International bestsellers that have become legendary why did you write a book about seduction
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seduction is in high form of power people will do what you want without ever even realizing seduction is a
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mating ritual you can't just swipe and get it but because of all the dating apps if you are able to understand the
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language of Seduction you're going to have so much more power and success than anybody else one thing about words is
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people can lie but body language it doesn't lie you master that language you can start deciphering all these people
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are giving you it's about psychology and it's about how you carry yourself if you feel confident it will naturally radiate
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through your gestures but what is real confidence and how does one build it confidence comes from
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you've talked about the topic of powers but in 2018 you had a stroke in that
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moment it sounds like your power had been taken from you the left side of my body is paralyzed and that was not easy
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I've got to find a strategy to deal with all this please understand that the ability that you have now to run to walk
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to type you can be taken away from you it's miserable please don't take it for granted
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foreign before we get into this episode just
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wanted to say thank you first and foremost for being part of this community um the team here at the diver Co is now
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almost 30 people and that's literally because you watch and you subscribe and you um leave comments and you like the
00:01:44
videos that this Show's been able to grow and it's the greatest honor of my life to sit here with these incredible people and just selfishly ask them
00:01:51
questions that I'm pondering over or worrying about in my life but this is just the beginning for the day of this year we've got big big plans to scale
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this show and to every corner of the world and to to diversify Our Guest selection and that's enabled by you by a
00:02:04
simple thing that you guys do which is to watch so if there's one thing you could do to help this show and to help
00:02:10
us continue to do what we do it's just to hit the Subscribe button if you like this show if you like what we do here if
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you watch these episodes please just hit that subscribe button means the world let's get on with it
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[Music]
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what do I need to know about you and your your earliest years to to understand the life that you went on
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that Journey you went on and the person you came to be well I grew up here in Los Angeles not far from where we are in
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a neighborhoods called Baldwin Hills and then we move to another neighborhood a very nice childhood very middle class
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family my father was a Salesman his whole life worked for the same company for 40 years just sold chemical supplies
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um and you know my parents kind of left me alone a lot I was basically my sister
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almost kind of raised me in a way and and you know I had a very nice childhood kind of left alone sort of an introvert
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books kind of shaped me I became an Avid Reader in early age no knew I wanted to be a writer got
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heavily into drugs I'm afraid in high school because that's that was the time and where I went to school and in
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college had some great experiences I looked very fondly back even on my drug experiences even though they got kind of
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depressing after a while but it kind of shaped me in in some ways
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and you know that was that was me growing up you know and if I had an attitude or a lens in which I looked at
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people from a distance like I was always sort of Obsessed with people wore masks and the way I
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looked at it even when I looked at my my parents and their friends and I said what is really going on behind their the
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masks that they were in all the social nice cities going on what is behind what is really the human
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animal like and so these are kind of the themes that that were make big part of my Me growing
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up from what I read you had a lot of different jobs and a lot of different Industries up until the point
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when you wrote um the first of your many books called the 48 Laws of Power back in 1998 and I
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was looking at all of these different jobs you'd had and they all seem to be completely different from one another so then trying to understand how you
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arrived at a moment where you then wrote a book on the topic and subject matter of power
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um having not been you know a psychology graduate or seemingly worked in any
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industry related to like human psychology seemed to be really peculiar to me
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yeah and also I never really had a lot of power up until that point so it wasn't like I knew everything about
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being a leader or anything um you know a lot of things that happen in life are kind of by coincidence or
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serendipitous you don't necessarily plan on it which is sort of when you look back on it you can see a kind of an odd
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plan going on like a Destiny or fate but in the moment I didn't feel that
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um I had all of these different jobs as you mentioned some of them completely unrelated you know I worked in
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construction I had a construction job I worked in the detective agency I was a
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tour guide to help write an encyclopedia I taught English in Spain you know on
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and on and on and on and on but I was searching I wanted to be a writer and a writer needs experiences
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I just was hungry for weird experiences you know I never really stuck at any one
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job and by the time you're 37 38 you know my parents are starting to worry about me I'm starting to worry
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about me I'm getting a little bit depressed even have moments for suicidal thoughts are floating in my brain like
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I'm very ambitious I know I could do something well but it's never come together and so here's the Serendipity
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part I'm in Italy for a job one of my 80 different jobs and I meet a man who's a
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book packager there on this particular job we're on and he's
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he's a Dutchman I'm not going to imitate him but he asked me if I had any ideas for a book
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and suddenly all of the painful experiences in my life working in Hollywood all the I've worked
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for all these weird politicking all the manipulative games all the crap that I had seen it just came like almost
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vomiting out of me and I said you know here we are it's 20 this was 19 20th
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century back then here we are in the late 20th century and people don't dress like they did in
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the days of Machiavelli right they don't wear wigs and stuff but it's the same damn thing it's the same bloody battles
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going on the same manipulations the same kind of you know people don't reveal who they are
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and it's a Timeless game of power just the same as Louis xivari Borgia or the people the CEOs in
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the late 20th century it says tout this Timeless thing and I as I'm telling him this his eyes are lighting he's wow this
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could be this could really be a book and you know he said look Robert I'll pay you to live
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while you write half the book and then we'll sell it and as I told you before I was desperate
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it was my get rich or die trying moment I went back to Los Angeles I borrowed
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money from my parents because I was that poor and I wrote a treatment and he loved it
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and that the rest is history that's sort of my long-winded answer to your question that's so interesting it's
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crazy how in life things can just take such a ton out of nothing and you never know
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what that thing is going to be and I mean you say the rest is history there give me an idea of the success of that
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book the 48 Laws of Power because I mean I've seen it everywhere for for as long as I've been looking at books so what's
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the give me some quantify the global success of that book quantify yeah
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well here in the U.S it's it's sold quite a bit over 2 million copies which
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is great and the weird thing is it's selling now more than it ever has sold
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before in other words the the percentage of books that we're selling here in 2023
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is greater than any period before so it's accelerating which is insane you
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know and even my English Publishers having the same uh is telling me the same stuff
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so it's kind of accumulated it it started off a little bit slowly I mean we got press but it became this kind of
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cult thing I've had very little publicity in mainstream media which was big back then it's not big anymore thank
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God but um it was word of mouth it's like if you
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heard about this book it's kind of dark blah blah blah blah it got on a few television shows there was this show a
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reality show with boxers I think it was called the contender in which the finalist held up a copy of the book and
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said this book helped me get to where I am now and it sold like crazy it got into the hip-hop stream you know Jay-Z
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was the first person I ever saw quoting the book in in print and in Playboy interview and then you know 50 Cent and
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all that and Drake and all these people that really kind of set it into the stratosphere so it's it's slowly become
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a bigger and bigger thing and um I had no idea you know I thought it was
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a weird book and it could be successful but I had no idea the journey I was about to begin it's it's weird that
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journey of writing this book has your have your feelings towards the book evolved or changed over time because
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Society moves on you move on as an individual as a human you learn new things you mature and then the book is
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kind of held in time not really um I I my philosophy in life is is never
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look back regret nothing you know it's it's there I did it it came in a
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particular moment in my life and in in the Zeitgeist and things have changed a
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little bit but I was it was a very serious effort to try and get it something Timeless now
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yes there's a dark side to it and maybe I've moved on from that and I did honestly when I wrote my fourth book
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mastery I was a little bit concerned that young people were getting to were thinking
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that the whole game of life is about politics manipulation so I wrote a book to kind of counter that
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but I I think the book is is true and it's held up I think
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if I look at business what's going on in the business world I kind of got I think
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I hit it on the nail about what goes on in the Dynamics and the power game you know I wrote a book on human nature
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and the idea is we were formed hundreds of thousands of years ago in particular
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circumstances our brains are wired a certain way yes we're very sophisticated
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yes we have the internet yes I'm here being interviewed by you on a podcast it's pretty insane but we haven't
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fundamentally changed the same raw emotions of Envy of aggression of of you
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know worrying about our status about having to disguise ourselves and appear
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like we're saintly and loving that we don't have a shadow which we all have
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none of that has changed so yeah I wouldn't write that book now because I'm
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at a different place in life and and I understand that but I have I don't I'm not ashamed of it in
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any way I stand by it and I think I hitted something real what is in your definition what is power
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you know I was really compelled when you're talking about the evolution evolutionary roots of power but like at its Essence what is power
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it's not what you think it is it's not you know Vladimir Putin or presidents or
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Biden or all these political figures and these big games Power is a feeling it's in essence it's an emotion it's a it's a
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human need and desire and really what power is is a sense of
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understanding yourself and and being able to control yourself so the way I
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look at it I like to look at it not through the lens of great power politics but as an average everyday human being
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here in the United States or in England the feeling that you have with your
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children with your spouse with your colleagues the people who work for you
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the sense that you have no control that you can't influence them with your ideas that you can't get them to maybe you
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know soften some of their ugly Behavior if they if they have that that you can't get them interested in helping you with
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a project or whatever is the most miserable feeling a human being can have Malcolm X out a quote that I love which
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is absolute power corrupts but absolute powerless corrupts even more
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I'm I'm butchering it but that was the gist of it the feeling of powerlessness
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is actually more corrupting than the feeling of having a lot of power you it makes it turns people into being
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passive aggressive into playing all kinds of weird games negative games to get power
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you want to feel that you have a degree of control over events in your life over
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people over your future and that to me is what a power is right and so some of
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that involves these games that I I mentioned in there and some of it goes beyond the 48 Laws of Power which I've
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tried to indicate in my other books but it's the sense that I'm not helpless
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in this world I remember when I first entered the work world as a very naive college graduate
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with all these ideals and things I'd read because I was studying literature and languages
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going man this is weird people are playing all these kind of games I mean over my head I made mistakes I got fired
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for being you know too Brash for outshine the master it was painful right
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and so learning you don't have to abuse the loss of power I don't Advocate crushing
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your enemy totally I hope I don't have any enemies ever that I need to crush ever
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you just need to know these things so that when you enter the work world you're not naive you're not stupid you
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don't make the same kind of mistakes that I made you spare yourself with pain you understand the most fundamental
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thing about human nature people have egos even your boss has an ego you think he
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he or she doesn't because they're powerful they have they're even more insecure than other people you need to
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be aware of these things so that you don't inadvertently make them feel insecure and suffer the consequences
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so um that's I don't know that's sort of my idea of power that I was trying to
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describe there the way you describe it is more of a sort of intrinsic um Force perception of yourself when
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people think of power they think of having control over others or their influence over others but you've kind of
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made it more of a internal Force yeah well if you can't control yourself then you're in a lot of trouble
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in this world right because when you just naturally are yourself doing things you're going to offend
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people you learn early on we're social animals I have to tailor my behavior you know if you go on babbling about all
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about how you feel and think Etc and you just say what's the first thing on your mind you're going to end up having a very very short career you're going to
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be saying things that are going to offend people you're going to be making a fool of your yourself you'd be saying things that you end up regretting right
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so you have no self-control and if you see somebody who has no self-control it makes them it makes you
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look like you're not powerful if you can't control yourself how can you control anything in your environment how
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can you be a leader right so you have to learn certain things about about your nature
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about who you are and and not just just be anybody you have to kind of tailor
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your appearances as well because for good or for bad I'm a
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Believer in looking at the human animal without shame and embarrassment just as
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we are right and appearances matter it's the animal part of our nature we we're
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we look at we look we judge people by how they how they how they appear how they dress their tone to voice their
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body language etc etc it would be in an Ideal World
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we wouldn't judge people by appearances we just judge them by what's inside of them yes I agree with that but that
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we're not ideal we're not descended from Angels we're descended from primates so
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you have to understand that appearances matter and this is part of of the game
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and so you have to control your appearances a little bit you have to tailor it you have to be a bit of actor in this world
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on and on and on you know these are things that people don't like to admit about ourselves we
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like to think that we we're much more have much more idealistic that we're that these things really don't matter in
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the end and I wish it were that way but it's not and so um I'm a bit more of a realist
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when it comes to things like that but yeah as you were talking about this
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need to keep up appearances to some degree in order to survive and to fit into the the tribes that we form in our
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lives it made me think about how many guests I've had on this podcast who work in maybe the entertainment industry or
00:18:00
other Industries yeah you know they're famous whatever and they report that
00:18:05
Keeping Up Appearances had a really detrimental impact on their happiness and their fulfillment in life because in
00:18:12
some cases they you know it meant that they were doing a job as a presenter and had to always be happy when inside they
00:18:17
didn't feel that and maybe the contrast of reality and um and perception caused them a lot of
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harm or they've built a life around things that they're not interested in I think you touched on some of that in Mastery yeah
00:18:28
um that's the that's the question I have which is keeping up appearances and the impact that that has on your happiness are you wearing a mask
00:18:35
um and happiness what's the relationship I talk about it in the 48 Laws of Power
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where you have to play this this game in life it's a con to me it's a form of wisdom
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which is it's a wisdom that used to exist like in the 18th century I read a book that had
00:18:54
a big impact on me many years ago called the fall of public Man by Richard Senate
00:19:00
in which he described like Cafe life in London in the 18th century or France and
00:19:08
he was saying back then when you entered the public Arena or your Cafe you knew you were an actor you left the house you
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put on the mask and you had fun you know you knew it was like fun it was play you
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know when you're a child you like playing games you like putting on costumes you like playing your parents
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or some character you saw on TV it's part of human nature we like to play these games where role players we're
00:19:33
actors and he was saying in the 18th century that was just a given in life that when you entered the public realm
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you knew you were an actor and then when you went home to your wife your family or your husband
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or wherever you drop the mask you went you breathe the Deep Side relief go now I can be who
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I am right and and it wasn't a problem it didn't create neuroses it didn't
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create this like what's wrong with me I'm I don't know who I am anymore so people now the problem now is we
00:20:04
don't have distance from that social realm and so we think that if we're
00:20:09
acting that's who we are but it's not it's just that's part of being a social animal is playing a role you know I did
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a book with 50 Cent and he kind of exemplifies a lot of that
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he plays a role in life you know when I met him I I thought uh oh
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I was kind of intimidating I was a little bit afraid you know the thug this is a guy when I met him he was you know
00:20:34
just a few years away from being shot and all this stuff and I met him
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and he was the nicest person well he was almost kind of sweet he'd hate it if I said that word but he was sweet right he
00:20:46
was very down to earth he was very calm Etc he's playing a role when he goes out
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and he plays that person he knows it he knows it's like he doesn't take it seriously you know he had this big beef
00:20:58
with Kanye West back when I was doing the the the book with him and then I met
00:21:04
the two of them in Vegas when they were there for the awards they were like the best of friends they were joking it was just a game they were playing right so
00:21:11
what I tell people is we all are actors humans are born actors we learn at a
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very early age to play that kind of game it's kind of fun sometimes to do that
00:21:23
you know have it enjoy that part of life but don't think that it don't get confused with who you are in your
00:21:30
essence that's sort of the dance you're playing between those two things I understand
00:21:35
what you're saying and a lot of it has to do as you said related to Mastery where people end up in a career
00:21:42
that doesn't suit them and I look I I think I understand what
00:21:47
you're getting at or I look at like presenters or people in the news and they have to smile and be so cheerful
00:21:54
like man what a drag I'd hate to be like that you know that is so false don't you
00:22:00
feel kind of don't you want to take a shower after you being so cheerful and chatty and all that you know yeah I
00:22:06
understand that but if if that's the profession you chose and you love it then maybe you
00:22:12
don't feel that way I couldn't do it personally but you know I think I think it's okay
00:22:19
think of yourself as an actor I don't think there's anything wrong about that um the second very curious lower in your
00:22:26
book that I uncovered was it was low number two I'm talking about the 48 Laws of Power here where it says never trust
00:22:31
friends too much learn how to use enemies yeah do you trust your friends
00:22:38
okay well everything in the book is context so when you take things out of context it's a little harder to
00:22:44
understand and what I'm trying to say in that I'm talking about in the Work World when
00:22:50
you're out in the social realm and one of the worst things that people do is you have a job and I've been guilty of
00:22:58
it myself even after I wrote the damn book you're out in the work world and you need to hire somebody you need to find a
00:23:04
colleague you need to find some a partner or an employee your mind naturally gravitates towards a
00:23:11
friend right because they know you you trust them you have a relationship you
00:23:17
know and you feel comfortable with them and it's a terrible mistake so many of the worst things have
00:23:23
happened in history are because of that very problem because friends is there's all these
00:23:30
emotions involved between people right and those emotions confuse the issue so
00:23:35
what I'm talking about in that law is when you need to get results you need to think when you have a job or something
00:23:41
you have to think in Practical terms not in terms of emotions not in terms of friendship etc etc
00:23:49
so you want to keep your work world separate it's not everything about life is having
00:23:55
to be friends and having nice things and everybody like you sometimes what matters is getting
00:24:01
results done and sometimes the best person to work with isn't your friend because they don't have all this other
00:24:07
stuff that we're talking about in fact a very powerful move is if there's an
00:24:13
enemy out there somebody who you never got along with
00:24:19
if you say if you approach them and say let's bury the hatchet you know I have a
00:24:25
job and I'd really like you to work with me I know you're really smart that per the turnaround of emotions is a
00:24:31
very powerful thing where they're going wow yeah sure that's that's great I
00:24:37
never expected that and they're all they're highly motivated to now prove that they're worthy of of your of your
00:24:44
change of mind so it's not about not trusting your friends
00:24:50
in the realm of friendship in personal relationships it's about being aware
00:24:55
that the work world is different from the realm of personal relationships the other point I found really curious was
00:25:01
was put 0.3 about concealing your intentions and yeah I I find this curious because I've never really known
00:25:07
where to land on this when people ask me for advice on the subject matter about how much of your hand should you show
00:25:14
whether it's in business or life or whatever there's a there's a group of people that think you should always just
00:25:19
keep everything you're doing and your intentions totally secret because then people might copy you or they'll attack
00:25:24
you whatever and then there's another school of thought that says when you're building something when you're doing something when you have a mission you
00:25:29
need to share it with as many people as possible because that will Galvanize people to to come along with the journey with you and they'll want to support you
00:25:35
and help you so when I read um Point number three about concealing your intentions I wanted to ask you about what what you
00:25:44
think about that which side do you land on well everything depends on circumstances so the laws are never
00:25:50
meant to apply to every situation right so when it's with your own team and
00:25:56
you're trying to inspire them and you're trying to give them a vision you try to get them on your side yeah you share your vision with them you share this is
00:26:02
where the group is going this is where I want things to be in three years let's all get together we're trying to do
00:26:09
something very positive for the world okay here we here's my plan right but
00:26:14
then there's circumstances where revealing everything that you about what you're planning to do is actually very
00:26:20
counterproductive right so the business world in the 21st century is extremely
00:26:27
competitive it's getting worse and worse by the day as more and more people now are entering the power Arena and I think
00:26:34
it's a great thing where it used to be just a realm where only older white men had power and now it's the doors have
00:26:40
opened everyone the comp level of competition is that much more intense particularly now even with the internet
00:26:47
you have Rivals out there you have competitors out there even as we talk right now maybe you're not thinking
00:26:53
about them but they are they're going to steal your ideas they're looking to take your business away from you
00:26:59
etc etc just be aware of that phenomenon and just always saying what you're
00:27:04
planning on doing isn't always the wisest thing to do sometimes if you're
00:27:10
in a tricky situation making putting people off the scent giving them a red herring and saying I'm
00:27:16
planning to do this when in fact you're planning to do that it's very powerful technique it's deception but all's fair
00:27:23
in Love and War and business I'm I'm afraid so you know there are moments
00:27:29
where you don't want to lay all your cards out on the table right you want to either create a little bit of mystery so
00:27:37
that people don't know what you're going to do next and they're wondering what you're going to do next and as they're wondering what you're
00:27:43
going to do next they're kind of on their heels a little bit what's the next thing that that Stephen is planning I
00:27:50
don't really know wow you know it makes it it's a very powerful approach there
00:27:55
are other times and other experiences and moments in life where you do want to reveal what you're planning to do
00:28:01
because there's a purpose behind it I'm just saying be aware don't just act in
00:28:07
this world be aware have a strategic mindset sometimes concealing is what you
00:28:12
need to do sometimes not concealing is what you need to do it's funny when we have this conversation about power and
00:28:18
the Darkness and the Shadows that people have in them I think a lot of people listening
00:28:24
and probably it seems that way because I'm the one asking the questions is if I'm questioning society that I'm not
00:28:30
part of um they'll think they don't they might think they don't play these games right they might you know so that's the
00:28:36
question I have is like have you ever encountered anybody do you believe there's anybody out there that doesn't play power games manipulation have
00:28:43
shadows have darkness in them no I don't but um so in my War Book uh I I read the
00:28:51
biography of Mahatma Gandhi well the Saint Louis figures in history right
00:28:57
and I realized that Mahatma Gandhi was actually a brilliant strategist now I'm
00:29:03
not saying his use of non-violence and Civil Disobedience didn't come from the heart he didn't mean it he wasn't
00:29:09
actually he didn't actually believe in the peaceful method he did it was very sincere but he was very strategic about
00:29:17
it and he planned a campaign several campaigns like the Salt March in the 20s
00:29:23
where he knew for instance that the English public was very liberal-minded
00:29:29
they had this idea of themselves as being this very they weren't colonialists they weren't imperialists
00:29:35
they were doing the best for the world and he deliberately had these marches where he knew that that on they would be
00:29:42
reading in their newspaper and seeing photographs of Indian people being beaten up by Englishmen and and their
00:29:50
Indian officers on the streets of wherever it would have a terrible impact on the
00:29:56
public he thought in terms of strategy okay so there's Gandhi then there's
00:30:01
Martin Luther King who's somebody I wrote about a lot in the laws of human nature another great icon whom I admire
00:30:08
who actually was inspired by Gandhi and had campaigns of Civil Disobedience and
00:30:13
there was a campaign I believe it was in Montgomery or Selma Camp which remember which one
00:30:18
where um he was getting fed up they weren't getting very far the Civil Rights moved they're reaching a stale
00:30:24
mate and he was getting very frustrated and um somebody an advisor came to him said
00:30:31
look we're going to have this massive March and and I I can get a lot of
00:30:36
Elementary School and Junior High School students to be on this March because they believe in you and they're very
00:30:42
fervent and I think it'd be great and his advisors go God you can't do that
00:30:48
you can't have put 13 year olds at risk and Martin Luther King thought about
00:30:53
Virgin he said no we're going to go ahead and do it because damn it I want the American public sitting in there all fat and
00:31:00
watching their televisions to see these brutal you know Paul Connor the the
00:31:05
police chief then I want to see these children being water hosed and beaten and it's going to have
00:31:12
an incredible impact he was being strategic and his advisors were shocked by it but it ended up proving to be one
00:31:19
of the most pivotal important moments in the Civil Rights Movement so here you have Gandhi and Martin Luther King I'm
00:31:25
never and Martin Luther King was a flawed individual as we know right he had a private life that wasn't exactly
00:31:32
in the same as his public life I don't judge him for that because he was a brilliant man and I admire him I
00:31:38
love him deeply reading his biography made me even admire him even more seeing
00:31:43
that he had a human flaw outside to him but these are icons that we set up and
00:31:49
they reveal what I'm talking about in human nature you can't escape it but yeah maybe there
00:31:55
was some Saint born in some Century that I've never heard of that maybe got pretty far away from everything I've
00:32:01
talked about but you know you know we all have this idea like
00:32:07
in the laws of human nature I write about irrationality Envy aggression we go or narcissism narcissism is a good
00:32:14
one oh they're a narcissist I'm not a narcissist I'm not self-absorbed but
00:32:20
they are yeah yeah I don't have any of those traits well damn it every single
00:32:25
human being has self-absorption traits we can't help it we naturally think of ourselves first yes there are people who
00:32:32
are much deeper narcissists in life no doubt and there are toxic narcissists but we all have a touch of it I want you
00:32:40
to be a little more humble in this world and not be so arrogant and not think that you are somehow exempt from having
00:32:47
a dark side that somehow you were born with a halo over your head that you were
00:32:53
born different you don't have human nature that you're a saintly person you're much better get rid of your moral
00:32:59
superiority because I find that deeply offensive we are all Cut From the Same Cloth we all have the same flaws and
00:33:06
when you look at yourself and when I wrote the laws of human nature I'm going damn it Robert
00:33:11
you have a dark side you're a narcissist you know I had to come to terms with my
00:33:17
irrationality my grandiosity my aggressive instincts but it's the only
00:33:23
way to change yourself is to be aware that you have these issues I have the narcissistic Tendencies now I
00:33:30
see it all right now when they prop up pop up I can control it better I can say damn Robert you're being too
00:33:36
self-absorbed you think more about the other person but if you go around in life thinking I don't have any of these
00:33:42
problems I'm not a narcissist you're never going to have the awareness to stop the fact that you are actually one
00:33:49
being a narcissist is that objectively a good or a bad thing because when you when you was obviously I know people are
00:33:56
having a bad thing it's a narcissist cause a lot of harm and that's very true but in the context of the human animal
00:34:01
and why the human animal develops certain attributes and qualities to to you know maybe further it survival or
00:34:07
its ability to stay within the social pact is it just a consequence of being a
00:34:13
human to have these like Shadow traits and to be coercive and manipulative is
00:34:18
it good or is it bad or is it neither it's neither neither
00:34:24
um because it just is right um so with narcissism for instance
00:34:32
um there's a reason why we're narcissists so I explained in the book it's not my own Theory it comes from
00:34:39
some great psychologists like kahoot the origins of narcissism right so when
00:34:45
you're have to leave you when your parents have to kind of not abandon you but have to
00:34:50
not give you as much attention as you used to have and you're three years old or four years old
00:34:56
you don't remember it but it was very painful like oh they don't love me as much
00:35:01
what's wrong with me right you know I have to get that love and attention not
00:35:07
just naturally I have to do things to earn it etc etc and what happens with a lot of
00:35:13
people in that situation when you're a child is I have to develop my own I have to be my
00:35:19
own mother or father I have to find a way of loving myself when something bad happens I have to
00:35:26
retreat Inward and go I'm really not so bad at all I'm actually a decent person
00:35:31
I like my own tastes I like the clothes that I wear etc etc you're developing
00:35:37
the shreds of self-esteem right and people who never develop that because
00:35:43
they were abused or they were abandoned or even if they were suffocated
00:35:49
never developed that self-esteem and so what happens in life is whenever if you
00:35:55
don't develop that and you get older and people attack you and yell at you or
00:36:00
criticize you you can't Retreat inward to that self-esteem that love you have
00:36:06
the only thing you know is to get angry to get the call it narcissistic rage and to yell at people and say God get away
00:36:12
from me you're evil etc etc etc right and then the other problems evolve where
00:36:18
the only way I don't have that inner self-esteem the only way I get people to love me is by being incredibly dramatic
00:36:24
and overly dramatic Etc et cetera et cetera and always making myself the center of attention that's what creates
00:36:32
a deep narcissist that's their only way of getting the love that they need so
00:36:37
children we all need that degree of self-esteem that anchor in our life so
00:36:43
narcissism self-love is not a bad thing but what happens is as you get older if
00:36:50
you go too deep into it it becomes a problem and so what I say is you need to
00:36:55
take that self-love and it's it has a good function and turn it outward slow
00:37:01
as much you can and turn into empathy and love and consideration for other people more that's your task as you get
00:37:08
older in life that's how I approach all of these flaws you can't run away from
00:37:13
them you can't run away from your Shadow your dark side you can make it work for you can make it positive and productive
00:37:19
and healthy you can become a healthy narcissist which is a a name that I use
00:37:25
in the book you can use your dark side for positive purposes
00:37:31
let's say you have a lot of anger in your inside and I had a lot of anger when I was younger I was a very angry
00:37:37
young man right channel that into some kind of cause
00:37:43
like and you know that I have a lot of causes that I believe in very deeply and when I was younger I was like that
00:37:49
channel that energy into something productive and helpful and put it into something that goes to something that
00:37:56
helps Society that's using your dark side for positive purposes because the
00:38:02
Dark Side Of Human Nature has a lot of creativity has a lot of energy an artist
00:38:07
has to have a dark side you use your dark side because all those dark emotions all the people that shat on you
00:38:14
in your life they inspire you they create your best work don't run away from your Shadow don't run away from
00:38:20
your narcissism use it in a healthy way and acknowledge it I think that's the
00:38:26
hardest thing for people to do right yeah so few people I think including myself like have really fully understood what
00:38:33
their their shadow in their dark side is I mean doing this podcast has really helped me because I learn things from other people vicariously and then I look
00:38:39
at reflect on myself or keeping a diary has helped me to understand that but that first step in someone having the
00:38:45
self-awareness to understand their dark side I mean there's even a lot of people who confronting their Dark Side would be
00:38:51
so it feels like it would be so impactful on their self-esteem in a negative sense that they spend their
00:38:56
life putting up a wall to never go there I mean there's some people who you even mention something to them and they would
00:39:03
triggers triggers them yeah you know we can all think of those people um
00:39:09
we can all think of those people that the really interesting thing there is the role that your early years play on your relationship with power
00:39:15
because when I think about some of the nicest I don't know if this is just a general a stereotype or a narrow
00:39:22
observation I've had but some of the nicest people I've met in terms of you know being the opposite of whatever and
00:39:29
toxic narcissist is seem to have really comfortable loving secure safe early
00:39:38
experiences and then is that is that broadly true in your view
00:39:44
it's a generalization but there is is some truth to it I mean there's things
00:39:49
that called attachment theories where uh psychologists have looked at the kind of attachment you had to your parents and
00:39:56
they categorized it in four different ways and there's the ideal the best one where you have this
00:40:02
incredibly loving mother and father and they they're they're giving you
00:40:07
unconditional love but they know also how to give you your Independence Etc it's not terribly common I don't know
00:40:14
what the percentage would be then there's levels and levels and then as you get to the fourth level it's like the abandonment one where or abusive and
00:40:23
abandonment where you basically leave the child alone you don't give it any attention any love and it's very
00:40:28
crippling right but the thing is children are much stronger than we think
00:40:36
they are they're very resilient they're very resourceful they're gonna find their love they're
00:40:42
going to find a way to compensate for it in some way and what's something very interesting when I was doing seduction
00:40:49
in some of my other books and I look at people who were like very charismatic like a Malcolm X like a Marilyn Monroe I
00:40:59
could go on and on and on these are people that came from very very bad
00:41:04
families right they had no love Marilyn Monroe was a was an orphan essentially raised in an
00:41:11
orphanage you know her whole life was I gotta get people to love me I need love
00:41:17
so desperately and her way of doing it was to literally make love with the
00:41:22
camera nobody ever done that before you could sense that she needed it and it was so powerful that you sensed it that
00:41:29
she drew it to herself great charismatic individuals John F
00:41:34
Kennedy is someone who had a lot of Charisma he came from a very bad childhood right his father was very mean
00:41:41
to him Etc some children in the worst circumstances it ends up bringing the
00:41:46
best out of them they have to find their way in life and some people who have everything
00:41:52
don't go very far because they don't know how to find things for themselves so life is weird some people who have
00:41:59
great childhoods do well some people have great childhoods are spoiled and never learn how to get things on their
00:42:05
own and some people have the shittiest childhoods learn how to be resourceful and and and and and get what they need
00:42:11
on their own you mentioned seduction there The Art of Seduction why did you write a book about
00:42:18
the topic of Seduction seduction is in a high form of power
00:42:24
because you make people feel pleasure you make them feel excited or interested
00:42:31
in you and then their their resistance to your ideas slowly lowers and you have
00:42:37
the ability to influence them and to move them in the direction that you want if you yell at them like how we talk
00:42:42
about your child and you tell them do this do that they resent it and for good reason
00:42:47
but if you're subtler if you're more seductive in your approach if you're more indirect
00:42:53
people will do what you want or go in your direction without ever even realizing it so it was a sub theme in
00:43:00
the 48 Laws of Power and so I was sort of interested in the psychology of that and why some people are good at it and
00:43:06
some people are awkward about it so when I finish the 48 Laws of Power I thought this would be
00:43:12
a natural segue the next book what are the qualities of a great Seducer
00:43:21
well I like to distinguish between cold seducers and warm seducers a cold
00:43:26
Seducer is something you don't want to be that's the typical image that we might have of a male Seducer but even of
00:43:33
a female Seducer like the great courtesy set up or they're just after money or the men are just after sex
00:43:39
that's not my ideal my ideal is kind of a back and forth quality
00:43:46
where it's not domination it's sort of like a game that you're playing it's like a mating game it's like a courtship
00:43:53
ritual where both part people are kind of seducing each other and so what makes
00:43:58
for a great Seducer is very simple I can summarize it very simply you are outer
00:44:04
directed so when you meet somebody for the first time or you're on a date
00:44:10
or whatever it is you're not having that internal monologue going does she like me or does
00:44:16
he like me am I dressed well am I saying stupid things what can I do to impress
00:44:21
them no you turn it off and you're out or directed and you're listening to them
00:44:26
and you're entering their spirit and you're hearing them say things that that
00:44:32
give you idea of what they're missing in life of what they want of what their needs are of what makes them an
00:44:38
individual you're absorbing it you're entering into their spirit and then you can reflect it
00:44:43
back to them you can give them gifts you can take them to places that show that you're attentive to them
00:44:50
because if you look at how we are in our day-to-day life normally people never pay us attention
00:44:57
they're always so self-absorbed they're never thinking about us I mean the times where you get the sense
00:45:03
that people are actually interested in who you are as an individual is pretty rare
00:45:09
if you give that feeling to someone it's incredibly powerful because we all want to be validated we all want to be
00:45:15
recognized so what the Seducer is not someone who's all worried about him or herself and
00:45:22
thinking they're involved in the other person they're absorbed like a sponge inside their psychology inside their
00:45:29
world a lot of this is you know very applicable to romance and dating
00:45:35
etc etc it fails for whatever reason I you know not necessarily something I've read much about in your work but it
00:45:40
feels like dating and romance and relationships have become
00:45:46
much more complicated in the modern world that it's become much more difficult to seduce somebody
00:45:53
um what is the what are the attributes of someone then that is not good at seducing
00:45:59
anti-seducer has many qualities I have a whole chapter on the anti-seducer I try
00:46:04
and Define it uh there there are several of them I can't I don't have them all memorized but one quality that's very
00:46:10
anti-seductive is preaching and moralizing is like telling people oh that's wrong
00:46:17
what you just said or your politics are ugly or you're not a really you're not really good at this or something or
00:46:23
other having a moral superiority a sense of sanctimonious sanctimony in a realm
00:46:29
which should be about pleasure where should be that kind of equality that kind of dinette back and forth Dynamic
00:46:35
where you're asserting your moral superiority is deeply deeply anti-seductive the element of preaching
00:46:41
to people not being generous and I mean not just with money money is
00:46:48
important but not being generous with your spirit right you want to be open you want to give as
00:46:55
much as you can to the other person of yourself of your time of your money of
00:47:00
your energy Etc so being all kind of crimped and I don't want to give I don't want to spend money
00:47:07
I want to take you to the cheap place to eat I don't want to give you much time is very very anti-seductive when you're
00:47:15
talking a second ago about the person who goes on the day and they're thinking about themselves and what they you know
00:47:20
what their hair looks like or whatever else that spoke to an insecure person
00:47:27
is insecurity a seductive quality or is it a
00:47:32
anti-seductive quality it is anti-seductive now there is a part of weakness that is seductive
00:47:40
so I would say vulnerability is seductive but insecurity is anti-seductive and there's a big
00:47:46
difference why does vulnerability draw people to you because the sense so if I can Define seduction
00:47:54
in in in simple terms um most of the time we are closed to the
00:48:01
influence of other people particularly now we have these walls up because life
00:48:07
is Harsh people are coming at us with their advertisements with their pleas with their wanting money with this than
00:48:12
the other and we've all learned to be very defensive right and seduction is an
00:48:18
openness is the opposite of that and you felt it when you were a child towards your parents you felt very vulnerable
00:48:25
and open and and there was an element of your parents and how they treated you that was very much like a seduction
00:48:31
right so seduction is about being open to the other person to the extent where
00:48:36
you can even fall in love you can fall under their spell and the sense of letting go of your ego letting go of
00:48:43
your defensiveness and letting other another person enter your world is being
00:48:49
seduced it requires vulnerability if you meet the typical
00:48:54
um scenarios of a man who's not vulnerable at all he's so
00:49:00
powerful and in control and everything has no vulnerabilities it's frightening
00:49:05
you know for a woman it could be very frightening like this he's he's so
00:49:11
strong he's so invulnerable that there's something wrong about it you know maybe he's a serial killer maybe he's got
00:49:17
skeletons in his closet something isn't right about that what what seduces you
00:49:22
about a puppy about a child about an animal is their vulnerability it makes
00:49:28
you want to hug them it makes you want to help them right the sense which If You Came Upon A a tiger that's there and
00:49:35
that they don't need that well that's not seductive I mean on your screen it is but if they're there in your living
00:49:40
room that's not seductive but that puppy is Right vulnerability the sense that
00:49:47
somebody needs protection or help brings out qualities in us that we don't
00:49:52
normally have that I think allow for seduction so that is being vulnerable
00:49:57
that is I can be influenced by that other person I am open to the to their Spirit right
00:50:06
that's being vulnerable the word vulnerable I hate to sound like a professor so excuse me in seduction it
00:50:13
comes from the wrong the root of it means a wound vuleness so you have a
00:50:19
wound inside of you and you need healing and the other person naturally wants to help you right but being insecure is the
00:50:27
off means I'm so self-absorbed I'm so worried about myself
00:50:32
that I can't get out of it and we've all had that experience when you meet
00:50:38
somebody and they and you can sense you can smell their insecurity in them I'm not judging them because we all have
00:50:43
insecurities it makes you feel insecure it makes you feel a little bit awkward whereas if you
00:50:50
meet someone who's not like that who's confident Etc it brings out that quality in you so if you're on a date and
00:50:56
there's someone who's you smell that kind of insecurity it makes you awkward and insecure it creates a kind of a
00:51:02
problem so that would be the difference between the two there's going to be a lot of people
00:51:07
listening to this that are single and ready to mingle
00:51:13
um what advice would you give them in terms of being great at dating you've talked about the importance of
00:51:19
vulnerability there and how that kind of forms connection between humans in a very innate way what else is great
00:51:25
dating advice for this for the single people out there well the thing is okay there are several
00:51:31
things so first of all we live in a culture where people think you don't you
00:51:37
shouldn't have to put effort into something like love and romance you should just be who you are man I don't
00:51:43
have to put on a rule I have to play a game that's manipulative no I'm sorry
00:51:50
love and romance is something that is almost biological if you look at animals and mating
00:51:56
rituals they're incredibly elaborate seduction is a mating ritual and so the
00:52:02
worst thing you can feel is that this person isn't putting any effort into something
00:52:08
let's just say it's it's uh it's from the woman's point of view this man he just shows up wearing jeans and his
00:52:15
usual sloppy outfit he doesn't come's hair etc etc etc
00:52:20
he takes me to the pub for dinner on our first date you know he's not thinking about me he's
00:52:27
not willing to put any effort into it if he's not willing to put any effort into it what's it going to be like three months
00:52:34
down the line when he completely takes me for granted which is what happens in a relationship am I not important enough
00:52:40
right whereas the ability to have a little bit of effort to think of it as
00:52:47
kind of theater and drama and that there's nothing evil about it so I'm going to dress nicely I'm gonna I
00:52:54
just have to be fancy just that I'm gonna you know I'm gonna put some effort into how I look I'm going to take her to
00:53:01
a place that isn't is you know I'm not talking about candlelights and roses and
00:53:06
that kind of crap doesn't that you can be creative it can be somewhere that that's scuzzy that's on the wrong side
00:53:12
of town but it's different and it's appealing to and you put some thought into it there's a reason you're taking
00:53:18
her there right I have a friend who went on a date and she came back from the
00:53:24
date and was complaining because the person that she date went on that first
00:53:30
date with was using a took it to a spot where he had an available valid discount code
00:53:38
and and talk about anti-seduction there you go why is that anti-seductive in
00:53:44
that case one might say that male is being you know economically Savvy
00:53:49
financially savvy that you know if you're not able to let go of your of your kind of tightness
00:53:57
when it comes to a woman something's wrong with you man just let go spend
00:54:02
some extra money spend the extra 10 quid that you might need to spend on taking you to someplace different but it
00:54:09
signals a kind of cheapness and it's not about money it's about a cheapness in your spirit
00:54:14
right she's not worth you know letting go okay maybe you don't
00:54:20
have that much but my God you have enough it's not gonna like if you're that poor then then you know okay maybe
00:54:27
but probably not you could afford it show that you that it means something to
00:54:32
you let seduction is a language it's not a language of words it's a language of
00:54:39
gestures that we're paying attention to we're paying attention to people's body language we're paying attention to their
00:54:46
actions to the things that they never say so when you signal that
00:54:53
discounts are so important to you that even on the first date you have to have a discount
00:54:58
you're signaling that it's not there's something tight about you in your nature and it's not very pleasant I from doing
00:55:05
this podcast and speaking about topics like love and sex and dating and you know dating apps even one of the um
00:55:12
comments I saw quite frequently was from young men who are struggling to seduce a
00:55:21
woman yeah or vice versa um specifically young men that you know
00:55:27
and then I read some stats I think Scott Galloway came on the podcast and talked about how I'm gonna butcher these numbers but a
00:55:33
staggering amount of men haven't had sex and the young men haven't had sex in the last 12 months
00:55:38
um and then when I looked at the comments section specifically on YouTube I saw I kind of saw that energy
00:55:44
reflected where it looked like young men in particular were struggling to seduce
00:55:49
a mate a partner in the modern world is is that real in your view is there is
00:55:57
there something that has changed in society has that always been the case um is there anything we can do if we're
00:56:03
a young man that's struggling in the modern world because of the internet and computers and this and dating apps and
00:56:09
well a lot of it is I'm afraid to say is internet porn where you get the idea that you know sex
00:56:17
is something that should be very easy and quick and that women should have look how that kind of body and physique
00:56:24
etc etc and that becomes your Norm Etc that can be that can be very
00:56:29
damaging but the idea that things must come easy and quick is is very prevalent
00:56:35
and to win over someone like oh say you're a man it's a woman who might be
00:56:41
reluctant to have sex for good reason or reluctant to have a relationship
00:56:46
requires some effort it requires some thinking you can't just hack well you can't just swipe and get it you can you
00:56:54
can have your internet sex but you're not going to get that in real life it doesn't work that way it takes time it
00:57:00
takes patience you know and you're gonna have to work and you're going to be rejected being with people is a skill being a
00:57:08
social animal although there's a part that comes naturally if you spend all of your time here you're losing that skill
00:57:15
of how to respond to people's body language you know half of the thing is
00:57:20
you're sitting in a bar opposite let's say it's a woman and how she crosses her legs how she
00:57:28
sips her drink how she looks at you how she touches her hair she's signaling
00:57:34
things it's a language it's a beautiful language right you have to learn it and
00:57:39
you're not going to learn it here because you can't you have to be in person it has to be skinned skin you
00:57:45
have to get a feel of what other people are thinking and feeling and we're actually really really good at that
00:57:50
humans have that's what makes us human it's called mirror neurons I can sense
00:57:56
what's going on in your mind I can read your body language you have to get out in the world and you
00:58:02
have to be put yourself physically out there and try and try and try and have
00:58:07
rejection and I know it sounds awful but it is a skill in a way where you're learning how
00:58:14
to like understand and deal with people and and and understand that what they're
00:58:19
who they are and get inside their Spirit it takes time and effort and patience so
00:58:24
for young men you have to realize that right you if you think everything has to
00:58:30
be easy and quick it's never going to work for you and I talk about the actor the Hollywood actor Errol Flynn
00:58:37
who is perhaps numerically the greatest male Seducer
00:58:42
ever because estimated that he had seduced close to 3 000 women and he died
00:58:48
when he was 50 and if I I did the math one day what how can that possibly be
00:58:54
um and I tried to research what was his secret and it was hard to find out
00:59:00
finally I found a book written by a woman whom he had seduced another actress and she said
00:59:06
he was so relaxed and so comfortable it was like being it was like an animal
00:59:12
type thing and then what I would sit with him it was almost as if I had drunk two martinis just sitting next to him
00:59:18
his comfort and his security and his confidence his relaxed attitude it just
00:59:24
made me drunk so feeling relaxed feeling confident and
00:59:30
not defensive and comfortable with yourself is a very powerful seductive
00:59:35
quality I mean there are many of them but that's one that I would point out have you ever figured out what builds confidence you earlier on you were
00:59:42
talking about how children need to experience things first hand you can't just tell them you can't just tell
00:59:48
someone for example to be confident preaching doesn't seem to work what what is it in your view that that does build
00:59:54
that true or you also can't fake confidence no I remember we talked about
01:00:00
rejection a second ago I was rejected by pretty much every girl that I was pursuing between the ages of of 16 and
01:00:08
I'd say 22. really yeah like and I do you know what it was I I was faking
01:00:13
confidence it all changed when I was actually had a sense of security in myself but in the period where I was
01:00:20
like faking confidence I was pretending I was confident um it was like they could they just
01:00:26
could read past it that's almost how I look back on the situation so I came to learn that you can't fake confidence you
01:00:32
can't pretend to be it because there's so many sort of micro Expressions that yeah that you that look that end up
01:00:38
reading more like insecurity than confidence um but what is real confidence and how does one build it in your view well
01:00:44
you've kind of answered your own question there in a way so um you know conf fake conferences like bravado right
01:00:52
and you're putting on an act and particularly women who've had to deal with this for you know Millennia
01:00:59
they can smell it they can sense it they don't have to it doesn't have it's not in your words it's the body language etc
01:01:05
etc real confidence comes from actual um actions from your actual things
01:01:12
you've accomplished right so you know when you're 22 21 it's hard to have that
01:01:19
confidence because what is it based on you know maybe it's based okay maybe you're you're really good
01:01:25
looking if you happen to have that good fortune and you can feel confident about that and you don't have to try so hard
01:01:32
all right maybe that might work or maybe you're really good at sports or maybe
01:01:37
you're a really good dancer or you're a really great singer but it's based on something real you have a skill you have
01:01:45
something that separates you you have something that you can do that you can accomplish because when you're 21 it's
01:01:50
hard to have those you know I look back on myself when I was that age I had nothing no wonder I got rejected you
01:01:57
know um so it comes from what you do in life
01:02:03
okay the the finest sense of confidence is actually creating things and having
01:02:08
success and meeting goals and achieving things and having a record of that you
01:02:15
know and maybe what goes with that is having some money but it's not necessarily because you don't have to have a lot of money and you don't have
01:02:21
to be good looking to seduce that's a myth that I try to explode in The Art of Seduction some of the greatest seducers
01:02:29
male and female were not good looking at all it's about psychology and it's about how you carry yourself
01:02:35
but the confidence comes from actually what you can do not how you feel or what
01:02:41
you say well it is how you feel but the feeling is based on things that you actually can do skills that you have
01:02:48
that separate you that make you feel really confident you know
01:02:53
so body language yeah I find it fascinating that you know there's quotes and things that say 80 of
01:03:01
our communication is non-verbal etc etc um body language is so interesting to me because again I think that's one of the
01:03:07
things that it's just impossibly hard to fake I was reading you know a couple of books on there was a phase when I was I
01:03:14
don't know 20 probably just after being rejected all the time when I was maybe 22 where I started reading books from pickup artists and they would obsess on
01:03:22
the topic of body language and one of the things they'd say is and I I was explaining this to my girlfriend a
01:03:27
couple of weeks ago that when when a man is lower confidence when he's desperate he does this thing called pecking in a
01:03:34
nightclub where he'll like lean in and like shout in your ear and when he's higher confidence he kind of leans out
01:03:39
and he'll he'll wait for you to lean in small things like that subtleties like that that intuitively we we're reading
01:03:46
and understanding and communicating and Etc but someone that doesn't have the confidence probably isn't even aware
01:03:52
that they do so when I reflect on my rejection phase I think gosh my body language must have been exuding
01:03:59
desperation and low status and low value low self-esteem what's your thoughts on body language
01:04:04
and well um in my last book human nature I wrote a whole chapter on it
01:04:10
I quoted the figure 95 but who knows what it really is the thing it is that um we evolved for
01:04:19
hundreds of thousands of years before language existed right and our earliest ancestors depended on the group for
01:04:26
their survival and getting along and their powers came from observing other people and their body language you could
01:04:32
read it so it's a skill that's wired into US wired into our brains it's very unique skill that we humans have it's
01:04:40
just that you don't learn that when you're a child when you're two years old you have it because your life depends on
01:04:46
it you you have to see what if your mother is is loving you or is or your father is
01:04:52
kind to you because if not you know you could be abandoned your life depends on it you're great at reading that and
01:04:58
children have are incredibly Adept at picking up body language so if someone is fake
01:05:04
if someone's an imposter they hate being around children because children see through you you know like you know like
01:05:10
radar right because they're so attuned to it you had that skill when you were very young but you lost it because you
01:05:18
became so oriented with words and you became so self-absorbed that you're not paying attention
01:05:24
but it's extremely important right so the whole body is involved in it so
01:05:31
you've got to first stop thinking about people's words so much because the one
01:05:37
thing about words unfortunately is people can lie they can say whatever they want they can say I love your
01:05:43
screenplay that was fantastic you were great in that movie I thought you were great senator they can say anything to
01:05:49
please to flatter to control you but body language man it doesn't lie right so I talk in that book about the eyes
01:05:57
and the fake smile the fake smile is something you see every single day but
01:06:02
you're not paying attention it's like it's kind of tight right it's like
01:06:09
yeah right but a real smile you're the whole face gets animated and
01:06:15
there's a little crinkly thing here as your face as you as it lights up and your eyes light up it's it's hard to
01:06:22
even put into words but it's there you can see it it's real it's not faked knowing the difference between a fake
01:06:28
and a real smile is really important in seduction in business or whatever to know if someone is like yeah
01:06:35
I like that idea you know they don't really they're saying that to please you they actually hate your idea you master
01:06:42
that language you can start deciphering all this people are giving you the face you can disguise it a little
01:06:49
bit actors know that but you know what you can't fake it's your voice
01:06:55
if you're nervous not even the finest actors in the world can fake that your voice betrays so many
01:07:02
things about you it betrays your weakness it betrays your lack of confidence or it portrays the other
01:07:08
quality Etc right so pay really attention to the tone of people's voices
01:07:14
to how fast they talk people who talk fast are very nervous someone who's
01:07:19
talked I know I'm probably talking a little too fast too sorry uh my mind races so I can't do that normally I
01:07:26
don't talk so fast but um you know you talk slowly you have a
01:07:31
certain tone you have a certain intonation that kind of reveals confidence okay body language posture you were talking
01:07:39
about pecking right when you go and look at a meeting of people in in a business
01:07:44
meeting you'll see all the employees kind of leaning forward nervous and you'll see
01:07:51
the boss kind of leaning back arms for us like this you know I'm the powerful one you come to me I'm the leader I'm
01:07:58
the I'm the top dog or she it's a woman I don't need to be like this I'm like
01:08:04
this body language reveals a lot about leadership qualities etc etc etc
01:08:10
you know if you go you're at a party and you come up to someone that you're
01:08:16
meeting for the first time and they're talking to you and you notice that their feet are angling away from you
01:08:24
that means that they're not really interest they're looking for any moment to try and walk away and Escape they're
01:08:29
not really into you whereas their feet are facing you they're engaged they want to talk to you right
01:08:35
this is a whole art you can learn and you can sit there and you can read it and I talk about I give the story in
01:08:41
laws of human nature of a man named Milton Erickson the founder of NLP and
01:08:47
hypnotherapy probably one of the most brilliant psychologists who ever lived when Milton Erickson was 19 years old or
01:08:53
so he had polio he nearly died his entire body was paralyzed the only thing he can move the
01:09:01
only muscle he could move with his eyeballs now imagine that he was a young man with a very active mind he can't
01:09:07
talk he can't do anything all they can do is move his eyeballs a little bit he was so bored can you imagine how
01:09:14
bored you'd be like that you can't read you can't do anything people would come in to visit him all they could do was
01:09:20
look at them and study them he became the greatest reader of body language
01:09:26
ever in the history of mankind people said it was he was almost had ESP he
01:09:31
could read everything about who they were just by because he ended up recovering he became a psychologist
01:09:37
because his life depended on developing this skill he was going to just die from
01:09:42
sheer boredom if he didn't learn how to read body language he mastered that language much like somebody could Master
01:09:48
French and it's an incredibly powerful language that I I can't emphasize enough
01:09:55
you know we can go about learning the language of body language and I'm sure that will help but
01:10:00
it's such a complex um like VAR there's like a thousand
01:10:07
things with my body language at all times like how I'm speaking my eyeballs why where I'm looking my posture my arms
01:10:13
like am I crossing my arms am I crossing my legs all of these things so the the challenge of mastering all of that feels
01:10:19
a little bit overwhelming am I right in assuming the easiest the easier challenge to master is in
01:10:26
fact just like my sense of self very well put because you know if you
01:10:31
feel confident if you feel secure if you're not all Inward and insecure and worried
01:10:37
about yourself it will naturally radiate through your gestures yeah you don't have to sit there and pay attention to
01:10:43
your fingers your arm your ears your eyes it's just there it's natural so yeah that is the solution so the two
01:10:50
game parts of the game it's your own body language be aware that people are judging you for that right and you can't
01:10:57
as you say be monitoring everything or you'll drive yourself crazy and you'll look very weird right so the best solution is to
01:11:05
feel these certain things that are going to radiate and to not give the fake smile but when you really happy to just
01:11:13
show it and show your emotion that way and the other side which is more is I think really
01:11:20
important is learning other people's body language and that can come from study and is much more a logical thing
01:11:27
than than constantly thinking about everything that you do
01:11:32
your next book that I have here mastery why did you write a book called mastery
01:11:40
well to be honest with you it came the idea for it was around the year 2010
01:11:45
2009 I was getting a little worried that people who were reading my books particularly young men who were reading
01:11:51
power and seduction they cut they were thinking that's all I need in life man I just need to be a manipulator I just
01:11:57
need to play political games that's what success is all about and I was worried that you know
01:12:03
if if you don't understand how to make something what's going to be the future of mankind are bridges just going to
01:12:10
fall down our hotel is going to collapse people don't know how to make things anymore we don't know how to use our hands anymore right so
01:12:18
being able to be good with people is extremely important as a social animal but perhaps higher up in the hierarchy
01:12:25
is being able to do things to be able to have great skill and to be able to
01:12:30
create something and know how to master a subject and to you know build something that can last that's really
01:12:38
important and I'm feeling like because young people this is back in 2010 imagine now
01:12:44
had this idea that everything comes quick and easy because you can click click click and things come to you that
01:12:50
everything in life should be that way that we're becoming alienated from the human brain how the human brain operates
01:12:57
because the human brain requires time if you know how the human brain operates we
01:13:02
have what are called neural Pathways and every time you repeat something a neural pathway is created and strengthened and
01:13:10
strengthened and strengthened it's why we get addicted to things but it's also why we develop skill so if I'm sitting
01:13:18
there shooting free throws day in and day out and day out my brain is wiring it it's learning it it's learning that motor skill that hand mind thing and
01:13:25
it's getting better and better and better at it it takes time it takes repetition to build those Pathways and I
01:13:33
explain in Mastery that you reach the proverbial ten thousand hours which some people dispute nowadays so it's just a
01:13:40
number it's not it's not a fact you've spent so long learning something
01:13:46
that there's so many Pathways it's like this amazing inner landscape with all these
01:13:52
connections going on in your brain and now you can be creative now you can come up with things that nobody's ever
01:13:58
thought of you can play chess on a higher level you can be Pele on soccer or Lionel Messi making passes that no
01:14:06
one had ever seen before because you're not having to think right you don't have to think anymore your body just does
01:14:11
does what it wants imagine twenty thousand hours which is possible just people sometimes detain in
01:14:17
certain Fields you're almost like a genius you're almost like superhuman right
01:14:23
if you're someone who's so locked into the internet to getting things instantly you can't get past hundred hours let
01:14:30
alone ten thousand you're never going to develop skill and you're going to find life really really difficult for you so
01:14:37
I wrote the book because I was actually deeply worried that we were losing a part of of how the human brain operates
01:14:44
something Elemental part of our wisdom the interesting three line between that
01:14:50
and the subject matter we've discussed in power and seduction is that by learning to master something you build
01:14:56
that sense of self-esteem and confidence that we're looking for um to to be good at the former topics
01:15:02
mentioned but on the topic of um Mastery the first chapter in this book and really the
01:15:08
first question a lot of people ask is this question about finding your passion and I've always had a difficult relationship with this question because
01:15:14
it sometimes assumes that there's one of them and that you have to go in search of it somewhere in the first chapter of
01:15:20
your book you talk about discovering your life task um why why is it important is it the same
01:15:27
thing is is finding your passion and finding your life task the same thing no I just recorded this yesterday uh on my
01:15:33
own podcast I went on a rant about how it's not about passion it's not about finding your passion I actually don't
01:15:40
like that word passion it kind of makes me cringe because if you think about it passion to succeed at anything requires
01:15:48
time and effort and boredom and tedium so let's just say a simple example
01:15:54
you're learning to play the piano when you first sit down at the piano you have to play these really insipid Tunes it's
01:16:00
so boring you have to learn you know um I forget what they call it a finger exercises and scales on any instrument
01:16:07
you have to learn scales Etc it's tedious man if you think it's got to be
01:16:13
passion forget it you're never going to get far the thrill comes after a year of
01:16:18
playing the piano and you get better at it and better and better and now it starts coming fun then 10 years it's
01:16:25
more fun than 20 years it's fantastic you know I'm not I'm not trying to name drop here
01:16:31
but the other night I had dinner with Stevie Wonder it was the most amazing thing I ever
01:16:36
seen he's absolutely I wish I'd interviewed him from my book speaking of Genius you know and he's blind obviously
01:16:43
everybody knows but I was watching him you perform for us we were they prevented his recording studio I was
01:16:51
watching him play the piano and he's blind right and he's improvising and it's just
01:16:57
absolutely brilliant and amazing as I'm seeing this I'm thinking I could see the
01:17:02
thousands of hours he's been putting in just touching these keyboards and knowing where the where the where the
01:17:08
keys are you know it was just mind mind blowing how amazing it was that is the
01:17:15
power that the human brain naturally has through hours and hours and hours of
01:17:21
effort that's how it works so you know he didn't get there because it was
01:17:27
passion he got there because he was a child prodigy at an age of 11. he was
01:17:32
assigned to a contract with Motown records right he was playing that as he was a kid hour
01:17:39
after hour after hour after hour he had a love for the piano but it wasn't like
01:17:44
every time he sat down it had to be passionate about it he had the patience to put up with all of the boring stuff
01:17:50
okay so you want to discover what you were meant to what you have a connection to what
01:17:57
you have a love for right when you're a child hopefully or when you're 18 or 19
01:18:03
or 20 that's the best time to discover it all right you decide and it doesn't have to be
01:18:10
something highfalutin or or worth uh you know like intellectual you could be
01:18:15
great with your hands you could be great with your body you could be great with images and visuals you could be great
01:18:21
with words you could be great in many different areas okay they're all equal they're all great you as a child are
01:18:29
naturally so there's a book I always recommend for people called the five frames of Mind by Howard Gardner in
01:18:35
which he talks about the five forms of intelligence that humans have the each brain by genetically is wired
01:18:44
in One Direction or the other you want to know that you want to feel it inside of you
01:18:49
it's like a feeling it's not an intellectual thing you feel when you're doing sports that it's it's good it's a
01:18:56
natural thing it's what I'm meant for when you're involved with words like I was when I was eight years old you felt
01:19:03
right it felt like a natural fit I have to follow this path when you're three or
01:19:08
four years old and it's music like Stevie Wonder and you're hearing this in your head wow that's that's it for me
01:19:14
right okay you feel it you feel this connection all right now you fast
01:19:20
forward to when you're 18 or 19 years old and you're having to make a career choice okay so I call that your 20s the most
01:19:28
important phase of your life that's going to make or break you in some way if you spend your 20s trying to learn
01:19:36
skill in something that connects to you deeply right
01:19:42
then things are going to happen to you by the time you reach 30. you've discovered your life's task it may not
01:19:48
be something so specific for me it was writing words but I didn't know
01:19:54
what to write I tried novels I tried journalism I tried theater I tried screenwriting but you know it it gives
01:20:01
you a direction and you try and you try and try and you know that's what you were meant for that's what you were destined for you you feel connected to
01:20:08
it you feel a love for it and so when it comes time to do the tedious stuff
01:20:13
you're able to do it because you know in the end it'll pay rewards you'll get better and better at it and the
01:20:20
connection is so deep that to not do it would be miserable so
01:20:26
you can't think of everything in life having to be pleasurable and having to be passionate it's going to be boredom
01:20:32
there's going to be tedium how do I deal with it you have to feel a greater love than just mere pleasure or passion it's
01:20:40
got to be something so deep within you that to not do it will make you deeply and happy for me not to write or be a
01:20:47
writer I don't think I'd be alive right now I would have been so miserable I would and so alienated from who I am so
01:20:52
that's what will get you through that's that's what a life's task is when you think about that in the book you talk
01:20:58
about the first phase which is you know your apprenticeship on your journey to mastery when you're in that
01:21:04
apprenticeship phase you know when you're maybe early in your career you're early on your journey to
01:21:09
becoming The Pianist the violinist the podcast the entrepreneur whatever what are the the most important things
01:21:15
to be um selecting for as it relates to the job you take the people you're around
01:21:21
that kind of thing like if there's a 23 year old listening to this that is a you
01:21:26
know an apprentice at a floristry shop making bouquets of flour and they're
01:21:32
being offered five different jobs in the industry of floristry which one should they be looking at if they're in the
01:21:37
early steps of their apprenticeship very easy question to answer thank you um you want to look for the job that
01:21:43
offers you the most possibilities of learning so if you're going to go to a florist shop where there's only one
01:21:50
other person there it's like an entrepreneur who started it and you're going to be like their right hand man or
01:21:57
woman and you're going to learn and the pay is half of what you could get at
01:22:02
this very fancy you could be of working at the shop at some department store where they'd pay you triple take the job
01:22:08
that pays one-third where you're going to learn the most you're going to learn about the business you're going to learn
01:22:14
from the ground up and you note is going to be a level of excitement where
01:22:19
you know we might not survive another few months we've got to work hard we've got to be motivated we're all on the
01:22:25
same page here a lot of people when they're 23 they grab the job with the biggest paycheck and that's a mistake
01:22:31
because if you go to like a large large firm you're kind of lost you don't have as
01:22:38
much responsibility you suddenly have to deal with all the political games the 48 Laws of Power you're not paying
01:22:45
attention you're not developing skills as much you don't have as much responsibility take the job that has one half the
01:22:52
salary but you're responsible you're going to be learning and it's up to you that's that's the most important thing
01:23:00
you can do when you're at that point in your life you say there's three steps in that apprenticeship deep observation
01:23:07
is that what you mean when you say deep observation you mean like being able to observe the job happening would you mean
01:23:12
something else well it means that it also means so most people when they start a job
01:23:18
their whole their first impulses I've got to impress people I've got to make them like me that's that inward
01:23:24
Direction that's so deadly and seduction and it's deadly in life you want to be outer directed you want to observe the
01:23:32
codes and conventions of your field the social codes you know what what's
01:23:37
acceptable behavior what's not acceptable behavior the skills involved the the various heuristics the various
01:23:43
things that you have to learn that create skill you want to be a sponge absorbing what's going on around you
01:23:51
what are the things you need to learn what are the valuable skills what are the things that aren't valuable what are
01:23:58
who are the people you need to avoid who are the people you need to emulate you're a laser you're just observing
01:24:04
everything around you and not worried about yourself that's the proper that's deep observation you talked about skill
01:24:11
there it's all well and good seeing skills and knowing what skills are important but acquiring those skills is pointing two when you're in that
01:24:17
apprenticeship phase in life skills acquisition and this kind of goes to what you're saying with the working in a
01:24:22
florist shop next to the entrepreneur you're going to be Hands-On you're going to be doing which is also goes to what you said earlier about parents and
01:24:29
children like putting them in situations where they get to do stuff yeah a lot of jobs don't offer that a lot of jobs
01:24:35
don't offer the difficulty the challenge right Hamilton is that well we call it
01:24:41
learning by doing and you see some things play into how the human brain operates that which that's what you want
01:24:47
I'd give the image in the in the introduction to master the pardon the alliteration here but the brain has a
01:24:53
grain to it you want to work with that grain you don't want to work against the grain because it's counterproductive and one
01:25:00
of the grains of the brain sorry is learning by doing when
01:25:06
you know flashback 300 000 years ago and we're sitting there we're making tools
01:25:12
out of Bones out of wood Etc the way the skill was passed on to other
01:25:17
people and didn't die with with one generation was you watch this person making the tool and then you watch them
01:25:24
and you learn and you imitated them flash forward to the medieval period in Europe where they had apprentices
01:25:30
apprenticeship schools seven years you're learning masonry you're learning
01:25:35
carpentry you're learning whatever for seven years you're sitting there watching somebody make things and you're
01:25:40
doing it that's how the brain operates you learn by doing not by thinking not
01:25:46
by thinking oh this is how things are fitted in more you know with mortars etc
01:25:52
etc no am I doing it with my hands the human the brain and the Hand have the
01:25:58
most connection of any part of our body because so much of our power as a species depended on our hands we don't
01:26:04
have much of that anymore but learning by doing things with your hands or making things is how the brain is
01:26:12
wired so you want to go with that grain so you want to do things you want to make things you want to be learning
01:26:18
through action not through just a lot of talk and you know as you might know the show's not
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sponsored by Airbnb I can't count how many times airbnbs have saved me when I'm traveling around the world whether
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it's you know recently when I went to the Jungle in Bali or whether it's when I'm staying here in the UK or going to business in America but I can also think
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of so many times where I've stayed in a host's place on Airbnb and I've been sat there wondering could my place be an
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by going to airbnb.co.uk host one of the things that um that you
01:27:25
referenced at the start of this conversation I think maybe even off camera was in 2018 you had a stroke
01:27:31
um and that changed your life in a very fundamental way can you tell me what what happened and
01:27:36
how it's How it changed you well it was a terrifying experience
01:27:45
um you know I was in a coma uh I emerged from it and suddenly I'm somebody who's very physical I I
01:27:51
Sports was a huge part of my life I would swim very long distances I love
01:27:57
mountain biking I I was doing all kinds of um hiking it was extremely important
01:28:03
to me I was every single day I did something physical to take my mind off things Suddenly It's taken away from me
01:28:10
the left side of my body is basically paralyzed I have no control over it to this day I still have problems with it
01:28:17
can't swim can't mountain bike can't hike right
01:28:23
I can't take my mind I can't think while I'm taking a hike I can't type for a
01:28:28
rider that's not much fun I had to deal with crap that I've never had to deal with my life I had a pretty
01:28:35
easy time compared to this I had to learn new life skills
01:28:40
when I'm already 62 years old you know that is an easy stuff I don't want a
01:28:46
whine or complaint because people deal with worse stuff all the time a lot of people get cancer Etc but it's this anybody who's had a stroke
01:28:54
knows what I'm talking about it's very hard because you can practice and
01:28:59
practice and practice and practice hours and hours of therapy I do over an hour of therapy every day and you hardly
01:29:06
notice any results the frustration you takes you 10 minutes to tie your shoes you can't button your
01:29:14
your thing you have to get other people to do that it's hard to cut food you have to be patient you have to
01:29:22
accept this you have to find another way of loving your life of accepting these things that you took for granted before
01:29:28
and I tell people I look out my window now where I'm writing and I see people
01:29:33
walking their dog and I put myself in their shoes and go God
01:29:38
that must be so great just to walk your dog down the street what a pleasurable thing they don't realize it
01:29:45
you take it for granted now please don't take it for granted understand that the ability that you have now to run to walk
01:29:52
your dog to swim to type it can be taken away from you and just appreciate your
01:29:58
life what you have because the things that I love were taken away from me and I wish they hadn't been so I've had to
01:30:04
adjust myself you know when something like that happens in life when you
01:30:09
when you are the the victim of an of a tragedy or instance or circumstance or
01:30:16
something that happens there's often a degree of unfairness surrounding it when I when I read about that incident in
01:30:22
2018 I've read that it was a bee sting that caused a clot that caused the
01:30:28
stroke yeah I know it's actually I think a wasp
01:30:35
but if that wasp had been like moving the wind a bit a little different and it
01:30:41
would move this way instead of this way may not have had a stroke you know but I can tell you this so
01:30:48
um in May of that year the the stroke was in August in May I'd finished the
01:30:54
laws of human nature which took me five years and when I finished that book I felt like I was near death I was so
01:31:00
exhausted I was so drained you know my wife was really worried about me because I just looked really Haggard slowly I
01:31:08
kind of recovered but then in July I went to New York and I forgot my blood pressure
01:31:14
medication that I'd take so my blood pressure was starting to rise and then I came back to LA and I walked in this
01:31:21
park and the bee the wasp stung me here and my whole chest turned red and it was
01:31:26
like the most unbearable feeling so I went to the hospital they gave me this drug called Prednisone to relieve the
01:31:33
itching prednisone increases your blood pressure and so when I ended up having the stroke
01:31:39
the blood clot it was right where the wasp sting was so the neurologist said probably all this cholesterol was
01:31:45
released from that drugs that from that wasp being here and that's where the blood clot occurred okay but there were
01:31:54
all these other circumstances that kind of led to it a kind of a perfect storm and maybe if I hadn't had that wasp
01:32:01
sting it would have happened four months later under different circumstances and I would have died because what happened
01:32:08
was I was driving my car when I got my stroke my wife was in the other seat she
01:32:14
saw something really strange going on my face I didn't notice it she forced me to
01:32:21
pull over the side of the road 90 of the time I'm alone I'm swimming I'm hiking I'm driving could have
01:32:28
happened four months from then she wouldn't be there I'd be dead right now so I can't really think in terms of
01:32:36
oh if that wasp had been diverted it would be a good feeling but it's too painful for me to imagine I like to
01:32:42
think of fortunately someone was there who saved my life because it could have
01:32:47
very well happen four months from then because I my body was worn down and
01:32:52
something much worse could have happened that that Journey you described of
01:32:58
having to rebuild and relearn and re redesign your life it's we've talked about the topic of power so much in this
01:33:04
conversation in that moment it sounds like your power to some degree had been taken from you
01:33:11
you know um you you learn like at least for me when
01:33:17
I looked at people I Look to people differently after my stroke I had more empathy for them I'm normally
01:33:23
an empathetic person but I was looking at people in the pandemic who got long
01:33:30
covered who were having Strokes or were having terrible circumstances or when I
01:33:35
look at people who are disabled because I'm essentially disabled now
01:33:40
I understand them I and and also the other thing is when I look at people who are really poor
01:33:47
um who are struggling in life they feel really dependent and helpless
01:33:54
I felt that physically I don't feel that materially because I don't have that problem anymore thank God but I I have
01:34:00
more empathy I understand it not an intellectual way but in a visceral physical way that sensation of
01:34:07
I don't know where my food's coming from I don't know what's going to happen the next day I'm weak I'm dependent I'm
01:34:13
helpless it's miserable I kind of understood that feeling now on
01:34:18
a on a different level on a level that affected me personally and it's a lot different than having it
01:34:24
affect you in an intellectual way the phases in that journey to where you
01:34:30
are today the first phase after the incident you wake up you realize that your your life has changed what's what's
01:34:37
going on in your psychology what's going on in your mind you talked about helplessness and to be honest with you what happened to
01:34:45
me was right afterwards there was the level of delusion in my mind I kept thinking well
01:34:51
in three months I'll be back at it I'll be in six months I'll be swimming in a year I'll be hiking again I deluded my I
01:34:59
wasn't aware of how hard the process was and then six months eight months a year
01:35:04
down the road as I realized I was wrong that's when the depression sat in that's when it really started hitting me I
01:35:11
thought I'd be back here I am four years on I thought it'd be back to my life but I'm not
01:35:18
you know so that's what was the hardest struggle was actually a year in there
01:35:23
and going there's a phase where you kind of plateau where you're not really progressing anymore that's the worst
01:35:29
part of it I'm progressing now again because I have a great therapist but
01:35:34
I had to deal with really bad depression about a year a year and a half in when it started realized this is my life man
01:35:42
I'm gonna always have this funny arm that's Bowing in I'm going to be walking like this
01:35:48
I I don't I never expected this in my life so I've had to deal with that and
01:35:54
I've had to kind of find a way to not let it get me down to find other pleasures and joys in life Etc which I
01:36:01
have how how do you find a way to not let it get you down I'm thinking now about people that are listening to this that
01:36:06
might be struggling with their own subjective struggles in life they've been they've lost their job they've you
01:36:13
know they've they have a disability whatever it might be what are what are the successful strategies you've
01:36:18
deployed to try and remain I keep that peace of mind
01:36:24
well I don't know how much of it is applicable because I'm at a phase of life where I don't have material worries
01:36:31
you know and I could have had a kind of stroke where my physical element would
01:36:38
have been untouched but my brain would have been damaged which is another part that would have been worse because I
01:36:44
wouldn't have been able to write another book and I have a very active mind um
01:36:49
so for me being able to write another book is my salvation so when it's three
01:36:55
o'clock in the afternoon when I get down to writing it's the happiest moment of my life I feel at peace I'm back to my work and I
01:37:03
love my work and I love what I'm writing about it saved me a lot I do meditation
01:37:08
I've been meditating now for about 12 years I think more more than that every morning it's a ritual I have to meditate
01:37:16
if I don't something is wrong and I've never missed a day I can honestly say and it it just calms me down it just
01:37:25
gives me a strength throughout the whole day so I get up seven o'clock you know the sun's usually
01:37:32
showing because it's Los Angeles and um I'll go it's the morning
01:37:38
I'm greeting the morning I'm greeting the sun it's like I'm in like I'm a you
01:37:43
know somebody four thousand years ago in a tribe here's the sun it's it's a
01:37:49
miracle that there's even something like that the birds are chirping I'm looking at the Ivy the sky is blue
01:37:56
calm myself down intrusive negative thoughts start popping into my mind you didn't do this
01:38:02
you have a podcast today at two o'clock Robert you want to do this that and the other I'd get rid of them I go calm down put
01:38:09
that away ground yourself and it's helped immeasurably the other thing is
01:38:15
always keep in mind that there are people who have it worse than you so I don't want to feel sorry for I don't
01:38:20
like the sense of feeling sorry for myself in fact sometimes I turn it around and I
01:38:26
look at that person walking the dog or jogging they go I actually feel sorry for you because you're not aware of how
01:38:33
precarious life is you're not aware of how this can be taken away from you you're not aware of how precious it is
01:38:39
to just be alive and just to see the sky and the birds so I feel better than you
01:38:45
in a way I turned it around I don't want to feel sorry for myself the things they're people who have it worse I read
01:38:51
in the newspaper all the time you know cancer you're in Ukraine or I was dealing a lot with people in in Iran
01:38:58
right now what they're dealing with I don't have to deal with that kind of crap like being in Iran and dealing with
01:39:04
that daily life how how horrifying you know these are thoughts that take you
01:39:09
out of the moment where you're feeling sorry for yourself and you're kind of grateful for certain things so those are
01:39:14
some of the strategies I've had to kind of create for myself
01:39:20
I find it so um I find it so I guess powerful to hear those
01:39:26
strategies because we all get caught up in a narrow perspective and our own
01:39:33
subjective feelings that we're suffering or that life is against us and then that kind of torments us in many ways as
01:39:39
you've post-stroke in 2018 um is there anything else that you have
01:39:44
learned about the nature of Happiness from from that incident that we that you
01:39:49
might not have known before that incident that I might not fully understand now the things I heard you talk about are
01:39:55
the importance of a sense of purpose how perspective and gratitude are Central to
01:40:02
are feelings of happiness but is there any other observations you've had that I'm just saying this from my own selfish
01:40:07
perspective because I want to know well first of all I don't want to give the impression that I've solved everything so I'm a
01:40:15
work in progress I have moments where I get so frustrated it's almost like I
01:40:21
have Tourette's Syndrome like I can't you know I'm still four
01:40:27
years in and my arm is still like this and I still can't brush my teeth if I want I get very frustrated so
01:40:33
I'm getting better but it's still a work in progress I don't want to give the impression that I've somehow this I've
01:40:39
mastered it because it has mastered me I have a long way to go but I'm getting a lot better A lot better at it day to day
01:40:48
um you know I don't know I think I've kind of touched on everything only in the sense of
01:40:54
what about connection you talked about your wife yes he's helped me a lot
01:41:00
God bless her soul she's had to take care of me you know and I was somebody
01:41:05
who's always prided myself for being independent I was trapped that was another thing
01:41:10
that was taken away from me I was traveling around the world doing book tours going to book festivals doing
01:41:17
interviews doing consulting in various different countries I could still travel but it requires a
01:41:24
lot more so I lost my Independence I had to have somebody help me with food every
01:41:29
single day I need things being done for me and I I feel terrible that you know
01:41:35
she's been put in that position but she's been very gracious about it and she understands she has a lot of empathy
01:41:42
because she knows what I've lost so having somebody in your life if I were
01:41:47
alone I couldn't deal with it man I wouldn't have been able to deal with it it just would have been too much for me
01:41:53
it would have been too depressing that depression that sucks after a year would have leveled me it just I couldn't have
01:42:00
made it so that's an incredibly important aspect just appreciating
01:42:06
the little things in life that I just you know it's a cliche and I hate saying
01:42:12
cliches but um you know I have that feeling almost every day where i'm looking at somebody
01:42:18
going man that must be I'm like riding my bike and I'm seeing somebody just sitting in
01:42:24
a park reading a book on a bench and I'm going God that is so much fun just to be able to do that I can't do that anymore
01:42:29
but I put myself in their body the little things in life that you take for granted are some filled with so much
01:42:36
happiness and joy that you're not thinking about if that person's sitting on a bench reading that book only
01:42:42
realized what this person riding by thinks maybe they wouldn't take it for
01:42:47
granted so some of those little things that you don't think about have incredible importance at least to
01:42:55
me having lost them so I don't know if I'm I wish I had something better but no I
01:43:02
think I could only come from my own experience I can't make it up your books tend to focus on the nature
01:43:09
of The Human Condition what how we are as humans For Better or For Worse and it was it was interesting
01:43:15
because as you were talking over several topics when you're talking about seduction and the full weight loss of power and mastery
01:43:21
it was a part of me that's you know that started to feel a little bit I
01:43:27
don't know feel the darkness that is innate within humans a bit a bit too much maybe that we're a little bit too contrived
01:43:34
and manipulative and conniving and whatever else and I was thinking do I
01:43:39
really like humans you know I'm one of them I don't I'm very conscious of trying to separate myself I hear people
01:43:45
doing interviews when they're talking about society and I always think you are Society I am human I am I'm all of the
01:43:51
things you've described in many many ways but has your journey of learning about humans and Human Nature Made you
01:43:57
personally more loving towards humans more optimistic about the human race or
01:44:03
has it made you the the opposite honestly well it's maybe more loving but
01:44:09
it hasn't made me more optimistic okay um you know there's so many things that
01:44:15
are seem to be going awry in the world today now I happen to be um the form of
01:44:23
meditation I do is Zen meditation and in Zen meditation there's this idea of
01:44:28
what's called the tathagata which means it was it was another name for Buddha and it means things as they are and one
01:44:37
thing you meditate is the world is in good or bad or ugly or
01:44:42
evil or unjust it just is things just are this is just the way the world is
01:44:48
this is the karmic chain the wheel of Dharma that's been going on for thousands of years it just is it's just
01:44:55
the State of Affairs it's you're discriminating your mind it's your mind that creates all of these
01:45:01
things let go of that and you can connect to the way the world is without judging it and it becomes this very
01:45:07
beautiful place and so I a part of me wants to think of this is just the way
01:45:13
things are but a part of me goes this isn't good the way things are and I hope
01:45:19
their change so knowing human nature and knowing how human nature tends to twist things how
01:45:25
whenever we invent a new piece of technology it could be the telephone it could be the television it could be the
01:45:32
internet it could be cryptocurrency or it could be you know AI
01:45:39
it tends to twist and darken and degrade and and pervert anything that was once
01:45:45
maybe in beautiful or interesting it makes me worried about the future
01:45:50
so there I turned pessimistic and I'm worried but then I always think that there's hope with
01:45:56
young people and here I'm spouting another cliche down I'm going to shoot myself after this interview but
01:46:02
I feel like when I was young I was angry about things I didn't like the way the world was it was Ronald Reagan and
01:46:09
Margaret Thatcher and yuppies and ugly you know values I didn't have and I
01:46:14
thought there's something wrong I was angry and I wanted to change it young people are still like that and I
01:46:20
think a lot of young people gen Z or whatever the next one is whatever they call them I don't know yet
01:46:26
um they're growing up in a world that isn't healthy that isn't right and when you're
01:46:32
young you have all these energy all this physicality and you you don't like it
01:46:38
you don't feel comfortable in it and I know a lot of young people don't feel comfortable and at some point they're
01:46:43
going to Rebel and they're going to say I'm tired of all this virtuality I want something
01:46:49
real I want some I want real experiences that Spirit of rebellion that I see
01:46:56
seeds of and signs of gives me hope and I hope that it continues because I
01:47:01
remember once I had a dream probably the most memorable dream I ever had it was maybe about 15 years ago or so
01:47:07
and I dreamed that I was there in the year 2072 or something like that I was
01:47:13
walking around the year 2072 it was the streets of New York I was going wow everybody looks so happy humans finally
01:47:21
figured out how to do well in this world they figured out how to what matters There's Hope in this
01:47:26
world that was my moment in that dream this is always sort of stuck with me maybe that will happen maybe it won't I
01:47:34
don't know I'm not Nostradamus but you know so this I struggle with that I
01:47:40
struggle with part of me is pessimistic and part of me seeks Seeds of Hope
01:47:45
particularly in young people and I really really really wish they figure it out because my generation Generations
01:47:52
before we've kind of screwed this world over things aren't good right now and I'm hoping that Spirit of rebellion that
01:47:59
young energy will kind of come and kick the Apple card and say screw all this we
01:48:04
want a different world we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a
01:48:11
question for the next guest not knowing who they're going to ask it for and the question that's been left for you to
01:48:16
answer is in adult life when
01:48:22
were you most happy and why and then brackets it says are you this
01:48:29
way now and if not why
01:48:37
well I have to say the happiest moment of my life
01:48:43
came at that turning point when I was 38 or so and I was given the opportunity to write
01:48:49
the 48 Laws of Power and it came out and my life had changed and so the
01:48:56
contrast from being in a in a small apartment
01:49:03
rather poor rather desperate where people were beginning to worry about me
01:49:08
and suddenly things were clicking together and I was having fun and I was having all these adventures and I had
01:49:15
reasonable out of money the shift was so radical and so dramatic that it was
01:49:20
extremely exciting you know and it was almost like a drug high it was pretty damn intoxicating
01:49:28
um I don't have that now because it's 25 years ago and I'm kind of still riding
01:49:35
off of that and and the high is worn off but I can remember in my body how
01:49:43
depressed I was and that feeling and I never lose it I'm very grateful for what
01:49:49
I have because I know it could have turned out very differently so I still feel that initial happiness
01:49:56
because I know if you have success when you're 24 you're not ready for it you don't
01:50:02
realize how evanescent it could be how it can disappear and how important it is I never had that because I struggled for
01:50:08
so long and so many bad jobs so the happiness the Euphoria isn't the
01:50:16
same it's not the same intensity but I'm still riding on that wave because I know where I was before it happened and it's
01:50:25
been an amazing journey you know my wife who's been there for it with it goes can you believe that you
01:50:32
were having dinner with Stevie Wonder when you were 12 years old you told me Robert that was the first album you ever
01:50:39
bought was intervisions and what would you told yourself when you were 12 years old this is what's happening whoa I
01:50:45
would have I would have flipped out it's been an amazing journey I can't I can't complain
01:50:51
my whining complaint card was taken away from me in 1998 when I published that
01:50:56
book and so I'm still feeling I'm still feeling the the last vestiges of that Euphoria from
01:51:03
back then Robert thank you thank you so much I've
01:51:08
um I've been a tremendous fan of your work for what feels like forever in my life and um your your wisdom your your
01:51:17
willingness to confront difficult subject matter that a lot of people would avoid because there is darkness in
01:51:23
laced in a lot of the subject matter that you've written about in some of your books but it is very it's very human important as you say
01:51:30
objectively neutral darkness that just is and for you to confront that over and over again and your work is is it makes
01:51:37
it some of the most important work I think anyone could do because it's the work that a lot of us avoid but your vulnerability and openness today as well
01:51:43
have been like a shot at my ass in terms of gratitude um and the importance of perception
01:51:51
um as it relates to our happiness and our sense of a sense of self so thank you so much I've really enjoyed this conversation more than I could express
01:51:56
in words thank you so much Stephen it was a great interview I was telling me that uh I've done thousands of these
01:52:03
podcasts and I know I can tell I've done my ten thousand hours I can tell
01:52:10
a great interviewer from a mediocre interview and you're on that Elite category wow because you ask really
01:52:15
great questions and you're a great listener and it's been really fun so thank you so much I appreciate the
01:52:20
opportunity means a lot to me thank you Robert okay you're welcome
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01:53:29
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01:53:34
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[Music]
