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for 7 years I was working undercover as a spy and I needed to know how to manipulate how to live and operate
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without ever being detected and how to collect Secrets okay I've got so many
00:00:11
questions Andrew Bustamante he's a former CIA officer who uses spy skills
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to teach anyone how to master their minds talents and potential in business and everyday life when I left CIA I
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realize that I could use CIA skills to Succeed in Business one of the first things you should want to learn is how
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do I know if I'm being lied to as an example bad Liars that is one of the biggest tells of an unskilled liar next
00:00:35
people have four basic core motivations reward ideology coercion and ego and if
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you can speak to somebody through the lens of their ideology you can get them to do incredible things deception versus
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perspective what's that 90% of the people out there they're all trapped in their own perception in thinking
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emotionally and emotions are very likely wrong so CIA trains us to recognize and
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distrust our perception and there's two really quick things that you can do next sad rat it's an acronym and all of our
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marketing all of our human interactions falls into the same sad rat process that I learned at CIA because the human
00:01:13
condition is so predictable so sad rat stands for and it's the reason my company has grown 300% every year for
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the last 3 years I want to know more was there any situations where you felt your life was at risk what do you think about
00:01:27
what's going on at the moment with geopolitics do you think we're already engaged in a form of World War II and then why are you going to try and leave
00:01:32
America in 2027 it's absolutely crazy to me that so
00:01:38
many of you have decided to watch our show um and so many of you have decided to subscribe to our show we now have five million subscribers on YouTube
00:01:45
which is a number that I just can't comprehend and it's a dream that I absolutely never could have had we
00:01:51
started the dire of a CO just over three years ago now and in my wildest expectations we might have had 100,000
00:01:56
subscribers by now so you can imagine how shocked I am that so many of you have chosen to tune
00:02:02
into these conversations every week um and spend some time with us so thank you
00:02:07
and I made a deal with you I made a deal that if you subscribe to this show that we would continue to raise the bar and
00:02:13
in 2024 we're going to raise the bar like never before I've been working for the last N9 months on a surprise for all of
00:02:21
you that have subscribed to the show and I'm very excited to deliver that for you the production's going to change we're
00:02:27
going to go even further with our guests and we're going to tell even more Global stories so as always if you appreciate
00:02:33
what we're doing here the simple free favorite I'll ask from you is to hit the Subscribe button let's get on with the
00:02:39
[Music]
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episode Andrew you're well known for your time in the CIA because people are so
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intrigued and compelled by it how long were you in the CIA I was
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actually in the CIA for a comparatively short period I was only in for S years uh many people make a 30 or more year
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career out of CIA so it was really quite a small blip in terms of My overall life I wore uh the US military uniform for
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seven years before that as well so 14 years total spent in service to the United States and what is the CIA so the
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CIA is uh the United States's intelligence foreign intelligence
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collection uh platform their primary agency deemed with collecting foreign secrets that have any kind of impact in
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American National Security so if you think about it uh there are multiple what's called intelligence agencies in
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what's known as the intelligence Community or the IC CIA is just one of those 36 is uh community members in the
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IC however it is the one charged with centralizing all of the intelligence collected hence the Central Intelligence
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Agency so it's a hub in a large wheel of intelligence collection is that what a spy is is it the same thing as being a
00:03:59
spy so I'm going to I'll geek out with you a little bit here because terminology is really very important so uh there are
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spies and spy is a vernacular that's used in common uh conversation that
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doesn't really have a definition in terms of the intelligence or Espionage profession you have handlers you have
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Assets in terms of traditional Espionage handlers are officers who collect
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intelligence assets are foreigners who provide intelligence to to the Handler
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so a CIA officer or an MI6 officer a mad officer an MSS officer depending on the
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country these are officers who collect Secrets they are therefore handlers and then all the people who provide them
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secrets are considered assets traditionally speaking when you talk about a spy some people think a spy is
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an asset or a Handler either someone who provides information or someone who collects information okay uh and and the
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term spy is just uh just confusing enough that often times people will
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project their own opinions on top of that word because they don't understand the real Nuance of Espionage so I
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thought of a spy as someone that goes to another country and collects information secretly and then sends it back to the
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country they came from so technically that is an intelligence operative okay or an intelligence officer also known as
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an operator or in media an operative uh sometimes it's also called an agent
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right an intelligence agent these are all kind of terms that get nebulous but what you're describing is a
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intelligence a trained intelligence officer no matter what country you're in whether you're in uh it doesn't matter
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what intelligence profession you're in either and there are multiple types of intelligence there's human intelligence signals intelligence measurements
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intelligence anybody who travels to collect secrets on behalf of their country is an intelligence officer is
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that what you were that's what I was you started a company after leaving the CIA called everyday spy
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correct for someone that's just clicked on this podcast now who's trying to understand the value that they're going
00:06:06
to get from you by understanding the work that you do at everyday spy what are they going to get from this
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conversation this conversation is designed to for me to be able to explain
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how spy skills have a very real value in Breaking everyday barriers and that's
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the mission of my company at everyday spy we use spy education to break barriers social barriers Financial
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barriers educational barriers cultural barriers language barriers if there is a barrier in life I made it my mission in
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my company to break that barrier using a proven real world skill or technique
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from Espionage and what sort of means is that to to what end so if I'm you know
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the average Joe listening to this now when you say break barriers what are those barriers that that I'm going to be able to break in my life so I I
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intentionally use the term breaking barriers because we all have different barriers what the reality of life is
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that we all come into barriers that are similar but we come into those barriers at different times for some people
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there's a barrier in income that they're born into for other people the barrier that they're born into is that they
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don't have a father for other people they come into a financial barrier when they're 18 and they have to leave home
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some people don't ever know Financial barriers but they do know educational barriers because they suffer from dyslexia or they suffer from ADHD there
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are people who have barriers that are due to anxiet the reality is there's really 12 or so
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barriers that we will all experience in our life but we will experience them at different times for some of us it won't
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happen until we become parents for others it happens as soon as we hit adulthood the idea is that CIA is
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extremely familiar with barriers and what they teach us as officers going
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through their training programs is not just the details of tradecraft but it's really to understand that any barrier
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that we as individuals face they can get a through but we can also predict
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barriers other people will run into and if you know somebody else's barrier and you understand their barrier better than
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they do when you help them through that barrier they will tell you Secrets they
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will tell me secrets as part of your training to become a CIA officer you must have
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learned how to manipulate people that seems to me from what I know of spies
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pretty foundational to what it is to be a successful spy and to get information from someone
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else in this conversation today are we going to learn how through your training
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you were taught to get information from people and make them do what you wanted
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them to do yes and I'll I'll be very Frank here I try to exercise something
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called radical transparency if you want to manipulate people you will learn that from this
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conversation if you want to manipulate people I will teach you how to manipulate people you in just a simple
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conversation you can learn those skills but the thing to understand that's the most important is that whether you want
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to manipulate or not others are manipulating you just because you don't
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know what they're doing right the problem with being an intelligence operator is that to achieve the things
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you have to achieve you sometimes have to do things that you don't want to do in being a
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business owner what I've discovered is that many business owners struggle because they feel like they have to do things they don't want to do they feel
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like they have to be sleazy they feel like they have to be tricky they feel like they have to mimic you know Shyer
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bad guy business owners right the flip side if you think of a coin one side of
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that coin is manipulation and that is a that coin has value manipulation has value but the other side of the same
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coin is motivation if you can get people to do what they want to do then you have
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motivated them and that is worth just as much as getting people to do what you want them to do which is manipulating
00:10:04
them we'll get into all of that but I want to understand where you came from because I think this is quite pertinent to both your work as a CIA officer but
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also there's um really interesting sort of psychological elements to why the CIA CH chose you that are deep within your
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childhood story going right back to the beginning of your life what is what is the most important context we need to
00:10:25
understand to understand you I think the most important thing to understand from my childhood is that I was raised by my
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mom uh my father died my father was killed before I was born uh he died in a violent crime in California I didn't
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know him ever and my mom had to start life with a newborn son not just as a
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single mom but also as the single mom of a man who was killed in a crime um so it
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was my mom and my grandma that raised me from very young my mom is uh a woman of color she's she's Latina my father was
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American Indian so they there was an element of racial diversity in 1980 when
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I was born that also kind of played a role in all of that and the reason that that's important is not because of what
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happened in the past it's because from that Foundation my Mom married a Caucasian
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man who became my stepdad uh who became my adopted father as well and I had to
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kind of learn how to come of age or literally come of age in a household
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where I didn't know my father I had a stepdad who was Caucasian with two half sisters who were Caucasian and my
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stepdad's whole goal was to just pull my mom as far away from her Roots as possible because he didn't want to deal
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with all the drama that comes from being part of a Catholic Latin family and my mom was all for that but nevertheless
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like that was that was the kind of soup that I came out of what were the needs
00:11:56
that were going unmet in your life at that point you do not ask easy questions man
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so uh uh I was not I I did not feel
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loved growing up I did not feel loved my mother loved me and I know logically and rationally that she loved me but my
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mother was a cold woman she was focused on Career Success she was focused on feminism she was focused on other things
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I I as an adult now uh my sisters and I often uh reflect on the fact that we
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think our mom was the kind of woman that didn't want to be a mom but it was expected of her to be a mom so therefore
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she became a mom so there wasn't a lot of love there wasn't a lot of emotional
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support there was plenty of academic support and it was always hard because
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the academic support came I think as a way of making sure that they didn't have to provide the other support cuz if you
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have an academically successful student who turns 18 they can get the [ __ ] out of the house and you can have your life
00:13:00
back and I think that was the mission for my mom was just academic success academic success be successful so I
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don't have to take care of you because I'm not really good at this whole hugging loving thing uh and I just want
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you gone so I feel like that was that was my mom my dad and my mom I think had a marriage that was based in a common
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set of objectives more so than shared love and uh and they were just kind of
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pursuing those objectives and uh and I was fortunate because from that I was
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cultivated to be a hardworking academic success and that led to a full ride
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scholarship and that led to you know success in other parts of life but for sure it was it was an un it left behind
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a trail of always wondering who who who loves me in my
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family is love even important in a family does it matter or am I being too focused on this whole love thing uh as
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an example I tell the story because it's totally normal to me but a lot of other people find it surprising there was a
00:14:05
day where my mom pulled me aside I was having an argument with my stepdad and I went to my mom looking for support and I
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asked her to support me you know I was like do do you love me right do you love me or do you love Dad more and she
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looked at me and she was like of course I love your dad more than I love you because you're my son I have to love you
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you were born to me I must love you but it's a choice to love your dad so I have
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to love him more because it's a choice and for me I will never forget that conversation I'll never forget the look
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on my mom's face it was so simple and so academic and so clear to her uh and it's never been something I could ever
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actually accept and even now as a husband and a father myself I don't understand how that was logically sound
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to her I don't know how you could ever actually prioritize who you
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love all of that as you've said as the result resulted in your acad mic success
00:15:00
and your your focus and all those kinds of things but at what cost I mean it makes you kind of [ __ ] up man it makes
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you feel like first of all it makes you feel like your secrets are Justified it makes you feel like you must have
00:15:12
secrets because there's nobody that you can talk to about certain things I I I remember for many years you you can't
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take you can't take your love life to mom and dad you can't tell them the girl that you think is cute you can't talk to
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them about not getting picked to go to the prom dance or anything like that you can't talk about that with them cu don't care and you can't trust your your
00:15:32
sisters you can't trust your mom you can't trust your dad you can't trust the people in your own house so because you can't trust them and because you can't
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take certain things to them you must keep secrets and since you must keep secrets you must be allowed to keep
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secrets there must be secrets that are totally acceptable that they are also keeping from you so I grew up in a world
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where secrets were something that was very normal and then from that you start
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to learn that if secrets are normal then lying must also be normal and totally
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acceptable so there's a level of sociopathy that develops when you feel
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like you're on your own uh and that's something that most people out there who are loners who have grown up in that
00:16:15
world they they learn to understand that there are certain elements of social
00:16:20
behavior that are not culturally acceptable but as long as you don't talk about them you can practice them so that
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was uh that's a big part of what I learned personally was that Secrets how to keep secrets that secrets are normal
00:16:36
how to lie how to lie without being caught and more importantly that that there is a very real difference between
00:16:43
the people the people who are raised in a world where they trust people they trust
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others and because they trust others they have a built-in vulnerability a built-in deficiency of
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compared to the people who are raised in a world where they don't trust others because when you're raised in a world where you don't trust you can always
00:17:04
learn to trust but when you're raised in a world where you trust first it's very difficult to train that person to know
00:17:10
when to not trust someone else how do you feel about that wiring that you have because of that experience I mean it's
00:17:16
sad I'm doing everything in my power to not wire my children the same way that I was wired so I do believe that there is
00:17:23
a faulty wiring that happened but at the same time it's been very valuable to me
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it's been very productive and valuable in terms of what I've been able to experience what I've been able to see
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and do financially economically relationally i i i benefit and value and
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this is a big challenge that I have is as much as I sit here telling friends and like I'm telling you Secrets because
00:17:48
this is what happens we tell people Secrets when they trust you when I share with you the challenges of growing up
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it's important to me that I don't sound like I'm complaining or whining because I had a fantastic foundation for Success
00:18:00
after that but I defined success in all the ways that I was trained to define
00:18:07
success financially economically empirically not based on how I feel
00:18:14
internally have you had to do a lot of work to um counteract the potential
00:18:20
consequences of that wiring as you become an adult and a father and all of those things it's something I think about a lot I think I've got my own
00:18:26
pretty uh [ __ ] up wiring and I'm scared now because I'm on the footsteps of becoming a dad myself you know I'm
00:18:34
with a partner I've been with her for four years we're talking about kids right now and I think Jesus Christ like
00:18:40
there's a really you almost can foresee that there's a really high possibility I'm going to [ __ ] up as a dad because my
00:18:45
brain is wired towards like validation and work Career Success and I'm a bit of
00:18:50
a workaholic and so have you had to do a lot of work on that to absolutely so the
00:18:55
first thing I'll say is you will [ __ ] up as a dad we will all [ __ ] up as parents
00:19:01
the question is how big will we [ __ ] them up and I'm working very hard to
00:19:06
make sure that the way that I [ __ ] up my kids is in small ways that they can fix in small ways but I already know like
00:19:13
the sins of the father pass on so I'm just trying to minimize what I pass on that's negative and maximize what I pass
00:19:19
on that's positive the the additional layer that's that is unique to myself
00:19:26
and all uh professional intelligence officers is that when we are recruited
00:19:31
into intelligence service specifically when CIA recruits field operators it's
00:19:38
fairly transparent they tell you that you were recruited because you are a little [ __ ] up they tell you that you
00:19:44
are you were recruited because of a certain psychological profile that makes it so that you pragmatically view things
00:19:51
like secrets and lies there's a few different terms we call it uh moral
00:19:57
flexibility depending on the situation there are some things that I would deem immoral
00:20:04
but to do them in a different situation is totally acceptable and that's just something that I'm wired to be that's
00:20:10
that's been wired to me since I was a kid but Cia understands how to take advantage of that how to use that in a
00:20:16
way that benefits American National Security there's also an element of high performance that comes from being wired
00:20:24
a certain way so there is a tie between childhood trauma and high performance
00:20:30
it's a wellknown it's a documented connection but Cia has learned as has MI6 and mad and all the other
00:20:37
intelligence Services of the of the world they've learned that when you train someone who has just the right
00:20:43
amount of childhood trauma high performance when you get your hands on them at the right time in the right
00:20:48
period of their life they can be trained to become extremely loyal highly
00:20:53
productive field operators that that end up spending 30 plus years in service to
00:20:59
their Nation when did they get their hands on you they recruited me when I was 27 years old uh coming out of the
00:21:05
military in 2007 I was looking for whatever the next step was going to be uh and that was when I was approached by
00:21:12
a CIA recruiter I heard that you got a popup on your computer screen yeah back in the day that's that's uh I was
00:21:19
actually applying I was a nuclear missile officer for the CI excuse me I was a nuclear missile officer for the Air Force and a nuclear missile officer
00:21:26
in the Air Force controls nuclear icbn so I wore the the little ring wait wait
00:21:31
wait wait what's a nuclear ICBM so a nuclear ICBM is a nuclear intercontinental ballistic missile so
00:21:38
the large missiles that carry nuclear warheads for mutually assured destruction nuclear war type of stuff so
00:21:43
you controlled the nuclear missiles I was half of who controlled them I wore one ring somebody else wore a different
00:21:49
ring and that was that was how a nuclear missile got launched what what's what does the ring do so the ring is a key on
00:21:55
the end of it is a key and when you get uh when you get a nuclear code that comes in the code you put it into a old
00:22:03
school computer system and the two of you take your key ring and you insert it into the The Silo operating system and
00:22:10
then you turn in unison and when you turn in unison it launches a nuclear weapon how did you get yourself to the
00:22:16
point in life at 27 years old where you're holding a nuclear key around your neck I
00:22:24
would love to say it was a series of good decisions but uh but it wasn't I just I was I did what I was told that's
00:22:29
how I got there I did what I was told when I was in high school and I got good grades and then my mom told me that the
00:22:36
best school of all the universities that chose me the best school I should go to is the Air Force Academy so then I
00:22:42
accepted a full ride scholarship to the United States Air Force Academy where I did what I was told and I graduated as a
00:22:48
lieutenant and then I followed what the Air Force told me to do from there and they they told me to learn how to fly
00:22:53
and then they told me that they needed me to work in nuclear and space weapons instead so then I went to that school
00:23:00
and I did well at that school and and I ended up just kind of climbing the ladder I I I did what I was told and and
00:23:06
then one day I was I found myself 100 feet underground
00:23:12
miserable it's it's a horrible job why you're uh so in 2007 when I was a
00:23:19
nuclear missile officer you sit in a in a launch control capsule in LCC uh that
00:23:26
sits 100 feet underground and you sit there on a 72-hour shift with one other person the other person who holds the
00:23:32
other key and then you are one nuclear crew of maybe 30 different nuclear Crews
00:23:39
who are all on deployment at the same time so at any given time in one air
00:23:45
force base there's 60-ish people underground for 72 hours at a time and then in different missile base there'll
00:23:51
be a different 60 people underground and your whole job is just to sit there and wait for nuclear war to break out and
00:23:58
obviously nuclear war hasn't broken out and hopefully it never will break out so as you sit there underground not seeing
00:24:05
sunlight and as you sit there in a in a capsule with one other person that you very rarely ever like you have a lot of
00:24:12
time to reflect on what am I doing what am I doing with my life I'm a redundancy
00:24:18
of a redundancy of a scenario that we all are working very hard to make sure never
00:24:25
happens is this a productive life like am I am I making a difference am I
00:24:31
leaving a mark in history sitting here not launching missiles waiting for a
00:24:37
message to come in that I already know isn't going to lead to nuclear war it
00:24:42
like it's it it's a very difficult and thankless job that even right now as you
00:24:48
and I are having this conversation there are some 200 Americans sitting underground doing that exact job and
00:24:54
that's just in the United States every country that has nuclear weapons is doing the same thing if an order had
00:25:01
come in that instructed you to launch a nuclear weapon would you have done it
00:25:06
absolutely that's what you do the other thing that's important to understand is we're redundancies of redundancies so we
00:25:12
don't know if an order says to launch nuclear weapons we just know that an order comes in that says to insert the
00:25:18
keys and turn them and if it's a valid order that comes in then the machine
00:25:24
will let us insert our keys we will turn our keys and then the machine will do what the machine does sometimes that
00:25:30
order that's coming in is saying launch nuclear missiles sometimes that order that's coming in is just a drill to make
00:25:35
sure that the two people in the capsule turn their keys oh really so you never know the difference we just a redundancy
00:25:41
of a redundancy man it it seems hard to me to understand how someone would stay in that job for a long period of time so
00:25:47
they must have like really high attrition they have they have shockingly low attrition because they do such a
00:25:53
good job of psychologically uh identifying the right people for that job were they scouting you do you think
00:25:59
from a very um early age to eventually go into the CIA no I don't believe so I
00:26:05
think CIA is far too practical to do anything that requires scouting people
00:26:10
from a young age I think what more realistically happened is that they had a very simple algorithm that they had
00:26:17
applied to every Government website so that when people of a certain um profile
00:26:23
applied to a job on a government website then they get a flash on their screen
00:26:28
just like I did that said hey we appreciate your application we'd like to have a different recruiter contact you
00:26:34
for a different opportunity what were you applying for on that government website when that popup came up yeah I was applying for the Peace Corp I was
00:26:40
trying to get into the US Peace Corp because after spending two years
00:26:45
underground uh waiting to launch nuclear missiles I thought that it'd be great to get out of the Air Force and go do the
00:26:50
exact opposite kind of like if you've ever had a really bad breakup you go looking for the exact opposite of the
00:26:56
person you just broke up with that's that's how I felt and the peace corol does sort of humanitarian work around the world exactly right I mean I was
00:27:03
looking to teach children English in Africa or save orphans or do micro
00:27:08
Finance or build Huts like I was looking to to do something that built the world
00:27:14
up instead of just waiting to tear the world down you get this popup as you're applying and it says um we another
00:27:21
recruiter wants to speak to you or something what's to that effect what happens then so that's when being a 27-year-old single guy kicks in and you
00:27:29
think to yourself there might be something better so once you think to yourself there might be something better it's really easy to say yes like I'll
00:27:36
wait and that's all the that's all the screen was asking me to do is just pause my application for 72 hours so it's e to
00:27:43
click yes and then you fall out of that website and you're just on hold for 72 hours either a better opportunity is
00:27:48
going to happen and someone's going to call me or no one's going to call me and I can come right back and finish my application but just to say no means to
00:27:56
miss the opportunity and that wasn't that wasn't me and then within 72 hours you get a call presumably within 24
00:28:01
hours I got a call yeah I got a call from an unlisted number it just said 703 and uh there was a woman on the
00:28:08
other end of the line uh she gave me a first name but I don't remember what her first name was uh and she basically you
00:28:14
know confirmed who I was and confirmed that I was applying to the Peace Corp asked me if I'd be open for other government opportunities and then she
00:28:21
said that there might be opportunities in the National Security sector that I'd be interested in and she'd like to send
00:28:26
me an airline ticket and a hotel reservation and a rental car reservation to come up to DC to hear more about the
00:28:32
job what did you think at that point I thought it was a prank call I thought I thought that the the call wasn't real uh
00:28:39
I thought that the call was maybe it was some kind of gimmick or maybe it was something else or it just didn't sound real uh especially not when she said she
00:28:46
was going to like send me a paper airline ticket and she was going to send me all this stuff in the mail overnight
00:28:52
FedEx uh but then it showed up and then when it showed up again that 27-year-old
00:28:57
single mail kicked in and I was like well now I have a ticket let's see where the ticket goes and let's go to the
00:29:03
reservation counter at the rental car desk and is this a real rental car reservation it's a real reservation is
00:29:09
there a real hotel and then you just kind of follow the breadcrumbs the rental car reservation's real the
00:29:14
airline tickets real you fly out there you land what happens next uh you get
00:29:19
another phone call that says hey did you get in safe and then they tell you the address for where you're supposed to show up the next day uh and then you go
00:29:26
it's a non-descript building and you walk in and uh for me I walked in there were 10 or so other people in
00:29:32
the waiting room none of us really knew what we were there for we all knew that we were there for something related to a government job everybody's dressed
00:29:39
essentially the same way and uh you know you find out that this person's and finance and that lady came from social
00:29:45
work and whatever else it might be and then you eventually somebody comes out and calls you into a room and then you go through the first what we call the
00:29:51
first round of interviews and it's just kind of like a a fit to see what you're interested in what you're not interested
00:29:58
in ETC and it was at the end of that first interview that the lady said to me that uh I might be a good fit for the
00:30:05
National Clandestine Service at CIA which I didn't know what that was at the time and then she basically broke it
00:30:10
down and she was just like you and I did at the beginning of this conversation she was like essentially we want you to be a a field officer or what you might
00:30:17
know from the movies as a spy and of course for me I was I mean my seven-year-old self was like I'm gonna
00:30:24
be a what like you want me to be a spy you want me to like Drive fancy cars and wear tuxedos
00:30:30
and always have a beautiful woman on my side like sign me up for that I mean starving children in Africa can wait I
00:30:36
want to do that but then of course comes the the by line afterwards where she's like you can't tell anybody that this is
00:30:43
what you're now applying for we're going to move you on to the second phase of interviews we need you to you know go
00:30:48
back to your hotel and go back to malstrom Air Force Base in Montana and live your normal life and if anybody
00:30:55
asks you why you're out here just tell them that you came out here applying for a government position and you don't know whether or not you're going to get it
00:31:01
and in the meantime we'll be in touch and then they get in touch again and then they get in touch again and then you go through multiple more rounds of
00:31:07
interviews so they fly you usually back to the DC area and then the interviews
00:31:12
just get kind of more intense you go from a fit interview to a kind of like a
00:31:19
a a test like a um interview that's more of like a test with somebody else they
00:31:25
ask you scenario based questions give you puzzles uh they ask you some light
00:31:30
psychological stuff when you got that letter in the post saying that you've been offered a role how did you feel great yeah yeah I felt like I had done
00:31:37
everything right right I felt like I mean there was a part of me that says that that says and I still kind of
00:31:44
follow this Mantra like who gets to do this so that felt amazing and then there was a ton to use your word a ton of
00:31:50
validation of like now I get it now I know why I went to a college I didn't like now I know why I put up with a
00:31:57
stepdad and listen to my mom and like I don't need love and you don't need support and you don't need a family that
00:32:03
cares about you as a person all you need is to check the [ __ ] boxes because
00:32:08
this is where you get to go when you check the boxes and now that I've checked all the boxes I'm
00:32:16
free EX said it doesn't really work that way because when you're hired because you're you check
00:32:21
boxes it just the boxes just change but you still have to check the boxes and at
00:32:27
that point it goes from interview to I guess training correct during that whole interview process you're not allowed to
00:32:32
tell anyone I'm guessing right even your family nope so what what did you tell your family that you've been up to
00:32:38
during that period so this is what's nice about their recruitment process remember I told you earlier that I I
00:32:44
accepted as a child that there are times that you have to lie and there are secrets that you have to keep this was
00:32:49
just a secret I had to keep and a lie that I had to tell so I told my family that I was looking at getting out of the
00:32:54
Air Force I didn't really know what I wanted to do maybe I'd go work for the government and I was going to DC to do
00:33:00
some government interviews I was never close to my family from the time I left for the Air Force Academy at 18 I mean I
00:33:06
went home maybe once a year every time I tried to go home it was always a kurur fluffle because my parents didn't want
00:33:11
to buy the airline ticket because it was expensive and I didn't have money to buy an airline ticket so I had to ask them and it was the same song and dance every
00:33:18
Christmas holiday right like I'd like to come home I don't have any money well we don't have any money either maybe you
00:33:23
shouldn't come home so it was really easy to be 27 years old almost 10 years after that I'm not
00:33:29
really close to my family so I tell them as little as possible I had a girlfriend
00:33:34
at the time she was a great girlfriend but she wasn't as great as being a CIA officer was going to be right I had
00:33:41
friends at the time but they weren't as cool as being a CA officer would be right so it was really easy to just
00:33:47
start just cutting off the branches of my social tree because I was going to go do something awesome I didn't need
00:33:53
anybody else did the CIA tell you to disconnect from these people at all they told you that you would have to
00:34:01
eventually and you know they they explain how you're going to go into
00:34:06
covert service if you're going to go into Clandestine Service you can't take a whole Rolodex of people with you so
00:34:12
one of the things that they asked during our psychological evaluation was you know how much do you need close relationships and close peers and how do
00:34:18
you feel about severing ties with what we sometimes call like secondary or tertiary relationships friends College
00:34:25
friends like a primary relationship is your spouse a secondary relationship is all your close friends a tertiary relationship is somebody who you work
00:34:31
with so like how do you feel about cutting off all those not so important relationships and for me it was easy
00:34:38
right I was like let's let's go I'm going to go do something amazing I don't need college friends to go do something
00:34:44
amazing do you think your appearance and ethnicity factored into the cia's decision to recruit you absolutely in
00:34:50
2007 so just to take everybody back 2007 was 6 years after 911 it was uh 3 years
00:34:58
after the CIA 911 Commission or the US government 9911 commission came out which basically said that everything CIA
00:35:05
had been doing up to 2001 was wrong they were focused in a Cold War era they were
00:35:11
not focused on terrorism they were focused on you know ivy league Caucasian
00:35:16
graduates as being the next generation of CIA officer instead of diversifying for a diversified world so without a
00:35:23
doubt they were looking for different people they were looking for young people colored people you know
00:35:30
LBGTQ plus people who could connect with the modern-day threat around the world
00:35:36
and then I think on top of being Brown and ethnic I also came with a huge
00:35:44
government file because I had been part of the Air Force since I was 18 years old so they knew everything about my
00:35:50
health everything about my mental health everything about my you know academic athletic performance in college they knew everything about me uh and I think
00:35:57
that's part of why my onboarding process took about 9 months where the typical onboarding process takes about 18 months
00:36:03
how do they train you to become a CIA agent so a lot of the training part is classified still so I can't talk about
00:36:10
it but uh but there's a school that we go to uh it's fairly publicly known but
00:36:15
I can't acknowledge what it is and isn't and we go there for many months and we basically were we're pulled out of
00:36:22
everyday life and we're put into a controlled simulated world um and inside
00:36:28
that simulated World they kind of control what's happening around us so uh if you can imagine almost like going
00:36:34
from uh being taken out of your apartment where you live and now you're put into a different apartment but the
00:36:40
apartment that you're put into is part of a giant game and somebody else controls the all the game so they
00:36:45
control the news that's on the TV and they control you know the the cars that are on the road and and they control
00:36:52
everything except the weather basically so that they can create multiple different types of scenarios where you exercise the skills that they taught you
00:36:58
from driving to First Response first aid response to lying uh living and working
00:37:05
under Alias identities all that stuff so you're put into a very controlled environment for a long period of time
00:37:10
where they can test all of your uh your tradecraft that you're taught it's very
00:37:15
expensive it must be very expensive for them to train a CIA agent right that's why they train Us in batches so uh
00:37:22
there's generally two to three batches a year that go through different types of training and there's different
00:37:27
classifications of officers too right so your analysts are different than your uh technical officers who are different
00:37:33
than your field officers so what they'll do is they'll bat you into or at least what they did in 2007 is they would
00:37:40
batch you along with your discipline and then send a batch to training and then
00:37:45
everybody goes through the same lectures during the day just like University and everybody goes through a series of exercises at different times of the day
00:37:52
and different times of the week but essentially everybody goes through the same curriculum and everybody has the same grades and then those grades are
00:37:59
all measured against each other and the bottom performers are cut out and the top performers get to stay that
00:38:04
curriculum what is involved in that curriculum you mentioned a few things there is um learning how to kill people
00:38:10
involved in the curriculum no that is not involved in the curriculum not at the basic training level do they teach
00:38:15
you that uh they teach some people that but they don't teach everybody that it depends on the discipline that you're
00:38:20
part of if you're a paramilitary officer you need to learn how to kill and you need to learn how to kill in different ways kill quickly kill quietly kill with
00:38:28
blunt weapons clear with bladed weapons or kill with bladed weapons kill with projectile weapons so kill with
00:38:36
explosives you know dearm explosives so it all depends on the the caliber the
00:38:41
level of officer that you're kind of put put into so paramilitary they must learn that but your standard human
00:38:47
intelligence field collector they need to learn how to live and work without being caught so if you kill
00:38:54
somebody it's a big deal you might get caught taught so it's much easier to teach that person how to manipulate how
00:39:00
to collect Secrets how to live and operate without ever being detected whereas a paramilitary officer doesn't need to learn all that they taught you
00:39:07
how to lie they teach you how to lie how do they teach someone how to lie it starts with a foundation of making sure
00:39:13
that you recruit people who are already liars and then once you when you're
00:39:19
sitting across from a liar you can start to understand if they're a good liar or not very quickly you've probably talked
00:39:26
people who are bad Liars talk to everything yeah yeah so
00:39:32
you know when someone's a bad liar so from that you can identify people who are good liars and then when you do find
00:39:38
a good liar you start to teach them what they already naturally do that makes them a good liar and then you start to
00:39:45
teach them how to refine that skill and you start to teach them how bad Liars operate and how you can detect a bad
00:39:52
liar and how you gain advantages you know with lies and and how to handlee as
00:39:57
an example because I promised you skills bad Liars talk a lot good liars talk a
00:40:03
little because the more you talk the more you run the risk of undermining your own lie bad Liars make a lot of
00:40:10
statements good liars ask a lot of questions because if you ask questions
00:40:15
you're not really disclosing anything about yourself so if you've ever had if you think back and you if if you
00:40:21
remember ever going to a party or ever having a date or ever being in a social
00:40:26
environment where there was somebody there that made you feel so interesting
00:40:31
but you didn't know anything about them you were talking to a very good liar what about body language is that a
00:40:37
factor in liing absolutely I mean body language is a factor in everything but body language is especially a factor in
00:40:42
lying because again going back to the idea of a skilled liar versus an unskilled liar a skilled liar knows how
00:40:48
to appear like they are telling the truth with their words and with their
00:40:53
body whereas an unskilled liar often has a disconnect and their body will say a
00:40:58
different message than what their mouth is saying consider your your stereo stereotypical jock your standard
00:41:05
European footballer or your american jock a lot of times they'll be portrayed as like somebody like yeah yeah they sit
00:41:12
bigger than life and all this other stuff right their their body shows
00:41:17
confidence and openness but then when they talk they sound like idiots right I
00:41:23
don't sure like you know totally like dude that lady like whatever they are
00:41:28
there's a disconnect their voice does not demonstrate the same confidence that their body demonstrates so you know that
00:41:34
that person is lying what they're lying about is not necessarily just the content of what they're saying but they
00:41:41
recognize they don't they can't cognitively accept the fact that they
00:41:46
are in a position where they are telling an untruth and that untruth at a minimum
00:41:52
is that they are not super confident and super comfortable they are actually uncomfortable and they are not feeling
00:41:58
confident and that's why they're stammering over themselves so when you were lying to someone um based on your training would you think a lot about
00:42:04
your body language yes and what would you do what would you what the principles of making sure your body
00:42:10
language wasn't letting the cat out of the bag I so one of the first things to do when you're when you're trying to lie
00:42:16
to somebody and again we're we're now talking about how to lie to somebody you shouldn't want to learn how to lie to
00:42:22
somebody you should want to learn how to know if somebody is lying to you but we always start this way where we want to
00:42:27
we're afraid to ask the real question which is how do I know if I'm being lied to because that shows vulnerability but if you want to learn how to lie to
00:42:34
somebody the first thing you do is you mimic the person look at you and I right now we are mirrored are your hands
00:42:40
connected under the table yeah so are mine are your feet crossed under your under your seat yeah so are mine we are
00:42:46
mirrored right now which means when you look at me subconsciously you see yourself m i want you to see yourself in
00:42:53
this exercise because if you see yourself your initial instinctive response is
00:43:00
going to be trust because who do you trust in the whole world you trust yourself so the first
00:43:06
step to being able to lie effectively is to be able to mirror the person you're lying to if I was coming at you
00:43:13
like you know right away You're G to be like I don't know who this guy is right and and similarly if I was to be like
00:43:19
just for people that are on AIO he's just like doing different postures and body languages so that that are far away
00:43:24
from my own putting his hands on the table Etc so okay makes sense so we want to mirror first and you mirror because
00:43:31
mirroring creates a foundation of trust subconsciously it creates a foundation of trust and then once you have that
00:43:37
Foundation of trust you just start kind of pushing the envelope more and more with the untruth or with the fabrication
00:43:45
that you're creating the LIE right is there anything else on the subject of telling a lie to someone that's
00:43:50
believable that we we need to be aware of in terms of skills yes so first the whole idea about there's there's two
00:43:58
important ideas that get glorified in social media that are just inaccurate
00:44:03
and the first is called eye movements you can't actually tell if somebody's lying to you based on where they Place
00:44:08
their eyes because while there are certain elements of eye movements that have
00:44:14
biological relevancy there's many many more things about eye movements that don't have biological relevancy right so
00:44:21
what I mean by that is if I ask you uh what's your old memory you just look to your left it's
00:44:29
natural to look to your left when you're from a Western Country because
00:44:35
chronologically timelines start on the left so when you ask somebody a question
00:44:40
about time and they look to the left up down or in the middle generally speaking that has biological relevancy so it's a
00:44:47
low probability that they're lying but they still could be lying when you ask somebody a question they look to the
00:44:53
upper right or the lower right or wherever they might look if if there's there's not necessarily biological
00:44:59
relevancy because they could be looking up and to the right because down and to the left it's too bright and they could
00:45:05
be looking in any number of directions because maybe they have you know a headache or maybe they have something else going on the the ability to create
00:45:12
some sense of probability about why they're making the eye movements they're making is too difficult so you can't
00:45:18
assess someone's honesty or dishonesty based off of eye movements even though you're going to hear that you can from
00:45:26
Instagram influencers and you know Discord and and everywhere on the internet you're going to hear that there's some connection that you can
00:45:32
make justifiably it's not true the same thing is also true so it is also an
00:45:39
untruth that you can rely on something known as micro Expressions micro Expressions being the number of times
00:45:45
your eyes blink or the Twitch in your face or if you're sucking on your lips these ideas that get glorified through
00:45:52
social media as indicators of of Deceit the truth is you don't know if someone
00:45:57
is lying to you until you have had enough time with the person to establish what's known as a baseline a baseline
00:46:03
means what's normal for you so I'll just
00:46:08
use you as an example 10 minutes before the cameras turned on you were a totally different person your energy is
00:46:15
different you're so much more conversational like you are just you're an awesome friendly guy when the cameras
00:46:23
are not on but you turn into an interviewer when the cameras turn on totally rational totally logical makes
00:46:30
total sense that doesn't mean that you're lying now and you were telling the truth then it means that the
00:46:35
environment has changed and nobody would know that if there wasn't a baseline most people that watch you don't ever
00:46:41
know what you're like outside of this Baseline so you have to get to know the person and then understand the variance
00:46:48
that's unusual to understand if they're lying to you exactly we call it time on target you need time on target so that
00:46:53
you can understand the Delta that the change between their Baseline and whatever pressure you're putting them
00:46:59
under was there any sort of uh consistent telltale signs that someone was lying to in an
00:47:05
interaction like you know what I mean what you know certain you know nervous things that they do change you know what
00:47:11
are those variances that you might see that you go this person's now lying to me yeah so with unskilled Liars it
00:47:17
becomes much easier because a lot of times with skilled Liars with people who have either learned how to lie through
00:47:22
formal training or people who have learned how to lie through the school of Hard Knocks when there's people who are
00:47:28
skilled Liars it's difficult to find generic tells with people who are
00:47:34
unskilled Liars it's much easier to find generic tells there are people who you've heard of being on the hot seat
00:47:41
it's a it's a phrase we use in Western culture pretty often like when someone is under pressure we call them being in a hot seat when you've got an unskilled
00:47:49
liar they can't stop moving their body like they're just they're always uncomfortable and they just keep moving
00:47:55
and they keep twitching and they keep fidgeting and it's like they're sitting in a hot seat that is one of the biggest tells of
00:48:02
an unskilled liar and again anybody who's ever had like a a six-year-old or an eight-year-old or a 12-year-old try
00:48:08
to lie to them they know what that looks like they can't make eye contact they do a lot of like verbal uh noises that
00:48:17
aren't actual words they can't get comfortable that keep moving around they keep shifting
00:48:22
Shifty those are all all those words came from real world examples of an unskilled liar trying to lie but you
00:48:29
don't need micro expressions of the face or to know which way their eyes are tracking in order to pick up on that
00:48:35
going back to your training then what were some of the other most important transferable skills that you learned throughout that process the most
00:48:41
interesting and useful things that we learned during training actually had to do with the psychological processes that
00:48:47
people go through and being able to understand the process and then predict and identify when the process is
00:48:52
happening those are the things that really make a huge difference yes it's cool to learn how to do a dead drop and
00:48:58
yes it's cool to learn how to detect surveillance or how to drive a car through a roadblock right those are all
00:49:05
very interesting things but the most useful things are the things that you can use all day every day through
00:49:11
multiple types of interactions uh and there are a series of processes a number of processes that we learned that had to
00:49:17
do with human psychology one of those processes is understanding the idea of core motivations core motivations are
00:49:25
remember how we talked about manipulation and motivation are two sides of the same coin when you understand all the different options of
00:49:32
the currency that you're working with you can work with it more effectively so people are generally despite age race
00:49:39
Creed or religion people have four basic motivations and we call those four basic
00:49:44
motivations rice R I C stands for reward ideology coercion and ego reward is
00:49:52
anything that you want money free vacations pat on the back uh women
00:49:59
alcohol if that's something that you want and me giving it to you gives you
00:50:05
what you want then that's a reward people do lots of crazy things for rewards and these rewards change every
00:50:10
time and by based on person okay right the second primary motivator is ideology
00:50:15
ideology is the things that you believe in people do crazy things for the things they believe in whether it's their
00:50:21
religion whether it's their country whether it's family whether it's what they believe is more Al correct right so
00:50:27
if you can assign if you can speak to somebody through the lens of their ideology you can get them to do
00:50:32
incredible things C is coercion coercion is all the negative things guilt shame
00:50:39
blackmail anything that you do to force someone to take certain action by leaning into the negative element of
00:50:46
motivation which is also known as manipulation that falls under the sea or coercion and then e ego is everything
00:50:54
that has to do with how the person views themselves so often times ego gets
00:50:59
oversimplified into thinking that it's just people who have a big ego right somebody like Donald Trump who has a big
00:51:04
ego or you name the famous actor who has a big ego ego is also people who don't
00:51:10
have big egos Mother Teresa had an ego she wanted to sacrifice for other people
00:51:17
she wanted other people to see her sacrificing for other people that is also ego so with these four core
00:51:24
motivations you have a rubric a process to understand why other people do what
00:51:30
they do if you understand why other people do what they do all you have to do is connect what they care about with
00:51:37
what you want them to do and you just increase the probability of them doing what you want them to do of these four
00:51:43
core motivations are is there an order of the strength that they have over
00:51:49
people so if you were really trying to get someone to do something you'd focus on this core motivation over that one
00:51:54
yes absolutely ideology is the strongest ego is the second strongest reward is
00:52:00
the third strongest and coercion is the weakest this is one of the things that movies get wrong movies try to make it
00:52:06
look like you can blackmail somebody or hold a gun to their head and get them to do what you want them to do in the real
00:52:11
world once you hold a gun to someone's head they never trust you again you can never get them to do something twice
00:52:18
whereas if you appeal to their ideology doing this is good for your country doing this is good for your family doing
00:52:25
this is good for your health if you can appeal to someone's ideology they'll do what you tell them to do for a long time
00:52:32
because they'll trust you is this really the the essence of manipulation then that is the essence of motivation and
00:52:37
manipulation the same coin you'll hear me come back to this because one of the things that people really struggle with
00:52:43
outside of intelligence is they feel like they have to label things as good or bad when you
00:52:50
have moral flexibility you take away good and bad everything just just becomes a question
00:52:56
of utility or productivity if it's if you need someone to do something and you
00:53:02
can motivate them then you should but if you need someone to do something and you can't motivate
00:53:08
them that's a green light to manipulate them because you still need them to do what you need them to do if you feel bad
00:53:15
about manipulating somebody you are not going to do well in the intelligence world how might you you said the
00:53:20
ideology is the strongest of the four of core of the core motivations how might you go about finding out someone's
00:53:26
ideology in the context of business and life a lot of times people will volunteer it to you there's there's two
00:53:33
ways if you're a keen Observer people will volunteer to you you've already volunteered that you are ideologically
00:53:39
predisposed to fatherhood you've already talked about it the reason that you're worried about [ __ ] up your kids that
00:53:44
you don't even have yet is because you're thinking about fatherhood so clearly you are ideologically
00:53:49
predisposed to what it means to be a responsible father you want to be seen as a responsible father plays into your
00:53:55
ego as well MH so I'm sure when you're talking to your partner if you guys are already looking at where would we go to
00:54:02
school where would we live what kind of diapers should we use if you're even thinking about that you're thinking about it through the lens of the
00:54:09
ideology of being an Engaged present helpful loving father right so people
00:54:15
will volunteer it your your customer base will volunteer to you what their ideologies are they'll volunteer their
00:54:22
politics they'll volunteer their their pain from their childhood they'll volunteer their pain from business if
00:54:29
you listen if you listen the second way that you can get to understand the
00:54:34
ideology of your customer base is through active marketing the right kind of marketing not mass marketing not the
00:54:42
kind of garbage that you see on Instagram and and YouTube about you know how to make people believe in your brand
00:54:49
because you use the right colors but actual marketing where you present a
00:54:54
message message and that message was crafted with an emotion behind it people
00:55:00
who respond to that intentionally crafted message are showing what their
00:55:06
motivations are because they were clearly motivated Enough by the message to take action you've heard a lot of
00:55:13
people talk about narrative especially in politics there's you know oh there's the there's the liberal narrative and
00:55:20
there's the Republican narrative and there's the conservative narrative and the church narrative and people talk a
00:55:25
lot about narrative narrative is not the power in influence the power in
00:55:31
influence actually comes from messaging it takes two steps to get to a narrative
00:55:36
it takes messaging first and then messaging builds a narrative if you think about messaging messaging is
00:55:42
supposed to be an emotional thing just a statement just a message just like a text message
00:55:49
right are you afraid of being the kind of father that isn't present for your kids that creates Motion in the right
00:55:57
ideologically predisposed person there's no woman out there who's going to be motivated by that she might
00:56:04
be motivated to tell her partner about that but it's not going to it's not going to resonate with her like it
00:56:09
resonates with me as a father of young children but that's just the message
00:56:15
then the narrative is not emotional in nature The Narrative is logical in
00:56:21
nature so you use an emotional message to communicate a logical
00:56:27
narrative are you afraid of being the kind of father that wasn't that's not present for your child oh man that just
00:56:33
like that pulls in my heartstrings well then all you have to do is sign up for this app that reminds you every Sunday
00:56:41
to read your kids a story you're like oh that makes total sense all I need is a reminder and I'm going to be a good dad
00:56:47
and that's messaging a narrative the same thing happens in politics the same thing happens in geopolitics the same
00:56:53
thing happens the whole world over because in the intelligence world we understand messaging and narrative we
00:57:00
know how to use messaging a narrative it's how you elect a president it's the reason that that Saudi Arabia went to
00:57:06
war with Iran over Yemen like it it's everybody understands at a national
00:57:13
security level the idea of creating a message or a narrative using emotional
00:57:18
messaging but when it comes to business people don't get it yet they they haven't learned that lesson yet because
00:57:24
they've all been taught through an NBA program or something else that you sell toothpaste by creating more toothpaste
00:57:30
with brighter colors on more shelves thinking about ideology has and everything you just said there has your
00:57:37
experience over the last I don't know 20 30 years really made you rethink and look at the world entirely differently
00:57:43
because if you are so focused and able to detect and understand messaging and narrative you must just see it
00:57:48
everywhere you go in everything you do right so there were two big aha moments for me and the first was in in the very
00:57:55
beginning parts of my training at CIA I mean when I went through all of the CIA recruiting process and and all of my
00:58:01
time in the military I just felt like I was doing the right thing I just felt like I was doing a good job I felt like
00:58:07
I was special right like wow I must be super special because I'm getting picked
00:58:12
for the National Clandestine Service so I felt like I was doing everything right and then I actually
00:58:19
ended up going through my training program where they confirmed that I actually was broken in certain ways I
00:58:27
was high performing because I had trauma as a child I I lie and I steal and I
00:58:34
have no problem with sociopathy because I'm not mentally healthy right
00:58:42
like that's basically what they confirmed like you're wired in a certain way that's really useful but you're
00:58:48
actually not neurotypical you're not you're not successful in the way way
00:58:54
that you thought you were successful but you are still very useful and oh by the way you're even more special because now
00:59:01
you work for CIA so don't ever stop working for CIA because they know that what drives
00:59:07
us is our ideology right our ideology and then our ego so they they hook us
00:59:13
that way so for me that was my first big aha moment because up until then I always thought maybe I understood the
00:59:19
world but nobody else seemed to understand it the way I understood it like I I could see the hypocrisy in high
00:59:26
school and I could see the hypocrisy in my mom and my dad and they would do things that were different than what they would tell me to do and I don't
00:59:32
understand how is the customer always right but then like sometimes the the
00:59:38
company wins the lawsuit like it doesn't make sense how how how is there a legal structure but
00:59:46
criminals don't go to jail in if there's a legal structure like I remember seeing
00:59:51
it all and thinking that it didn't make sense but never actually being confident enough to say anything about it because
00:59:59
it was a secret and I didn't feel comfortable sharing that secret CIA then taught me you're what you're seeing is
01:00:07
actually the world as it really is and let's train you to show you and give you
01:00:12
a vocabulary to understand what you're seeing let's teach you about human psychology so you understand why it
01:00:17
works the way that it works why everybody sees it and nobody talks about it right so that was my first big aha
01:00:25
moment and then my second big aha moment came when I when I left CIA and I was
01:00:31
unemployed for like six months living in my in-law's converted garage with a
01:00:37
one-year-old child wondering how the [ __ ] I did so many things so wrong that
01:00:42
I couldn't get a job even though I was just part of the CIA and in that in that time feeling
01:00:51
like just the world's biggest loser the only only skill that I could lean on was what the CIA had taught me
01:00:58
to do so then I lied my way into a fortune 10
01:01:04
company and all of a sudden I wasn't a loser anymore and once I realized that I
01:01:09
could use CIA skills to succeed in business that was my second big aha
01:01:14
moment so now everything I see I see through a lens of CIA skills in a
01:01:20
business World perception versus perspective was one of the other things that I've heard you talk about um was a
01:01:26
quite a big I guess shift in understanding but something that the regular person doesn't really understand
01:01:33
yeah so the idea of perception and perspective uh I have to Define them
01:01:38
first right perception is what you believe you see where you sit is how you
01:01:45
perceive the world around you perspective is how other people see
01:01:51
where you're sitting so when I think about us right now across the table from each other my perception is what I see
01:01:59
of you your perspective is very different than my perception right at a
01:02:04
at a minimum I'm looking at you with a background that's different than when you're looking at me with a background
01:02:10
so the benefit the advantage that CIA gives its field officers is that it
01:02:15
trains us to recognize and distrust our perception because perception really
01:02:22
only comes from from one source and that is your own five senses you are the
01:02:27
source of information for your perception So for anybody who's ever seen like a little pile of socks in the
01:02:34
lower left hand corner and they thought it was a rat and they jump until they realize it's socks that is your
01:02:40
perception lying to you perspective means that you get data objectively from
01:02:47
the world around you so if you're in your room and you see a pile of black in the corner your perspective tells you
01:02:52
this is your room there's never been a rat in your room ever before that pile in the corner is probably something like
01:02:58
socks you know perspective keeps things objective perception makes things very
01:03:03
subjective or very emotional so CIA trains us to lean into our perspective
01:03:10
gain perspective think about things objectively because if you lean on your perception you're leaning on emotions
01:03:17
and emotions are very likely wrong how how can I train myself to lean more on my perspective there's two really quick
01:03:23
things that you can do the first is is immediately distrust your emotions know
01:03:29
right away when you're feeling emotions in other words what I'm saying is don't trust your gut which is the antithesis
01:03:37
of what most people tell you to do most people say trust your gut I'm telling you right now your gut is more often
01:03:42
than not lying to you because your gut is based in Emotion your girlfriend's not about to dump you your boyfriend
01:03:48
isn't cheating on you you're not about to go bankrupt nobody cares about the
01:03:54
zit on your nose right that is most likely true there's a small chance that
01:04:01
your perception is correct but when it comes to gambling are you going to bet on the small chance or the bigger chance
01:04:08
you should always you should always gamble on the bigger chance the bigger chance you only really understand
01:04:14
through perspective if you have perspective on something then you have multiple data points on something so
01:04:19
when you feel yourself getting emotional stop and let your emotion happen for a
01:04:24
second right I feel nervous I feel anxious I feel doubtful okay I probably don't have to you
01:04:32
probably shouldn't because whoever's sitting across the table from you whoever's coming into the room with you
01:04:37
whoever else is on the bus with you they are all focused on a thousand different things and the things that they're
01:04:43
focused on most likely don't include you sounds easier said than done correct is
01:04:49
is that a process of repetitions to train yourself to think like that it is it it takes U momentum so what ends up
01:04:56
having to happen is that you need to exercise it intentionally at first and
01:05:02
what happens is as you intentionally exercise your perspective over perception what will start to happen is
01:05:09
your you will start to see that what you were worried about doesn't happen and
01:05:17
then once you see it not happen once you see your perspective give you the correct
01:05:23
information over your persp perception once you see that happen once then it starts to gain momentum and then it
01:05:29
happens again and it gains more momentum and more momentum and more momentum until the time comes that you realize
01:05:35
it's much easier but it is it's a learned skill you have to learn to think objectively instead of subjectively
01:05:41
think rationally instead of emotionally and a big part of what helps you do that is understanding that 90% of the people
01:05:48
out there they're all trapped in their own perception they're all trapped in
01:05:54
thinking emotionally they don't even know that there's an alternative just think about this man the conversation
01:06:00
we're having right now the people who are hearing this conversation right now who have never heard that there's a difference between perception and
01:06:05
perspective are already better equipped than all the other [ __ ] who have never heard this conversation they
01:06:12
are already one step ahead of their competition they're one step ahead of their of their spouses their Partners
01:06:17
their bullies they're one step ahead of everybody because now they can use the words perception and perspective subject
01:06:24
and objective emotional and logical and rational they can use these words to Define how they want to think even if
01:06:29
they don't think that way yet that's the huge advantage to what CIA calls the trained and the
01:06:36
untrained trained people at least are aware that there's an alternative option
01:06:42
untrained people aren't even aware that there's an option the vast majority of
01:06:47
people out there or what I call bobbleheads they don't even know there's an option they're completely unaware of
01:06:54
an alternative solution an alternative process so they're trapped in their
01:07:00
perception they're trapped in their emotion they're trapped in their subjectivity and that makes it so much
01:07:06
easier for people like you and me and everyone listening right now to use rational objective perspective to get
01:07:13
those people to do whatever we want them to do you've had um a lot of recent success in business you know um with
01:07:19
your company everyday spy and other Ventures that you've been involved in
01:07:24
what are some of the fundamental skills that um you find yourself transferring directly from your CIA experience every day when
01:07:33
you're closing business at CIA that there's a saying at CIA that I realized is also a saying in business that I
01:07:39
didn't realize until afterwards and it's called kissing a lot of frogs M and it's a salesmanship term outside of CIA where
01:07:46
it means that you have to you have to call a lot of leads you have to shake a lot of hands you have to make a lot of pitches before one of them turns into
01:07:53
into a prince right at CIA we have the same concept but for a different reason
01:07:59
because finding a person who is willing to tell you state
01:08:05
Secrets willing to risk their life to give away the secrets that they were usted with that's what that's what an
01:08:12
actual asset does right when when CIA sends a field officer to you name the
01:08:19
country when they recruit an asset from from that country what they are actually
01:08:25
recruiting is a foreign National who is a local of that country who has access to State Secrets who is willing to share
01:08:32
those State secrets in exchange for something else money alcohol pornography
01:08:38
you name it right who knows what they're after but your job is to find the person who has secrets and give the person the
01:08:45
thing that they want in exchange for those secrets that is a rare person to find it
01:08:51
is hard to find a a willing collaborator
01:08:57
from a foreign country who has access to secrets and is willing to share those secrets with you in exchange for some kind of remuneration very very difficult
01:09:03
to find but if you can find a spy if you can find a Trader you can make a sale
01:09:10
right the two skills are incredibly uh interconnected so what I found is that
01:09:16
this this uh the process and the skills that we use to find an asset translate
01:09:21
immediately into business everything from how you talk to the person so that
01:09:27
you can identify their core motivations gaining perspective over that person's
01:09:32
position in life if you can gain the perspective of your customers you already know what your customer's thinking you already know what they want
01:09:38
you already know what their problems are you know what their problems are going to be because you can sit in their shoes
01:09:44
but they can't sit in your shoes which gives you the advantage so the the
01:09:49
process in Espionage is a process called sad rat sad d r a t
01:09:55
very similar to the the rice acronym I gave you earlier Sadat is a process of human intelligence conversion or
01:10:01
collection the sad rat process is actually the foundation to my company's sales process all of our marketing for
01:10:09
digital sales all of our human interactions all of our uh upselling and
01:10:15
everything else all falls into the same sad rat process that I learned at CIA only we use it for sales and we use it
01:10:20
for marketing Sadat Sadat stands for spot assess develop recruit handle and
01:10:27
terminate that's what Sadat stands for uh and in classic uh classic US
01:10:33
Government acronym jargon handle starts with an H but in the acronym we use the
01:10:39
letter A spot assess develop recruit
01:10:45
handle terminate spot means you find a potential client right recruit means you
01:10:52
sell that client on your product in exchange your product in exchange for their money right assess is a step that
01:11:00
we use at CIA to determine whether or not somebody will be a good productive
01:11:06
client often times in sales people skip that step yeah they don't think about a good productive customer a good
01:11:12
productive customer has lifetime customer value a good productive customer turns into referrals turns into
01:11:18
positive reviews and positive ratings they have infinite value more than just the money give you an exchange for your
01:11:25
service assess is a critical piece in the CIA recruitment process it's also a
01:11:32
very important piece in my company I'll tell tell you something which kind of validates that from my own experience before we continue on that point of
01:11:38
assess um in the first couple years of my first company we would just take out any customer and when we looked at our
01:11:44
um Financial record for the previous year what we noticed was that there was a cohort of customers that were exceptionally valuable and even though
01:11:50
we' won business with this other set of customers we were actually losing money because they were only lasting for a month so we made this sort of um
01:11:57
framework to determine the customers that we should actually say no to basically as you say based on their
01:12:03
lifetime value and we figured out that there's a certain type of brand that has a certain size budget that has a certain
01:12:09
number of employees that is trying to solve a certain type of problem that would be exceptionally profitable for us
01:12:16
so when we got the inquiries coming through our website we were now looking at the inquiries through that lens and measuring them through that lens because
01:12:22
it became so clear that all of our best customers fit into the sort of top right of this this sort of vend diagram and
01:12:28
that's what I hear when you say SS and it was absolutely gamechanging for our business but most entrepreneurs will
01:12:34
just take every customer and they think of all of them as having the same potential in lifetime value exactly you just nailed the word gamechanging you
01:12:40
can play the game by just selling to anybody but if you want to change the game you have to make sure that you're
01:12:46
selling to a very deliberate cohort of customers because those customers not only yield more Revenue per customer but
01:12:54
they bring in more customers like them which is where you get an exponential level of not Revenue but Profit just
01:13:02
like you said you you talked about a very profitable group of clients not a high Revenue group of clients so when
01:13:09
you focus the conversation on profit instead of Revenue and you focus it on the right customer instead of just
01:13:15
customer it it's game changing for your company so you would assess Targets in
01:13:20
the CIA for using the same sort of framework yep using the same framework because in in recruitment operations
01:13:27
what you're looking for is people who will be good assets in the business framework what you're looking for is
01:13:33
people who will be good customers an asset and a customer are almost the same thing right a customer is the most
01:13:39
important asset of a company and what does a customer do a customer provides something of value in exchange for
01:13:47
something they want what does an asset do they provide something of value and exchange for something they want so it's
01:13:53
really a one for one comparison as long as you understand the language of Espionage and the language of business
01:13:59
so what we did in Espionage is every time you're you're trying to develop a source you're always asking yourself the
01:14:06
question will this Source be a good reliable asset in the future will they
01:14:12
do what we tell them to do will they be able to provide information in the long term not just once or twice right is the
01:14:19
information they provide high value information it's the same thing you're doing with a customer will this customer
01:14:25
do what I tell them to do will this customer provide high levels of value will this customer last for a long time
01:14:32
use the word Espionage a few times there what is the definition of the word Espionage Espionage is defined as the
01:14:38
stealing of secrets so Espionage is always illegal there's no country in the world that says that Espionage is legal
01:14:45
so Espionage is it's uh when CIA commits Espionage when MI6 commits ESP ESP they
01:14:54
have a a carve out in their law as it pertains to their own undercover clandestine services so that a American
01:15:02
can conduct Espionage overseas and not be prosecutable for that Espionage under
01:15:08
us law if they're part of CIA same thing is true in the UK an MI6 officer can
01:15:13
commit Espionage overseas and not be held accountable for it under British
01:15:18
law they're it's a carve out otherwise if you're a British citizen committing espionage anywhere in the UK or abroad
01:15:25
you are punishable under UK law I've heard you say that spnr really is about getting people to let you into their
01:15:31
Secret Lives correct what is our secret life so uh you know I I if you go back
01:15:38
to an earlier part in our conversation we were talking about how when you trust people you'll tell them your secrets
01:15:43
right when you help people they'll tell you their secrets there are three lives
01:15:49
that any anybody lives we have a public life a private life and a secret life
01:15:55
the public life is the life that we're all very familiar with right it's the life that you live for everybody else to see not just the people who watch your
01:16:02
podcast and the people who you know work for you and your company but your public life also includes what you show your
01:16:07
friends it includes what you show your church it includes who you are when you walk down the street the clothes that
01:16:13
you choose to wear are a perfect example of your public life it's what you want people to think of you remember the e in
01:16:20
rice Mother Teresa wanted people to see her assert way that is her public life
01:16:26
when you're in Espionage the goal is to get away from the public life because if you want someone to give you secrets you
01:16:33
can't get secrets from somebody who's in their public life because they're protected in their public life so you
01:16:39
have to move them from public into secret and the middle step between public and secret is private life so you
01:16:47
have to move somebody from public life to private life private life is a life that your partner knows private life is
01:16:53
the life that your closest friends know your mom and your dad may know it it's the people who know that your feet secretly stink it's the people who know
01:17:00
that you don't really like to eat oysters because whatever they give you gas that that's all stuff that's private
01:17:06
your business partners don't know that your customers don't know that the people who watch your podcast don't know that and it makes the people in your
01:17:13
private life feel like they know you and it's what makes it so that for you in your public life you feel like you have
01:17:19
meaningful relationships because instead of 200 people who you kind of know now
01:17:25
you've got 15 people who are in your private life they know your home address they know your birthday you know they
01:17:32
know your favorite ice cream it makes you feel good inside of someone's private life they will share
01:17:38
sensitivities but they may still not share secrets because it's one thing to
01:17:43
secretly tell somebody that you're worried about your business you're worried about the next revenue cycle
01:17:49
you're worried about maybe your wife is having an affair those things things are uncomfortable but you'll share them with
01:17:56
people in your private life but you would never tell someone in your private life that you're having an affair you
01:18:02
would never tell someone in your private life that you hit your child you would never tell someone in your private life
01:18:09
that your parents sexually molested you or whatever else those dark deep Secrets
01:18:15
only live in your secret life the life that's so secretive that you don't even
01:18:22
share it with the people in your private life what we're trained to do is to follow a process that allows us to meet
01:18:29
somebody in their public life get them to let us into their private life and then get them to let us into their
01:18:36
secret life because it's a very like simple psychological process to get into
01:18:44
someone's secret life because secretly we all want somebody in our secret life
01:18:50
we all want to have someone we can tell our secret secrets too we just don't trust anybody in our private life enough
01:18:57
to get there so if you know how to leverage perception and perspective use
01:19:03
the four core motivations when you know how to leverage sad rat to create trust
01:19:09
you can actually cut into someone's secret life and once you're in someone's secret life they never stop trusting you
01:19:16
they never let you leave because it was so rare and so hard to find you from
01:19:21
their perspective they don't ever want you to leave so even if you even if you
01:19:27
break their heart even if you even if you lie to them like their trust in you is so great and so strong and so
01:19:34
subconscious that you don't ever leave their secret life I'm very keen to know how you get into someone's secret life
01:19:39
and how they might get into your own and we've talked about some of those principles earlier but I was wondering if one of the um techniques you might
01:19:45
use is by sharing your own fake secret life with them to create an element of
01:19:51
comfort I think i' I've heard and I I think I know from doing this podcast generally that vulnerability creates
01:19:56
vulnerability to some extent i. if you open up to someone that they're more likely to open up to you correct there's
01:20:01
a so you're getting into now a form of mirroring much like we were talking about physical mirroring now what you're
01:20:07
talking about is emotional mirroring the there's a Nuance there because you have to know when to
01:20:16
mirror appropriately because if if you're mirroring somebody else and they
01:20:21
know that you're mirroring them then subconsciously they feel like they're in control okay interesting so what you
01:20:28
need to do is you need to mirror just enough to get to the place where you can get them to mirror you when they mirror
01:20:36
you subconsciously they know that you're in control so once you are in a position of
01:20:43
power or control in a conversation then you can use the ploy
01:20:48
of feain vulnerability which I wouldn't quite use it the same way you did I wouldn't make up something vulnerable
01:20:54
instead I would we call it opening a a window or opening a window that opens a
01:21:00
door so we have these windows and doors in conversation so opening a door means completely changing a subject right so
01:21:06
if I were to just say right now I don't really like french food that's opening a door you as the interviewer can go
01:21:13
through that door or you can close that door because it's not relevant right but if I open a window about how I have
01:21:20
certain digestive challenges that I don't like to talk about about that's a window you can always come back and push
01:21:27
on that window and get me to go through a whole new door of conversation right so when it comes to vulnerability and
01:21:34
conversing with somebody about vulnerability you want to present windows and not present doors so instead
01:21:41
of saying something that's a fake vulnerability you would say something that's a real vulnerability that may not
01:21:47
be applicable to you like perhaps you say something like you know I I have been been having massive arguments with
01:21:54
my wife recently and sometimes it makes me just want to leave home that's real
01:21:59
that's not saying I'm going to leave home it's not saying what I'm arguing about but if I believe that in your
01:22:05
secret life you are also fighting with your wife and you're living in a different room and you're not telling
01:22:10
anybody about it I want to show some sort of bridge between us that gets you
01:22:16
to admit that to me because if you can admit that to me maybe I can find out more about what you're doing to cope
01:22:23
with the fact that your marriage is falling apart maybe you have a girlfriend maybe you're on Tinder maybe
01:22:28
you're doing something else right maybe you're drinking maybe you're doing drugs I don't know but I need you to let me
01:22:34
into that secret life so I'm going to present a window and see if you go through that window so say that I was
01:22:40
the asset and you were the CIA agent you have more experience in that role than I do um and I was sat in a bar and I said
01:22:48
to you yeah God this week's been really hard at home cuz my wife she's is she's annoying me what what and you were
01:22:55
trying to get into my secret life how might you maneuver from there right so there's a the basic principle here that
01:23:01
we would use is called the two and one combination so two means two questions
01:23:07
and one means one confirmation so when you present to me a topic that I want to explore further the
01:23:14
most rudimentary of techniques out there is you present to me a topic I want to explore so I ask a followon question you
01:23:21
will answer my follow on question question because you're predisposed to answer my question I will
01:23:26
ask another followon question you'll be predisposed to answer that as well and then I'll say something that confirms
01:23:34
what you're saying that way it doesn't feel like you're being interrogated instead it feels like you're talking to
01:23:40
somebody who gets you so I'll confirm what you say like oh yeah I mean I had a girlfriend once and her feet stank so
01:23:45
bad and man it just made me want to like sleep with her feet outside of the
01:23:51
covers and then you just stop there because you've asked two follow-on questions and one confirming statement
01:23:58
the psychology of the other person is going to be to continue volunteering information and then you just repeat the
01:24:04
cycle so they give you another piece of information you follow follow-up question follow-up question confirmation
01:24:11
follow-up question followup question confirmation to you it feels formulaic
01:24:18
listen ask a follow-up question listen ask a follow-up question to them it feels like they are talking to
01:24:24
somebody who really really cares just put yourself in the shoes practice a little perspective here imagine if you
01:24:30
really were talking about something that was frustrating you and the person sitting next to you at the bar literally didn't do anything other than ask you
01:24:37
follow-up questions and agree with you you're going to feel like you get me man why can't my wife get me like you get me
01:24:44
like you know what I'm talking about I completely agree with you man tell me more oh dude and then and you can see
01:24:50
how we'll just human beings just fall right into the groove the parallel here
01:24:56
to business but also the sort of transferable skills here are quite clear from what I heard when I'm doing an
01:25:01
interview when I'm meeting a candidate for a job um when I'm trying to sell to a client really my disposition should be
01:25:08
to be doing exactly what you said asking them questions confirming asking them questions and confirming right if you
01:25:13
think about it everybody's in a in a contest for control who controls a
01:25:18
conversation the person asking the questions or the person saying the most words it's always the person asking the
01:25:24
questions because the person asking the questions determines the direction of the conversation it feels the other way
01:25:29
around though it feels like the person speaking the most has the most control and what did I tell you about feelings don't trust them don't trust your gut
01:25:36
don't trust your emotions right it feels like the person talking the most is the person in control it is not it is not
01:25:44
the person asking the questions is in control think about this interview right now I will answer whatever question you
01:25:51
bring up next if if I don't answer the next question you bring up I will feel
01:25:56
awkward because you and I both know who's in control of this conversation even though I'm the one saying the most
01:26:02
words interesting the the implications of this in sales human resourcing marketing
01:26:12
advertising it it's it's the reason my company has grown 300% every year for the last three years it's because the
01:26:19
human condition is so predict people just want to feel heard they want
01:26:26
to feel listened to and they want to feel validated you can automate that you
01:26:32
can automate the process that makes people feel heard confirmed and validated you can
01:26:37
automate it and then they will sell themselves that's how that's really good
01:26:43
digital marketing that's how it works really good direct sales that's how it
01:26:48
work that's how it works really good salesmen have already learned this real good salesmen understand that it's all
01:26:53
about getting a lead to talk about themselves as quickly as possible and then once they start talking about
01:26:59
themselves you just ask questions let them lead themselves through the sales process the problem is with most
01:27:06
business owners out there who haven't been trained in what we're talking about they feel like they have to talk the
01:27:12
most they feel like they have to get the customer to understand the benefits of the product I need to get you to hear me
01:27:19
I need to get you to listen I need to get you to understand the value of what I'm offering you that's not what the customer wants
01:27:26
that's the salesperson's perception what the customer actually wants is a product that's going to solve their problems and
01:27:33
a Salesman that's going to help them what's the kind of person that helps you the person who asks questions I'm really
01:27:40
interested in this concept of change and how the CIA drills into you that you need to accept change because in our all
01:27:47
all of our lives one of the things that most of us are quite bad at is accepting change we're very rigid again maybe
01:27:52
that's because of perception and ego and these kinds of things but when I was reading through um the what they teach
01:27:57
you at the CIA they change your relationship with change they do so a
01:28:03
big part of the advantage of having change is the fact that it's not natural
01:28:09
to accept change so if you can adapt to change faster than your opponent you have a built-in Advantage you have an
01:28:16
edge so the these three principles time distance and change in Direction these
01:28:22
three principles that CIA teaches as Concepts apply in multiple different ways so as an example time means that
01:28:29
you need to accept that things take time that time is a resource for you to use too often we feel like time is fleeting
01:28:37
time is running out we have to take action quickly like time is against us
01:28:42
that's not really true in fact time is a tool that you can use to break things
01:28:48
down Secrets Don't withstand the test of time how long will it take for you and I to
01:28:54
get into each other's Secret Lives 9 months that takes time not many people would wait 9 months for anything right
01:29:01
but time is a huge advantage that you have if all of your opponents are rushing and you're the only person who
01:29:08
isn't rushing time becomes a huge advantage to you that nobody else has explain that in the context of business
01:29:14
then so uh in business people are trying to make a rapid sale most people want an Impulse buyer right what do I have to
01:29:21
say right now to get you to buy my $7 thing I don't really want you to buy a $7 thing I want you to buy a $97 thing
01:29:29
if it takes me three weeks to get you to buy a $97 thing it takes this other person three minutes to get you to buy a
01:29:35
$7 thing who's the better salesman well I would argue that it depends on what
01:29:41
you're looking for in terms of longterm this person selling a $7 thing every 3 minutes has to find a new
01:29:48
lead they have to find arguably if they sell one out of every 10 if they convert at 10% they need to find 10 new leads
01:29:54
every 3 minutes to make $7 if I convert at 10% I need one person to buy a $97
01:30:01
thing every three weeks I have a much less Demand on my time to find new leads
01:30:07
and I can qualify my leads better and if someone's willing to spend $97 on something guess what that tells me about
01:30:13
that person they have more disposable income the $7 person I don't know anything about their disposable income
01:30:19
do they have some do they not is that Mom and Dad's credit card I don't really know I'd rather spend 3 weeks of time
01:30:27
cultivating a person who buys a $97 something because then I can sell them a $297 something and then I can sell them
01:30:33
a $997 something because I can test their threshold for Price sensitivity
01:30:38
was there any situations during your time abroad where you felt like like
01:30:45
your life was at risk or any sort of really clear parent threat yes there was
01:30:50
there's one specific moments which I'm actively trying to get cleared by CIA uh
01:30:57
to talk about where I felt like with high confidence that I had fallen under the scrutiny of a local country's
01:31:04
surveillance team so I was in a foreign country I believed I fell under their
01:31:10
surveillance apparatus and they were actively surveilling me and the country that I was in and the job that I was
01:31:15
doing in that country made me believe that if I had a surveillance team on me their goal would
01:31:21
be to apprehend me at a certain point in the operation at a point where they
01:31:27
could get the most uh propaganda and political leverage etc etc uh so that
01:31:34
occurrence happened in about 2011 and I'm trying to go through a process now to get that cleared by CIA
01:31:41
up until about nine months ago CIA was giving me the thumbs up that I'd be able to talk about it but then geopolitical
01:31:48
tensions in the world changed and CIA change their mind along with that so now
01:31:54
I'm exploring what Avenues I have to get them to adhere to their previous approval of letting me tell my story
01:32:01
versus uh being forced to adhere to my continued secrecy agreement so you were in a foreign country you felt like you
01:32:07
were under the surveillance apparatus of a foreign country what gave you that impression was it looking over your
01:32:13
shoulder and seeing something or it's the process that we're trained to use for surveillance detection so we're
01:32:18
trained in a process where you run what's known as an SDR and in that SDR you have steps methods that you use to
01:32:25
determine whether or not you are being actively surveilled and again we use time to our advantage so it's not like
01:32:32
something happened in 5 seconds and I thought I was under surveillance I intentionally carried out a series of
01:32:38
steps over say three hours or six hours and over that period of time I had enough information enough data points to
01:32:45
confirm with high confidence that I would be under surveillance SDR surveillance detection route okay and
01:32:51
that could be like a car following you or it could be a person following you or a drone following you or your phone
01:32:58
being uh acting in a certain way to make you believe that you've being digitally or cyber uh surveilled sex
01:33:05
piage everyone favorite subject it's a very real thing it's a very real thing that's used in different ways based off
01:33:12
of uh a country's civil rights so in the United States we don't really use
01:33:18
sexpionage really we don't really use it because it goes against the rights the individual rights of the citizen who
01:33:26
works at the intelligence agency right so if you tell a female intelligence
01:33:32
officer that they must sleep with this Target in order to get information you're violating her rights as a US
01:33:39
citizen in China that's not the same case in Russia that's not the same case right in the UK they're also they don't
01:33:46
subscribe to forced sex sexual acts in service of collecting intelligence
01:33:52
forced forced but you can if you want to what ends up happening is you can if you want to and for those people who do they
01:33:59
end up creating what's known as an operational security risk because once
01:34:04
sex is involved the power shift becomes untenable so if the whole goal of a
01:34:12
Handler is to maintain control over the asset once sex happens it's harder for
01:34:20
the Handler to maintain control over the asset in a objective relationship
01:34:27
because now sex leads to feelings like hormonally it leads to feelings the act
01:34:33
of orgasm releases certain hormones that create senses of connection with another
01:34:39
person right so when that oxytocin drops when that neuro epinephrine drops you
01:34:46
your body starts to tell you that you are connected to another person that is the antithesis of a proper asset Handler
01:34:54
relationship with them then we call that falling in love with your asset I wouldn't ask you if
01:35:00
you ever engaged in anything like that I appreciate that I was fortunate enough that I made all the connective hormones
01:35:06
I needed to make with my wife who was also CIA disguises did you ever a wear a disguise absolutely yeah disguises are
01:35:14
something that are much more common than people would believe and much less
01:35:19
quality than people would believe really yeah so most disguises what we actually
01:35:24
call disguises inside CIA we call them costumes we don't really call them disguises disguises is a word that's
01:35:31
used in pop media and pop culture in the real world we call them costumes and our
01:35:37
costume departments our our disguise Department the whole objective behind a
01:35:42
disguise or a costume is just to make you not look like you not to make you look like someone else not even to make
01:35:49
you look like a realistic person it's just to make sure that you don't look like you right so consider your picture
01:35:57
what you look like you have some very definitive features your nose your forehead your beard shape your hair right the the way that you hold your
01:36:03
face the neckline that you have so if we wanted to change your appearance just so that you didn't look like Steven
01:36:09
Bartlett all we'd have to do is take away those things that make you you and turn them into something else right we
01:36:16
could put a a nappy redheaded wig on you we could put giant oversized sunglass on
01:36:21
you we could shave your face or paint your beard gray or even put a fake mustache on we could put an oversized
01:36:28
necklace around your neck and now the picture of that is not going to look like the picture of Steve Barlett those
01:36:34
are all light disguises though right correct is that there's deeper types of disguises right corre I've always
01:36:40
wondered if they like plastic surgery and you know if they give a spy plastic surgery and those kinds of things uh so
01:36:46
there's three levels of Disguise there are some places that will go as far as permanent plastic
01:36:53
surgery but most Western Services won't do that because it it's it doesn't help
01:37:00
the officer like to have a permanent change to your body made doesn't make you more effective at going undercover
01:37:07
because now you're just permanently changed so you still look the way you look the value in a disguise is being
01:37:13
able to reset the disguise to reset the costume so that you don't look like
01:37:18
yourself so our three levels are level one level two level three light disguise is level one level two is long-term
01:37:25
disguise level three is something that we call prosthetic disguise so light disguise is what we talked about
01:37:31
oversized sunglasses in a nappy wig and all of a sudden you're a different a different person right you're you're
01:37:37
Loyola you're not Steve Bartlett anymore phase two is long-term disguise long-term disguise means it's still you
01:37:44
but we change you physically for a long-term operation
01:37:49
so instead of having short hair we grow your hair long long instead of having a beard we shave you clean we lose some of
01:37:55
that hard-earned body mass that you have or we gain body mass that you don't really want right maybe we put some kind
01:38:02
of fake but long-standing tattoo on you right we do something with you that changes the way you look physically it's
01:38:09
still you the reason that's important is because you always have to ask yourself the question what will a police officer
01:38:15
think when they storm into your hotel room at night if you're wearing a light disguise and a police officer storms
01:38:21
into your room at night they're going to ask questions like why do you have a wig or if you don't have a wig you just wear
01:38:27
a ball cap and a hoodie there's nothing for them to ask right they're basically saying oh this is you your license says
01:38:33
it's you and you wear this ball hat this ball cap and this hoodie all the time whatever you're not going to jail for
01:38:39
that so level one and level two disguise are are very safe it's hard to get
01:38:44
someone arrested using those two level three is what the movies are made out of that's your Prosthetics if we put put
01:38:51
fake ears on you if we put a fake nose on you if we change your eye color if we put in a fake missing tooth right
01:38:57
instead of a real missing tooth if we do that kind of stuff to you police officer breaks into your room in the middle of
01:39:03
the night now they ask why do you have a fake nose that you're not wearing right now why do you have fake eyebrows where
01:39:09
why do you have fake ears why do you have a blacked out tooth right now they look at your your ID and you don't look
01:39:17
like your ID much less common I'm guessing number very uncomon very uncommon and you would use them
01:39:22
strategically at different times but if you watch too much Mission Impossible or Alias you start to think that people we
01:39:29
disguises all the time there's so many problems to disguise there's there's so
01:39:34
many operational uh inadequacies too operational to to disguise that we could
01:39:40
have a whole conversation about it right like things don't stick to your face in the extreme cold things don't stick to
01:39:46
your face in the extreme heat or when you're sweating your ass off in the Philippines things melt
01:39:51
makeup melts the the adhesive that sticks a fake mustache to your lip
01:39:56
starts to disintegrate like there's all sorts of problems with prosthetics in real life that Tom Cruz doesn't have to
01:40:03
worry about in the movies when people think of spies doing Espionage overseas wearing disguises and all these kinds of
01:40:08
things it does make you think they must be exceptionally good at dealing with fear because a lot of people would be
01:40:14
too nervous or too anxious or whatever to not like crack under that kind of pressure if you're meeting the guy that
01:40:21
has the nuclear codes for Iran or whatever um and you've been working for nine months to meet this person you know
01:40:28
you've got to have a good handle on your own anxiety and your own fear did the
01:40:34
CIA Target people that are good at that or do they train that or is it both it's
01:40:39
both it's a great question it's both CIA wants people that carry a certain level of anxiety because when you carry
01:40:46
anxiety you're naturally paranoid which means you have heightened observational skills
01:40:51
most people who suffer from anxiety feel like they're inadequate in some way in reality they are hyper adequate they are
01:40:58
more than adequate anxiety is a superpower Through The Eyes of the CIA I would take somebody with anxiety any day
01:41:05
over somebody without anxiety because anxiety keeps you alive anxiety keeps you sharp anxiety keeps you learning it
01:41:12
keeps you attentive it's a good thing but to your second point you are also trained you are trained to understand
01:41:19
how fear works and like to oversimplify it your brain
01:41:25
has two hemispheres right a left brain and a right brain your left brain is your logical brain your right brain is
01:41:31
your emotional brain because you have two different hemispheres and they operate on a on two different bases
01:41:38
right one is based in logic one is based in emotions they actually operate and they process at different speeds your
01:41:45
logical brain processes much slower than your emotional brain which is why it
01:41:50
takes you you an instant before you're scared but it takes you maybe minutes
01:41:55
hours weeks before you're convinced so what ends up happening is fear in an
01:42:01
untrained person going back to our conversation about trained versus untrained in an untrained person fear is
01:42:07
an emotion that's processed by the emotional brain very quickly so then they react instinctively to their fear
01:42:14
that's where a lot of people who suffer from anxiety get held back when you can train someone to
01:42:21
understand that the same thing that makes them emotionally scared is also
01:42:26
being processed by their logical brain your brain is actually going through the process of determining how scared you
01:42:32
really need to be if you can just slow down the emotional brain and train the
01:42:38
rational brain to work a little bit faster your whole relationship with fear completely changes how do they train you
01:42:44
to slow down your emotional brain so that you don't react that's a big part of the reason why you have a controlled
01:42:50
training environment that lasts for multiple months because what they do is they inoculate you it's called stress
01:42:56
inoculation they inoculate you with scenarios designed specifically to
01:43:01
trigger your emotional response even though you have been trained to not trust your emotional response they
01:43:08
inoculate you so that over and over again you have to go through the process of I feel fear I have to not accept it I
01:43:15
fear I feel doubt I have to reject it I feel like I'm being watched I have to reject I have to give my rational brain
01:43:22
a chance to catch up so that I can get objective facts about the scenario and
01:43:28
there are some people who don't do it well there are some people who never inoculate themselves against fear so
01:43:35
then they end up getting cut from the farm so for the average Joe that's listening to this now or Jenny the
01:43:41
average Jenny that's listening to this now and they live a life that's held them back because of their fear you know
01:43:48
they don't take the risk they don't um raise their hand to do the presentation they don't lean into uncertainty based
01:43:54
on your training in the CIA what would you suggest that they should do to get over that fear so they need to inoculate
01:44:00
themselves as well inoculate inoculate means inoculate means expose yourself in controlled ways to fear very similar to
01:44:08
the way you inoculate against covid or you inoculate against the flu right you expose yourself to a strain that's
01:44:14
weakened so that your body can gain some sort of familiarity with it you do the same thing with fear so if if you're
01:44:20
afraid to give that presentation you're not ever going to change the fact that you're afraid to
01:44:26
give a presentation but you will be able to change something that you're less afraid of so if you're afraid of going
01:44:34
to the gym if you're afraid of uh eating at a certain restaurant down the street
01:44:39
if you're afraid of stepping out of your front door if you're afraid of asking your friend their opinion about whether
01:44:44
or not you're overweight find something small where you are less afraid of this
01:44:51
than you are of this other thing and inoculate yourself with this like lean into the small fears the fears that you
01:44:59
already know are kind of irrational and simple and if you can overcome those
01:45:04
what will happen is you will start to gain momentum and the thing that you do to inoculate yourself is to to know
01:45:10
upfront you know you're going to have an emotional reaction you already know it it's the thing that you're afraid
01:45:15
of it you can predict that so you already know I'm going to ask my buddy Steve if he thinks that I'm
01:45:22
overweight I'm terrified to ask him he's either going to say yes or no or he's going to take some Cop Out answer and
01:45:29
ask me what I think but I already know that it's going to feel uncomfortable but he's my buddy it's low risk let's
01:45:35
see how it Happ let's see what it goes right so you go and you ask the question you put yourself in the face of fear
01:45:41
you're still going to have the heart palpitations the cold sweats your emotional brain's going to take off and all your physiology is going to like let
01:45:47
loose but then Steve is going to tell you his answer and it's over and then
01:45:53
all of a sudden you're like oh that wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it was going to be and then when you do the same thing with your friend Jenny and
01:46:00
the same thing with your friend Bruce and the same thing with your friend Robert by the time Robert tells you his answer your body is not reacting the
01:46:06
same way as it did when you talked to Steve small inoculations are training your emotional
01:46:12
brain to slow down and training your rational brain to speed up so then you move on to the next most scary thing
01:46:19
without going to the scariest of things you know I was thinking about that as you you were talking and I was thinking
01:46:24
gosh I think a lot of people know that I think they know that the way to get better at speaking on stage is to go and
01:46:30
speak on stage but they're still held back by you know God if I do that I'm going to mess up and then people are
01:46:36
going to think I'm this that and the other and then I'll never XY Z right so you can say that to someone but getting
01:46:42
them to take that first step seems to be the impossibility like and and here's where here's where the former CA officer
01:46:50
in comes out because if you're too afraid to do that good I don't want you to do it because you being unable to do
01:46:57
it gives me the advantage the person who's listening to this who says to themselves I'm scared
01:47:03
but I'll do it anyways that's the person who deserves the opportunity to change their life the person who's listening to
01:47:09
this that says I'm too scared to do that good I need you to stay exactly where
01:47:15
you are because in our world the the Flatout truth is our world needs cogs
01:47:23
our world needs people who are trapped in the consumer cycle we need those people because the people who are
01:47:30
trapped in that consumer cycle the people who are prisoners to their fear are the people who run the economy it's
01:47:38
the people who are willing to break that cycle and capitalize on the fears that
01:47:43
you can't overcome those are the people who actually provide you the service that you need because you can't do it by
01:47:49
yourself so I want to encourage the people who are willing to take the scary
01:47:54
step and I also want to discourage the people who already know that they're too
01:48:00
afraid we need both as you know weer sponsor of this podcast and I'm an investor in the company I've spoken
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risk-free with zero commitment to see how impactful it can be for you you met
01:48:59
your wife while you were um an undercover CIA operative yeah it was uh
01:49:04
I'm I am still to this day very thankful that she is a poor judge of
01:49:12
character in 2014 you leave the CIA age 34 years old you both resigned together
01:49:18
we both resigned together why uh it was mostly my idea my wife had a stellar
01:49:23
career uh we had a one-year-old child at the time and we were at a point in our
01:49:28
career coming off of very successful operations together right before that where we were both kind of middle
01:49:34
management and that middle management lifestyle meant that we're spending 12 to 16 hours a day on the job just like
01:49:40
most people but the difference is when you're spending 16 hours a day on the job it means that you're in a skiff
01:49:47
somewhere you're you can't take your work home you can't work from home so you're literally absent from the house
01:49:54
so trying to coordinate two 16-hour schedules along with a one-year-old when neither of us signed up to be that kind
01:50:01
of parent we both wanted to be the kind of parent that was present for our children and instead we're giving our
01:50:07
child to some daycare center and paying extra overage fees to have that daycare center keep the baby for 12 hours a
01:50:13
day it's it's a sucky situation so for family reasons more so than for career reasons
01:50:20
we both decided hey let's let's double down on family and let's see if we can't start all over again are you going to
01:50:26
leave America in 2030 I'm going to try and leave America in 2027 I read that somewh why why are you going to try and
01:50:32
leave America in 2027 so I think the United States is going through a very difficult time right now and I think
01:50:38
most people understand that uh we are a young country no matter how much we think that we are the best in the world
01:50:46
we are actually going through the early part of our adolescence as a nation and
01:50:51
you can see it playing out every day in the headlines you can see it in our in our role in geop geopolitical events you
01:50:59
can see that we are we're suffering in terms of trying to identify ourselves we don't know do
01:51:06
we want to be a real democracy do we want to be kind of a partial democracy do we want to treat everybody as equal
01:51:12
do we not want to treat everybody as equal we're we struggling in the same way that you and I did through Middle School right my children mean the world
01:51:20
to me and what I want to do is give them a life where they have the choice to do
01:51:27
anything they want to do unfortunately I don't believe our country for the next 5 to 10 years is
01:51:34
going to be the kind of country that allows children of today to choose and
01:51:40
be whatever they want to be I think our country has some growing up of its own to do before we really offer people
01:51:46
equal access to Opportunities so for me if I was my 11-year-old
01:51:54
son when I turned 15 or 16 years old and I start to really care about something I
01:52:00
would like to be in a place where I can explore that thing I don't think that's going to be in the United States I think that's going to be in Europe I think
01:52:07
that's going to be in the Middle East I think that's going to be in Latin America where he will have all the advantages of the
01:52:12
world outside of the United States what do you think about what's going on at the moment with geopolitics as it relates to like China and the US um
01:52:20
there's a bit of a power struggle going on and there has been but a lot of people forecast that China is eventually going to overtake or maybe it already
01:52:27
has the us as the sort of global economic Force um are you preparing for
01:52:32
that do you think it's going to happen I think that there's there's two realistic
01:52:37
outcomes and there's one less realistic outcome the most realistic outcome is that the United States and China
01:52:44
continue to compete and reach par equality with each other that's that's
01:52:50
the most realistic outcome maybe the United States remains 10% bigger maybe China gets 2% bigger economically but
01:52:57
they approach parity they approach equality I don't want to live in the United States when it loses
01:53:07
so much status that another country reaches economic par think about that for a second the world is accustomed to
01:53:15
one superpower once there are two superpowers everything changes there's
01:53:21
two massive languages and you're going to have to choose which language you speak there's two currencies which
01:53:26
currency are you going to save your your money in there's competing priorities there's competing politics there's
01:53:32
equally massive sophisticated militaries when you are in one of those
01:53:37
two countries at the moment that they reach parody you are in the most dangerous position because the number
01:53:44
one target for China will be the United States the number one target for the United States will be China right now
01:53:49
now there's not parity there's not equality so the United States has to worry about everybody and China doesn't
01:53:55
really have to worry about many people at all but as the that equality gets closer and closer there's more and more
01:54:01
threat think about it in business terms when you're the industry leader in your business Google you don't have to worry
01:54:08
about much you have to worry about all the little guys but nobody's really a direct threat but as soon as somebody else Rises to meet you you have to worry
01:54:15
about it the leader used to be Yahoo right Yahoo had to see what it's like to
01:54:21
lose and gain par with Google only to then be eclipsed right so most probable
01:54:26
outcome we reach par second most probable outcome is that China does
01:54:31
supersede Us by small amounts right 5% GDP 10% GDP and the United States has to
01:54:38
regain its momentum to try to gain back the edge so now you have this cycle back
01:54:46
and forth right where for five years China is thead leading GDP for 5 years the United States is the leading GDP and
01:54:52
you have this waffling back and forth which makes you even less secure than if you were in direct parody but that's
01:55:00
that's a scary place to be as well you still have to lose all the influence to get there and when you're there you
01:55:05
never know how long it's going to last do you think we're already engaged in a form of World War II yeah absolutely I
01:55:10
think World War III is already happening I think World War III is not what people think it was going to be I think people
01:55:17
were afraid that World War II was somehow going to look like another World War II instead World War III is a a war
01:55:24
of proxy Nations it's a war it's a war where smaller third world countries are
01:55:29
competing against each other and they're being funded by larger countries that are actually in conflict with one
01:55:35
another Ukraine and Russia us is funding Ukraine Russia is obviously taking care of itself but the real conflict in
01:55:42
Ukraine isn't about Ukraine it's about the West versus Russia the same thing's going to happen with Taiwan and China
01:55:48
when the time comes that that China makes its biggest move on Taiwan it's already made small moves on Taiwan when
01:55:54
it makes its largest move on Taiwan it's going to become a question of China versus the west and whoever supports
01:56:00
Taiwan so going back to where we started then um the average Joe The Average
01:56:05
Joe's listening to this conversation now what they really want is to make their life better and whatever subjective measure that they consider better to be
01:56:11
um they want to start that business they want to launch that project they want to going to get get outside of this sort of
01:56:16
emotional prison that they live in where their life is ated by perception what they what they think their own sort of
01:56:22
confines of their identity what is the sort of closing argument and closing advice you give to the average Jo to
01:56:28
liberate themselves so that they can pursue whatever they want to pursue so the the most important thing is to take
01:56:33
action that is the most even if it's the wrong action if you take the wrong step
01:56:39
if you take the first step in the wrong direction the difference between you and the person who doesn't take a step at all is the world you have to take the
01:56:47
first step you have to take some kind of action just by taking action you show that you're not trapped by fear you show
01:56:54
that you're willing to challenge your own perception of the world and try to gain some perspective it doesn't matter
01:57:01
what that action is I don't care whether you read a book whether you buy a program whether you whether you sell your first prototype take some kind of
01:57:09
action because nine out of every 10 people are not going to take any action
01:57:15
you already have an advantage just by trying and so few people understand that
01:57:20
they think there's some kind of advantage in waiting there isn't the longer you wait all you're really doing
01:57:27
is giving the other nine people a chance to be the first one to take a step if you take the first step you beat the
01:57:32
competition right out of the gates and you know this as well as I do even if your first three or four steps are
01:57:38
fumbles and trips and you fall in your face by the time you stand up you're four steps away from the rest of the
01:57:44
competition and you've learned a lot in those first four steps so my suggestion is
01:57:49
take action take action using the skills that we talked about today take action using the skills that you've talked
01:57:54
about on some other podcast just take action identity we talked about how the the CIA kind of rewrite your identity a
01:58:01
little bit so that you know it gives you some sort of cover but one of the things that stops us taking action is our own
01:58:08
identity what have you come to learn and what do you think now about the role of identity how it gets in our way and how
01:58:14
we can liberate ourselves from it the worst person to determine who who you
01:58:19
are is often times you because you see it all you live in your own secret life
01:58:26
the rest of the world sees your public life even if your public life is accidental the world sees you
01:58:32
differently than you see yourself so when you look at yourself it's like looking through a magnifying glass you
01:58:39
see every wart you see every every crevice you see everything wrong because
01:58:44
you have the magnifying glass the rest of the world not only do they not have a magnifying glass but they're standing 10t away from you so they see something
01:58:52
very different than what you see so a lot of times whatever you think about yourself is actually inaccurate when you
01:59:00
apply it against the test of perspective because what other people see and what other people think of you you are
01:59:06
usually very wrong from what they think we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a
01:59:12
question for the next guest not knowing who they're going to be leaving it for now the question that's been left for you in the Diary of a CEO is um
01:59:21
very very interesting what is something you used to strongly
01:59:28
believe that you have fundamentally changed your mind
01:59:34
on I used to believe that
01:59:40
people could be equal and fundamentally now I know that
01:59:48
people will never be equal because equality is not really
01:59:53
the thing that we're after what we're secretly after that we don't want to admit to is we're always after being
02:00:00
better having more being in a better position than everyone else so we will
02:00:06
constantly strive to take advantage of secrets to take advantage of opportunities to find an edge that we do
02:00:13
not share with other people but publicly we will say that we wish there was more
02:00:18
equality and that we want there to be more equality when secretly we don't I used
02:00:25
to be one of those people that wanted everything to be equal and now I am one of those people who is very happy in a
02:00:31
world where things are not equal why because I see through the noise I
02:00:38
understand that what we want isn't what we actually say so these politicians
02:00:44
that are saying you know maybe on the left that are saying you know we want equality we want everyone to be
02:00:50
equal you think they're bullshitting absolutely that's not what they want what do they want what they want is more
02:00:55
of the current status quo which is to have conflict with the opposite side and
02:01:02
what they also want on top of that is to be in a position where the masses trust the politician to be in control over
02:01:10
more aspects of the population's life Andrew thank you so much thank you so much I feel so um inspired little bit
02:01:17
excited um and energized by this conversation and I'm I think it's so incredible that you've committed your this sort of
02:01:24
chapter of your life to helping people unlock their full potential by un by
02:01:29
knowing the way that humans work and being able to use the understanding of a
02:01:34
human that was probably getting in their way to free themselves and pursue whatever sort of goal they have in their
02:01:41
lives that they think will provide them with fulfillment because that's really how I see what you're doing you're taking a skill set that's been exclusive
02:01:48
and given to only a few and giving it to many you do that through everyday spy Andrew thank you so much it's been an
02:01:53
absolute honor thanks for having me [Music]
02:02:15
[Music] man