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do you really think I was deliberately partti and breaking the rules but it's all about leading by example ISM sorry
00:00:05
but to say it was a party is a complete travesty seeing that photo when one of my friends can go to their grandmother's
00:00:11
funeral is the most enraging thing I think all Gatherings should have been Bann at number 10 because I think what
00:00:17
do you mean Gatherings Gatherings with alcohol and music and Cake you should never have allowed that to happen I
00:00:24
apologize for that Johnson the former prime minister of the UK whose Reign included brexit Co and the Ukraine war
00:00:31
he's one of the world's most famous politicians on this point of brexit how did David Cameron react when you said
00:00:36
you're going to vote leave he said if you come out and support leave I will you up forever but if you support remain
00:00:43
you can have a top five job in the cabinet but is that not a bit corrupt and is that how the jobs are dished out in the government at the moment look I'm
00:00:49
sad to say that this probably been the way politics has been since the dawn of time and then this letter you wrote
00:00:54
about the decision to leave or stay within the EU which was unpublished you seemed torn so do do you regret brexit
00:01:02
well the next big thing was the pandemic there was a lot of stuff we we didn't know I I think almost certainly was a
00:01:09
lab accident they they were looking at engineering viruses and ways that they could manipulate it sadly something went
00:01:15
wrong when you talk about lockdowns you refer to them as Bonkers which is strange hearing it from the guy that put
00:01:20
the rules in place well did the benefits of lockdown outweigh the very very
00:01:26
severe Damage Done to kids what do you think the answer to that question is honestly I think I just wanted to ask a
00:01:31
few more things Trump or camalo who's the best for international relations how many kids do you have Charlotte Owen you're not related to you and then you
00:01:38
have quite a distinct Persona people describe you as being a buffoon when I first saw you I thought you were a parody from Bose selector is it
00:01:44
calculated well to get people's interest in politics you got a sugar the pill but also your mother said you had certain
00:01:50
mechanisms to cope with pain because your mother is sent to a psychiatric facility when you were 10 I read There
00:01:56
was physical violence in the house and then at 14 your parents get divorced yes we were in Somerset my father told us
00:02:03
and I was look I was cross and said you know so so why did you have us
00:02:08
then you know
00:02:17
[Music] um this has always blown my mind a
00:02:22
little bit 53% of you that listen to the show regularly haven't yet subscribed to the show so could I ask you for a favor
00:02:29
before we start if you like the show and you like what we do here and you want to support us the free simple way that you can do just that is by hitting the
00:02:35
Subscribe button and my commitment to you is if you do that then I'll do everything in my power me and my team to
00:02:40
make sure that this show is better for you every single week we'll listen to your feedback we'll find the guests that
00:02:45
you want me to speak to and we'll continue to do what we do thank you so [Music]
00:02:52
much Boris Ste what do I need to understand
00:02:58
about your earliest years to understand the man that you are today I think
00:03:04
the key thing is
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my wonderful happy very kind of paginating
00:03:17
childhood um in the company of my siblings the key fact was that after a
00:03:25
18 months of existence my sister Rachel was born and ever after it was just a
00:03:32
constant struggle to keep the the pretense of Primacy with my
00:03:40
with my siblings but I think it's it is probably true to say that
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healthy incessant sibling interaction competition whatever
00:03:56
you want to call it rivalry um definitely played a part in my formation and we used to make fun of
00:04:02
it too we used to think it was rather pathetic we all knew that there was a
00:04:07
culture of trying to win so we used to say oh little baby wants to win and so
00:04:14
we were kind of we competed but we also deprecated the the competition at
00:04:22
that age um say before the age of 10 how does that manifest in terms of a feeling
00:04:27
because you can in hindsight say okay I was competitive but how did it feel you know CU you it felt like fun but but
00:04:34
this idea that Rachel came along and then you were vying for attention and competition with her how did how does
00:04:39
that feel when you're under the age of 10 because your your your father at least was very very busy as a man so I'm
00:04:44
presuming he wasn't necessarily so present um I was reading you moved house
00:04:50
32 times in 14 years yeah but that okay I mean he was
00:04:56
um but really I think I you know I speak for all of my siblings now when I say that you really couldn't have had a more
00:05:04
loving caring you know they they both of them I mean you they're both very busy both my mother and father mother was
00:05:11
painter um my father yeah writer did a huge number of things but they did
00:05:17
invest a lot of time in US I mean really a lot it sounded like you had a rough sort of first 10 years of life because
00:05:24
you also had glue ear which is uh which made you deaf a little yes well I don't know I think we need to look very care
00:05:31
the I I definitely had adenoids and I had tonsilitis and I spent a lot of time
00:05:39
in s Barts and had my adenoids out my T and everything like that and I did have
00:05:45
glue here but it but my my my deafness there's no trace of it now
00:05:51
particularly and I kind of wonder whether it was in fact
00:05:56
a a a cunning means to avoid my mother's questions and I I think look I mean I
00:06:03
don't know it may be that I wasn't as deaf as as all that you know what I mean would you ever do that if your mother was asking you something you didn't
00:06:09
actually want to engage and I don't think I'm that coming you what I mean not at8 years
00:06:14
old your mother Charlotte um she had four children you were the oldest of those four
00:06:21
um she seems to be a really important character in your life In fact when I opened up the first couple of pages of the book you you dedicate the book in
00:06:27
memory of of Charlotte your mother I do she was an artist she had many paint
00:06:32
paintings of of of her children but also other things I saw some of those paintings I did some research on those paintings um but one of the sort of
00:06:40
really pivotal moments in her OT bringing is that she suffered from obsessive compulsive disorder she did
00:06:45
yeah you're what 10 years old when your mother is an uh put as an impatient in a
00:06:52
Psy psychiatric hospital and you're apart for eight months something like
00:06:58
that yes what what impact does that have on you in terms of
00:07:03
shaping shaping the Boris that we know today if any I mean I remember it all very very
00:07:10
well and it's hard to say exactly what impact it it had on me but I think
00:07:18
what certainly happened was that all four of us all four of the children that
00:07:24
um that my mother had we definitely
00:07:30
kind of coagulated as a as a group because it was a tough time there were well there were aspects of that were
00:07:37
were tough because you know she she wasn't always there and so I think it did breed a certain kind of group
00:07:46
solidarity and she always kind of blamed
00:07:51
herself for not being there for the8 months whatever period it was and I I
00:07:57
remember feeling very strongly that that was unfair and on and that
00:08:03
she actually you know did an amazing job and you know you couldn't you couldn't
00:08:09
have asked for more did you notice her anything unusual about her behavior before she was yes so the OCD thing is
00:08:15
absolutely right she did have that and you know it was it was very difficult and I'm sure people who are watching
00:08:22
this know exactly what it is but she lots of different patterns of behavior one of
00:08:28
the one of them was was about ESS so so so the so the she she wash her
00:08:35
hands and then um she she would realize in order to turn the tap off she'd have
00:08:41
to touch the the the foret the spiger and and and she didn't want to do that because that would make her hands dirty
00:08:47
again she thought but you know this is a very well-known symptom and she and she totally got over it I she totally got
00:08:54
over it she got through it why was she sent to a psychiatric facility
00:09:02
um well I guess because she's I
00:09:08
think that's a JT good question I don't know really know the answer I think I think
00:09:14
she probably said that she thought she could
00:09:19
benefit from therapy
00:09:25
and that's what she and my father decided to was a best way forward but I
00:09:30
I I honestly don't know the answer to that and who looked after you while she was in that facility at 10 years old
00:09:38
well my father was there and we had uh a wonderful series of opair girls and
00:09:44
nannies and and so on and so forth and at 14 years old they they were all great too but you know I don't I don't you
00:09:50
know I don't want to give the impression which would not be fair that my mother
00:09:55
kind of um was absent for long periods or wasn't a a
00:10:02
presence in our lives because she really was it was more her words I saw her doing an interview where she was talking about um her belief that you had certain
00:10:11
mechanisms to cope with the pain of her going to the facility for eight months but then also the divorce when you were
00:10:16
14 I thought those ages that sort of puberty age where you're figuring
00:10:22
yourself out to get such a jolt of bad news is
00:10:28
yeah I think that's I mean classically yes and look I'm not going to I think
00:10:36
you're on to it you you know there's there's there was an element of of self-defense that then that you know
00:10:43
many kids in in my our position then develop um but I do insist that they
00:10:53
both remained remarkable parents we know it wasn't like we were suddenly cut a drift but by either of them on the
00:10:59
contrary self-defense well yeah I don't know I
00:11:05
mean I'm quoting her on on me by the way so I'm quoting I'm quoting you qu quoting her um you there so you yeah but
00:11:12
I mean you know I don't it didn't it didn't occur to me at the time yeah I don't think it can for a 14-year-old but
00:11:18
in hindsight as an as a man you go okay that was I create a p know but I mean
00:11:23
but maybe I I've got nothing else to compare it to right um you know you're growing
00:11:29
up anyway you're becoming more self-reliant you got to do things to yourself um so I think so go back to
00:11:36
where it was with my my brothers and sisters I think certainly you know it
00:11:42
was another thing that drove us all together why self-defense and how did that self-defense manifest in terms of
00:11:50
behavior I just I'd be the worst type of um what
00:11:57
let me think well how did I how did I how how did my self-defense manifest I suppose I
00:12:05
became yes unquestionably it was painful so how did I protect myself
00:12:11
against that well one obvious thing to
00:12:16
do which I suppose we all do and I think I found the best therapy for every type
00:12:22
of pain emotional pain is to try to Lose Yourself in your
00:12:29
work emotional pain is is about a lot
00:12:35
about it's about self-esteem so so like with when when when parents split up um
00:12:41
you know the shock is well you you can't love us that much but if you're doing
00:12:46
this right that's the that's the what it's all about which is not true of course but that's what the children
00:12:51
that's what children feel they feel it's their failure there's something wrong with
00:12:57
them and that's not true but that's how kids feel I suppose to protect myself
00:13:03
against that like I had a natural Avenue
00:13:08
for to build up my self-esteem and that was academic
00:13:14
work um that kind of thing but again you know another I suppose another type of
00:13:20
of competition and it I'm it is a good therapy work is a work is a is a great
00:13:28
reliever or distraction well depends on your sort of theory of
00:13:34
psychology but um I think it both both why did they divorce do you
00:13:43
know I think formerly speaking what had happened was that um you know my mother
00:13:49
has simply decided she wanted to make another life and and she you know she she found someone wonderful and and all
00:13:56
all the rest of it um but I think that my father um
00:14:06
and and mother the weird thing about their
00:14:12
divorce was that they both continued to be very strongly affectionate towards
00:14:19
each other and you know I'm again I'm not trying to
00:14:24
minimize the psychological importance of any of this stuff for us as as
00:14:32
kids but that was immensely fortifying because it was so obvious that it wasn't
00:14:38
like they were at War I mean you know they had a big bus stops but it was we
00:14:45
felt that there was a real residue of of love and affection between them even if even if it was I
00:14:51
mean I think the way the way we explained it to ourselves was that there was still a residue of love and
00:14:57
affection but that it was just practically impossible for them to to
00:15:02
continue and so that was that was how we rationalized it and um they both found
00:15:07
other people and and and were very happy you you say Bust ups that from
00:15:13
everything that I've read There was physical violence in the household when you were younger yeah well this is this is
00:15:19
something that um has been alleged by uh sadly by one of my biographers um so
00:15:27
sort of pomping to say one of my biographers um some guy wrote a book um
00:15:32
and put that stuff in you know what I can tell you is I have no direct knowledge of of what he said um I don't
00:15:39
want to get into it because I don't want to be disrespectful to my mother's memory and I I certainly don't want to
00:15:47
say anything that would cause pain or embarrassment to my father so but I can
00:15:53
what I can say is I had as a child no direct knowledge of it myself what did um their relationship teach you that
00:16:00
marriage and love was they they they so they met at
00:16:07
University um they clearly loved each other and I think if you ask my siblings
00:16:13
they'll they'll they'll tell you that so that you know it was upsetting when when they split up because do you
00:16:21
remember the day they told you they yeah yeah I do I do I do I do it was it was uh we were we were in we were in
00:16:27
Somerset and my father said that we all had to go and and up by the the the gate
00:16:34
towards the engine shed so he went and stood by the gate towards the engine shed and and we were told this you know
00:16:41
sad news what did he say I don't remember exactly I don't remember exactly but I was look I was cross and
00:16:50
and and said you know so so why did you have us then because I thought well you
00:16:56
know um
00:17:04
as you know I think it is upsetting
00:17:12
and kids do take you know kids take it upon themselves right and so they do
00:17:18
they do think that there must be some fault or mistake in that in themselves and that isn't that isn't
00:17:25
true I mean you know you it's very important for kids not to
00:17:31
blame themselves for for these things and I think that it's you know back to the point I
00:17:36
was making earlier on with you um I
00:17:42
think you know you do need to feed the
00:17:50
the your self-esteem and you need to get yourself back up again and so work was my it was
00:17:59
my way of doing it I I could see the um the emotion in your face when you talk about that moment as if you were
00:18:04
teleported back to that moment for a second yeah yeah I mean it may look I the the
00:18:12
actual the truth is I'm I'm now told in retrospect that that is what I said I don't personally remember it you
00:18:18
remember how it feels yeah but look I mean yes but I really wouldn't want to over egg it
00:18:26
because my parents were incred kind to each other after that you know when you
00:18:33
do this and you throw the the coal in the air I was just stoking the fness of my of my self-esteem yeah yeah you um
00:18:40
you have quite a distinct Persona you're I mean much of where you sort of first came to public knowledge was on the TV
00:18:45
show have I got news for you yeah I know I think the BBC very they live in permanent state of horror about what
00:18:51
they did that because you know I think that's one of the reasons that that they I think they they have a terrible sense of corporate guilt that they Unleashed
00:18:57
this thing is is there a link between your persona comedic kind of you know people often
00:19:04
describe you as being a bit of a buffoon I actually thought you were a this is just being honest because I feel like
00:19:10
it's important to be honest to someone if you've said it behind their back but I when I first saw you on the screen I was a very young man I must have been I
00:19:17
don't know 14 and I thought you were a parody from Bo selector like I thought I
00:19:23
thought you were I thought it was a parody but then I came to learn you know when you did the London May thing ET
00:19:28
that you were a politician and who you were and where you'd come from but the out the out external person is very atypical of a politician right and your
00:19:36
general comedic sense that shows up in the book a lot um you were very comedic
00:19:41
on have I got news how I have I got news for you um is that at all linked when
00:19:47
when did that behavior show up because there was two points of reference that I was mulling one is things your sister
00:19:53
said about where you sort of learned that comedy was a useful device um and the second one is something Jimmy Carr
00:20:00
actually said to me he said to me that um he goes if you ever meet anyone comedic or a comedian don't ask them if
00:20:05
they're depressed ask them which one of their parents they were trying to cheer up or win favor from and I I wondered if
00:20:12
all yeah and I think I don't know I I think that um one of the things I've
00:20:17
tried to do in politics is to get people interested and one of the things I'm
00:20:23
trying to do and Unleashed which is unquestionably a a mixture there's a lot of serious argument in it but also I'm
00:20:31
trying to tell the story in as readable a way as possible and you have to you
00:20:37
have to use you got to Sugar the pill you've got
00:20:42
to so it's like it's like a it's like a packet of uh of digestive biscuits MH um
00:20:47
if you've got to have so each of the chapters uh has a uh some solid you know
00:20:53
wheat germ pabulum but it's covered with some a little layer of chocolate did you
00:20:59
so say you you go down you go down the packet compulsively and each of those 60
00:21:04
chapters I think there are 60 chapters in that book is designed to give you a bit of both so are you the pill that was
00:21:11
sugared you sugared yourself no well I it's well I know there are it's the fact
00:21:17
of the great things that I think that we did we know we took back control of our of our country we we had a we we went
00:21:24
for a type of Independence that people thought was impossible no I'm
00:21:30
spefic complicated arguments about um Middle East about as a as a as a guide
00:21:37
to the last 15 years in in politics I think it's it's pretty useful but I mean
00:21:43
I worked in marketing for about 15 years so I find it quite fascinating that right now in the world it seems that there's a certain type of atypical
00:21:50
personality that's breaking through and being resident is your persona
00:21:56
a carefully constructed marketing strategy or is because someone someone
00:22:03
that knows you referred to as a bit of a loner in private and a quite quiet person yeah no no I I live I so I'm very
00:22:08
I have a wonderful life um I I spend my time I I do a lot of painting um I I do
00:22:17
a lot of reading and writing um I mck around mck around with my kids it
00:22:23
doesn't take much to you know my cup to run over with with with happiness but you know all this stuff
00:22:29
like yeah but I know but that's I've got I've always had a lot of energy but I've
00:22:35
always had a lot you understand that that's part of your persona right well am I supposed to do about that but I'm
00:22:40
trying to understand is it calculated is it something that you've you've thought about and you understand is effective
00:22:46
because they describe you as being one of the best sort of election winners of our of our time I think what people will
00:22:54
I don't know I mean what people will also say is that um
00:22:59
I haven't really changed I mean you know going back to your earlier earlier line of question I
00:23:04
can see where you're going with this you're saying as part of the strategy for defense do we adopt comedic Persona
00:23:11
or or or whatever was um I don't think that was I think it was just with my
00:23:17
brothers and sisters in our family there was a kind of horror of of you know being dull or not saying anything you
00:23:24
know we we had to you know we all had to amuse each each other why
00:23:29
that was really really polite I you know because it was more fun your
00:23:35
brothers and sisters are less amusing than you are I wouldn't say that that's a very controversial thing
00:23:42
to say you would say that I would no I would not say that you would say that who I would say that yeah you think Leo
00:23:49
have you met my brother Leo no I've not met well then you got to get Leo on this show but your sister my brother Joe yes
00:23:55
you met my brother Jo no look honestly there's a serious uh
00:24:01
risk of of uh we had a wonderful childhood because
00:24:06
and they wouldn't deny this because we all you know we had a lot of fun trying
00:24:12
to interest and amuse each other and and and and to your point probably our parents as well CU your sister that's
00:24:19
not to say that we were we were you know we didn't we didn't do kind of shards and and Christmas masks and and plays
00:24:26
and and God knows what jery Corbin said Boris is a calculated intelligent who lives in a Persona which is the
00:24:33
opposite is that TR at all um no I I mean I I think that I I wish
00:24:42
you were true in some ways but I don't I because most of your most you videos
00:24:48
on YouTube are you tackling a small child we thing rugby and by the way by the way he he he would I reckon he could
00:24:54
be much older than he looked you know the guy in Japan the kid you tackled the
00:24:59
kid in Japan the one I accidentally knocked over in Japan they're all comedy videos yeah he he
00:25:04
anyway Eon it's pretty crazy she went to Eaton at 13 years old it's the crazy
00:25:10
thing for me is that approximately 20 of the 57 individuals who have served as prime minister went to Eon which is
00:25:17
roughly 35% of the UK prime ministers were educated at Eaton roughly yeah this for me when I read that I go something's
00:25:23
broken here because for one school to contribute so many of the most powerful people in in the land feels like a
00:25:30
little bit of like someone's got their hands on the scale or there's some kind of that's why you need to read level
00:25:36
read the book because the book contains this is the whole theme of the book right not the whole theme of the book
00:25:42
it's one of the major themes of the book it's about leveling up yeah and if if you remember what I say about I don't
00:25:48
know whether you got through that bit but I so I went there on a scholarship
00:25:53
and it was fantastic I was very lucky I was I was paid for by the by Henry V 6 oh the legacy of Henry V 6 and I
00:26:01
remember feeling this incredible sense
00:26:08
of Amazement that there were kids from some of the
00:26:14
most famous illustrious families in in Britain uh who plainly didn't have you
00:26:22
know much um intellectual interest academic you know Spark
00:26:28
in them and and kidss who'd come from backgrounds all over the
00:26:34
country who were incredible and I and my my insight at school very very very
00:26:39
young was that this there's there's a fundamental problem which is that there is ambition and energy and genius and
00:26:48
talent probably completely evenly distributed throughout the UK population
00:26:54
and opportunity is not yeah I and that is the problem and that is the
00:27:01
basic problem with our country and this country has more potential arguably than
00:27:07
any other major European economy because it's so imbalanced and if you look at
00:27:12
the the propon schools like mine p in London in the Southeast in the UK
00:27:18
economy it's actually unlike France Germany Italy Holland it's also totally
00:27:24
unlike the United States and so I I decided very early on that the
00:27:33
that there was massive massive wasted potential and so one of the so when I
00:27:40
became mayor of London one of my biggest projects was really the biggest thing we did was
00:27:46
really all about trying to lift the the the burrow that people said were were
00:27:51
locked in a permanent cycle of disadvantage and and you know you know
00:27:58
what I mean the inner the inner donut of London hne where you know all that and and it was total rubbish total rubbish
00:28:06
and you you can change people's aspirations but you can then
00:28:11
also change uh the culture of of achievement and and I saw it happen in London and I
00:28:18
was only mayor for eight years but in that period you really did see the city
00:28:23
change in in you know quite a significant way and and I believe very
00:28:30
very strongly that that is fundamentally what needs to happen in the whole of the UK and and I think that this is the job
00:28:38
of politic I don't care whether they're labor or conservative or whoever I think that that is that is what we need to to
00:28:43
be doing and I think there are very simple ingredients that polit there's not there's limits to what politicians
00:28:49
can do but there are some simple things that politicians need to be doing to to make that happen has the conservative
00:28:54
government done well enough at leveling up the the whole of the UK over the last decade uh obviously not because it's not
00:29:03
happening f it is I mean it is happening leveling up is happening but if you look at the but it's nothing like fast enough
00:29:09
yeah and you know so you know AB I was proud of doing things like um rolling out
00:29:18
gigabit Broadband from you know 7 to 70% 69 70% of of households in in 3 years
00:29:24
which is not not bad going I was proud of all the infrastructure stuff we were we were doing I think it's a mistake to
00:29:31
to stop that infrastructure is crucial
00:29:36
[Music] for leveling up transport infrastructure is a great is a great equalizer of
00:29:43
opportunity so things like hs2 Northern Powerhouse rail we should be going on with those in
00:29:49
in my view and um you know whatever my my defects as a politician I think one
00:29:56
thing I was good at was getting a lot of stuff done fast and get and and driving
00:30:01
and driving project projects but the problem is Eaton Eaton was to back to
00:30:07
your question that youthful
00:30:12
experience was I I was also at Primary School in in
00:30:18
London and I really really decided that this was because I think our country has
00:30:25
this problem worse than most other most comparable countries but if you think
00:30:30
how if you think of how strong the UK economy already is then imagine what we could achieve if
00:30:38
we leveled up right do you know this this stat around Eon that 20 out of the 57 individuals who've served as prime
00:30:43
minister came from there isn't that just the clearest example of the fact that it
00:30:48
is yeah the people that are coming into politics but also generally the people that are getting to the top in society
00:30:55
are starting with a unfair advantage to some degree I well I think what it shows is
00:31:04
that I mean you probably point to cultures like France or wherever where
00:31:10
you know the a lot of the the country is run by the um the the people from the
00:31:16
the the Great Schools um but yeah I mean
00:31:22
fundamentally yes that's I think that the so so the great the great choice for
00:31:27
for anybody who's interested in public policy is well okay this is a this is
00:31:32
clearly clearly a problem uh it's clearly wrong uh it's clearly imbalanced
00:31:38
what do you do uh do you set out to launch a kind of cultural assault um
00:31:44
Paul pot Style on the successful institutions or do you say actually what
00:31:51
we're going to do is try to spread opportunity so it's more like America
00:31:57
and and if you look at America you the growth rates are spectacularly outperformed European
00:32:04
growth rates there's a different sense people have a different sense of what they can do and we need to have a we
00:32:11
need to have a a culture in the UK where people don't feel prisoners of their
00:32:17
geography of their background that certainly is the case isn't it at the moment in the UK too much the case I mean it's less it's less than it was I
00:32:24
went undercover I went undercover in a school in Liverpool that was very poorly ranked on the offed rankings and I
00:32:31
remember being in that school and just thinking how on Earth are these kids going to have a chance well they're not
00:32:37
going to have a chance if their teachers tell them that they're never going to get into a Russell group University and they and they well what I observed when
00:32:42
I was there was I observed one teacher running from one classroom to the next classroom this was under Ator government
00:32:49
trying to teach two classes at the same time and I remember sitting down with her cuz I cuz I got like kicked out of school then I was unexposed from school
00:32:55
so I had a bit of my own prejudices about school I thought teachers were the problem and what I came to learn from speaking to the Headmaster of the school
00:33:02
was that this is effectively run like a business and the amount of students that choose that school every year determines
00:33:07
how much money the school is given by the the conservative government and the the amount of the parents choose schools
00:33:12
based on the league table and the league table is determined by grades so really if you think about the the structure
00:33:18
here um the reason why they're driving kids like me to do subjects which I absolutely hated when I was really
00:33:24
interested in business was because if they don't get me to get 12 AED to sees or whatever the nonsense is in certain
00:33:30
subjects less they they rank poorly in the league table less parents choose the school they get less money from the
00:33:36
government and it's this down with spiral and because the school was so so people are people are are naturally skewed to doing subjects that
00:33:42
perhaps no interest of them they had me pushing some plastic baby around the school in Health and Social care when I was running businesses in the school and
00:33:49
I was I was spending so much time in my in exclusion unit because I was falling asleep in classrooms turns out I had
00:33:55
ADHD I wasn't interested in these things but I was obs in these things the system is that is designed to just to just sort
00:34:01
of spread bet you across multiple subjects and you're a failure if you're not good at that but going back to the sort of the E the the um e economics of
00:34:09
the school I watched this teacher run from one classroom to the other teaching two classrooms at the same time and she
00:34:15
told me that because less students had chosen that school this year she was having to pay for the footballs and the
00:34:21
the pencils in her classroom this school I I observed the quality of Education with all due respect they did the best
00:34:27
with with what they had but oh my God it doesn't compare doesn't compare to a lot
00:34:32
of the other schools that I've observed and I thought God these children in this school are starting out life with a
00:34:38
significant disadvantage and much of that is just down to the funding situation they don't have the teachers
00:34:45
the teachers are dropping like flies because they're getting sick because they're understaffed and I just thought
00:34:50
that that's such a if we think about you know what's the furthest Upstream thing we can do to give people a fair Shake in
00:34:57
life so that they can become a prime minister or a CEO or whatever they want to be it starts there it starts with
00:35:03
education and just giving everyone the same sort of quality of opportunity but right now and especially under the the sort of last 10 15 years of
00:35:09
government Cas I think I probably ought to to to try and resist some of that
00:35:15
because um yeah I mean I think teaching is incred I tried to be a teacher myself
00:35:20
it's it's it's unbelievably difficult and and demanding job and I hugely
00:35:26
admire teachers um when I came in in 2019 we put a lot of money into into the education budgets
00:35:33
and um made sure teachers were going to be paid new new teachers are starting
00:35:39
Sal at least 30,000 pounds and uh put a
00:35:45
lot of money into into further education um and actually if you look at that period of con of the conservative
00:35:53
Administration I think most fairm minded people say actually look UK went up the
00:35:58
pza rankings uh for literacy and numeracy most people actually would say
00:36:04
that education was one of the things where things did get better and uh I
00:36:10
think the driving out of the whole Academy program I mean not remotely denying what you say
00:36:17
about um the teacher you you know the teachers you saw being being totally run run
00:36:23
ragged um and you know the they need the maximum possible support
00:36:31
but if you look at the data schools did get appreciably better
00:36:37
in this country during that period now what I wanted to do was really
00:36:43
turbocharge that and give not just school children but also
00:36:50
kids who'd left school at at 16 the types of skills that they were going to need to
00:36:57
compete and to make sure that business felt that they had in the schools in the
00:37:03
Fe colleges in wherever it was they had the talent that they needed to invest in
00:37:08
that area because that's ultimately what it's all about it's about having the
00:37:13
um the confidence that the the state is doing
00:37:19
enough to deliver private sector investment that is that is ultimately
00:37:26
what will transform the the neighborhood and and you get instead of getting the vicious circle of
00:37:32
of decline that you talked about you'll get a you'll get a uh a positive feedback Loot and uh parents want to
00:37:40
move there they want to send their kids to the to to the school the school get a good good reputation and and so things
00:37:46
will things will turn around as they did in London look at London schools um you
00:37:52
know I can't I can't comment on the school you mentioned in Liverpool but London schools really really changed a lot
00:37:57
I think with even with the leveling up thing one of the easiest ways to level up without building the train line would just be to improve the quality of
00:38:04
Education in these and I think if you look at what the conservatives did they really focused on that and they focused
00:38:10
on the curriculum they focused on standards they focused on quality and I
00:38:15
think that was very important because you
00:38:21
know I mean it's Al it's very very important to to to fund schools properly
00:38:26
um but but you know you you shouldn't underestimate what what a great teacher can achieve and the difference that they
00:38:33
can make and you know if if you emphasize quality and you
00:38:39
emphasize attainment and you and you focus on that that's why I'm I know I
00:38:44
think it's I'm slightly worried about what's happening now with with ofstead I mean I I I can understand why people
00:38:50
don't like one word ofstead gradings but parents need to know whether a school is
00:38:57
gonna deliver you went to Oxford University then you had a job as a Management Consultant which lasted only a week I hear yeah I was wasn't really
00:39:04
cut out for Management Consultant you know you then become a journalist um you become a journalist for the next couple of years you then appear on have I got
00:39:11
news for you is it is it now is it now feeded from the memory it's slightly it's slightly fading it's still a great show but it's still slightly fading um
00:39:18
you were then editor he must tell in his lot that it's F and and uh you an empty
00:39:23
at the house of comms um then eventually you for London mayor were you did you
00:39:30
expect to win the London mayor ship I well you see this is the way you I hadn't got the faintest idea I mean
00:39:36
seemed the thing was that I'd actually been quite an admirer of Ken Livingston in in the old days and I thought that he
00:39:42
had some some bold and original ideas for London I I thought he was good on
00:39:47
the environment he was good on air quality he was good on on the I thought there was some some some good things that he that he did um but it was clear
00:39:56
that after 8 years you know you start to get a bit ragged did you did you think you would win I suppose I must have done I suppose
00:40:03
I must have thought it was a good chance it was it was it was a pretty exhausting campaign but if you ask me if I thought
00:40:09
I would win something I can tell you in hset whether I thought I'd win I did soccer Aid last year this year and I can
00:40:14
tell you if I thought I was going to win did you think you were going to win when you ran I thought there was a goodish chance
00:40:22
but it wasn't obvious I mean I I think the bookies didn't really had me as the
00:40:29
as the favorite uh for for a long time I think it then changed I can't remember
00:40:34
exactly but um you know you make your own L right I
00:40:40
mean I had to I had to go in there and make the arguments I me I think one of the things that Ken didn't pay enough attention to was
00:40:47
crime and I thought the was a real issue that needed to be
00:40:54
addressed and that was the the numbers of teenage kids being murdered and we
00:41:00
really really went at that hard and again it was one of those things where when I together with a lot of other
00:41:07
people kit Mouse Deputy Mayor Steven greenhalge uh Paul Stevenson the
00:41:13
commissioner Bernard Hogan how who who followed him we really
00:41:18
really tried to fix knife crime and gang crime I used to literally lie awake at
00:41:24
night worrying about it because it was so on me you know every every single casualty
00:41:31
having to talk to the parents you know the misery the misery of of their suffering we really felt it and we and
00:41:39
it was it was a good example of democracy because we'd pledged to fix it and if we
00:41:46
didn't we had nowhere to go one of the things I'm proud of is we we cut the murder in London during my time by 50%
00:41:53
in 2016 at 52 years old you become co-leader along side Michael go of the campaign to take Britain out of the EU
00:42:00
when I when I look at your Premiership as prime minister of the UK there's three really significant moments isn't
00:42:06
there that typically don't fall all in one person's role as a prime minister you
00:42:12
had the brexit issues you had Co and you had the Ukraine war y um before I before
00:42:18
I talk about those particular issues in hindsight now how do you feel
00:42:24
about the fact that you had to contend with three generational crises and issues but you
00:42:31
know that's the job of being prime minister but most Prime Ministers don't get sure but but you know pandemic
00:42:37
leaving the EU some Prim ministers have had Wars some Prim ministers have had uh
00:42:44
terrible crisis uh Sterling crisis terrible you wish you got a different hand no I I I think actually do you
00:42:51
think you'd still be in politics now and as prime minister if you if you got a different hand no I think there are I
00:42:57
think honestly I think there were other reasons for for for that I mean I'm so I'm I'm proud of of the things that we
00:43:04
did with with the country I think it was very you know people now say um oh
00:43:10
brexit War actually you know one of the points I make in in Unleashed is that if
00:43:16
you look at it the model of national Independence that we got was crucial so
00:43:21
full freedom to do what we wanted in legislation and regulation that was actually crucial when it came to that
00:43:27
pandemic because we were able to vaccinate faster than any other European country a much faster I mean did you
00:43:34
think you were going to win the brexit vote um I honestly when I was outside
00:43:40
London yes when I was inside London no so whenever I traveled around the
00:43:45
country I thought my God people are going to vote then when I got back into the Metropolis um it felt very different so
00:43:52
if you had to put your house on it remain or leave in terms of the probability of the outcome what you your
00:43:58
predicted outcome which one would you have voted on well I the polls were were basically
00:44:05
more for remain than for leave um but I sort of thought that our
00:44:13
voters were more motivated so I hoped that they would come out and I hoped
00:44:20
that they would that was and but he did but on a
00:44:26
scale had foreseen I mean because we had 17.4 million people voted Lee which was the biggest number voted for any
00:44:32
proposition in history and um but you know there were plenty of times when I
00:44:38
you know you could be in a in I was a St
00:44:44
Andrews University in Scotland for my daughter's graduation day and you really
00:44:49
wouldn't have thought that we were going to leave talking to those people there so you know it depended do you know
00:44:55
what's interesting when I was reading your book but also when I was reading some of your previous writings you seemed really conflicted on which way to
00:45:03
go leave or remain right up until you wrote your sort of first announcement piece that you were supporting leave you
00:45:10
seemed to be really really conflicted the the reasons for for for
00:45:17
not leaving were it seemed to me to be more to do with Britain's duty to the rest of
00:45:25
Europe or need to be good partners uh our need not to be
00:45:31
negative uh to be friendly I that that those were the things that worried me people the positive reasons for leaving
00:45:37
people point at this letter which was unpublished you know the letter I'm referring to the unpublished letter you
00:45:42
wrote about the decision to leave or stay within the EU is this no you mean the the article the unpublished article
00:45:48
yeah yeah yeah yeah where you said here some of the the phrases from that piece think of Britain think of the rest of the EU think of of the future think of
00:45:55
the desire of our children and our grandchildren to live and work in other European countries to sell things there
00:46:00
to make friends perhaps to find Partners there I like the sound of freedom I like the sound of restoring democracy but
00:46:05
what are the downsides and here we must be honest there is the worry about Scotland about the possibility that the
00:46:11
English only Lee vote could lead to the breakup of the Union there is the Putin Factor we don't want to do anything to encourage more shirtless swaggering from
00:46:18
the Russian leader not the Middle East not anywhere and then there is the whole geostrategic anxiety Britain is a great
00:46:24
nation a global Force for good it is surely a boon for for the world and for Europe that she should be intimately
00:46:30
engaged in the EU lastly this is a market on our doorstep ready for future exploitation by British firms the
00:46:36
membership fee seems rather small for all that access why are we so determined to turn our back on it shouldn't our
00:46:42
policy be like our policy on cake pro- having it and pro eating it pro Europe and pro rest of the world so when I read
00:46:48
that but then I also I read the um the very Vivid description you gave of that night when you're trying to make your
00:46:54
decision in your book unle and you seemed torn but the guy that
00:47:00
went out and campaigned didn't seem torn there was a there was a real lack of nuance in the campaign but there's such
00:47:06
a a huge amount of nuance in both the moment you were making the decision and the Articles you wrote about that
00:47:12
decision there are arguments both ways and and I I I say it in the in the book
00:47:18
and it's certainly true that as I as I said just now the the case for for stay
00:47:24
is I think one about um not seeming to be hostile not seeming to be detached
00:47:31
but I had to decide because the being in the EU isn't
00:47:37
like just being in a club that where the rules don't change it's it's a project
00:47:43
to create a United States of of Europe with a single currency with a single
00:47:48
Parliament and and and so on and I thought that we weren't ever going
00:47:54
to get the choice again the chance again to have National Democratic Independence
00:47:59
and as I said in so I wrote that article you just quoted was a sort of pasti of a
00:48:05
of a counterargument which I wrote for myself as an exercise after I'd already written
00:48:11
the piece to to come out and I wanted to set them side by
00:48:18
side and and to think the that's nuanced but the campaign wasn't nuanced but if you read the the other article yeah
00:48:26
you'll see the points that I came down in favor of MH and that was about having full marhall
00:48:35
Independence and be able to do things your own way and the trouble with
00:48:40
staying in the EU was it it meant that we were going to become less and less
00:48:47
Democratic and in the end you've got to be able to as a
00:48:54
politician you've got to be able to answer the question question who put you in authority over
00:49:01
me and how can I remove you from office and the problem with the EU is there's
00:49:08
no way they can answer that question because they're not they're not democratically is there not way you can reform the relationship with the EU
00:49:14
while being in the EU you know it's interesting I think I was thinking of a football analogy as you're talking there
00:49:20
and right now Manchester United my team are having a bit of struggle right and um my friends in the group chat are
00:49:25
saying do you think that we should get rid of the manager and I'm saying when you think about making a decision like that you also have to factor in um what
00:49:34
you do after I.E who replaces the manager so many fans would just say sack the manager but then the question
00:49:40
becomes but then what and it was quite clear in your book that although you wanted to leave the EU you had no
00:49:47
idea what the plan would be thereafter and in fact no but no but what we needed
00:49:52
to do is take back control and so that's like fire the manager I'm saying but then what it
00:49:58
wasn't I was just wanting to win an argument with the public about their
00:50:03
democracy and whether they should control it or not and I thought that ultimately we had to do that and and I
00:50:10
think that if you look at so going back to the points that we were talking about earlier to growth rates in America and
00:50:17
and Europe you couldn't say that the the EU model has been economically successful not at all um it's got
00:50:25
chronically bad growth rates um very low Innovation by comparison with the United
00:50:32
States something is is not working so whatever that whatever they're doing in Brussels to provide this this great body
00:50:39
of of Regulation it's not actually delivering results for the people of of Europe and if
00:50:45
you clip when compared to America well so so from 2008 on to 15 take the 15
00:50:52
years 2008 20202 whatever to tr indry um but does
00:50:59
that mean that the EU is doing something wrong or that the Americans are doing something right because when I think of America I think of insane
00:51:07
Innovation a lot a bit of both a lot I mean a lot of both so me the Americans by the way would
00:51:14
never dream of trading away National sovereignty over anything they just don't they never they never they never
00:51:21
in any way NATO is a bit of a act where they've formed complete hegemony in NATO
00:51:28
I mean you know that's but they joined forces to make the some greater than the parts yeah but you know there's no the
00:51:34
the the EU provides a a body of new and a continuously evolving body of new law
00:51:42
which British the British Parliament can't change and so to get back to so why I mean I'm not pretending it wasn't
00:51:49
an e it wasn't a difficult decision it was a difficult decision uh for the you know for the reasons that you that that
00:51:54
we've gone into but I wanted the country our country to be
00:52:02
legislatively free again and and at the heart of the book you know you talk
00:52:07
about the pandemic being the most difficult thing it was very very difficult but and it was very difficult
00:52:13
to persuade the British public to I very find ways of stopping the spread of the disease but one thing we did better than
00:52:20
any other European country was vaccinate and one reason we were able to vaccinate
00:52:25
so fast is because we had regulatory freedom of exactly the kind I mean it
00:52:33
was a complete flute but it turn exactly the kind we'll talk about that that I that I had advocated we'll talk about
00:52:39
that and so and so that for me was absolutely crucial and then we'll talk about that I just want to I need to make
00:52:44
sure I'm clear because if I'm not clear moving forward then my audience aren't going to be clear um this idea of like
00:52:50
Freedom if we take the the analogy of like a of a parachute if I cut the C WS I'm free but
00:52:58
I'm also in danger unless I have a paraglider waiting to catch me and my point here is I understand the head all
00:53:04
the like the big emotional words that freedom Take Back Control Etc it sounds compelling to me but as I said with the
00:53:10
football analogy what's the plan thereafter and I think I I actually don't want I don't about cutting you
00:53:17
talking about the parachute right and cutting the cords of the of the parachute um actually it was the other
00:53:24
way around it was because we'd come out of the EU that we were able to equip
00:53:30
ourselves with a parachute faster than anybody else and uh we were able to to
00:53:35
get out of the Burning Plane uh faster and to get to ground safely faster
00:53:42
because we' taken back control of our of our regulatory freedom and that meant
00:53:48
that by March 2021 we' vaccinated 45% of the adult population and of the older
00:53:55
people I think we done almost 80 over the over 80 we done almost 100% and that was incredible if you remember we had we
00:54:01
had we'll talk about the vaccines in early in those early day but the two things are connected those early days we had thousands you know up to a thousand
00:54:08
people dying every day and so it was incredibly important just we were able
00:54:15
to give elderly and vulnerable people in the UK a protection from in a on this
00:54:21
point of brexit though in your book you say you almost sort of connect yourself
00:54:27
from the fact that you there had to be a plan associated with the decision because you seem almost angry that
00:54:33
people would expect you to have the plan even though you led the campaign yeah so
00:54:38
I mean I'm trying to make the connection between brexit and the real world and why brexit delivers value was there a
00:54:44
plan for leaving so so but on the in 2016 and I think what you're really saying is what was our plan for the
00:54:53
um the referendum outcome so me everybody who campaigned to to leave
00:54:58
were we expecting to win uh were we expecting to form the next government let me quote your book this is good for promotion for your book so you're like
00:55:03
this never at any point in that campaign did we Boris and Michael gave discuss a
00:55:09
future leave based government because we did not imagine that there would be would have we would have to be in charge
00:55:15
of government the government stated policy was to implement the referendum result it was a result it was a
00:55:21
referendum not an election we had no plans for government no plans for negotiations because it was not our
00:55:28
job and in so far as the next few days were chaotic which they were it is
00:55:33
utterly infuriating that we should be blamed it was up to the government to announce the plan to withdraw it was up
00:55:38
to the government to begin negotiations so this is I mean this is this is a huge issue because if in the context of
00:55:45
business because when because when because why because because because I think there a fundamental misconception when you when when when a government
00:55:51
decides to put something to the people in a referendum the government is not saying
00:55:57
um oh you know if if it goes against our you know the any particular position
00:56:03
we'll we'll disappear but the government they wanted to remain in France uh for instance uh uh uh France miton had
00:56:11
referendum on I I can't remember I think it was the master treaty um or was one
00:56:17
of the treaties that he he lost the vote um and he didn't resign he didn't disappear plenty of European uh leaders
00:56:25
have had referendums on E on on on the EU and and they've gone against them but
00:56:32
they haven't vanished from the scene and so you know let put this the other way
00:56:38
around imagine imagine that go and I or the whole of the leave team had been
00:56:44
specifically campaigning to in the leave vote to form the next government and to
00:56:51
install ourselves as the rulers of the country people would have said this is
00:56:56
not about um this you're plainly you you're talking all your arguments
00:57:03
designed to advance your political careers you're not you're not talking about the issue of leave or remain you're talking about a plan to take over
00:57:09
the government I and so totally I'm not politici I'm just I'm just a member of public I'm just trying to I'm trying to
00:57:14
explain why that that was not possible I get it but as a member of the public I think if you're leading the charge for
00:57:20
an outcome you must have looked a couple of steps further to think about the implications and the real ity of this
00:57:28
outcome like you must have had okay do it like this we I assume that the government would have bring would have a
00:57:34
white paper that said that brought they they were going to bring forward the
00:57:39
options for the country and a plan to negotiate and a plan and a plan to would to do what they said they were going to
00:57:45
do but the government including your friend David Cameron said this is a really bad idea he so one would one
00:57:51
would take from that that the plan is not a good one that they've looked at all the available options post leaving
00:57:57
and there's no good options here so if the people in charge were saying we should not leave there is no good
00:58:03
plan shouldn't we have listened to them well no because I think they were wrong as a member of public is I see two
00:58:10
like two people stood at a cliff Edge and you got one guy called David one guy called Boris and David has said listen
00:58:16
I'm taking you to the cliff Edge because it's your right to to make this decision but do not jump and this other guy
00:58:23
called Boris is going jump I would assume that Boris knows something about how we survive once we start falling but
00:58:30
to find out that Boris had no plan and thought David was going to pull out the parachute for me is like well David D
00:58:37
the problem the problem was that I I then we then had to we then found ourselves because David prime minister
00:58:43
Cameron then disappeared from the scene
00:58:48
immediately as I as I described in the book we then we then had a a chaotic period where we had to work out what the
00:58:54
hell we were going to do because it was clear that we were going to somebody was going
00:59:00
to have to take over and and lead us through it did David Cameron react badly
00:59:05
when you told him when he thought that you might be voting to leave because you talk about in the book he yes I did he
00:59:12
but I mean but I describe it um in the in the book he he said he said
00:59:19
um he said I well I said look I I was really
00:59:24
struggling with this because I didn't see how I consistently cuz he'd offered me he said if you come out and support
00:59:30
rain you can have a top five job in the cabinet I couldn't work out what a top five job was and then he and then he
00:59:36
said um and then I he I said well look I was Finding very because I've written
00:59:41
lots and lots of Articles the pointing out the the Democratic problems of the of the EU and you know finally we had a
00:59:48
chance to to resolve this and I was thinking of of coming out for leave and I you know didn't know how to put it to
00:59:54
him that was the the truth and he he said this isn't about articles this is about the future of the country I said
00:59:59
well I agreed about the future of the country but I was still thinking canot believe and he said well if you if you
01:00:05
if you come out believe he said I will and I you know apologize for he same he
01:00:10
said I will I will [ __ ] you up forever and which I thought was quite a big big you know sort of promise to me
01:00:16
he said he was going to [ __ ] you up forever forever and so I immediately um went back home after I went back home
01:00:23
after that evening and uh and cycled back from my office in in in City Hall
01:00:30
and talked to my my family my kids and one of my kids uh said immediately well you know he got no choice and you'll
01:00:36
have to come out for leave so um I mean I put that in to to I put all
01:00:42
that in really to just to show you that um there were very good Arguments
01:00:50
for having a quiet life do you know what's interesting in that is I when I read that part in your book The was two
01:00:56
things that I thought the first was him offering you a top five job if you followed his opinion is that not briary
01:01:04
and is that how the jobs are dished out in the government at the moment if if you if you do what I say I'll give you a top like if you do what I say I'll make
01:01:12
you health secretary or defense secretary seems like but it seems like from as a someone who's not in
01:01:17
government it seems like a really corrupt way to dish out jobs like if you if you go with me it wasn't clear it
01:01:22
wasn't clear you've got to be fair to Dave it wasn't clear what job he was offering but top five is what defense secretary Health
01:01:29
secretary you know PMS were top five jobs so there's what really four remaining it's probably you thought in the book you talk about potentially
01:01:35
defense secretary I don't know but yes but yeah I mean look but but is that not a bit corrupt is that not like the
01:01:40
definition of corruption because if I was it to my employ my own view about all I think it's a it's a huge mistake
01:01:46
to do that kind of thing because there are always far more people that you know
01:01:53
you end up you know thinking that you should be making a promise to then there are jobs you can possibly
01:01:59
give so the best thing in those circumstan is to say nothing I I've I've always wondered this about government and I've never understood it is how does
01:02:06
someone become the head of a department when they have no prior experience in it
01:02:11
like you made Matt hanock Health secretary how did how did Margaret thater become Prime Minister or
01:02:18
secretary for Education when she had no previous previous experience how did Tony Blair become Prime Minister when no the Prime Minister thing I understand
01:02:24
how but how did how did T become you know a shadow Minister when he had no
01:02:30
experience you tell me do you think this is a good system well so this is a really really important point because I
01:02:37
think that there is a um I
01:02:43
I I do worry that it's quite hard to persuade you know really good
01:02:49
administrative types to go into to politics and you know you see it the the
01:02:55
whole time it's called Dar CEO right and you see it the whole time you see loads
01:03:02
and loads of um I plenty of examples of top business people who tried to get who
01:03:09
tried to become politicians and it just doesn't seem to work and I I don't know
01:03:15
I mean can I can I have a guess go on well if I look at the data I go if 35%
01:03:21
of them come from one school eaten and then there's jobs being dished out based on if you take my opinion I'll give you
01:03:27
a top five job I go I understand why I could never get in even if I was the best candidate because it's not being
01:03:32
done based on who's the best candidate it's being done based on like the old boys club but I'll do you a favor I'll
01:03:38
if you well not not under not under the labor party presumably uh or you know or or any other party not not not not under
01:03:43
the I mean most most conservative cabinets so just under the T party no I I think under under any party I think I
01:03:49
think that business people do for reasons I find hard to put my f
01:03:56
on they don't necessarily flourish in in that environment and who flourishes what
01:04:02
I what I worry about is that the only people who are already going to start doing it are people who are willing to
01:04:09
go through a lot of um you know public attack I think social pass well I
01:04:17
mean well the fact so look one of the interesting things that's happened recently is that social media has become
01:04:24
very very virulent and um I I don't read it myself
01:04:31
but I think it it becomes very oppressive for politicians and also for
01:04:36
journalists and I think journalists [Music]
01:04:42
um you know they get a lot of shellacking and a lot of abuse if they're not thought to be taking one
01:04:49
line or or the other or you know going easy on someone um I mean somebody who's
01:04:55
going to interview me for this this book um yeah you look at and she's a very
01:05:02
very good journalist but you look at the stuff that she gets online um about you
01:05:09
know you know her being an Inquisitor of mine or whatever it's appalling it's
01:05:14
really appalling and I think so I think that and I think that it's also the same
01:05:19
for MPS I think that they get very um they think they think if it's a
01:05:26
choice between having a life where I can you know avoid this sort of stuff
01:05:32
and you know having a wonderful existence doing something else or or putting myself through this on the point
01:05:39
of that I said think thinking that it's related to the fact that people have got their hands on the scales they're pulling their friends up it's a bit of a
01:05:44
boys club is there any truth in that I think but I think I look I'm sad to say Steve I think that this probably been
01:05:50
the way politics has been since the dawn of time I think that politicians I think politics has tended to be um
01:05:58
factional uh since the dawn of time I think it's tended to be just sad but I
01:06:04
think true um the the good thing is that in the end the people who are
01:06:10
really successful are the people who get things done that the people want
01:06:16
done do you think it's say magnet and so and so and so so so it's a it's
01:06:22
a it's a magnet for very determined characters who are willing to put
01:06:27
themselves through a lot soop get things well well I
01:06:32
mean um have I used those words before no no but that's the kind of person you're making me sounds like you're
01:06:38
quoting me about maybe you but yeah but the kind of person that I think would be
01:06:46
compelled and succeed in such an environment um I think I think you have to have a pretty
01:06:53
thick skin okay but the but because of the because of the way it
01:06:58
works the people who actually succeed are the people who really can drive
01:07:05
something forward and and deliver it closing off on brexit um 62% of British people view brexit as more of a failure
01:07:12
according to yugov and 9% consider it more of a success um according to yugov as well 46% of British people say they
01:07:19
should there should be a second e referendum in 10 years compared to just 36% that say it shouldn't be
01:07:26
and according to let me just finish the stats you can respond um according to the UK's Real gross added value the gva
01:07:32
a measure of the size of the economy um they say there's approximately 140 billion Less in 2023 in the UK economy
01:07:39
compared to if the UK had stayed in the single EU Market according to the same thing they say that 300 billion has been
01:07:46
wiped off the value of the UK's economy um by 2035 and my last stat here is a report
01:07:53
from the center of European reform in 2023 estimates the UK GDP was 5.5%
01:07:59
smaller by mid 2023 compared to a scenario where the UK had remained in the EU this equates to an economic loss
01:08:06
of about 40 billion annually and just as a business owner myself I was looking at some stats around what business owners
01:08:12
think about 33% of small businesses reported that brexit has made it harder for them to trade with the EU due to
01:08:17
increased paperwork and things like this and the London School of Economics said that brex added 6% to food prices
01:08:23
between 2020 and 2023 with all of this in mind do you regret
01:08:28
brexit not at all not at all I mean honestly uh so we've outgrown Germany uh
01:08:37
France since 2016 onwards uh sorry certainly out grown Italy uh since 2016
01:08:43
onwards last time I looked Germany and Italy were both members of the of the EU
01:08:49
and when you the statistics that you give I mean they are dwarfed for instance by
01:08:55
covid um you know even if I even if you accept that um which I don't necessarily
01:09:03
uh that uh brexit has caused uh problems it's also caused massive opportunities
01:09:10
because we because we were able to come out of the lockdown earlier than any other country remember we we came out of
01:09:17
lockdown in July 2021 we ended we ended all restrictions
01:09:26
and that meant that we had the fastest economic rebound of any G7 country and
01:09:34
that would not have happened in my view without the assistance of brexit
01:09:39
freedoms do you know the O ecd do you know what that body is yes yes they say the UK is the only major Rich economy
01:09:46
that remains smaller poorer than prior to the pandemic and brexit may be a factor in that in the government's
01:09:52
independent Watchdog which I know you know the office for Budget responsibility thinks the UK will ultimately be 4% worse off than it would
01:09:58
have been had it not voted for brexit when I you know in business everything is a trade-off everything is a trade-off
01:10:05
so you must be able to identify the tradeoff that the UK has made for all of
01:10:11
the upsides that you claim brexit is delivered so I think it's intellectually honest of anyone to be able to identify
01:10:18
both sides of the argument here so what is the trade-off what has brexit cost us just it cost what it cost us yeah I
01:10:25
think I think that that it's certainly true that um the the way that some of it
01:10:31
is being managed by some of our by our European friends is unnecessarily
01:10:37
bureaucratic at the moment I think that will get better I I I I I accept that
01:10:42
criticism I don't think it's the end of the the end of the world but I do think ultimately the advantage of being free
01:10:50
to do your own thing free to run your own country to control your own tradeoff
01:10:56
no I have I impact for us in but for me as an average citizen what's the what's
01:11:02
the what's the trade downside yeah well I think you know you I it's certainly true that some some businesses are
01:11:08
finding it harder to there is paperwork that I don't think there needs to be and we need to fix
01:11:15
that but I think that the te we have technological solutions to that I don't
01:11:20
think that we need to be part of a European Empire of law get and ever
01:11:25
denser and more detailed Empire of law controlling our freedom and stopping us
01:11:31
is there an economic trade-off I I don't think I think that ultimately we will be richer as a result
01:11:38
in the near ter we're going to be poorer well I you know again people were very emotional about this and look can I just
01:11:44
remind you when before the referendum people said that and no one ever holds
01:11:50
these people to account people said that there would be Millions more unemployed right do you remember that people said
01:11:55
there would have to be an emergency tax raising budget if the people voted to leave the EU actually uh when I cease to
01:12:03
be prime minister unemployment was at a 50-year low and we had 620,000 more
01:12:10
people in paid employment than before pandemic began point about the
01:12:15
economic I'm just saying that people people make all sorts of prognostications about brexit the stats
01:12:21
that I read you do you believe them that there's an economic struggle in the short people said that we would be we would
01:12:28
have a million people on the do Que because of brexit okay fine but do you believe that there's a in the near town they're now saying because they're now
01:12:35
it's it's confirmation bias right people but you said we will be richer eventually so I'm saying I hope that we
01:12:42
will if if we do the right thing sure so in the near term do you think there's a little bit of struggle to get through economically as a result of brexit I
01:12:49
think the I think that will that's certainly the case if we make the mistake of of staying I mean which is
01:12:57
what K star and the labor parties you know want to do is staying
01:13:02
in align alignment with the the EU they they basically want to be us to be rules takers okay I think that's a huge huge
01:13:09
mistake we should go for freedom I don't know how to say this you in a way that you're going to understand but perfect T is banging I'm an investor
01:13:17
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01:13:56
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01:14:03
going to leave that up for some time not forever that's perfect ted.com and then use code diary 40 at checkout when you
01:14:08
try it make sure you tag me on Instagram and and say Steve you were right it's banging the next big thing was the
01:14:15
pandemic this was once you'd become the prime minister of the United Kingdom um
01:14:22
and you have this pandemic begin to roll in I was looking at your the the way you described that situation in late 2019
01:14:30
early 2020 in your book and it appears that you had no idea of the severity of
01:14:37
this virus that was rolling into the shores when was the first time you heard that there was a virus that had come in from China whatever the date was I think
01:14:45
it was either end of uh 2019 beginning of 2020 I I can't
01:14:51
remember exactly when but there's there's a day when uh when I'm walking through the lobby of the House of
01:14:56
Commons with the health secretary and he says you know there's I'm worried about this um this Chinese virus was that
01:15:03
hanock the right person to be handling that because that is a generational once in a lifetime health issue yeah and in I
01:15:11
look I think I think he did a very good job yes I think he was he was very energetic was he the best person to be handling it I think it I think he I
01:15:19
think he did a very good job and I think that was he the best person to be handling it
01:15:26
look in hindsight well I I certainly think that he well yes because I think yes I think
01:15:33
that he had the right mixture of energy and and
01:15:40
realism um don't forget we didn't know about the the disease we didn't know how
01:15:48
lethal it was we didn't know how contagious it was and we didn't know how
01:15:54
exactly how it was transmitted there was a lot of stuff we we didn't know some quotes from your book here you said the
01:16:00
problem wasn't that I was ignorant to zuntic diseases the problem was that I felt I knew all about
01:16:06
them um after more than 30 years of writing about or dealing with new zootic
01:16:12
zootic yeah diseases I felt I knew my SARS and my Ebola so to speak and I concluded two things first that these
01:16:19
novel zuntic plagues tend to sort themselves out and second that the greater risk of destruction from from
01:16:26
these from attempts to stop them by politicians um was there sort of attempts to contain the diseases that
01:16:32
the prevention would probably be worse than the cause in some
01:16:38
respects so when hanock started talking about a new Corona virus possibly from bats and the risk that it would sweep
01:16:44
the country it was hardly surprising that I felt I'd heard this all
01:16:51
before little did we know yes I I mean so I think that's I
01:16:56
that's I'm I'm being very honest there about about um as I am throughout Unleashed about the my state of mind
01:17:04
because you know i' I'd covered in great detail um the
01:17:10
uh salmon and eggs Panic uh when millions of chickens were slaughtered uh
01:17:17
needlessly i' covered the uh the bines punch for men off the Panic mad car
01:17:22
disease when uh vast portion of the UK dairy uh cattle herd was slaughtered
01:17:28
probably uh needlessly um the livelihoods of farmers were destroyed um I'd been mayor of
01:17:35
London when we we were threatened with the uh with a bird flu um so didn't was
01:17:42
a big deal and we we' laid on stocks of Tamiflu which turned out not to be to be
01:17:47
necessary uh so I've seen SARS come and go uh Ebola and so on and in each of
01:17:56
these cases what what what seemed to have happened was that there had been a rational anxiety about the risk of a
01:18:06
xonotic disease um often from Asia or
01:18:12
wherever um we would get in a real we' do our best to get ready and then
01:18:18
it mysteriously leave us almost completely unaffected I remember the swine flu is that what you thought was
01:18:24
happen in this case and I didn't know course I didn't know but I was what I was trying to do was to give you context
01:18:32
the context and the state of mind that I think a lot of people were in when they they heard about about Co when
01:18:41
did you call China February had it February 2020 there was a call you made to the leader of China to Xin ping yeah
01:18:48
yeah I mean I would have called him I mean it'll be in the it'll be in it'll be in the book and you were sending supplies yeah that stage we were we were
01:18:55
still sending um supplies to help them there we were we were sending prote what did
01:19:00
he say about the virus well I said
01:19:08
um I look my remember the conversation is hazy now I I I think I you know
01:19:15
um congratulated him on what seemed to be his efforts to control the disease
01:19:20
but said I was I was anxious about the what was happening in these wet markets
01:19:25
because at that stage we were given to understand that these the disease had had
01:19:30
occurred um spontaneously in a in a market in Wuhan what did he say and I
01:19:37
can't remember what he said to to that um I don't think I he look I mean he's a
01:19:43
he a president of China I don't think he wanted to particularly the implication that China was in any way at at fault
01:19:50
and I can take understand that but I now think that wasn't right I know I think
01:19:55
it almost certainly was a um a lab accident or it was as a result of
01:20:01
something that went wrong in that lab can I ask about this because this started as a conspiracy theory that is now widely accepted as the probable
01:20:09
likely outcome why were they messing around with a virus in a lab in Wuhan well you may well ask I mean I think it
01:20:16
I think they were why do you think they were someone that is so far away from why people do these s such a thing I I I
01:20:22
genuinely don't know but I think that they were they were exp you know science the
01:20:29
the point of science is to keep pushing back the frontiers of human knowledge everywhere and to see what you see what
01:20:34
they could do you think it was a weapon I don't I didn't have any reason to think so I didn't have any reason to
01:20:40
think so I think it was a terrible accident I think the thing um escaped from the lab I think you know they they
01:20:46
were uh looking at engineering these viruses a function gain of the of the um
01:20:54
of the virus and and ways that they could manipulate it and um sadly
01:21:00
something went wrong um that's that's my best guess and a lot of people now seem to think that you called Trump around
01:21:06
this time as well to speak to him about it I did yes what did he think um well I
01:21:13
yeah I mean he took the the firm view that you know China had a case to answer
01:21:19
but so did a lot of people and in the book you talk about the World Health organization's response being seen seemingly hesitant because they are
01:21:26
wanted to keep Beijing in favor yes I think a lot of scientists
01:21:32
were anxious about cheesing off the the Chinese and I
01:21:37
think a lot of scientists you know because China is very heavily involved in the support and sponsorship for of a
01:21:43
lot of um academic research and and so on so there was a sort of hesitant I
01:21:48
felt I me I might have been wrong about this my impression was there was a sort of um gingerness about seeming to fing
01:21:55
of the Chinese too much on lockdowns um it's interesting that I was reading in your book that around the 8th of March
01:22:02
you start to see what's going on in Italy and I think we can all vividly remember those scenes from those Italian hospitals where there was patients in
01:22:09
the chors being pushed around on trol trollies and there was not enough beds and I think for me as well that was one
01:22:14
of the big moments where I realized watching it actually play out on Twitter that this was an incredibly serious
01:22:21
situation something that I'd never seen in my lifetime before um was that the the penny drop moment
01:22:27
for you that this wasn't just another bird flu or I was very anxious about it because I knew the Italian Health Care
01:22:33
system I thought it was broadly excellent and I remember when you know one of our one of our kids had a uh fell
01:22:40
into a swim pool in in in Italy once you know when everybody was having a lion you know most shattering thing that you
01:22:48
know could never happened to you and the Italian Prontos Coro came and they were
01:22:53
unbelievably good they were so fast they were they they were so and I thought you know if the Italians are having problems
01:23:00
with this thing and you know frankly our population is about as elderly as theirs
01:23:05
then this could be very very serious so I think that I think I think that did really register with me and so if you
01:23:11
look at the and obvious I defer completely to the inquiry into into all
01:23:16
this under Dame Heather Howard but if you look at what happened from then on in you see a series through through
01:23:22
March up till the 23rd of March you see a series of intensifying steps to try to
01:23:28
get people to take precautions what I what I observed I saw that in the book and you kind of have the stages that you
01:23:34
break down um that you went through from that moment onwards what I observed though and I think this is probably a
01:23:40
fair estimation or a fair description of what happened was there was
01:23:47
indecision because it seemed like there was facts coming from one ear facts coming from the other ear and there was
01:23:53
almost a bit of paral is and when you look at the rest of the European numbers which I was looking through um yesterday
01:23:59
about when different sort of European markets made that decision the UK appears to make the decision to lock
01:24:05
down much slower than all the other European nations um slower to close the
01:24:10
schools the shops and events seem to be later than our European counterparts and
01:24:16
Matt hanock went on to say that they were ahead of us in the in the in the epicur anyway MH uh so so so they they
01:24:24
so you mentioned the Italian situation yeah and they they were already ahead of
01:24:30
us and you know we could see that we were going to have to bring in measures
01:24:37
but you know again this will be for the inquiry to to comment upon but it's it's
01:24:43
it's pretty clear to me that we we couldn't reasonably have instituted these measures in the UK
01:24:51
which would novel and draconian um in advance of the scientific advice
01:24:56
or opinion and and that's what and that's what it would have been them being ahead of us isn't relevant because
01:25:01
the chart I have here shows how many days it took us to take decisive action
01:25:07
after the third death and it shows that for all of the European nations and when I was reading about the information you
01:25:13
were getting from scientists on this end and from other people in politics it was so contradictory that I
01:25:22
think I was guessing that that's what caused the decision and also your own sort of philosophy towards shutting down
01:25:27
soci we had this group called the scientific Advisory Group on emergencies right the sage and they they were so we
01:25:36
were going to be led by the science and we basically had to I decided that
01:25:44
we had to follow what Sage advised and for a long
01:25:50
time to a point they hesitated about schools because of all the dis benefits
01:25:58
and if you remember the argument was that if you went too early then there
01:26:04
was a a risk that you'd have to keep doing it uh because you you know the public would lose patience with with the
01:26:13
lockdown and there was there there was a second argument which was there would
01:26:18
then be bounced back if you if if you went too early uh and you kept on for twoo you'd then
01:26:24
take the measures off and the virus would would flare up again and which indeed did happen um throughout the
01:26:32
course of the of the pandemic so there were the scientific
01:26:38
advice was I mean it wasn't I wouldn't say it was particularly confused at that stage
01:26:45
I think it was they were struggling to assess exactly what to to do and there
01:26:50
were different views within the scientists about certain things like
01:26:56
Matt hanock said that we could have saved 30,000 lines like um masks and so on is that true Matt Han you know
01:27:03
I if we if we' lock down earlier I I I can't say that for sure uh I I I've no
01:27:09
no way of knowing that um but what I what I can say is that
01:27:17
the to have locked down earlier would have been to have um
01:27:25
gone beyond to have anticipated scientific advice it would not have been some and I'm you know I'm
01:27:32
not a epidemiologist I'm I'm not a scientist uh I was being asked to you
01:27:37
know the what was on the agenda was imprisoning the whole UK population um it wasn't something the
01:27:43
scientists were yet recommending in the book you seem to question whether those lockdowns really even worked so I'm not
01:27:50
saying that what I'm saying so dep what you mean by work I think that they
01:27:56
certainly did have a role
01:28:04
in stopping spread of the disease and they helped probably to turn down the
01:28:11
the curve of the of the disease probably I you know almost certainly what I find very difficult to gauge now and you know
01:28:19
again this is for for heet is to what extent was it the
01:28:25
lockdowns what did it and to what extent was this going to happen naturally a
01:28:31
result of the the natural Parabola and you suspect it was going to happen anyway I'm not what I what I'm saying is
01:28:37
that to some extent it to some extent or to a large extent it was perhaps going to happen anyway perhaps and
01:28:45
given that it was perhaps it was to a large exent perhaps going to happen anyway the question
01:28:52
is did the benefit benefits of lockdown outweigh the very very severe Damage
01:29:00
Done to kids life chances at school which talked about earlier what do you think the answer to that question is I
01:29:06
think that we did the right thing you think we did the right thing I think we did the right thing but I but I'm I'm conscious that there are lots of people
01:29:13
who who disagree and what I hope is that the covid inquiry will will say that yes
01:29:19
we did do the right thing in your book when you talk about those those measures um you refer to them as Bon
01:29:25
the the sort of different areas yeah I think that's that's bit that's later that's by the that's when we got to the tearing system the tearing system you
01:29:31
talked B Bonkers and you seem surprised that people would follow this stuff and
01:29:36
that they wanted to follow this stuff which is strange hearing it from the guy that put the rules in place you
01:29:42
think it's the tearing system was Bonkers and you surprised talk about the hindsight right yeah yeah so at the time
01:29:48
at the time it seemed so we had a situation so coming out of the first
01:29:55
um the first um lockdown so in in the summer of
01:30:00
of 2020 and and going into the into the Autumn and things start to get more
01:30:06
difficult again we have a situation where in some parts of the country in I don't know places uh like leester or
01:30:14
West Midlands or or wherever uh Northwest um you have the tears you've
01:30:21
got a problem which is that some areas haven't really seen a you know the co
01:30:26
really go down anything like as much as it went down say West country Cornwall
01:30:32
was that a bad idea in say and so you had uh people saying you know why the
01:30:37
hell should pu be closing cornall yeah when there's no Co and just because
01:30:43
there there's Transmission in in in bolon or wherever so is that a bad idea in hindsight well no it was a good idea
01:30:49
in principle because because because after all um it was it it was crazy it
01:30:55
seemed but the problem the problem was that it was very very difficult to draw the boundaries and as soon as you as
01:31:01
soon as you said you know well this bit of Lester's in uh tier which whatever or
01:31:07
or yeah it was it was impossible went crazy because it was very invidious and
01:31:12
it see and on on a human level when you're leading the country during a pandemic and you've got you're getting
01:31:18
these numbers every day that people are dying and that people are sick and then you know I know you got sick yourself
01:31:24
what is there a mental toll on you throughout that period Well I think it
01:31:30
was so as you discover it Unleashed I like it when I can go forward and when I
01:31:36
have things positive projects to do so it was very very difficult when I was constantly having to shut the country
01:31:44
down constantly trying to stop the transmission of the Disease by these very very crude methods but once
01:31:55
in by end of 2020 we had the prospect of a vaccination then my mood totally
01:32:01
changed because because then I had something my question was about you as a human being when you're dealing with
01:32:07
tragic news and this escalating pandemic what what's the human toll if i' had
01:32:13
been a fly on the wall in your hardest moments throughout that pandemic what would I have seen well I think that I think it was certainly pretty tough I I
01:32:19
had a bad bout of covid what was the hardest day outside of the getting the illness yourself what was the hardest
01:32:24
day for you throughout that period I think
01:32:30
that ah boy I think it was there was a lot of tough times but I think having
01:32:37
to having to go probably the to go back into lockdown in in in the end of 2020
01:32:44
was pretty pretty awful because the CL you we'd really really hope that tearing
01:32:49
would work and you know some people still think it could have worked um but it just W you know we we couldn't
01:32:57
I couldn't take the risk the quote from your book that I pulled out which really shocked me was the real question I
01:33:02
suppose is why on Earth the public so avidly craved these rules and why they were so willing to have their doings
01:33:08
circumscribed in such a rabinal detail in their complexity they were also like
01:33:15
a kind of religion detailed rituals you just obeyed L Leviticus like in the hope of Salvation because science was slow to
01:33:22
help us on the 13th of September 2021 your mother Charlotte passes away while
01:33:29
at the same time you're dealing with all of this Fallout and the recovery from the
01:33:36
pandemic that's a tough moment yeah but that's the same for any person in any um
01:33:42
in any Walk of Life you know that's always a a very very tough moment um I
01:33:48
think that um you know to to your to your point
01:33:54
about the the people why why do people obey the rules so much and and my my feelings about that I think no I'm
01:34:01
asking about your mother here so your mother passed away in September 2021 and you you don't touch on it so
01:34:07
heavily in the book the circumstances of that but that must be a particularly tough moment for a person that's dealing
01:34:12
with all of these other social issues and political issues at the same time yes I know but I mean I think I
01:34:19
suppose the point I make there is that is our our common human law lot isn't it
01:34:24
and yes it it was tough for me and my my brothers and
01:34:30
sisters of my family um very very very tough you know we miss
01:34:36
her to this day uh all of us but you know um a lot of people were suffering a
01:34:43
lot throughout that pandemic and a lot of people lost loved ones
01:34:50
and you know I had to be I had to be very very mindful of of what was happening every day in in
01:34:57
households across the country and and I had to try to and I had a desperately difficult because one of the interesting
01:35:02
things about being prime minister is is the way it works now is how much of it
01:35:08
is just funneled upwards and you know there's you have to
01:35:13
take those decisions there's nobody else who can do it for you would you remember where you were when you found out that Charlotte was had passed away got I
01:35:23
think it was in I was driving driving to London I I'd been I'd been out on a visit and was it
01:35:29
unexpected well I mean you know um she'd had she'd been out for a long
01:35:35
time with um with Parkinson's and she had various complications associated with
01:35:43
Parkinson's um and she'd had a bad scare about a year previously so no I couldn't say it
01:35:50
was you know um medically I could not say it was medically totally
01:35:56
unexpected no did you have a chance to grieve her passing I certainly did grief her
01:36:03
passing um but
01:36:09
um if if you mean did I sort of process it mourn it I you know to I
01:36:17
to the best of my ability yes are you good are you a natural at that sort of thing that sort of
01:36:24
emotional I guess connection with
01:36:32
yourself God um I think probably go back to some of
01:36:38
the earlier things we were we were saying I mean I did grieve and you know I do miss her like all my brothers and
01:36:44
sisters I do I do miss her today but you know um I also had a huge amount to to
01:36:51
think about and to get done and and we just have to you know we had to
01:36:56
do it many members of the UK population were also mourning and grieving at the
01:37:02
same time and I think that's why the the party gate scenario which you talk about in the book was so enraging for many
01:37:09
people because as someone who again is not very close to politics like myself it's Optics here you know and I think
01:37:17
that's really the issue when you've got people who are unable to see their their loved ones because of the situation with funerals and the pandemic even the
01:37:26
suggestion that there was a rave going on in number 10 is the most enraging
01:37:31
thing that I think anyone could say but there wasn't a rave going on I mean you'll find it all that you'll find all Unleashed and there and I feel desperate
01:37:37
about it and I really do and I and I understand you know completely why people got so enraged I really do
01:37:42
understand that and I did my I did my best to to try and you know I think I mishandled the whole thing the the the
01:37:50
revelations as such as they were uh but also reality but you know because at the end
01:37:57
of the book you do seem to to highlight that you could have done things to well what I could have done was what I could
01:38:03
have done I think so I I wonder why I commissioned Sue gray uh to conduct an
01:38:10
investigation into it I mean I I was informed that she was the you know
01:38:15
politically impartial and a model of sort of you know obsessed with with Proby and and neither of those things
01:38:22
now seem to me to true I've got a picture here um there
01:38:27
was 17 parties that were alleged during the the the sort of party gate time
01:38:33
frame and one of the pictures that leaked to the public was this picture of you enjoying some cheese and some wine I
01:38:39
believe um at 10 Downing Street now as again a member of the public I look at this I look at some of these key dates I
01:38:45
know you were fined for one particular date which was your birthday I think where you were raising the glass of wine with some colleagues no I wasn't you see
01:38:52
again you see people say this kind of thing and it was it the AIDS leaving drink that you were
01:38:58
fined for no I wasn't fined for that what were you find for I was fined for my for going into stand at my desk in
01:39:06
the cabinet room uh between meetings with a glass of wine no not with a glass of wine um and
01:39:14
several members of staff were also there but there were people I saw throughout the working day anyway but this picture
01:39:22
and just just cuz people think that I had a cake and that we we didn't have a
01:39:27
I didn't have a cake I I I didn't even see a cake um to say it was a party is a complete
01:39:36
travesty it was about the most lugubrious event in the it was it
01:39:42
consisted of people who were part of my normal working life that that picture that you you're pointing to
01:39:50
there was this the the Metropolitan Police did at that but they decided there was no offense committed because
01:39:55
what you've got is people sitting outside as as people tried to do during those times because there was much less
01:40:03
risk of infection just let me just read some of the stuff so 15th of May 2020
01:40:08
cheese and wine um at Downing Street approximately 349 people had died from Co that Day in the UK Mr Johnson was
01:40:15
photographed sitting with his wife Carrie and some staff at a table with wine and cheese in the number 10 Garden
01:40:20
at this time Co restrictions so that people could not reasonable excuse let me just read this and then I'll but we we were I was that
01:40:26
that's my that is my home that's the garden I was supposed to be May 20th um
01:40:32
there was a bring your own booze party on the same day that 38 people died from the from the pandemic and you attended
01:40:38
for about 30 minutes you say it was 25 minutes and then the 19th of June was your your birthday sorry okay can I just
01:40:45
go back over there I mean you know none of this watches with the public because they all think that we were you know having dancing around and and getting
01:40:52
drunk 12th of April Johnson announces that he has been f50s by the police do you know
01:40:58
what it is though it like it's all about it's all it's all
01:41:03
about leading by example isn't it and you know this yeah I think my opinion is that whatever
01:41:11
is going on at number 10 needs to be the extreme demonstration of the perfect example the extreme demonstration
01:41:18
because you of course you're going to be attacked you know that yeah of course if you sneeze you'll be attacked and I say
01:41:23
that in that's what I'm saying so so what we should have done and and I I say is we should have I should have said to
01:41:31
everybody look people are going to say you know matter because it was in fact as I tried to explain impossible to
01:41:38
maintain perfect social distancing uh in the the office environment that we were
01:41:43
in um people were working around the clock um
01:41:50
and I I think that um I should have said something to the staff like people are
01:41:56
going to be out to get us for God's sake you know not only obey the rules but be seen
01:42:02
to obey the rules now we had you know all the signs in the corridors and and and stuff like
01:42:08
that I think that there were a lot of people by that stage who were perhaps
01:42:13
not altogether friendly to me uh who wanted to you know that's that's fine that's fine but honestly I I can't help
01:42:20
but believe cuz I try and remain pretty impartial in these things so I try to apply common sense as like a business person but do you really think I was
01:42:26
deliberately partying and breaking the rules for me do you really think that for me seeing that photo when one of my
01:42:32
friends can go to their grandmother's funeral and seeing that there's people drinking and have appearing to have a
01:42:37
whale of a time just in this photo but also the other photos where you're cheersing with wine I go you should never have allowed that to happen do you
01:42:45
know and I think you agree with me agree with me because you said at the end of the book you said I should have said to
01:42:51
to my whole team don't even let them appear to be breaking the rules in
01:42:56
in in in the course of almost two
01:43:02
years of people working around the clock in number 10 in conditions of great
01:43:08
proximity to each other um there were going to be moments when
01:43:14
of course when colleagues are saying are going away when you raise a glass to them unless you're going to ban that I
01:43:20
think you should have well that's a point of view because I just think alcohol in 1940 we would we would have
01:43:25
won the second world war I think Prime I think prime minister during a pandemic I think you just have to be the most extreme
01:43:31
example we we got a ban on alcohol in this country no I think I think I think genuinely s if we if we if we banned
01:43:38
alcohol in number 10 in 1940 M I think all Gatherings should have been banned at number 10 because I think sorry but
01:43:44
we were gather we that means Banning meetings so what do you mean Gatherings Gatherings with alcohol and music and
01:43:51
cake I think have been B I've tried to explain to you there was no cake or I saw no cake I I was at no event where
01:43:59
there was there was music or dancing that total nonsense now maybe those
01:44:04
things took place but they certainly didn't Place take place when I was there I think one of the problem one of the
01:44:09
mistakes I made was beginning the whole thing by issuing this General apology
01:44:17
and so what happened was so that people think that there was um
01:44:23
there was do you still apologize I don't apologize for allegations of vomiting or fist fights because they turned out what
01:44:30
you apologize for and well I in so far as people broke the rules on my watch and far as I'm responsible of course I
01:44:36
apologize for that but what I was what I'm what I'm saying in Unleashed is that
01:44:42
um the problem with leading with a blanket apology was that it then meant
01:44:48
that absolutely any allegation that was you you know you've said you've just said made a couple of your so um you
01:44:54
know any allegation that was then made about and in Sue Gray's initial report
01:44:59
that she had to to change it she said there were uh there was a you know
01:45:05
violent altercation and and vomiting and somebody V but they that both of those things turned out not to be true you
01:45:10
said you made the mistake in the in your book you say you made the mistake of issuing pathetic and groveling apologies over the Scandal which made it look as
01:45:17
though we were far more culpable than we were which is just the point I've just made because I think because because it it looked as though
01:45:24
but by issuing a sort of universal apology it meant that any
01:45:32
subsequent um allegation people assume well that must be what happened and you and you to be
01:45:38
fair to I I I kind of get the feeling that's what you think
01:45:44
and that was largely my fault because I seem to be intently validating the apology is is
01:45:51
is not I seem to be validating everything that people said about what
01:45:57
was going on and what was actually going on was that people were working unbelievably hard around the clock to
01:46:04
get a lot of very difficult things done I and and and actually what the the
01:46:10
things that they were successful in are very creditable and I and
01:46:16
so I feel badly about them on page 75 of your book you say in retrospect I should
01:46:22
have done more to protect myself and the rest of white hle against party type allegations I should have said to the entire staff perhaps in a letter about
01:46:28
the vital importance of not only obeying the rules but also to be seen to be obeying them and reminding um and I
01:46:35
think that that is actually my point which is apologies I think are good things I think people should apologize no but you I'm trying to explain if if
01:46:42
you apologize in advance for the the problem was that a lot of things were said about staff in number 10 that
01:46:49
weren't true and weren't fair to them and my blanket looked as though I was validating and
01:46:57
accepting all those criticisms okay which which I think was not in retrospect I think I should have waited
01:47:03
to see exactly what people you know said and I what was established to be true
01:47:10
and then I should have apologized for what what actually happened you see what I'm saying and and also I want to stick
01:47:16
up again for those officials yeah uh who were working around the clock to sort
01:47:22
out the government's and the country's response to covid and when it came to it did an absolutely outstanding job and I
01:47:29
I don't want I don't I know you've been you've been very patient with me you you know you
01:47:34
you've you've allowed me to talk for almost two and a half hours and of what I thought was going to be an hour's show
01:47:40
so I'm you've been heroic in putting up with we're wrapping up now but I just wanted wanted to ask a few more things these are personal questions that I have
01:47:46
so um um one of the things that no one knows about you is how many kids you have why is this such a
01:47:53
widely debated subject I've never sat with a guest on my show where I don't know why widely debated it's a matter of
01:47:59
a matter of I have eight children it's eight matter matter of public record okay I don't know why people why is everyone so obsessed with with a of kids
01:48:05
you have search me go Charlotte Owen you're not related to her are you no she's not a former lover no okay I asked
01:48:12
my friends some of the things they want to she so she's but it's in the book read read all about it in the book she is a she is a very capable adviser and
01:48:20
what happens next for Boris Johnson are you going back into I live a life of blameless rustic obscurity you want to get back into
01:48:26
politics I I think that um I stay in unleashed the chance of the frisbe
01:48:32
dec I saying Unleashed you you should only do things if you genuinely think you can be useful at the moment I think
01:48:38
the most I'm loving I do a lot of painting I'm having a great time living in uh you know in the countryside um I I
01:48:46
got my hands folding all sorts of things and and next question quick fire yeah Trump or camalo and you can't sit on the
01:48:52
phone all British prime ministers including ex- Prime Ministers yeah are
01:48:58
constitutionally obliged to be friendly with whoever who's the best for international relations whoever whoever
01:49:04
the um the American people decide that is that is the right thing and you are
01:49:09
dwindling audience would not expect who who's better for stopping the wars a
01:49:14
who's better for stopping the wars I mean you know if you read Unleashed I did read it okay and I saw your interview on GB news and you seem to
01:49:21
think that Trump would be a better well I think what I'm saying is that you should be aware of some of the kind of
01:49:28
anti-trump prejudice about his handling of foreign policy and there are very good re you know there very when he was
01:49:36
president he took some tough decisions and and you know projected in a sense of
01:49:43
American strength and purpose and that's you know but I make no no further comment than that and we have a closing
01:49:48
tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're going to leave it for right okay and the question
01:49:54
that's been left for you is Success often comes at a price and one of those
01:50:00
is the relationships we lose along the way which relationship or person did you lose in the pursuit of your
01:50:07
success um you seem to one of the longer you
01:50:15
live the the the more you you know you can have what seems to be a complete
01:50:21
terrible Sun and then Le and behold things cheer up
01:50:26
and andn your your your friends again and um
01:50:33
so I mean look at look at look at Michael go you got to answer the question which relationship will pass
01:50:39
the answer the answer your question is I don't I don't I don't regard any of the termination any any rupture I don't
01:50:46
regard any rupture as fin no one's ever swered this question so you're not going to be the first I didn't regard any rupture as final which relationship or
01:50:51
person did you lose in the pursuit of your success they are not lost I didn't I I don't give me a person give me a
01:50:57
name we've never had a this is a long-standing tradition no one's ever swerve this question I had a clearly I
01:51:02
had a rupture with Michael Gove but then um in 2016 but then with um heroic
01:51:10
optimism I I I put him back in the in the cabinet and and you know there you
01:51:17
go Baris thank you thank you for your time and I'm going to link this book below so any
01:51:23
uned can can get the book it'll be linked below um it was your your your writing style is exceptionally engaging
01:51:30
I think everyone that's interviewed you from the ITV to GB news has said the same thing um the book is linked below
01:51:36
if you're interested in the subject matters we've talked about but many more it's an exceptionally long book some
01:51:42
700 I don't know I got it wrong I think it's it's over 7 771 pages2 pages with
01:51:48
the with the index and the and the and the thanks and Incredibly detailed um book into all of the key issues that
01:51:54
have happened over the last five six seven years and some touches of of what
01:51:59
happened in your life before link down below Boris Johnson Unleashed thank you so much Boris thank
01:52:05
you very much Steve it's been an honor I I think do I get a prize for I think that must be that was a that how long was that interview supposed to be
01:52:11
because I don't know they're always two usually they're four sometimes they're four hours I
01:52:18
see isn't this cool every single conversation I have here on the Diary of a CEO at the very end of it you'll know
01:52:25
I asked the guest to leave a question in the Diary of a CEO and what we've done
01:52:31
is we've turned every single question written in the Diary of a CEO into these conversation cards that you can play at
01:52:39
home so you've got every guest we've ever had their question and on the back
01:52:44
of it if you scan that QR code you get to watch the person who answered that
01:52:50
question we're finally revealing all of the questions and the people that
01:52:56
answered the question the brand new version 2 updated conversation cards are
01:53:01
out right now at Theon conversation cards.com they've sold out twice instantaneously so if you are interested
01:53:07
in getting hold of some limited edition conversation cards I really really recommend acting quickly
01:53:15
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