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imposter syndrome how does one move past it ah sit back
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zadi she is an expert in Breaking Bad Habits and beating addiction Women's Health Magazine has called her Britain's
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answer to Bruno Brown and she's also an author including the number one bestseller the kindness method I am
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determined to have binge eating and powerlessness and lack of trust that people have as a direct result of weight
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loss diets to die with my generation why I started dieting from a really really
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young age and I was using food as a drug when I got to my heaviest I was like that's it I'm done how have you 126
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kilos and it eventually culminated in secretly getting a gastric band fitted I started working in addiction treatment
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and I started realizing that I was going about this the wrong way I wasn't meant to be making my body smaller I was meant
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to understand why I didn't like myself enough to take the same advice I'd give someone else when someone you love is
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struggling to get back on track you don't pretend that what they're trying to do is simple and you don't tell them to throw in the towel and that's where
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people feel super disempowered because they're not taking the advice they'd give another person
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I think people feel patronized because what they needed was understanding why if I have all this information and I
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want to do this I'm not doing it and what I always tell them is if you were to try and identify why some
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people are unsuccessful in their change what are like the overarching themes one
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of them is [Music]
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sure can you um tell me what your sort of academic professional buyer might say
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yeah I did a undergrad in psychosocial Sciences in Norwich and then a postgrad in
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psychology and then I went on to work for the NHS I didn't one year placement as an
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assistant psychologist in substance misuse in Northwest London and then during that time I was trained
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in all sorts of different evidence-based approaches that are used to help people to change really
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ingrained behaviors around mainly around opiate and alcohol addiction now what about your um your personal
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context so take me below the age of you know I'm a big believer on this show that that origin story and our
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childhoods really shape who we become um tell me about that
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well um I was born here I was born in North London and my parents
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um are from Iran and they came after the revolution or during the revolution and my first language is Farsi so I
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learned how to speak English and then I moved uh to the states my dad's work for a little bit and ended up
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coming back and during that time I started to struggle I started to
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struggle with um trauma responses to things and I started stammering to the extent that I found it
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really hard to speak at all at school and then we came back to the UK and
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I started going to school here and I didn't have a great time I was uh really overweight kids weren't super nice to me
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about it and I started dieting from a really really young age because of course it was like that's what doctors are recommending at
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the time and I started to have a really mean relationship with myself
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everything from the way I spoke to myself to what I thought I deserved to how unboundary I was like behaviors of
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like low really really low self-esteem to the
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extent where I had a lot of really shameful behaviors a lot of codependency a lot of anxiety controlling stuff I just didn't have the
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best time at school to be honest and I didn't like myself at all like really didn't and now that I work with
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people who don't like themselves I could say with confidence that sadly I was on the more extreme end of things and
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I developed what I now realized was a binge eating disorder and where I was eating myself I was
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using food as a drug essentially I didn't know that at the time and I was eating and eating loads and
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then it eventually culminated in me kind of secretly getting a gastric band fitted
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which gave me all sorts of other issues lying to people lying to my friends about it feeling ashamed like it was a
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easy way out and then I had to have it removed by emergency surgery and it was
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terrifying and when I think now about the lengths that I went to
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and weirdly the fact that I never thought to change my relationship with food I always just thought if I was smaller
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the world was telling me if you're smaller everything everything will sort itself out
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um so that was the angle I was going in for plus I I seem to think that getting
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smaller would teach me how to change behaviors which kind of does a disservice to the whole science of Behavioral change anyway
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and then I went to work in addiction treatment uh long story short when I you
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know I did my went to UNI made the same friends I have now and
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I started uh I started working in addiction treatment and I started realizing that I was going about this
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the wrong way I was going about this completely the wrong way I wasn't meant to be making my body smaller I was meant to understand
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why I didn't like myself enough to take the same advice I'd give someone else I didn't like myself enough to think I
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was worthy of liking food I didn't trust what I didn't trust myself I felt powerless like these were
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the fundamental things I should have been dealing with so I went to therapy and
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I started getting on board with the fact that I didn't need fixing and then my habits started changing really really
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quickly and I was like wow you said a second ago you had to figure
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out why you didn't like yourself why didn't you like yourself did you ever figure that out yeah yeah
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well using the tools that I hand over to people now you know it isn't it isn't a plug that was the whole thing the reason
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I personally uh didn't learn to like myself
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and this will be different for each person but I my value was wrapped up in how I looked big time and my size
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so if the scales weren't making me happy then I wasn't having a good day and as a result I wasn't treating myself
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well in ways that may seem unrelated to other people but I got into my head that unless you
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look like this you don't deserve it's almost silly for you to do the
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things that people who like themselves do acts of self-care
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even taking pride in my appearance all kindness was conditional
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on me looking a certain way why like where had that come from well
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all sorts we can start with the fact that I was you know if your kid in the 90s if your kids being bullied for being
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fat then you go to the GP they were going to put you on a diet they were going to put the kid on a diet so we're the best of intentions that was
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happening second of all I think the generation particularly of women before me
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weight loss that I think weight loss dieting has got a lot to answer for um in that sense the you know the this
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is your goal weight and this is how you'll look and then reward yourself for the new wardrobe because then you'll deserve it women who carry water bottles
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are slim and like all that [ __ ] so it was a time you know that's what was going on it
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isn't just that it was my own stuff and I should have done more to not that you're saying that but I think sometimes
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people will say like what was it deeper than that and I just think women especially at that time like that's all
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you got that's all you were shown anyway successful women women who made money women who got you know who were in
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relationships with people of value or whatever else it was they were shown to you as a particular type of woman and I
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never looked like that um so I just never saw that I just never
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thought people like me did stuff like that and then the worst bit was some of it
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would have been really useful to me frankly you know like I'm not going to exercise until I'm thin I'm not going to
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drink water I'm not going to take care of myself I'm not going to engage in the habits that would actually make it easier for me so I speak to people now
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who are the same who are like they've sort of learned to put kindness towards themselves they made it
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conditional on achieving a goal they're making it harder to get there because the goal will be achieved more
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quickly if you take your life off hold and I learned this I write I I write about this in the first book
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I went to counseling and I was really really low this was maybe in 20
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you know 10 or something like that really low and my North Star my whole life had been
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like one day you'll be Slimmer and you'll be someone who does exercise and you'll be someone who you know stands up
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straight and does their hair and all that stuff and then you can do all the stuff
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you can start enjoying the stuff because at this point I was so wrapped up and not like myself that I wasn't even listening to like a piece of music that
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I liked because I'd be like no no hold on wait my day is coming or even if I caught myself having a nice
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time like on holiday or something I'd look down and think oh I'd catch a glimpse of myself and think well no
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actually you'd be having a much better time if you'd actually sorted this out and
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what I didn't realize is that none of those things had anything to do with how I looked I just picked up this idea along the way
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that I didn't deserve those things because I didn't see people who look like me
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taking care of being allowed to take care of themselves and being allowed to feel sexy and being allowed to feel all the stuff I just didn't see it
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and so then I had a session with my therapist and she said something that she was like what if you never change and I was
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so angry I can't begin to tell you and I'm not a particularly angry person but I was really angry with her
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because I thought well if I don't change then I never start living I never stop being nice to myself that's what that day never comes so I
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came out I started thinking about it sort of entertained it long story short
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spent a couple of weeks acting like if I don't change I'm never going to change
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I just started doing the stuff that I was putting on hold and then everything changed
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what changed well what I needed to address was things like boundaries
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things like uh binge eating having no impulse
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control putting a space between Trigger and response this is what was holding me back from the results I wanted both mentally and physically right
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so what needed to change is that I needed to do the sorts of things and engage in the sorts of habits that enabled me to put that friction in place
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to put a space between trigger and response and it turns out if you start from a place of feeling like
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[ __ ] and depriving yourself of all the stuff that makes you feel calm and positive it's considerably harder to
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impose that space and to calmly decide which version of yourself you want to behave from so as such I was depriving myself of an
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of a real asset that could have helped me to do things in a row until they get easier which ultimately is what I see
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all behavioral changes you know I can see great books on behavioral change in the background there
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um we're all trying to make people do things in a row until they're easier my way about it is just saying that if
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you're nicer to yourself and you have the same conversation with yourself in that space and you do the things that
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make that space calm and positive and feel mature in the way of self-care and
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self-soothing and self-compassion and affirmation then you can take it Choice by choice in
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the direction of it becoming easier until you really do update the fact this this idea this assumption that you can't
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do it and this leads on to the kindness method which was the first first book you wrote
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um very much inspired by your own experience with weight loss and struggles there
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you work with people that want to change you know many of them I'm sure are successful in
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that change some of them are unsuccessful in that change if you were to try and identify why some
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people are unsuccessful in their change what are like the overarching themes
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ah sit back so I've got one of them is focusing on the outcome thinking that
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your long-term desired outcome is going to be compelling enough on the spot
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to get you where you want to be so you start from a place of desperation this is it this has got to change I want
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this I want the health I want the outcome I want the progression and then you forget that that isn't that
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isn't going to be enough your motivation will waver your plans will not go to plan and you're going to need to have a
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conversation with yourself when your plans don't go to plan that talks you into take making a decision you'll be proud you made the next day so I think
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one people wildly underestimate how much it's about zooming in and getting
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involved in and excited about demonstrating Your Capacity in a row as opposed to hoping that remedying some
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negatives long term will be exciting enough to keep you on track long enough to make that habit automatic the other
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thing that people do wrong I think is focus on what's wrong with them as opposed to their assets
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and they and they don't have that locked and loaded for that moment where they doubt themselves they want to throw in
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the towel and think I can't do this they need to be ready to have to really
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debate with that with genuine evidence to the contrary in the spirit of wanting to update it
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more generally not just in the context of that habit taking life off hold so all those things
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I said now everything you're going to reward yourself with really look at it and ask yourself if I started doing it now would it put me in a better position
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to do difficult things which is ultimately what behavioral change is simple but not easy
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the other thing people do is they um what else oh yeah of course I mean
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you've had gobble mate on here that um they focus on what's wrong with the behavior that they're engaging in as
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opposed to how it's serving them they look at it as a problem as opposed to a solution and not only
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does that take away the component of compassion and understanding that's required when they're stuck thinking why
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am I finding this so hard I have no willpower I must be stupid or whatever it is is it also deprives you of
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understanding whether there's a problem that still needs solving when you take that away and with compassion
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and sometimes people find themselves filling that Gap with another solution
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um as opposed to doing it in a way that says you know what this behavior is doing a job for me so if I'm not
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changing something's going on and that needs some Curious compassionate inquiry
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that definitely I think the other thing is that um
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this whole tough love the way you speak to yourself thing
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people people think that like tough love when
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you're speaking to yourself often isn't very smart love so if
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let's say for example you came to me and you're like true I'm trying to stay on track with this plan and I've just
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fallen off track and I'm and my task was to get you back on track believing in yourself as
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quickly as possible and equipping you to carry on ultimately
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making myself redundant to you I wouldn't say to you
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come on you shouldn't be finding this so hard this should be easier it's just like your teacher told you when you were
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little you're just the sort of person who starts things and doesn't finish them and then you should start on Monday
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you know that's smart it's not smart and that's where people feel super disempowered because they're not taking
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the advice they'd give another person that's the important bit here that's the self-esteem bit we don't have a problem
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in knowing how to change habits and people don't have a problem in knowing what habits they want to change and how
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they would benefit them and now thanks to many of the books behind you we don't have a problem understanding exactly how
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habit change works I think people feel patronized because what they needed was understanding why if I have all this
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information and I'm smart and I want to do this I'm not doing it and instead of beating themselves up about it
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to delve into the story how did I come to be this way with compassion how cool is it that this
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isn't my fault but I've decided to make it my responsibility how can I use behavioral change as a trojan horse
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and the discomfort I have to sit in that's unavoidable short term
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urges cravings to listen in on the way that I speak to myself and work out whether these
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predictable alerts from my body are turning into commands that I'm obeying I just think these are check-ins we
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should do and I wanted to give people something so that they didn't feel like they had to wait till things got really bad
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and also so it was a private process that's what the kindness method became it's basically everything useful I wish
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I'd had everything useful I saw in addiction and then when I went on to train addiction staff which was my next
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job after that and working in criminal justice just everything useful I saw with the most
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challenging resistant client myself included bear in mind I start using this stuff and like iterating use
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it on myself using it in different ways and I put it in the book step by step
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just in case there were people like me who wanted to change habits on their own terms
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kind of checking with the program that they're running where'd it come from who's it from do I wanna
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switch up do you want to update it some of it fake news I think habit change is a great trojan
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horse for listening in on the way you speak to yourself and debating with it until
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it's updated and I'm really surprised that we don't do that in life
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if I've got a really stubborn story that I tell myself really stubborn you know something traumatic that happened to me
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under the age of I know 10 and has created a story a narrative in my mind that is just you know
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has control of the wheel is driving my life my decisions and is driving the self-talk in my head that's utterly
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negative um you must encounter people who have that that just can't shake it
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is that possible that there are some things that we just can't that just have too much power over us they've changed the circuitry in our
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brain to an extent that you know we can't change I don't think people like me
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should say yes or no to things when they don't know who they're talking to with the size of the platform that you have
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to be honest with you of course there are traumas that I can't speak to of course I mean I've worked in
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addiction with young people in addiction I wouldn't have the audacity to sit here and say yeah just and that's that's
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actually what really pisses me off my Instagram sometimes I'll see I'll see something and I'll be like oh just replace the negative thought with a
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positive one it's like oh wow are you a wizard you should be on the news
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and but I think one thing I will say is I have been really pleasantly surprised
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by what happens when you appeal to people's need for evidence disprove
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it the stuff we tell ourselves a lot of the time it's not true or it hasn't been true for a long time
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that's compelling people think they can disprove it by looking in the mirror and saying that's not true I love you and
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you're amazing and you're fantastic you're going to be so successful does that work helps does it some people
00:19:24
yeah affirmations help yeah of course I think with all this stuff it's got to be a combination of things I think people
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just have to have have to be given the permission to not be judged to strip this harmless stuff down you know and do
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it in a combination of ways that makes them feel good you want to do a couple of affirmations for a while fine when you go off it you want to do something
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else whatever fine I just feel like we have to hold it lightly and stop calling it remedial
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you're just checking in with yourself um but no I think listen I was I was a
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pretty extreme case and for me it was a case of saying right which when you write down it's one of the
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exercises in the first in both books actually when you start writing down like one of the things I say to myself when I
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fall off track a lot of people realize that they don't even use that vocabulary in their
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day-to-day life that's not theirs and that makes it compelling to change it too
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what is it that people tend to say when they fall off what did you say when you fell off me oh all of it like of course
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I'm not going to be able to do it I'm weak willed some people can do it that was just that was a fluke anyway that I
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had a bit of a streak uh people like me don't get things like that
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um mainly I'm weak I'm stupid I must hate myself because bear in mind all these people are giving you these like legit reasons
00:20:42
why you should do other stuff and you're going the other way and telling you that you're harming yourself and you know that you are you know I'm powerless I'm
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weak I can't trust myself all of it and then thinking up like Extreme Ways to sort it out they do that because they
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love you though right like that's the paradoxes they're doing that to try and help you they're saying you're doing something wrong you know you're no well
00:21:02
no actually if you think about it like when you tell someone you when someone you love is struggling to get back on
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track you don't pretend that what they're trying to do is simple
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and you don't tell them to throw in the towel you remind them of their capacity to do something difficult you remind
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them of the times they've done difficult things in the past and you support them plus you give them perspective this is
00:21:27
what I mean about the smart thinking too you don't go oh well you've that one blip that's you just God gotta just
00:21:32
spiral this is a terrible catastrophe you say we'll just get back on track and you know back in the day like the first
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thousand times I had this conversation about self-talk I used to always use the example in groups
00:21:43
and stuff like um think of someone you love write down what you say to someone you
00:21:48
love write their name in the middle of the page if they'd fallen off track and you were tasked with getting them on
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back on track and through the discomfort involved in achieving the most meaningful long-term
00:22:00
goals so their behaviors and the values are aligning and people would write like you can do
00:22:05
this you're amazing what can I do for you it's just a blip you can learn from it think of all the other amazing things
00:22:11
you've done and then I would get them to cross their that person's name out and write their
00:22:16
own name in in the spirit of starting to say look this is by your own admission these are the things that you would tell someone you love
00:22:21
then over time I realized if I give someone a hundred grand to motivate someone who's fallen off track
00:22:28
they're not gonna say oh it's because you're weak and you're rubbish just like
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your teachers told you there's no point starting until Monday you might as well you know destruct this
00:22:40
whole thing for now you might as well throw the whole plan out just because of one tiny blip because
00:22:46
you weren't perfect it's not just kind it's just not good advice
00:22:52
um yeah I'm just not here for the tough love there's this word we use a lot in
00:22:57
society at the moment which is imposter syndrome it's really an interesting concept I mean the word itself the phrase itself
00:23:03
is kind of loaded with a series of assumptions um that I don't think are necessarily helpful but
00:23:09
you must in your practice deal with a lot of people that are showing signs
00:23:16
of what we know as imposter syndrome what's your what's your take on it and really like how does one how does one
00:23:22
move past it well this is a very new this is a hot take because it's through an observation the way that I come up
00:23:29
with things is I spend as many hours as I can speaking to people human beings
00:23:34
one after the other as many human beings as I can in different contexts and seeing how they are using these tools
00:23:41
and what's working for them and what isn't and for imposter syndrome
00:23:46
essentially not not being able to internalize
00:23:52
your accomplishments feeling like a fraud which I've had um
00:23:58
managing my binge eating and my anxiety differently helped me
00:24:05
change my imposter syndrome for the better and I'm seeing why that is now
00:24:10
I've just started work well now that I'm so passionate about binge eating as a result of weight loss diets being a
00:24:16
thing that goes with my generation um what I've noticed is that when people
00:24:22
give themselves permission to find whatever they find difficult difficult whatever it is even if it's subjectively
00:24:30
far more simple than all the things they're managing to do every day something extraordinary happens
00:24:37
and that tends to have a really extraordinary impact because usually
00:24:43
with the people I work with because I'm talking about like booze and other drugs and food and stuff
00:24:49
this little shame and guilt associated with it so that extra bit we all we all find it difficult to acknowledge you
00:24:54
know a lot of us find it difficult to say I was great at this and that's the end of the sentence without any caveats or and it could have been
00:25:02
when it comes to acknowledging our say our professional accomplishments or academic accomplishments the people I
00:25:09
work with a lot of the time feel so ashamed and guilty about this thing that that still eludes them
00:25:16
that's that's the bit they'll be like yeah I got a pay rise but I still haven't sorted
00:25:22
is watching and I might fall down it doesn't let them really
00:25:27
really internalize and process their capacity because well for example I
00:25:34
have written two books that's cool they've done well
00:25:39
um writing books was not hard for me doing this this is way this is a you
00:25:45
know being able to not stammer while I speak to you because I had the confidence to sit and breathe before I
00:25:51
came in here rather than look at notes or only Ben Jesus will understand this but
00:25:57
being able to start a binge and then bring it back as opposed to just starve myself for weeks or whatever I was doing before is
00:26:04
a power and a trust in myself and an ability to close the gap between what I
00:26:09
why what I would tell other people to do and what I do and a sense of integrity
00:26:14
when no one's watching that seeps into every area of my life
00:26:21
but the trick was to allow myself to find something incredibly difficult that
00:26:26
other people thought was a no-brainer and not think that that meant I was stupid or weak but
00:26:31
just that's the way things have gone for me I remember sitting with Marissa Pierre and she said that she's never had a
00:26:40
patient whether they were a sports star or a you know successful millionaire or whatever
00:26:46
that believed they were enough in terms of her patience so the people that had
00:26:51
come to her struggling with something at the root of it is that they they didn't believe they were enough in some capacity
00:26:57
do you agree with that I think uh yeah I think self-worth
00:27:05
self-worth is something that comes up a lot and if I come to you and you know it's clear that I have my self-worth is
00:27:10
in the proverbial bin I just think I'm a [ __ ] you know useless worthless
00:27:18
don't deserve anything um what's the start of that process to get
00:27:23
me to a better place like where do you what'd you do with me so if you came to me it wouldn't be just
00:27:29
the problem wouldn't be I have low self-worth it would be I want to change this Behavior yeah right and I want to
00:27:34
change it I've been you know drinking too much alcohol smoking too much of that sniffing too much of this where would you start with me
00:27:42
well we would get an honest Baseline of where you're at now so that's why in the book we do like a snapshot letter
00:27:48
without judgment totally private to just say like I think a lot of the time we create plans for who we want to
00:27:54
be as opposed to Who We Are and we use this stuff to find ourselves and I think first of all you meet
00:27:59
yourself and you get on board with who you meet and then I would help you to understand
00:28:05
why you've come to be this way so in that first step getting yeah you know getting to understand who I am and
00:28:10
getting on board with who I meet that's through a snapshot letter yeah so it's essentially saying here we are today
00:28:17
this is where I'm at this is where I've got to this is where I'm starting usually it's quite a Fed Up letter like
00:28:23
something's got to change here we go but what it does is it sort of anchors
00:28:28
the process and says right this is where we begin and then when we start moving on to is
00:28:35
the fact that you already know what to do I believe that the people who buy my books already know what to do and I
00:28:40
believe that a lot of people feel really patronized when they're told what to do they know what to do
00:28:46
and if they don't they can Google it they don't know why they're not doing it despite wanting to do it
00:28:52
so then we start thinking about closing the gap between the advice you'd give another person so I just say to people
00:28:57
what would you like to be doing I don't give them an A or a B I would like to be running a marathon every day every you
00:29:04
know every couple of months I'd like to be fit I'd like to be skinny I'd like to be a good partner I'd want to be perfect
00:29:13
okay why why are you here why are we having this conversation because I'm not I'm
00:29:21
drinking so much hardcore sniffing so many things and doing all the naughty things I shouldn't be doing and I can't
00:29:27
stop myself but I know you're right I do know what I should be doing I just can't do it okay yeah and in the past when
00:29:34
you've created plans to change yeah what have they look like um I've basically thrown all of the
00:29:41
alcohol at my house and everything that I could possibly sniff and I have
00:29:47
emptied the fridge and put only vegetables in and I have
00:29:52
um written it down on a piece of paper and then a week later
00:29:58
I'm back to all of the naughty habits so what you've done is you've punished yourself you've put things in place yeah
00:30:04
to say this has got bad yeah I need to create this environment and control and isolate yeah so that I don't do the bad
00:30:10
thing yeah did you establish why what what you're afraid you might have to experience if you change did you
00:30:16
identify if you get there what if it's not as good as you think if you get there will you have to do all
00:30:22
the things that you've told people you're going to do when you get there is the process of getting there one that you're familiar with no all of that what
00:30:30
do you think you're gonna have to get through what are you gonna have to prove what do you what triggers you can have to respond to differently these are the
00:30:36
things people don't talk about what self-doubt are you gonna have to push against and disprove and update along
00:30:41
the way it's it's not about thinking you're going to be able to focus on what's bad and also you should anticipate that in a
00:30:49
week's time you're going to want to use you should put things in place what can I put in place to you know this is I
00:30:54
found this really compelling in your book The because something I think about a lot you know we think of motivation as being this like constant people ask
00:31:00
stupid questions like how do you stay motivated all the time which is again an assumption that people that are
00:31:05
successful in whatever facet of their life are able to always feel a sense of motivation but um how does one prepare
00:31:11
for that that dip that speed bump that you know the regression the relapse
00:31:20
it's uh I think the best bet you have is the conversation you have with yourself and your plans don't go to plan
00:31:27
and at the I think first of all you prepare by yeah you can have the best plans in the world but you should assume
00:31:32
that your plans will not go to plan and even with the best tools in the world you should assume that you're not able to preempt every single trigger
00:31:38
every single challenge the way that you do it is you start to reframe challenge as an opportunity to
00:31:43
voluntarily demonstrate your capacity you're like here we go
00:31:49
I I'm off I'm off grid right now and all I've got is the advice I'd give
00:31:55
another person and the conversation I have with myself that's going to turn into what I do with my hands well don't
00:32:00
do and I think that if you really focus on making that conversation one that holds
00:32:06
firmness and compassion together then that's the best thing you've got
00:32:12
because what you're chasing there is to feel smart and calm and proud of
00:32:17
yourself and you already know what you tell someone else
00:32:22
so the more you do that and the more you take that advice and you see the results obviously and it
00:32:27
actually works the more you start doing it in other areas of your life and my my job is to make myself redundant to
00:32:32
people as quickly as possible I think we should have been taught this at school we have to change habits our whole lives like why is life dragging us along and
00:32:39
making us change them when we're all depleted and desperate um so yeah I would say it's the
00:32:44
conversation you have with yourself and the conversation you have with yourself very often people people say to me like
00:32:49
how how can I hold kindness and firmness at the same time right so how can I
00:32:55
change habits which involves sitting in discomfort and craving and urges and still be kind to myself because being
00:33:00
kind to myself means doing whatever I want whenever I want to do it and what I always tell them is it's kind
00:33:06
of like if you let's say you have a kid and you read an article somewhere and
00:33:12
realized that this treat you've been giving your kid at 11AM every day for the last year is actually not very it's really unhealthy so as of tomorrow
00:33:20
you're not going to give the kid the treat you know you're not going to give the kid the treat the kid doesn't know yet kid wakes up tomorrow it's 11
00:33:27
o'clock you're not going to give them the treat what's what's the kid going to do want the treat and and what else cry
00:33:34
kick off yeah would you blame the kid for crying
00:33:39
no you'd expect the kid to cry yeah it's used to something you wouldn't make its life miserable
00:33:46
you'd make it as comfortable as possible and you just repeat that in a row until it realizes that it's come out
00:33:52
unscathed compassion I know why you feel this way of course you feel this way you deserve
00:33:58
to feel this way you scream all you want babe that doesn't mean I'm gonna do what you want that's the conversation you have with
00:34:04
your body over and over again where you hold compassion and firmness together until you've done it in a row until it's easy
00:34:10
that's my angle and if I it does it does it help to remove the you know the kid
00:34:15
wants the candy or whatever yeah whatever the thing the kid was expecting in the morning does it help to remove it from the environment
00:34:22
so if I if it's you know I've struggled sometimes with like I had this like sweetie draw in my house at one point
00:34:27
and I I knew I didn't want to eat the sweets
00:34:33
but when something would happen maybe it'd be late at night I feel a bit hungry maybe you know a bit stressed I'd end up in a draw
00:34:39
and so I always always wondered to myself would it just help to just remove the drawer just like pour it in the bin
00:34:44
I ultimately did um but I'm just wondering if those cues
00:34:49
those triggers removing them completely is the answer I have this question all the time about
00:34:54
abstinence and sobriety and whether you know again there are some people for
00:35:01
whom it's easier my Approach is very much more for the general population and so a lot of the
00:35:08
time it's more you know we all sit in the middle and I want you to feel like you can have chocolate in your house and
00:35:14
consume it and enjoy it and not feel powerless over it so at the core of my message is you decide what you do with
00:35:20
your hands and any negotiation you have internally about it is a jumping off point and doesn't actually make you do
00:35:25
anything and it's an insight into how what you're telling yourself about the sugar and what it means and how you'll feel if you don't have it
00:35:33
if you were trying to build up a streak and get some time onto your belt yeah maybe But ultimately what I would recommend
00:35:39
under those circumstances impose some friction give yourself some speed bumps to start thinking about whether you actually want
00:35:45
to do it so for example if I want to if I'm working into the night writing which I love doing invariably at
00:35:53
like 1am I start thinking about deliveroo and about 3 A.M I regret it strongly same so with that in mind I
00:36:02
don't just delete deliveroo call details are out addresses out it's not because I don't trust myself
00:36:10
it's because I want to put in moments where I think ah remember you didn't want to do this do you remember why you didn't want to do this
00:36:16
make it harder for myself to do the thing that I don't want to be doing and easier for myself to do the
00:36:21
thing that I do like back in the day when I used to hate exercise I used to go to sleep in my gym kit
00:36:27
so there was just one less thing to do um so that's like removing friction
00:36:33
exactly versus adding it exactly so I would if I were you I'd impose friction
00:36:38
first like put that draw somewhere else and and then when you go looking in
00:36:43
another place start thinking to yourself God why is that draw it disrupts the autopilot
00:36:49
that's what's something I struggled with I I do a lot of like late night eating and then I always regret it in the morning because you wake up feeling bad
00:36:55
especially if you've eaten just before you fall asleep the body hasn't really had a chance to digest it sometimes you
00:37:00
get like some I don't know reflux whatever they call it and I've always wondered how to stop myself doing that when I have when I have the urge
00:37:08
how do I break that habit I guess what's the friction that I can add don't be hungry at that time
00:37:14
true that's you know what sometimes I get really deep in the Weeds about binge eating and policy around it and obesity
00:37:20
and how we've got to take down all the diets and everything and sometimes I forget to say stuff like don't be hungry
00:37:25
that helps you know like there's so many like deep psychological stuff and we all have our own complex relationship with
00:37:31
food and stuff and the that's what's really difficult about talking about food is because it is all the good things too
00:37:37
it really is and much like with alcohol and Other Drugs when people people who struggle
00:37:44
and feel powerless around it feel really misunderstood because they hate it by that point it's
00:37:50
the bane of their life it's all they think about all day have I been good have I been bad
00:37:55
what am I going to have was that okay conflicting nutritional advice like let's go out of hand
00:38:02
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00:38:50
you wrote a book about that topic the last called the last diet why did you call it the last diet
00:38:55
because I will never gonna die again well I don't want anyone to go on a diet again they didn't work
00:39:02
they just didn't work like whenever anybody says to me like yeah but so and so is overweight and
00:39:08
it's unhealthy or whatever they have to go on a diet I'm like well no actually quite the contrary I'm now working with
00:39:13
people who have not only been left not with the physical results that they wanted but have been left with a much
00:39:19
more serious issue um which is an eating disorder a binge eating disorder which is wildly damaging
00:39:25
their mental health and their self-esteem and their ability to enjoy their lives most the people have come to me now couldn't give a [ __ ] about losing
00:39:32
weight anymore they're like remove this lack of trust remove this powerlessness like make this
00:39:37
end how did this come about and that was because of weight loss diets in my opinion on the back of this book it says
00:39:43
this is the last diet you'll ever go on yeah what is that diet
00:39:49
it's the diet of learning to stop do of trusting yourself and taking Common Sense advice now obviously we can we can
00:39:55
go into like whose body what and blood types and da da da But ultimately the people I speak to are doing so much
00:40:04
so many of their behaviors are causing them to gain weight a lot of weight because of the guilt and the shame and
00:40:10
the All or nothing and the scarcity mindset and the the Feast of famine that has come with weight loss diets with the
00:40:16
best of intentions um and so once they have managed that
00:40:21
and built the self-efficacy that they so deserve from managing to break the all
00:40:26
or nothing thinking trust themselves around food learn to enjoy food again sit in the discomfort of realizing that
00:40:32
they're going to be okay without it get on board with the fact that they find it hard when other people don't and build
00:40:38
their self-esteem that way and use the unhelpful behaviors as a vehicle
00:40:43
to remembering how capable they are then they can just take the same advice
00:40:50
they would give to another person because they're not scared of food anymore and they're not scared of themselves anymore
00:40:56
and they like themselves so they're more inclined to make to make judgments that feel smart you
00:41:02
know I got to a stage where I was doing diets where someone would show me a banana and a canister of cream and I'd be like well the canister of cream is
00:41:08
obviously better for me that's how messed up and you know what I know you think it's weird
00:41:13
I assure you I've spoken to enough people now who are going I know exactly what she's talking about that's the
00:41:19
extent to which intelligent people start moving away from Intelligent Decisions because diets needed us to come back
00:41:24
they needed you to be powerless they need you to need guidelines or else you need to pay more and pay someone else
00:41:30
and go find another Guru or get another diet as opposed to teach you how to take the
00:41:35
same advice you'd give another person there is no way that if someone was trying to manage their weight and they
00:41:40
ate something bad you would say oh well you've blown it now you should have 15 more
00:41:47
you said earlier you secretly had a gastric band fitted mm-hmm well secretly close friends knew but a
00:41:54
lot of my close friends didn't know I was just done when I got to my heaviest I was like that's it I'm done how have you
00:42:01
126 kilos and then you had it
00:42:07
removed in like a emergency operation yeah I'm always careful about talking about it because again I'm afraid that
00:42:13
people are going to be actually you know what I'm not promoting it by any means sorry I I know that there are people for
00:42:19
whom it's been really helpful but it did not teach me to eat differently and the reason I had an emergency operation is
00:42:24
because my relationship with food was so profoundly important to me I didn't understand at the time that I um
00:42:31
I've never talked to anyone about this but the band moved because I overrate
00:42:37
but I kept having it tightened because I didn't want to be allowed to overeat because I thought if I've done this to
00:42:42
myself and honestly Steve's like the pain it was horrible it was horrible I felt
00:42:49
so ashamed and then I lost a bunch of weight because it actually can I won't go into details but it can cause
00:42:55
a different eating disorder I lost a bunch of weight and I people start being really nice like you know they reflect
00:43:00
back to you your worst fears when you lose weight they'll be like oh wow
00:43:07
we were so worried about you finally now you can live your life and you're like [ __ ] I thought that was just me
00:43:14
um and then I felt ashamed because I thought like I'd copped out and now I realize on reflection it's
00:43:19
extraordinary that I thought I'd copped out and you know what the first version of the kindness method doesn't have that in it I wasn't ready
00:43:25
I wasn't I hadn't forgiven myself for being so mean to myself I hadn't
00:43:31
forgiven myself for feeling so shameful and I hadn't told some of my closest
00:43:36
friends who were there at the time and I'm sure knew
00:43:41
um that had the grace and the kindness not to embarrass me
00:43:46
but it was horrible and the day I came out of surgery I remember with the emergency surgery
00:43:52
they told me they were going to try and keep it in and I remember I came out and the woman went um
00:44:00
I'm really sorry we had to take it out and I burst into tears of joy I hated it
00:44:05
I hated the whole thing I took the lying I hate the shame I hated the guilt my body didn't feel good
00:44:11
because even when I lost weight it wasn't because I was taking care of myself it's because I was living living on so
00:44:18
little it just felt like another version of punishment you know
00:44:23
um it did not do good things for me how do you how do you feel about that
00:44:30
person that you were that that young woman who made the decision to fit that band and went through all of that pain
00:44:37
how did you how do you feel about her I can't believe how quick she was
00:44:44
to think that people would be upset with her or ashamed of or that she should be ashamed
00:44:51
I can't believe there wasn't that extra layer that said gosh
00:44:58
look what you're having to put yourself through or you think you have to put yourself through there wasn't even a bit of that
00:45:04
it was as though I was born with the knowledge is as though I had told myself that I was born with the knowledge to
00:45:10
make the best decisions for myself ever and if I wasn't then it was a failing on my part and I was faulty
00:45:17
and I you know I don't feel that anymore thank goodness
00:45:23
um you know I think it's also important to remember that I was all the great things I am now then that was the point I was
00:45:31
allowed to enjoy my life then so there's also part of me that's just like wow it's a real shame
00:45:37
it's a real shame that you didn't kind of lean into the other stuff because I was always fun I was always finding I was always kind
00:45:43
um I wish I had known at that age that you're allowed to think that you're good things too
00:45:50
that you know that's okay what were there any sort of specific moments or catalysts or dominoes that
00:45:56
fell that created the change you've seen in your life from the person you were then to now was there you know if
00:46:03
someone's can relate strongly to that situation where you're having that gastric band removed in an emergency orb
00:46:10
and they're looking at the person you are now what's what's the piece in between the actionable piece in between that they
00:46:16
can or even the first step in that Journey
00:46:22
is it going and seeing a therapist is it the first actionable step
00:46:29
is practicing listening listening into the way you speak to yourself
00:46:36
I think it'll I think ultimately it comes down to that I think listen in and the great news is
00:46:42
if you try to change a habit however small it's an incredibly effective way to turn up the volume
00:46:48
listen in on what's going on inquire compassionately curiously what
00:46:54
am I telling myself what am I what are my assumptions about myself in this situation what are my assumptions about what I
00:47:00
deserve curiously write them down think about whether you'd say that to someone else
00:47:06
and then start thinking about where it came from start seeing whether it's true just start curiously inquiring because I
00:47:13
think that's the best thing you've got and it's free where are you where are you now in terms
00:47:20
of your own self-talk and your own process and your own perception of self I am really good I am
00:47:30
this is the best I've ever been because everything's not great there's a
00:47:36
lot going on and I'm fine that's why that's how I know
00:47:42
I know how I would have responded to things that are happening right now for two three five years ago this
00:47:48
you know I slept really well last night am I telling you I kind of felt like this would go well like this was my time
00:47:55
to tell people what I'm passionate about and speak to the people who feel like some people don't get them
00:48:03
um so right now I feel great because it's kind of it feels like my nervous
00:48:08
system's kind of got the message you're safe you're harmless you're just trying to be nice
00:48:14
and no one's coming for you like and so far
00:48:19
um the more I'm myself the more it seems to go all right which for me personally is of course
00:48:25
considering what I've told you is an extraordinary thing and other than what I have to say my
00:48:31
name on the spot which I know a lot of stammers have I don't seem to be stammering and I know
00:48:36
that it was a trauma response now and I think that a lot of the self-compassion work that I've done has
00:48:42
helped me to calm down like a lot of this stuff realize that if I Stam it all the way through this
00:48:48
um it would I'd still be someone who was worth listening to that that nervous system the anxiety you
00:48:55
talked about what sort of methods have you put in place to help you calm down
00:49:01
writing for sure so when I'm panicking about something most of the time you know there's that confirmation com
00:49:06
component of just like yep and it did have you only remember the times it did happen right so I started collecting all the things I thought were going to
00:49:12
happen that I was worrying about and real like just writing them down or just saying them into my phone and then every now and then I'd reflect and be like wow
00:49:18
good to know that like I need evidence you know I need stuff
00:49:24
so I was like all right well the last 100 times you worried about this it did not happen and so that helped me calm down
00:49:30
that made it compelling for me breath work talking about anxiety understanding
00:49:37
anxiety and what it is and what the brain's trying to do and about keeping you safe and all that stuff
00:49:43
and eventually much like you know whether it's the militant mindfulness that I come at or the more like
00:49:49
meditative stuff and the more old school stuff it was essentially a separation between
00:49:54
uh what I'm thinking right now and what's actually going on in a curious compassionate
00:50:00
um look into why my thoughts are going the way they are and also it's an understanding it's
00:50:05
a preemption so for example I should well I probably won't now that I've said
00:50:11
it which is another thing like get it out put it in the put it in the light loads of us are suffering with anxiety
00:50:18
um to a different degree of course emptying it made it a lot more
00:50:23
predictable and a lot less personal so for example the last big podcast I went on I anticipated I
00:50:30
actually wrote myself a letter before and I was like after you leave even if you think you smashed it
00:50:36
you're going to start second guessing everything you said you're going to sketch out not want to talk to anyone about it because they're going to ask you questions and you're going to think
00:50:42
you forgot something so I just preempted it I just as we say in addiction I played the tape forward
00:50:47
and then it started making it more like oh yeah this is what my brain does to keep me safe take me back to my place
00:50:52
where I'm used to but actually the last hundred times it tried to do that I had nothing to be worried about so I kind of
00:50:57
just realized that I wasn't by myself anymore I was with myself and we were working out what was going
00:51:03
on and it got a lot more predictable and that made it a lot less personal which made me a lot more calm
00:51:12
and in terms of food yes what's your relationship like with food these days calm
00:51:18
and wonderful I never thought this day would come I eat what I like
00:51:24
I look forward to eating I don't feel like I need to justify to anyone what I'm eating or why I'm eating
00:51:30
it and great thing happened which for me you know with writing self-help books
00:51:36
and stuff you know especially when you're telling people you're going to change for good and I've changed for good well I only wrote it
00:51:42
five years ago what do they know you know so sometimes you have to do things privately for your own Integrity to be like oh thank you
00:51:48
and lockdown I put on weight I didn't eat differently
00:51:53
I didn't feel bad I thought I looked great and I was like yes I needed this
00:51:59
and then after lockdown I got into fitness and I've lost weight lost a bit more weight and I honestly I don't like
00:52:04
myself less or more so during lockdown what I saw was um
00:52:10
an example of what it is to just be a human whose body fluctuates without much judgment or emotion around food and it
00:52:16
was a wonderful important lesson for me and I'm really glad now on reflection even though it wasn't planned
00:52:22
that I did put on weight during that period because I needed to see that it didn't matter anymore and it wasn't because I was neglecting
00:52:27
myself because usually I run around town all day and I wasn't doing that and it was so lovely to just have that
00:52:33
be for regular body reasons and not shame or guilt or sadness or abuse or
00:52:40
numbing out or whatever um so yeah I love food now plus
00:52:45
I'm really uh glad no one talks to me about it anymore because of the book that I think they're scared to
00:52:52
I mean people don't quite know where I sit like because I think it's fine for people to want to lose weight
00:52:57
I think it's really messed up that we got told for a lifetime especially women lose weight lose weight lose weight lose weight oh no you can't go on a diet and
00:53:04
you're not allowed to want to lose weight you have to love your body exactly how it is meantime a bunch of us tried to do what they said and came out
00:53:10
of the diets bigger and with a eating disorder that makes us feel powerless even to
00:53:16
um even to follow Common Sense nutritional guidelines so yeah I don't have any problem with
00:53:23
people wanting to do whatever they want to do it's just that in my case it came as a result I was never
00:53:29
before a lockdown when I done all this work and I had all the methods and all the things I share
00:53:36
there was never a time when I was overweight because I liked food or I was enjoying food or it was too
00:53:42
much of a good thing that's why I understood addiction if you saw that I was overweight
00:53:47
according to whatever's you know scales and society and whatever bigger than I am now
00:53:52
it was always because I it those are the times I hated food the most it was the
00:53:58
bane of my life I barely tasted it I know but the same if you speak to someone who
00:54:03
feels dependent or powerless over alcohol they're not going to be like oh I love boots
00:54:09
it becomes when you're powerless it becomes horrible and so
00:54:16
there was a space for me to like myself a lot more when I was bigger
00:54:22
but because I neglected all these other habits of self-care I wasn't drinking water I wasn't like just basic stuff
00:54:30
at times when I was bigger it meant that I wasn't being good to myself but that is not the case for Everyone by any
00:54:37
means in fact for many people it's quite the opposite so that's where I think because it's
00:54:42
quite a nuanced conversation and one that I've given an enormous amount of thought to don't get me wrong I didn't
00:54:48
I didn't I wasn't naive about coming out to talk about things like this I knew I needed to work out where I sat but I
00:54:55
knew I meant well and I knew I was on the right path but I had to understood where I understand where I sat so that's
00:55:02
where now I think people sometimes they don't ask me about it because they're not sure
00:55:08
which side I'm on and the fact is it's both what is your mission now
00:55:14
what's your what's your personal mission what are you trying to do there's twofold I want one I want to convince
00:55:20
people that kindness gets [ __ ] done being nice to yourself and taking the
00:55:26
same advice you would give the people you love and closing the gap between what you would tell them and
00:55:31
what you tell yourself and what actions you would tell them to take and what actions you take yourself that's kindness and it gets [ __ ] done
00:55:39
one and two now that I've seen what's come back from the second book with the
00:55:44
last diet I am con I am determined to have binge
00:55:50
eating and powerlessness and lack of trust that people have as a direct result of weight loss diets to die with
00:55:57
my generation like it's Gotta Go because people my age
00:56:04
they know they don't want to pass this on to their kids no one does um it's going with me
00:56:13
we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest um not knowing who they're leaving it
00:56:18
for the question that they've left for you or is it ever appropriate
00:56:25
to hurt someone's feelings yes
00:56:32
I think so I've recently hurt someone's feelings and it was very upsetting for me as well
00:56:37
but it was appropriate because it wasn't all mine to carry
00:56:44
and it was appropriate to share it wasn't nice for me either
00:56:49
but it wasn't all mine so it was okay to say to them
00:56:54
this is this is what's upset me about you and I know it will upset you to hear this
00:57:01
but I shouldn't be carrying all of this when you're responsible for some of it
00:57:09
and that will have upset them yeah
00:57:15
sure thank you thank you so much for your time thank you for these wonderful books thank you for all of your work thank you for the wonderful way that you
00:57:20
articulate and deliver your opinions it's um it really does cut and that's um that's exactly what makes for a great
00:57:27
conversationalist and podcaster and I love your no BS approach to
00:57:33
the way that you communicate and serve and think because it's uh it's really refreshing to be honest and that's
00:57:39
pretty much why I I've Loved this conversation but also I wanted you to come here because I saw your conversation with MO
00:57:44
ah yes you have a really no BS way of articulating yourself which I think is very much needed um and your your
00:57:51
perspective on on kindness as a method to many of these things that we're
00:57:56
trying to solve as humans we often default to like the opposite of kindness we're mean to ourselves about and mean
00:58:01
to others about I think is I've learned the hard way that is very much the the way forward
00:58:07
so thank you so much thank you for having me [Music]
00:58:14
you know I never really usually pick the chocolate flavored heels my favorite are the banana flavor I love The Salted
00:58:21
Caramel flavor but recently I think I in part blame Jack in my team who's
00:58:27
obsessed with the chocolate flavor heals I've started drinking the chocolate flavor Hills for the first time and I absolutely love them my life means that
00:58:33
I sometimes disregard my diet and it's funny that's part of the reason why I've had a lot of guests on this podcast recently that talk about diet and health
00:58:40
and those kinds of things because I am trying to make an active effort to be more healthy to lose a little bit of weight as well but to be more healthy
00:58:46
and the role that heal plays in my life is it means that in those moments where sometimes I might reach for
00:58:53
you know junk Foods having an option that is nutritionally complete that is high in fiber that is
00:58:59
incredibly high in protein that has all the vitamins and minerals that my body needs within Arm's Reach that I can
00:59:05
consume on the go is where he always been a game changer for me [Music]
00:59:23
foreign [Music]
00:59:31
you got to the end of this podcast whenever someone gets to the end of this podcast I feel like I owe them a greater debt of gratitude because that means you
00:59:37
listen to the whole thing and hopefully that suggests that you enjoyed it if you are at the end and you enjoyed this
00:59:43
podcast could you do me a little bit of a favor and hit that subscribe button that's one of the clearest indicators we
00:59:49
have that this episode was a good episode and we look at that on all of the episodes to see which episodes generated the most subscribers
00:59:54
thank you so much and I'll see you again next time
