00:00:21
Shooting's been a a hobby for me for at least the past 33 years. It helps you think in a way that is
00:00:31
tactical and practical as well. >> Personal security of course has always been a concern,
00:00:44
especially as a prosecutor. >> All rise. >> My name is Ron Dur. I'm a deputy prosecuting attorney for Snowish County.
00:00:51
>> I'm trying the Jerry Jones case now for the third time. The case has spanned approximately 17 years of my career.
00:00:59
>> This is um a shocking scene, I think, even to the veteran police officers who
00:01:03
responded. >> I'm Joe Ward. I'm a homicide detective for the Snomish County Sheriff's Office,
00:01:08
and I was here 17 years ago to investigate the murder of Lee Jones. Mrs. Jones had received a lot of
00:01:14
injuries to her body. She had over 60 wounds, slashes, stabs. >> She's in the bathtub while she is being
00:01:20
killed. And she is vocal. She is yelling. She is screaming. She is battling her asalent. It looked like she
00:01:28
had fought for her life in that room and lost. [Music] Jerry Jones says he heard a noise and
00:01:37
responded and found his wife stabbed. And as he found her, someone brushed by him and pushed him against the wall and
00:01:43
cut his hand. Jerry's story is unbelievable. [Music] Detective Ward begins to realize that it
00:01:52
just doesn't add up and that he has the the murder suspect right in front of him.
00:02:00
It was a great relief to to get that first guilty verdict in this case. We have the Ninth Circuit deciding that
00:02:09
it was a weak circumstantial case and uh that it should be retrieded. It's 2001. We did it the second time.
00:02:18
The jury find the defendant Jerry Har Jones guilty of the crime of murder first charge after
00:02:26
a ver that was extremely satisfying one that uh I hoped meant the end of the case
00:02:34
the court of appeals of the state of Washington reverses us again I'm quite angry and embittered by what the court
00:02:40
of appeals has done as a prosecutor there are certain cases that resound in your consciousness that
00:02:48
that affect you on some emotional level. This was one of them. So I was not looking forward to
00:02:56
visiting that place yet again. I came the dawn. Round three. >> Opening statement from the defense, Mr.
00:03:09
Jones. >> Thank you, your honor. >> This trial had a strange twist as the murder defendant acted as his own
00:03:15
attorney. I've decided to represent myself. >> He just keeps coming back. >> Nobody knows the case better than I do.
00:03:24
>> It's almost as though he and I were meant to show up in the same courtroom and fight this thing out.
00:03:30
Defending your life. [Music] I loved my mother very much. And if I had any doubt whatsoever
00:04:12
that my dad might have done it, I wouldn't be standing by him like this. for almost 17 years.
00:04:19
>> My sister and I can come down this evening. >> Kim Jones and her younger sister Beth.
00:04:25
>> Our other interview starts at about 6. >> Have been on a mission. >> There's no way that he did this.
00:04:30
>> Trying to prove their father, Jerry Jones Jr., >> no, this is wrong. >> Is innocent of brutally killing their
00:04:39
mother, Lee. >> Has there ever been a moment where you've said, "Maybe dad did do this."
00:04:46
No. >> No. >> You have to know my dad. >> No. >> My dad is a very peaceful man. >> He never even raised his voice at anyone
00:04:54
in the family. >> Jerry, how you feeling? >> I'm feeling great. >> 48 hours began following this story in
00:05:01
1999 when Jerry Jones was released from prison for the first time. >> This is a dream come true
00:05:08
>> after an appeals court ruled his lawyer was ineffective. My dad deserves freedom
00:05:14
just like everybody else. >> His release marked the beginning of an incredible legal drama.
00:05:21
>> In 2001, Jerry Jones was retrieded and reconvicted. And then, remarkably, an appeals court reversed that conviction
00:05:29
because the jury didn't hear crucial evidence. Now, Jones and his daughters are back for round three. And this time,
00:05:37
Jones will be represented by the man he says knows this case better than anyone himself.
00:05:46
>> All rise. Court is again in session. >> Do you have any legal training at all?
00:05:52
>> No, I don't. >> Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, >> if they can get a feel for me as a human
00:05:58
being, then they'll be convinced that I am not capable of murdering anyone. The evidence will tell you that I loved my
00:06:06
wife. >> He'll be going toe-to-toe with the man who has prosecuted him twice before.
00:06:12
>> Please listen carefully to the evidence in the case. >> Ron Dersh. >> We do our best to make sure that
00:06:17
murderers don't get away with murder. >> The prosecutor will be unable to prove to you
00:06:23
that I murdered Lee for one very simple reason. I did not do it. And to ensure a fair
00:06:32
verdict, this jury won't hear about Jerry Jones's earlier trials or convictions.
00:06:38
>> I'm not perfect. I've made mistakes, but I'm not a murderer. >> I'd give anything if I could have her
00:06:45
back right now. [Music] >> It was Lee's beauty that first caught his attention back in 1970. I
00:06:56
encountered the most gorgeous creature I'd ever laid eyes on in my life. When Jerry was stationed in Vietnam serving
00:07:02
in the Air Force, >> she had these beautiful brown eyes and the most gorgeous smile you've ever
00:07:08
seen. And for me, it was just love at first sight. >> They married in Vietnam and their first
00:07:14
child, Kim, was born there. Within months, Jerry's tour ended and Lee left her family behind and moved to
00:07:23
the US to start a new life. >> Two more children are born. >> Mhm. Beth and Thomas.
00:07:29
>> Yes. >> Jerry retired after 20 years in the Air Force. And the family moved to Buffalo,
00:07:36
Washington, just outside Seattle. >> They were just in the prime of their marriage.
00:07:41
>> Look at those love birds. Oh, that's sweet. >> They were always hugging each other.
00:07:44
They were always kissing and just they were very close and very happy. >> Jerry became a successful pharmaceutical
00:07:52
salesman. Lee was a busy housewife raising three children. Everything in our home was encouraging and positive.
00:08:01
>> These are the last pictures of Lee taken at a Thanksgiving celebration. 9 days later, she would be stabbed 63
00:08:13
times in the family bathtub. >> When my wife needed me the most, I couldn't do it. I couldn't help her.
00:08:27
On the night of December 3rd, 1988, Jerry and Lee were at home with four-year-old Thomas. According to
00:08:34
Jerry, Lee had put their son to sleep, then went to the hallway bathroom to take a bath.
00:08:43
Jazz music was playing from a radio in Jerry's study. He was across the hall in the master bedroom. His shower was
00:08:52
running in the adjoining bathroom. >> I heard this horrible scream, one loud, piercing scream. I'd never
00:09:01
heard anything like that before in my entire life. >> Jerry says he raced towards the bathroom
00:09:08
door. >> This is happening so quickly, so fast. You start perceiving that something is
00:09:15
coming out. And as I'm moving closer to the doorway, you see more and more. And it's a knife.
00:09:22
>> Jerry remembers colliding with an intruder and reaching for the knife. >> And in the process, I suffered some
00:09:28
cuts. I'm knocked back. I hit my head against the wall. Boom. Fall to the floor. And I'm seeing these black and
00:09:35
white flashing lights. And when I got up, there was nobody in the hallway any longer.
00:09:42
They immediately went into the bathroom. And I encountered the most horrible situation I've ever seen in my life.
00:09:54
>> 911, what do you have? Hurry. Uh, my wife, she has been stabbed repeatedly. >> I find my wife in the tub and she is
00:10:03
struggling. I said, "My godly, what happened?" She was trying to speak. I'm convinced of that. I can recall this
00:10:12
this chattering sound of her teeth. Can you tell me where she's stabbed? >> All over.
00:10:18
>> Okay. Is there a knife in her anywhere? Do not remove the knife. >> Her eyes were wide open and she was
00:10:24
looking right at me and I realized that she was losing her physical life very rapidly.
00:10:31
>> Will you help me help her? >> I'll try. What can I do? >> Is she breathing? >> I don't think so, ma'am. I think she's
00:10:37
dead. Amid this blood and chaos, Thomas woke up. >> I went upstairs and I found my mother.
00:10:46
She was in the bathtub and uh was bloody. No father on this earth would want his
00:10:56
son to see his mother in that condition. It was one of the most violent murders I've ever seen. She was viciously
00:11:09
attacked and she fought for her life. These are all scene photographs taken the night of the investigation.
00:11:15
>> Detective Joe Ward was the lead investigator. >> All I could see was that I had a wet and
00:11:20
bloody man with a hand wrapped in a towel and a dead wife in the bathroom. >> I think they had already made up their
00:11:27
mind. Lee is dead. Jerry's at home. Case is closed. >> We don't have any witnesses that saw
00:11:34
anybody run from the house. We don't have any DNA. There's really an absence of any evidence of an intruder.
00:11:42
>> Jerry, did you murder your wife, Lee Jones? >> No, I didn't. Peter, they didn't do an
00:11:47
investigation that night, and within 2 hours, I found myself under arrest for something I didn't do.
00:11:57
>> Making an arrest that night without talking to anybody else other than my dad was a very big mistake. I'm the one
00:12:05
who knows what happened on that December night better than anyone else. >> As daughters Kim and Beth listen to
00:12:13
their father's opening statement, they know this third trial may be his last. >> There was no reason, no motive
00:12:22
>> and his best chance to prove. >> It was an intruder who did it. >> Someone else murdered Lee Jones. You
00:12:30
will hear that a disturbed teenage neighborhood boy committed this awful crime. I think he's desperate.
00:12:40
Too sure the finger is pointed elsewhere. [Music] [Music] I lived in the shadow of the L, the uh
00:12:56
the J train. It ran about 10 ft from my window. My mom and dad owned a delicatess there
00:13:05
for about 35 years. This Queens, New York neighborhood is a long way from Everett, Washington.
00:13:16
But for prosecutor Ron Dur, there's a close connection. I think that Ron saw Lee Jones as
00:13:26
someone similar to his mom. >> Mara Rosano is Ron's wife and also a prosecutor. >> His mom was someone very special in his
00:13:36
life. >> My mother was an immigrant and she always spoke with heavily accented English. She was about 5'4 and uh
00:13:46
her name was Elizabeth and everyone called her Leah. and he's determined to get justice for
00:13:52
Lee Jones. >> Here's the old case file, >> even after all these years. >> This is all Jerry Jones.
00:13:59
>> These are all his. Well, there's no doubt I'm sick of the case. Not sick enough to let him go.
00:14:08
[Music] >> As prosecutor Ron Dur begins his case, he's feeling the pressure. He's won
00:14:15
hundreds of trials, but now faces the possibility of professional humiliation. What if Jerry Jones, a self-taught
00:14:23
lawyer wannabe who Dur has convicted twice before, wins this case? >> That'd be a hard one to swallow, would
00:14:31
it? That'd be tough. Is Jerry a good attorney? >> I think he is. He's He's done a lot better than all I
00:14:40
have on occasion. Let's take you back to December 3rd of 1988. >> Dur believes his opposing council is in
00:14:49
fact his best evidence. >> The strongest piece of evidence is Jerry Jones. He is still here. He is still
00:14:56
alive. Her autopsy will show that. He tells the jury about Lee's defensive wounds, the blood spatter in the
00:15:04
bathroom, and the cuts on Jerry's right hand that Jerry says were caused by the intruder.
00:15:11
>> They're consistent with a defensive move on my part to knock the knife out of his
00:15:18
hand when I encountered him in the hallway. >> Showing you exhibit number 121. But a
00:15:23
forensic expert testifies the cuts more likely occurred when Jerry's hand slid off the knife handle.
00:15:31
>> How? >> Blood on the hand of the asalent can be transferred to the handle of the knife,
00:15:35
making it slippery. >> As he allegedly stabbed Lee dozens of times >> report, >> Jerry counters with his own expert.
00:15:44
>> It's a cut. That's all you can say. >> My fingerprints were not on the knife.
00:15:50
My blood was not on the knife. and my DNA is not on the knife. How on earth is it possible to stab someone 63 times
00:16:03
and yet leave no physical evidence whatsoever? >> I think that he rinsed off the handle of
00:16:09
that knife. I think he was fully aware that uh there would be some testing, fingerprint or otherwise.
00:16:17
>> The jury also hears that Jerry let crucial minutes pass. 3 5 minutes. >> 911. Where do you hurry?
00:16:25
>> Before calling 911. >> Let me give you a >> Jerry Lee is in the tub bleeding to
00:16:31
death. And you still haven't called 911. >> I don't get it. >> I don't get it either.
00:16:39
>> But Ron believes he knows why. In the midst of everything, four-year-old Thomas comes upstairs.
00:16:47
>> And not just once, but several times, as far as we're able to tell. And at this
00:16:51
point, uh, Jerry's hands are already full. He's got a dying woman. He's got cuts on his hands. And here comes his
00:16:57
kid. >> Jerry takes Thomas back to his bedroom. >> If you didn't kill Lee, why in the world
00:17:04
would you have taken your young son, back downstairs, and left him there when you don't know
00:17:13
whether or not the killer is still in the house? Well, Peter, you're presuming, of
00:17:19
course, that I'm thinking clearly, coherently, and logically at this point in time.
00:17:25
>> There is no intruder in the home, and there never was. The killer is Jerry Jones. He knows
00:17:31
Thomas is safe downstairs. >> Thomas comes upstairs again. This time, Jerry takes his son to Graham Smith, his
00:17:40
next door neighbor. >> As I open the door, uh Jerry was there on the porch. The judge has asked us to
00:17:46
not show the faces of some witnesses. >> Jerry said that he was watching TV. He was hit over the head and when he came
00:17:54
to he found Lee leading and stabbed. >> You tell your neighbor that you were struck on the head while watching TV.
00:18:02
You tell the police that you collided with the intruder. Two separate stories. >> I didn't tell two different stories. My
00:18:10
response to him was, "I hit my head and when I got up, I found Lee bleeding all over."
00:18:19
It is only after he returns home that Jerry finally calls 911. >> Yes, my wife. >> What's the address?
00:18:28
>> 190 160. >> But he gives them the wrong address. >> You're going to have to help me because
00:18:34
we have a conflict with your address. Lead investigator Joe Ward believes Jerry's mistake was intentional.
00:18:41
>> I think that's just another part of his plan to delay the response to the house
00:18:47
just to make sure that his wife was dead. >> It took the police 10 minutes to find
00:18:52
the house. And when they went inside, they discovered Jerry wet and bloody. A forensic scientist testifies to
00:19:01
scenarios of how the crotch area of Jerry's jeans became stained with Lee's blood.
00:19:08
>> One potential would be if the rail of a bathtub in this crime scene had been saturated with blood and an individual
00:19:16
sat on that rail. The other object that I know is long and narrow and bloody is the limbs, the arms and legs of Lee
00:19:23
Jones. >> I think at some point he is sitting on her to hold her down. sitting on her while he's stabbing her.
00:19:30
>> Yes. >> Not true, says Jerry Jones. >> I loved her. I did not murder my wife. I
00:19:38
could not do it. There was no reason for me to do it. >> In fact, Jerry says if he wanted Lee
00:19:44
dead, he had his chance right here in their bedroom. It was during a rough period in their marriage when the couple
00:19:52
separated, Lee attempted suicide, overdosing on sleeping pills. Jerry found her and rushed her to the
00:20:00
emergency room. >> Their separation was the best thing that ever happened to them. They really
00:20:07
realized how much they appreciated each other. >> Look at those love birds. Oh, how sweet.
00:20:14
>> The couple soon reconciled. >> In the last year um before my mom died, they were very close.
00:20:22
>> Marriage was perfect maybe for him. But Lee's friends, Barbara Sleeper and Mary McNotton, say
00:20:30
right before she was murdered, Lee was looking for a way out. >> Jerry and his daughters can say anything
00:20:36
they want to. He can talk about how in love he was and that they, you know, were reunited and everything else, but I
00:20:41
knew that she wanted to get divorced. >> Isn't it possible that Jerry Jones is innocent?
00:20:48
>> I I don't see how it's possible. But Jerry Jones insists he knows who really killed Lee.
00:20:58
>> President, if you would raise your right hand, >> and he's about to put him on trial.
00:21:03
[Music] >> You think you'll see Busby today? >> Probably. You looking forward to that?
00:21:24
>> Not looking forward to that. No, >> Paul rise calls Daniel Busby. >> We're not allowed to show his face.
00:21:34
>> Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
00:21:37
truth? So help you God. >> I do. >> But for more than 16 years, Jerry Jones has insisted this man is his wife's real
00:21:46
killer. >> Danny Busby did it, Peter. There's no doubt in my mind about that. Do you have
00:21:51
a mouth on you back there? >> Yeah, >> you wise ass. >> Yeah. >> Prosecutor Ron Dersh says there is no
00:22:00
evidence that Danny Busby, then a 15-year-old teenager, was involved. >> On December 3rd of 1988,
00:22:08
did you murder Lee Jones in her house in Boston? >> No. >> There is no connection basically between
00:22:14
Danny Busby and the crime scene that night. All the DNA evidence tends to exclude Danny Busby,
00:22:20
>> but Ron knows Danny's tough guy presence will vastly complicate his case. >> Chew a gun there.
00:22:27
>> Yeah. >> Can you swallow that? >> No. >> He's kind of a loose cannon, and I'm
00:22:31
concerned about that. >> At the time of Lee's murder, Danny was a friend of Beth Jones.
00:22:40
>> I knew he had a crush on me, >> a neighborhood loudmouth. He was always the one that would initiate something
00:22:48
troublesome >> who liked to tease Thomas, >> growling at him like a lion or tiger and
00:22:52
just scaring him >> and antagonize Lee. >> He appeared to us to be just an obnoxious teenage boy. We know that he
00:23:01
has grown and developed into a very disturbed, vicious, uncaring, brutal person. Now, for the first time in three
00:23:10
trials, Jerry Jones is allowed to tell the jury about Danny Busby's troubled past, a history of violence that Jerry
00:23:18
says began the night that Lee died. He'll directly confront Busby about his assaults against ex-girlfriends and
00:23:27
threats to kill people. It's evidence that Jerry Jones hopes will convince the jury that Danny Busby is capable of
00:23:35
murder. >> Mr. Mr. Do, do you have any questions, Mr. Busby? >> I do. >> I think we're going to be allowed to
00:23:41
paint him as the monster that he is. >> Would you describe yourself as prone to violence?
00:23:48
>> I have been in the past. >> Was it common for you to become so angry that you would lose control and black
00:23:54
out? >> Slightly. >> What's it like for you to look into Danny Busby's eyes? >> I see a disturbed person, a violent
00:24:01
person, a person almost without a soul. And would you describe yourself as having an uncontrollable temper
00:24:09
>> at times? Yeah. >> Jerry says it was that uncontrollable temper that exploded after Lee banned
00:24:17
Danny from visiting and calling Beth. >> But you continued calling Beth, did you
00:24:22
not? >> Probably. >> You continued to come to the house asking for Beth, didn't you?
00:24:27
>> It's quite possible. Jerry claims that an enraged Dany was looking for Beth the night of the
00:24:34
murder, but found Lee instead. And he viciously stabbed and slashed and attacked her over and over and over
00:24:45
again that night. >> The problem with your allegation is that there's no physical evidence that Busby
00:24:51
was at your home. There's no witness that places him there. >> I think there is. I think there is. I
00:24:58
think Thomas was awakened by a growling sound. >> Do you recall ever growling at Thomas
00:25:06
like a lion or a tiger to frighten him? >> I don't recall. >> Are you saying that never happened?
00:25:13
>> No. Saying I don't recall. >> Danny Busby growled at Thomas >> prior to going upstairs and murdering
00:25:21
Lee. And he is the only person who ever growled at Thomas. Ron Dur believes if there were any growling sounds that
00:25:30
night, they came from Jerry himself. >> Is there growling going on? Is Jerry Jones grunting or growling while he's
00:25:36
stabbing Lee? This is hard work. You take a look at those autopsy photos. This is hard work. This is not easy
00:25:42
stuff to do. >> Then there's Busby's long history of violence against his girlfriends.
00:25:49
>> Did you begin physically abusing Crystal? >> Yeah. Did you punch Vandra on the
00:25:54
shoulder numerous times? >> Yeah. >> Did you throw Joey to the ground? >> No, I pushed her.
00:26:01
>> Your honor, I have no further questions at this time. >> Things get even worse for the
00:26:06
prosecution as those former girlfriends take the stand. >> You solemnly swear to tell the truth,
00:26:12
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So help you God. >> We can't show their faces.
00:26:17
>> He was both verbally and physically mean. He could be kind and fun one minute and then freak out.
00:26:25
>> He would just kind of snap and change personalities. He'd be so furious. >> They're very sympathetic people. There's
00:26:32
just no question that he has put them through hell. >> He gave me a black eye. >> He started kicking the crap out of me.
00:26:38
>> Pretty much attacked me and spit in my face. >> But Ron Dersh says Jerry is using Danny
00:26:43
Busby as a convenient scapegoat. Remember that when we look at what Danny Busby's done as an adult, he has not
00:26:51
attempted to murder anyone >> on any occasion. Did he, in your opinion, seriously try to kill you?
00:26:57
>> No. >> He has not physically stabbed or assaulted anyone in the way that we have
00:27:02
in this case. >> Danny never threatened you with a knife or any kind of weapon, did he?
00:27:05
>> No. >> And the challenge is going to be to draw that line between Danny Busby as a
00:27:10
15year-old and Danny Busby as an adult. Did he once tell your mother that she was dead?
00:27:17
>> Yes. >> And has he also threatened to rape your mother? >> Yes. >> If the jurors decide that Danny Busby is
00:27:26
volatile enough to have done this, then the case is lost. >> All rise. >> Defense calls next witness.
00:27:39
[Music] Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
00:27:48
truth? So help you God. >> Yes, I do. >> All of them wanted to be there. >> I do.
00:27:53
>> All of them wanted to testify. >> Yes, I do. >> All of them wanted to tell their
00:27:58
stories. >> And all of them want to help free their father. To do that, Jerry is counting on
00:28:04
their testimony to put then 15-year-old Danny Busby at the crime scene in December 1988.
00:28:13
Were you ever present when Danny Busby would growl at Thomas like a lion or a tiger?
00:28:19
>> Yes, he did that very frequently. >> Did he ever growl at you? >> I think so. Yes. What asked Jones, did
00:28:30
Thomas hear on the night his mother was murdered 16 years ago when he was just four years old?
00:28:39
I remember it being more animallike than that. >> He said he woke up when he heard
00:28:44
growling noises and that a lion or a tiger got mom. >> He was repeating a lion or tiger had
00:28:50
gotten mom. >> While I'm watching them testify, I'm thinking, you know, this is amazing.
00:28:55
These people are flawless. They are polished. They are rehearsed. You think to yourself, "Damn it, wise
00:29:03
up." >> While Beth, Kim, and Thomas lovingly stand by their father, Jerry Jones knows
00:29:09
that it is his testimony and not his children's that jurors really want to hear. So, as his own attorney, he
00:29:16
decides to take the stand and come face to face with Ron Dur. A confrontation 16
00:29:24
years in the making. [Music] Once I knew that the case was coming back, it was clear to me that there
00:29:33
would be some sort of face off. >> I don't look at it as a match between Ron Dur and myself.
00:29:41
>> The defense would call Jerry Jones, your honor. >> I look at it as an opportunity to
00:29:46
present the evidence to a jury of 12 people. >> Solemnly swear to tell the truth, the
00:29:51
whole truth, >> and prove my innocence. But before Ron faces Jerry, >> Jerry, did you kill your wife?
00:29:58
>> I did not kill my wife. >> A public defender assigned by the court to advise him asked Jones to explain his
00:30:06
bizarre behavior after he discovered Lee had been stabbed. >> Did you at any point that evening go and
00:30:14
get wet? >> Yes. >> How did you do that? I ran into the master bedroom and heard the water running in the shower
00:30:25
and I went to turn it off and I felt a sting on my hand >> and I looked and saw that it was
00:30:31
bleeding and I just ran back out. >> That's not the story Jerry told at his first trial.
00:30:40
>> Cross-examination. >> Yes, sir. Thank you. >> Ron believes he's caught Jerry in a lie.
00:30:45
He whips out the transcripts and reads Jerry's own words back to him. >> I open the shower door and instead of
00:30:54
reaching in and turning the shower off, I step inside. Clothes and all, I let the water run
00:31:00
from the top of my head down the front of my body. You're called testifying to that effect in 1989.
00:31:07
>> If if that's what it says, that's obviously what I testified to. >> I have no further questions. After just
00:31:14
a handful of questions, Dur retreats. >> I was amazed at how few questions Ron Dur asked me. I believe he was fairly
00:31:25
convinced that he had lost the trial. >> I expected you to take off the gloves that this was going to be a bare knuckle
00:31:31
confrontation with Jerry and it seems like he played a little patty cake. Was that a strategy?
00:31:38
Were you Did you choke? I couldn't get mad at him at that point. Just because I have a stick to hit him with doesn't
00:31:46
mean I'm going to hit him with it. >> But Ron uses that stick in his closing statement.
00:31:55
>> Exhibit one for the state is Jerry Jones because he is still here. He is still
00:32:03
alive. Danny Busby is as subtle as a brick through a plate glass window. Do you think having listened to Danny Busby on
00:32:10
the st, having seen his behavior here, he could keep his mouth shut, Danny Busby is offered up as the boogeyman?
00:32:17
And he was not. And he did not kill Lee Jones. We know who did. And it's Jerry Jones.
00:32:28
For Jerry and his family, their long battle to win his freedom comes down to one final argument.
00:32:37
The prosecutor has failed to prove that I murdered my wife, Lee Jones, for one reason. I did not do it.
00:32:46
As you know, I'm on trial here. You're going to go into that room soon and deliberate, and you're going to vote
00:32:58
either guilty or not guilty. Jerry Jones's name is on that ballot. Danny Busby's name is not there.
00:33:10
It's outrageous. Just it doesn't add up. I had no motive. I was not a violent person. I was not an explosive person.
00:33:23
I'm the person you see standing before you today. >> I think what the jury got to see was
00:33:30
>> Jerry Jones acting in closing. >> The crying. >> Yeah. rehearsed. >> Absolutely.
00:33:38
>> Yeah. >> Genuine. >> No. >> For the third time, Jerry Jones fate is in the hands of a jury.
00:33:48
In a scant four and a half hours, the jury reaches a verdict. >> All rise. Court is again in session.
00:34:13
>> After a grueling 3-week trial, >> all parties are here. We have a verdict. Please bring in the jury.
00:34:19
>> Jurors reach a verdict in just 4 and 1/2 hours. >> I'm thinking they came back too soon.
00:34:24
They're going to walk it. >> It's a joint. If you please stand for the reading of the verdict.
00:34:28
>> Oh, I'm expecting a not-uilty verdict. >> We all took it very seriously. >> Just the weight of it. It was almost
00:34:34
overcoming. >> Jurors remember a tense courtroom as they filed in with their verdict.
00:34:40
>> I looked at Jerry Jones and I looked at Ron Durst. I think both of those guys
00:34:44
have had a very personal role in this thing for the last 16 years. >> We the jury find the defendant Jerry
00:34:49
Bartlett Jones Jr. guilty >> of the crime of murder in the first degree as charged
00:34:56
>> when you hear the word for the third time guilty. What was that moment like for you? You
00:35:03
>> just shake your head in disbelief and um what on earth are they thinking? When I hear the word guilty, I'm
00:35:15
thinking this is over for now. This is over. >> For prosecutor Ron Dur, winning a third
00:35:22
conviction is a tremendous relief. >> Was justice served here today, Ron? >> Absolutely. It was served in 2000. It
00:35:29
was served in 1989. >> It's the right verdict. >> All right. >> Yeah. 36 jurors from three trials have now
00:35:43
heard the evidence in this case and not one believes that you are innocent. >> Yeah, that's very disappointing. I don't
00:35:50
have an explanation for it. >> Do you think you should have done anything differently?
00:35:55
>> I think I did everything humanly possible. I can't imagine anything more I could have done. Tell me what the
00:36:01
evidence is that convinces you that I murdered my wife. We went through everything and it just
00:36:09
didn't fit. A lot of us look through every single piece of evidence, including the clothes, the knife, every
00:36:14
single picture, making sure there wasn't something that we were missing. That's why we took 4 and 1/2 hours, or else we
00:36:20
could have came out of that jury room in 45 minutes. >> Jurors didn't buy Jerry's version of
00:36:25
events. >> He had a lot of inconsistencies with his stories >> or his explanation for the cuts on his
00:36:32
hand. It looked like there was at least two contacts with a knife that we could tell, which didn't match up with him
00:36:38
telling us that he had a runin with an asalent and knocked that knife out of his hand. They also didn't believe
00:36:44
Jerry's story of only hearing a single scream as his wife was being stabbed 63 times in the next room.
00:36:53
>> I've lived in a split level house myself. I could be downstairs and hear stuff going on upstairs in the bathroom.
00:37:00
I think there was a terrible struggle and I think you would have heard that all over that house.
00:37:06
>> Can you tell me where she's stabbed? >> All over. >> And after listening to the 911 tape
00:37:11
several times >> on the whole 911 tape, he never cried. >> No, never. >> I thought that was odd.
00:37:17
>> And then he would put down the phone and run and go do this. >> Sir. Sir. >> And put down the phone and run and go do
00:37:22
that. >> Hello. >> When you're on the phone with 911, you stay on the phone. >> You solemnly swear to tell the truth.
00:37:29
And what about Danny Busby? The person Jerry Jones claims is the real killer. >> There was no evidence that Danny Busby
00:37:36
was in that house that night. There was no DNA evidence. There was no blood evidence.
00:37:40
>> Right. >> There was nothing that put Danny Busby in that house except Jerry Jones wanting
00:37:44
him to be in that house and he wasn't. >> Jurors found Danny Busby unlikable. >> Busby is a really nasty human being,
00:37:52
>> but believable. >> He was being very honest about the fact he had hit the woman. He had pushed her
00:37:57
head into the steering wheel. He had admitted to everything, but when it came down to did you kill Lee Jones? No, I
00:38:02
did not kill Lee Jones. >> It was Jerry Jones they didn't believe. >> Every move, every emotion he made seemed
00:38:10
planned out. >> I'm sure he's loving with his children and his grandchildren, but I think his
00:38:15
wife was a whole another matter. >> He looks nice on the outside and he speaks with a soft tone, but he gives me
00:38:21
the creeps. >> He could not hide himself from the jury. >> I did not murder my wife. They saw
00:38:28
through to him to his essential core. >> All rise. >> 5 days after being convicted,
00:38:37
>> state versus Jerry Bartlett Jones. >> Jerry Jones is back in court for sentencing.
00:38:42
>> He is present. He is in custody. >> And for the third time, >> we stand up for him because we believe
00:38:47
in his innocence. Absolutely. >> His daughters ask for compassion. Everyone talks about how much we love
00:38:53
our dad, but they seem to forget how much we loved our mother. >> You can send him to prison, but prison
00:39:03
isn't going to make us suffer any more than we already have in these last 16 years.
00:39:09
>> But for Pam O'Keefe, Danny Busby's mother, Jerry Jones doesn't deserve any sympathy.
00:39:16
>> The evil started the night Jerry Jones murdered his wife. and the next day when
00:39:21
he accused my son of doing it. >> No one knows how years of being vilified affected Danny Busby's life. But his
00:39:30
mother believes Jerry Jones needs to be punished for all the lives he's damaged.
00:39:36
I hope a day doesn't go by for the rest of your life that you don't think of your wife
00:39:44
and how you took her life away from your children and then you accused a 15-year-old innocent boy. You have
00:39:52
ruined so many lives. [Music] >> When it's Jerry's turn, he seems remorseful. >> Wish Danny Busby's name had not come to
00:40:04
mind. I have no reason to bring his name into these proceedings. Stop damaging Danny Busby.
00:40:17
>> Jerry is chastised one last time >> and let him heal and grow the best he can
00:40:23
>> before Judge James Allenorfer sentences him. >> I'm going to sentence you for the third
00:40:30
time in your life to 25 years in the penitentiary. got anything in your pockets at all?
00:40:40
>> But just a few months later, back in prison, Jerry Jones is defiant once again.
00:40:48
>> Do you owe Danny Busby an apology? >> No, I do not owe Danny Busby an apology,
00:40:53
and none will be forthcoming. >> I think it's entirely likely that at this point he's managed to convince
00:40:59
himself that he did not commit this this murder. For Ron Dur, the battle against Jerry
00:41:06
Jones is finally over. He's moving on, but not to another case. >> I, Ronald Dersh, swear that I will
00:41:14
support, defend, and obey. >> Instead of prosecuting, he'll be enforcing the law.
00:41:19
>> You sure you want to do this? >> Yes, sir. >> Welcome aboard. >> As a deputy sheriff,
00:41:25
>> but the case that has consumed his life for so many years will be much more difficult to leave behind. I don't know
00:41:34
that anything we can do in in a courtroom can really put the dead to rest. Clearly, the family has been damaged, I
00:41:42
think, beyond repair by what Jerry Jones did. So, in terms of whether Lee Jones can rest, I hope she can rest.
00:41:50
The rest of us, I don't think can [Music] Before [Music] we begin, just a trigger warning. The
00:42:43
following episode contains references to graphic physical violence. Please listen
00:42:48
with care. [Music] Jerry, did you take a filet knife and inflict 63 stab wounds on your wife Lee
00:43:00
and kill her? >> I did not. >> And you swear on everything you believe to be holy that that's true.
00:43:06
>> Everything I can imagine to be holy. I would swear to that fact. Yes. [Music]
00:43:13
That is the sound of Jerry Jones being interviewed by 48 Hours correspondent Peter Vansand about the 1988 murder of
00:43:21
his 41-year-old wife Lee. My name is Judy Ryback. I'm a longtime 48 Hours producer and this is Killer
00:43:30
Conversation, a podcast about what we at 48 Hours have learned about the criminal
00:43:36
mind after years of interviewing convicted killers. In this episode, Peter Vansent will take us behind the
00:43:44
scenes of two conversations he had with Jones, one of the killers who still haunts him to this day. We'll hear never
00:43:52
before heard, revealing exchanges between a highly skilled interviewer and a man convicted of killing the mother of
00:44:00
his three children. >> Peter, thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate you taking
00:44:07
the time. >> It's great, Trudy, to be working with you again. We've done this many times,
00:44:12
so it's a pleasure. >> So, Peter, about how many killers do you think you've interviewed for 48 hours?
00:44:19
>> Kind of a strange question, isn't it? I mean, I don't get asked that very often,
00:44:22
but you know, I did some digging and uh cuz over the decades, actually, and it's
00:44:27
over 20 killers. They've strangled, shot, stabbed, blown a husband up in a car bomb, cut throats, tortured, beaten,
00:44:37
poisoned, dismembered, burned, and buried their victims. They're all scary people. But the man we're going to talk
00:44:44
about today, Jerry Jones, he's from my home state of Washington. And in fact, this murder case was just about 8 miles
00:44:50
from where I grew up. And he still has me looking both ways when I leave the office. When I leave the broadcast
00:44:58
center where we are recording this, I always check to my left and right because it's the way he murdered his
00:45:06
wife Lee that really haunts me to this day. >> That is incredible, Peter. You told me
00:45:12
that over dinner one night while we were on the road and I was just blown away. And that's because Jerry Jones is a free
00:45:19
man today. He was parrolled from prison in 2008 after serving only 16 years of a
00:45:26
25-year sentence. >> That's not unusual in my home state of Washington. Um the system there, they've
00:45:32
always taken a a European view of incarceration and they see it as a time of rehabilitation that people can
00:45:39
change. And Jerry, after 16 years in prison, he's he got that second chance and he's now living peaceibly, as far as
00:45:47
I know, in rural Washington state in Western Washington. A >> as someone who believes in second
00:45:53
chances, I have mixed feelings about that. But I really want people to understand the brutality of this crime.
00:46:01
>> The lead investigator who I interviewed, who'd been in many, many homicide situations, had never seen anything like
00:46:08
this. Keep in mind, you know, with a typical murder on a 48 hour show, somebody shoots someone or if they're going to
00:46:17
use something like a knife, they get a butcher knife, they go for the heart, they go for the jugular for a quick
00:46:22
kill, right? It was just the opposite in the way that Lee Jones died. She wasn't
00:46:29
stabbed as much as, this is difficult to listen to, as she was sliced. This was a
00:46:36
fililet knife uh that had a curved end to it. It's a kind of knife that that you might have to cut your steak, right?
00:46:43
It was not a butcher knife. And she was cut at least 63 times. And the forensic expert said that there may may have been
00:46:54
40 different attempts to to cut her and that the this movement of the blade if he was going left to right or right to
00:47:01
left uh would sometimes give her two or three wounds. So that at least 40 different
00:47:09
thrusts at her with this knife, but they were not designed to kill her right away. She suffered minute after minute
00:47:18
after minute. This woman bled out. That's how she died. So when you first met Jones, he had been convicted. He had
00:47:27
served 10 years. The conviction was overturned and he had been out for 2 years. He was about to go to trial a
00:47:34
second time. Um, what what was that like interviewing a man who you knew had been convicted and
00:47:45
was most likely lying to you? >> Well, what was fascinating about Jerry's case is that it became a bit of a media
00:47:53
sensation when he got out. He has two daughters, um, beautiful, intelligent, articulate, and they had been
00:48:00
campaigning on television in not only in the state of Washington, but on a talk show called Liisa, where, uh, the three
00:48:07
of them were on the show and saying, "Our father is innocent. We're convinced of it." And they were so convincing that
00:48:14
I thought to myself, could they be right? Right? Could Could they be right? And keep in mind, as a journalist, you
00:48:21
don't begin an interview with a suspected killer and say, "Jerry, look, I know you did it. The evidence is
00:48:27
irrefutable. You murdered your wife. You tried to manipulate people. You are a killer." You don't do that,
00:48:34
>> right? >> You want to get into their mind. You want to This is a This is a a journey
00:48:38
you're going to take with them. And so, the initial parts of these interviews are always friendly. I want to hear
00:48:44
their story and I do because I want to see can he convince me. And so we met over and over again to talk about his
00:48:51
relationship, how they met, their life together, their ups and downs, the evidence, and he was open to any
00:48:59
question that I wanted to ask. And that's what a journalist dreams of. [Music] >> How did you first meet Lee,
00:49:10
>> Peter? As I recall it, uh, I was stationed in Vietnam at Bentoule Air Base, which was down in the Meong Delta.
00:49:18
And I had been there for several months, it seems. And I I'm almost convinced it
00:49:24
was on New Year's Day of 1970 that I encountered this, the most gorgeous creature I'd ever laid eyes on
00:49:32
in my life. And for me, it was just love at first sight. When you speak of Lee, I
00:49:39
mean, your eyes really brighten. You have a smile on your face. >> Sounds like a sounds like a Disney
00:49:45
movie, but it's more like a Hitchcock film, right? >> Like a Hallmark film. Yeah. It's But
00:49:50
again, for our audience listening to this, that gentle manner he has now. He sounds like a romantic and u and he's in
00:49:59
Vietnam. He was serving our country. And when you see a picture of them back in the day, there she's beautiful. He's a
00:50:05
very handsome man, an authoritative figure to her and um probably seemed like a a match made in heaven for the
00:50:13
two of them. >> Jerry sounds like a light-hearted teenager in love when he talks about
00:50:18
Lee. Do you think that was real or smoke and mirrors? >> Uh a communications professor of mine in
00:50:25
college once told me, he said, "Uh, Peter, words don't have meaning, people have meaning."
00:50:33
Just the thought of her still warms your heart. >> Absolutely. She's still very much a part
00:50:37
of my life. There's I don't think there's a day that goes by that I don't think about her and and think about her
00:50:43
warmly and affectionately. And you know, I still wish that she was here to um be
00:50:50
a part of my life and and and me to be a part of hers and to enjoy our grandchildren and and and look at our
00:50:58
children and how they've grown and developed into such fine young people. So, it's been a big loss for us all.
00:51:05
>> You miss her? >> Absolutely. I'd give anything if I could have her back right now.
00:51:13
>> My goodness. Um, yeah. So, he thinks about her warmly and affectionately. He didn't even say he missed her until you
00:51:21
asked him. >> He's speaking these words, but sitting across from him, he doesn't seem, in my
00:51:29
opinion, to mean them. He has this soft presentation. I do miss her, Peter. And he and and but it the the the emotion is
00:51:39
not there. >> So just before her death, how would you describe their relationship?
00:51:46
>> From outside appearances, here is a very successful pharmaceutical salesman. Lee
00:51:52
is the mother of three beautiful children, two girls and a boy. They live uh in a lovely suburban neighborhood.
00:52:01
But according to two of Lee's friends, she was talking about divorcing Jerry. Look, after her death, investigators
00:52:08
found legal separation papers in their bedroom. Right. Friends say that the marriage was near a breaking point. Lee
00:52:15
was miserable. She feared him. Uh Lee's friends, she had a couple who testified in the course of these trials, said that
00:52:24
uh he was a absolute uh control freak with her, that he dominated her in this relationship. Every day she had to lay
00:52:33
out his socks he was going to wear that day on the bed in a certain way. If she didn't, he got very angry with her.
00:52:40
These friends say according to Lee, he was becoming physically abusive, that he had struck her a number of times. they
00:52:47
would see her wearing sunglasses and ask her to take them off and they'd see a black eye or bruising and and ask about
00:52:54
it and he'd say, "Well, I didn't do what he wanted last night." So, um there's a
00:53:00
belief that there was escalating violence toward Lee uh prior to this terrible, terrible murder.
00:53:09
>> And Jerry, you know, there are people who are so skeptical of you, they don't
00:53:13
think what you just said is genuine. What do you say to those people? >> It's hard to answer somebody like that
00:53:21
because they've come to that belief for reasons that I can't understand or explain myself. To the best of my
00:53:29
knowledge, everyone who actually knows me, Jerry Jones, as a person knows that I'm absolutely incapable of murdering
00:53:38
anyone and certainly not Lee. [Music] This is what Jerry Jones says happened on the night of December 3rd, 1988. He
00:53:57
and his wife, Lee, were home with their four-year-old son, Thomas, watching television. Their oldest daughter, Kim,
00:54:04
had moved out, and their middle child, Beth, was at a party. Jerry says Lee put Thomas to sleep in his basement bedroom
00:54:11
and then went upstairs to a hallway bathroom to take a bath. Jerry says he then went across the hall to their
00:54:18
primary bathroom to take a shower. He says the water was running when he heard Lee scream.
00:54:25
>> I heard this horrible scream and I just I'd never heard anything like that before in my entire life. I was
00:54:34
just I was petrified just just from the scream. >> One loud piercing scream. >> One loud piercing scream
00:54:42
that and that's what I heard. And and I froze for a second or two or three. And >> the floor plan of the house where your
00:54:51
shower was running >> Mhm. >> and where her bath was running, there's a common wall there.
00:54:56
>> Yes. >> She was in the fight of her life. >> Yes. >> She's a strong woman. and the amount of
00:55:01
the just the volume of that battle, the thumping around that was going on in there. Didn't you hear any of that,
00:55:08
>> Peter? I did not. No, >> had I heard it, I certainly would have run to her aid sooner than that. Uh,
00:55:16
>> and you understand how for some people that's hard to believe. >> Well, you know, I I don't know if it's
00:55:21
pos I'm I'm going to say this. It might be possible to do a reenactment. You and your producer Anthony Batson
00:55:32
actually did do an experiment in that house. Tell us about that. >> I was in one bathroom and Anthony Batson
00:55:39
was in the other. Right. We could talk to each other as I'm talking to you right now and hear every word. I took
00:55:46
out like a dime and I dropped it on the bathtubing. You could hear it as if we're both in
00:55:52
the same room. It is impossible for this battle to have gone on. Impossible. and
00:56:00
not hear it. Um, I'm telling you the amount of noise that you could hear through that common wall. It's almost
00:56:07
like as we are speaking right now and his story is just ridiculous. >> But Jones kept insisting to you that he
00:56:16
only heard one story and then ran toward the bathroom and on the way he bumped into a man with a knife.
00:56:26
>> This is happening so quickly, so fast. you start perceiving that something is
00:56:31
coming out. And as I'm moving closer to the doorway, you you can see more and more. And it's a knife that my my
00:56:42
vision, my focus, my attention was just riveted. It's a knife. And I'm continuing forward. And this person,
00:56:51
it's just a figure is con moving. and we just more or less meet in the doorway and collide right there in the doorway
00:57:00
to the bathroom. I'm not thinking that I need to deflect that knife. That never entered my mind. It's just a the fact
00:57:07
that it happened was just a reflex action. You see a knife and my hand went in the direction of that knife and
00:57:15
dislodged it from his hand and in the process I suffered some cuts. Let's talk about those cuts on Jerry's
00:57:24
hand. Um, he says he was defending himself, but the prosecutor has a a different story, right?
00:57:31
>> Absolutely. The prosecution and their forensic expert says the wounds that that jury has are consistent with cuts.
00:57:38
While you're you're you're stabbing or cutting someone with a knife, you've gotten that knife bloody from from your
00:57:46
victim. And blood is a very slippery substance. And this is something that that has occurred in a number of cases
00:57:53
that I have covered where someone has used a knife, particularly in murders of rage where they stab multiple times, is
00:58:01
that the hand will slide down the handle onto the blade. And so if you're holding
00:58:09
it like, you know, try to imagine now you're holding a a knife handle with the blade below your fist and it slides
00:58:16
down. where you get the cut is on the inside of the upper parts of your fingers. That's where his cuts were,
00:58:23
>> right? So, he's gets cut. He's bumps into this guy. This is what Joan says happened next.
00:58:30
>> In the process of the collision, I was forced back and I bumped my head against
00:58:35
the wall and fell to the floor. I saw stars. I I'm convinced that I did not lose consciousness, but I saw stars
00:58:46
and I was dazed. And uh I think I was not down for more than a second or two. And when I got up,
00:58:55
there was nobody in the hallway any longer. >> He saw stars. Was there any evidence that he had been
00:59:04
knocked out? >> No. And if he saw stars, that was only because he stepped outside and looked up
00:59:09
into the night sky. Uh, that again is another ridiculous story. There's no evidence of any concussion. There was no
00:59:18
bump on his head, no bruise, nothing whatsoever to support this. This is someone who is um making a story up. I
00:59:30
immediately went into the bathroom and I encountered uh the most horrible situation I've ever seen in my life. I I
00:59:40
I could see blood on her body and she is struggling. She's trying to push with her feet back into
00:59:51
the corner of the bathtub. She's throwing her hands about in front of her as if fighting off an attacker.
01:00:03
Uh the closer I got to her, I I I reached the side of the tub and I reached in almost immediately and I
01:00:11
said, "My godly, what happened?" And in the process of doing that, um, I was reaching in to try to lift her to me.
01:00:22
And my feet literally just flew out from under me. >> Did she speak to you? >> She was trying to speak. I'm convinced
01:00:31
of that. Her her jaw would fall open as as if she was trying to speak and then it would snap shut
01:00:40
just repeatedly like that. But I can recall this this chattering sound of her teeth.
01:00:47
It's most under the circumstances. I mean, it's it's just like it's a crescendo of noise and yet it's just the
01:00:59
chattering of teeth. >> That chattering sound he makes with his teeth made me think of Hannibal Lectar
01:01:06
in Silence of the Lambs. Do you recall what you were thinking in that moment? >> Takes a lot to shock me and freak me
01:01:14
out. I was completely freaked out. >> It sent a chill down my spine and it takes a lot to do that.
01:01:20
>> Carrie, help me out here cuz this this is where a lot of people it doesn't make
01:01:24
sense. >> You're a bright, articulate man. You've had military training. >> Why haven't you gone to that phone and
01:01:31
dialed 911? >> I don't have a good answer for you, Peter. Had I to do it over again and had
01:01:39
I been completely in control of my faculties, that certainly is what I would have done first and foremost.
01:01:46
>> Did you to just lose it? >> Yes. Yes. That's that's what happened. That's the
01:01:54
truth. That's the way it happened. had you come to my door that day and had you said, "Jerry, there's going to be an
01:02:02
emergency in the neighborhood tonight and we need somebody who can do the right thing under pressure." I
01:02:12
would have said, "Peter, I'm your man. I can do it." when it happened in my old home
01:02:22
and when my when my wife needed me the most, I couldn't do it. I couldn't help her.
01:02:35
Watching this clip, I literally leaned into the monitor to see if there were any tears coming out of his eyes. There
01:02:43
was not a single tear. He's crying. It's so dramatic. Not a single tear. >> Completely manipulative,
01:02:53
a completely disingenuous. Um, disgusting. >> Jerry Jones says that instead of calling
01:03:02
911, he decided to take matters into his own hands and tried to wrestle his bloody wife out of the bathtub. Then
01:03:11
things got even more complicated, he says, when their four-year-old son, Thomas, woke up, climbed the stairs, and
01:03:18
walked in on what must have been a terrifying scene. >> And Thomas comes into the room. And
01:03:27
Thomas, you've got to go back to bed. Your mom's hurt. I'm trying to help her. I've got to call 911. Please go back to
01:03:35
bed. and he very dutifully turns and and leaves. >> What happens then? >> Well, I resume my efforts to get Lee out
01:03:45
of the tub. And again, every time I I reach in and grasp her, she slips out of my hands. And and after two or three
01:03:54
additional uh attempts in this direction, I I'm just so frustrated. I I I don't give up, but I I hear Thomas
01:04:04
calling for me downstairs. He's scared. He knows something has happened. He's apprehensive.
01:04:11
I run down to him. >> Jerry says he decided to put on his boots and take Thomas to a neighbor's
01:04:19
house. >> The thought that enters my mind and controls what I do next is I've got to
01:04:28
get Thomas to a safe place. >> At this point, is Lee still alive? At this point, I think she is
01:04:37
completely non-animated, probably alive, but her last breath is in her at this point in time.
01:04:53
Um, this is several minutes later, 3 5 minutes, and life is I mean, when I first
01:05:02
encountered her, she's still struggling. And this quickly with within 3 to 5 minutes, she's at the point where if
01:05:10
she's breathing at all, it's very shallow, very sporadic. Um, not much life left.
01:05:23
That just takes my breath away every time I hear it. He is calmly sitting there telling you that with precious
01:05:30
minutes ticking by, he has decided to leave his dying wife and take his son next door. Why didn't he just call the
01:05:38
neighbor and ask him to come get Thomas and then call 911? >> You know, the the thought is is that
01:05:44
that would have made covering up this murder much harder. If the if the neighbor had come over to get Thomas,
01:05:50
right, he might have insisted on entering the house. He might have and calling 911 from there, maybe he would
01:05:56
have spoken to Lee. Maybe she would have cried out if she realized another man was in the house
01:06:01
>> and and and maybe he would have attempted to try to help save her. It would just mess up what he had set in
01:06:08
motion and likely lead to his arrest. >> Right. Right. This next clip really stood out to me.
01:06:16
You pushed him hard and he just smiled and once again calmly said some of the most shocking things I have ever heard.
01:06:25
>> You know, there are some who believe you took your son over to your neighbor so
01:06:30
you could go back and finish off late. >> Well, that has never been expressed in those
01:06:38
exact words. I I would say this that while I've in the Air Force I was never really trained to kill anybody, I I have
01:06:49
had some training in self-defense techniques and and there was a brief period when I went to a school in
01:06:57
Florida prior to going to Vietnam where they they taught us some rudimentary techniques for attacking another person.
01:07:06
some basic training >> w with a knife. Some some basic training. Um if if I were going to kill Lee or you or
01:07:19
anyone else and I I had an opportunity to pick my time and my place, I would just cut your throat. I I know that
01:07:29
there is a jugular vein there. I know approximately where it's located. And if and that would be very silent. There
01:07:36
wouldn't be a scream. Uh if if you did get that jugular vein, the the fight would be out of the
01:07:44
individual within seconds. And >> the allegation is this was a crime of passion, of hatred, and that if you did
01:07:53
it that these wolves were done in such anger >> to punish, to inflict a cruel death.
01:08:01
>> Mhm. That there was no anger and there was there was none of that. >> At best, your behavior at this point has
01:08:12
been bizarre. You agree with that? >> I would agree with that. Yes. >> And your explanation
01:08:21
for this bizarre behavior is what? >> I was in shock. I was scared. I'd never encountered anything like that
01:08:31
before in my entire life. I wish I had done the right thing. I wish I'd done the
01:08:40
things that would have been in Lee's best interest. I I look back I had I called immediately
01:08:48
it could have made a difference. Others though who medical experts who have examined the autopsy report have told me
01:08:59
that it probably wouldn't have made a difference. >> Those of us who've been through military
01:09:06
style first aid training and I've done that twice now. pack, wrap, elevate. You pack these wounds quickly in that room
01:09:16
with with toilet paper with if there's Kleenex in there, you put them inside all the wounds. It stops the bleeding.
01:09:22
You use your clothing, use towels to wrap if he was and and she had none of that on her. You know, when the
01:09:29
authorities arrived, she didn't have um evidence that he was stop he was trying to stop the bleeding.
01:09:35
>> Oh, that's so interesting. And that's the part of his story that just drives me crazy is that there should have been
01:09:42
evidence of him doing everything he could to stop this bleeding and there was none. And the and the truth is is
01:09:49
that through their investigation if authorities believe that he took at least 6 minutes from the time he
01:09:56
discovered put quotes around that her body before he called 911. 6 minutes passed.
01:10:03
>> I did not realize that. That is truly stunning. And speaking of stunning evidence, let's get to that 911 call.
01:10:12
>> 911, what do you have? >> Hurry. Uh, my wife and I >> Let me give you a dispatch, sir. Hurry,
01:10:18
please. >> A dispatch. >> Yes, my wife. >> What's the address? >> 9 um 615. Um uh
01:10:31
190 160 9th place. Sorry, please. >> Okay. What? 615 169th place. >> Say again. >> No, you repeat it to me, sir.
01:10:42
>> 6151 169th. Hurry. >> He's given this operator in the course of this two different addresses. They
01:10:53
can't find the house. Um, this is I've never heard of this. You know, I've covered Judy, you too. We've covered
01:11:01
dozens and dozens of murder cases. How many 911 calls I've heard, I've never heard of somebody not knowing where
01:11:07
they're where they live and making this kind of mistake. That just feels um like
01:11:12
a manipulation. >> The dispatchers were confused because they couldn't find Jerry in the phone
01:11:20
book. The ambulance was having trouble finding his house and he kept walking away from the phone. And in that time,
01:11:27
the dispatchers realized that he had given them the wrong address. >> All right, sir. You're going to have
01:11:36
>> down the road. >> You're going to have to help me because we have a conflict with your address.
01:11:40
Please give me your address again. What is your address? >> Let me go look. I'll write down.
01:11:46
>> He's going to go look. This is the most uncooperative trauma victim I've ever had.
01:11:57
>> The most uncooperative trauma victim I've ever had. Jerry walked away from the phone a fourth time for about 20
01:12:04
seconds and then returned with a new address. Okay, Peter. All I can say is what the
01:12:11
fudge. >> I don't buy it. The prosecutor said um he believed that that Jerry was stalling
01:12:19
to make sure that Lee was dead. Le let's listen to you uh ask him about that. >> The prosecution
01:12:26
alleges that this was part of your diabolical plot >> that you were letting bleed to death.
01:12:34
You didn't want the aid car to get there right away. >> And if that were the case, I would have
01:12:39
just waited and waited and I might still be waiting. I may never have called 911
01:12:44
and I would have just I would have made up a story. Well, I didn't think about calling 911 or I I don't know what I
01:12:53
would have done. I'm not good at making up these stories, unfortunately or fortunately, whatever the case might be.
01:13:02
>> Well, he's right about one thing. He is not good at making up stories. He could have transported her body
01:13:10
somewhere, but the fact that Thomas walked in on the scene screwed up. If that was his plan, screwed everything
01:13:15
up. He then had to call 911 because or eliminate his own son. And he'd made a decision obviously not to do that. And
01:13:24
so this to me is a meticulous plan by someone who has this controlling personality that goes ary and then he
01:13:34
tried to tried to compensate with with delaying tactics and everything else. But Thomas walking in on that scene I
01:13:42
believe just messed everything up. >> So a little over 14 minutes have elapsed from the time Jerry dialed 911 to the
01:13:51
moment help arrived. Lee was pronounced dead on the scene with no CPR even attempted and Jerry was arrested that
01:13:59
very night. In 1989, Jerry Jones faced a jury of his peers. They found him guilty
01:14:06
of first-degree murder and he was sentenced to 25 years in prison. In 1998, just over 10 years after Lee was
01:14:14
murdered, a judge set aside Jerry's conviction, ruling that in the first trial, Jerry's lawyer should have been
01:14:22
able to present evidence about a possible alternate suspect, a 15-year-old boy who lived in the
01:14:30
neighborhood named Daniel Busby. [Music] Who is Daniel Busby? >> My knowledge of him on a firsthand basis
01:14:48
is of a obnoxious teenage boy who lived in our neighborhood. I think I first heard his
01:14:58
name mentioned probably in the spring of 1988. As the year progressed, I heard the name
01:15:09
mentioned more and more frequently, usually in a negative uh connotation. Um Lee particularly
01:15:20
uh didn't like him. And saying that of of Lee is saying a lot because I don't think I would have to really really
01:15:30
search my memory to give you the name of anyone else that Lee did not like. >> So, a 15-year-old snuck into his house
01:15:41
and sliced up his wife. What evidence is there of that? >> There's no evidence whatsoever of that.
01:15:48
There's no evidence of an intruder. There is no fingerprints in that bathroom. There is no DNA. Uh there are
01:15:57
no eyewitnesses. Um it's simply he would have had to have levitated into that house and committed
01:16:04
this murder. And think about this. A 15-year-old comes in to do this murder, but he he would have been aware
01:16:13
of Jerry in the other sha in in the other because of that common wall that you can hear anything that Jerry was in
01:16:19
the house in the other room and he's committing this vicious horrible physical battle. It's it's just simply
01:16:27
ridiculous. And this poor kid um Busby uh endured these accusations over the years. He gets reported over and over in
01:16:38
the papers. Just destroyed his life. No evidence whatsoever. And I I find that story uh preposterous.
01:16:46
>> Yes, preposterous is a good word. Busby also had an alibi. His mother said he
01:16:51
was at home with her that night. So, what evidence was there to justify a second trial?
01:16:58
>> Well, uh there are letters. First off, it seems that Busby was obsessed with Jerry and Lee's youngest daughter, Beth.
01:17:06
And it seems he may have also been obsessed with Lee. And he would be a bit of a pest around the house. He liked to
01:17:14
drop by. And and I know that Lee had expressed to a friend that that that he kind of creeped her out a bit the way he
01:17:22
would stare at her in a in sort of a longing way. And then there's this crazy story about
01:17:29
the fact that the four-year-old Thomas, who was in bed downstairs from where uh the murder was, that he heard somebody
01:17:38
growl. And uh and that woke him up. And apparently the only person who ever growled at four-year-old Thomas was this
01:17:47
Busby character. So, it's the letters, the obsession with Lee and Beth, and this one growl that Thomas heard. That's
01:17:55
the evidence that he has. So, as we know, Jerry was found guilty a second time. His conviction was
01:18:04
reinstated and his sentence remained the same. So, they didn't re-sentence him. And just when you thought this case was
01:18:12
over, you get a call that a judge decided jury still hadn't gotten a fair trial. So, he was getting a third. And
01:18:19
he was once again released and wanted to talk to you. >> And this third trial, what are you going
01:18:26
to be able to bring in to this courtroom that you haven't been able to do in the
01:18:31
past? Well, we'll be allowed to uh bring in the fact that Danny Busby has a 16year history of violence against
01:18:40
women, both psychological and physical attacks on every woman he's ever had a relationship with. Uh I think we're
01:18:51
going to be allowed to paint him as the monster that he is. And I believe the evidence will convince the jury that he
01:18:59
indeed is the person responsible for Lee's death. >> Why is Danny Busby's conduct after Lee's
01:19:06
murder relevant to the murder itself? >> Because it it's a pattern of behavior. So Jerry acting as his own attorney
01:19:15
actually called Daniel Busby to the witness stand and questioned him about all that same stuff that they went over
01:19:23
in the second trial, the letters to Lee, the the growl, whatever, but also about
01:19:29
his record with women, what he did to women as an adult. >> Well, Busby was not a cooperating
01:19:37
witness. He was annoyed. Uh this is the man who who had ruined his life in many ways by getting his name into the public
01:19:46
for a crime that authorities believed he did not commit or have anything to do with it.
01:19:53
The police and the prosecutor says there's no evidence against Danny Busby. The jury set aside Danny Busby in their
01:20:00
deliberations immediately saying there's no evidence he did the crime. If he didn't do it and you didn't do it, who
01:20:07
had the motive, the reason to murder Lee? >> Well, it's no third mysterious person.
01:20:14
Either I did it or Danny Busby did it. Obviously, 36 jurors have come to the conclusion for reasons I can't explain
01:20:23
that I did it. But I can look you or anyone else in the eye and tell you I did not murder my wife. And all I can
01:20:31
ask you or these jurors, they they saw the evidence in the courtroom, but I don't know, look at it in a little more
01:20:40
depth. What on earth is required to prove reasonable doubt? >> You know what's interesting? The judge
01:20:50
even scolded him after he was convicted and sentenced for dragging Daniel Busby repeatedly through the mud for nearly 17
01:21:00
years. And the jury felt he owed Daniel Busby an apology. >> Do you owe Danny Busby an apology?
01:21:09
>> No. Danny Busby cannot look me in the eye and ask me for an apology. He knows what he did. He
01:21:18
knows who he is. He knows that he murdered Lee Jones following the second trial. He became
01:21:28
emboldened and he has told several people, "I did it and I'll do it again." He has told several people, you know,
01:21:41
they have the wrong guy in prison because I did it. He thinks and I believe he knows in his
01:21:51
mind that he has gotten away with murder and that he can say whatever he wants to
01:21:57
say and and he has told people that he murdered my wife. >> Okay, so for the record that is
01:22:05
absolutely untrue. Daniel Busby testified under oath that he never told anyone that he killed Lee and no one has
01:22:12
ever testified that he did tell them he killed Lee. when you listen to him, um, he has a gentle sound. When you look at
01:22:21
him, when you're talking to him, he has a a gentle face. But behind that, to me,
01:22:26
it's a mask. Behind that is is a is a coldhearted uh killer and and one who deserved this
01:22:35
uh this verdict of guilt. I think justice was served. It took three bites of the apple to have it happen, but he
01:22:43
is a man who murdered his wife. I have no doubt of that. >> No doubt. So, I love that you asked
01:22:50
Jerry at the end of the interview if he was going to try for a fourth trial, and
01:22:56
his answer just made me laugh out loud. >> I'm not interested in a fourth trial.
01:23:03
I'll do the ballots of the three years I have on my sentence. When I'm released,
01:23:09
I will move to Southeast Asia. I will work with orphans. I will do what I can to keep young
01:23:19
ladies out of the sex trade. And I will work with those who are disabled as a result of the Vietnam War.
01:23:30
>> Oh my god, I can't take it. I will work with orphans, keep ladies out of sex trade, save the whales, feed the hungry.
01:23:37
Holy cow. >> Yeah. and he lives off of a country road near u Arlington, Washington today in a
01:23:45
in a small house. He never went to Southeast Asia. He never helped ladies out of the sex trade. He didn't do any
01:23:52
of those things. Well, Peter, this case is so fascinating from start to finish, and your
01:24:02
interviews are just a masterclass in how to question a killer. I am so grateful that you took the time to join us on
01:24:09
this podcast. >> Well, this was your idea, this wonderful podcast, and I think it's fascinating to
01:24:15
try to get into the minds of these killers, which is a very frightening place to be.
01:24:21
[Music] >> On the next episode of Killer Conversation, Aaron Morardi will join me
01:24:27
to discuss Brian Stewart, also known as Rick Valentini, my first killer. He's a guy who changed his name illegally, lied
01:24:35
about who he was, and murdered his 32-year-old girlfriend, Jaime Ley. >> You're not really Brian Stewart at all,
01:24:44
are you? >> To me, I am, >> but not legally, are you? >> Well, legally, I'm not anything. That's
01:24:51
the problem. >> You're Rick Valentini. [Music] 48 hours Killer Conversation is hosted
01:25:02
and produced by me, Judy Ryback. Our story editor is Mora Walls. Alan Pang oversees recording, mixing, and sound
01:25:11
design, factchecking, and additional production support from Rebecca Laflam. And special thanks to 48 hours executive
01:25:19
producer Judy Tyiggard and Paramount Podcast Vice President Megan Marcus. Follow and listen to Killer Conversation
01:25:27
on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. If you liked this episode, please rate and review on Apple
01:25:34
Podcasts or Spotify. Tune in next Tuesday for an allnew episode of Killer Conversation. Follow Killer Conversation
01:25:42
on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. This is a wonderful, bubbly, confident,
01:26:08
independent woman and she's missing. >> Jamie Ley disappeared. Doesn't make any sense. She's a college graduate from
01:26:17
University of Michigan, respected within her community. People of her background
01:26:22
and stature don't just come up missing for 10 weeks and nobody hears from them. >> How can one of my best friends have been
01:26:29
missing for 10 weeks? How did it come to this? That she could be gone so long and
01:26:32
nobody reported it. I couldn't believe that it had been that long that nobody had noticed. It was absolute craziness.
01:26:42
Well, Phoenix in the metropolitan area is the sixth largest city in the country. It's it's a big valley and it's
01:26:47
surrounded by desert on all four sides. I believe Jaime Lady came to Arizona to establish her own identity.
01:26:55
>> Jaime was a very private person. She kept to herself. She wasn't close with her family.
01:27:00
>> She just kind of had a don't ask me about my parents kind of thing. >> So, the only person that saw her on a
01:27:07
daily basis was her living boyfriend, Brian Stewart. Jaime and I dated for nearly 3 years. She's always refused to
01:27:15
talk about her past or her family. Every time that Jaime saw her parents, she was
01:27:20
terrified. >> It was a very different case than just about everything else that we work.
01:27:29
>> There was no blood. There was no body. There was no evidence of a crime scene. There's no smoking gun
01:27:37
in this case, but there is a lot of burning matchsticks. >> Jaime's lost. We don't know where she is, and it's
01:27:47
really sad. >> She was a good person, and she didn't deserve this. >> I believe Jaime was murdered because
01:27:54
there's no clear explanation as to where she is now, what happened to her, and why.
01:27:59
>> Jamie Liidy is alive. She took $100,000 of daddy's money and she left the state
01:28:05
of Arizona. >> He's a very convincing liar. >> Bring it on. I know she's alive. >> I'm Aaron Morardi. Tonight on 48 hours,
01:28:23
the stranger beside me. [Music] [Music] When Jaime Leod disappeared in March of 2010, none of her closest friends
01:28:56
noticed for weeks. The truth is, Jaime had been fading from their lives for nearly 2 years.
01:29:04
>> If your friend stops making an effort, you kind of stop, too. But I never thought Jaime would have been the one to
01:29:10
stop making an effort. It was completely out of character for the sweet California girl they all met
01:29:17
as freshman at the University of Michigan. She was a good friend. We were a support network for each other.
01:29:24
>> Gwennneth Newman, Sheila Dubes, and Jennifer Langoot say they quickly formed a lasting bond with Jamie.
01:29:31
>> It's kind of like we had this rock. We had this family of of friends that we were so connected with. And I remember
01:29:36
leaving Michigan. And it was just so reassuring that you're just a phone call away from feeling like you belong
01:29:41
somewhere again. >> They call themselves the 516 girls, referring to the address of a house they
01:29:48
shared in Ann Arbor their senior year and where they were passionate supporters of Michigan's Big 10 football
01:29:55
team. >> We were obsessed with UM football. >> No one was a greater booster than Jamie.
01:30:04
I think just to I I always picture her in my mind on football Saturdays, you know, charging out to the stadium.
01:30:11
>> Sheila says that she and Jamie had a special connection. >> We were both from immigrant families
01:30:17
>> and both were under heavy pressure to succeed. >> I think our fathers were kind of the
01:30:22
same. We they put a lot of pressure on us to do really well in school, but I think she just wanted to make it on her
01:30:27
own. >> Vonnie and Jimmy Lee came to the US from Thailand in search of a better life.
01:30:33
They admit they pushed Jamie to go to medical school. >> You think that because you were pushing
01:30:40
her to go back to school, she might have pulled away a bit? >> She said she's a big girl.
01:30:47
>> After graduation, Jamie landed in Phoenix, Arizona. The Big Valley was booming, the perfect place to blend in
01:30:56
and make her own way. She eventually found a highpaying job selling medical supplies. And while it consumed her
01:31:04
time, she managed to maintain her now longd distance friendships. >> We emailed each other a lot. Even though
01:31:11
we all ended up in different locations, I think we still looked to each other for support.
01:31:16
[Music] The weddings were the big thing that kind of kept us together. But far away in Arizona, Jamie was
01:31:27
lonely. So she joined a local University of Michigan alum club where she found friends who shared her deep love of
01:31:34
Michigan football. Marina Buffa was the group's president. >> She was enthusiastic, but still she was
01:31:44
reserved and quiet. >> But when she caught the eye of a handsome young fellow Michigan fan,
01:31:51
Jamie found romance. >> She was hot. I mean, I how else do you put it? >> Brian Stewart says the attraction was
01:32:00
immediate. >> She had a really good smile and and really got enthusiastic about the
01:32:05
football games and would jump up and cheer and would sing with the fight song. [Applause]
01:32:15
>> They started dating in the fall of 2007. About a year later, Brian moved into the
01:32:21
home that Jaime owned in the trendy Phoenix suburb of Chandler. She was the bread winner, making well over $100,000
01:32:30
a year. Brian, a personal trainer, made much less. Did she pay most of the bills?
01:32:36
>> Most of the big ones, yeah. But it's not like I was dependent upon her. >> Did you love Jamie?
01:32:44
>> I still love Jamie. You know, I just want Jamie to be happy. It's hard because I don't know if Jaime knows what
01:32:50
what it takes to make her happy. >> In August 2009, Jaime suffered a crushing setback when the economy took a
01:32:59
big downturn, she lost the thing she valued most, her highpowered job. >> Her career had been going so well for so
01:33:07
long, and I think this was a a pretty major blow to her. >> She searched for months in Arizona,
01:33:13
Florida, New Jersey, but Jaime couldn't find another job. When the real estate crash hit Chandler and her property
01:33:21
value plunged, Brian says she became despondent and even more withdrawn. >> You know, it was like when it rains it
01:33:29
pours. For Jamie, it was pouring. >> Brian says all of it took a toll on their relationship. So, he rented an
01:33:38
apartment in Scottsdale and planned to break things off. And on the night of March 17th, he said he was going to tell
01:33:45
Jamie he was moving out. Instead, he says she surprised him. >> She came in, asked me to take a week off
01:33:54
from work, and she's like, "We're going to go to Denver. We're going to get a house. You know, I I've got a job offer
01:33:59
up there. Um, it's it's time to go. I want to go. I want to get out of this state." Basically, I I told her, "No,
01:34:05
I'm not leaving Arizona. I'm not going to marry you." Brian admits Jaime was upset and that they argued. Still, he
01:34:13
says that when they went to bed, things had settled down. At the crack of dawn the next morning, Brian left for work.
01:34:21
>> She was laying in bed and I gave her a kiss, told her I loved her, and got in the truck and drove to work.
01:34:31
But later that morning, Brian emailed Marina Buffa and told her a different story
01:34:37
>> and said, "Jamie dumped me. She moved to Colorado." >> Did that surprise you at all?
01:34:42
>> No. I thought, "Good for her." >> Did he seem upset? >> Um, a little bit. He was more angry that
01:34:50
she left him alone. >> At any point, did it even cross your mind that something could have happened
01:34:56
to Jamie? >> No. I knew she had means. If she wants to pick up and leave, good for her.
01:35:02
[Music] >> That day and for weeks to come, no one realized that Jamie had disappeared.
01:35:13
When is the last time you saw Jamie? >> Physically saw her? 3:15 a.m. March 18th, 2010.
01:35:24
[Music] There she is. Jaime Liy had always been fiercely private, but by the summer of
01:35:45
2009, she was practically reclusive, cutting herself off from nearly everyone except her live-in boyfriend, Brian
01:35:54
Stewart. We never had anybody over for dinner. We never had any parties. Nobody came over to watch television or
01:36:06
to just hang out. >> Why not? So I I one of the great mysteries. I don't know. >> Even Jaime's parents say she was more
01:36:18
distant than ever. >> My husband said, "Well, you know, she's a busy girl. Don't bother her."
01:36:25
>> That's why it took nearly 3 months for anyone to notice that Jamie was missing.
01:36:32
I think people were just respecting her privacy in her space and that was unfortunate.
01:36:39
>> Then on May 28th, Marina got a call from Brian. >> He said, "You know, I'm starting to get
01:36:46
worried about Jamie." >> Marina was also worried. So, she and another member of the Michigan Alum Club
01:36:53
called a private investigator, Burke Files. Files did a background check on Brian and found nothing suspicious.
01:37:01
Although one thing did stand out about 10 years earlier at two different addresses in Michigan, Brian had lived
01:37:10
with a man named Rick Wayne Valentini. >> It could be a roommate. It could be a close friend. It could be a relative.
01:37:18
>> And then Burke Files went on to trace Jaime's credit to see where she was now
01:37:24
living and working. He came up empty >> and nothing. There was no activity at all. Nothing.
01:37:33
>> Jaime had disappeared into thin air. So files sounded the alarm. Marina urged
01:37:40
Brian to call Jaime's parents who then called the police. >> I immediately thought something was
01:37:46
wrong. People of her background and stature don't just come up missing for 10 weeks and nobody hears from them.
01:37:53
That afternoon, Chandler police got a warrant to search Jaime's home and started calling Brian, but he seemed to
01:38:01
be ignoring them. >> To me, that was alarming. It just showed a lack of concern.
01:38:07
>> Later that same night, when detectives were searching for Jaime's missing Ford
01:38:12
Escape, they found it in Scottsdale with Brian behind the wheel. >> The detective said, "Well, I'm here in
01:38:19
regards to your girlfriend." and the first thing he did was say, "My ex-girlfriend."
01:38:25
>> The detective felt that Brian was being evasive and seemed nervous. When Brian
01:38:30
asked to use the bathroom in his own apartment, the answer was no. >> We didn't want to risk losing any
01:38:37
evidence if there was some in there. As luck would have it, uh, he had a warrant
01:38:41
for his arrest for driving on a suspended license for a traffic offense. So the detective used that warrant to
01:38:49
take Brian into custody. >> Brian. >> Yes. >> Hey, I'm Nate Moffet. How are you, man?
01:38:58
It's B R Y, right? >> Yes. >> Last name is Stewart. >> Detective Moffett interrogated Brian.
01:39:05
>> How long have you and Jamie been dating? >> Give or take 3 years. >> Okay. When did you guys move in
01:39:10
together? >> Honestly, I don't know. >> Okay. Were you cheating on Jamie at all before?
01:39:16
>> No. >> While Detective Spielman searched Jaime's home for clues. >> Walk me through what happened around
01:39:29
March. >> It was simple really. Um, she hated everything about the state. She wanted out.
01:39:37
Now, she'd been up there for interviews. I suspected that she would get the Denver offer.
01:39:43
>> You know, he's saying she went to Colorado, yet all of her suitcases are there and her passport's there. All
01:39:48
these things that she would need to travel are there at the house. >> But Jaime's wallet and driver's license
01:39:54
were missing. >> I was concerned, but the possibility did exist that, you know, she just left and
01:40:00
she doesn't want to be found. But at Chandler PD, Moffett smelled a rat and started pressing Brian.
01:40:11
>> Did you hurt Jamie? >> Okay. Did you have anything to do with her disappearance?
01:40:18
>> Mm-m. You have nothing to hide. >> No. >> But things just didn't add up for Moffett. There were just too many
01:40:26
inconsistencies. Brian gave a birth date to the arresting officer which didn't match the date on
01:40:34
his Arizona ID. >> I have no freaking clue who's sitting in front of me and it's extremely uneasy
01:40:40
for me as I'm investigating a case of this magnitude. >> Moffett had no idea how right he was
01:40:47
until the next day when Brian was in a jail cell and detectives were searching his apartment.
01:40:55
>> Well, we were searching his new residence. We located a Manila envelope with a Michigan driver's license in the
01:41:01
name of Rick Wayne Valentini. And that picture was Brian Stewart. You're not really Brian Stewart at all, are you?
01:41:18
On the night of May 29th, 2010, as he interrogated Brian Stewart about his missing girlfriend, Jamie Leody,
01:41:27
Detective Moffett knew that Brian wasn't telling the truth. >> I mean, you're talking a woman who's
01:41:33
who's been gone for 2 months now. Um, and I have a person in front of me that has different social security numbers, a
01:41:41
couple different dates of birth. >> You're not really Brian Stewart at all, are you?
01:41:46
>> To me, I am. >> But not legally, are you? >> Well, legally, I'm not anything.
01:41:53
>> Actually, legally, Brian is Rick Wayne Valentini. Remember the roommate that private
01:42:01
investigator Burke Files noticed in Brian Stewart's credit history? Well, there was no roommate, just this guy,
01:42:09
Rick Valentini, who was preparing to change his identity. >> In our modern world with the databases,
01:42:16
you just can't turn on a new name, a new taxpayer ID number, a social security number. You have to age it. You have to
01:42:22
season it. >> In October 2001, when the name Brian Stewart had enough of a credit history,
01:42:30
Rick Valentini disappeared from Michigan. Days later, a man named Brian became a resident of Phoenix.
01:42:40
>> Driving from Michigan to Arizona, that's all I did. Brian Stewart, Brian Stewart,
01:42:45
Brian Stewart, Brian Stewart. I was always saying, listening for Brian Stewart, Brian Stewart, because it's a
01:42:50
new name. >> A new name and a new man. According to Rick, the kind of man he always wanted
01:42:59
to be. and he insists that whether legal or not, he is now Brian Stewart and would only agree to an interview if we
01:43:09
would use that name. >> And if you don't want to accept that, I don't want you around. I don't want you
01:43:14
in my life. >> Why not change your name legally? Why go to the trouble of forging a birth
01:43:19
certificate? >> Well, it it was my understanding that to to change your name legally would take
01:43:24
years. Brian claims he wasn't running from the law, just leaving behind what he describes as a tragic childhood.
01:43:36
Everybody takes their name for granted. Your your name is the very core essence of who you are, of what you are. And you
01:43:47
find out it that it's all a lie. And then you find out that your own father doesn't even know you exist because your
01:43:53
own mother didn't bother to tell him. >> His mother was 18 when he was born. His
01:43:59
real father reportedly walked away. >> He just wasn't loved. Just didn't have love. That's why he loved us cuz we
01:44:08
loved him. >> His aunt Donna says she believes he was physically and emotionally abused.
01:44:14
>> I think the other children were too, but not like him. He always knew there was
01:44:19
something different about him and he didn't know what. >> Do you think that he created this
01:44:25
different name, different persona because he just didn't want to be who he was? >> Exactly. Exactly.
01:44:33
>> But when detectives started looking into Rick Valentini's background, this is
01:44:38
what else they found. Three ex-wives and two daughters. Hello. >> Hi. Is this Cynthia?
01:44:49
>> This is >> Hi, Cynthia. Detective Dave Selvage from Chandler Police Department.
01:44:53
>> One of his exes told Chandler Police she thinks Rick is just a deadbeat dad on
01:44:58
the run. >> He owed, from what I understand, quite a bit of back child support from Wendy,
01:45:05
his first wife. >> His oldest daughter, Amy, was a baby when he left. >> He never called, never talked to me,
01:45:12
never contacted me. When your mom finally told you about your dad, what did she say about him? What kind of guy
01:45:17
he was? >> A really bad guy. A liar. He always told him that he always lied all the time. He
01:45:22
lied about lots of things. >> In Phoenix, his whole life was a lie. He told everyone, including Jamie, that
01:45:32
his parents were killed by a drunk driver. He pretended to be eight years younger than he is and boasted a hero's
01:45:41
military record that was complete fiction. When you talked to Detective Mafet, when
01:45:48
he sat you down, he asked you about your military record and you said you've been
01:45:55
to Iraq and Afghanistan. You hadn't, had you. Mm- >> No, you lied. >> I was >> You lied.
01:46:03
>> Yeah. Rick Valentini aka Brian Stewart was an enlisted man, but he was dishonorably
01:46:14
discharged after going awall and stabbing two military officers in the hand and leg. He served two years in a
01:46:22
military prison. He never mentioned that to anyone either. >> Freeze it. >> You tell a lot of stories though, don't
01:46:31
you? I have a lot of stories to tell. >> But you tell a lot of lies. >> Um, lies mixed in with the truth.
01:46:40
>> Like the lie that ultimately made Jaime Lee trust Brian with her life. [Music]
01:46:49
You never actually went to the University of Michigan, did you? >> No. Mm-m. >> But you let people think you did.
01:46:56
>> Sure. >> Why? It was just uh a tie-in to my home state and it was just part of the the
01:47:04
pride that I had. I've been a Michigan fan since I was a little boy. >> He was right in there and boy, he was a
01:47:13
Michigan man. >> And it wasn't just that fanaticism that conned the alumni group in Phoenix for 4
01:47:20
years. Brian also had a fake diploma. >> He's fooled all of us. We're talking hundreds of people here and 20 or so
01:47:30
board members, many of them attorneys and judges. >> News of Jaime's boyfriend's double life
01:47:38
went viral and made her disappearance even more alarming. >> This doesn't happen to your
01:47:44
>> No, this does not happen to the people you went to college with that you call
01:47:49
your sister. This doesn't happen to your family. You don't have friends who meet
01:47:52
people who have double identities. Did you begin to think that maybe Jamie was dead?
01:48:00
>> Yes. >> And did you think he might have killed her? >> Mhm. >> Did you kill Jamie?
01:48:06
>> No. I've never killed anybody in my life. Not ever. >> Did you two fight that night? Were you
01:48:12
angry with her? >> No. She had told me that uh she was going to be leaving the next day.
01:48:18
>> And where was she going? >> It was my impression, Denver. But detectives who had already
01:48:24
discovered several suitcases in Jaime's home couldn't find any evidence of Jaime
01:48:30
ever leaving for or arriving in Denver. Brian says that's because Jaime didn't want to be found.
01:48:38
>> I taught Jamie how to create a whole new life for herself. That included a new
01:48:47
identification, a whole new persona, a whole new way of looking at things. >> Are you saying that you helped Jamie
01:48:55
change her identity? >> Yeah, I showed her how to do it. The only thing that she ever lived for was
01:49:02
to be free of her family. She wanted to be on her own. >> He's too smart. Why would he have stayed
01:49:08
there for 10 weeks? If he killed her, why wouldn't he have just left? He'd done it before. Why wouldn't he do it
01:49:16
again? >> Isn't it possible that Jaime's doing the same thing that that Brian did? Just
01:49:23
vanished the same way and and no one's been able to track her down. >> Are you asking me today if I believe
01:49:28
that's possible? Absolutely not. I wholeheartedly believe Brian Stewart, Rick Valentini, whoever
01:49:35
you want to call him, murdered Jaime Ley on the night of March 17th. >> But a year and a half after Jaime
01:49:42
disappeared, there is still no body, no blood, no sign of a struggle, no physical evidence of a murder.
01:49:53
>> We just didn't have what you would consider a traditional crime scene, so we went with more of a virtual crime
01:49:58
scene. They started investigating the digital record of Jaime's life, and this little white envelope contains several
01:50:06
pieces of the puzzle. Prosecutor Juan Martinez says it was enough to convince him that Brian Stewart should be charged
01:50:15
with murder. This is a really telling piece of evidence. Oh my gosh. in this many pieces.
01:50:36
In June 2010, Brian Stewart was charged with fraud for forging a new birth certificate and changing his name
01:50:45
illegally. If you think using the name Brian Stewart is fraudulent, hey, we're going to fight it out in
01:50:52
court. >> But while detectives suspected he was responsible for the disappearance and
01:50:58
death of his girlfriend, Jamie Leody, they couldn't charge him with her murder. What do the two of you think
01:51:05
happened that night? >> I think they had a fight. >> But wouldn't there be some sign of that
01:51:10
in her home? >> Not necessarily. I mean, strangulation or suffocation or or anything like that, there's going to
01:51:20
be virtually no blood. >> With no physical evidence, they would have to build a strong circumstantial
01:51:27
case to prove that Jaime was dead and Brian was the one who killed her. We literally dissected all of Jaime's
01:51:37
financial affairs, all of her accounts, all of the transactions, his email, her email.
01:51:44
>> What they saw was a very responsible woman. >> I mean, she was a person that stayed up
01:51:49
on her emails, she returned phone calls, she paid all of her bills on time until
01:51:53
March 17th. Then she didn't do any of those things. For the next three months, detectives realized that the only person
01:52:00
who appeared to be using Jaime's credit cards was Brian Stewart. >> The only transactions on one of Jaime's
01:52:08
accounts were internet purchases and dating websites. >> He used her cards to meet other women.
01:52:15
>> That's right. Basically, he said the same thing. He was a graduate of the University of Michigan. Never been
01:52:21
married. Didn't know if he wanted kids or not. >> That's nervy, isn't it? Yeah, it's
01:52:25
pretty nerdy >> and pretty insensitive too, isn't it? >> Um, >> yeah, >> you know, a little because Well, let me
01:52:36
let me explain. >> You used her credit cards to go on dating sites to meet other women.
01:52:40
>> Well, you know what? Look, Jamie Jamie was leaving. >> But nothing alarmed prosecutor Martinez
01:52:47
more than what detectives found when they searched Brian's apartment in Scottsdale. Her wallet was laying on his
01:52:54
desk. There was a number of her credit cards there on the desk. And then on the back filing cabinet was her personal
01:53:00
telephone that he said she had with her. So was this small white envelope. And when police got a warrant to open it,
01:53:10
they found pieces of cut up ID and credit cards. When they put them together, they had Jamie Lead's driver's
01:53:18
license, her Michigan University alum card, and several credit cards. Why did you cut up her driver's license?
01:53:26
>> I didn't cut them up. >> Brian claims it was Jamie who cut up the cards after she changed her identity and
01:53:33
ran away. But when Chandler police tested the envelope to see who sealed it, the DNA belonged to Brian.
01:53:44
Even when you had that envelope, it still took a year before you brought murder charges against him.
01:53:49
>> We were tying up all the loose ends. Uh when you don't have a body, you have to
01:53:53
be very careful because you only get one chance. >> That chance came when an inmate at the
01:54:00
jail where Brian was being held agreed to testify that Brian had confessed to killing Jamie.
01:54:07
He went to this particular individual and said, "Do you think that they can charge me if they can't find the body?"
01:54:16
>> On March 24th, 2011, a grand jury indicted Brian on charges of seconddegree murder of his girlfriend,
01:54:24
Jaime Lead. He was also charged with fraud for using Jaime's credit cards without her permission. Who is
01:54:33
technically legally on trial here? an individual by the name of Rick Valentini, also known as Brian Stewart.
01:54:41
>> But isn't this a little odd because even through the trial, you're calling him
01:54:45
Brian Stewart. >> That's the name that he preferred. I'll use whatever name he wants to convict
01:54:49
him. >> In October of 2011, Rick Wayne Valentini, aka Brian Stewart, went on trial.
01:55:02
>> State's first witness. The first witness to testify for the state was Andrea Ardsma.
01:55:08
>> What does your husband do for a living? >> He is a professional baseball player.
01:55:12
>> Back in 2010, she and her husband David, then ace pitcher for the Seattle Mariners, were in Scottsdale during the
01:55:20
off season. Andrea worked out at Gold's Gym 5 days a week and her personal trainer was Brian.
01:55:28
>> And did he tell you whether or not he had a girlfriend? >> Yes, he had a girlfriend. And did he
01:55:32
tell you her name? >> Jamie. >> As a result, >> Andrea testified that for months before
01:55:37
Jaime disappeared, Brian had complained about his souring relationship and what he really thought of his girlfriend.
01:55:46
>> Whiny, naggy, [ __ ] uh, sugar mama. Um, nothing nothing positive at all. I don't know if he just thought I was a
01:55:55
good listener or if he really did think that I was stupid and that he could tell
01:55:59
me all these things and nothing would come of it. >> In one of the trials most disturbing
01:56:05
moments, Andrea stood up and reenacted Brian sharing his nickname for Jamie. >> Jamie the gut. Jamie the gut.
01:56:14
>> I'm like, man, like if you hate her so much, just just break up with her. The
01:56:20
jury also heard from Jaime's parents. >> Have you received any emails from her? >> No.
01:56:28
>> Has she shown up at your house? >> No. >> And have you been hiding her just so
01:56:33
that Mr. Stewart Stewart won't find her? >> No. But some of the most significant
01:56:45
testimony revealed that Jaime had found a new job and not in Denver, but right here in Phoenix.
01:56:53
>> She's very excited about her new job and we're looking forward to working together on March 18th.
01:57:00
>> David Bochamp, a lawyer and friend, testified that he helped Jaime negotiate the contract for that job. What's more,
01:57:08
he saw Jaime 2 days before she disappeared and testified that he saw bruises. >> She was exhibiting many, many of the
01:57:18
characteristics of a battered woman and she absolutely broke down. >> On day seven of the state's case,
01:57:28
>> thank you. Please be seated. >> The jailhouse snitch took the stand. >> The whole truth about the truth, so I
01:57:33
hope you got it. >> I do. >> Thank you. At his request, the judge ordered us not to reveal his identity.
01:57:39
He also got a deal for testifying. A 2-year sentence for fraud was reduced to one.
01:57:46
>> He's very agitated talking about how uh the police know that that I killed her,
01:57:50
that uh he he needed to get it off his chest. >> By the time the state rested, prosecutor
01:57:55
Martinez and Detective Nate Moffett were sure they would get a conviction on the
01:58:00
fraudulent schemes charge. But had they convinced the jury that Brian had committed murder,
01:58:07
>> I think a lot of people would have a hard time convicting with nobody, we really had to be careful and listen to
01:58:15
both sides. >> Knowing his life was on the line, Brian was about to do something that would
01:58:21
shock the entire courtroom. Were you expecting the defendant to take the stand? >> I wasn't.
01:58:29
>> Absolutely not. >> But I was glad that he did. [Music] pieces of a driver's license and credit
01:58:53
cards, a closet filled with shoes and purses. several >> the evidence at trial is a daily
01:59:00
reminder of what Jamie Ley's parents have lost. >> So hard every time they mention her
01:59:07
name, it's hurt me so much that I'm thinking that I'm not going to see her anymore then.
01:59:14
>> And as the defense begins, Jaime's mother has one wish. >> The whole time I've been praying that I
01:59:21
hope he take this stand. >> Why? >> Because then they can see through him. Her prayer is granted despite his fifth
01:59:29
amendment right to remain silent and very much against his lawyer and most any lawyer's advice.
01:59:36
>> Stand up. Raise your right hand. >> Brian Stewart boldly and defiantly takes the stand.
01:59:43
>> I am the only human being who knows what happened. I'm the only human being who
01:59:49
knows why things happened, when they happened. What was your relationship like? >> It was, I would say, 95% great.
02:00:03
>> Did Did you argue? >> No, not really. >> He appears confident and relaxed. But
02:00:11
after all, it is his lawyer asking the questions. >> Did you kill Jaime to use her credit
02:00:16
cards? >> Absolutely not. >> Did you have general permission to use her credit cards? Yes.
02:00:24
>> Brian insists he didn't need to steal from Jamie. >> Why do you why do you feel that you had
02:00:29
permission to use the cards? >> Even from our first date, it was literally an instruction to use them.
02:00:37
>> And then he drops a bombshell, claiming that long after Jaime disappeared, she
02:00:43
was still in Phoenix and would visit the house they shared and his new condo when
02:00:49
Brian wasn't around. because I would get back to my condo and things would be moved around or things
02:00:57
would be left behind. >> Okay. Now, how did she get into your into your apartment?
02:01:01
>> She had a key. >> But that's not all. He also claims he continued to communicate with Jamie long
02:01:08
after that morning in March 2010 when she vanished. >> How did she communicate with you?
02:01:15
>> Email and telephone. >> Okay. >> You have told people that if you had a computer, you could find her. I've got a
02:01:21
computer here. You want to try? Got my iPad here. How would you find her? >> I I would have to look on mine. Um
02:01:31
>> I mean, if I got this whole thing set up, could you? I mean, if you >> No, because I need to get into my
02:01:37
computer because there's a special email site that we were working through. You you must know, Brian, that that sounds a
02:01:46
little crazy that you would have given this information to your attorneys and they wouldn't go looking for the one
02:01:52
person who could save you from going to prison for life. >> You know, I I I told them that and I
02:01:59
never heard anything. >> Did you murder Jamie Ley? >> No. Jamie Leudy is a liar.
02:02:05
>> She would just let you go on trial for murder, go to prison for the rest of your life.
02:02:09
>> I don't know. I don't think that I don't think either one of us ever expected it
02:02:13
to get this far. >> Would you be at all surprised if I told you that she was about to walk through
02:02:17
that door? >> No, >> I believe. >> But prosecutor Juan Martinez wasn't buying any of it.
02:02:26
>> You didn't actually talk to her in that condo, did you? >> No. >> You have not seen her at any time and
02:02:31
she hasn't walked in now. Right. >> Right. And she won't walk in because you killed her. Right.
02:02:37
>> Wrong. I don't have anything else. Thank you. >> One day before Thanksgiving 2011, more
02:02:46
than a year and a half after Jaime Leody disappeared, the prosecution and defense
02:02:51
rested. >> All right. >> After presenting two very different stories, it was now up to the jury to decide, and
02:03:04
foreman Leon Le was worried. As we were moving to deliberation, I wondered how difficult of a decision
02:03:14
this is going to be for uh the 12 of us knowing that there's no body. >> But just 4 hours later, the jury
02:03:22
returned with a verdict. >> Did any of you look at him when you walked in? >> No, I did not.
02:03:29
>> No. >> Thank you. Please be seated. Brian Stewart was reassured by deputy sheriffs guarding him.
02:03:39
>> Oh, yeah. They're like, "Yeah, you're you're good." Anytime a jury comes back
02:03:42
that quick. And I was like, "Okay, well, wow. All right. That's pretty good." We, the jury, duly impanled and sworn in
02:03:54
the above entitled action upon our oaths as to count one, seconddegree murder, do
02:03:59
find the defendant guilty. >> Fraudulent. >> Guilty. Do you find >> Jaime's parents were overcome?
02:04:07
>> Are these your true verdicts? So say you want >> guilty. That's all I heard. And I just
02:04:11
>> I lost it. I was so happy. >> Liam panel sworn. >> And then there was more. >> As you count two fraudulent schemes and
02:04:20
artififices do find the defendant guilty. Signed for person. >> Brian Stewart couldn't believe his ears.
02:04:29
I just sat there. >> Like to me, my life was over with. >> I just couldn't understand,
02:04:41
you know? I mean, if I would have killed her, I would have admitted to it. >> Do you think Brian Stewart/Rick
02:04:49
Valentini is a dangerous man? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Absolutely. >> No question in your mind.
02:04:55
>> None. None at all. The first 10 minutes of his testimony, any doubt I had that he was
02:05:04
solely responsible for the murder of Jamie had been sealed at that moment in time.
02:05:10
>> You've told so many stories, it's hard to believe you. >> Let's look at the army. Okay.
02:05:16
>> No, let's look at what happened to Jamie. That's what really matters. >> Jaime took $100,000
02:05:23
and she left the state of Arizona. I've said it for 18 months. I say it now and I'm going to say it for the next 18
02:05:30
years. >> But investigators say there was no money and his story is just another lie.
02:05:40
>> And for her friends and family, [Music] I just feel so bad that we weren't there.
02:05:46
>> The one remaining question may never be answered. Is it hard because you don't really know
02:05:55
where she is? You've never been able to bury her. >> That's right. That's right. I still have
02:06:01
um what they call the receiving blankets of Jamie from the hospital and I I carried it with me all the time.
02:06:12
And I intend to use that blanket to carry her home. It would be fine. [Music] [Music]
02:07:20
Did you kill Jamie? >> No. >> Did you two fight that night? Were you angry with her?
02:07:25
>> No. I've never killed anybody in my life. Not ever. >> Meet Brian Stewart, also known as Rick
02:07:36
Valentini. He was my first killer. What do I mean by that? Well, my name is Judy
02:07:42
Ryback and I'm a longtime 48 Hours producer. Back in 2011, my very first assignment for 48 Hours was to convince
02:07:51
the man with two names to do an interview with Aaron Morardi. He agreed under one condition that we only call
02:08:00
him Brian. >> You're not really Brian Stewart at all, are you? >> To me, I am. >> But not legally, are you?
02:08:08
>> Well, legally, I'm not anything. That's the problem. >> You're Rick Valentini.
02:08:15
>> His legal name was Rick, but we all agreed to call him Brian because he had just been convicted of the secondderee
02:08:22
murder of his 32-year-old girlfriend, Jaime Ley, and we wanted to hear his story even though we knew it was mostly
02:08:29
fiction. Actually, he had run away from a life in Michigan. He changed his name illegally, tricked Jaime into believing
02:08:37
him, and killed her. Our front row seat to this con man's relationship with the truth taught us so much about how the
02:08:46
criminal mind works. Things you don't learn in books. I'm excited to be producing and hosting
02:08:53
48 hours killer conversation. And even more excited that Aaron Morardi is here to talk about her masterclass of an
02:09:01
interview with my first killer, but definitely not hers, Brian Stewart. Welcome, Erin. Thank you so much for
02:09:11
being here today. I so appreciate it. You are the hardest working woman in television, and I know you're taking
02:09:17
this time out to to be with us is is a real gift, >> but it's great, Judy, that you're doing
02:09:23
killer conversation. >> So, tell me how you prepare for these interviews because I know you want to
02:09:28
get at the truth, but that's not easy, right? No, because realize that the defendant in this case probably knows
02:09:35
the case better than anybody if they were there or not there, but they know the facts of the case. Uh, so you have
02:09:42
to go in so prepared. So I think my goal, I think your goal too when you talk to someone is to talk with them
02:09:49
after really at the end of the process, after we've read every court document, spoken to everybody involved with the
02:09:57
case. That's ideal. Uh because otherwise you you can't you don't know whether that person's telling you the truth or
02:10:05
not. >> Right. Right. And we do really do our homework going into these things. >> You have to.
02:10:11
>> Yeah. So you asked Brian Rick, whatever his name is, uh why he agreed to sit down with you, and this is
02:10:19
what he had to say. >> Why are you talking to us today? Um, I guess to put out the truth, you know, I mean,
02:10:36
it it really sounds I don't know how it sounds, but frankly speaking, from 2007 until now, I am the
02:10:45
only human being who knows what happened. I'm the only human being who knows why things happened,
02:10:53
when they happened. >> Well, he's he's telling the truth on one thing. He's the only living person,
02:11:00
>> right, >> who knows what happened. Uh because sadly, at the time we were doing this
02:11:06
interview, um Jamie was still missing. Uh and so there was no one to contradict what he said.
02:11:15
>> Right. Right. He had a a blank canvas to tell his story. Right. So, let's talk
02:11:19
about the backstory of this case. Um, in 2010, uh, Jamie was 32 years old. She went missing from her home in Chandler,
02:11:27
Arizona. Police couldn't find her or her body. Some people thought she might have
02:11:33
picked up and and just disappeared, taken off. But once police got involved, almost everyone believed that she was
02:11:39
dead. Right. >> Right. And one of the sad parts of this story is Jamie was a very private
02:11:44
person. She didn't share a lot even with her close friends. Um so when she first
02:11:50
disappeared, nobody really thought that much about it. Um but then after a few weeks, then they started getting
02:11:58
worried. Um and once it was clear that she was missing, the most obvious person of interest was of course Brian. Um when
02:12:07
the police caught up with him, he was driving her car. He had her IDs. And at trial, the 42year-old
02:12:14
got 54 years behind bars for murder and for fraud, >> right? It's it's really remarkable. Um,
02:12:22
so you do work on a lot of wrongful convictions. How do you know when someone is lying to you?
02:12:29
>> Well, some people are obvious. Uh, they really are. Uh, I just interviewed a an
02:12:35
individual last year who when he talked to me, he contradicted the evidence. I mean, you know, and he knew it. He
02:12:42
didn't even seem to be bothered. But there are other people. Remember, these individuals who are accused of a crime
02:12:48
know the case better than anyone. Uh know the details better than anyone and sometimes can twist it and make you
02:12:56
believe. >> Right. Although in this case it was pretty obvious. >> Yes. Yes, it was. But also because he
02:13:03
contradicted the the evidence as well. So >> Right. Right. the circumstantial evidence was really strong. Um,
02:13:11
>> you yourself, you know, I wasn't the only one. I talked to him after you had talked to him. You spent hours on the
02:13:17
phone with him and in person. Um, did you at first think he was telling the truth or was there a time when you
02:13:24
realized this guy's lying? So, I went into this having already read, you know, everything that was available to me and
02:13:32
and I had spoken to the cops and the prosecutor. So, I kind of knew what the story was, but um yeah, I sent him a
02:13:41
letter and cuz that's what we have to do. We have to send them a letter, set up an account for them to call us. and
02:13:46
he slowly started calling me and uh you know at first it was very cir you know surface conversation and then we started
02:13:54
digging into his case a little bit more and I spent so many hours he I think he called me every day for a while because
02:14:02
he was bored right he was bored and and uh he was testing me and then I went to Phoenix to sit through his entire trial
02:14:11
and I would visit him once a week you know Arpaio Sheriff Arpaio would let me um visit him once a week. And um I
02:14:19
remember the first time I went to visit him, they left me in a room with him. I mean, he was shackled and and there was
02:14:25
someone in the room with us, but I was in there for 4 hours with him and he just told his whole story and I remember
02:14:33
thinking, "Oh, I I I have to go back to the hotel and make notes so I don't forget anything." But then every week I
02:14:39
heard the same thing over and over and over again. So, at some point, I mean, without actually rolling my eyes back in
02:14:46
my head, my eyes were rolling back in my head. >> Kind of sad that someone that smart um
02:14:53
and who could have had a decent life would run cons the way he did. He was a very, very troubled person.
02:15:01
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, let's talk about, you know, who he was before this. Well, we know now that he had, this was actually
02:15:10
a surprising detail, that he had had three ex-wives, I believe, because he was he seemed pretty young to me. I, you
02:15:16
know, in his 40s. Turned out he was a little older than what he said he was, but um three ex-wives. And uh and what
02:15:26
one of his ex-wives said was that he was just running away from paying the debt he had uh for child for child uh
02:15:34
support. >> Support. Yeah. >> But what I think is I mean he was really running not just from the fact he owed
02:15:40
money but from his life because I interviewed uh one of his daughters and um and it was a very sad conversation.
02:15:49
She never heard from him. He had no interest in her life. Uh so he was running away from everything in
02:15:56
Michigan. Uh debt and the people had been in his life in Michigan, >> right? He wanted to start over. Um, so
02:16:05
it wasn't easy for Rick to change his name to Brian illegally. He literally had to make up a whole new person. Um,
02:16:14
but he makes it sound like it was no big deal. >> How long does it take to change your
02:16:20
identity? >> Um, takes a while, doesn't it? >> Year. Year and a half. Yeah. So, I mean,
02:16:27
it it it depends. >> But why not? Why not change your name legally? Just do it legally. Why go to
02:16:34
the trouble of forging a birth certificate? >> Well, it it was my understanding that to
02:16:38
to change your name legally would take years. >> That's actually not true. It It's not
02:16:44
easy, but it doesn't take years. In Michigan and Arizona, it would have only taken four to 6 months. So, what he did
02:16:51
was much harder. So, he changed his identity post 911 when authorities were really trying to clamp down on fake IDs.
02:17:01
Um, and they were really worried about air airport security. He used somebody else's social security
02:17:09
number, forged a new birth certificate, made himself eight years younger. I wish
02:17:14
I could do the same thing, right? Yes. >> Uh, he took in a roommate. I hope people
02:17:20
can see I'm using quotation marks as air quotation marks. Brian Stewart. And about a year later, Brian Stewart, who
02:17:29
shared the same address as Rick, had a credit score, a birth certificate, an other ID, and credit cards. And so, it
02:17:37
wasn't too tough for Rick Valentini to slip into the persona of Brian. >> Right. So, in October 2001, Rick
02:17:47
Valentini disappeared from Michigan and headed to Arizona. When I left Michigan,
02:17:53
driving from Michigan to Arizona, that's all I did. Brian Stewart, Brian Stewart, Brian Stewart, Brian Stewart. I
02:18:00
was always saying, listening for Brian Stewart, Brian Stewart, because it's a new name. The whole point of coming to
02:18:07
Arizona was not to be a burden. I wanted to be my own person. I wanted to be free. I wanted to at some point to go
02:18:16
back to my family on my terms to say it doesn't matter what happened in the past. It doesn't matter
02:18:28
m the mistakes that were made or all this. Look, I'm successful and I've done it and I'm happy and and I've found love
02:18:38
and joy in my life and I've I've I actually help people and you know and I love doing what I do.
02:18:48
>> So, the scary thing is is that anyone who did a background check on Brian Stewart found nothing. He was clean,
02:18:55
right? So, he actually got a job. >> Yeah. He was a personal trainer at Gold's Gym in Scottsdale. And I guess
02:19:03
that's what he meant when he says that he was helping people and that he loved it and he was doing well.
02:19:10
>> Right. Right. And and again, the sad thing is, okay, so you're starting over again and he still couldn't get it
02:19:16
right. Right. He still messed it up. And then he got really cocky and he decided
02:19:22
to pretend to be a graduate of the University of Michigan. >> Yeah. But that fits in. remember when he
02:19:28
said that he could be really successful going to the University of Michigan. Now
02:19:32
remember I went to Ohio State so this is very hard for me to say but that going to the University of Michigan shows that
02:19:39
you are a smart person. It's hard to get in there. It's a great school. So having
02:19:45
that pretending to be a graduate of University of Michigan burnished his image made him look like this smart
02:19:54
accomplished guy and he was from Michigan and and growing up he he loved University of Michigan and so it wasn't
02:20:04
hard to pull that off, >> right? Cuz he's mixing truth and lies together, right?
02:20:10
>> Well, that's what all good liars do. There's always something and we find that all the time.
02:20:15
>> What do you think Jamie saw in Brian Stewart? >> Well, you know, if we're going to be
02:20:22
impartial, I think there's a quirkiness, a kind of a charming personality in a quirky way with with Brian. Um, I think
02:20:32
that she was lonely. Uh, she didn't have family or friends in Arizona. And so he
02:20:37
provided companionship and and he you know he's kind of fun to be with. Um she had a uh a tough
02:20:47
relationship with her parents. Uh they wanted her to be a doctor and she didn't live up to that. So I think she felt she
02:20:55
disappointed them. So she wasn't as close with her parents. So here she is on her own. Um, and you know, you've got
02:21:04
this guy who went to University of Michigan. They have that's what he says. So, she thinks she has something in
02:21:11
common and you know, they're cheering together during all the games. It makes me sad to even think about it. So sad.
02:21:18
Yeah. We called this hour the stranger beside me and it really was. He was the stranger beside her. So by the time
02:21:25
Jaime disappeared, she and Brian were so isolated from just about everyone that it took months for anyone to even notice
02:21:33
that she was gone. [Music] [Music] Brian and Jamie dated for a little over 2 years. And Brian says that sometime in
02:21:51
the summer of 2008, Jaime let him move into her house. >> In an email, Jaime described you as her
02:22:00
trophy boyfriend and and you know, she was the one who was spending all the money. Did that bother you?
02:22:08
>> No, cuz I I never knew that she said that. >> Did she pay most of the bills? >> Most of the big ones? Yeah.
02:22:19
>> She bought two cars, >> right? >> And the other car you drove, >> right? She bought a truck, an SUV.
02:22:27
>> So, she made a lot more money than you did. >> Sure. So, >> was that hard? You were pretty dependent
02:22:31
on her financially. >> Um, >> was that tough? >> No, I didn't I didn't really feel that
02:22:37
way. I just felt like um it was it was definitely easier to to live with her. And it was easier that
02:22:48
way because um we still looked upon our future as uh as being together. We were going to get
02:22:57
married. >> Do you think they were going to get married? >> No. No. When he said it was easier
02:23:03
living with her, that's what he meant. You know, he was having all his bills paid and
02:23:10
he could do whatever he wanted. Um, so in in August 2009, Jaime lost her job. Uh, the real estate market crashed.
02:23:20
The financial crisis hit her hard. What do you think was going on in that relationship at that point?
02:23:26
>> Well, we don't know, but we know that she was supporting him. Um, I doubt if he was emotionally supportive for her um
02:23:36
going through something like this. and her her joblessness went on for a while, which must have been very difficult for
02:23:44
a woman who was used to succeeding and making a lot of money and doing well. She didn't tell her friends, you know,
02:23:52
much about how she felt about what was going on. And she was actually out of work for months. uh she was applying for
02:24:00
jobs all over the country, New Jersey, Florida, Denver, Colorado, and eventually she did get a job in Arizona
02:24:08
in again in medical sales. But on March 17th, 2010, it was her third day on the job. Brian claims that he was at Jaime's
02:24:18
house when she got home from work. I just remember that um she'd come home, she was in scrubs,
02:24:29
threw her hands up in the air, totally exasperated, and uh so it's like, you know, you seem aggravated. What's going
02:24:38
on? You know, and she's just like, I can't take I'm not going back there. This it was absolutely crazy.
02:24:45
>> And she's talking about her new job. >> Yeah. And it and I'm like, wow. Okay.
02:24:49
Well, what happened? What's going on? And she's like, well, you know, it was, you know, I get there and and uh you
02:24:56
know, she's like, I I just kind of sort of had a bad feeling. That totally contradicts the friend who
02:25:04
helped her get that job, uh, who reported she was excited about the job. She finally had a job. Um, you know,
02:25:13
Brian, Rick, whatever you want to call him, also said something like, "Well, there was a creepy guy at the job and
02:25:20
she wanted to get away from him." I don't believe either one of those. So, he was talking in circles and you kept
02:25:28
trying to bring him back to exactly what happened that night. Tell me what happened that night. And I love this
02:25:34
next moment because you were starting to get so frustrated with him. You accidentally or not called him by his
02:25:41
real name. >> Well, remember that was one of the conditions that I had to call him Brian.
02:25:46
So >> he got a little annoyed. Let's listen to this. >> What happened that night, Rick?
02:25:52
>> Brian. >> Um, >> what happened that night? That was when she came in and uh asked me to take a
02:26:00
week off from work and uh I was like, "Well, when?" And she's like, "Well, in the next day or two, you know, next
02:26:14
couple days." I can't do that. Um what are you what are you talking about? What's going on? and she's like,
02:26:24
"We need to we're going to go to Denver. We're going to get a house. You know, I
02:26:28
I've got a job offer up there. Um it, you know, it's it's time to go. I want to go. I want to get out of this state."
02:26:35
Well, okay. This is awfully short notice, you know. And then it was I want to go to Denver. We need to go.
02:26:43
We need to find a house. Uh and and we're going to get married. Well, now wait a second. Now you and I
02:26:51
know the rules here. Okay, I'm not getting married to you until I find out what the heck's going on between you and
02:26:56
your dad. >> This is where it really gets crazy. So, he's taking two truths and using them to
02:27:04
lie to you to your face, >> right? So, um, as we mentioned, she did have a complicated relationship with her
02:27:12
parents. And so and and Rick Brian Brian uh clearly knew about it and wanted to use that and and then of course he used
02:27:23
a truth um when she was as I had mentioned earlier she was looking for jobs. She was looking in Denver,
02:27:31
Colorado for a job and and had hoped to get one but she did not get that job. I just can't get over how he just calmly
02:27:39
sits there and makes up these stories to your face. I mean, he had already done it on the witness stand, too. Right. So,
02:27:46
>> Right. But also, it was his entire life. He had lied his entire life. That was
02:27:50
the one thing we always heard about him. He's a liar. And um and sometimes people
02:27:56
like they think, "Oh, particularly women, oh, she'll believe me." And um so yeah, he yeah, his face never changed
02:28:04
whether he was telling the truth or not. His face is the same. >> Well, that that's a good point because I
02:28:09
felt like he was looking at me as a woman, like a dumb woman every time. And so I just kind of let him believe that
02:28:16
about me. You know, I was a very good listener. He never asked me a single question whenever I talked to him. It
02:28:22
was always him running his stories by me. And I just listened. Just listened. He probably was trying to figure out
02:28:29
what seemed to stick and what didn't. >> Definitely. Yes. >> What would work? What what seemed to
02:28:35
really uh resonate with you? >> Yeah. Yeah. Can I take a minute to tell you I don't know if you remember the
02:28:42
story, but I was with him once um on one of our visits and um I had said to them,
02:28:48
"Please don't leave me in the room with him for 4 hours again." I said, "Just give me two hours and then come knock on
02:28:53
the door." And I always had to have a guard with me, right? So this guard kept like le he was so bored listening to
02:28:59
this guy go on and on. He kept leaning out the door to see if they were coming to save us. And at one point he stepped
02:29:06
out and the door smacked shut behind him. And without missing a beat, Brian Rick Brian says, "Quick, take off your
02:29:15
clothes and get on the table." And I laughed and I said, "Oh, come on." But like that's how he was treating me.
02:29:22
>> Oh, that is the creepiest. I remember this now, but that is one of the creepiest stories. That's what you don't
02:29:30
want to happen, >> right? Oh, it was so bizarre. Anyway, after a little over 2 years, he says it
02:29:37
was a dramafree breakup. I mean, come on. She was leaving and he was taking his things and going. And he says they
02:29:45
even slept in the same bed and he left the next morning for work. Jamie was missing for nearly 2 and 1/2 months and
02:29:52
no one even noticed. >> I think um her friend said the same thing that it did take a while but then
02:30:00
people started noticing that she was not posting or emailing anybody. So, you know, it's a little bit like telephone.
02:30:07
Has anybody heard from Jamie? Has anybody heard from Jamie? And so, he's realizing that people are going to start
02:30:14
looking at at him as well. So, he wants to look like another concerned person. Where's Jamie? And so, he calls someone
02:30:24
and and says, "Look, you know, uh, I'm worried about her." And the other thing I think really plays a part in this, and
02:30:32
this is so sad. We heard this over and over again from her friends. You don't know somebody who's going to disappear
02:30:38
like this. So, it was hard for people to believe that her boyfriend would do away with her.
02:30:46
>> They just didn't believe it. That doesn't happen to people, you know, is what we hear all the time on 48 hours.
02:30:52
And we really heard it with this case. >> That's so true. Yeah. >> Well, it's interesting that as soon as
02:30:59
the police, you know, they started looking because people reported him missing. her her parents reported her
02:31:06
missing and and they do track him down and he's driving her car and even they thought he was a little odd. So that's
02:31:13
the reason why they wanted to check him out. Police arrested him on a warrant for
02:31:19
driving on a suspended license and took him in for questioning and they held him
02:31:25
on charges of forgery and identity theft until they could make a case for murder.
02:31:31
When they asked him where Jamie was, this is what he told detectives. >> So, Thursday morning, I'm up at 2:30,
02:31:38
take my shower, eat breakfast, and I'm out the door by 3:45. That's the last I saw her.
02:31:44
>> Okay. >> Um, I got home around noon. There were two of the big suitcases missing. There
02:31:51
was a carry-on missing. Um, and she was gone. Uh, detectives searched Jaime's home and
02:31:59
her suitcases were still there. The car that she drove was also there and so was
02:32:05
her passport, but her wallet and credit cards and driver's license were missing.
02:32:10
Then, with Brian in custody, they got a warrant to search his apartment and found some really alarming evidence.
02:32:19
>> What I probably will never forget the rest of my life because it's so disturbing is when they went to the
02:32:24
apartment, he had he had rented right before quote unquote uh you know she disappeared. Um they
02:32:33
found her wallet and several several of her credit cards were on the desk and what was saddest to me was in an
02:32:42
envelope they found all these little cutup pieces of what turned out to be her driver's license. Right. And you
02:32:49
know, her cell phone was also at his apartment. But as usual, you know, Brian is not phased by this very damaging
02:32:59
evidence. And he had an explanation for all of this. And I don't think anyone listening is going to believe it. But
02:33:07
this is what he claimed. >> She's still alive. So this all this hubbhub is is a lot of horse crap.
02:33:16
>> What do you mean she's still alive? You're saying Jamie is still alive? >> She's still alive.
02:33:20
>> How do you know? >> Because until I'm proven differently, I know what her plans were. I know what she
02:33:30
wanted to do. I know what she wanted to accomplish, >> which was >> leave Arizona and get away from her dad.
02:33:46
Are you saying that you helped Jaime change her identity? >> Yeah, I showed her how to do it.
02:33:52
>> So, are you saying that you made up the idea that she had a job in Denver? >> No. Uh-uh.
02:34:00
>> He's now totally changing his story. First, he's telling you Jamie went to Denver, and now she didn't go to Denver.
02:34:06
She just got up and disappeared to get away from her dad, who, as we mentioned before, she did have a complicated
02:34:13
relationship with. What is he trying to say? >> He's now saying that she was so tired of
02:34:19
her own life that she asked him how he did it. And what's so hard about that is this was again this very accomplished
02:34:28
woman and very buttoned down and would she do something like that? >> Right. Do you think she knew that he had
02:34:35
changed his identity? Do you think she found out? No. >> Well, she might have found out, right?
02:34:40
>> Something happened that night. So maybe she did find out. Maybe during that time
02:34:45
off she was looking into without a job. When I say time off, when she wasn't working, she looked into him. Something
02:34:52
happened on March 17th. So um Okay. So he's changing his story now. Did she go to Denver? Did she disappear? This is
02:35:01
what you asked him. >> So did she have that job? Did she take a job in Denver or not?
02:35:06
>> I don't know. >> So is she What name is she operating? >> Oh, I don't know that. So,
02:35:11
>> what do you mean? If you helped her, wouldn't you know it now? >> Well, you have to understand I I helped
02:35:16
her from a general standpoint. I showed her how I did it. Okay. Now, um there were books. Okay. Uh she read
02:35:29
the books. She knew they were there. She she had all of that. Plus, she had me. And that was the thing that I told her
02:35:37
this is that the real key is you got to have money. You got to have cash. Okay. >> She didn't have any cash.
02:35:46
>> Oh, she had Well, >> she didn't have any cash, Brian. All her money. She left behind all her credit
02:35:52
cards. She left behind all her accounts. >> Sure. you know, I I mean, he wasn't expecting
02:36:00
that I would know that that she had money still sitting in her account. She simply disappeared. And I think what's
02:36:08
really important to know is that she didn't have a reason to disappear, right? >> She didn't have a reason. She had a
02:36:14
brand new job. She wasn't running from things. She didn't have ex-husbands or children she didn't want to pay child
02:36:22
support for. There was no reason for her to want to change. >> This next exchange kept me from dating
02:36:30
online for many, many years. For a decade. >> You used your credit cards to go on
02:36:36
dating sites. >> Mhm. >> That's nervy, isn't it? >> Yeah, it's pretty nerdy. >> And pretty insensitive, too, isn't it?
02:36:45
>> Um, >> yeah. >> You know, a little because Well, let me let me explain. You used her credit
02:36:54
cards to go on dating sites to meet other women. >> Well, you know what? Look, Jamie Jaime
02:36:59
was leaving. Jaime had her own life to live. And >> so, use your own money. Why did you use
02:37:03
hers? >> Well, I did. Okay. That was the whole point. >> When you asked him what gave him the
02:37:10
right to use Jaime's credit cards, he said he was doing it for her. Can you explain that rationale, please?
02:37:17
>> Well, I can't really explain it. I could tell you what his thoughts were. Um, I
02:37:23
mean, I was so offended by that. Um, as a reporter and a woman, the idea that he
02:37:31
would claim to me, here she disappeared, she left behind the credit cards. Um, and that he used those credit cards uh
02:37:40
to meet other people was so offensive. But what he claimed was she was still alive.
02:37:47
I know nobody will believe me, but this is what he said. That she was still alive and he was giving her cash and
02:37:55
leaving it at her house where she would come in, I guess in the middle of the night, pick it up, um, and then
02:38:05
disappear again. I mean, who's going to believe that? But he said it to me just like that was the most normal thing to
02:38:12
say. >> Yeah, it's super crazy. So, this next exchange feels to me like the final car chase in a movie.
02:38:22
>> It seems to me that when you're preparing for trial, if you could have found her, you would have found her with
02:38:27
your lawyers. That's all you would have needed and you wouldn't have gone on trial at all.
02:38:31
>> Well, now, okay, just because I could have sent her an email, just because I could have called a number doesn't mean
02:38:38
that she wouldn't have switched it out at that point. Okay. Because >> But you didn't even try.
02:38:43
How am I supposed to try? >> She's gone. No one sees her again. March 18th. >> Jamie's dead, isn't she?
02:38:51
>> It's not hard to get new ID. >> You said it takes time. You yourself said that, Brian.
02:38:58
>> I said it takes time. >> She didn't have that time. >> I said it takes time to create a new
02:39:04
persona. To get the ID is nothing, >> right? She didn't have the time to create the new persona.
02:39:10
>> Yes, she did. Jamie took $100,000 and what could be three different identifications and she left the state
02:39:21
of Arizona. >> Do you remember how you felt in that moment? >> Well, it it's just like where do you go
02:39:28
with that? This is a man I mean what was really sad. I mean what I was trying to
02:39:32
make a point there. He's saying she's still alive and he's on trial for her murder. And if she was still alive, he
02:39:40
would have reached out to her and said, "Save me. Prove please that I didn't kill you." I mean, what's what you have
02:39:47
to be thinking as you're sitting there when you're talking is he killed her. And he has the nerve to sit there and
02:39:54
say, "She's still alive." Um, it's not only old, it's just incredibly sad and uh aggravating.
02:40:02
>> Yes. very um he was called to the stand, the witness stand as Rick Wayne Valentini,
02:40:09
aka Brian Stewart, but his lawyer called him Brian. I mean, so crazy. She walked
02:40:16
him through his name change and the rest of his story gently and then the prosecutor, Juan Martinez, uh took over
02:40:23
and pounded him. I mean, I remember the judge basically outside of the view of the jury saying, "We get it. We get it."
02:40:33
You know, um, so just after he was convicted and prior to his sentencing, he agreed to an interview with you. Um,
02:40:41
what do you recall about that day? >> Well, actually, you made me remember all of this. You know, we had amazing
02:40:48
access. I've never had that kind of access inside a prison. Um the day that we were with him, his lawyer came to see
02:40:55
him and was shocked to hear that we were there because he had not told her he was
02:41:02
talking to the press. That is a nightmare for a defense attorney. I mean, he lied to everyone, including his
02:41:09
own lawyer. >> All along you've told a lot of different stories. >> Sure. >> And they're contradictory stories.
02:41:17
>> Sure. >> I mean, you admit you've lied about things. Sure. >> Why should somebody believe you now?
02:41:27
>> I'm not I'm not asking for people to believe me. I'm not, you know, I to me I don't really care what people think.
02:41:42
>> I think he does care. But so have you heard it all from him? >> No. Which is, you know, oddly upsetting.
02:41:49
they go away and they never call me again. But the last conversation I had with him, I was at the airport on my way
02:41:56
home after all of you know after the the interview and um he asked me he started
02:42:03
asking me questions which he had never done like what's your last name and oh are you Jewish and it was so bizarre
02:42:12
like uh all of a sudden he's interested in me which was sort of creepy right and
02:42:17
I remember calling my best friend at the time and saying you know I actually feel
02:42:21
bad for this knucklehead. Like he just, you know, he just doesn't get it. He can't get out of his own way. And she
02:42:27
said to me, "Save that for someone who deserves it." >> I agree with her. So I Yeah, I do think
02:42:33
that because you spent so much time with him that you saw him more um as this guy
02:42:41
who could have had a great future and threw it away. He was he hurt himself. I saw him as I I couldn't get past. He was
02:42:48
a con man who killed this young woman who did have a great future and was just looking for
02:42:58
how she could succeed and impress her parents and he took that all away from all of them.
02:43:05
>> Um her parents were uh wonderful sweet people who um you know blamed themselves
02:43:15
in part. They felt they might have been too tough on her and they never got to a
02:43:21
chance to say that to her. >> Yeah, they were very sweet and I remember her mother saying she carries
02:43:26
her receiving blanket with her for the day that they find her. It was so sad >> and that turned out to be very important
02:43:36
years later. >> Yeah, you can. >> Yeah. So, um I don't know 6 and 1/2 years later, I was in Italy on vacation
02:43:43
and my phone rang and it was one of the detectives and when a detective calls me, I always answer. And he said,
02:43:51
"You're not going to believe this, but they found Jaime's body." >> And they did. Um, it it still makes me
02:43:58
sad because we did, you and I both talked to him um afterwards and what struck me was how moved they were
02:44:07
>> and happy that they were able to finally bring her home to her parents. And so,
02:44:14
um, you know, the parents will continue grieving, but at least it there's like a
02:44:20
a bit of closure to that. They know. >> They know he murdered her. They know where he put her and they could bury her
02:44:30
themselves. >> Yeah. And that's always so important to these families, right? They just want
02:44:35
their they want their people home. They want to know where they are, right? They
02:44:39
want to be able to grieve properly because sometimes when you don't know and I've done too many of these stories
02:44:45
where >> the person has not been found. That's that >> really kind of gets in the way of the
02:44:51
parents grieving properly because there's so much guilt. I should be looking for I didn't do enough to look
02:44:57
for. And so finally these parents can say she's at rest and we can mourn her properly.
02:45:06
So Erin, ultimately what's the lesson of this of this case? What should our audience take away from this?
02:45:12
>> Well, sadly, I think it is that I keep thinking of our friends of this doesn't
02:45:17
happen to us and yet it does. uh time and time again. Sadly, at 48 hours, um if you're worried of you're seeing signs
02:45:26
of a problem in a relationship, you tell your friend or your sister or your, you
02:45:31
know, whoever you know. And um and you when someone doesn't respond, disappear for a while, you you know, you don't let
02:45:41
that go. You don't just assume they're fine. This is a reminder to all of us to stay in touch with the people we care
02:45:48
about. It's so true. It's so true. Well, thank you again for joining me for this
02:45:54
podcast. You know, again, it was my first hour for 48 hours and now my first podcast for 48 hours. And it's such a
02:46:02
pleasure having you. >> But you know what? There'll be plenty of conversations with killers.
02:46:09
>> On the next episode of Killer Conversation, Peter Vans joins me again. this time to discuss two infamous
02:46:16
teenage killers who made headlines around the world but only granted interviews to Peter for 48 hours.
02:46:26
>> Did you and Sebastian Burns meticulously plan the murder of your family? >> Absolutely not.
02:46:34
[Music] >> 48 hours killer conversation is hosted and produced by me, Judy Ryback. Our
02:46:41
story editor is Mora Walls. Alan Pang oversees recording, mixing and sound design, factchecking, and additional
02:46:49
production support from Rebecca Laflam. And special thanks to 48 hours executive
02:46:54
producer Judy Tyiggard and Paramount Podcast Vice President Megan Marcus. Follow and listen to Killer Conversation
02:47:03
on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. If you liked this episode, please rate and review on Apple
02:47:10
Podcasts or Spotify. Tune in next Tuesday for an allnew episode of Killer Conversation. Follow Killer Conversation
02:47:18
on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. Now, a special two-part edition of 48
02:47:34
Hours. [Music] You don't know exactly what you're going to be finding up there and and so just
02:47:50
driving up there in in itself, you're kind of walking into the unknown. I I believe I was a little nervous.
02:48:02
>> I would describe it as being absolutely savage. This was someone who used a baseball bat
02:48:13
to kill the family. What I see is an attack that is not only calculated and carried out with
02:48:24
precision. There was blood all over the room on the ceiling on the floor. I also
02:48:30
see a crime scene that smacks of the murderer having a very very personal vendetta.
02:48:40
>> Somebody just went off the deep end and once they started killing they either
02:48:43
enjoyed it or they couldn't stop themselves. In an upper middle class neighborhood of
02:48:52
an upper middle class community, [Music] three unsuspecting and undeserving human
02:49:02
beings were savagely beaten to death. >> There's blood. They're not breathing. I
02:49:10
don't think it's safe here >> by somebody who they knew. Heat. [Music] [Music] Heat.
02:49:32
[Music] [Music] It was a plan, a well rehearsed, wellthoughtout plan. What happened in this house on a hot
02:50:11
summer night in 1994 brought tragedy and mystery to this quiet neighborhood in Belleview, Washington. Just after 2:00
02:50:19
in the morning on July 13th, police were called to a crime that would take them 10 years to bring to justice. Had you
02:50:27
ever seen anything like it? Never. >> James Jude Konat is a senior deputy prosecutor in King County.
02:50:36
He and a team of detectives have been haunted by this crime and the killers who got away.
02:50:42
>> They think that they are smarter than other people in the world. And I know that sounds just kind of a broad
02:50:48
statement, but I I really believe they believe that >> the search for the truth would lead
02:50:53
police to another country through a web of intriguing clues. Could this screenplay that described a murder
02:51:00
unlock the mystery? And in the end, would a sophisticated undercover operation set in a makebelieve world of
02:51:08
crime catch the real killers? The story begins with a call for help. >> Emergency. What are you reporting?
02:51:16
>> Uh uh my friends, his mom and dad, we think they're dead. >> Sebastian Burns and his friend Atif Rafé
02:51:25
had stumbled on a horrific scene. Atif's parents had been murdered. There is nothing that I can imagine about my
02:51:33
parents that could have justified anyone to do what was done to them. >> Sultana Raf's mother was the first to be
02:51:45
killed. >> Sebastian, what did you see when you walked through that door? >> We saw mom
02:51:53
lying on the floor. >> Tariq Rafé was the next to be murdered. >> We could see There was blood around him
02:52:03
and it it was clear that he had been attacked. >> Why do you think that they're dead?
02:52:08
>> There's blood. They're not breathing. Uh there's there's blood all over his face.
02:52:13
>> It was basically an overkill. >> Detective Bob Thompson has been on the case since the night it began.
02:52:20
>> It just looked like someone had hit him 40 or 50 times. >> Please. Fast. Okay. Yes, they're on the
02:52:25
way. >> They're on the way. >> We'll be outside. >> Okay. Go ahead. As the boys waited for
02:52:30
help to arrive, a third victim, Aif's autistic older sister, Bosma, was clinging to life, moaning in her
02:52:38
bedroom. >> The third victim was autistic. It would make sense that she's murdered last
02:52:44
because everybody knows that she can't make a 911 call. >> Bosma died a few hours later at the
02:52:51
hospital, taking with her the secret of who killed the Rafé family. The Rafes had just moved to Belleview
02:52:59
from Vancouver, Canada. Sultana had a doctorate in nutrition, but devoted her life to raising her gifted son and
02:53:07
disabled daughter. >> I think she was um certainly an extraordinary person. >> Do you miss your mom?
02:53:13
>> I do. >> What do you miss most about her? >> Well, the the mere presence is enough,
02:53:19
but uh she knew me in a way that uh I suspect that no one ever will. Um, she was always able to look right through
02:53:27
the uh, adolescent sort of pomposities that I might have had and remind me that uh, I was just uh, a silly kid at times.
02:53:36
>> Tariq Rafé was a structural engineer who had worked on buildings around the world.
02:53:42
>> In a sense, we were all like kids around him or like my mom was too and we were
02:53:46
all I guess sort of in his orbit. Um, he was a brilliant person. uh probably a far better mathematician than I will
02:53:55
ever be. >> No one could understand who would take the lives of this quiet family and spare
02:54:01
their only son. Detectives began to look more closely at the crime scene. >> What's the problem there?
02:54:09
>> There's been some kind of breakin. >> Sebastian had used the words breakin to
02:54:14
report what had happened. >> Is it locked or is not locked? >> Unlocked. Just looking at that room, you
02:54:20
started realizing this this looks like someone set it up. Boxes were tipped over, drawers were opened, but nothing
02:54:27
appeared to have gone through. That night, when police asked what was missing, Aif said two things, his
02:54:34
discman and a VCR. >> Someone came in, murdered three people, and took his Walkman and a VCR.
02:54:43
I mean, it makes no sense. Detectives probe deeper. Who were these teenage boys who reported the crime?
02:54:52
>> The 199293 school year. >> Sebastian Burns and a Tif Rafé had been best friends since high school.
02:54:59
>> What' you like about high school? >> I liked being a kid. I liked having free
02:55:05
time and I liked hanging around with other kids and I just liked being young. The boys
02:55:12
shared a sarcastic sense of humor and an interest in reading and debate. >> What would you guys talk about? What
02:55:18
were you interested in? >> You know, it was things like uh Shakespeare and philosophy and uh chem
02:55:25
and things like that. >> They had a lot in common. They became very good friends because they were both
02:55:33
precocious. They were both intelligent. >> Sarah Issac is Sebastian's high school
02:55:38
sweetheart. >> He went to parties. He was athletic and he became friends with a Tif and sort of
02:55:45
showed a Tif how to dress. He'd introduced a Tif to girls. He sort of helped Tif be a a stud like he was.
02:55:56
>> That's going back a bit. >> Sebastian was raised in a loving family with English roots.
02:56:02
>> There was a lot of respect in our household. I mean um you didn't talk back to my parents. So, you didn't swear
02:56:09
in the house. >> Sebastian's sister, Tiffany. >> We both grew up playing classical cello,
02:56:15
so we had music lessons and we had to practice every day after school. >> All right.
02:56:20
>> In 2005, Tiffany was a TV reporter at the CBS station in Cleveland. She can't
02:56:25
say enough about her little brother. >> He's very smart. I mean, he's definitely
02:56:31
what you would call an intellectual. He's so well read. He's got so many fascinating things to say. Sebastian
02:56:38
became a member of the Royal Canadian Aircadets and was given an award by Prince Edward. A tif made it to the Ivy
02:56:46
League, attending Cornell University. It was the summer of their freshman year in
02:56:51
college when the murders took place. >> It sort of is like a jigsaw puzzle. You know, you just take that piece and you
02:56:58
put it here and you start you start fitting it together and pretty soon you get a picture.
02:57:02
Police took Sebastian and Aif to the station and examined them for traces of blood. They found nothing. When asked
02:57:10
where they had been that evening, the boys provide a full account. At 8:30, they drove to a restaurant for a bite to
02:57:17
eat. Then they went to a 950 showing of the Lion King. >> Why do you remember them?
02:57:23
>> They were acting annoying, obnoxious. Everywhere they went, the people who came into contact with them remembered
02:57:31
them. >> After the movie, they stopped at another restaurant and left the waitress a $6
02:57:36
tip on a $9 tab. >> They don't usually do that, especially young guys. Young guys don't tip very
02:57:42
well. >> But something else troubled police. How could the boys remember so much detail
02:57:48
about where they'd been that evening and yet not recall key moments at the murder
02:57:53
scene? The police decided to interview Sebastian and Aif again and detectives recorded the conversation.
02:58:02
>> I found my mom. >> Can't remember. >> What did you do? >> I I may have gone up to her. I I can't
02:58:08
remember. I don't know what I did. Um I can't remember. >> Did you go walk over to your dad?
02:58:15
>> Um I don't think so. No. >> Did you touch your dad? >> I don't think so. >> Well, you'd know though, wouldn't you?
02:58:22
>> Yeah. I I don't I I I don't know if I No, but I don't I don't think I >> see I don't understand this. Aif, your
02:58:31
your sister is moaning. She's hurt. >> Yes. >> And you don't want to help her? >> Detectives wanted to know why Aif didn't
02:58:38
help his dying sister even though he heard her through her bedroom door. >> How hurt is she?
02:58:46
>> I didn't know. >> Okay. You don't know how hurt she is. >> I don't know how hurt she is. All I know
02:58:52
is that I can't I I I can't do anything. >> Sebastian and Aif were witnesses. By the
02:58:59
time they left at the end of these statements, were they suspects? >> Yes, definitely sus. By the time they
02:59:05
left, they were suspects. >> You know what? I I think you know who it is. >> They
02:59:14
I would tell you I would tell you if I knew who did it. And investigators thought they not only knew who, they
02:59:20
also knew why. >> $300 to $400,000 is about to slip through his fingers as she lives. Are
02:59:26
you saying that didn't go to the aid of his sister because he didn't want to save his sister?
02:59:32
>> Aif didn't go to the aid of his sister because unless she died, the whole plan came crumbling down on
02:59:38
them. 3 days after the murders, relatives gathered in Belleview to bury the Rafes
02:59:45
in a traditional Muslim ceremony, but the only surviving member of the immediate family was nowhere to be
02:59:51
found. >> They were wondering where's the teeth? Where's the where's the son? >> On the day of the funeral, the Raf's
02:59:59
only son was on a bus headed across the border to Canada. And with him was his best friend, Sebastian Burns.
03:00:17
Sebastian and Aif were now in Vancouver, Canada, out of reach of the Belleview police and an investigation that
03:00:25
targeted them for the murders of the Rafé family. Did the boys go to Vancouver or did they flee to Vancouver?
03:00:33
From our perspective, they they fled back to Vancouver. >> He didn't flee. He went home.
03:00:41
>> Their sudden bus trip across the border only raised more suspicion. Even though
03:00:46
both boys were Canadian citizens, >> how do you flee a country getting on a Greyhound bus?
03:00:53
>> In fact, a representative from the Canadian consulate informed the Belleview police of their trip in
03:00:59
advance. She contacted the Belleview Police Department to say, "These guys are leaving. They're going home if
03:01:05
that's okay with you." And >> she was told, quote, "Sure." >> Mhm. >> She then tells the boys, "It's okay to
03:01:12
go." And they leave. That is not fleeing. >> It is not fleeing. I think it's >> to ask permission.
03:01:19
>> Aif and Sebastian both had my numbers. They knew I was even in the process of
03:01:23
getting them a pager so we could keep in contact. And they're gone. They don't tell me where they're at. They know I'm
03:01:28
investigating the murders of their parents and they're gone. >> Detective Thompson was a veteran cop.
03:01:35
>> This is the other. >> His gut told him that the boys were guilty, but he just didn't have the evidence to
03:01:43
prove it. Investigators kept combing the house. >> Is it lock? It's not locked. >> They found no forced entry. There was,
03:01:52
however, an eerie clue. A forensic tool, Luminol, showed blood on the shower walls. The killer had used the shower
03:02:03
before leaving. The person was so comfortable and calm and collected that he or she might then decide perhaps
03:02:10
they'll have a shower before they go. It is inconceivable. Could that be the reason why the boys
03:02:18
who had discovered the bodies at that bloody crime scene didn't have a trace of blood on their hair, their hands, or
03:02:26
anywhere on their bodies? >> Are you a killer, Sebastian? >> No, absolutely not.
03:02:32
>> Did you hold that bat in your hands and kill those three people? >> No, I didn't.
03:02:36
>> You're not lying to me. >> No. >> Would you have ever done anything, Aif, to hurt your parents?
03:02:44
>> No. The single most distressing thing about this entire experience is the fact that
03:02:52
I would even have to speak out and say, "Yeah, no, I I did not do that." >> Okay.
03:02:59
>> Even without physical evidence, detectives were determined. They began to build a case against the boys based
03:03:06
on their odd behavior following the murders. >> They cooperated. They did everything
03:03:11
that was asked of them. However, when they did things, they they had this air or this attitude about doing it.
03:03:19
>> They honed in on their demeanor at the crime scene and questioned why they sat
03:03:24
in front of the house if they believed an intruder might still be there. >> He's out on the curb, you know, 20 yards
03:03:31
away from the the front door where this supposed killer might be in the house and he's waiting for the police on the
03:03:37
curb. Well, the T7 a cigarette. I'm not sure that anything that we did made any sense. I I was not thinking in a normal
03:03:45
way. >> Police also couldn't make sense of why a thief would notice that his discman and
03:03:52
VCR were missing. >> He's walking around the house claiming to discover the fact the VCR is missing.
03:04:01
and ultimately while his mother and father and sister uh lay in a state of carnage.
03:04:12
Let's not mince words here. It is carnage. He claims to have discovered that the
03:04:18
walkman was missing from his bedroom. >> And they've decided that my son and his
03:04:25
friend are the guilty parties. They've decided that. I believe him to be totally innocent
03:04:31
as is a thief and they have been damned. >> Sebastian's family and friends rallied
03:04:38
around him and a teeth. >> I remember sitting on those steps with Sebastian. I remember sitting on that
03:04:46
field. >> Sebastian's former girlfriend Sarah Isac says she knows his character better than
03:04:53
anyone. Have you ever thought to yourself, maybe there was something I missed about
03:04:58
Sebastian that I just didn't see? >> There's nothing that anyone could tell me. There's never a moment when someone
03:05:04
could tell me something that made me think honestly, maybe he did it. I never had to face that moment ever. I know
03:05:13
Sebastian. He was and is my very, very good friend. Do the cops investigating this just need
03:05:21
to get home to dinner? I mean, why didn't they follow up the leads that came their way?
03:05:29
>> And there were other compelling leads. Within days of the crime, police received a tip from a reliable informant
03:05:37
that someone had offered $20,000 to kill an East Indian family that had recently
03:05:42
moved from Vancouver to Belleview. There's no physical evidence that links Aif and Sebastian to the crime. their
03:05:49
alibis check out and now you get this lead from an informant in Canada that somebody had been bragging about a hit
03:05:58
on an East Indian family in Belleview, Washington tells me that's the direction now you
03:06:04
should be focusing your investigation since there's no evidence against these boys.
03:06:09
>> Well, there is evidence against those boys. There was a lot of evidence against those boys and it was all
03:06:15
circumstantial. It wasn't evidence to convict them certainly. Is it fair to say that you didn't properly check out
03:06:21
this lead in Vancouver? >> Um, you know, there are it may be fair to say that that lead was not fully
03:06:28
checked out. You get all kinds of tips that come in and you have to weigh them. But the
03:06:36
leads didn't go that direction. The leads went directly to Canada and the leads followed, we followed those leads
03:06:41
to Sebastian and Aif. >> Aif, why don't you talk to police? >> On the advice of a lawyer, the boys
03:06:56
decided to stop cooperating with Belleview authorities. >> The minute we went to Canada, Burns and
03:07:02
Rafé wouldn't talk to us at all. They were telling other people not to talk to us.
03:07:07
So Thompson kept digging and found what he thought was a disturbing clue from their past.
03:07:14
>> We started looking through their high school yearbook and Sebastian Burns was
03:07:18
uh in a high school play called The Rope about two kids who commit the perfect murder.
03:07:25
[Music] >> These are words that Sebastian's character said on stage. Do you mind
03:07:32
reading it? An immaculate murder. I have killed. I have killed for the sake of danger and
03:07:39
for the sake of killing. >> Ariana McGregor performed in the West Vancouver High School production of Rope
03:07:46
along with Sebastian. >> The character in the play is somebody who's arrogant and um believes he's
03:07:52
better than everybody else. And Sebastian had a quality of being superior. He knew he was intelligent,
03:07:57
knew he was good-looking. >> What was Rope about? The gimmick of the play is that there's somebody is
03:08:03
murdered at the start of the play and the villains put him into a box and then they invite guests over. Everybody's at
03:08:11
this party wondering when the last guest is going to show up and nobody knows that actually he's in the box at the
03:08:16
front of the play. And so, um, there's lots of suspenseful giggles all the way through because everybody in the
03:08:22
audience knows that there's this, uh, person, this this thing in the box. See, black is quite ethical. Paul,
03:08:29
>> your character on stage says, "We've always said, you and I, that moral concepts of right and wrong don't hold
03:08:35
for the intellectually superior. The only crime we can commit is a mistake." There's some people who believe those
03:08:42
are words that the real Sebastian Burns might say. Mom, that's ridiculous. There was no time ever during any
03:08:53
performance or any rehearsal that anybody was ever thinking anything serious about any of the supposed
03:08:59
intellectual philosophies in this play or or anything like that. >> But detectives believed the fictional
03:09:07
murder story did inspire the real life crime. Even more chilling, the weapon was the same, a baseball bat. Well,
03:09:17
that's just a huge coincidence. I think Sebastian was actually mortified when when he realized that he was a suspect
03:09:24
in the baseball bat killings of the Rafé because he said, "Crips, what's going to
03:09:28
happen when they find out about the play?" >> How does the play end? >> Their superior figures them out. Someone
03:09:34
who is actually more intelligent than they are uh figures it out and they get caught.
03:09:44
As the investigation continued in Belleview, the boys were living well in Vancouver.
03:09:53
With some of the money Aif inherited from his parents' estate, they bought a convertible and rented an apartment
03:10:00
together with another high school pal. I think I'll stay here forever. >> Jimmy Moshi.
03:10:06
Behind drawn curtains, they hid from the media who were constantly in pursuit of
03:10:11
them and their story. >> Hello, is Aif there? >> 987. >> But while they weren't talking to the
03:10:24
police, the police were listening to them. >> Hello. >> Oh, yeah. >> Every word they spoke at home or in
03:10:33
their car was being recorded. How are you doing? >> Um, okay. I guess >> the boys had no idea they were now the
03:10:42
targets of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the RCMP. >> The RCMP applied for and ultimately uh obtained
03:10:52
authorization to do wire taps. On April 10th, 1995, RCMP investigators intercepted this phone message.
03:11:06
>> This is Quimper's hair salon calling for Sebastian to confirm his appointment
03:11:09
with Gregory tomorrow, Tuesday, April 11th. >> Sebastian could never have imagined that
03:11:15
he was about to fall into a trap set by one of the most sophisticated undercover
03:11:21
operators in the world. There was no doubt in my mind that yes, Sebastian Burns was responsible for this and we
03:11:28
were in fact going to get a full confession from him. By April of 1995, Sebastian Burns and
03:11:44
Aif Rafé were Canada's most famous teenage murder suspects. I remember a time when we're at a bus
03:11:54
stop and someone drove by and rolled down the window and yelled murderers. That was typical. They were paras. They
03:12:02
were hated. >> I was unable to go to college. I was unable to get a job. >> But the boys had a plan to make their
03:12:11
fortune and live out a lifelong dream. They started work on their very own screenplay about two best friends
03:12:22
accused of murdering a family. The movie was going to be about Sebastian Barren and a Tifra and the
03:12:30
injustice that was heaped upon them as a result of the suspicion about their involvement in this triple aggravated
03:12:38
murder case in Belleview. >> They called it the Great Despisers. We were worried that it would sound a
03:12:46
bit nerdy because having the word great in the title sounds that it makes sound kind of nerdy and uh if we'd called that
03:12:52
for example just the despisers um that would have uh been more unimpeachably cool. However, we we
03:13:01
decided to have the courage to stick with this nerdy title. While the boys worked on what they say is their
03:13:09
fictional story about two friends falsely accused, they had no idea the real life plotline was about to take an
03:13:17
astonishing turn. >> This is Quimper's hair salon calling for Sebastian to confirm his appointment
03:13:23
with >> that simple message from a local hair salon was the moment the RCMP was waiting for.
03:13:30
I think they were very vulnerable to whatever the RCMP had in store for them. These were kids who' lived pretty
03:13:40
sheltered lives. >> When Sebastian was finished at Crimper's salon, a stranger was waiting. And when
03:13:48
Mr. Burns comes out of the salon, the undercover operator just approaches him. What they call the cold approach.
03:13:56
>> He seemed to me like some kind of an entrepreneur. He walks up to him and says, "Hey buddy, can you give me a
03:14:02
hand? I seem to have locked my keys in the car." >> So, he asked me for a ride to his hotel
03:14:07
and I gave him a ride. >> The stranger took Sebastian to a bar and bought him a drink for his trouble.
03:14:14
>> I was impressed by that. And um I was also sort of intrigued, I guess, or or excited about the way that he seemed
03:14:26
um so ready to be interested in me. Sebastian told his new friend that he and his buddies had written a
03:14:33
screenplay, but he didn't have a job and needed financing. The friend said he knew someone who could help.
03:14:41
>> Ultimately, the goal was to get Sebastian to meet with the next guy up the chain, and it worked perfectly.
03:14:50
Sebastian thought he was about to meet a connected businessman, but it was this man,
03:14:57
Sergeant Hlett of the RCMP. We cannot show you his face. >> I don't think there's an undercover team
03:15:03
like this anywhere in the world. And I say that very seriously. >> The best of the best.
03:15:09
>> The best. The RCMP spent months preparing to manipulate their target. >> They had access to fancy cars, posh
03:15:24
hotel suites, weapons, false international documents, beautiful women. >> Posing as professional mobsters, the
03:15:34
RCMP set up the first meeting with Sebastian at a strip club. How important was this movie to
03:15:42
Sebastian Burns? It >> was just about his whole uh life. >> The crime boss told Sebastian he did
03:15:48
have cash to invest in his screenplay, but Sebastian would have to earn it. Sebastian had no idea he was being
03:15:57
offered work in a makebelieve world of crime. Jobs were also promised to Aif and their pal Jimmy Moshi.
03:16:07
>> I hope these guys are solid, man. These guys are never going to betray me. Ever.
03:16:13
All right. Never ever. >> Sebastian's first assignment. Transport a stolen car for the crime
03:16:21
boss. >> He had nothing. And then he was offered something. He was offered something that
03:16:27
was criminal, something that he probably wouldn't have thought was a good idea had he had something else going on in
03:16:33
his life. >> He was only paid $200 for the job. And he wasn't happy. >> He was disgusted.
03:16:41
>> He made it clear he wasn't happy. He uh told us he could make more money than
03:16:45
that stealing his videos out of stores. >> It was essential to the undercover operation that Sebastian continue
03:16:52
working for the organization. So the next staged crime is easier for more cash. >> What I want you guys to do, which is no
03:16:59
big deal, it's pretty straightforward. Uh >> Sebastian and Jimmy Moshi go from one
03:17:04
bank to another laundering money. >> Cash is here. Just taking deposit into this account. When you guys run the
03:17:10
first time, next time a different bank. >> This time for a day's work, they get paid $2,000.
03:17:20
>> So cool. This has been the thing I ever been awkward this morning. >> I couldn't help but be excited about
03:17:26
having $2,000 put in my hand and I'd hardly had to do anything for it. >> Months go by. The undercover operators
03:17:34
take Sebastian to posh hotels trying to build trust and draw him out. How's the movie?
03:17:45
go out there and start filming or anything, but script is uh fair enough. >> Did you sense that Sebastian felt he was
03:17:54
smarter than you? >> Oh, there's no doubt. He made it clear and told us that on more than one
03:17:59
occasion. >> Smart. I'm one of the most intelligent people in the world. >> Slowly, the undercover operators bring
03:18:11
up the investigation in Belleview. Hlett tries to get Sebastian to confess by telling him he already knows what
03:18:19
happened. >> I know you did it. You know you did it. The police know you. All right. I know
03:18:25
that. >> Sebastian doesn't admit guilt, but he confides in the mobsters that if the
03:18:32
police did find something to tie him to the crime, he might want them to destroy
03:18:36
it. And he has a very practical theory. As one of the best known murder suspects in
03:18:43
Canada, he is confident that his movie would make millions if he is suddenly proven innocent.
03:18:51
>> And a film with that kind of promotion because the thing is as it is right now,
03:18:55
it's like controversy, right? Which in itself promotes, right? But this is like, oh, you're heroes. It suddenly
03:19:01
goes up to 25, 30 million. >> Taking their cue again from their target, the businessmen raise the
03:19:09
stakes. They tell Sebastian that the Belleview police have physical evidence tying him to the crime.
03:19:16
>> Well, I tell you, they're coming to lock your ass up. >> There's your friends.
03:19:23
>> To make it seem real, Hlett shows him this phony memo on Belleview police letter head detailing the evidence
03:19:31
linking Sebastian to the murders. here. Just read this piece of >> The mobsters offer to destroy the
03:19:39
so-called evidence, but they need Sebastian to tell them exactly what happened in the Rafé house the night of
03:19:47
the murders. >> Well, I want your help and you need my help. So, you tell me what went on down there
03:19:58
and I'm going to tell you how I'm going to take care of your problem. Finally, on July 18th, 1995,
03:20:05
one year after the murders, Sebastian meets the crime boss, Sergeant Hlett, at the Ocean Point Resort, and the cameras
03:20:15
are rolling. He walks into this hotel room and takes off his shoes. He stretches out on a love
03:20:23
seat. It's only then that Mr. Burns lets his guard down and the dirty little secret that he's been protecting for the
03:20:29
last 12 or 13 months starts to unravel on video for the whole wide world to see.
03:20:34
>> It has taken 3 months of undercover work to get to this moment. >> Both guys are coming in and say, "Hey,
03:20:42
let's go off your family and get all their money." >> Basically, essentially, yeah. I mean
03:20:52
>> and he uh told me the details how him and T R F R F R F R F R F R F R F R F R
03:20:56
F R FE did commit the murders in Belleview. >> How did you three people at once?
03:21:04
>> Uh otherwise when I >> extremely extremely cold individual it's phenomenal, man.
03:21:15
The next day, Sebastian brings a teeth to the crime boss to tell his story. >> How does it feel when your parents
03:21:24
thought it's just pretty rotten? But it's tempered by the fact that I felt that way. It was necessary to I guess um
03:21:38
achieve what I wanted to achieve in this life. That's all the police needed to hear.
03:21:48
>> Those were solid, strong confessions that only the individuals that responsible for that murder would be
03:21:56
able to sit down and tell it like it was. >> Cheers. >> Sebastian, Aif, and Jimmy Moshi are all
03:22:06
arrested. >> You have anything to say? >> But this case is just beginning. Sebastian says he's lying, that
03:22:15
undercover officers intimidated him into making a false confession. I believe that if I'd cross them that they would
03:22:23
have me killed. Sebastian Burns and Aif Rafé, best friends who once dreamed of making it
03:22:41
big in movies, were now behind bars. But no sooner were Sebastian and Aif arrested than the same Canadian
03:22:56
government that set a trap to catch them led an international battle to spare their lives.
03:23:03
>> We should not be sending anybody back. >> The case went all the way up to Canada's
03:23:08
Supreme Court. Persons who leave the country and commit offenses outside of the country should expect that they will
03:23:14
be punished under the laws of the jurisdiction in which they committed um the crime.
03:23:24
[Music] Sending the boys back across the border to Washington meant they would face the
03:23:31
death penalty if convicted. A punishment Canada had long since abolished and considered inhumane.
03:23:40
>> We never knew when we were going to be leaving for the United States. >> And every time we heard, oh, there may
03:23:45
be a trial, you know, next year, then it became the next year. And that lasted for about four years where we thought
03:23:52
that we were a week away from extradition. After 6 years of legal wrangling, the
03:24:01
King County prosecutor in Seattle agreed to Canada's demands not to seek the death penalty.
03:24:11
Sebastian and Aif, now 25year-old men, were finally extradited to face murder charges.
03:24:19
Mr. Raf, you're charged. Mr. Burns, you're charged in the cause numbers that I just read with three counts of
03:24:25
aggravated murder in the first degree. >> If convicted, the penalty would now be
03:24:31
life with no parole. >> That goes with the motion to dismiss. >> They were appointed a team of attorneys.
03:24:38
Representing Sebastian was Terresa Olsen, an ardent, if eccentric, public defender who believed in the boy's
03:24:45
innocence. >> Of course, they didn't do the killings. the the the evidence is clear that they
03:24:49
didn't do the killings. >> Olsen worked tirelessly on the case, running down leads and witnesses.
03:24:57
But in the summer of 2002, the case took a bizarre turn. Guards at the King County Jail reported
03:25:05
seeing Olen having sex with Sebastian during an attorney client meeting. >> Shut up.
03:25:11
>> The well publicized scandal even caught the attention of late night comic Jay
03:25:16
Leno. male lawyer in Seattle is in trouble for having sex in jail with her client who is a murderer. How creepy is
03:25:24
that? Huh? Sex with a lawyer >> and brought the trial to a grinding halt. >> This court had no choice
03:25:37
but to appoint new counsel. >> Sebastian's new attorneys were a dream team. Ivy League trained Jeff Robinson
03:25:45
and Song Richardson. >> There is a lot at stake for Sebastian Burns and we will be fighting till the
03:25:53
end. >> 187's a retired artist. >> They were among Seattle's best and most expensive criminal defense lawyers.
03:26:00
>> Exactly. >> Along with Amanda Lee, they staunchly believed in the boy's innocence and
03:26:06
agreed to take the high-profile case at a public defender's wage. They have been
03:26:12
essentially judged and treated as though they were guilty from the beginning when
03:26:17
the evidence just isn't there. >> What kind of pressure is on all of your shoulders as we approach this trial?
03:26:25
>> Nothing more or less than the rest of Sebastian Burn's natural life. >> They were up against two of the most
03:26:34
seasoned and respected prosecutors in Seattle. >> I want to talk. >> We're going to get in. Let's sit up.
03:26:40
Roger David Heiser would be joining James Conat on the case. >> It's not justice, it's the truth. What
03:26:47
we're after here is the truth. And I would submit to you that's what separates our side from theirs.
03:26:59
By September 2003, Sebastian and Aif had been in jail for more than eight years,
03:27:06
charged but never convicted for the Rafé family murders. >> You have to recognize that these are
03:27:13
human beings and they have had their lives stolen from them. And to make it worse, they've had their lives stolen
03:27:21
from them to somehow resolve a murder that they didn't commit. >> The case would turn on those
03:27:30
controversial confessions. >> Make believe mobsters extracting confessions from teenagers. Is that
03:27:40
allowed in the state of Washington? >> It's not allowed in the state of Washington.
03:27:46
And I don't think it's allowed anywhere else in the United States under the circumstances that it was done in this
03:27:54
case. >> Are you comfortable using the results from an illegal undercover investigation
03:28:01
by US laws in your case? >> This investigation was not illegal because it was conducted in Canada by
03:28:08
Canadian authorities targeting Canadian citizens. It was an investigation that they undertook separate and apart from
03:28:14
the Belleview investigation. [Applause] This case, it's not only about the lives
03:28:25
of my two friends. It's about the responsibility of police and prosecutors to do their job properly and to act in
03:28:34
good faith. And they have not done that in this case. >> It would be up to Superior Court Judge
03:28:42
Charles Martell. Well, please be seated everyone >> to decide if Sebastian and Aif's
03:28:48
chilling confessions caught on tape would be allowed to damn them in an American court.
03:28:54
>> Other prosecutors in other cases with evidence just like that have told jurors just like the ones
03:29:02
that will sit in our case that it's a slam dunk. And those jurors very comfortably have convicted people and
03:29:08
sentenced them to die. And they've been wrong. Judge Martell was about to make the most
03:29:17
controversial ruling of his career. The boy's lives would depend on what he was about to say.
03:29:26
48 hours continues. [Music] Before [Music] we begin, just a trigger warning. The
03:30:02
following episode contains references to graphic physical violence. Please listen
03:30:07
with care. Let's be honest. You've been portrayed as a monster. >> Yes. >> Evil, maniacal,
03:30:18
plotting, a murderer. >> Are you those things? >> No. [Music] >> Welcome to Killer Conversation, a
03:30:30
podcast about the criminal mind. My name is Judy Ryback and I'm a longtime 48 hours producer. So, I like to think I
03:30:39
know a thing or three about killers. In this episode, Peter Vans and I will take
03:30:43
a deep dive into two interviews he did with convicted killers, teenagers who murdered three people for money and the
03:30:51
thrill of it back in 1994. A decade later, they agreed to be interviewed exclusively by Peter for 48
03:31:00
hours. >> Did you hold that bat in your hands and kill those three people? No, I didn't.
03:31:06
Sebastian Burns has been described as the mastermind who used a metal baseball bat to kill his buddy Aif Rafé's mother,
03:31:14
father, and sister while Aif stood by. >> Aif, did you and Sebastian Burns meticulously plan the murder of your
03:31:25
family? >> Absolutely not. >> Hi, Peter. Good to see you again. Thanks so much for joining me. So, this was
03:31:33
such a high-profile case. You covered it twice for 48 hours and wrote a book about it. Tell us how you got involved.
03:31:41
>> Sometimes it's the simplest of of ways. The house where this occurred was about
03:31:48
a mile and a half from the house where I grew up in, this was in Bellev, Washington, and a great source that I'd
03:31:55
used over the years, my mother, called to tell me about it. And I immediately did everything I could to try to uh land
03:32:02
this assignment. So, from the very beginning, it was I had really kind of a personal stake in this.
03:32:08
>> I think I know the answer to this question, but I want to hear you say it. What was it about this case?
03:32:14
>> Oh, man. This story had everything. You've got two best friends. They're young. They're meticulous plotters,
03:32:22
vicious, heartless characters that some fiction writer could not have come up with. The two of them met in high school
03:32:29
in Vancouver, Canada. And in all the years I had lived in Belleview, there had never been an unsolved murder case.
03:32:36
>> So both of these boys were Canadian citizens at the time, right? I mean, the Rafé were living in Washington, but they
03:32:43
were they were Canadians. So this case drew international attention and yet you were the only journalist who Sebastian
03:32:51
and agreed to interview with. How did you get that interview? Why 48 hours? Well, first 48 does have a great
03:33:00
reputation of honestly telling these stories and wanting to hear from both sides and and respecting the whole
03:33:07
process. But has to go back to my producers on this one, Jenna Jackson, Guyian Kosishian, and Nancy Kramer uh
03:33:15
who lived dedicated their lives uh this six-monthlong trial. We had someone there virtually every day. And so they
03:33:23
met the defense attorneys, they developed relationships, they met Sebastian's parents and of course were
03:33:29
dead. Um, and they developed some trust and as a Seattleite that connected with a lot of people. I was I grew up there.
03:33:37
I knew the the area. I knew Vancouver, Canada really well. And I think all of that came together and we managed to
03:33:43
land the interviews. >> Amazing. I I know what that's like to uh sit through long trials and and gain
03:33:50
everyone's trust. Um, so they are both remorseless killers, but so different. Sebastian seems diabolical. Aif is so
03:34:01
aloof. How did you prepare for two very different interviews? >> Well, in both cases, you know, we had
03:34:08
the the ability to dig into these police reports. We watched the undercover videos which were haunting. We
03:34:17
interviewed investigators, prosecutors, defense attorneys. You know, they all were very open with sharing information
03:34:23
with us and I can't can't thank them enough. Sebastian was cocky and condescending and people said he was the
03:34:30
mastermind and he just would look at you and couldn't help it but look down upon
03:34:36
you even though he's wearing an orange jumpsuit even though he's the one behind bars. Um, I was the fool in the room. I
03:34:44
felt when I was talking to him and I knew I I had to be direct and really wellprepared because he would correct me
03:34:51
on any any fact. >> Aif was his devoted follower. He was a very soft-spoken intellectual
03:34:59
um who, if you believe what investigators have concluded in this case, he stood by while his best friend
03:35:07
in the world savagely beat his family to death with a baseball bat. So, I honestly didn't know what to expect with
03:35:16
him because when you first greet him, he's very well-mannered, but as you get into a conversation, he loves to turn it
03:35:24
into um verbal combat and he wants to impress you with his with his array of weapons uh with the with the English
03:35:33
language. And so it's fascinating to sit with him and he found that to be almost
03:35:38
a contest, >> a debate in a way that he in his mind he could never lose. >> You talked to them separately in the
03:35:46
jail where they were awaiting sentencing. Tell me about that day. >> It was so weird. I It was a vibe that I
03:35:55
have never encountered in any other uh interview with a killer. Arrogance just filled the air. no remorse, not taking
03:36:04
any responsibility for these horrors. Occasionally, they would smile in a way that was exasperating. I mean, I even
03:36:12
said at one time in the interview to Sebastian, "What do you think this is funny?" Cuz he'd have a smile on his
03:36:19
face. And so, in that way, it was a real out of body experience for me as a journalist.
03:36:25
>> Did you ever think to yourself that because of your superior intelligence, the rules of society did not apply to
03:36:31
you? No. And I really didn't sincerely think in those terms at all. My, as you put
03:36:38
it, my superior intelligence. I just, like I said, I used to make a lot of wise cracks. And um,
03:36:47
no, I I didn't think like that. >> How would you describe Sebastian in a word? Uh, I have to use words
03:36:55
unfortunately, but he handsome, charming when he chose to be, smart, someone who
03:37:00
could have accomplished great things in life. Sebastian, he became a member of the Royal Canadian Aircadets. And
03:37:06
there's this picture of him getting an award by Prince Edward, you know, and his parents were so proud.
03:37:12
>> Uh, he expected to be a lawyer in life, he said, because he loved to be so argumentative.
03:37:17
He was raised in a um in a really great home, a very sophisticated upper middle class family. Mom and dad were very well
03:37:24
educated. They lived in West Vancouver, British Columbia. It was a very, very desirable neighborhood. It was a place
03:37:31
where Sebastian and his sister Tiffany, they wake up the parents in the morning uh on Christmas morning playing their
03:37:38
cellos, you know, a Christmas song to to wake them up. Uh, Sister uh Tiffany was
03:37:45
was a real successful woman in her own right. She was a television reporter and anchor at at the CBS station in
03:37:53
Cleveland and working her way up in a very promising career. >> Well, how would you describe a thief in
03:38:00
in a word? >> Compliant. That's the way he was with with Sebastian. >> Aif had been accepted at Cornell
03:38:09
University, which is currently ranked number 11 in the country by US News and World Report. He was impressive and he
03:38:17
knew it. >> And I know you've heard this many times, but the notion is two arrogant, smug,
03:38:26
self-absorbed young men who saw themselves as intellectually superior planned the perfect murder so that you
03:38:34
could financially benefit from it and achieve the things in your own words that you wanted to achieve in life.
03:38:43
>> Yeah, I know. It's uh such a compelling tabloid narrative but like many tabloid
03:38:48
narratives it's fatuous and foolish and false and um it's uh that particular line about uh achieving
03:38:59
the things that I want to do in life. I think that if any discerning person looks at that, they will see the empty
03:39:07
abstractions of someone who is trying to come up with some kind of justification
03:39:14
for something that he didn't do and couldn't justify. >> My goodness, his smuggness is palpable
03:39:22
and he has a smile on his face the whole time. What made these two friends, Peter?
03:39:29
I guess there was there similarities in intellect, but they were the odd couple.
03:39:34
One was the leader, one was the follower. They were both quirky. Um they they gravitated toward each other in
03:39:41
high school. Both were fans of the German philosopher Frederick Nichze who was Hitler's favorite philosopher by the
03:39:49
way. Nietze um had this theory of uber mench, the superman who could impose his own morality, his own will upon the weak
03:39:59
through strength and dominance. Um I think they saw themselves as supermen. >> Were there any signs when they were in
03:40:09
high school that either of them might be capable of of a crime like this? >> Yeah. When we were doing interviews in
03:40:15
in Vancouver, there was a a woman we spoke to uh who was a a good friend of Sebastian's, in fact, a girlfriend, and
03:40:24
she told authorities that Sebastian had told her that he wanted to know what it was like to kill someone.
03:40:32
>> Are you saying that you are incapable of committing murder? >> Yes, absolutely you are. Then how do you
03:40:39
explain what you said to your friend Nazgal Shifty 6 months before these murders? I'd like to kill somebody
03:40:46
someday. I think I'd like to know what it feels like. I think I might find it rather enjoyable.
03:40:53
>> That was a sarcasm that I made. First of all, I want to be clear that's not a
03:40:59
verbatim quote. Nobody knows what the verbatim quote is. That was a sarcasm that was made uh at some point when I
03:41:06
was 17 years old. I was reminded of it for the first time just this last March. Okay.
03:41:14
>> Why would he even say a thing like that? Like who says a thing like that? What
03:41:18
was he testing her? >> Yeah. Look, this girlfriend, that quote was burned into her mind. She was very
03:41:24
bright. And I think that was maybe a word or two off. But note the note the analysis he has to give us about about
03:41:33
it's not exactly verbatim but >> she was absolutely certain this what it what what what he said and it also sent
03:41:39
a chill >> up her spine and um but also as an uber mench he could say and do whatever he
03:41:45
wanted to and get this in the high school yearbook Sebastian had described himself as a titan with furious contempt
03:41:54
for the petty strictctures of plebbeans. s and a tif wrote, "Hearing the cries of
03:42:00
the plebs below, Aif descended through the clouds and gazed beusely at the petty struggles of those around him and
03:42:10
laughed." This again, brilliant immaturity, word play used for shock. Okay, let's let's talk about the
03:42:19
murders. According to authorities, sometime in the late evening of July 12th, 1994, Sebastian used a metal
03:42:27
baseball bat to bludgeon Aif's parents and his sister while Aif basically stood by. He may even have been watching at
03:42:36
some points. You've seen a lot of crime scene photos, Peter. We both have. How do you think these compare?
03:42:44
>> These crime scene pictures were among the most gruesome I had ever seen. particularly Aif's father. The first
03:42:52
picture I saw was of Sultana Rafé, Aif's mother. Um, who would have known that Sultana at that time of day would have
03:43:02
been down unpacking boxes cuz they had they had moved into this new house. Latif would know that. And it's believed
03:43:09
that she was attacked first. Her head was crushed from behind. She probably had no idea that this killer was
03:43:16
approaching her. She's lying on her stomach. Uh fascinating that too that her head was covered in a scarf. And
03:43:25
investigators will tell you that when a killer knows the victim and particularly
03:43:29
if it's someone close to them that they often cover the head because they just don't want to look at the face,
03:43:35
>> right? >> And so we move on then upstairs. The killer then moved upstairs and Tariq
03:43:42
Aif's father, 56 years old at the time, he was sleeping on his back uh and his head was pulverized by several dozen
03:43:53
blows at least um investigators believe. And this was as savage a rage killing as
03:44:01
I have ever seen. The third one was Basma. She's 20 years old. Why would they save Basma for last?
03:44:11
Well, she couldn't talk >> and uh she uh was autistic and the killer entered her room and this
03:44:21
uh turned into a bit of a struggle because she was physically strong and she was running and trying to get away
03:44:28
and was being being hit. And one neighbor heard, and this is so disturbing, what he described as a
03:44:37
mooing sound coming from inside the Rafé house. And we know today, and investigators believe that noise was
03:44:47
Bosma crying out as she fought for her life. When investigators got into the room,
03:44:54
they noticed she had defensive wounds all over her hands. uh her skull had been smashed in and many of her teeth
03:45:01
had been knocked out. So this was a terrifying, horrible, drawn out uh death for Bosma.
03:45:09
>> So incredibly brutal. I mean, one of the detectives said somebody went off the
03:45:14
deep end and once they started killing, either enjoyed it or couldn't stop themselves.
03:45:22
Two neighbors even heard the pounding of the bat. >> Yeah. One thought they were must be
03:45:28
putting up big paintings because they were having to hit the wall so hard. >> Why would Sebastian be so brutal about
03:45:37
these killings? >> This is something that um I don't really have the answer for this one. People
03:45:44
have often wondered and the investigators did on this considering what Sebastian had talked about killing
03:45:51
and wondering what it was like that that this was a thrill kill, >> right? Uh, we know that Sebastian had
03:45:57
starred in a high school play called Rope, which was turned into a movie. >> One of my favorite films.
03:46:03
>> Mine too. Directed by Alfred Hitchcock. The play and his film are about two young friends much like Sebastian and
03:46:10
Aif, who strangle a friend with a rope for the thrill of it, >> right? To see what it's like.
03:46:15
>> And so, there's similarities between what he acted out on stage and what was occurring in that house. Okay, let let's
03:46:22
take a break and when we come back we'll talk about why prosecutors think Sebastian and Aif committed these
03:46:28
horrible murders. The answer is chilling on so many levels. The senior deputy prosecutor on the case
03:46:41
against Sebastian Burns and Aifra Fay called the murders absolutely savage. What reason did they have to commit
03:46:50
these gruesome murders? >> Well, we know Sebastian had expressed an interest in killing someone someday to
03:46:56
see what it felt like. And in this case, um, Aif's parents, uh, had some money and they had life insurance as well. And
03:47:05
I think money did play a role in this. And uh Aif had this difficult relationship with his father who was
03:47:12
deeply religious and and he had also expressed kind of a resentment of his autistic sister Basma. He called her
03:47:20
gross and said he never really liked her and prosecutors said that he would mock
03:47:25
and he would mimic her in front of her. Um so money that that to me I think is at the heart of this.
03:47:35
>> I think you're right. And with a teeth saying at one point that he wanted to be
03:47:40
able to live the life he wanted to do to live and the money would would allow him
03:47:45
to do that. >> Right. Right. You asked a tie about his relationship with his family and his
03:47:51
answer left me cold. >> How would you describe your relationship with your parents?
03:47:58
Um, I we had uh I I was close closer to my mom than probably anyone I ever have been or will ever be close to. Um
03:48:09
uh I loved both my parents. Um I admired my father. Uh I had we had a I mean at the same time we had uh all kinds of
03:48:19
arguments uh which I enjoyed having and which I suspect they enjoyed having as well. Um we had um
03:48:27
uh I guess uh I mean it's hard to sum up the relationship that a person has with
03:48:34
one's parents because it's in one sense the closest and most basic sort of relationship that you will ever
03:48:44
have. It constitutes who you are as a human being. Um and uh I mean >> did you love your mom and dad?
03:48:51
>> Yes. Yes. Do you love your sister? >> I would have to say that um I didn't really have a relationship with my
03:49:01
sister. And so I think that if I were to say that I loved my sister, I would sort
03:49:05
of be demeaning the feelings that I had for my parents. >> That is so strange. And he was very
03:49:13
honest about not loving his sister. What were you thinking in that moment? It's it's just a coldness that u that
03:49:22
you know if you dehumanize it's easier to kill. >> Okay. So the these murders were very
03:49:28
well thought out. Clearly not well enough to keep them out of prison, but there was a lot of planning that went
03:49:34
into these murders. What was the plan? >> The idea was to be out uh for the evening in a very noticeable way cuz
03:49:42
they went to a restaurant called the Keg. By the way, Keg is, you know, five miles from where I grew up. I I went
03:49:49
there after while I was covering this case just to have dinner there and see the place. Um, and that's in Factorial,
03:49:57
Washington, which is right off the interstate near Belleview. That's where the movie complex was, where they went
03:50:02
to see The Lion King. And a waiter would later tell police that he remembered the
03:50:06
two underage Canadians trying to order wine. So, they did something that would draw attention where they'd have to show
03:50:12
ID, right? Um, and then when they get to the movie theater, when Sebastian was buying his movie tickets, he goes, "Hey,
03:50:21
you like my shirt?" And his shirt had a big cartoon character, some milkman character on it. And and the ticket
03:50:30
taker remembered Sebastian. Yeah. This odd guy said, "Hey, take a look at my t-shirt." Again, he's registering in
03:50:36
people's minds. He's creating a a memory that he was there. and a thief was wearing an army jacket. Once inside the
03:50:43
movie theater, people said that they were obnoxious. They were drawing attention to themselves. They were
03:50:48
talking loudly. At one point, one of them went up to the screen and tried to pull the movie curtains apart again. Get
03:50:55
everyone's attention. Yeah, I remember those guys. I saw them there. >> Then after they snuck out, they
03:51:00
committed the crimes. Investigators believe that after the murder, the boys went out on this uh tour of eeries to
03:51:09
try to to try to draw attention to themselves as much as they could so people would remember them if
03:51:16
investigators came to question employees. And their first stop was a diner where they paid with a $10 bill
03:51:25
for basically about a $3 meal and leaving a $7 tip. and the waitress remembered them when they end up also
03:51:34
then going out to a nightclub that that was closing at 2 am and they demanded to
03:51:38
be let in but they were not again people would remember yeah those two boys they
03:51:42
were shouting at us let us into the club everywhere they went they wanted to create a memory with an employee that if
03:51:49
authorities came and remember over and over the police questioned the neighbors in the hopes that they would change
03:51:56
their timelines because for investigators this was a big problem. On one side of the Rafé house, there was a
03:52:03
woman named Julie. And she was a very meticulous woman who every night went through a routine that began at a
03:52:12
certain time where, as I recall, she put in a a load of wash and um and then put
03:52:19
it in the dryer and then she would read for a particular amount of time, usually
03:52:23
even the same amount of pages each night. and she would look at her at her clock and she would go to bed at exactly
03:52:30
the same time. And based on her story, the boys were at that movie theater at the time that she was an ear witness to
03:52:42
the murders inside the Rafé house. When she heard all of this noise coming from there, the boys weren't there. They were
03:52:49
at the movie theater. And that is not disputed. So, so she heard pounding at a time when those boys were allegedly
03:52:58
spotted at the movie theater. >> Yeah. This is before any of the encounters with the waitresses and
03:53:04
everything else, >> right? >> She never changed her her timeline, but investigators just simply said, "Well,
03:53:11
we're going to say and we'll say in court that we just think she's wrong. She just had her times wrong, even
03:53:16
though she won't change and that that she was wrong." But it created an opening for the defense. And there was
03:53:21
another neighbor who heard it and believed it was also at the same time. So Sebastian and Aif claimed they
03:53:29
entered the Rafé family home uh at around 2:00 a.m. and that Sebastian was the first to see Aif's mother lying in a
03:53:37
pool of blood. They admit that they never touched her. They didn't even bother to see if she was still alive or
03:53:44
try to help her. >> How do you know she's still not breathing? How do you not turn her over
03:53:49
to check if she's breathing to see if there's something you could do? >> I don't know. I don't know. And
03:53:58
I don't know. And maybe that was a really cowardly thing to do. It was just a reflex. I I cannot describe to you how
03:54:06
shocking it was. Just how completely confounding it was. And there was nothing sensical about my
03:54:23
reaction at all. >> It's been alleged you didn't want to touch the body because you didn't want
03:54:28
to get blood on you because you that would wreck your alibi. It would wreck the stage that you had set there to fool
03:54:40
police. That's completely wrong. I mean, if you're not the killer, you're you're trying to save that person,
03:54:47
right? You don't care if you get blood on you. >> Right. Right. Absolutely. >> During the investigation, Sebastian was
03:54:54
caught on tape saying that he was naked when he committed the murders. What's that all about?
03:54:59
>> Well, think about it. If you're wearing clothes, you're going to get blood spatter on those clothing, and that can
03:55:05
turn into evidence. Uh, and investigators concluded fairly early on, this is just one of the bizarre things.
03:55:12
He's never heard of this before in any murder case I've covered that the killer stepped into the shower and took a
03:55:19
shower. And what did investigators find in that in that shower stall on the drain? There were 21 hairs recovered and
03:55:29
they were all from Sebastian Burns and uh and the walls of the shower uh had blood on
03:55:40
them. It was tested and that was Tariq Rafase, Aif's dad. But what killer would step in to take a shower, particularly
03:55:50
if it was a stranger? Because that killer would have known, hm, a teeth's not here. He could come home. I better
03:55:56
get out of this house as quickly as possible. >> Good point. >> What killer would step in to take a
03:56:00
shower if that killer didn't know there wasn't anyone left to come home? >> Right. if if because Aif was there. He
03:56:08
was alive and he was one of the two killers. >> So they discover Aif's mother and then
03:56:16
Sebastian calls 911. When the police arrived, uh Aif's sister Bosma was still alive. They could hear her moaning. The
03:56:26
boys would have heard her too. And you asked them why they didn't try to save Bosma's life. Let let's listen to a Tif.
03:56:35
Your sister was in the other room. You knew she was injured. You could hear her moaning. How do you not go in and give
03:56:40
first aid? You could have saved your sister's life. >> Well, for one, I don't really know first
03:56:46
aid. And I didn't even think of it. I didn't even >> You're a bright guy. If someone's
03:56:51
bleeding, you know how to stop bleeding, right? >> You're right. >> You know that for the average person, it
03:56:56
sounds terrible that you didn't go in there. It sounds like you wanted her to die.
03:57:03
Well, I suppose that if I had planned these murders, I would certainly have rushed in and made heroic efforts to uh
03:57:11
save her. Um, unfortunately, I had not planned these uh murders. I didn't commit these murders, and Sebastian
03:57:20
didn't either. And I was I acted in a cowardly and shameful way which I felt ashamed of even in the days immediately
03:57:30
following and have never since ceased feeling shameful of. But those were my reactions under pressure I
03:57:41
guess. >> Oh Peter, where to start? It was a decision. It wasn't a decision if he had
03:57:48
planned the murders. But unfortunately, he didn't plan the murders. Is this a confession of sorts?
03:57:55
>> I'm not quite sure. I mean, so in other words, yeah, I he uh planned it. Sebastian did. I would have done a much
03:58:02
better job. Uh it's it's stupid that that answer is so clumsy and so void of humanity.
03:58:10
[Music] [Music] Okay. So, Peter, police focused on the boys from the very beginning. Why?
03:58:24
>> Well, let's go down the list. You know, they discovered the bodies. The murders
03:58:28
didn't look like a robbery gone bad. They both talked about there must have been a break-in. There were no signs of
03:58:32
any forced entry at the house. There was an overkill situation. No burglar would
03:58:38
do something like that. And cops became even more suspicious when the night after the murder, Sebastian and a thief
03:58:45
were spotted at a local video store renting movies. They didn't seem at all phased by the gruesome murder scene they
03:58:51
had they had discovered. And police were also struck by how many details they remembered about their night out on the
03:58:58
town. Remember all the waitresses and all the things, but they couldn't recall what they did when they got home and
03:59:03
found Aif's family beaten to death. Yeah, they weren't exactly acting like teenagers who were in a state of shock.
03:59:10
So, let's talk about the defense for a minute. The boys and their defense team believed that Aif's father was
03:59:17
assassinated and that his wife and daughter were collateral damage. What What can you tell us about that?
03:59:22
>> Well, Aif's father, Tariq, he was prominent and active in the local Muslim community and he offended more
03:59:30
conservative Muslims. And how is that? As an engineer, Tariq Rafé, he calculated true east and determined that
03:59:40
all the mosques in the Pacific Northwest and British Columbia, Canada, were not properly facing Mecca,
03:59:48
>> you know, and Muslims must pray toward Mecca. And this is crucial. And so he said everyone was going to have to move
03:59:56
their prayer mats one degree. doesn't sound like a big deal, but for some, this could be blasphemous. This could be
04:00:05
how how dare you, we you're telling us that we've been praying in the wrong direction.
04:00:10
>> Um, and Belleview police ended up getting three tips, that the murders may have been related to fundamentalists who
04:00:17
wanted Tariq and his family dead. A Canadian officer told them that an informant had warned him that there was
04:00:25
a hit out on an East Indian family in Belleview. Now, the Rafé family, they're not East Indians, they're from Pakistan,
04:00:34
but still the context and the nature of that tip is strongly suggesting that that they could have been the targets.
04:00:45
>> Right. Also, the Seattle Police Intelligence Division reported that they believed the family may have been killed
04:00:51
by an extremist group called Al Fukra. And an FBI informant told them that he knew an imam who ordered the murders and
04:01:01
knew a man who said he committed the murders. He said he even saw a baseball bat in in the trunk of his car and
04:01:09
believed that that was the murder weapon. Um, the cops hadn't even publicized that the weapon was a metal
04:01:15
baseball bat yet. >> I mean, all this is just so intriguing. >> It seems like the Belleview police kind
04:01:22
of like blew that all off. Do you think it's possible that they just didn't pay attention to that at all?
04:01:28
>> I believe with all that has happened in the world, this would this would be checked out. And at the time, I I think
04:01:34
it wasn't properly checked out. On the day that Aif Rafé's parents and his sister were laid to rest, Aif was
04:01:44
nowhere to be found, he and his buddy Sebastian Burns were on a bus on their way to Sebastian's home in Vancouver,
04:01:52
Canada. >> My dad was very worried about what the Belleview police were doing. He'd called
04:01:59
a friend of his who was a lawyer. He told his friend uh some of the things that the police had been saying to him
04:02:06
and it was pretty clear that the police were treating us as suspects. His friend, who was a lawyer, said if it was
04:02:14
my kid, I'd drive down there tonight and pick him up myself. My dad asked me did
04:02:20
I want him to come and drive down that night and pick him up myself after after he told me that. And I told him, "No,
04:02:26
it's okay. We'll catch a bus back the next day." but he was very concerned that we come back to Canada as soon as
04:02:31
possible. >> How did the Belleview police feel about their prime suspects fleeing the
04:02:38
country? >> This is a part of the story that really drives me freaking crazy. Um, they
04:02:44
didn't have any basis to continue holding them. They'd been interviewed numerous times and the truth is they
04:02:53
didn't flee. These boys didn't flee. A representative from the Canadian consulate informed the Bellev police of
04:03:00
their plans that the boys would be picked up by their father and taken back to Vancouver, British Columbia. And they
04:03:06
said, "Is that all right?" And they were told, "Yes, it's all right." She then tells the boys, this consulate officer
04:03:14
tells the boys, "It's okay to go." And they leave. That is many things in this world, but that is not fleeing. But the
04:03:21
media reported it as them fleeing, which did not make them look good. So there wasn't enough evidence to hold them.
04:03:28
When they got to Canada, did Sebastian's family believe that the boys were innocent?
04:03:33
>> Oh, absolutely. They believed that this was an impossibility that it that this
04:03:38
could have happened. They believed they were innocent and they were just being set upon by a police department in a
04:03:45
wealthy community that was under enormous pressure to solve this case. But again, the boys didn't really help
04:03:51
themselves at all. They behaved very badly. They used money from the Rafé family estate to rent and then buy a
04:03:59
Mustang convertible and go on a road trip. >> Yeah. And there was a memorial service
04:04:04
for the Rafé family in Vancouver. It was covered by media from around the world.
04:04:10
And the boys were there and and they decided to when they came out of the mosque to to run to a car and they were
04:04:17
laughing and covering up their faces and it was just a shocking shocking moment.
04:04:25
>> What was so funny? I guess, you know, it was the media that was funny and it was it was the the
04:04:34
sheer grotesqueness of I mean, these were people who were literally chasing me down to ask me, "Why won't you cop or
04:04:42
cooperate with the police?" Um, I guess the sheer gall, I suppose, of of being chased down at a memorial service and
04:04:52
asked questions by reporters who really cared nothing, I suspect, for my family,
04:04:58
for the murders, for anything, but getting a rise essentially, out of me. Uh, it just seemed it just seemed
04:05:08
absolutely grotesque. And I I suppose I couldn't help laughing at it. >> You know, when I watched uh the clips of
04:05:18
of that memorial service, it looked to me like Sebastian gave the finger to one of the camera crews and they just they
04:05:25
looked like rock stars walking into some venue. It was just bizarre. But you know
04:05:30
what's interesting is to some people they actually looked like traumatized teenagers. Some people believe that if
04:05:37
they were trying to get away with murder, they would have been crying and acting, you know, upset and uh and
04:05:44
weeping at the grave sites, not acting like like the idiots that they were acting like. Do you think they were in
04:05:51
shock? Well, there was a behavioral expert who was ready to testify for the defense, but but this man was never
04:05:59
called, and he said that this goofy, bizarre behavior is actually common in extremely traumatic events with boys
04:06:07
whose brains aren't yet fully formed that you'll get that kind of behavior. >> So, no matter what people believed about
04:06:14
these boys, they became clearly notorious. It seems like everybody knew who they were and what they were
04:06:20
suspected of doing. >> I mean, Sebastian testified that he w he now is almost like the best he and Aif
04:06:28
were the best known men in British Columbia because of all the the media coverage. He couldn't get a job and he
04:06:34
couldn't go back to college and Aif couldn't get back to school due due to the attention of this case. So they
04:06:40
ended up they rent a house in Vancouver with two high school friends including a
04:06:45
close friend who ends up playing an important role in this case, Jimmy Mioshi. Uh and they would play loud
04:06:53
music all night long. People would call the RCMP, the >> the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
04:06:59
>> Yeah. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police. And and the RCMP at this point decides,
04:07:03
you know, let's open up our own investigation, >> right? And so they decide to bug the
04:07:09
house that the boys were living in. They also bugged uh Sebastian's cell phone. And uh yeah, and they they realized that
04:07:18
that they were smart boys and that they had to be smarter than the boys. So they
04:07:23
used what they were what was called in Canada at that point the Mr. Big operation.
04:07:29
>> Detective Bob Thompson told us you had committed the perfect murder. There was
04:07:34
no evidence at the house linking you to this crime. And if you hadn't gone back to Canada and gotten involved in this
04:07:42
undercover operation, you never would have been arrested. Do you think about that?
04:07:47
>> Oh, I think about that often. >> And that sting operation would prove to be the boy's undoing. That's next time
04:07:55
on Killer Conversation. 48 hours Killer Conversation is hosted and produced by me, Judy Rybeck. Our
04:08:04
story editor is Mora Walls. Alan Pang oversees recording, mixing and sound design, factchecking, and additional
04:08:12
production support from Rebecca Laflam. And special thanks to 48 hours executive
04:08:18
producer Judy Tiggard and Paramount Podcast Vice President Megan Marcus. Follow and listen to Killer Conversation
04:08:26
on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. If you liked this episode, please rate and review on Apple
04:08:33
Podcasts or Spotify. Follow Killer Conversation on the Free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.
04:08:50
48 hours continues. I think that everyone who knew Sebastian thought that he was going on to do
04:09:08
something interesting with his life. Yeah. People expected him to be a leader, to do something interesting and
04:09:15
um I hope one day he will. [Music] Sebastian Burns and Aif Rafé should have been celebrating at the West Vancouver
04:09:26
High School 10-year reunion. Instead, they had become the class of 93's most infamous graduates.
04:09:40
Prosecutors say just one year out of high school, these brilliant best friends tried to commit the perfect
04:09:47
murder. It was a brutal crime. >> There's blood all over his face. >> That shocked the upscale suburb of
04:09:55
Belleview, Washington. A Tif's mother, father, and sister bludgeoned to death. The motive, insurance money.
04:10:08
The boys got away and were living in Canada until undercover police officers caught them on tape boasting about how
04:10:16
they did it. probably three people at once. Uh, otherwise when I did it. >> Now, on the eve of their murder trial, a
04:10:27
judge would decide if a jury would get to hear those chilling confessions. [Music]
04:10:34
I do not find the undercover officer's conduct in this case shocking or outrageous. Although they were
04:10:40
deceitful, persistent, and aggressive. They engaged in tricks, but not dirty tricks.
04:10:49
It was a controversial ruling allowing the boy's own words to be used against them.
04:10:55
>> Who should you go first? >> And would set the tone for the whole trial. Just how powerful
04:11:04
is the impact of this video of these two boys confessing to murders. >> It's incredibly powerful. When I first
04:11:11
saw it, I was taken aback. I was shocked. There are two young men seemingly laughing about slaughtering
04:11:20
three people and saying, "I did it." >> And while the confessions may be shocking, the defense says they're not
04:11:27
true. >> This case is about what happens when a presumption of guilt, when a gut feeling
04:11:36
that you have the right suspects takes over from logical and objective evaluation of the evidence. This case is
04:11:45
about what happens when you pursue individuals as opposed to pursuing the truth.
04:11:51
>> Finally, in November 2003, more than 9 years after the Rafé family murders, Sebastian and Aif get their day in
04:12:00
court. >> The juryy's going to finally hear the story of what really happened to the
04:12:05
Rafé family and they'll hear the story of Sebastian and innocence. >> But prosecutors had a very different
04:12:12
story to tell. Sebastian Burns is young, thoughtful, charismatic, manipulative, and most importantly, a
04:12:22
killer. A brutal killer. You've been portrayed as a monster. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> Maniacal,
04:12:30
plotting, a murderer. >> Are you those things? >> No. The state's theory is we want to make
04:12:39
the jurors hate these two young men. Essentially, they make it a test of character as opposed to a test of
04:12:46
evidence. >> And character is at the heart of the prosecution's case. >> All rise. Superior court is now in
04:12:53
session. >> The defendants were two young men who believed they could commit the perfect
04:13:01
murder. >> Roger David Heheiser opened for the state. Ladies and gentlemen, what you
04:13:06
will hear in the end is that it was this very hubris that sealed their fate and their arrogant and unrealistic belief
04:13:14
that they were smart enough to achieve mastery over the police and their investigation. He zeroed in on the piece
04:13:21
of evidence that launched the case and for the first time revealed a startling flaw in the boy's plan.
04:13:29
>> There's uh I need uh an ambulance. They made that 911 call too quickly. >> They're
04:13:38
we think they're dead. >> My belief is that they just walked straight into the house and made the 911
04:13:43
call. >> The timing was critical. So, we asked Detective Thompson to retrace their
04:13:50
drive home from downtown Seattle where they were last seen that night. >> Uh 18 minutes.
04:13:59
>> What does that tell you? And 18 minutes would give them three minutes in the house.
04:14:05
>> And three minutes, said the prosecutors, was not enough time in the house to find
04:14:10
the bodies and do all the things Sebastian and Aif told the police they did. And think about what they had to do
04:14:18
in that 3 minutes. Three minutes to arrive home, pull the family car into the garage, enter the
04:14:26
home through the garage, discover and comprehend that Sultana, Tariq, and Bosma have been brutally attacked and
04:14:34
laid dead in three different areas of that house. The revelation startled the defense, but
04:14:42
Song Richardson was thinking on her feet. asking you, how long does it take to walk into a house and see these two
04:14:50
brutally butchered bodies of a TE's family and then run downstairs and call 911 >> and turn the prosecution's argument on
04:14:58
its head? >> How long is 3 minutes? Well, let's see. That was about a minute and a half.
04:15:19
>> But remember, it wasn't just the murders. In that 3 minutes, the boys also had to figure out there'd been a
04:15:26
burglary and that a VCR and discman were missing. >> There's been some kind of breakin. I
04:15:32
hear the voice of a person who has contrived a story that can only be explained by somebody who knew very well what had
04:15:43
happened in the Rafé family home. I was out of my mind at the time. I was totally in shock, totally
04:15:53
staggered and and confounded and and was almost totally hysterical. In a case where every minute matters,
04:16:09
the defense bolsters their claim of the boy's innocence by playing up statements
04:16:14
the neighbors on both sides of the Rafé house gave to police in the days following the murders. The neighbors
04:16:21
initially said that they heard pounding coming from inside the Rafé house at a time when the boys have an airtight
04:16:28
alibi. You were standing in this driveway and that's >> Mark Sidell lived right next door to the
04:16:33
Rafes. How loud were the bangs you were hearing? >> Um, they're pretty hard hits
04:16:42
a little bit harder to need hang a a picture. >> Sidel says back then he didn't think a
04:16:48
murder was taking place next door and figured the Rafes who had just moved in were probably unpacking. I sort of
04:16:55
thought about going over and helping him so they could go to sleep, but luckily that night I didn't.
04:17:00
>> The Rafa's other nextoor neighbor, Julie Rackley, testified that she also heard
04:17:06
sounds. >> Initially, I thought it just sounded like hammering. It had sort of an odd
04:17:12
resonance to it. >> The neighbors who heard these sounds, described them in great detail, and
04:17:18
verified what they were for the police all heard them well before 10:00 at night. And at 10:00, Sebastian and Aif
04:17:27
were still seen at the movie theater. >> If the jury believes these initial reports that Mark Sidell and Judy
04:17:34
Rackley gave to police, your case could be in trouble. >> Absolutely. You can't be in two places
04:17:41
at one time. There's no debating that point. There are two independent neighbors who separately heard the
04:17:49
murder happen at the end of twilight before 10:00 and we were known to be on the other
04:17:57
side of town when that happened. It was impossible for us to have committed this
04:18:01
crime. >> Prosecutors contend it is possible. Even though the boys were seen going to the
04:18:07
950 movie, there's no proof that they stayed. Is there a way for these two boys to exit the theater without drawing
04:18:14
attention to themselves? Say during the movie. >> Jose Martinez sold the boys movie
04:18:20
tickets that night and he showed us how they could sneak out from this theater. >> Go out this exit behind the curtain or
04:18:27
the other one over there. >> So if they slip through this curtain, you're not letting any light into the
04:18:32
theater. >> Correct. >> Then up these stairs >> and out this exit door. >> Two doors outside. The defense protested
04:18:40
that even though it could have happened that way, there was no proof that it did
04:18:45
and that prosecutors were grasping at straws to get a conviction. >> They sifted through Sebastian's history
04:18:52
and his life and a chief's history and his life and tried to find anything that would make them look like bad people. In
04:19:02
fact, months into the trial, prosecutors brought this intriguing surprise witness
04:19:07
from the boy's past who said she had evidence that could turn the case. But first, they would have to convince the
04:19:15
judge to let the jury hear what she had to say. >> You swear or affirm. >> Nascll shift was a friend from the boy's
04:19:24
high school days who had dated Sebastian. What was this comment that Sebastian Burns made that that stood out
04:19:32
at you? >> He said, "I want to try to kill someone one day to see how how it would feel
04:19:40
because I think I would find it enjoyable." >> She claimed a late night conversation
04:19:45
she'd had years ago with the boys in her bedroom had planted the seeds for murder.
04:19:51
>> Did you think he was serious? He wasn't laughing and he said it in a serious tone.
04:19:57
>> Sebastian doesn't deny having the conversation, but emphatically says he wasn't serious.
04:20:04
>> It's uh a oneline paraphrase of a sarcasm from a hippie- dippy 3:00 a.m. conversation 10 years ago, and I can't
04:20:14
remember enough about it to defend myself against it. If anyone would reflect on that and think, imagine if
04:20:21
the worst parts of my personality, maybe the worst moments when I was 18 years old, that I would be reminded of them
04:20:32
for the next nine years of my life and that's that in the public eye would be the person that I'd become. I think
04:20:39
people would really shudder. It's a nightmare. >> Thank you for your time and your
04:20:43
testimony. It was certainly damning testimony, but the jury would never hear it.
04:20:50
>> There is no question. Had I known about this last spring, I would have admitted this.
04:20:56
Four months into this thing, I can't stop this process and let everyone dash to the four winds to try and research
04:21:02
this. The judge's decision flustered prosecutors. But there's another witness more
04:21:12
powerful and much more damning. >> You swear or affirm that the testimony of >> the friend the boys swore would never
04:21:20
betray them. [Music] >> Do you recognize Mr. Burns and Mr. Rafé are in the courtroom here today?
04:21:36
>> Yes, I do. It had been years since Jimmy Moshi had seen his high school buddies Sebastian
04:21:44
and Aif. Jimmy had moved to Japan and was living under another name when prosecutors
04:21:53
forced him to return to Seattle and face his friends at their murder trial. >> He was in no uncertain terms conflicted.
04:22:02
In fact, he spent the last two or three years of his life trying to avoid the eventuality of being compelled to come
04:22:08
to court and testify about his against his two best friends. Jimmy could have easily been sitting next to his best
04:22:14
friends charged with a crime. Back in 1995, during the undercover operation, Jimmy was also a target of the RCMP.
04:22:25
The RCMP believed Moshi helped the boys plan the murder of the Rafé family and they wanted him to give a full
04:22:33
confession on tape just like his friends had done. >> You know what went on down there in that
04:22:38
house? >> What went on? Yeah. >> But no matter how much he was pressed for details, Moshi refused to implicate
04:22:46
his friends in the murder. >> Okay. You know who killed the parents? Yeah. Who is that what you want? Yeah.
04:22:52
And um I just want I just wanted you to explain to me exactly the purposes of you wanting to know is that so we can
04:22:59
establish this kind of totally for trust totally for trust. >> Totally. >> In some ways was Jimmy Moshi the
04:23:05
smartest of them all. >> He's not in jail. [Music] >> In fact, Jimmy was arrested with
04:23:16
Sebastian and a interrogated by authorities in Canada. He was told that he might face the death penalty himself.
04:23:25
He was told that his family, his job, his future would be ruined unless he said that Sebastian and confessed to
04:23:33
him. >> Back then, Jimmy told the police that his friends were innocent >> at the time of your arrest on July 31,
04:23:41
1995. Were they honest answers? They were answers that I guess the intention of a lot of those answers was to to
04:23:54
protect Sebastian and Aif >> at that point on July 31, 1995. Why is it that you gave answers that were to
04:24:03
designed to protect Sebastian and Aif? >> I guess it was also in a way to protect
04:24:10
myself. Um, but in general because I didn't want Sebastian Natif to get whatever arrested and potentially
04:24:21
convicted. But under increasing pressure, Moshi eventually agreed to cooperate. And in exchange, he was
04:24:29
granted immunity from charges of conspiracy to commit murder. Suddenly, he began to reveal more to the
04:24:38
police about what he knew. But now the question loomed. Would Moshi betray his best friends?
04:24:52
>> Had this subject ever come up before, the notion of of Aif Rafé killing his family?
04:24:58
>> No, this was this was the first time. In a halting voice that often dropped to
04:25:05
a whisper, Jimmy told the court that it was during a drive from Seattle to Vancouver when Aif first brought up the
04:25:13
idea of killing his family. >> What was your response to the notion of Hatif's notion of killing his family? I
04:25:23
guess I was listening and um I I mean he was my friend at the time and I guess in a way I was neutral on
04:25:34
that notion. >> On the stand, Jimmy recounted a discussion about how the boys would
04:25:40
commit the crime. >> You remember which methods were discussed? I remember something about um
04:25:48
gassing the house and I remember discussion about um I guess using a baseball bat.
04:25:57
>> What do you remember about why uh why a baseball bat could or should be used?
04:26:04
>> I guess a quick and painless way of killing someone. I don't think there's any question that he was a
04:26:12
sounding board for them. >> The prosecution says Jimmy consulted on an especially chilling part of the plan.
04:26:21
Sebastian and Natif stayed here at the Rafé family home during the 5 days before the murders and it was no
04:26:28
coincidence. It was part of the plan, prosecutors say to commit the perfect crime. if they had been living in the
04:26:36
house previously that any kind of hair or whatever samples um that were collected after um wouldn't um
04:26:47
necessarily mean that they had done it >> by virtue of their being in the house for several days. Any fingerprint that
04:26:57
would be found or could be found could be explained as a result of there being there having been there for several
04:27:03
days. any hair evidence that might be found could be explained for them having been in the house for several days prior
04:27:09
to the murders. >> It's diabolical, but it's pretty clever. >> Damn clever. >> Finally, Jimmy gave the prosecution what
04:27:18
they needed. >> He said that a watched while Sebastian bludgeon the family. And I remember hearing about how
04:27:29
um I guess a Tif was pretty distraught and that um from the moment that Sebastian had
04:27:40
struck his mother that it was kind of a there's no going back. And >> how hard was it to sit and listen to
04:27:48
Jimmy Moshi's testimony? It >> was enormously difficult. I think it was difficult for him as well. Um, as I say,
04:27:55
I I am outraged that he did it. Um, but at the same time, I I think I I reserve my
04:28:09
real outrage for the people who forced him to do it. >> Did you discuss a plan to murder the
04:28:15
Rafé family with Jimmy Moshi? >> No, we didn't. Never. >> Why did Jimmy Moshi testify that you
04:28:20
did? because he had a life sentence held to his head. And if he didn't say what the police and
04:28:30
the prosecution wanted him to say, that life sentence was going to go off. >> It's the first time in 8 years that you
04:28:36
have ever said anything like that, isn't it, sir? >> Um, I'm not sure. >> And isn't what happened?
04:28:43
>> The defense tried to hammer back. Jimmy once lied to save his friends, so he could be easily lying now to save
04:28:52
himself. >> You're making it up as you go along, sir. That's why you're saying things for
04:28:57
the first time. >> No, I don't believe I am. >> Do you believe that Jimmy Moshi is a
04:29:02
liar? >> Jimmy Moshi is a self-admitted liar. Jimmy Moshi acknowledges that he has
04:29:10
lied. The question will be how many lies does Jimmy Moshi get to tell? >> Mr. Moshi, this conversation was on.
04:29:18
>> The defense needed to come back with something strong and they had an arsenal
04:29:23
of forensic evidence that flew in the face of Moshi's testimony. They told the jury that there were three
04:29:31
killers in the house that night. Experts analyzed the patterns of blood on the wall and found drops everywhere
04:29:39
except this area where there was no blood, indicating another killer may have stood there during the attack. They
04:29:48
also said a pillow was moved during the bludgeoning. >> So we have killer number one moving the
04:29:53
pillow. We have killer number two bludgeoning Dr. Rafé with the bat. And then we have killer number three who has
04:30:01
to remain in the exact same place throughout the entire duration of the attack on Dr. Rafé.
04:30:10
>> And there was even more tangible evidence, a single hair on Tariq Rafé's bed.
04:30:17
>> According to the police officers there, this was an important hair because this
04:30:22
hair, according to the Belleview Police Department, would tell them who committed this crime. Did it match Aif?
04:30:29
>> No. >> Sebastian? >> No. >> Sultana? >> No. >> Bosma? >> No. >> Tariq? >> No. We don't know whether that hair
04:30:36
originated from someone who sat in the same seat uh that Sebastian Burns sat in at the movie theater or whether it was
04:30:42
picked up by Dr. Rafé at his workplace or how it got on that bed >> or if it was a hair from the killer or
04:30:49
if it was a hair from the killer. Prosecutors also added DNA evidence needs to fit a pattern and appear in
04:30:58
more than one place at a crime scene. That DNA profile appeared nowhere else in that house. There was absolutely no
04:31:05
other pattern of trace evidence that could even re be remotely suggested to be related to that hair. That was an
04:31:12
isolated hair. So with the forensic evidence inconclusive, the case comes down to whom the jury
04:31:22
would believe. You're saying the testimony of one of my best friends. Don't listen to that. My
04:31:30
own words on the vide tape. Don't listen to that. Just take my word for it. We didn't do it.
04:31:40
>> Defense calls Sebastian Burns. All right for the jury. >> More than 100 witnesses would take the
04:31:57
stand in the state versus Burns and Rafé. >> Could you kill again? Circumstances are
04:32:03
right. >> Finally, Canada's most secret undercover operation would be exposed before the
04:32:09
jury. And so would the question that had lingered for so many years. >> Why would you confess to a murder you
04:32:18
didn't do? [Music] >> At that point, it seemed like the only safe choice. It seemed like the best
04:32:25
choice. Why on earth would anyone confess to a murder they didn't do unless they were petrified?
04:32:32
[Music] That they were actually going to be killed themselves or people they loved
04:32:38
were going to come to some type of harm. >> The defense set out to prove that the
04:32:45
scales were tipped from the beginning. Professional liars. >> 1975 I was uh first trained in undercover
04:32:53
work >> against teenage boys. Have you worked as the primary undercover operator before?
04:32:59
>> Yes. >> I am frightened by the fact that this kind of undercover operation can be used
04:33:06
ostensively to search for the truth when it is built in whole on lies and manipulation and threats.
04:33:15
>> Mr. Burns, come on forward. >> Sebastian would have to convince the jury to believe him now and not to
04:33:22
believe what he said on those tapes. that I was in way over my head and I did not want to be involved with these guys.
04:33:31
>> I was upset with myself for having agreed to drive the car. And >> Sebastian began his side of the story
04:33:38
with the first assignment from the crime box, transporting that stolen car. >> What was your reaction when you heard
04:33:46
that they wanted you to drive the stolen car? >> Well, pretty quickly I felt that I've
04:33:50
been tricked. Sebastian, why didn't you just look at him and say, "I am out of here. Walk away."
04:33:56
>> No, but there is no walking away. >> You want to know what I [ __ ] uh did my time for? I told the guy when it came
04:34:03
time for court. The person that could finger me, they're not around anymore. >> Sebastian says he couldn't walk away
04:34:11
from criminals whose power seemed to be so farreaching. I believe that if I'd cross them or if they weren't happy with
04:34:19
me or if they thought I was going to betray them that they would have me killed.
04:34:22
>> I just assume that you know you with your connections that if I were to you around, okay, I would just assume that I
04:34:30
would wake up one day with a bullet in my head >> on the stand. Song Richardson pressed
04:34:35
Sergeant Hlett about his scare tactics. Sebastian could easily, very easily have
04:34:42
believed that you and your organization would hurt people if they crossed you, right?
04:34:49
>> Uh, he he could have believed it. Yes. >> And that you would kill people if they
04:34:53
ever crossed you, right? >> Well, I've never said that. >> It goes to Sebastian Burn's imagination.
04:35:02
Let him sit back when he goes home at night and imagine whatever he chooses to. >> Is there any time in which your
04:35:10
character directly threatens Sebastian Burns? >> No, never. >> The idea was not to frighten Sebastian,
04:35:17
but to make him comfortable talking about murder to other murderers. >> I know he did that. That's why you're
04:35:25
here for yourself. >> Could Sebastian Burns have walked away from his relationship with you at any
04:35:31
time he chose to do so? >> Without a doubt, he didn't have to return our calls. >> Hey, it's Sebastian leaving. Message
04:35:37
number three. >> Sebastian stayed, the defense argued, because he believed the Belleview police
04:35:44
were fabricating evidence against him. >> I'm going to show you something. You never saw this from me. That phony memo
04:35:51
detailing the evidence that the cops had against the boys. Just read this piece of
04:35:57
>> the undercover operators only offered to destroy the evidence. If Sebastian confessed,
04:36:04
>> you don't say to Sebastian, "Look, Sebastian, if you didn't do it, just say so. We'll still deal with that evidence
04:36:13
for you. We'll deal with it so you won't get convicted. But if you didn't do it,
04:36:18
just just say so. We'll still help. You never said that, right? >> No, I didn't say that because up until
04:36:24
this time, Sebastian Burns had never denied the involvement in the murders to me.
04:36:32
[Music] >> Going into the meeting on July 18th, what was your plan? >> My plan was to claim to be the murderer
04:36:45
that they insisted that they believe that I was. And to be convincing, Sebastian says he studied newspaper
04:36:52
accounts, so he'd know details of the murders. [Music] >> First, >> um, the mother
04:37:04
and dad. >> As the cameras rolled, Sebastian confirmed the police theory that the
04:37:13
weapon was a baseball bat. We use a metal or wouldn't that >> um metal >> and the eerie notion that the killer had
04:37:26
showered before leaving the sar coming off blood making >> and that wasn't the only reason why
04:37:34
detectives found no blood on the boys. >> How do you uh get on the face and have
04:37:40
to shower no blood on you? You >> do it. [Music] Sebastian pointed out how he and a teeth
04:37:50
would profit from the crime. >> Whatever money we get, it's like we would invest it in our film. I guess
04:38:01
>> he gave up the most soughtafter clue, the loophole in the alibi. >> You uh do the dirty deed.
04:38:12
um during the movie and I'm going to get you all the trouble you're in. I'm >> flattered.
04:38:20
>> Huh? >> I'm flattered by your attention. >> Aif explained that while Sebastian
04:38:26
killed his family, he staged a breakin. >> What did he do in your house? >> Bre.
04:38:38
You told Hasllett, am I correct, that you committed these murders of the Rafé, the Rafé family during the movie. Am I
04:38:45
right? >> Correct. >> That the VCR was taken to also uh contribute to the simulation of a
04:38:50
breaking and entering. >> That's right. >> You had the alibi of the movie. >> The prosecution had another bombshell
04:38:57
ready to drop on the defense. >> It wasn't the first time Sebastian used a movie as an alibi. You got into a a a
04:39:06
a car collision, didn't you? >> Yes. >> Uh you were driving your family car at the time.
04:39:12
>> That's correct. Yes. >> I mean, you hit a pole in a parking lot. >> Did you own up to it at the time?
04:39:17
>> No, I did not. >> When he was 16, Sebastian staged an elaborate cover up to conceal the fact
04:39:24
that he had wrecked the family car. >> Mr. Burns, the reality is uh what you said about doing was very similar to
04:39:31
what you told Haslett you did in this case. Isn't that correct? >> I told Hlet that we committed a murder,
04:39:37
which we didn't do. >> Well, Mr. Burns, let me stop you there for a moment. >> Roger David Heiser drew a haunting
04:39:43
parallel between the accident scene and the murder scene. Back in high school, Sebastian went to great lengths to make
04:39:52
it seem like someone else did the damage while he was at the movie. But the insurance company caught him in
04:40:02
the cover up. >> And in March of 1992, albeit with this stupid little car crash, what you
04:40:09
decided to do was to pick up the pieces of evidence that were at the scene of this collision. Am I right?
04:40:15
>> Correct. >> You put those back in your car. Am I correct? >> Correct. >> You took them to an entirely different
04:40:21
location in North Vancouver. Am I right? >> Correct. And uh you staged a scene in a
04:40:29
parking lot. Am I right? >> Basically, >> you manipulated the evidence to appear
04:40:34
as though it was something that it wasn't. Am I right? >> Yes. >> And the reason you did that, sir was so
04:40:41
that you could say that this accident occurred while you were at the movies. Am I
04:40:48
right? >> Correct. >> Sir, you weren't at the movies when that accident occurred, were you?
04:40:54
>> No. The difference is that the first one is a car accident and the second one is a
04:40:59
homicide. >> That's correct, Mr. Burns. That is a difference. >> And the difference is also that in the
04:41:06
first case, I was responsible for the car accident. And in the second case, I had nothing to do with this homicide.
04:41:11
>> David Heiser wasn't about to let that statement go in front of the jury. He had more of that damning tape.
04:41:19
>> Can I tell you something? I I you know I felt like you know I was capable and
04:41:31
like you kill a person or something. >> And on July 18th of 1995 after you uh told him that you had in fact killed the
04:41:42
Rafé family, you told him that you did it because you felt capable of killing. Right.
04:41:49
>> Correct. Yes. >> Did you see it happen? >> Yeah. >> All three? >> No, only one. Which one? My mom.
04:41:59
>> The demeanor with which they deliver this this message of what they accomplished that that night in
04:42:06
Belleview is chilling. >> Didn't even fight. >> Um. Uh. Yeah. Well, that's a story that hasn't really
04:42:16
been told because I think I know that >> you can hear her teeth giggling in the background and and kind of going, "Oh
04:42:24
god, oh god." basically uh the father who was uh nothing and curious episode was um the
04:42:36
sister who basically um yeah I was standing up and walking around and whatever little uh network
04:42:47
>> your behavior on that tape when there's some laughing did you think that the murder of the Rafé family was some sort
04:42:52
of a comedy? >> No, absolutely not. But we were lying and I was not thinking about the murder of the Rafé family when
04:43:01
I was talking. >> To a certain extent, I had essentially put the real events out of my mind
04:43:10
entirely so that I was really only thinking of the story that I was selling to Mr. Hlett.
04:43:20
That's not part of a story that two scared individuals come up with because they think it's what two mafia
04:43:28
characters want to hear. That's the truth. That's the truth coming from the mind of
04:43:36
a Tifer Fay and Sebastian Burns. [Music] It's a challenge to sum it all up in a couple of hours. Six months of testimony
04:43:55
comes down to one final argument. >> There is no gray area. There is nothing in between. Either you must believe what
04:44:02
Sebastian Burn says and every single thing he says or you must convict him. >> James Conat will speak for the state.
04:44:10
>> You like your odds >> very much. Are you ready? Absolutely. >> Jeff Robinson knows this is his last
04:44:18
chance in front of the jury and he will have to counter with everything he has. >> How many times does the evidence have to
04:44:26
tell us it's not Sebastian and it's not a teeth before we listen? Please listen.
04:44:35
He points to the bloody scene in Tariq's bedroom and evidence of three killers. >> Three people went into Dr. Rafé's room
04:44:47
and there are three unknown DNA profiles. >> Robinson reminds them that there is no
04:44:53
forensic evidence linking the boys to the crime. And the question that you're required to ask yourselves is, what has
04:45:01
the state shown me to make me believe that he is guilty without having one reason to doubt it?
04:45:09
>> Mr. Konad, floor is yours, honor. Thank you. >> There can be no doubt in your mind that
04:45:15
these two are the killers. >> The prosecution insists it is Sebastian's own words that leave no room
04:45:24
for doubt. How did you three people at once? >> Uh, not at >> and ultimately the words that came out
04:45:34
of Sebastian Burns's mouth led to his demise. His hubris led to his demise. [Music]
04:45:42
What would be most compelling to the 12 jurors? Would it be the neighbors who thought they heard the murders that
04:45:49
night when the boys were spotted at the movie theater? Or would they be haunted by Jimmy
04:45:55
Moshi's words damning his two former best friends? Would the jury believe that Sebastian was scared of those
04:46:03
undercover operators? Or is this the picture of a young man who thinks he's about to get away with
04:46:10
murder? For the last time, the jury is asked to envision the last moments in the Rafé
04:46:18
family home. This is the horror that they left behind. Ladies and gentlemen, this is what we must not lose sight of.
04:46:30
Finally, it is up to the jury to make its decision. >> Okay, ladies and gentlemen, you're
04:46:35
retired to deliberate your verdict. >> In the script for The Great Despisers, two boys are wrongfully convicted and
04:46:43
executed. After 4 days of deliberations, 10 years after the murders, the final act in the
04:46:52
real life plotline. >> All rides for the jury. >> We the jury find the defendant Glenn
04:46:58
Sebastian Burns guilty of the crime of murder in the first degree as charged in count one. Verdict form 1 F. We the jury
04:47:06
find the defendant uh Tif Ahmed Rafé guilty of the crime of murder in the first degree as charged in count three.
04:47:15
I did not believe that they didn't have reasonable doubt. I just didn't believe it.
04:47:22
>> I'm afraid of him. I think he's very scary. I looked at him a few times and he was glaring at me personally and
04:47:28
anybody that committed a crime like that is a frightening person. >> I was looking at individual jurors just
04:47:34
to see if they I don't know. I guess I was looking for some kind of an answer. >> I wonder
04:47:41
how they sleep at night. I wonder how they came to that decision. >> One way the other
04:47:52
>> with the verdict that was given, can you sleep well at night now? >> Yes. >> Yes.
04:47:59
>> No second thoughts. >> No. >> No way. >> Not with anyone. >> Not a doubt. >> I personally myself to the very day of
04:48:07
the end of the trial wanted them to be innocent. And in the end, I was totally overcome by the evidence. obviously, but
04:48:13
I think all of us were wishing that some suspect would be guilty so that we could
04:48:18
not convict these two young men. [Music] >> On October 22nd, 2004, 5 months after
04:48:30
the verdict, >> good morning, Sebastian and Aif were back in court. >> Sebastian, anything to say before they
04:48:37
put you away? this time to hear their sentence from the judge. >> Send Mr. Burns a very clear message that
04:48:44
he has been found guilty. Send him to prison for the rest of his natural life times three. Three consecutive life
04:48:49
sentences. Mr. Burns. >> Thank you, your honor. >> Sebastian had his own message for the
04:48:58
court. >> With all due respect to the jurors, the verdict is wrong. In the audience
04:49:04
were jurors who had convicted him and the undercover operators who had sealed his fate.
04:49:12
>> I certainly feel sorry for the victims. I feel sorry for their surviving son.
04:49:16
>> This was his only expression of sympathy. >> Before I continue, I would just encourage you to consider
04:49:21
>> in a speech that went on >> and that's >> for almost two hours. our jury was made to have.
04:49:30
>> I want to insist today on the truth that we are innocent. >> Aif never took the stand during the
04:49:39
trial. >> And I loved my parents. I rever memory to this day. >> He used this moment to admit he was
04:49:49
ashamed. Your honor, the impersonation that I gave on those videootapes. >> Yes,
04:49:56
>> there's no relation is alien to everything that I've ever felt or thought. I truly admired my father.
04:50:05
I was probably closer to my mother than to any other person than I ever will be.
04:50:11
and the memory of her wit and her charm and her keen human sympathy. They're dear to me to this day.
04:50:21
>> Mr. Ruffet, thank you. Unlike your colleague, I find you genuinely remorseful, Mr. Rafé. I think the
04:50:29
tragedy for you and ultimately your family was a meeting, a fateful meeting at a
04:50:37
probably a school cafeteria or a school ground. I don't know where it occurred with Mr. Burns.
04:50:43
>> Judge Martell saved his harshest words for Sebastian Burns. >> Mr. Burns, you're not immoral. You're
04:50:50
amoral. You are an arrogant, convicted killer. You are not a kid, as you so often refer
04:50:58
to yourself. You're an adult and you will be held responsible as an adult for your premeditated, naked, vicious
04:51:08
massacre of this family. It is therefore the conclusion of this court that you should be sentenced on
04:51:16
count one to life without possibility of parole, count two to life without possibility of parole, and on count
04:51:25
three to life without possibility of parole. those three sentences to run consecutively.
04:51:33
>> Put it back up here. >> It's taken them a decade, but prosecutors will send the Rafé's only
04:51:39
son and his best friend to prison for life. >> We've been saying all along they thought
04:51:46
they planned the perfect murder. >> Justice has been done for the three victims and our community has held the
04:51:53
two individuals responsible for this accountable for their conduct. There is a great deal of satisfaction in being
04:52:00
part of that. A great deal of satisfaction. [Music] [Music] Before we begin, just a trigger warning.
04:52:55
The following episode contains references to graphic physical violence. Please listen with care.
04:53:05
Welcome to Killer Conversation, a podcast about the criminal mind. My name is Judy Ryback and I'm a longtime 48
04:53:13
hours producer. This is part two of my conversation with Peter Vans about his interviews with two
04:53:20
convicted killers, Sebastian Burns and Aif Rafé. Burns and Rafé were just teenagers when they murdered Rafé's
04:53:28
family, and they might never have been caught were it not for a Canadian sting known as the Mr. Big operation.
04:53:37
So, Peter, Mr. Big, what is that? So, this was a unit within the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, an undercover
04:53:44
unit that would pose as a organized crime family. And they had the ability when they had a target to get that
04:53:54
person entwined in their illegal business, what the what the target thought would be illegal. One of the
04:54:02
undercover officers told me, "Peter, we have never had a target who we did not successfully pull into our organized
04:54:11
crime family." And he said, "I'm talking doctors, lawyers, bankers, they were brilliant at this." And so the there was
04:54:20
the house was bugged and an undercover officer hears that Sebastian is going to get his haircut at a salon in downtown.
04:54:30
um Vancouver and they decide this is our moment to make an approach to him. They'd also learned that Sebastian and
04:54:40
Aif had been working on a screenplay called The Great Despisers. And it's a story about two young men wrongfully
04:54:48
accused of murdering a family. Wow. Where did they get that idea, Judy? Where do you where do you think they got
04:54:54
that? And so when Sebastian came out of the the barber shop, there was a member of the Mr. Big undercover team waiting
04:55:03
who approaches him and says, "Hey, how's it going? You know, I let I I left my keys in my car here. You know, can you
04:55:10
do me a favor? Drive me down to the local hotel. I got an extra set of keys down there." And um and so the adventure
04:55:17
with the Mr. Big Team began, >> right? They uh they went to a bar and they started talking and forming a
04:55:25
relationship and uh and they because they knew about the screenplay, they sort of used that to to reel him in,
04:55:33
right? Like at some point he said, "I know somebody who I think can fund your movie, who can give you money to make
04:55:39
your film. Let's go meet him." And that very same night they went to go meet with Mr. Big, who they called Al. Right.
04:55:48
>> Yes. I've met Al. I've uh interviewed Al in Shadow. Um the all the guys on this
04:55:55
undercover team were among the most talented I have ever seen. They looked like character actors out of a Hollywood
04:56:02
movie. And uh not long after they they meet this mobster Al, Mr. Big, he asked Sebastian to drive a very expensive
04:56:12
stolen car from Whistler Mountain outside of Vancouver back to the city. And Sebastian agreed. And after the
04:56:19
delivery, Sebastian was paid $200. That made him anger angry because he wanted a
04:56:23
lot more money than that. But instead of running away from what he thought was a
04:56:28
criminal enterprise, Sebastian told them he wanted more money. >> Right? >> This is what remember I told you these
04:56:36
guys said, "We always get somebody. They once they see our world, we were able to
04:56:41
hook somebody. >> They know their audience, right?" >> So he and Jimmy Moshi, we remember his
04:56:46
roommate. They agreed to start laundering money for this Mr. Big Enterprise and they were paid $2,000 for
04:56:54
that. Oh, these are guys that can't get jobs. They're suddenly raking in the dough. They're going, they're having
04:57:00
excitement. They're living on the edge, right? >> And Sebastian ends up working for this
04:57:04
criminal enterprise for nearly 4 months. >> I think we should just clarify that Jimmy Moshi was a high school friend who
04:57:11
they were living with at the time of the Sting operation. So eventually Sebastian
04:57:16
was asked if he was willing to ready for this commit murder. >> The only reason why I'm talking like
04:57:23
that, if you follow the whole conversation, you'll see he's asking me a lot of questions about how does my
04:57:28
conscience handle crime. And this is after he's already confessed to me that he's a murderer himself and after he's
04:57:33
also told me that he's worried that I'm a threat to his organization. He's worried that I'm reluctant to work for
04:57:38
them. And it was clear that he was worried that I was going to tell them to the police. and the only conceivable
04:57:44
purpose. I told him at this point that that wouldn't bother my conscience, but I wouldn't want to do it myself. And he
04:57:52
continued to ask me question. >> You're saying I'd do it, but I wouldn't do it. You're saying, "Yeah, I'd kill somebody,
04:57:58
but you know, I guess I wouldn't kill somebody." Is that what you're saying we should take from that exchange?
04:58:04
>> Well, what you should take from that exchange is that I was trying to satisfy
04:58:08
him that I wasn't going to tell the police what he just confessed to me. And I also told him, however, that I didn't
04:58:14
want to do it. I mean, the some >> Are we getting a glimpse here into the real Sebastian Burns, a man who had
04:58:20
murdered a family and is now telling one of these undercover guys, you're willing
04:58:24
to do it again? >> No, that's completely not true. And if you read the rest of that excerpt,
04:58:29
Peter, I think that it will be more clear that what I'm telling him there is that I do not want to do that.
04:58:35
>> So, is it true, did he try to walk away? Did he ever say no to anything? No, he
04:58:41
stays. Uh he says because he was afraid of what they would do to him if he didn't. But we already know that he is
04:58:50
delighted and they've heard on these u these bugging devices he's delighted by the money that's coming in.
04:58:58
>> So they they tell the boys that um that there's that they've heard that there's
04:59:02
evidence against them in the case in Washington, right? They have a memo that they show them that says that police
04:59:09
found hairs and DNA and blood evidence that's going to that's going to turn the whole case around. And they tell the
04:59:16
boys that um that they can help get rid of that evidence. >> Yeah, this is really convincing stuff.
04:59:24
Uh this is per very persuasive to him that oh my god, they've got this they've got this evidence and Mr. big with all
04:59:33
his connections can destroy that evidence. But there but Sebastian has to agree to do something. What is it, Judy?
04:59:41
>> He has to confess to the murders. >> That's right. And this is very clever. And this is where, you know, in the
04:59:49
United States at that time, if there was an undercover operation like this, you tell me, would this be admissible?
04:59:56
>> No, absolutely not. Yeah, >> you're absolutely right. It would not be admissible. And um and Sebastian is, you
05:00:04
know, he's heading down that drain. It's swirling and he's he's he's losing um control because now they're going to
05:00:13
have to tell Mr. Big exactly what happened to Mr. Big's satisfaction at Aif's family's home. And eventually
05:00:21
Sebastian and Aif are sitting in a room with Mr. Big. They're unaware that there's a hidden video camera and it's
05:00:28
recording every second of their conversation, picture and sound. [Music] So, this is a first meeting with Mr. Big
05:00:45
and and his people. Um, what did they say? What did they tell them about about the murders? There's no doubt about it.
05:00:54
Sebastian admits to doing the murders and he details how he did it. Beginning with the mother, then the father, then
05:01:01
the daughter, all beaten with the bat. >> Yeah. The way he confesses on that uh undercover tape is is so matterof fact
05:01:10
and and at times he even laughs about it. You you talk to him about that. >> Your behavior on that tape when there's
05:01:17
some laughing, did you think that the murder of the Rafé family was some sort of a comedy? No, absolutely not. But we
05:01:25
were lying and I was not thinking about the murder of the Rafé family when I was
05:01:30
talking. I was trying to pass off a story. And for whatever reason, I guess the way that the whole ordeal affected
05:01:37
me was to get nervous and to kind of giggle a bit. And I mean, in one sense, I was trying to act casual. And in
05:01:44
another way, I was, I guess, just genuinely giggling nervously. Uh, >> you laugh when you say Bosman needed a
05:01:52
little extra bat work. That's sick, isn't it? >> Well, yes. Uh, I don't want to split
05:01:58
hairs, but the quote is actually a little more effort. Uh, I mean, not that it's much better, and I guess that is
05:02:05
just splitting hairs, but at the same time, it's a little bit different. Uh, >> it's not that's not any better. Effort
05:02:10
is still outrageous. You laugh when you're talking about killing Bosma. >> Yeah. Well, we were lying. And at that
05:02:19
point, I felt very awkward because I didn't know what to say about it to Al because we didn't do it. And I was
05:02:27
making up a story and I was chuckling awkwardly because I didn't know what to say. And I was, we had already heard
05:02:36
some of the details in the newspaper about what supposedly happened there. And I was just in a really awkward
05:02:42
position. And I was just kind of chuckling nervously. Sebastian, aren't we looking
05:02:49
at you on this videotape? The real Sebastian Burns, the person who planned this murder, killed these people, and
05:02:57
has no conscience to the point where you can laugh about it. >> No, that's completely wrong. No, you are
05:03:02
never seeing the real me on any of these tapes, in my opinion. >> In my opinion, what an odd thing to say.
05:03:13
Sebastian claims he was forced to confess that he was afraid of what the mob boss might do to him if he didn't.
05:03:19
So Aif is there that day and he also confessed. Um they they needed both boys there, right?
05:03:28
>> Yeah. But Aif claims that he also felt trapped in that moment and had had no no
05:03:34
choice that you know if they confessed the mob boss was going to protect him, you know, and destroy that evidence down
05:03:40
in Belleview. Uh, and if they didn't, who knows what would have happened to them.
05:03:44
>> I certainly had no way of dealing with the situation other than the one that they that that was offered by the
05:03:50
undercover operatives where they whereby somehow they would essentially magically
05:03:53
take care of all our problems. And I certainly I I can say that I almost enjoyed the irony of making a false
05:04:02
confession in order to obtain a true exoneration. I thought that was kind of neat.
05:04:09
>> Neat. It was neat making up a story about his murdered family. >> What can I say? And uh like Sebastian,
05:04:17
he laughed when he talked about the murder of his sister Bosma. >> You have declined to discuss the details
05:04:24
of these murders during the course of this interview. What you saw inside your own house, right?
05:04:28
>> And yet in front of two mobsters, >> you laugh about it and you give complete
05:04:33
detail about what happened inside that house. I don't get it. It's easier to talk about a fiction than it is to about
05:04:39
the truth. I think in that way, um, I didn't have any emotional feelings about the a fake story that I was telling.
05:04:49
>> He doesn't ever have any emotional feelings. Uh, or it doesn't appear that he's emotional. Anyway, to a lot of
05:04:55
people, what the Canadian officers did feels like entrament and coerced confessions. In fact, Sebastian's sister
05:05:03
made a documentary about the Mr. a big operation that got Innocence International to take on Aif and
05:05:11
Sebastian's case. But all of the appeals were denied >> at the time when I was covering this and
05:05:18
the way it was explained in court is that this was an undercover operation that was completely legal in Canada at
05:05:27
that time. Eventually became illegal, but at that time it was legal. And here in the US, there was an exception called
05:05:34
the silver platter doctrine, which said that if an operation was legal in the country where it was conducted, it was
05:05:42
then admissible here in the United States. And defense attorneys tried to get the video thrown out, but the judge
05:05:49
in Sebastian's trial allowed jurors to watch it. And on it, the boys confess. >> Do you think they would have been
05:05:58
convicted without those tapes? I am not sure that they would have been convicted with what the neighbors had
05:06:05
heard >> of these killings going on at a time when the boys were seen in a movie
05:06:11
theater. Um I think there is hung jury was a real possibility or or an acquitt was a real
05:06:19
possibility. This this was this was the moment, >> right? Or there may never have been a
05:06:24
trial, right? >> Those of you who've been listening to all this, what do you think?
05:06:29
>> Right? >> If that tape had not been played, um would these boys have been convicted? I
05:06:35
think there's a excellent chance that they would not have been. So, a little over a year after the murders, they tell
05:06:44
these Canadian officers that they committed the murders, but it took nearly six years to extradite them. Why?
05:06:50
>> Well, at the heart of this was the death penalty. There is no death penalty for
05:06:54
murder in Canada. And the Canadian government said they're not going to extradite the boys until uh the judge in
05:07:00
this case agreed to take and prosecutors agreed to take the death penalty off the
05:07:06
table, which eventually happened. >> Right. Both boys were represented by public defenders and there's kind of a
05:07:13
crazy story about how they were pulled off the case. >> Is it true that Sebastian had sex with
05:07:20
one of his attorneys? >> Yeah. So, I'll I'll leave her name out of it. She's been through so much. But he had
05:07:29
this dynamic u woman attorney that um was considered one of the best in the public defender's
05:07:35
office. She had gone uh to Japan to see Jimmy Mioshi. Remember, he was Sebastian
05:07:42
and Natif's roommate in Vancouver, British Columbia. And uh Jimmy had been accused of conspiring in the murders.
05:07:48
And and he made a deal with the state to testify against his friends. And then he
05:07:53
moved to Japan. Well, Sebastian's lawyer flew to Japan to meet with him. And she
05:07:57
came back. She was incredibly excited because she claimed that Jimmy told her that he felt leaned on to make the deal.
05:08:05
and she was excited that that if she could present this in court, it would completely undermine him as a as a
05:08:11
witness. And I was told by the prosecutor in the case uh who talked to the guards who who watched some of this
05:08:18
unfold, she ran into his uh meeting into the meeting room. Um she gives him this
05:08:24
big hug. She tells him the news. They hug again. And then the hug immediately progressed into um removal of clothing.
05:08:34
um a guard who was watching all of this called two other guards over and because
05:08:40
they were on a slightly second floor that they could look down and see this window on the door, this small window
05:08:45
could see inside and they said, "Do you see what I see? Okay, do you see what I see?" Yeah, we all know what that is.
05:08:51
Okay, well then let's go break this up. And it's a felony to have sex with an inmate in in jail like that. and uh she
05:09:02
uh had her law license suspended. She was taken off the case and she had a partner who was who was uh incredibly
05:09:09
bright and talented and the two of them were were taken off cuz they were a team. So when these two defense
05:09:14
attorneys come instead of having years of research behind them, they had a few months to get prepared for this and uh
05:09:24
that was devastating to Sebastian and Aif's case. [Music] So, speaking of Jimmy Moshi, he had a
05:09:40
lot to say in his deposition. Um, he said that a told him that he had wanted to kill his family and that he was
05:09:49
present when Sebastian killed his mother. >> Yeah. He said he'd been present when
05:09:54
Sebastian had discussed their plans to murder the family. And he specifically said he recall them saying that they
05:10:00
plan to stay at the Rafé home for a few days before the murder so their DNA and hair would be explainable when it was
05:10:08
discovered uh during forensic examination. >> Part of the plan, part of the master
05:10:13
plan. So there was a bit of physical evidence that showed that there might have been someone else involved in the
05:10:21
murder, at least of Tariq. What was that? Well, there was a hair, just a single hair, found on the body of Tariq
05:10:28
Rafé that didn't belong to anyone in the family or Sebastian. Now, of course, Tariq worked in the outside world, and
05:10:36
being at work, if somebody had given him a hug or anything else, you could see transference there. Uh, but there was
05:10:42
also, and this was really strange, there was blood in the garage that was discovered that didn't belong to anyone
05:10:49
in the family or to Sebastian. M >> and also then don't forget the two neighbors who testified that they heard
05:10:56
a commotion at the house >> at a time when the boys were in that movie theater. >> Right. Right. So Sebastian took the
05:11:04
witness stand which doesn't surprise me at all. What about you? >> It doesn't surprise me. I'll use that
05:11:11
phrase brilliantly stupid. >> Uh his attorney said don't do this. We have a chance. there's um some
05:11:19
reasonable doubt in here and um do not do this. And Sebastian insisted >> if he was anything like he was in your
05:11:28
interview, I can only imagine that the jury just hated him. >> Yeah, it's it he had that same attitude,
05:11:37
right? >> He was very put out while answering questions. Um and uh that that attitude
05:11:43
is of I'm smarter than you uh and I'm the one you should believe. So, at at his sentencing, Sebastian
05:11:52
never showed any remorse, told the jurors they were wrong, and went on for nearly 2 hours. What did he say?
05:12:00
>> Yeah, I was there. Um, this was a theater in the round, uh, one man performance. He talked to the judge
05:12:08
directly, but also then turned back to talk to the people in the room, all of us that were there. Um, he insisted he
05:12:15
was innocent, repeated himself over and over about why the jury was wrong. He threw his defense team under the bus,
05:12:21
called them ineffective. >> He claimed he didn't know he would testify until the morning of and was
05:12:26
unprepared. That's not true. Defense attorney had had told me that they had urged him not to do this. He forced them
05:12:33
to put him on the stand. He insisted that he had not had his day in court and asked that if he could have a new trial
05:12:38
and represent himself. The judge told him to wrap it up many times. >> This is what the judge said when he
05:12:47
sentenced Sebastian to three consecutive life sentences. Mr. Burns, you are not immoral. You are amoral. You are an
05:12:56
arrogant convicted killer. You are not a kid as you so often refer to yourself. You're an adult and you will be held
05:13:04
responsible as an adult for your premeditated naked vicious massacre of this family. Of all the mic drops I've
05:13:13
ever heard delivered from the bench, that was epic. >> If I may say, a touch of genius from the
05:13:20
judge. Such as Aif might say, such irony for the two geniuses whose brilliance and arrogance had turned on them and led
05:13:30
to their demise. >> Yes. Yes. On the other hand, Aif seemed to get choked up at his sentencing. He
05:13:38
didn't admit to his crime, but he showed remorse for his behavior >> for the first time. And um I had
05:13:45
interviewed him and things. Uh I saw some humanity there. Um the big question always in a situation
05:13:53
like that is is he sad for what he did or is he sad that he got caught? >> Right. Exactly. And was it genuine or
05:14:01
was he just terrified? [Music] So they both got three consecutive life sentences without the possibility of
05:14:11
parole. And of course they vowed to fight their wrongful conviction, but they're never getting out. Right.
05:14:18
Well, it's doubtful now. Uh Sebastian has exhausted all of his appeals. Uh Te has one more to go, but I I think it is
05:14:30
very it is very doubtful that uh uh that they will ever see life outside of a prison cell. Here's an exchange I had
05:14:40
with Patif. >> How would you describe what has happened to you? Um, I don't know. I guess we'd have to use
05:14:50
words like disaster and calamity and other things. Um, it's very easy to fall into the rut of self-pity and so I try
05:14:59
not to think on it too much. Um, luckily uh it's very easy to uh I guess think of other things and fall
05:15:09
into a sort of uh unmindfulness of your present situation. And here is Sebastian.
05:15:18
Do >> you still see the images of of their bodies when you think about the Rafé house? When you think about that Nike,
05:15:25
you still see it in your mind's eye? Is it something you live with? That memory?
05:15:35
Truly, I don't know. It was something that was very much with me for I know the first year after it happened.
05:15:53
Um especially with the first few weeks. Um it's been 10 years now and so and a lot of ways I'm over it.
05:16:07
>> Why do you think they never turned on each other? I still believe that they believe and
05:16:14
this is what has sustained them all these years is that one day they will outsmart the system on appeal.
05:16:22
>> They're down to their last one for a could ever have turned on Sebastian his his idol and his mentor.
05:16:34
>> Right. So today they're both 49 years old. They're still in custody in the Monroe Correctional Complex. A Tif was
05:16:44
married in in 2017, but is now divorced. Not surprisingly, he seems to have been
05:16:52
or is a model prisoner, studying and teaching and writing papers and articles. Um, all we know about
05:17:00
Sebastian is that his parents visit him once a month, and according to them, he spent 10 years in solitary confinement.
05:17:10
Well, Peter, we could go on forever, but we won't. >> Yeah, somebody wrote a book about it.
05:17:16
>> Yes, you did. >> that my relatives bought. Perfectly executed is the book. I wrote it with
05:17:20
Janet Jackson, one of the producers. >> All right. Thank you again. >> Yeah. And thanks for reliving this with
05:17:26
me. It is It is one of the most extraordinary cases of my career and one I'll carry with me forever.
05:17:32
>> I can see why. 48 hours Killer Conversation is hosted and produced by me, Judy Ryback. Our
05:17:41
story editor is Mora Walls. Alan Pang oversees recording, mixing, and sound design, factchecking, and additional
05:17:49
production support from Rebecca Laflam. And special thanks to 48 hours executive
05:17:55
producer Judy Tyiggard and Paramount Podcast Vice President Megan Marcus.