00:00:01
48 hours continues. I think that everyone who knew Sebastian thought that he was going on to do
00:00:19
something interesting with his life. Yeah. People expected him to be a leader, to do something interesting. and
00:00:27
um I hope one day he will. [Music] Sebastian Burns and Aif Rafé should have been celebrating at the West Vancouver
00:00:38
High School 10-year reunion. Instead, they had become the class of 93's most infamous graduates.
00:00:51
Prosecutors say just one year out of high school, these brilliant best friends tried to commit the perfect
00:00:59
murder. It was a brutal crime. There's blood all over his face that shocked the upscale
00:01:06
suburb of Belleview, Washington. Af's mother, father, and sister bludgeoned to death.
00:01:16
The motive, insurance money. The boys got away and were living in Canada until undercover police officers
00:01:25
caught them on tape boasting about how they did it. Three people at once. Uh otherwise
00:01:36
now on the eve of their murder trial, a judge would decide if a jury would get to hear those chilling confessions.
00:01:44
[Music] I do not find the undercover officer's conduct in this case shocking or outrageous. Although they were
00:01:52
deceitful, persistent and aggressive. They engaged in tricks but not dirty tricks.
00:02:00
It was a controversial ruling allowing the boy's own words to be used against them. What should you do first? Um the
00:02:09
mother and would set the tone for the whole trial. Just how powerful is the impact of this video of these two
00:02:18
boys confessing to murders? It's incredibly powerful. When I first saw it, I was taken aback. I was shocked.
00:02:27
There are two young men seemingly laughing about slaughtering three people and saying, "I did it." And while the
00:02:35
confessions may be shocking, the defense says they're not true. This case is about what happens when a presumption of
00:02:44
guilt, when a gut feeling that you have the right suspects takes over from logical and objective evaluation of the
00:02:55
evidence. This case is about what happens when you pursue individuals as opposed to pursuing the truth. Finally,
00:03:03
in November 2003, more than 9 years after the Rafé family murders, Sebastian and Aif get their day in court. The jury
00:03:13
is going to finally hear the story of what really happened to the Rafé family, and they'll hear the story of
00:03:19
Sebastian's innocence. But prosecutors had a very different story to tell. Sebastian Burns is
00:03:27
young, thoughtful, charismatic, manipulative, and most importantly, a killer. A brutal killer. You've been portrayed
00:03:38
as a monster. Yeah. Yes. Maniacal, plotting, a murderer. Are you those things? No.
00:03:48
The state's theory is we want to make the jurors hate these two young men. Essentially, they make it a test of
00:03:56
character as opposed to a test of evidence. And character is at the heart of the prosecution's case. All rise.
00:04:04
Superior court is now in session. The defendants were two young men who believed they could commit the perfect
00:04:13
murder. Roger David Heiser opened for the state. Ladies and gentlemen, what you will hear in the end is that it was
00:04:20
this very hubris that sealed their fate and their arrogant and unrealistic belief that they were smart enough to
00:04:27
achieve mastery over the police and their investigation. He zeroed in on the piece of evidence that launched the case
00:04:35
and for the first time revealed a startling flaw in the boy's plan. There's uh I need uh an ambulance. They
00:04:45
made that 911 call too quickly. They're we think they're dead. My belief is that
00:04:52
they just walked straight into the house and made the 911 call. The timing was critical. So, we asked
00:04:59
Detective Thompson to retrace their drive home from downtown Seattle where they were last seen that night.
00:05:08
Uh 18 minutes. What does that tell you? And 18 minutes would give them three minutes in the house.
00:05:16
And three minutes, said the prosecutors, was not enough time in the house to find
00:05:22
the bodies and do all the things Sebastian and Aif told the police they did. And think about what they had to do
00:05:29
in that 3 minutes. Three minutes to arrive home, pull the family car into the garage, enter the
00:05:37
home through the garage, discover and comprehend that Sultana, Tariq, and Bosma have been brutally attacked and
00:05:46
laid dead in three different areas of that house. The revelation startled the defense, but
00:05:53
Song Richardson was thinking on her feet. asking you, how long does it take to walk into a house and see these two
00:06:01
brutally butchered bodies of a thief's family and then run downstairs and call 911 and turn the prosecution's argument
00:06:09
on its head? How long is 3 minutes? Well, let's see. That was about a minute and a half. But
00:06:31
remember, it wasn't just the murders. In that 3 minutes, the boys also had to figure out there had been a burglary and
00:06:38
that a VCR and Discman were missing. There's been some kind of breakin. I hear the voice of a person who has
00:06:47
contrived a story that can only be explained by somebody who knew very well what had
00:06:55
happened in the Rafé family home. I was out of my mind at the time. I was totally in shock, totally
00:07:05
staggered and and confounded and and was almost totally hysterical. In a case where every minute matters,
00:07:21
the defense bolsters their claim of the boy's innocence by playing up statements
00:07:26
the neighbors on both sides of the Rafé house gave to police in the days following the murders. The neighbors
00:07:32
initially said that they heard pounding coming from inside the Rafé house at a time when the boys have an airtight
00:07:40
alibi. You were standing in this driveway and that's Mark Sidell lived right next door to the Rafes. How loud
00:07:46
were the bangs you were hearing? Um, they're pretty hard hit. A little bit harder to need hang a a
00:07:55
picture. Sidel says back then he didn't think a murder was taking place next door and figured the Rafes who had just
00:08:04
moved in were probably unpacking. I sort of thought about going over and helping
00:08:08
him so they could go to sleep, but luckily that night I didn't. The Rafa's other nextoor neighbor, Julie Rackley,
00:08:15
testified that she also heard sounds. Initially, I thought it just sounded like hammering. It had sort of an odd
00:08:23
resonance to it. The neighbors who heard these sounds, described them in great detail, and verified what they were for
00:08:31
the police all heard them well before 10:00 at night. And at 10:00, Sebastian and Aif were still seen at the movie
00:08:41
theater. If the jury believes these initial reports that Mark Sidell and Judy Rackley gave to police, your case
00:08:48
could be in trouble. Absolutely. You can't be in two places at one time. There's no debating that point. There
00:08:56
are two independent neighbors who separately heard the murder happen at the end of twilight before 10:00
00:09:06
and we were known to be on the other side of town when that happened. It was impossible for us to have committed this
00:09:12
crime. Prosecutors contend it is possible. Even though the boys were seen going to the 950 movie, there's no proof
00:09:22
that they stayed. Is there a way for these two boys to exit the theater without drawing attention to themselves?
00:09:27
Say during the movie. Jose Martinez sold the boys movie tickets that night and he
00:09:33
showed us how they could sneak out from this theater. Go out this exit behind the curtain or the other one over there.
00:09:40
So if they slip through this curtain, you're not letting any light into the theater. Correct. Then up these stairs
00:09:46
and out this exit door. Doors outside. The defense protested that even though it could have happened
00:09:54
that way, there was no proof that it did and that prosecutors were grasping at straws to get a conviction. They sifted
00:10:02
through Sebastian's history and his life and a Tif's history and his life and tried to find anything that would make
00:10:11
them look like bad people. In fact, months into the trial, prosecutors brought this intriguing surprise witness
00:10:19
from the boy's past who said she had evidence that could turn the case. But first, they would have to convince the
00:10:27
judge to let the jury hear what she had to say. Swear or affirm. Nazcol shift was a friend from the boy's high school
00:10:36
days who had dated Sebastian. What was this comment that Sebastian Burns made that that stood out at you? He said, "I
00:10:47
want to try to kill someone one day to see how how it would feel because I think I would find it enjoyable." She
00:10:55
claimed a late night conversation she'd had years ago with the boys in her bedroom had planted the seeds for
00:11:02
murder. Did you think he was serious? He wasn't laughing and he said it in a serious tone. Sebastian doesn't deny
00:11:10
having the conversation, but emphatically says he wasn't serious. It's uh a oneline paraphrase of a
00:11:20
sarcasm from a hippie-dippy 3:00 a.m. conversation 10 years ago, and I can't remember enough about it to defend
00:11:28
myself against it. If anyone would reflect on that and think, imagine if the worst parts of my personality, maybe
00:11:36
the worst moments when I was 18 years old that I would be reminded of them for the next nine years of my life and
00:11:46
that's that in the public's eye would be the person that I'd become. I think people would really shudder. It's a
00:11:53
nightmare. Thank you for your time and your testimony. It was certainly damning testimony, but the jury would never hear
00:12:00
it. There is no question. Had I known about this last spring, I would have admitted this.
00:12:07
4 months into this thing, I can't stop this process and let everyone dash to the four winds to try and research this.
00:12:16
The judge's decision flustered prosecutors. But there's another witness more powerful and much more damning. You
00:12:26
swear or affirm that the testimony of the friend the boys swore would never betray them.
00:12:39
[Music] Do you recognize Mr. Burns and Mr. Raf in the courtroom here today? Yes, I do.
00:12:50
It had been years since Jimmy Moshi had seen his high school buddies Sebastian and Aif.
00:13:00
Jimmy had moved to Japan and was living under another name when prosecutors forced him to return to Seattle and face
00:13:08
his friends at their murder trial. He was in no uncertain terms conflicted. In fact, he spent the last two or three
00:13:15
years of his life trying to avoid the eventuality of being compelled to come to court and testify about his against
00:13:22
his two best friends. Jimmy could have easily been sitting next to his best friends charged with a crime. Back in
00:13:29
1995 during the undercover operation, Jimmy was also a target of the RCMP. The RCMP believed Moshi helped the boys
00:13:40
plan the murder of the Rafé family and they wanted him to give a full confession on tape just like his friends
00:13:48
had done. You know what went on down there in that house? What went on? Yeah. But no matter how much he was pressed
00:13:54
for details, Moshi refused to implicate his friends in the murder. Okay. Do you know who killed the parents? Yeah. Who?
00:14:02
Is that what you want? Yeah. And um I just want I just wanted you to explain to me exactly the purposes of you want
00:14:10
to know is that so we can establish this kind of totally for trust totally for trust. Totally. In some ways was Jimmy
00:14:16
Moshi the smartest of them all. He's not in jail. [Music] In fact Jimmy was arrested with
00:14:27
Sebastian and a interrogated by authorities in Canada. He was told that he might face the death penalty himself.
00:14:36
He was told that his family, his job, his future would be ruined unless he said that Sebastian and Nativ confessed
00:14:44
to him. Back then, Jimmy told the police that his friends were innocent. At the time of your arrest on July 31, 1995,
00:14:54
were they honest answers? They were answers that I guess the intention of a lot of those answers was to to
00:15:05
protect Sebastian and Aif at that point on July 31, 1995. Why is it that you gave answers that were to designed to
00:15:15
protect Sebastian and Aif? I guess it was also in a way to protect myself. Um, but in general because I
00:15:26
didn't want Sebastian and Antif to get whatever arrested and potentially convicted. But under increasing
00:15:35
pressure, Moshi eventually agreed to cooperate. And in exchange, he was granted immunity from charges of
00:15:43
conspiracy to commit murder. Suddenly, he began to reveal more to the police about what he knew. But now the
00:15:54
question loomed. Would Moshi betray his best friends? Had this subject ever come up before,
00:16:06
the notion of of Aif Rafé killing his family? No, this was this was the first time.
00:16:14
In a halting voice that often dropped to a whisper, Jimmy told the court that it
00:16:19
was during a drive from Seattle to Vancouver when Aif first brought up the idea of killing his family. What was
00:16:28
your response to the notion of Hatif's notion of killing his family? I guess I was listening and um
00:16:39
I I mean he was my friend at the time and I guess in a way I was neutral on that notion. On the stand, Jimmy
00:16:48
recounted a discussion about how the boys would commit the crime. You remember which methods were discussed? I
00:16:56
remember something about um gassing the house and I remember discussion about um I guess using a
00:17:07
baseball bat. What do you remember about why uh why a baseball bat could or should be used? He has a quick and
00:17:19
painless way of killing someone. I don't think there's any question that he was a
00:17:24
sounding board for them. The prosecution says Jimmy consulted on an especially chilling part of the plan. Sebastian and
00:17:33
Natif stayed here at the Rafé family home during the 5 days before the murders. And it was no coincidence. It
00:17:41
was part of the plan, prosecutors say, to commit the perfect crime. if they had been living in the house previously that
00:17:50
any kind of hair or whatever samples um that were collected after um wouldn't um necessarily mean
00:18:01
that they had done it by virtue of their being in the house for several days. Any
00:18:07
fingerprint that would be found or could be found could be explained as a result
00:18:12
of there being there having been there for several days. Any hair evidence that might be found could be explained for
00:18:19
them having been in the house for several days prior to the murders. It's diabolical, but it's pretty clever.
00:18:25
Damn clever. Finally, Jimmy gave the prosecution what they needed. He said that a watched while Sebastian
00:18:34
bludgeoned the family. And I remember hearing about how um I guess a Tif was pretty distraught and that
00:18:49
um from the moment that Sebastian had struck his mother that it was kind of a there's no going back. And how hard was
00:18:58
it to sit and listen to Jimmy Mioshi's testimony? It was enormously difficult. I think it was difficult for him as
00:19:05
well. Um, as I say, I I am outraged that he did it. Um, but at the same time, I I think I I reserve my
00:19:20
real outrage for the people who forced him to do it. Did you discuss a plan to murder the Rafé family with Jimmy Moshi?
00:19:29
No, we didn't. Never. Why did Jimmy Moshi testify that you did? because he had a life sentence held to his head.
00:19:39
And if he didn't say what the police and the prosecution wanted him to say, that
00:19:43
life sentence was going to go off. It's the first time in 8 years that you have ever said anything like that, isn't it,
00:19:51
sir? Um, I'm not sure. And isn't what happened? The defense tried to hammer back. Jimmy once lied to save his
00:20:00
friends, so he could be easily lying now to save himself. You're making it up as
00:20:06
you go along, sir. That's why you're saying things for the first time. No, I don't believe I am. Do you believe that
00:20:12
Jimmy Moshi is a liar? Jimmy Moshi is a self-admitted liar. Jimmy Moshi acknowledges that he has lied. The
00:20:23
question will be how many lies does Jimmy Moshi get to tell? Mr. Moshi, this conversation was on. The defense needed
00:20:30
to come back with something strong and they had an arsenal of forensic evidence that flew in the face of Moshi's
00:20:38
testimony. They told the jury that there were three killers in the house that night.
00:20:45
Experts analyzed the patterns of blood on the wall and found drops everywhere except this area where there was no
00:20:53
blood, indicating another killer may have stood there during the attack. They also said a pillow was moved during the
00:21:02
bludgeoning. So we have killer number one moving the pillow. We have killer number two bludgeoning Dr. Rafé with the
00:21:09
bat. And then we have killer number three who has to remain in the exact same place throughout the entire
00:21:18
duration of the attack on Dr. Rafé. And there was even more tangible evidence, a single hair on Tariq Rafé's
00:21:28
bed. According to the police officers there, this was an important hair because this hair, according to the
00:21:35
Belleview Police Department, would tell them who committed this crime. Did it match Aif? No. Sebastian? No. Sultana?
00:21:44
No. Bosma? No. Tariq? No. We don't know whether that hair originated from someone who sat in the same seat uh that
00:21:51
Sebastian Burns sat in at the movie theater or whether it was picked up by Dr. Rafé at his workplace or how it got
00:21:57
on that bed or if it was a hair from the killer or if it was a hair from the killer.
00:22:03
Prosecutors also added DNA evidence needs to fit a pattern and appear in more than one place at a crime scene.
00:22:12
That DNA profile appeared nowhere else in that house. There was absolutely no other pattern of trace evidence that
00:22:18
could even re be remotely suggested to be related to that hair. That was an isolated hair.
00:22:27
So, with the forensic evidence inconclusive, the case comes down to whom the jury
00:22:33
would believe. You're saying a testimony of one of my best friends. Don't listen to that. My
00:22:42
own words on the video tape. Don't listen to that. Just take my word for it. We didn't do it.
00:22:51
Defense call Sebastian Burns. All right for the jury. More than 100 witnesses would take the stand in the
00:23:10
state versus Burns and Rafé. Could you kill again? Circumstances are right. Finally, Canada's most secret undercover
00:23:18
operation would be exposed before the jury. And so would the question that had lingered for so many years.
00:23:27
Why would you confess to a murder you didn't do? [Music] At that point, it seemed like the only
00:23:35
safe choice. It seemed like the best choice. Why on earth would anyone confess to a
00:23:40
murder they didn't do unless they were petrified? [Music] That they were actually going to be
00:23:47
killed themselves or people they loved were going to come to some type of harm. The defense set out to prove that the
00:23:56
scales were tipped from the beginning. Professional liars. 1975 I was uh first trained in undercover
00:24:05
work against teenage boys. Have you worked as the primary undercover operator before? Yes. I am frightened by
00:24:13
the fact that this kind of undercover operation can be used ostensively to search for the truth when it is built in
00:24:22
whole on lies and manipulation and threats. Mr. Burns, come on forward. Sebastian would have to convince the
00:24:30
jury to believe him now and not to believe what he said on those tapes. that I was in way over my head and I did
00:24:40
not want to be involved with these guys. I was upset with myself for having agreed to drive the car. Sebastian began
00:24:48
his side of the story with the first assignment from the crime box, transporting that stolen car. What was
00:24:56
your reaction when you heard that they wanted you to drive the stolen car? Well, pretty quickly I felt that I'd
00:25:02
been tricked. Sebastian, why didn't you just look at him and say, "I am out of here. Walk away." No, but there is no
00:25:09
walking away. You want to know what I [ __ ] uh did my time for? I told the guy when it came time for court. The
00:25:17
person that could finger me, they're not around anymore. Sebastian says he couldn't walk away from criminals whose
00:25:24
power seemed to be so farreaching. I believe that if I'd cross them or if they weren't happy with me or if they
00:25:31
thought I was going to betray them that they would have me killed. I just assume
00:25:35
that you know you with your connections that if I were to you around, okay, I would just assume that I would wake up
00:25:43
one day with a bullet in my head. On the stand, Song Richardson pressed Sergeant
00:25:47
Hlett about his scare tactics. Sebastian could easily, very easily have believed
00:25:54
that you and your organization would hurt people if they crossed you, right? Uh, he he could have believed it. Yes.
00:26:02
And that you would kill people if they ever crossed you, right? Well, I've never said that.
00:26:10
It goes to Sebastian Burn's imagination. Let him sit back when he goes home at night and imagine whatever he chooses
00:26:16
to. Is there any time in which your character directly threatens Sebastian Burns? No, never. The idea was not to
00:26:28
frighten Sebastian, but to make him comfortable talking about murder to other murderers.
00:26:34
I know you did that. That's why you're here. Could Sebastian Burns have walked away from his relationship with you at
00:26:42
any time he chose to do so? Without a doubt, he didn't have to return our calls. Hey, it's Sebastian leaving.
00:26:48
Message number three. Sebastian stayed, the defense argued, because he believed the Belleview police were fabricating
00:26:57
evidence against him. I'm going to show you something. You never saw this from me. That phony memo detailing the
00:27:04
evidence that the cops had against the boys. Here, just read this piece of The undercover operators only offered to
00:27:12
destroy the evidence if Sebastian confessed. You don't say to Sebastian, "Look, Sebastian, if you didn't do it,
00:27:21
just say so. We'll still deal with that evidence for you. We'll deal with it so you won't get convicted, but if you
00:27:29
didn't do it, just just say so. We'll still help." You never said that, right? No, I didn't say that because up until
00:27:35
this time, Sebastian Burns had never denied the involvement in the murders to me.
00:27:43
[Music] Going into the meeting on July 18th, what was your plan? My plan was to claim
00:27:54
to be the murderer that they insisted that they believe that I was. And to be convincing, Sebastian says he studied
00:28:03
newspaper accounts, so he'd know details of the murders. Which go first? Um, the mother
00:28:16
and dad and sister. As the cameras rolled, Sebastian confirmed the police theory that the
00:28:24
weapon was a baseball bat. could use a metal or wouldn't that um metal and the eerie notion that the killer had
00:28:37
showered before leaving clean up blood and that kind of stuff and that wasn't the only reason why
00:28:45
detectives found no blood on the boys you uh it's on Facebook have to shower no blood on you do it naked
00:28:56
[Music] Sebastian pointed out how he and a Tif would profit from the crime. Whatever
00:29:04
money we get, it's like we would invest it in our film. I guess he gave up the most soughtafter clue,
00:29:15
the loophole in the alibi. You uh do the dirty deed. Uh, during the movie and I'm going to get you out of
00:29:27
the trouble you're in. [Music] Huh? I'm flattered by your attention. Aif explained that while Sebastian
00:29:38
killed his family, he staged a breakin. Breaned out of DPR. You told Hlet, am I correct, that you committed these
00:29:52
murders of the Rafé, the Rafé family during the movie? Am I right? Correct. That the VCR was taken to also uh
00:30:00
contribute to the simulation of a breaking and entering. That's right. You had the alibi of the movie. The
00:30:06
prosecution had another bombshell ready to drop on the defense. It wasn't the first time Sebastian used
00:30:14
a movie as an alibi. You got into a a a a car collision, didn't you? Yes. Uh you
00:30:21
were driving your family car at the time. That's correct. Yes. I mean, you hit a pole in a parking lot. Did you own
00:30:27
up to it at the time? No, I did not. When he was 16, Sebastian staged an elaborate cover up to conceal the fact
00:30:35
that he had wrecked the family car. Mr. Burns, the reality is uh what you said about doing was very similar to what you
00:30:43
told Hlett you did in this case. Isn't that correct? I told Hlett that we committed a murder, which we didn't do.
00:30:50
Well, Mr. Burns, let me stop you there for a moment. Roger David Heheiser drew a haunting parallel
00:30:56
between the accident scene and the murder scene. Back in high school, Sebastian went to great lengths to make
00:31:04
it seem like someone else did the damage while he was at the movies. But the insurance company caught him in
00:31:14
the cover up. And in March of 1992, albeit with this stupid little car crash, what you decided to do was to
00:31:23
pick up the pieces of evidence that were at the scene of this collision. Am I right? Correct. You put those back in
00:31:29
your car. Am I correct? Correct. You took them to an entirely different location in North Vancouver. Am I right?
00:31:36
Correct. And uh you staged a scene in a parking lot. Am I right? Basically, you manipulated the evidence to appear as
00:31:46
though it was something that it wasn't. Am I right? Yes. And the reason you did that, sir, was so that you could say,
00:31:55
that this accident occurred while you were at the movies. Am I right? Correct. Sir, you weren't at the
00:32:03
movies when that accident occurred, were you? No. The difference is that the first one is a car accident and the
00:32:10
second one is a homicide. That's correct, Mr. Burns. That is a difference. And the difference is also
00:32:17
that in the first case, I was responsible for the car accident. And in the second case, I had nothing to do
00:32:22
with this homicide. David Heiser wasn't about to let that statement go in front of the jury. He had more of that damning
00:32:30
tape. Can I tell you something? I I you know I felt like you know I was capable and
00:32:43
like you killed a person and on July 18th of 1995 after you uh told him that you had in fact killed the Rafé family
00:32:55
you told him that you did it because you felt capable of killing. Right. Correct. Yes. Did you see it happen?
00:33:03
Yeah. All three? No, only one. Which one? My mom. The demeanor with which they deliver this this message of what they
00:33:15
accomplished that that night in Belleview is chilling. Didn't even fight. Um. Uh. Yeah.
00:33:25
Well, that's a story that hasn't really been told because I think I know that you can hear a teeth giggling in the
00:33:34
background and and kind of going, "Oh god, oh god." That basically the father who was
00:33:41
nothing and curious episode was um the sister who basically um yeah was standing up and walking around
00:33:53
or whatever. [Music] network. Your behavior on that tape when there's some laughing, did you think that the
00:34:02
murder of the Rafé family was some sort of a comedy? No, absolutely not. But we were lying and I was not thinking about
00:34:11
the murder of the Rafé family when I was talking. To a certain extent, I had essentially
00:34:18
put the real events out of my mind entirely so that I was really only thinking of the story that I was selling
00:34:27
to Mr. Hlett. That's not part of a story that two scared individuals come up with because
00:34:38
they think it's what two mafia characters want to hear. That's the truth. That's the truth coming from the mind of
00:34:48
a Tif for Fay and Sebastian Burns. [Music] It's a challenge to sum it all up in a
00:35:04
couple of hours. 6 months of testimony comes down to one final argument. There is no gray area. There is nothing in
00:35:12
between. Either you must believe what Sebastian Burn says and every single thing he says or you must convict him.
00:35:19
James Conat will speak for the state. You like your odds very much. Are you ready? Absolutely. Jeff Robinson knows
00:35:28
this is his last chance in front of the jury and he will have to counter with everything he has. How many times does
00:35:37
the evidence have to tell us it's not Sebastian and it's not a teeth before we listen?
00:35:44
Please listen. He points to the bloody scene in Tariq's bedroom and evidence of three killers.
00:35:55
Three people went into Dr. Rafé's room and there are three unknown DNA profiles. Robinson reminds them that
00:36:04
there is no forensic evidence linking the boys to the crime. And the question that you're required to ask yourselves
00:36:11
is what has the state shown me to make me believe that he is guilty without having one reason to doubt it? Mr.
00:36:21
Conad, the floor is yours. Your honor, thank you. There can be no doubt in your mind that these two are the killers. The
00:36:30
prosecution insists it is Sebastian's own words that leave no room for doubt. How did you three people at once?
00:36:41
Uh and ultimately the words that came out of Sebastian Burns's mouth led to his demise. His hubris led to his demise.
00:36:53
[Music] What would be most compelling to the 12 jurors? Would it be the neighbors who
00:36:59
thought they heard the murders that night when the boys were spotted at the movie theater?
00:37:05
Or would they be haunted by Jimmy Moshi's words damning his two former best friends? Would the jury believe
00:37:13
that Sebastian was scared of those undercover operators? Or is this the picture of a young man who thinks he's
00:37:21
about to get away with murder? For the last time, the jury is asked to envision the last moments in the Rafé
00:37:30
family home. This is the horror that they left behind, ladies and gentlemen. This is what we must not lose sight of.
00:37:41
Finally, it is up to the jury to make its decision. Okay, ladies and gentlemen, you're retired to deliberate
00:37:47
your verdict. In the script for The Great Despisers, two boys are wrongfully convicted and executed.
00:37:57
After 4 days of deliberations, 10 years after the murders, the final act in the real life plotline. All rides for the
00:38:06
jury. We the jury find the defendant Glenn Sebastian Burns guilty of the crime of murder in the first degree as
00:38:13
charged in count one. Verdict form 1 F. We the jury find the defendant uh Tif Ahmed Rafé guilty of the crime of murder
00:38:22
in the first degree as charged in count three. I did not believe that they didn't have
00:38:30
reasonable doubt. I just didn't believe it. I'm afraid of him. I think he's very
00:38:35
scary. And I looked at him a few times and he was glaring at me personally. And anybody that commit a crime like that is
00:38:41
a frightening person. I was looking at individual jurors just to see if they I don't know. I guess I was looking for
00:38:48
some kind of an answer. I wonder how they sleep at night. I wonder how they came to that decision.
00:39:01
One way the other with the verdict that was given, can you sleep well at night now? Yes.
00:39:10
Yes. No second thoughts? No, no way. Not with anyone. Not a doubt. I personally myself to the very day of the end of the
00:39:19
trial wanted them to be innocent. And in the end, I was totally overcome by the evidence obviously, but I think all of
00:39:25
us were wishing that some suspect would be guilty so that we could not convict these two young men.
00:39:33
[Music] On October 22nd, 2004, 5 months after the verdict, good morning, Sebastian and Aif were back in court.
00:39:48
Sebastian, anything to say before they push you away? This time to hear their sentence from the judge. Send Mr. Burns
00:39:54
a very clear message that he has been found guilty. Send him to prison for the rest of his natural life times three.
00:40:00
Three consecutive life sentences. Mr. Burns. Thank you, your honor. Sebastian had his
00:40:08
own message for the court. With all your due respect to the jurors, the verdict is wrong. In the audience
00:40:16
were jurors who had convicted him and the undercover operators who had sealed his fate. I certainly feel sorry for the
00:40:24
victims. I feel sorry for their surviving son. This was his only expression of sympathy. And before I
00:40:30
continue, I just encourage you to consider in a speech that went on and that's what for almost 2 hours, our jury
00:40:37
was made to have I want to insist today on the truth that we are innocent. Aif never took the
00:40:50
stand during the trial. And I loved my parents. I rever memory to this day. He used this moment to admit he was
00:41:01
ashamed. Your honor, the impersonation that I gave on those videotapes. Yes, there's no relation is alien to
00:41:10
everything that I've ever felt or thought. I truly admired my father. I was probably closer to my mother than
00:41:19
to any other person that I ever will be. in the memory of her wit and her charm and her keen human sympathy.
00:41:29
[Music] They're dear to me to this day. Mr. Ruffet, thank you. Unlike your colleague, I find you genuinely
00:41:38
remorseful, Mr. Ruff. I think the tragedy for you and ultimately your family was a meeting, a fateful meeting at a
00:41:49
probably a school cafeteria or a school ground. I don't know where it occurred with Mr. Burns. Judge Martell saved his
00:41:57
harshest words for Sebastian Burns. Mr. Burns, you're not immoral. You're amoral. You are an arrogant, convicted
00:42:05
killer. You are not a kid, as you so often refer to yourself. You're an adult and you
00:42:12
will be held responsible as an adult for your premeditated, naked, vicious massacre of this family.
00:42:24
It is therefore the conclusion of this court that you should be sentenced on count one to life without possibility of
00:42:31
parole, count two to life without possibility of parole, and on count three to life without possibility of
00:42:39
parole. those three sentences to run consecutively. Back up here. It's taken them a decade,
00:42:47
but prosecutors will send the Rafa's only son and his best friend to prison for life.
00:42:56
We've been saying all along they thought they planned the perfect murder. Justice
00:43:00
has been done for the three victims and our community has held the two individuals responsible for this
00:43:07
accountable for their conduct. There is a great deal of satisfaction in being part of that. A great deal of
00:43:13
satisfaction. [Music] [Music] Before we begin, just a trigger warning. The following episode contains
00:44:08
references to graphic physical violence. Please listen with care. Welcome to Killer Conversation, a
00:44:19
podcast about the criminal mind. My name is Judy Ryback and I'm a longtime 48 hours producer.
00:44:27
This is part two of my conversation with Peter Vans about his interviews with two
00:44:32
convicted killers, Sebastian Burns and Aif Rafé. Burns and Rafé were just teenagers when they murdered Rafé's
00:44:40
family. And they might never have been caught were it not for a Canadian sting known as the Mr. Big operation.
00:44:49
So Peter, Mr. Big, what is that? So, this was a unit within the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, an undercover
00:44:55
unit that would pose as a organized crime family. And they had the ability when they had a target to get that
00:45:06
person entwined in their illegal business, what the what the target thought would be illegal. One of the
00:45:13
undercover officers told me, "Peter, we have never had a target who we did not successfully pull into our organized
00:45:23
crime family." And he said, "I'm talking doctors, lawyers, bankers, they were brilliant at this." And so the there was
00:45:32
the house was bugged and an undercover officer hears that Sebastian is going to get his haircut at a salon in downtown.
00:45:42
um Vancouver and they decide this is our moment to make an approach to him. They'd also learned that Sebastian and
00:45:52
Aif had been working on a screenplay called The Great Despisers. And it's a story about two young men wrongfully
00:46:00
accused of murdering a family. Wow. Where did they get that idea, Judy? Where do you where do you think they got
00:46:05
that? And so when Sebastian came out of the the barber shop, there was a member of the Mr. Big undercover team waiting
00:46:14
who approaches him and says, "Hey, how's it going? You know, I let I I left my keys in my car here. You know, can you
00:46:21
do me a favor? Drive me down to the local hotel. I got an extra set of keys down there." And um and so the adventure
00:46:29
with the Mr. Big Team began, right? They uh they went to a bar and they started talking and forming a relationship and
00:46:38
uh and they because they knew about the screenplay, they sort of used that to to
00:46:44
reel him in, right? Like at some point he said, "I know somebody who I think can fund your movie, who can give you
00:46:50
money to make your film. Let's go meet him." And that very same night they went to go meet with Mr. Big, who they called
00:46:58
Al. Right. Yes. I've met Al. I've uh interviewed Al in Shadow. Um the all the guys on this undercover team were among
00:47:08
the most talented I have ever seen. They looked like character actors out of a Hollywood movie. And uh not long after
00:47:17
they they meet this mobster Al, Mr. Big, he asked Sebastian to drive a very expensive stolen car from Whistler
00:47:25
Mountain outside of Vancouver back to the city. And Sebastian agreed. And after the delivery, Sebastian was paid
00:47:32
$200. That made him anger angry because he wanted a lot more money than that. But instead of running away from what he
00:47:39
thought was a criminal enterprise, Sebastian told them he wanted more money, right? This is what remember I
00:47:47
told you these guys said, "We always get somebody. They once they see our world,
00:47:51
we were we're able to hook somebody. They know their audience, right?" So he and Jimmy Moshi, we remember his
00:47:58
roommate. They agreed to start laundering money for this Mr. Big enterprise and they were paid $2,000 for
00:48:06
that. Oh, these are guys that can't get jobs. They're suddenly raking in the dough. They're going, they're having
00:48:12
excitement. They're living on the edge, right? And Sebastian ends up working for
00:48:16
this criminal enterprise for nearly 4 months. I think we should just clarify that Jimmy Moshi was a high school
00:48:22
friend who they were living with at the time of the sting operation. So eventually Sebastian was asked if he was
00:48:29
willing to ready for this commit murder. The only reason why I'm talking like that, if you follow the whole
00:48:36
conversation, you'll see he's asking me a lot of questions about how does my conscience handle crime. And this is
00:48:41
after he's already confessed to me that he's a murderer himself and after he's also told me that he's worried that I'm
00:48:46
a threat to his organization. He's worried that I'm reluctant to work for them. And it was clear that he was
00:48:52
worried that I was going to tell them to the police. and the only conceivable purpose. I told him at this point that
00:48:59
that wouldn't bother my conscience, but I wouldn't want to do it myself. And he continued to ask me questions. You're
00:49:05
saying I'd do it, but I wouldn't do it. You're saying, "Yeah, I'd kill somebody,
00:49:10
but you know, I guess I wouldn't kill somebody." Is that what you're saying we should take from that exchange?
00:49:16
Well, what you should take from that exchange is that I was trying to satisfy him that I wasn't going to tell the
00:49:21
police what he just confessed to me. And I also told him, however, that I didn't
00:49:25
want to do it. I mean, the sum. Are we getting a glimpse here into the real Sebastian Burns? A man who had murdered
00:49:31
a family and is now telling one of these undercover guys, you're willing to do it
00:49:36
again. No, that's completely not true. And if you read the rest of that excerpt, Peter, I think that it will be
00:49:42
more clear that what I'm telling him there is that I do not want to do that. So, is it true? Did he try to walk away?
00:49:50
Did he ever say no to anything? No, he stays. Uh he says because he was afraid of what they would do to him if he
00:49:58
didn't. But we already know that he is delighted. They've heard on these u these bugging devices he's delighted by
00:50:07
the money that's coming in. So they they tell the boys that um that there's that
00:50:13
they've heard that there's evidence against them in the case in Washington, right? They have a memo that they show
00:50:19
them that says that police found hairs and DNA and blood evidence that's going to that's going to turn the whole case
00:50:26
around. And they tell the boys that um that they can help get rid of that evidence.
00:50:33
Yeah, this is really convincing stuff. Uh this is per very persuasive to him that oh my god, they've got this they've
00:50:42
got this evidence and Mr. big with all his connections can destroy that evidence. But there but Sebastian has to
00:50:50
agree to do something. What is it, Judy? He has to confess to the murders. That's
00:50:56
right. And this is very clever. And this is where, you know, in the United States
00:51:02
at that time, if there was an undercover operation like this, you tell me, would
00:51:06
this be admissible? No, absolutely not. Yeah, you're absolutely right. It would not be admissible. And um and Sebastian
00:51:15
is, you know, he's heading down that drain. It's swirling and he's he's he's losing um control because now they're
00:51:24
going to have to tell Mr. Big exactly what happened to Mr. Big's satisfaction at AF's family's home. And eventually
00:51:33
Sebastian and Tif are sitting in a room with Mr. Big. They're unaware that there's a hidden video camera and it's
00:51:39
recording every second of their conversation, picture and sound. [Music] So, this is a chief's first meeting with
00:51:56
Mr. Big and and his people. Um, what did they say? What did they tell them about
00:52:03
about the murders? There's no doubt about it. Sebastian admits to doing the murders and he details how he did it.
00:52:10
Beginning with the mother, then the father, then the daughter, all beaten with a bat. Yeah. The way he confesses
00:52:18
on that uh undercover tape is is so matterof fact and and at times he even laughs about it. You you talk to him
00:52:26
about that. Your behavior on that tape when there's some laughing, did you think that the murder of the Rafé family
00:52:32
was some sort of a comedy? No, absolutely not. But we were lying and I was not thinking about the murder of the
00:52:41
Rafé family when I was talking. I was trying to pass off a story. And for whatever reason, I guess the way that
00:52:47
the whole ordeal affected me was to get nervous and to kind of giggle a bit. And
00:52:52
I mean, in one sense, I was trying to act casual. And in another way, I was, I guess, just genuinely giggling
00:53:00
nervously. Uh, you laugh when you say Bosman needed a little extra bat work. That's sick, isn't it? Well, yes. Uh, I
00:53:09
don't want to split hairs, but the quote is actually a little more effort. Uh, I
00:53:15
mean, not that it's much better, and I guess that is just splitting hairs, but at the same time, it's a little bit
00:53:19
different. Uh, it's not that's not any better. Effort is still outrageous. You laugh when you're talking about killing
00:53:26
Bosma. Yeah. Well, we were lying. And at that point, I felt very awkward because
00:53:33
I didn't know what to say about it to Al because we didn't do it. And I was making up a story. And I was chuckling
00:53:42
awkwardly because I didn't know what to say. And I was, we had already heard some of the details in the newspaper
00:53:50
about what supposedly happened there. And I was just in a really awkward position. And I was just kind of
00:53:56
chuckling nervously. Sebastian, aren't we looking at you on this videotape? The real
00:54:03
Sebastian Burns, the person who planned this murder, killed these people, and has no conscience to the point where you
00:54:11
can laugh about it. No, that's completely wrong. No, you are never seeing the real me on any of these
00:54:17
tapes, in my opinion. In my opinion, what an odd thing to say. Sebastian claims he was forced to
00:54:27
confess that he was afraid of what the mob boss might do to him if he didn't. So Aif is there that day and he also
00:54:33
confessed. Um they they needed both boys there, right? Yeah. But Aif claims that he also felt
00:54:43
trapped in that moment and had had no no choice that you know if they confessed the mob boss was going to protect him,
00:54:49
you know, and destroy that evidence down in Belleview. Uh, and if they didn't, who knows what would have happened to
00:54:55
them. I certainly had no way of dealing with the situation other than the one that the that that was offered by the
00:55:01
undercover operatives where they whereby somehow they would essentially magically
00:55:05
take care of all our problems. And I certainly I I can say that I almost enjoyed the irony of making a false
00:55:13
confession in order to obtain a true exoneration. I thought that was kind of neat.
00:55:20
Neat. It was neat making up a story about his murdered family. What can I say? And uh like Sebastian, he laughed
00:55:29
when he talked about the murder of his sister Bosma. You have declined to discuss the details of these murders
00:55:36
during the course of this interview. What you saw inside your own house, right? And yet in front of two mobsters,
00:55:43
you laugh about it and you give complete detail about what happened inside that house. I don't get it. It's easier to
00:55:48
talk about a fiction than it is to about the truth. I think in that way, um, I didn't have any emotional feelings about
00:55:56
the a fake story that I was telling. He doesn't ever have any emotional feelings. Uh, or it doesn't appear that
00:56:05
he's emotional. Anyway, to a lot of people, what the Canadian officers did feels like entrament and coerced
00:56:12
confessions. In fact, Sebastian's sister made a documentary about the Mr. big operation that got Innocence
00:56:20
International to take on Aif and Sebastian's case. But all of the appeals were denied
00:56:28
at the time when I was covering this and the way it was explained in court is that this was an undercover operation
00:56:36
that was completely legal in Canada at that time. Eventually became illegal, but at that time it was legal. And here
00:56:43
in the US, there was an exception called the silver platter doctrine, which said
00:56:49
that if an operation was legal in the country where it was conducted, it was then admissible here in the United
00:56:56
States. And defense attorneys tried to get the video thrown out, but the judge in Sebastian's trial allowed jurors to
00:57:05
watch it. And on it, the boys confess. Do you think they would have been convicted without those tapes?
00:57:12
I am not sure that they would have been convicted with what the neighbors had heard of these killings going on at a
00:57:20
time when the boys were seen in a movie theater. Um I think there is hung jury was a real
00:57:28
possibility or or an acquitt was a real possibility. This this was this was the moment, right? Or there may never have
00:57:36
been a trial, right? Those of you who've been listening to all this, what do you
00:57:40
think? Right. If that tape had not been played, um, would these boys have been convicted? I think there's a excellent
00:57:48
chance that they would not have been. So, a little over a year after the murders, they tell these Canadian
00:57:56
officers that they committed the murders, but it took nearly six years to extradite them. Why? Well, at the heart
00:58:03
of this was the death penalty. There is no death penalty for murder in Canada. And the Canadian government said they're
00:58:08
not going to extradite the boys until uh the judge in this case agreed to take and prosecutors agreed to take the death
00:58:16
penalty off the table, which eventually happened. Right. Both boys were represented by public defenders and
00:58:24
there's kind of a crazy story about how they were pulled off the case. Is it true that Sebastian had sex with one of
00:58:32
his attorneys? Yeah. So, I'll I'll leave her name out of it. She's been through so much. But he had
00:58:40
this dynamic um woman attorney that um was considered one of the best in the public defender's
00:58:47
office. She had gone uh to Japan to see Jimmy Mioshi. Remember he was Sebastian and Aif's roommate in Vancouver, British
00:58:55
Columbia. And uh Jimmy had been accused of conspiring in the murders. And and he
00:59:01
made a deal with the state to testify against his friends. And then he moved to Japan. Well, Sebastian's lawyer flew
00:59:07
to Japan to meet with him. And she came back. She was incredibly excited because
00:59:11
she claimed that Jimmy told her that he felt leaned on to make the deal. and she
00:59:17
was excited that that if she could present this in court, it would completely undermine him as a as a
00:59:23
witness. And I was told by the prosecutor in the case uh who talked to the guards who who watched some of this
00:59:29
unfold, she ran into his uh meeting into the meeting room. Um she gives him this
00:59:36
big hug. She tells him the news. They hug again. And then the hug immediately progressed into um removal of clothing.
00:59:45
um a guard who was watching all of this called two other guards over and cuz they were on a slightly second floor
00:59:53
that they could look down and see this window on the door. This small window could see inside and they said, "Do you
00:59:58
see what I see?" Okay. Do you see what I see? Yeah, we all know what that is. Okay. Well, then let's go break this up.
01:00:05
And it's a felony to have sex with an inmate in in jail like that. and uh she uh had her law license suspended. She
01:00:16
was taken off the case and she had a partner who was who was uh incredibly bright and talented and the two of them
01:00:22
were were taken off cuz they were a team. So when these two defense attorneys come instead of having years
01:00:29
of research behind them, they had a few months to get prepared for this and uh that was devastating to Sebastian and
01:00:38
Aatif's case. So, speaking of Jimmy Moshi, he had a lot to say in his deposition. Um, he
01:00:54
said that a thief told him that he had wanted to kill his family and that he was present when Sebastian killed his
01:01:02
mother. Yeah. He said he'd been present when Sebastian had discussed their plans
01:01:08
to murder the family. And he specifically said he recalled them saying that they plan to stay at the
01:01:13
Rafé home for a few days before the murder so their DNA and hair would be explainable when it was discovered uh
01:01:21
during forensic examination. Part of the plan, part of the master plan. So there
01:01:27
was a bit of physical evidence that showed that there might have been someone else involved in the murder, at
01:01:33
least of Tariq. What was that? Well, there was a hair, just a single hair, found on the body of Tariq Rafé that
01:01:41
didn't belong to anyone in the family or Sebastian. Now, of course, Tariq worked
01:01:46
in the outside world, and being at work, if somebody had given him a hug or anything else, you could see
01:01:51
transference there. Uh, but there was also, and this was really strange, there was blood in the garage that was
01:01:58
discovered that didn't belong to anyone in the family or to Sebastian. M and also then don't forget the two neighbors
01:02:07
who testified that they heard a commotion at the house at a time when the boys were in that movie theater.
01:02:13
Right. Right. So Sebastian took the witness stand, which doesn't surprise me at all. What about you? It doesn't
01:02:21
surprise me. I'll use that phrase, brilliantly stupid. Uh his attorney said, "Don't do this. We have a chance."
01:02:30
there's um some reasonable doubt in here and um do not do this. And Sebastian insisted if he was anything like he was
01:02:39
in your interview, I can only imagine that the jury just hated him. Yeah, it's it he had that same attitude, right? He
01:02:49
was very put out while answering questions. Um, and uh that that attitude is of I'm smarter than you. Uh, and I'm
01:02:58
the one you should believe. So, at at his sentencing, Sebastian never showed any remorse, told the
01:03:06
jurors they were wrong, and went on for nearly 2 hours. What did he say? Yeah, I
01:03:12
was there. Um, this was a theater in the round, uh, oneman performance. He talked
01:03:19
to the judge directly, but also then turned back to talk to the people in the room, all of us that were there. Um, he
01:03:26
insisted he was innocent, repeated himself over and over about why the jury was wrong. He threw his defense team
01:03:32
under the bus, called them ineffective. He claimed he didn't know he would testify until the morning of and was
01:03:38
unprepared. That's not true. Defense attorney had had told me that they had urged him not to do this. He forced them
01:03:44
to put him on the stand. He insisted that he had not had his day in court and asked that if he could have a new trial
01:03:50
and represent himself. The judge told him to wrap it up many times. This is what the judge said when he
01:03:58
sentenced Sebastian to three consecutive life sentences. Mr. Burns, you are not immoral. You are amoral. You are an
01:04:08
arrogant convicted killer. You are not a kid as you so often refer to yourself. You're an adult and you will be held
01:04:15
responsible as an adult for your premeditated naked vicious massacre of this family. Of all the mic drops I've
01:04:25
ever heard delivered from the bench, that was epic. If I may say, a touch of genius from the judge. Such as Zatif
01:04:34
might say, such irony for the two geniuses whose brilliance and arrogance had turned on them and led to their
01:04:42
demise. Yes. Yes. On the other hand, Aif seemed to get choked up at his sentencing. He didn't admit to his
01:04:51
crime, but he showed remorse for his behavior for the first time. And um I had interviewed him and things. Uh I saw
01:04:59
some humanity there. Um the big question always in a situation like that is is he sad for what he did or is he sad
01:05:10
that he got caught? Right. Exactly. And was it genuine or was he just terrified?
01:05:17
[Music] So they both got three consecutive life sentences without the possibility of
01:05:22
parole. And of course they vowed to fight their wrongful conviction, but they're never getting out. Right.
01:05:30
Well, it's doubtful now. Uh Sebastian has exhausted all of his appeals. Uh T has one more to go, but I I think it is
01:05:42
very it is very doubtful that uh uh that they will ever see life outside of a prison cell. Here's an exchange I had
01:05:52
with Patif. How would you describe what has happened to you? Um, I don't know. I guess we'd have to use
01:06:02
words like disaster and calamity and other things. Um, it's very easy to fall into the rut of self-pity and so I try
01:06:10
not to think on it too much. Um, luckily uh it's very easy to uh I guess think of other things and fall
01:06:20
into a sort of uh unmindfulness of your present situation. And here is Sebastian.
01:06:30
Do you still see the images of of their bodies when you think about the Rafé house? When you think about that night,
01:06:37
can you still see it in your mind's eye? Is it something you live with? That memory?
01:06:46
Truly, I don't know. It was something that was very much with me for I know the the first year after it
01:07:04
happened. Um especially with the first few weeks. Um it's been 10 years now and so and
01:07:15
a lot of ways I'm over it. Why do you think they never turned on each other? I still believe that they believe and
01:07:26
this is what has sustained them all these years is that one day they will outsmart the system on appeal. They're
01:07:34
down to their last one for a could ever have turned on Sebastian his his idol and his mentor. Right. So today
01:07:48
they're both 49 years old. They're still in custody in the Monroe Correctional Complex. Aif was married in in 2017, but
01:07:58
is now divorced. Not surprisingly, he seems to have been or is a model prisoner studying and teaching and
01:08:08
writing papers and articles. Um, all we know about Sebastian is that his parents
01:08:13
visit him once a month and according to them, he spent 10 years in solitary confinement.
01:08:21
Well, Peter, we could go on forever, but we won't. Yeah, somebody wrote a book about it. Yes, you did. My relatives
01:08:29
bought. Perfectly executed is the book. I wrote it with Janet Jackson, one of the producers. All right. Thank you
01:08:35
again. Yeah. And thanks for reliving this with me. It is It is one of the most extraordinary cases of my career
01:08:41
and one I'll carry with me forever. I can see why. 48 hours Killer Conversation is hosted
01:08:50
and produced by me, Judy Ryback. Our story editor is Mora Walls. Alan Pang oversees recording, mixing, and sound
01:08:58
design, fact-checking, and additional production support from Rebecca Laflam. And special thanks to 48 hours executive
01:09:06
producer Judy Tyiggard and Paramount Podcast Vice President Megan Marcus.