00:00:06
[music] Harris County, no more. What's the location of your emergency? >> I just killed my sister.
00:00:15
>> Oh my god. >> Tell me what your name is. >> Benjamin Elliot. >> Okay, tell me exactly what happened.
00:00:26
>> I thought it was a dream. I I kicked my wife and I stabbed her. [laughter] [snorts]
00:00:34
Please, I don't want her to survive. Sorry. >> How old [music] is she? >> 17. We're twins.
00:00:43
>> Is she awake? >> Yes. She's like barely alive. >> Is there anyone else there in the house
00:00:49
with you? >> There is. It's my parents, but they're asleep. >> Okay. I need you to go wake them up.
00:00:54
>> Mom. Dad. We're going to have to start CPR right now. 1 2 3 4 1 2 chest. Just
00:01:03
like that. Okay. >> Where's your son? Where's your son? >> Okay. Okay. We got EMS is coming.
00:01:11
>> Okay. Slow down a little bit. 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 >> Can we take over? >> What happened?
00:01:22
>> It was a dream. He said it was a dream, honey. >> What the >> I don't know what
00:01:30
I don't know what I'll do if she was just a dream and then it wasn't >> I'm going to do a search of you real
00:01:36
quick and then I'm going to put you in the back seat out of this rain. Okay. >> What was your first reaction when you
00:01:43
heard about the case? >> I was skeptical. Why does he have a knife next to his bed at night?
00:01:49
>> This is the first study that we did on Ben. I'm Dr. Dr. Gerald Simmons. I'm a
00:01:53
neurologist, sleep disorder specialist. See, these are rapid eye movements. I was asked to review the case of Benjamin
00:02:01
Elliot. The claim was that he was sleepwalking and stabbed his sister. >> We have a video of him right here.
00:02:07
>> Oh, there he is. >> Yeah. Okay. >> You are convinced this was a sleepwalking incident?
00:02:14
>> Yes. >> Are you saying then that he did kill his sister, but he didn't intend to kill his
00:02:20
sister? I wouldn't say that it's impossible for someone to commit a crime while sleepwalking. I just don't think that
00:02:28
was the case with Benjamin Elliot. >> Were you able to find any evidence that there was a problem [music]
00:02:34
with these twins? >> No, we definitely looked into it and tried. The biggest thing that they're
00:02:40
hanging their hat on is the lack of motive. >> My name is Megan Long. I'm one of the
00:02:46
prosecutors on the case. >> [music] >> So, >> this is really hard, isn't it, Mike?
00:02:55
>> I hate this. I hate that she's gone. [snorts] >> This was not Benjamin's fault.
00:03:03
>> I've never thought of him as somebody responsible for this. >> What makes you so sure that you stabbed
00:03:09
your sister while you were sleepwalking? >> I would never have done that. I loved
00:03:13
her. She was my best and closest friend. Heat. Heat. [music] [music] >> [music] >> On the morning of September 29th, 2021,
00:04:12
17-year-old Benjamin Elliot was in a Harris County Sheriff's interrogation room in Houston, Texas.
00:04:20
>> So, what happened, Benjamin? >> You ever have like a really realistic nightmare
00:04:29
or like just everything feels real, but also off at the same time. Benjamin told detective Freder Munoz
00:04:39
that he stabbed his twin sister once with this knife, but had little memory of what had happened.
00:04:46
>> So, you go to sleep. What's the next thing you remember? >> The next thing I remember is like
00:04:56
the feeling of stabbing something. I was in her room and I turned on the light and I was panicking and I tried to
00:05:06
stop bleeding with the the the pillow. So I run in my room and I unplug my phone and I dial 911.
00:05:14
>> No more. What's the location of your emergency? >> I stabbed my sister. >> How many times did you stab her?
00:05:21
>> Just once. >> I heard the 911 call and I screamed. >> What's going on? I don't you what? And I
00:05:29
went to go move into the bedroom. As I moved, I I saw Megan and she was uh really not.
00:05:40
She was uh gray. You know, >> Michael Elliott remembers calling out to his wife Kathy.
00:05:48
>> I I heard Michael yell, "Oh my god." >> I was trying to figure out what's going
00:05:52
on and Michael said, "The police are here. >> Where's the brother at?" >> And I just
00:05:59
arriving paramedics took over CPR. >> They took Benjamin out of the house. He was shocked. He said it was a dream.
00:06:08
>> What the >> What did you make of that? >> I don't I mean I just I couldn't believe
00:06:11
it. I mean, I couldn't >> Not that Ben, you knew. So, it would have [clears throat] to been that he was
00:06:15
>> something would have had to happen. Benjamin, his parents say, sat handcuffed at a police car for three
00:06:22
hours while police, confronted with an apparent homicide, took control of the crime scene.
00:06:30
>> I just want to see her. >> We can't. No, we can't see her. >> Nobody would tell us if Megan was okay,
00:06:35
what was going on. >> Take a picture for me. Let me see something. >> Can we see something?
00:06:39
>> No, sir. The Elliott say they felt isolated by the police and eventually called a longtime friend who is also an
00:06:47
attorney. >> He went and got some information and he told us that Megan had died.
00:06:55
>> It was news police didn't share with Benjamin. >> Is she okay? >> Benjamin asked Detective Munoz several
00:07:02
times if his sister was all right. >> She is okay. >> But the detective withheld the truth.
00:07:08
>> Yeah. Last time I I know about she was uh being checked out by the EMS. >> Authorities say this is a textbook
00:07:15
police technique to keep a suspect talking and they wanted Benjamin talking about his feelings for his sister.
00:07:23
>> So, how's your relationship with Megan? >> Good. She's my twin sister. I'd do
00:07:28
anything for her. >> No rivalry there? >> No. >> You guys have any recent fights or
00:07:32
anything like that? >> No, we're pretty close for siblings. Benjamin, who spoke to police without a
00:07:38
lawyer, said he loved his sister and described what he says he remembered before the stabbing. Phone records show
00:07:46
he was scrolling the web. And Benjamin says he thinks he fell asleep somewhere around 2:30 or 3:30 in the morning.
00:07:55
>> Where would that phone be at right now? >> Somewhere at the crime scene. Benjamin provided Munoz with his iPhone
00:08:03
password and permission to search his phone. >> Have you ever been diagnosed with an
00:08:08
emot illnesses? >> No. >> Benjamin said there were no problems at home and said that he was looking
00:08:15
forward to college. >> I'm thinking about mechanical engineering. I'm taking the SAT I think
00:08:23
Friday. No, Saturday. And let me ask you, the knife that you had in your hands, >> where'd you get it from?
00:08:30
>> From my dad. He had given it to me that day. It was like a Air Force survival
00:08:36
knife. I was really enamored with it. Benjamin and Megan's parents had a big collection of knives and gear. The
00:08:45
family is big into camping. Kathy is senior manager with the Girl Scouts of America. Michael is a stay-at-home dad.
00:08:53
I know that if I had not given him that knife, this would not have happened. And I um
00:09:02
[music] after 2 hours in that interrogation room, at 11 a.m., Munoz finally revealed
00:09:15
that Megan was dead. >> I think the gun Megan did not make it. He and Megan are so close, you could
00:09:28
never picture anything bad happening between them. >> Longtime friend Drew Whitaker was
00:09:34
stunned to learn Benjamin was in police custody. >> He was very protective of her.
00:09:39
>> She says her family and the Elliots have been closed since 2005. >> Ben was very engineering focused.
00:09:47
Whitaker, herself an engineer, described Benjamin as soft-spoken, smart, funny, and a bit nerdy. While Megan was
00:09:56
sensitive, [music] wrote poetry, and loved to draw. As a teenager, Megan had been diagnosed [music] with autism. And
00:10:04
how did she feel about Ben? She loved him. She looked up to him. You would see her walk up next to him when she would
00:10:13
feel uncomfortable and just kind of stand by him. Did he ever get tired of having to take care of N?
00:10:18
>> I think he was proud of it. Like he liked he liked being a protector. >> The Elliott say the twins seemed happy
00:10:24
in the weeks before the stabbing with their [music] eldest child, Elizabeth already off at college. The twins toured
00:10:32
separate universities. >> Megan at this point had started coming out of Michelle as well. She was finding
00:10:37
her voice >> and she had found friends online and she had a [music] YouTube channel where she
00:10:42
was doing art. The night before Megan's death, father and son spent hours playing popular video games such as
00:10:51
Survive the Nights. It was in that video game that Benjamin noticed a [music] militarystyle knife that his father said
00:10:59
resembled one that he owned. Michael offered to give it to Benjamin. >> Unfortunately, I went and got the knife
00:11:06
out. >> The Elliots remember heading off to bed. Was there any, you know, any problem at all between the
00:11:14
twins? [music] >> The Elliots, like police, couldn't make sense of why Benjamin stabbed Megan, but
00:11:24
police had the teenager's confession, the bloody knife he used, along with a disturbing detail discovered at autopsy.
00:11:33
Megan hadn't been stabbed just once. She had two stab wounds. Benjamin Elliot was charged with the
00:11:43
murder of his twin sister. [music] After several days on suicide watch, 17-year-old Benjamin Elliot was released
00:12:08
on bail. His parents were there waiting for him. >> I saw them put him out and he just kind
00:12:18
of stood there on the sidewalk and I went, "It's okay." >> I went up to him and and he seemed I
00:12:26
told him I said, "Hey, Ben." You know, and and he seemed like like he didn't see me. He was surprised to see me.
00:12:34
We started driving and we we were asking him if he was okay and we were getting very
00:12:42
very quiet >> quiet like you know single word answers. >> So Michael pulls the car over um and
00:12:50
stops and and he gets up comes around and takes his face in his hands and he says he's like hi
00:12:58
>> we love you. Hi. And he just >> Yeah. And I saw him kind of sort of awake. >> And then he just hugged us.
00:13:14
>> Yeah. >> The Elliots knew they could never sleep in their home again and had already
00:13:21
moved in with Kathy's mother. >> Ben was worried that he might walk around. He was worried that he might do
00:13:27
something and he wanted to make sure everybody was safe. >> The Elliots were worried, too.
00:13:32
>> The first two nights I slept in a chair. >> Yeah. >> In front of the door. >> The couple even installed an alarm on
00:13:37
Benjamin's door. >> Because his attorneys had asked them not to speak with their son about the night
00:13:44
Megan was killed. They couldn't ask him the burning question, why? >> There's never been anything wrong with
00:13:50
him at all. >> Where my mind went to was a mental health >> something. Kathy's father was
00:13:56
schizophrenic. She now feared her son might be. So did Benjamin's lawyers Wes Rucker and Carrie Hart.
00:14:04
>> So we had a psychiatrist sit down with him. I fully expected her to come back
00:14:09
and say he's got schizophrenia or he's severely bipolar. When she calls me up, she said, "Wes, he's fine." It blew my
00:14:17
mind. >> They came to suspect that Benjamin experienced something else entirely.
00:14:23
He was actually sleepwalking when he killed his sister. Had either one of you ever had a case quite like this?
00:14:31
>> Never. >> No. >> You have a twin um causing the death of the other and the last thing you think
00:14:38
of is this a sleepwalking case. >> But Benjamin had told police that I stabbed his sister. It felt like a
00:14:45
dream. And his lawyers say that sleepwalking defenses have been used successfully in the past.
00:14:53
In 1987, Canadian Kenneth Parks drove his car 14 miles to his mother-in-law's home, beat her to death with a tire
00:15:03
iron, and stabbed her. He claimed he was asleep the whole time, and a jury believed him. And in North Carolina in
00:15:13
2010, Joseph Mitchell strangled his four-year-old son and attacked two of his other children, all while
00:15:21
sleepwalking. A jury also found him not guilty. >> The big question here is just whether
00:15:28
Ben Elliot in fact killed his sister while he was sleepwalking. >> Correct. >> Adjusting here.
00:15:38
So Benjamin's lawyers reach out to Dr. Gerald Simmons, a neurologist and a sleep disorder expert.
00:15:45
>> When I first was approached, I was very skeptical. >> The next question is, did I even want to
00:15:50
deal with this? My first reaction to this is, you know, well, who else are they going to go to? I
00:15:58
mean, within the field of sleep medicine, this is what I do. Simmons wanted to do a sleep study with Benjamin
00:16:05
to test if it's possible Benjamin could experience something called a parasomnia.
00:16:11
>> In general, think of a parisomnia as an abnormal behavior that occurs during sleep,
00:16:17
>> like sleepwalking. >> Sleepwalking would be a parasomnia. >> Simmons asked if Benjamin had a history
00:16:23
of sleepwalking, and his lawyers say he did. When he was about 10 years old, Benjamin's older sister, Elizabeth,
00:16:31
found him sleepwalking by her bedroom door. There was also a sleepover with childhood friends the night this photo
00:16:39
was taken. When Benjamin was found asleep on a couch eating a donut. When they woke him, he seemed surprised and
00:16:48
confused. Simmons also learned that there were other members of the Elliot family who sleepwalked. the likelihood
00:16:56
genetically is higher to have uh parisomnia, specifically non-remp parisomnas if there are other family
00:17:02
members that have had that. >> My uncle apparently used to sleepwalk when he was a teenager. He would go out
00:17:08
into the garage and you know with the tools and apparently he walked in on my mom one time when she was in the shower.
00:17:14
>> Kathy also had an aunt who once walked out of her house while she was asleep.
00:17:19
ran out into the woods in the middle of the night and was waking up in the middle of a thunderstorm outside.
00:17:25
>> Yeah. And here's a video of him right here. >> Simmons conducted two sleep studies with
00:17:29
Benjamin in his sleep lab 6 weeks apart. In each, Benjamin was hooked up to machines that monitor just about
00:17:39
everything his body did as he slept. >> This is brain wave activity here. So, we
00:17:44
did the sleep study. >> I saw that he had obstructive sleep apnnea. Obstructive sleep apnea says
00:17:50
Simmons is where the airway becomes partially blocked creating a disturbance in the sleep pattern. So he's sleeping
00:18:00
struggling a bit to get breath and that could be the trigger. >> Yes. >> A trigger that Simmons says could cause
00:18:07
a sleepwalking episode. >> Particularly when Benjamin's brain waves enter what is known as a nonrem slowwave
00:18:16
sleep. Now he's in slow wave sleep. >> This is slowwave sleep. >> Sleepwalking will typically occur in
00:18:23
non-REM slowwave sleep. >> During the sleep studies, Benjamin did not sleepwalk, but Simmons observed how
00:18:30
quickly Benjamin entered that nonREM slowwave sleep. >> So it was 11 minutes from the time we
00:18:37
turned off the lights until he was in slowwave sleep. This is important because on the night
00:18:43
Benjamin stabbed Megan, his phone activity [music] stopped at 4:17 a.m. It was just 24 minutes later that he was
00:18:53
on his phone calling 911. >> I just killed my sister. >> What you looking at? Simmons says the
00:19:00
fact that Benjamin is able to reach [music] slow wave sleep so quickly means it's possible Benjamin was sleepwalking
00:19:08
during [music] that period of time his phone was inactive. >> I thought it was >> Do you believe Ben killed his sister
00:19:20
without even realizing he was doing it in his sleep? Yes, Ben definitely killed his sister.
00:19:29
He did it. There's no question. He's the one that had the knife and he stabbed her. But I believe it was part of a
00:19:35
parasomnia. He didn't do this voluntarily. There was no motivation. >> Dr. Simmons findings [music] took
00:19:43
Benjamin's parents by surprise. >> It's scary as hell. If that can happen to us, then that could happen to anybody
00:19:52
with with the sleep problem. He realized he was sinking the knife into something or someone
00:20:14
and then woke up and realized it was his sister. After sleep expert Dr. Gerald Simmons
00:20:22
made his assessment that Benjamin was sleepwalking when he killed his twin sister, the Elliots were hopeful
00:20:28
prosecutors might drop the case. >> At that point, we thought it might not go to trial.
00:20:35
But in April 2023, a year and a half after Megan's death, a grand jury indicted Benjamin Elliot, then 19 years
00:20:44
of age, a first-degree murder. >> We just didn't think that what we saw was sleepwalking.
00:20:52
>> Megan Long and Maroon Coutani would handle the prosecution. It wasn't Long's first sleepwalking case. In 2019, she
00:21:02
successfully convicted a man who claimed he was sleepwalking when he shot and killed his wife. And Long told us she
00:21:10
herself was a sleepwalker, as were her children. Still, Long disputes the Elliot's claim of a family history since
00:21:19
she says neither of Benjamin's parents have been sleepwalkers. From our conversations with our sleep expert,
00:21:27
family history of sleepwalking is a factor. It's more prevalent when it's um like first-degree family members, so
00:21:34
your parents. The prosecutors hired their own sleep consultant, psychologist Dr. Mark Pressman, who concluded
00:21:42
Benjamin was not sleepwalking when he stabbed Megan. He says sleepwalkers become aggressive only when someone
00:21:51
physically interferes with them. and they respond by hitting or kicking or throwing furniture, but that's that's
00:21:59
that's like a reflex, you know, an instinctive reflex to protect themselves. And he points out that
00:22:05
Benjamin would have had to have unchath the knife before he used it in the stabbing, which Presman believes is a
00:22:13
complex conscious action, not an unconscious one. The next thing I [clears throat] remember is the feeling
00:22:22
of stabbing something. >> He also says it's unusual for a sleep walker to recall details the way
00:22:29
Benjamin did to authorities after he stabbed Megan. >> He remembered the feeling of the knife
00:22:36
going into the neck. >> Okay. So that's a memory. Okay. Should be able to have that memory.
00:22:42
>> Aren't there sometimes pockets of memory? >> Not in these cases. No. >> Dr. Simmons disagrees. He says Benjamin
00:22:50
told police what he could recall. >> If he was trying to fabricate this or just use this as an alibi, it would have
00:22:56
been just as easy for him to say, "I don't remember anything." Instead, he's I interpret it as he's trying to be as
00:23:03
honest as he can. >> But Pressman felt he had enough information to make his determination.
00:23:09
>> You didn't think you needed to talk to Ben? >> No. Prosecutor Long knew she needed more
00:23:15
than an expert's assessment to convict Benjamin, especially because she couldn't identify a motive for murder.
00:23:24
No one had witnessed any problems between the twins. >> Is there no motive because he was
00:23:30
sleepwalking or is there no motive just because no one's willing to come forward
00:23:33
and tell us? and they think they could convince a jury that Benjamin's actions were intentional that night, stabbing
00:23:41
Megan twice. One wound was 4 in deep and severed her corateed artery and jugular
00:23:48
vein. >> So, he's saying that he stabbed her in the neck, removed the knife with where
00:23:54
she was stabbed, blood would be coming out of her neck. You should see some sort of blood spatter on the walls, and
00:24:01
there isn't any of that. Benjamin had told police he used a pillow to stop the bleeding.
00:24:07
>> And I tried to stop bleeding with the pillow and it was behind her. I like to
00:24:12
did that. >> Long doesn't believe that. >> I think he wanted to cover her face. I
00:24:18
think maybe even muffle if she were to scream or anything like that. The only way for there not to be that blood
00:24:24
spatter is it had to be there when he took the knife out. It wasn't there for life-saving measures. But he's calling
00:24:29
911, so he's not trying to hide what he had done. Right. >> I think at that point when he's making
00:24:35
that 911 call, he realizes, I can't hide what I've just done. [music] >> What's your name?
00:24:45
>> I just killed my sister. >> Coutani claims Benjamin is whispering on the 911 call.
00:24:51
>> I stabbed you in your neck. and is suspicious why he's not yelling to his parents for help.
00:24:58
>> Please, I don't want to die. >> I think he's whispering because he doesn't want his parents to come to
00:25:06
[music] the same reality that he's now living in, that he took his sister's life. I think that that's why he doesn't
00:25:12
awake them before calling 911. I think that's why he doesn't scream in the house when he realizes what he's done.
00:25:20
And they argue Megan was already dead by the time Benjamin called 911. >> Okay, sir. Can we
00:25:27
>> can we take over? >> By the time EMS got there, she wasn't breathing on her own. She had no
00:25:33
heartbeat. Our medical examiner said that with the wound that she suffered from, she would have been dead within
00:25:41
minutes. Benjamin's interrogation raised even more questions. They say, especially when Benjamin described his
00:25:49
house as a crime scene. >> Benjamin Elliot is asked by Deputy Munoz, "Where's your phone?" Benjamin
00:25:56
Elliot responds with, "It's at the crime scene." And to us, that was significant.
00:26:01
Not many 17-year-olds would respond with, "At the crime scene." Most people would say, "At my house, in my room."
00:26:09
>> And there is more, says Coutani. His demeanor and his behavior is very calm. Certainly not the type of behavior you
00:26:16
would expect from somebody who comes to with a knife in their hand and their sister uh dead in the sleep of the of
00:26:24
her own bedroom. >> Could he be in shock? I mean, realizing what he had done, isn't that possible? I
00:26:32
think based on his response to Deputy Munoz in a couple portions of the interview, we can tell that he's not
00:26:38
necessarily in shock with what the consequences of his actions were. >> During the interview, Benjamin told
00:26:44
police that his sister had struggled with her mental health. >> My sister had um a pretty severe depression for a
00:26:53
while. To prosecutors, that suggested maybe everything wasn't so perfect in the Elliot family. [music] A contention that
00:27:04
Benjamin's lawyers find ridiculous. They say investigators made virtually no effort to learn about the Elliots or
00:27:13
Benjamin. >> They don't have a clue about this kid. They weren't even curious. >> He would know what was going to happen
00:27:21
to him if he killed his sister. There was nothing for him to gain. There was everything for him to lose.
00:27:27
There's just no reason why he would have done that. >> Before trial, prosecutors offered
00:27:34
Benjamin a 30-year plea deal. He turned it down. >> The tragedy is now the family lost their
00:27:42
daughter, but they're now losing their son. He's on trial for his life. >> [music]
00:27:57
>> All right. >> He's a victim. >> He went to sleep. He woke up and he he found out he had killed his sister.
00:28:05
>> After struggling [music] with Megan's loss, >> see, >> the Elliots now face the possibility
00:28:11
they could lose Benjamin, too. >> It's a nightmare that happened to all of us. >> All rise for the jury. Benjamin's
00:28:18
first-degree murder trial began on February 18th, 2025. >> You tell your colleagues, "I have a
00:28:25
client who killed his twin sister and we believe he was sleepwalking, and they think you're crazy."
00:28:30
>> But with no evidence of any problems between the twins, Benjamin's lawyers hope they could convince a jury that
00:28:37
sleepwalking is the only explanation. Even prosecutors knew the lack of motive could be a problem. I think our biggest
00:28:46
hurdle going into this trial was the why. >> So, you made sure you had jurors who at
00:28:50
least be open to the idea they may never know why Megan Elliot was stabbed. >> Right.
00:28:58
>> In his opening remarks, Maroon Katani made it clear that while there was no motive, they had their murderer.
00:29:06
>> He calls 911 at 4:41. Hello. Hello. I just killed my sister. >> I stabbed her [music] with a knife. Oh
00:29:18
my god. >> He's whispering. >> Prosecutors told jurors about Benjamin's behavior during [music] that
00:29:25
interrogation. >> And you'll see his demeanor in the interview, >> pointing to Benjamin's reaction when the
00:29:32
detective tells him Megan is dead. >> Sorry to tell you this, but Megan has succumbed to her injuries. And the
00:29:39
defendant says, Witnesses offer details about her wounds, the lack of blood spatter, and
00:29:49
the prosecution's theory that Benjamin covered Megan's head with a pillow while he stabbed her. And Benjamin's father
00:29:57
was surprised to learn that prosecutors would ask him to identify Megan's body for the record.
00:30:04
>> This is a photo taken from an autopsy. Sorry. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, that's [clears throat] Megan.
00:30:18
No further question drama. >> After the prosecution rested, defense attorneys Carrie Hart and Wes Rucker
00:30:25
took over. >> Good morning. >> Making their case about sleepwalking. >> And this is not a ruse.
00:30:32
This is not some defense to get Ben off of a tragic tragic set of circumstances.
00:30:37
This is a real phenomenon. >> And that call Benjamin made to 911. The defense says that's evidence he was
00:30:45
desperate to save Megan. >> He's saying things like, "Oh my god, >> I thought it was a dream.
00:30:51
>> I thought it was a dream. >> I don't want her to die. >> I don't want her to die." He's trying to
00:30:56
do CPR. >> Family friend Drew Whitaker told the jury about Benjamin's devotion to Megan.
00:31:05
Ever noticed that if the sweet kid or the tender kid change into somebody else? >> Absolutely not.
00:31:11
>> Appearing by Zoom, childhood friend Anan Singh told the jury about that sleepover
00:31:18
when he found Benjamin asleep and eating a donut. >> Just the sheer confusion on his face.
00:31:24
Like he genuinely seemed baffled as to how that happened. Benjamin's great aunt, Martha Knight Oakley, a
00:31:31
psychologist, told the jury about her own sleepwalking history, including finding herself in the woods one night.
00:31:39
>> All I know is I came to in the bushes clutching my dog. >> But the defense team star witness was
00:31:49
Dr. Gerald Simmons. He testified for four hours detailing the science and sleep studies that convinced him of
00:31:58
Benjamin's innocence. >> It totally fits in line with a process we call sleepwalking violent behaviors.
00:32:06
>> On rebuttal, prosecutors called their own sleepwalking expert, Dr. Mark Presman.
00:32:12
>> I concluded uh he was not in a sleepwalking state. >> How did you come to that conclusion?
00:32:18
>> He had memory. He is said to have come out of the state much faster than any sleepwalker could ever do.
00:32:26
>> In closing arguments, prosecutors described a deliberate murder. >> Benjamin Elliot walked into his sister's
00:32:33
room with this very knife and he stabbed her in the neck twice. There's no blood
00:32:38
spraying in the room. You know why? The only thing soaked in blood is the pillow
00:32:42
that he muffled her screams with. >> Benjamin's defense attorneys push back. you if you're trying to cover something
00:32:49
up, you're not calling 911. You're not begging for someone to help your sister. >> And they appealed for justice.
00:32:57
>> You do not convict a young man, a 17-year-old, because of how he looks or because how he answers interrogation
00:33:04
questions. >> But prosecutor Megan Long had the final word, and she suggested the family was
00:33:10
involved in a cover up that began with calling the friend who is a lawyer. >> And look, I'm a mother. I understand
00:33:19
wanting to protect your children. I get it. But you can't let them get away with
00:33:24
it. They have been protecting him [snorts] from the get-go. >> Long didn't leave it there.
00:33:30
>> They want to say that this family life was perfect, but we don't necessarily know what happens behind closed doors.
00:33:37
>> And what she said next stunned the courtroom filled with the Elliot family and friends.
00:33:43
>> I want you to look in this courtroom. There are so many people here for Benjamin. There is not one person here
00:33:51
for Megan. >> The judge let the prosecution continue. >> You have to be her hero. He knew exactly
00:34:01
what he was doing. There's been no remorse shown here in this courtroom by him. >> After 4 days of testimony, the case went
00:34:11
to the jury. >> We took a vote immediately. Jurors were divided. >> It was split 7 to five.
00:34:19
>> Could they reach a verdict? I was a sleepwalker and one of my own children used to sleepwalk too as a
00:34:39
young >> several of the jurors who decided Benjamin's fate knew a lot about sleepwalking.
00:34:44
>> You know someone who was a sleepwalker. >> Absolutely. Yes. Had a had a family
00:34:48
member. Yes. On my mom's side, my grandfather. >> But even with their experience, they
00:34:54
were deeply conflicted about Benjamin. And we spent a lot of time with the interview by the detective.
00:35:00
>> I'm taking the SAT, I think, >> Friday. >> He talked about how he was going to go
00:35:06
take the SAT. >> He just seemed to not have a lot of remorse. >> It didn't take them long to come to a
00:35:17
unanimous decision. >> All right. >> My understanding is that y'all have a verdict. Is that correct?
00:35:25
After 4 hours of deliberations, >> we the jury find the defendant Benjamin David Elliot guilty of murder is
00:35:32
charging the indictment signed by the foreman of the jury [music] printed by the foreman of the jury.
00:35:38
>> I remember hearing guilty and I was completely shocked. >> Benjamin Elliott, who did not testify at
00:35:47
trial, later spoke to 48 hours inside the county jail. No, I feel like this has been a
00:35:57
I don't know, a miscarriage of justice. Like it's I am not guilty of murder for my sister Megan Elliot.
00:36:06
>> Benjamin, now 21 years old, said he and his family were appalled by the way prosecutor Megan Long ended her closing
00:36:15
argument. >> There are so many people here for Benjamin. There is not one person here
00:36:21
for Megan. >> That was crazy to me. >> What do you mean? >> Everyone in that courtroom was there for
00:36:31
Megan. >> I understand wanting to protect your children. >> And his parents were outraged by the
00:36:37
statements made by prosecutors hinting to problems within the family. >> We don't necessarily know what happens
00:36:45
behind closed doors. >> They were lying. >> Yeah, it was horrible. They waited until
00:36:49
the closing when they knew that nothing could be said afterwards >> to to pull out these outlandish
00:36:55
implications about you don't know what happens behind closing. >> Yeah. She knows damn well there's not a
00:36:59
shred of evidence that anything unoured was happening in our house in our family.
00:37:12
Benjamin and his parents had little time to let the guilty verdict sink in. >> Does he have to say hug?
00:37:19
>> Yes. >> They were back in court for sentencing the following day. >> And he is the one that went into her
00:37:28
room that night and snuffed the life out of her. Prosecutors asked for 40 years,
00:37:34
but a member of the jury asked the judge for leniency [music] because he worried
00:37:38
about Benjamin's family. >> Stand up, Mr. Elliot. >> Judge Denilo Lo told the court he
00:37:45
[snorts] wanted a sentence that he could live with. >> I sentence you to 15 years in prison. At
00:37:50
this time, you will go with the >> The request for leniency says Benjamin makes him wonder if a few jurors have
00:37:57
more doubts than they wanted to admit. If you believe that I crept into my sister's bedroom and murdered her while
00:38:06
she was asleep, why would you possibly want leniency from that person? That person is horrible.
00:38:16
>> Are you that person? >> No, I'm not. I'm not that person. I mean, I'm I try to be genuine. I try to be honest.
00:38:27
Um, I'd like to think of myself as a good person. >> Benjamin says authorities misconstrued
00:38:34
everything he did. >> Started with that 911 call. The prosecutors say you were whispering on
00:38:43
the phone. Were you? >> No. That's ridiculous. I wasn't whispering. >> I don't want to get sorry.
00:38:50
>> I was panicked. I wasn't screaming into the phone cuz I'm just not a I don't really yell.
00:38:57
>> And Benjamin insists that as soon as he realized what he had done, he was trying
00:39:02
to help Megan using the pillow to try to stop the bleeding. >> The state says that you didn't use the
00:39:09
pillow to try to stop the bleeding. You did it to keep her from screaming. >> What do you say to that?
00:39:17
>> That's crazy to me. And there's absolutely absolutely zero forensic evidence for
00:39:25
that at all. >> And what about his seemingly calm demeanor throughout the police
00:39:30
interview? >> The plan is I'm taking the SAT. >> You're talking to a deputy and you're
00:39:37
talking about SATs and colleges. >> I'm trying to get my mind off of things. >> I've had some issues with school stuff
00:39:45
sometimes where >> I think you can see it in the conversation. I keep pretty much
00:39:49
steering the conversation away from what happened. I don't want to think about it.
00:39:55
>> As for learning Megan had died, Benjamin says he just shut down and that he was
00:40:01
desperately hoping she'd be okay. >> Do you feel you're guilty of anything? >> No,
00:40:08
>> you don't. >> No. No. I I don't think this is my fault at all. I used to blame myself for it
00:40:15
because it's like, I mean, I I was the one holding the knife, right? But I mean, I've come to realize
00:40:24
that I'm not, you know, I couldn't have done anything any different than what I had done.
00:40:34
>> And Benjamin says he misses his twin. It's really hard that she's not here. >> Isn't it hard to know that it's because
00:40:50
of you she's not here? >> Yeah. Yeah. It's really hard. We did everything together. Like we we
00:41:00
were we were very very close. And she was a wonderful person. She was an artist.
00:41:09
the way she looked at the world, she looked at it with like a creative mind. So she would just see just beautiful
00:41:17
things everywhere. >> New CBS next Saturday. This is the parking garage right here.
00:41:38
>> A man is found murdered in his car. >> I saw a body, a [music] person sitting
00:41:42
in a driver's seat. How do investigators catch the masked killer? >> Look at him just coming around the
00:41:46
corner like that. [music] >> Who painted cameras to hide the crime? 48 hours is all new next Saturday on CBS
00:41:52
and streaming on Paramount Plus. [music] Welcome back to Postmortem. I'm your host, 48 Hours correspondent and Marie
00:42:10
Green. And joining me today to discuss the season premiere episode of 48 Hours is 48 Hours correspondent Aaron Morardi.
00:42:19
Erin, how many seasons has it been for you now? >> Okay, I was trying to count and I think
00:42:23
it's 35, which means isn't this your first full season? So, you have a little bit to catch up with me. [laughter]
00:42:30
>> All right. I'm working on it. I'm working on it. I still with all those seasons under your belt, this is quite
00:42:37
an episode. I don't know if you've done anything like this one before. It's the perplexing case of Ben Elliot. He
00:42:44
murdered his twin sister Megan in 2021. They were both just 17 years old at the time. Now, Ben maintains his innocence.
00:42:52
He admits that he stabbed his sister, but he says he was sleepwalking and he did not intend to harm her. [snorts] So,
00:43:00
this is one of those episodes, Aaron, that throughout the hour, my mind kept on changing about whether or not, you
00:43:07
know, I felt it was intentional. I felt that, you know, whether or not he was guilty. I just I couldn't really decide.
00:43:15
You know, Amarie, I'm with you. I was conflicted as well when I first started on the story. I thought, well, that's a
00:43:22
novel defense. Um, you know, but I thought of it as a defense, but I have really gone 180. The problem here is our
00:43:31
judicial, our criminal judicial system that is based on adversarial uh sides. Uh, the courts want to find guilt or
00:43:40
innocence, guilt or not guilty. Um, in this case, we know he did it. He, you know, Ben Elliott admits he stabbed his
00:43:50
sister, but we don't know why or if he intended to. And the other problem with this case, which you and I will talk
00:43:57
about, is this is a young man who never shows a lot of emotion. >> Absolutely. We will get into his
00:44:06
demeanor, but before we even sort of get into the case, we'll just remind people
00:44:10
that if you haven't actually listened to this episode of 48 hours, you can do so.
00:44:14
You can find the full audio version just below this episode that you're listening
00:44:18
to in your podcast feed. Go take a listen and then come on back for this conversation. Okay. You actually have a
00:44:26
pretty unique perspective here. Um you are a twin, which I'm just learning. >> I am a twin. I have a twin sister. We
00:44:34
are not identical, but we are very close. And so this case hit me hard. It was hard not to look at this case as a
00:44:42
twin. I can't in a million years imagine hurting my twin. It's the person I knew
00:44:48
before anybody. Um, and in this case, there didn't seem to be any problem between these two people. So, how do you
00:44:58
make sense of that? Yes, the prosecution argues that Ben intentionally killed his
00:45:04
sister and that he wasn't sleepwalking, that this was just sort of an excuse, something that he made up. but they
00:45:10
never really established a motive. And me as the viewer/jur watching this, that bothered me. What was so troubling about
00:45:20
this case is that not only was there no evidence of a motive or a problem between these twins, everyone uh that
00:45:30
the prosecution talked to said that that Ben loved his sister and and loved being
00:45:36
her protector. she was she had been diagnosed um as autistic and he according to the witnesses wanted to
00:45:45
protect her. But here's something else to think about. They couldn't find any evidence um on either one of the twins
00:45:54
phones. You would think if there was a problem between the two there'd be some kind of text uh trail. Uh another thing,
00:46:03
this is a young man who used his phone all the time. if he was just going to use sleepwalking as a defense, an
00:46:11
excuse, wouldn't you think he'd do some research? They didn't find any. Uh, so I found
00:46:17
this all so troubling because again, the prosecutors say he's a danger to society. That's why they charged him
00:46:26
with firstdegree um and and fought to get him convicted of firstdegree murder. And yet there's
00:46:34
no evidence other than the act itself, which is pretty awful. Uh that that he really intended to do this.
00:46:44
>> Mhm. I I think that though that that would have helped me as I was watching the hour if they could give me a re the
00:46:50
why even though they don't really have to. Um but the other thing that I kept on thinking about as as I was watching
00:46:56
the hour is just how much do you know about sleepwalking? I think immediately what comes to mind is sort of this
00:47:02
visual of this person walking with their eyes closed and their arms out sort of zombie like not you know somebody doing
00:47:10
sort of complicated tasks but I have to say I have heard some crazy things about
00:47:15
people you know could be an urban myth but I mean cooking a turkey while sleep walking and that all that sort of stuff.
00:47:22
>> Well you know it's not crazy for someone to to actually cook while they're sleeping. I learned that. Um so just so
00:47:29
that people understand what it is there's a large category uh called parasomnio and sleepwalking is one of
00:47:39
those um so is sleep eating or if you want to say sleep cooking um and it really happens and it's more common than
00:47:49
I realize it is. Uh but crimes committed uh while you're sleepwalking is less common although it does happen. Here's
00:47:59
the real problem Amarie and it was a problem reporting on this. There are no usually no witnesses to somebody
00:48:07
sleepwalking and so they sometimes have to kind of guess about what happens during those episodes. So we have
00:48:16
experts because they were used in the trial uh both on the defense side and on the prosecution side and both sides
00:48:23
agree that parasomnia sleepwalking does occur. They also agree when it occurs it
00:48:31
it occurs during a period of your sleep which is nonrem slowwave sleep. Um and it's when you're almost like in a
00:48:41
twilight zone between sleep and being awake. But then the experts disagree. And here's the problem. You have the
00:48:49
defense witness saying that there are pockets of memory and that's why Ben Elliot could remember stabbing, [snorts]
00:48:58
but the the states witness says there are no pockets of memory. The fact that he could remember stabbing his sister
00:49:06
meant he was not sleepwalking. And you know what we're talking about here too is not just sort of like stumbling
00:49:13
around your bedroom, right? We're talking about a very violent act. I do the experts have any opinion on what
00:49:22
might cause someone who's normally not violent to act out violently in their sleep? Dr. Pressman, the prosecution
00:49:29
sleep expert, said that something has to happen to the sleepwalker. somebody has
00:49:35
to interfere with their movement. Uh but again, because in most of these cases, there are no cameras, no witnesses, they
00:49:45
don't know exactly. We don't know what happened in that bedroom. Did Megan wake up? Did she put a hand up to try to stop
00:49:54
him? We don't know. Dr. depressment. Um he said something along the lines of, you know, he knew that he wasn't
00:50:04
sleepwalking because he came out of it quickly. And I just sort of thought, how did he know how quickly he came out of
00:50:10
it? Because there were only two people in that room and it certainly wasn't the expert.
00:50:16
>> Exactly. He's claiming that the fact that Ben said, "I remember stabbing her meant that he had come out quickly to
00:50:26
have that kind of memory." Uh, Dr. Presman says he shouldn't have any memory of it. The prosecution actually
00:50:34
used uh the fact that Ben had some memory against him by saying that Ben had actually killed his sister earlier
00:50:42
and had time to come up with uh a story. Uh and then calling 911. >> Again, as you point out, Emory, there
00:50:52
were no cameras. There were no witnesses. We don't know and the experts don't know. Mhm. So, here's kind of like
00:51:00
my journey uh with Ben, right? Initially, I just thought, you know, his presentation is a little odd. And it
00:51:09
starts with that 911 call. At this point, you've listened probably to hundreds of 911 calls. You know,
00:51:16
sometimes people are frantic and yelling. Sometimes they are very measured and controlled. They want to
00:51:22
get the information out. Ben had this soft whispery voice. It just was a little odd.
00:51:29
>> Well, and it was odd to the prosecutors. That was part of the trial. The in fact,
00:51:35
the prosecutor imitated the phone call in front of the jurors and was whispering. And that's fair to an extent
00:51:44
because certainly when you listen, as you did, Amory, it does sound like he's whispering and he may have been. But I
00:51:51
also want to point out that when I met Ben Elliott in the jail and interviewed him, he is very soft-spoken. Yeah. And
00:51:58
he doesn't show a lot of emotion. And what he said to me was uh that he wasn't whispering. That that's how he talks.
00:52:08
>> But then why didn't he scream out to his parents? That was the other thing that
00:52:12
kind of bothered me. I thought like why is it that the parents are finding out what's happening, you know, when the
00:52:18
like cops are showing up? Like why wouldn't he say, "Oh my god, help me." >> Well, you know what, Emry, that is such
00:52:24
a good question and it's certainly what the prosecution pointed out. Like why did he call 911? Why did he keep his
00:52:31
voice down? He didn't want his parents to know. And that's possible. But can I just point out here's where my
00:52:38
experience as a twin comes in. Uh so when you are a twin, whether you're identical or not, you have a real
00:52:46
closeness. That is who you share everything with. And I just want to throw out that possibility that as a
00:52:53
twin, he was calling 911 because he was thinking of his sister and then didn't think about calling his parents until
00:53:01
the 911 operator asked him to. It's a possibility. As a twin, I see that as a possibility. I think the other thing
00:53:10
that really surprised me about this episode is just how many people are familiar with sleepwalking. because I
00:53:16
kind of went through it's nowhere close to sleepwalking but my husband talks in his sleep and when we first met it would
00:53:24
be sort of this mumbly stuff that I couldn't understand but it's definitely progressed over time but I mean one of
00:53:30
the prosecutors was a sleepwalker her children jurors knew sleepwalkers I I was like how many people are
00:53:36
sleepwalking and then I also thought could that have an impact on you know whether or not they thought he was
00:53:45
guilty or innocent because I don't I don't know. Do you know if their familiarity with sleepwalking had an
00:53:51
impact on how they decided this case? >> I think Emory, it was a double-edged sword. In one hand, it helped the
00:53:58
defense because because you had jurors who knew that sleepwalking exists and they heard
00:54:06
during the trial that Ben seemed to have a a history of sleepwalking. The other side of that uh sword is though that
00:54:15
committing a crime while sleepwalking is very rare. Uh none of the people who were familiar with sleepwalking knew
00:54:23
someone who committed a crime. And I think that's hard for someone to believe that even jurors who knew that people
00:54:31
sleepwalk to believe that someone could actually commit a terrible crime like this. Uh they also heard testimony for
00:54:39
doc from Dr. Presman who says that >> during sleepwalking you can't >> have conscious thought um and made a big
00:54:48
deal that in order for Ben to have stabbed his sister he had to pull his knife out of the sheath and Dr. Presman
00:54:56
testified that that was too much of a conscious thought. Uh and yet you and I know um that there have been cases
00:55:05
[music] where somebody has driven uh and then committed a crime while sleepwalking and the jury acquitted that
00:55:16
person of murder. >> Welcome back. Uh let's dive into the really chilling body [music] cam
00:55:24
footage. When first responders arrive on the scene, Ben is giving Megan CPR compressions. His parents, uh, Michael
00:55:32
and Kathy, they are there. They are distraught. They are confused. They ask police what has happened to their
00:55:40
daughter, Megan. Well, Emory, at first glance, when you see that body cam footage and you see these parents asking
00:55:48
and the police are saying, "We're not going to tell you." It seems cruel at first glance, but you have to realize
00:55:54
that they're walking into that house not knowing what happened, who exactly was involved. They just know someone inside
00:56:03
that house was involved. Maybe they all were. And so until they could really understand what happened, they did not
00:56:10
want to share any information. They didn't want anyone in the house sharing stories, getting a story together until
00:56:17
they could figure out exactly what did happen. It really makes more sense when you look at it from the vantage point of
00:56:24
these investigators walking in cold. It it does make sense. I imagine for Michael and Kathy though, as this whole
00:56:32
thing sort of continues to unfold, they then decide that they're going to call a family friend who happens to be
00:56:39
an attorney. Now prosecutors use that decision a little bit against them, frame it like it's a very suspicious
00:56:47
thing to do. Well, and we see this over and over again in these cases, Amarie. So the
00:56:55
family wants to know what to do. Most of the time they've never been involved in
00:57:02
a situation like this. So they had a friend who was a lawyer and and in fact that lawyer helped them find out what
00:57:10
happened to Megan. That's how they found out that their daughter had died. But then at trial it was used against uh the
00:57:18
family by the prosecution. And we see that happening over and over again in cases. Um the prosecutors said that the
00:57:26
family um had conducted a cover up from the and I'm quoting the get-go, you know, from the very beginning because
00:57:36
from the prosecution's viewpoint, if you have nothing to hide, why are you calling a friend who's a lawyer? So
00:57:43
Ben's family, you the his parents, they're already going through this heartbreaking experience. But now part
00:57:51
of the prosecution's narrative is and they're involved in a cover up. Their head must have been spinning. Can I just
00:58:00
tell you this was one of the most emotional interviews I've done with parents as you can imagine. They have
00:58:06
lost a daughter. They are they feared they'll lose their son. They for the first time I found out that they thought
00:58:14
maybe he had schizophrenia. They really seemed and they said to me that they really wanted to know what happened. So,
00:58:22
they were very upset with the idea that anyone would accuse them of a cover up. And they point out that Ben was willing
00:58:31
to talk to the state's expert, sleep expert, but that the state sleeps expert did not want to talk to Ben. uh that
00:58:40
expert felt he had enough information by looking at the reports and and every evidence in the case and did not need to
00:58:48
talk to Ben was what what he said to me. So the family was devastated with the claim that they were trying to cover up
00:58:56
because that's not how they saw it. The jurors really got to see Ben Elliot's police interrogation.
00:59:04
I'm curious as to, you know, what they felt about his demeanor and what you felt about his demeanor because you
00:59:12
spoke to him. >> That's the hard part, Emory, in these cases. Um, we are judging people by how
00:59:20
they act under the worst moments of their lives, but we've never met those people before. So, it's a very tough
00:59:27
part of any criminal trial to try to figure out how do you judge the demeanor of somebody. The Ben that I saw on
00:59:37
police cam footage was very similar to the Ben I met uh when I saw him in the jail. uh he was a little more animated
00:59:50
with me because apparently his grandmother was and is a fan of mine. Um uh and so he did say to me kind of that
01:00:01
his grandmother under different circumstances would be happy to know that that I was the one who interviewed
01:00:08
him. So I saw more of a open talkative Ben. But through most of the interview, the Ben we saw in police cam footage was
01:00:18
pretty much the same guy I interviewed and his parents told me the same thing that that is who he is. I did talk to
01:00:27
him about um his affect and the fact that he was talking about things that seem so unrelated to what had just
01:00:34
happened to his sister. You see him during the interview with the the detective talking about, you know, he's
01:00:43
just been taken from his home after stabbing his sister and he's talking about taking his SAT. That struck me
01:00:51
when I saw it and he said to me that he had just shut down. He didn't want to believe that he had done what he had
01:00:58
done to his sister and he was trying not to think about it. So Erin, the other thing that really jumped out at at me
01:01:05
that bothered me, tell you the truth, is that he calls his home, he calls it a crime scene. Did Did you get a chance to
01:01:11
ask him why would you call it a crime scene? Well, I did. Um, and his answer was because it was a crime scene. I
01:01:21
mean, we hear him in 911 saying he's stabbed killed his sister. So, um, he clearly thought it was a crime. Um he
01:01:32
said he knew that they would cordon it off. I mean he kind of knew what the police would do. Um so he did not find
01:01:40
the fact that he had used that term unusual. So you know that was just some of what the jury um had to consider. Um
01:01:50
but there were other pieces of evidence that swayed them. What were kind of the big pieces of evidence for the jury?
01:01:56
>> Well, you point out demeanor was a big one. the number of stab wounds because
01:02:01
the prosecution did make a big deal about it and one of those wounds was very deep and the prosecution said that
01:02:09
that goes to the idea that he intentionally stabbed her. >> The prosecution also talked to the
01:02:16
jurors about the fact that according to the prosecution there should have been blood spatter. She was stabbed in the
01:02:24
neck. And the prosecution, and this is all just their theory, there was no proof of it, but the prosecution
01:02:31
argued that the pillow that was near Megan had been used by Ben to keep her from yelling and that kept uh blood
01:02:41
spatter from hitting the wall. But Ben had said to use the pillow, but he says he did it to try to stop the bleeding.
01:02:50
Mhm. Near the end of it was during their closing, the prosecutors told the jurors, "Well, we have no motive, but
01:02:59
you never know what goes on behind closed doors." And I think that really struck the jurors. So, the jurors
01:03:06
initially were split uh 7 to five, but then ultimately they all come around and it's a unanimous decision, right? They
01:03:12
find Ben Elliot guilty of firstdegree murder. I I just thought like maybe a lesser charge would have been more
01:03:19
appropriate like manslaughter or something like that instead of first-degree murder.
01:03:23
>> Yeah. I should also point out so when you say 7 to five, it was seven people initially were for guilty and five for
01:03:29
not guilty. Um when you see that these are young people and a young defendant, you might think, well, do you really
01:03:36
want to do first-degree murder? This his twin. But what you have is a 17-year-old
01:03:42
teenager who's dead. and you have two stab wounds. And I think the prosecutors, they believe he had the
01:03:50
intent to kill her and that's first degree and that's why he was charged with that. Um, and I should also point
01:03:56
out with the jurors that even though there were five initially who thought that Ben might not be guilty, they all
01:04:04
came around to a unanimous decision of guilt and were satisfied with that decision at the end.
01:04:12
Well, you say that um we know that prosecutors wanted a sentence of 40 years, but this might give us a little
01:04:20
window into what the jury was grappling with because a member of the jury asked for leniency.
01:04:27
It makes you wonder. Well, leniency according to the juror because he felt so bad for the parents. But I I do want
01:04:38
to leave you with this idea of what Ben said to me, which I thought was interesting.
01:04:42
Ben believes that some of the jurors did have reasonable doubts. Um, and he points out that the judge could have
01:04:50
sentenced him to 40 years, but instead chose to sentence him to a much shorter period of time. And he said to me, if
01:05:00
people really thought that he had killed his sister in cold blood, wouldn't they
01:05:05
want him locked up for the rest of his life? We'll remind people he got a prison sentence of 15 years. That makes
01:05:12
him eligible for parole in 2032. He will still be a young man, uh, 28 years old if he if he does get parole at that
01:05:21
time. >> And I do want to add, Emory, that um, Ben is appealing this verdict. >> How are his parents and her parents as
01:05:33
well, how are they coping? I it occurred to me that they probably barely had a moment to sort of get over the shock of
01:05:41
Megan's death and and even begin grieving for her before they had to pivot and think about Ben.
01:05:48
>> I have not spoken to them recently, but I did speak with them this summer, and
01:05:54
they are, as you can imagine, just devastated. When you speak with them, you can feel their pain. Um, and and
01:06:03
they're a little bewildered to this to this day, wondering why there wasn't in their mind more of an attempt to find
01:06:11
out what really happened in the early morning hours uh to Megan. They miss Megan. They worry about Ben. They have
01:06:20
an older daughter. And I noticed through the interview, they just held hands through the whole thing. And so I said,
01:06:27
>> "Oh my gosh, you guys, you're getting through this together. this and they said we couldn't have gotten through it
01:06:33
without each other and that was very touching to me. >> Absolutely. Well, this is unlike one
01:06:40
that I've seen so far on 48 hours. Uh I think you're going to take the viewers on kind of a bit of a roller coaster and
01:06:47
I'm curious to see where everyone lands once they watch it. Thank you so much, Erin.
01:06:52
>> Thanks so much, Emory. I think we're going to have this in our hearts for a while, too.
01:06:57
>> Indeed. Before we leave, Aaron, you have another podcast. Can you tell us about
01:07:01
it? >> It's called 15 inside the Daniel Marsh murders. Um, this is again one of those
01:07:09
cases that it's really hard to shake. This was not only a thrill killer, but he was just 15 when he killed two people
01:07:18
that he did not know, two strangers just to know what it felt like to kill someone. Uh, so it raises all kinds of
01:07:26
of important questions about what do you do when you have a 15-year-old killer who then is diagnosed as a psychopath?
01:07:34
Um, do you keep him in prison the rest of his life? What do you do? And the impact on the the victim's families.
01:07:41
It's it's a a very moving and chilling podcast. So, you can find 15 on your favorite podcast app. If you like this
01:07:51
episode, please rate and review on Apple Podcast or on Spotify.