00:00:19
John Green does what John Green does, right? I He's a charmer. He's a smooth talker. I think he could talk his way in
00:00:25
anyone's life. Beneath the surface, there's something really dark. Is this a man who just [music] happens to have
00:00:33
really bad luck, or is he a bad guy? >> He's a bad guy. >> We had good times together. I never uh
00:00:41
felt like I'm with a bad person. >> I think he's unlucky. I think he's unlucky. >> We were so happy when he met Kim Lark,
00:00:50
his wife. They went skiing together. They loved dogs together. I had not seen him so happy in all these years that
00:00:57
we've known him. >> I think John Green saw Dr. Kim and saw dollar signs. >> You think he targeted her?
00:01:04
>> Yeah, I do. >> It all turned sour really quick. They were not only separating, but he took
00:01:14
the dogs. >> She loves her dogs. Those are her babies. It's like if he had taken her
00:01:19
children. >> He's stealing your dogs. He's kidnapping your dogs. Oh, I was scared to death
00:01:24
that he would get rid of them. >> Now it became just one thing after another. He's on the road on the road
00:01:33
and on the run >> with the dogs. >> He's actually arrested in San Antonio. >> He's a thief. He's a liar, a con artist.
00:01:42
>> At Eddie County Detention Center, I met John and he kept asking me if I knew somebody that could kill his wife.
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>> [music] >> So, here's my husband in jail talking with somebody about the various
00:01:56
different ways to kill me and take care of my body. >> Do you believe that this was a real
00:02:01
plan? >> Yes. This isn't the first time he's been in question of a heinous crime.
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>> If he did it once, he can do it again. >> Who was this man really? >> He wasn't John Green. His real name was
00:02:18
Ted Maher and he had been convicted of an arson resulting in the [music] death of a
00:02:24
billionaire. >> I am innocent at >> so much of it still remains a mystery. I mean this guy's story is just crazy.
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>> [music] >> Carl'sbad, New Mexico, a small city dwarfed by a vast dirt red desert,
00:03:32
was home to John Green in 2017. That was the year a routine medical exam would become a turning point for him and
00:03:42
his new doctor, Kim Lark. The very [music] first day when he walks in, how would you have described him?
00:03:49
>> Smiling, happy, wanted to talk, just kind of made you feel comfortable. >> Months later, they began texting, then
00:03:57
dating. >> He liked everything that I [music] liked. We started skiing together. We
00:04:04
started riding bikes together. Early in their relationship, Kim says Green told her about his troubled past,
00:04:14
that he had been falsely accused of arson more than 20 years ago, causing the deaths of two people, including a
00:04:21
billionaire banker in Monte Carlo. >> I believed him at first. I kind of believed his side of the story. She says
00:04:34
she wanted to believe the best about the new man in her life. >> He said all the right things. He did all
00:04:41
the things that I needed my best friend to be. >> By the time they married on Valentine's
00:04:47
Day 2020, they'd already settled into a comfortable life. Kim had a lucrative medical practice, [music] an $800,000
00:04:57
retirement account tucked away, and a home on 4 acres outside of town. At that time, did you realize what he was
00:05:06
capable of? >> No, I had no idea. >> I think he's motivated by money, motivated by power. Molly Forester, a
00:05:15
documentary filmmaker and CBS News consultant, has spent years reporting Green Story for a new series streaming
00:05:24
on the Epis online platform. >> He likes skiing. It's just like he was a chameleon.
00:05:31
>> She says the man who calls himself John Green has led a life of deception. >> He's been able to fool a lot of people
00:05:40
and [music] caused a lot of trauma. trauma that would eventually crumble their marriage in just a few years, says
00:05:48
Kim. >> Just cuz he's so willing to lie, cheat, steal. >> In April 2022, Kim noticed her checkbook
00:05:58
was missing. >> That's when the bank called me and said, "Hey, did you write this check?"
00:06:05
She learned that her husband, seen here on bank security footage, was trying to cash thousands of dollars in checks by
00:06:14
forging her name at banks all over town. Kim filed for divorce and changed the locks on her house. About a month later,
00:06:28
he stole something else from her that mattered a lot more than money. He's kidnapping your dogs.
00:06:35
>> My dogs and my vehicle. Yeah. >> Storm Zero and Felony are not only precious pets, they're extremely
00:06:44
valuable, highly trained search and rescue dogs, says Kim. And she is their trainer.
00:06:51
>> We have a really special bond. My dogs are with me 24/7. For years, Kim and her K-9 companions
00:07:00
have assisted FEMA during national disasters [music] and law enforcement at crime scenes.
00:07:07
>> He could have taken anything except my [music] dogs. >> And Zero was pregnant at the time.
00:07:14
>> I really was scared to death. >> Kim believed her aranged husband might have taken the dogs to Texas and she
00:07:23
found someone there who could help. Abel Pena had [music] 26 years with the FBI before he retired and founded a
00:07:32
nonprofit called Project Absent to help find missing people. >> What is the difference between looking
00:07:40
for missing people and missing dogs? >> Dogs don't maintain a a paw print online. It's more challenging to try and
00:07:49
find dogs. >> It was more than a month before he got a good tip. And it wasn't about the dogs,
00:07:56
but about Green himself. On June 13th, 2022, Pena called law enforcement for help
00:08:06
staking out a parking lot in San Antonio. Shortly after Green arrived in a BMW, authorities arrested and charged
00:08:15
him with forgery and lararseny. He had changed his appearance, shaving his head. I ran over to the vehicle, looked
00:08:24
in the back [music] windows to see if the dogs were there. Um, the dogs were not there.
00:08:29
>> But Pena had another lead and headed to a nearby house belonging to the aunt of
00:08:35
one of Green's friends. >> I knock on the door and I'm greeted by an older woman. She was like, "I know
00:08:42
why you're here. Come on in." >> He found Kim's dogs in a back bedroom and by then zero had multiplied. There
00:08:51
were now eight puppies in a box. And how did you feel? >> I was ecstatic. >> Abel Pena took all 11 dogs to his house
00:09:02
and [music] waited for Kim to arrive. >> Look what we have here. >> Come on, Philly.
00:09:10
>> My girls were so happy to see me. I was so relieved. >> It was a fantastic ending.
00:09:18
>> Good boy. Kim was so thankful she named one of the puppies Abel after the man who had found
00:09:25
them. >> Bye >> bye. Thank you. >> See you later. >> Did you think at that point you had it
00:09:33
all behind you? >> Yes. The forgery and lararseny charges landed John Green here, locked up in the Eddie
00:09:44
County detention center in Carl'sbad where he met this man, Greg Markham, detained on drug charges. Was he angry
00:09:54
with Kim? >> Oh, he's furious with her. >> Markham says they bonded over a chess
00:09:59
board. >> I played chess with him every day. Got to know the guy. He kept asking me if I
00:10:05
knew somebody that could kill his wife. >> Greg Markham says he saw an opportunity
00:10:10
to make John Green his pawn. >> And I was like, "You know what, man? I can't find anybody. I'll do it. How do
00:10:18
you want it done?" >> So, you promised to kill his wife? >> I I said, "Oh, yeah, man. I'll do it.
00:10:23
I'll do it for you." >> Were you going to? >> No. No. Markham says he's a con man, not
00:10:30
a hitman, and was never serious about killing Kim Lark. >> Living on my own, it's me and my dog.
00:10:37
And >> he desperately needed bail money, he says, to save his dog, Atlas, from being
00:10:43
euthanized. >> I got to convince this guy to bomb me out so I can go take care of my dog,
00:10:48
make sure he's okay. >> He says Green paid for the bail. >> Once he was convinced that I was going
00:10:53
to do it, he wouldn't stop talking about it. Let's talk about it again. What are
00:10:57
you going to do? >> Markham says Green had a specific way he wanted his wife to die. He concocted a
00:11:05
lethal plot to poison Kim, forcing her to drink water laced with fentanyl to look like an overdose.
00:11:13
>> Yeah, I was supposed to mix up fentanyl pills and make sure she drank the whole
00:11:17
water bottle. >> If she refused, says Markham. Green's grizzly plan was to aim a gun, not at
00:11:24
Kim. but at her beloved dogs >> and she'll do whatever you want done. >> John Green fiercely denies all of it and
00:11:34
was determined to fight the charges against him as he had before in another courtroom on another continent.
00:11:44
26 years earlier, a roaring inferno engulfed a Monte Carlo penthouse, killing the billionaire and his private
00:11:53
nurse. At the fiery center of that mystery was the very same man with a very [music] different name.
00:12:21
Sundrenched Laidback Carlsbad, New Mexico, [music] isn't the only place where this man made headlines.
00:12:29
>> One of the world's richest bankers died today in a >> This isn't the first time he was accused
00:12:34
of a major crime. an American male nurse. >> And Kim Lark is not the only woman who
00:12:40
loved him. >> I've saved every rose he gave me. >> Every rose he's given you since you've
00:12:56
known him. >> Yeah. >> It was 2002 when I first met Heidi West. She was married to the man who would one
00:13:04
day become John Green. His name then Ted Maher. That name would become known around the world. The couple lived in
00:13:14
New York and had two children together meeting in nursing school. What kind of nurse is he?
00:13:21
>> He's a neonatal intensive care nurse. Some pictures with kids. Um just some of
00:13:26
the infants that he took care of. Ted told her about his time serving as a special forces green parade. He seemed
00:13:35
defined by intensity and compassion. >> You always put others first. He was just
00:13:41
so loving, so caring, you know, and I wanted someone like that. His compassion was on display in the summer of 1999
00:13:49
in the neonatal unit where Ted worked when two grateful new parents connected him to the job of a lifetime
00:13:58
>> to take care of a rich banker who we never heard of to be his private nurse. He had Parkinson's disease.
00:14:05
>> Edmund Saffro was that rich banker. And he wasn't just regular rich. He was one
00:14:12
of the richest men on earth. the bank. Saffra owned it, living with his elegant wife Lily in this penthouse
00:14:23
above this bank branch here in the Monte Carlo district of glittering diamondsiz Monaco
00:14:34
tucked along the exclusive French Riviera. >> Obviously, we've never seen the world,
00:14:40
you know, like that. So when Saffron made the offer, Ted couldn't refuse, says Heidi, despite having to leave his
00:14:48
family. >> We thought this is just temporary and we have the rest of our lives to get
00:14:52
together afterwards. >> It was that October when Maher's fascinating new job brought him to
00:15:00
Monaco. >> It was just a different world. He kept saying he liked it. He liked Mr. Saffer
00:15:07
very much. They got along well. Mahers sometimes worked the night shift at times with nurse Vivien Torrene
00:15:15
along with his private duty nurses. Saffra also kept a personal security force for protection.
00:15:24
We didn't know who this man was. It was all [music] new to us. >> December 3rd, 1999.
00:15:33
I was getting the kids off to school in the morning as usual and I got a phone call and it was Ted's sister who sounded
00:15:41
upset and crying. She asked me to turn on the news. >> Two masked men armed with knives invaded
00:15:50
the Riviera penthouse of Edmund Saffra. >> It was a startling report about [music]
00:15:57
intruders and a fire in the Saffra penthouse. Just 5 weeks after her husband left for Monaco, the billionaire
00:16:05
who brought him there and nurse Viven Torrene were dead. Autopsies would determine they had both [music] died
00:16:13
from smoke poisoning and Ted was wounded and bloody. Ted would tell authorities a story that
00:16:22
would be discussed and debated for years. He said that intruders broke into the penthouse, attacked and stabbed him,
00:16:31
that he scrambled to get help while his boss took shelter in a bathroom. Ted says he lit a small fire with a candle
00:16:39
and paper towels in a trash basket, thinking the fire department would respond quickly.
00:16:45
>> He knew the smoke detectors were direct access to the fire department, so he wanted to set that off.
00:16:52
Back in New York, Heidi was worried and she contacted Saffra's office. She wasn't surprised at what she heard.
00:17:01
>> They said that Ted was indeed a hero that night. I said, "That's Ted." >> And within hours, Heidi headed to
00:17:08
Monaco. >> I was to go straight to the hospital to see Ted. >> Did you? >> No. instead. Soon after arriving, Heidi says
00:17:18
she was intercepted by police. She had been told that Ted acted like a hero. That was about to change. As police
00:17:28
questioned her, Heidi says it became clear they thought her husband might be a killer. She alleges they took her
00:17:36
passport and used it as a weapon against Ted. When my passport was taken, they brought it to Ted to get him to confess
00:17:45
for this. And he was told then that I was strip searched and tortured and I would not be allowed to leave the state
00:17:52
of Monaco back to our family. >> She said that threat caused Ted to falsely confess.
00:18:00
He would now say there were no intruders, [music] that he had taken a knife and that he
00:18:05
had stabbed himself to make it [music] look like he had tried to save his powerful boss from attackers.
00:18:14
>> They're saying he gave himself a lidocaine injection prior to stabbing himself
00:18:19
>> and lidocaine what dead >> numb it. >> And Heidi says the confession he signed
00:18:25
was written in French, which Ted did not understand. I feel they wanted a nice clean ending
00:18:31
to this quick. It would be good for the state of Monaco to have their citizens feel safe.
00:18:39
>> Ted was locked up, charged with arson, an intentional act leading to the deaths
00:18:46
of Saffron Torrene. He faced life in prison if convicted at trial. This is someone I I know
00:18:58
>> and I know he didn't do this. >> Tonight's 48 hours will continue. A family patriarch disappears. [music]
00:19:15
The blame game goes round and round. >> It's a homicide. >> Absolutely. Follow and listen to Blood
00:19:20
is Thicker, the Ferris [music] Wheel, on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get
00:19:25
your podcasts. With the strike of a match, Ted [music] Maher's dream job went up in smoke. Two
00:19:43
people were dead, and Ted was now being blamed. I've known him now 13 [music] years. He would never hurt anyone.
00:19:52
>> Monaco's chief prosecutor says an American male nurse confessed to starting the fire that killed Saffra and
00:19:58
another nurse. >> The death of Edmund Saffra exploded into a sensational story that would fascinate
00:20:07
authors Jennifer Thomas and her husband Bill Hayes. >> If you saw this on the screen, you'd be
00:20:13
going this does none of this makes sense. This doesn't happen. There were allegations, none of them substantiated,
00:20:20
that might have supported Ted's original claim about intruders. Talk that Saffra
00:20:26
had enemies, that he had been the victim of a Russian mob hit. >> Saffra had an awful lot of connections
00:20:33
to Russia. >> And rumors were inflamed by a suspicious discovery. Heidi told us that the night
00:20:41
of the fire, Saffra's private force of security guards were oddly not on site. Was that usual?
00:20:49
>> Unheard of. >> There were also whispers about Saffra's stylish wife, Lily. >> The rumors about her and her previous
00:20:58
husbands. >> Lily had been married four times with one other husband also deceased,
00:21:05
prompting more conjecture. She is rumored to be a black widow who has inherited a lot of money from her
00:21:13
husbands. >> But police believe Ted was responsible for two deaths. It would take three long years to bring
00:21:27
Ted to trial. >> Hello. >> Hello. Heidi. >> Hi. >> How you doing? Okay. >> And in that time, Heidi was only
00:21:40
occasionally able to speak to Ted from his prison on the Mediterranean Sea. >> I'm not an arsonist or a murderer. It go
00:21:49
It goes against everything that I've done in my in my entire life. >> I try to be strong because I know he
00:21:55
needs my strength, too. >> Never forget this, Heidi. Never. I I love you. >> I love you. the that the happiness of of
00:22:03
a man in in his life I doesn't consist of of in my absence but in in what I retain and hold in my heart so you be
00:22:12
strong >> I just wish this wasn't my life >> we're going to the prison that is on
00:22:23
there >> New York lawyer Michael Griffith joined Ted's defense team Griffith had made a
00:22:30
name for himself self defending Americans abroad. Ted Maher became a client and a tough one.
00:22:37
>> Okay, let me go through some of the odd things about this case. Is there any evidence other than what Ted said
00:22:44
initially, any evidence of two intruders? >> There is no evidence that I know of any
00:22:48
intruders. >> Instead, Griffith would argue that Ted did what authorities said. he stabbed
00:22:56
himself and set the fire, but that he never intended for anyone to die. He was just trying to make himself look like a
00:23:06
hero. >> Ted is the firemen who started the fire. Firemen who start fires do it not to
00:23:13
hurt people, but to save people. >> Are you saying that you believe Ted actually did start the fire, cut himself
00:23:20
to make himself look like a hero? >> I believe that's what Ted did. Did he actually tell you he did this himself?
00:23:27
>> Well, yeah. He told me that that he did this to himself, and that's the basis of
00:23:30
our defense. >> Griffith contends that no one would have died that night if police and
00:23:39
firefighters had gotten to the victims faster. It took them about two and a half hours
00:23:46
[music] to reach Saffra and Torrene, but authorities say they got to the scene in minutes, but had to be careful
00:23:54
and slow their response because Ted told them there were violent intruders inside.
00:24:01
>> He's totally liable of the circumstances that he created. >> In 2002, attorney Mark Ben spoke to 48
00:24:09
Hours. He represented Saffra's widow, Lily. He says the rumors about her are false.
00:24:16
>> It's not only it's not true, obviously, it is scandalous. Lily is devastated by
00:24:21
what happened. >> November 2002, Heidi traveled to Monaco as the trial began. >> Ted was facing possible life in prison.
00:24:39
Do you think your husband will get a fair trial in Monaco? >> Not at all. >> Why not?
00:24:44
>> They have the reputation of Monaco on the line and >> they would never risk that.
00:24:50
>> She wasn't happy when Ted testified that there had been no intruders and that he
00:24:56
had in fact stabbed himself. And she was furious that Griffith allowed Ted to take the blame for something she
00:25:05
believes he didn't do. Heidi believes with all her heart that Ted didn't do this. That he's being forced to say he
00:25:12
did it. I mean, what's the truth here? >> Well, all I know is Ted is my client. I
00:25:17
know what Ted has told me. >> He was told this is the best way to go. >> Heidi, I don't know what to tell you.
00:25:22
All I know is I'm doing my job based upon what my clients told me. And I guess you're going to have to
00:25:28
>> and this is our life. This is >> This is your life. This is Ted's life, >> right?
00:25:34
Ted Maher was convicted of arson leading to the death of two people. >> Yeah, we were disappointed in the
00:25:42
>> He was sentenced to 10 years. >> Heidi >> to Heidi. It was the end of life as she
00:25:49
had known it. >> Yeah, she's she's upset. And then in January, just seven weeks after the trial, Ted called Heidi
00:26:06
from outside the prison. >> Ted said, "It's me. I'm out." >> He had cut the metal bars, scaled down
00:26:17
the prison walls, and escaped. >> I said, "You're joking." And he says, "No, I'm out."
00:26:26
He asked for money, and I said, "No." Oh, and he got angry at me. >> Ted's freedom was short-lived. The next
00:26:35
day, he was back in custody. Heidi was furious that he would risk so much, including [music]
00:26:44
having his sentence extended. She says her faith in Ted had run out. >> I don't need him, and I don't want him.
00:26:54
I did the best I could to bring him home, but now it seems like he's doing his own job of screwing up.
00:27:02
>> Heidi filed for divorce. As for Ted, [music] he was released in 2007. When he landed at JFK, the woman who had
00:27:16
believed in him was nowhere to be found. But Ted would eventually find others in
00:27:23
his corner. Those authors Jennifer Thomas and Bill Hayes. Together with Ted, they would write framed in Monte
00:27:32
Carlo. Ted was back to insisting that while caring for Edmund Saffra, he was attacked by violent intruders.
00:27:41
>> What they had accused him of doing didn't make any sense why anybody would do that in the first place. And so
00:27:47
everything he said made perfect sense when he told us the story. >> What Thomas and Hayes found intriguing
00:27:56
was a report in a French newspaper. According to Lef Figuro at an unrelated hearing, a judge who served on Ted
00:28:05
Meer's case had claimed Ted's sentence had been predetermined before the trial even began. And in your mind, the real
00:28:14
story is this guy was set up >> 100%. >> Back in the States, Ted [music] was alone.
00:28:24
Steady work tough to find, especially if your name was Ted Maher. And that new [music] name,
00:28:35
>> Don Green. Tonight's 48 hours will continue. >> 48 hours is back. >> 48 hours
00:28:51
>> and so is the official after show podcast postmortem. >> Great to be with you again.
00:28:56
>> Where we bring you a closer look at each case. >> This was one of the most emotional
00:29:00
interviews. >> Follow and listen wherever you get your podcasts. In his first 10 years back in the United
00:29:16
States, John Green tried to shed his alter ego, Ted Maher of Monaco. He found a new job driving trucks and began a new
00:29:27
romance with Dr. Kim Lark, who he went on to marry in 2020. But the marriage crumbled and in 2023, Green facing a new
00:29:38
charge, solicitation to commit firstdegree murder. >> Dr. Lark is a big name in this town.
00:29:48
She's well known by a lot of people. Grie was still behind bars for forging those checks and stealing the dogs when
00:29:56
Detective Garrett Silva of the Eddie County Sheriff's Office began investigating the alleged plot that
00:30:02
Green made with his jailmate Greg Markham to murder Kim. >> Greg Markham was hired by John Green to
00:30:10
kill his wife. It was a charge that Green vigorously denied when investigators interviewed him in
00:30:17
September of 2023 >> on harming Dr. Lark. Is there anything that we need to be aware about for her safety andor yours?
00:30:30
>> No. Absolutely not. None. >> I think you know where we're going with this. >> You think that I'm going to have
00:30:37
somebody harm Kim? Absolutely not. But authorities weren't persuaded. John Green's trial began on March 3rd,
00:30:47
2025. Prosecutor Martin Wolson called his star witness, Greg Markham, to the stand.
00:30:54
>> Mr. Markham, did John Green instruct you on how you should carry the murder out?
00:30:59
>> Yes, in great detail. >> Kim Lark took us through the house where it was supposed to happen. What's he
00:31:07
supposed to do? turn off the power to the house. >> I I've been an electrician for 19 years.
00:31:13
I knew how to do that. >> And where was he going to be? >> He was supposed to be hiding in the
00:31:19
carport. >> Now, this used to be a carport here. >> He said, "She's kind of pretty frail.
00:31:23
You're a big guy." >> Markham says the plan was for him to overpower Kim and grab the gun she kept
00:31:30
in the center console of her car. >> Apparently, he was going to bring me into the house. He told him how to
00:31:39
control my dogs. >> Show it to me. >> Yeah. So, so you're raising your hands up as high as you can get and you yell
00:31:45
damn as as loud as you can and slam your hands down and them dogs stop and they won't move until given another command.
00:31:53
>> According to Markham, Green also told him where he could find Kim Lark safe. >> You would only know that if somebody
00:32:01
told you that, right? There's no way you would. >> Yeah. But defense attorney Blake Duggar
00:32:06
told the jury Greg Markham is no angel and that they shouldn't believe a word he says.
00:32:12
>> One of the greatest powers you have today is the power to judge someone's credibility.
00:32:17
>> Greg Markham is an individual uh with a checkered past who really um tried to
00:32:24
take advantage and did take advantage of John Green. >> But the state presented evidence they
00:32:29
say proves Greg Markham was telling the truth. a diagram Markham made with similarities to the interior of Kim's
00:32:38
house. He testified John Green had [music] detailed it to him as part of the murder plot.
00:32:45
>> You described a long hallway beside the back door. >> And prosecutors had evidence that Green
00:32:51
was in a hurry to get money to pay Markham for the hit. jail calls between Green and author Jennifer Thomas, who
00:32:59
was managing his finances while he was behind bars. Green called her multiple times, asking her to wire $2500
00:33:10
to an intermediary. First, he said he wanted the money to buy a trailer, but his story kept
00:33:17
changing. >> Would that be a pain for you to do? >> There's many ways I could send money to
00:33:22
him. Thomas eventually did what Green asked, but she was stunned when she learned the prosecutors believe the
00:33:30
money was really partial payment in a murder for hire. You had gotten the money for him. I was freaked out.
00:33:39
>> She said she and Hayes were relieved when the DA decided they had not knowingly done anything wrong. Blake
00:33:47
Duggar insisted his client didn't either, arguing even Greg Markham's diagram wasn't damning because it could
00:33:56
have been cooked up after a casual conversation with Green. >> It is not a crime for a man to proudly
00:34:04
describe how his house looks in front of people. John Green didn't testify and Duggar
00:34:10
didn't call any witnesses, believing that prosecutors had failed to prove their case. After just two days, it was
00:34:19
in the jury's hands. >> I was feeling good. I was feeling good. The jury deliberated for only about an
00:34:40
hour. >> We find the defendant, John Green, guilty. >> They convicted him of solicitation to
00:34:51
commit firstdegree murder. >> His lying [music] has finally caught up with him. Judge
00:34:58
David Finger sentenced John Green aka [music] Ted Maher to 9 years in prison. With time served, he'll be out in less
00:35:08
than three. For nearly 25 years, we've had questions for Ted Maher. New Mexico authorities
00:35:17
barred our cameras from the prison. But in March of 2026, Ted's attorney, Blake Duggar, arranged a video visit with him.
00:35:26
and Ted allowed us to interview him. Did you try to hire someone to kill your wife?
00:35:32
>> No, I did not. Absolutely not. I shouldn't be here. >> But unfortunately, I am here.
00:35:39
>> Once again, Ted says he was framed. He would never instruct someone to hold a
00:35:44
gun to a dog's head, he says. And he claimed that he only gave Greg Markham the $2500
00:35:51
to help rescue Markham's dog, not to murder Kim. >> You don't pay somebody $2500 to kill
00:35:59
anybody? That is absolutely ridiculous. >> But how then did Markham seem to know so
00:36:05
much about the layout of Kim Lark's house? >> But this was the basic layout. >> Markham made us a diagram, too. I knew
00:36:15
where the keys were >> and we compared it to the house itself. It wasn't exactly a match, [music] but
00:36:22
there were disturbing similarities. It shows where the power sources, >> right? >> And where the safe was. Is that right?
00:36:30
>> Yes. >> He did a drawing of her house. How would he have those details if you didn't give
00:36:36
it to him? >> That drawing was not all at all. They're 100% factual. Then you had like a dining
00:36:43
room. >> Ted echoed what his lawyer argued in the trial. Whatever Markham knew about the
00:36:49
home's layout came from innocent conversations. [music] >> I explained how I had re done electrical
00:36:57
panels. And I talked about how I had a bookcase to put a safe at a high level so she would have to bend down.
00:37:04
>> In fact, [music] he told us he was a doting husband devoted to making life easier for Kim. You said you loved Kim
00:37:13
Lark. >> I still love her. >> He admitted he forged her [music] signature on a check, but said as the
00:37:21
marriage crumbled, he had no income and needed money. And he said he had [music]
00:37:26
a right to the dogs. Since his divorce settlement with Kim hadn't been finalized yet,
00:37:33
>> those dogs were still community property. Just like he once claimed in Monaco, he
00:37:40
told us he's an innocent and fundamentally good man taken advantage of by others.
00:37:50
As you sit here today, do you feel responsible for Edmund Saffra's death? >> No, I don't.
00:37:57
>> But the couple who once believed Ted Maher's proclamations of innocence, >> I'm not RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATH of two
00:38:05
people. Now wonder what really happened on the December night in Monte Carlo that ended
00:38:13
with [music] the death of a billionaire and his nurse. >> There is a chance in my mind now that
00:38:20
[music] he did orchestrate that. >> Bill Hayes still believes Ted told the truth about intruders attacking him that
00:38:28
night. But Hayes and Thomas agree that when it comes to Ted's plot to kill Kim Lark, the plot they say he sucked them
00:38:36
into, he is guilty [music] as charged. >> I feel betrayed. >> I would want to know why why you lied.
00:38:47
And while we may never know the whole truth for sure, we found evidence that Ted had hedged one of his most basic
00:38:55
claims which he repeatedly made over the years. Were you in fact special forces and a green beret?
00:39:03
>> I went through all three phases. >> You're saying you went through the training?
00:39:07
>> I finished the three program. >> Come on, Ted. Don't double talk here. >> I never was assigned to a unit as a
00:39:13
Green Beret. So, you never served as a Green Beret? >> I served I I went down into special
00:39:20
forces. Yes, I did. >> If Ted Maher didn't give us a straight answer, the army certainly did, [music]
00:39:27
telling us, quote, there is no evidence that Theodore Maher served in the special forces.
00:39:35
>> He's a [music] thief. He's a liar, a con artist. And Kim Lark says she's worried
00:39:41
she hasn't seen the last of him. >> When he gets out, I'll be in trouble. >> Does Kim Lark have a reason to be scared
00:39:49
of you? >> Yeah, absolutely not. >> There's no telling what he may do. >> Detective Garrett [music] Silva, who
00:39:57
helped piece the murder solicitation case together, was promoted to sergeant with the K9 unit. He told us that if he
00:40:05
were in Kim's position, he would keep a dog by his side for protection. And that's exactly what Kim Lark is doing.
00:40:15
>> I don't trust anybody. I'm always on alert. >> She told us Ted has demanded money as
00:40:21
part of their divorce, and she's infuriated. [music] Kim admits that anger can be lonely.
00:40:28
>> Come on, Pbell. But anyone who knows Kim [music] knows >> Yeah. We're just going for a ride.
00:40:35
>> She's never really alone. >> Kim, do they follow you everywhere? >> Yes. >> Oh my god, [music] that makes me laugh.
00:40:44
>> Dogs just want to be with you all the time. >> And you [music] can trust them.
00:40:50
>> Yes. Yes. >> Okay. Welcome back to another episode of 48 hours postmortem. I'm your host, Ann
00:41:52
Marie Green, and today we are talking about the man with two names. The first name, John Green. Uh he is serving time
00:42:02
for soliciting the murder of his wife in New Mexico. He was also convicted uh for
00:42:07
forging checks and larseny. But more than 20 years earlier, this same man, then known as Ted Maher, was at the
00:42:15
center of an international mystery involving a billionaire in Monaco. So joining me now to unpack this
00:42:22
intercontinental criminal decadesl long saga are 48 hours correspondent Aaron Morardi and producer Josh Jagger. Thanks
00:42:30
for joining us Aaron and Josh. >> Hi Anie. It's a pleasure to be here. >> It's great being here because I think
00:42:35
Josh would agree with me this is one of the more unusual defendants we've ever run into. Wouldn't you say?
00:42:41
>> I would say so. We've both been doing this job a long time and it's hard to hard to get to know him, hard to know
00:42:47
what to believe and it's been an adventure covering him. So, speaking of that, um, you all have actually been
00:42:52
covering Ted Mahar John Green since 2002. >> Well, not exactly. I mean, we really
00:42:59
thought back then when that story ended when he was convicted that we had seen the last of him. So, I mean, I think
00:43:07
Josh and I were both surprised that he would come back into our radar screen with a whole other crime.
00:43:15
>> Okay, so there is obviously a lot to talk about. Before we get going, of course, a reminder for everyone. If you
00:43:20
haven't watched or listened to this episode, it's called The Man with Two Names. Go check it out and then come on
00:43:26
back for our conversation here at Postmortem. So, first we're going to take you back to the late 1900s, uh,
00:43:32
more specifically December 3rd, 1999. In the early morning hours, emergency responders arrived at the Monte Carlo
00:43:40
penthouse of billionaire Edmund Saffra. There had been a fire and both Saffra along with his nurse, her name is Vivian
00:43:48
Torrene, they've died from smoke poisoning. Well, soon after an American, then known as Ted Maher, was arrested.
00:43:57
Josh Maher is working as a nurse. Um, but how does this American nurse find himself involved in the life of an
00:44:06
international financeier, one of the wealthiest men in the world? It's just an amazing story and an incredibly lucky
00:44:14
turn of events in his life. Um, at least it seemed so at the time. He'd been working as a nurse in a hospital in New
00:44:21
York City and he was in the the neonatal unit. According to his wife at the time,
00:44:26
he had taken care of twins at the hospital. But when the babies were allowed to go home, the parents
00:44:32
mistakenly left behind a camera which turns out to have had the very first pictures of the babies on it. And he
00:44:40
contacts them. Well, it turns out these parents, this couple is a very wealthy couple who live in New York who happen
00:44:50
to be friends of Edmund Saffra and his wife Lily. and they're so grateful to Ted for returning their camera. And they
00:45:00
say to Ted, "We have someone we'd like to introduce you to, a friend of ours happens to need
00:45:07
a nurse." And the rest is history. >> His wife at the time, she said that she felt that part of Saffra's attraction to
00:45:14
someone like Maher was that he was also purportedly a green beret. Right, Aaron?
00:45:19
>> Yes. Amarie, remember Saffra had Parkinson, so he was sick. He wanted great care, but also Saffer surrounded
00:45:28
himself with security because he believed he had enemies who might come after him. So the fact that Ted Maher
00:45:35
told people that he was a Green Beret, this appeared to be a perfect fit. A nurse who also had a military
00:45:41
background. So Ted took the job, moving around with the Saffas, sometimes going back home to New York and eventually
00:45:48
ending up in Monaco with the Saffas. But then there is this fire and there are all sorts of versions about how the
00:45:57
events unfold. Aarin, what do we know? We know for one thing that Saffra and his nurse died from smoke poisoning as
00:46:06
you had talked about and the two had locked themselves into a secure room when Ted Maher alerted them that there
00:46:14
were intruders in the apartment. Maher was in fact found wounded at that time. He claimed he was stabbed by two
00:46:22
intruders. He also said that the reason why he lit a small fire in a trash basket was because he thought that would
00:46:29
set off the fire alarm and get help, thinking that the fire department, especially in Monaco, that small
00:46:35
country, they would respond quickly. What did seem odd to observers at the time, this became a big deal afterwards,
00:46:43
is that most of Saffra security wasn't there that night. So that seemed to be very strange.
00:46:50
Maher's wife at the time told us that her husband was initially seen as a hero, but then later he was charged with
00:46:58
arson and in part because Maher signed a confession saying there were no intruders. He said he stabbed himself
00:47:08
then set that small fire. His lawyer though maintained that uh Ted never intended to kill anyone. He just wanted
00:47:16
to look like a hero uh by saving his boss. And his attorney also said that no one would have died if the responders
00:47:25
had gotten to the victims faster. But authorities blamed Ted because they said they did get to the scene in minutes,
00:47:34
but they had to be careful and they slowed their response because Ted had told them that there were violent
00:47:40
intruders inside at the scene. So, he is arrested and Josh uh you were in Monaco
00:47:48
in uh 2002 and you are able to briefly film him in prison. You throw him a few questions, but I need to hear that story
00:47:57
about how you even managed to do that. >> Well, as a producer, you encounter lots
00:48:02
of obstacles in the field, and your job is to get around them, over them, under them. In this case, we got got over one.
00:48:09
Above >> above one. Exactly. Um, Monaco did not make Ted Maher available to the press
00:48:15
for interviews and we were afraid we weren't going to get to talk to him. But over the course of the trial, I noticed
00:48:21
that when the court wasn't in session, he would come out into the prison yard, which was a sort of an asphalt surface
00:48:29
with a cage around it at roughly the same time every day. And there was one building right up next to the prison
00:48:36
yard, which happened to be something like 10 stories tall. Um, and so I took the crew and we somehow managed to talk
00:48:45
our way through the lobby of this building and got get permission to go up on the roof with our camera and our
00:48:52
tripod. And right on schedule that day, he came out and he was by himself in the
00:48:56
prison yard. We started filming immediately. I leaned over the wall and started yelling questions at him and I
00:49:02
said, "Did you do it?" He heard me and started answering. >> Oh my gosh. I I assume he said he didn't
00:49:08
do it. He said he was as I recall innocent as charged and I'm not responsible for the death of
00:49:16
two people. That's my recollection of what he said. >> That is fascinating. See that's the kind
00:49:20
of uh work that that goes into getting these sort of amazing interviews and this is next level. Um so in the end Ted
00:49:30
Maher was found guilty of arson uh leading to the death of two people. He was then sentenced to 10 years in
00:49:36
prison. But then weeks later he escapes and we actually learned how he escaped from this prison because years later he
00:49:46
wrote a book about it. Aaron, yes that was the book framed in Monte Carlo. According to that um he had cut the bars
00:49:54
of his cell. I mean this story is just so crazy. Then he used a rope made of trash bags and scaled the wall. Um, he
00:50:04
claimed that he had had hacksaw blades smuggled in, hid them in the lining of his fridge, hid the trash bags in the
00:50:13
prison library. I mean, doesn't sound like there was great security there, right? And then he had to saw through
00:50:19
multiple layers of bars. Uh, again, according to the story he tells, um, it took five and a half weeks to cut his
00:50:28
way out. There should have been a movie made about this. really so crazy. >> You think you've seen everything in this
00:50:34
job a and I've seen a lot since then, but this still ranks up there among the most bizarre things that have ever
00:50:41
happened. This is about a month or two after he's convicted. And it just so happened that Erin and I were back in
00:50:48
Monte Carlo sort of tying up loose ends on the story. And I'm in my hotel room fast asleep. It must be 2:30 or 3 in the
00:50:56
morning when my phone rings. I sit up in bed and I answer the phone and it is Ted Maher's wife. She said,
00:51:04
"My husband escaped. He just called me from outside of the prison telling me he was out and asking for my help."
00:51:13
>> Oh my gosh. >> I grabbed my mini DV camera and ran up to the prison. Wasn't very far away from
00:51:20
the hotel. And I look up and I see a window on the side of the prison that's been pried open. So, I film the open
00:51:30
window and I head back to my hotel room, lie down in bed, and there's a knock on
00:51:34
the door and I am suddenly surrounded by police. I I speak enough French to know that
00:51:41
that they wanted me to come down to the station. >> Wow. >> It's by now probably 4 in the morning. I
00:51:47
remember the the detective sitting there had a sort of cigarette with a long ash
00:51:51
dangling off the end and there was smoke curling up towards the ceiling. It was very, it's sort of something out of film
00:51:58
noir. And I was sitting there and >> absolutely >> I said, "What's going on?" And I I think
00:52:04
I got the feeling that what they were worried about was why did the American inmate escape on the same night that the
00:52:11
American TV producer was up lurking around the prison in the middle of the night.
00:52:15
>> Finally, we cleared everything up and I got home and I saw Erin in the lobby,
00:52:20
filled her in. And I remember the look on her face and that was just yet another weird little chapter in this.
00:52:26
>> I would have loved to seen Aaron's face when you were like, "Guess what I've been up to over the last six hours.
00:52:33
[laughter] >> Guess what Ted has been up to." >> Yeah, indeed. >> Freedom was not long for him. Uh the
00:52:39
next day, uh he was back in custody and that is where sort of the the story sort
00:52:44
of ends. You think for you two, right? Decades pass. Um, but then Josh, you just happened to be digging around
00:52:52
recently. >> So, I'm sitting there in my office probably 2 and a half months ago, 3
00:52:58
months ago, and it just popped into my head. I wonder what some of the truly outlandish people you have covered in
00:53:07
the in your 30 years at CBS, what some of them are doing now. And the name that went immediately to the top of
00:53:14
the list was Ted Maher. So, I literally Googled him. I put his name into Google and the first thing that popped up was
00:53:22
about a documentary made primarily on the Monaco case that happened to be dropping that night. But then I look
00:53:31
below that on on the Google search and I learn that Ted Maher got out of prison in Monaco, came back
00:53:41
to the United States, changed his name to John Green, and just last spring, the spring of
00:53:51
2025, was convicted for soliciting the first degree murder of his wife in New Mexico.
00:54:00
And my next move was immediately to call Aaron and say [laughter] and say, "Remember Ted Maher?"
00:54:08
>> So now Maher is charged with a new crime. You would think that he would come back to the United States. He would
00:54:16
go back to nursing or something like that, but he would lead a straight and narrow life. [music] But now this put a
00:54:23
whole new wrinkle to the story. Who was this guy? Welcome back. So, you were able to
00:54:34
interview some key figures in the life of John Green, as he's known now. Uh, chief among them his now ex-wife, uh,
00:54:41
Kim Lark. She's a retired physician in Carlsbad, New Mexico, and also the trainer and owner of Search and Rescue
00:54:49
Dogs. Uh, she met Green when he came into her office for a biopsy. She said they really hit it off. and Kim marries
00:54:56
him in 2020. Did she know about his past and did any of that give her pause? >> That was one of my first questions,
00:55:04
Amarie, because you know, she's a very smart woman. She's a doctor. But she said that very early in their
00:55:12
relationship, John, cuz he went by the name John Green by then, he told her his real name, Ted Maher, and then he gave
00:55:19
her the book Framed Monte Carlo. And and of course that book is all his side of the story. And she said to me that she
00:55:28
believed him. Um and she thought that it in fact he may have been unfairly blamed
00:55:33
for the deaths. But I think she really wanted to believe him too. >> Right. Kim Lark said, I'm paraphrasing
00:55:40
her, whatever I wanted my best friend to be, he was. And he had a way of just being who you needed him to be. And that
00:55:48
resonated with me as something he perhaps has always known. how to do. >> He's a chameleon.
00:55:54
>> That's what I think he is. He's a chameleon. >> I mean, the guy looks good on paper,
00:55:58
right? Nurse, former Green Beret, and he loves dogs. But even with all of that, uh Kim is starting to have suspicions
00:56:07
about this new man in her life. And I want to play an unaired clip of your interview with Kim.
00:56:13
>> Did you over time start thinking he would tell stories that put him in a good light?
00:56:19
>> Always. He liked to still tell stories and brag about things that he had done. And just
00:56:28
little by little, I realized that a lot of them were stories. >> Like what? What do you remember? Like
00:56:36
any kind of story or anything that seemed to be a red flag. >> We we took a concealed weapons permit.
00:56:47
Now, supposedly Ted is a Green Beret, and I'm no Annie Oakley, but I really outshot him with my right and my left
00:56:58
hand. >> What did you think? >> I thought, "Oh, dear God, he's lying about that."
00:57:04
>> When Kim told us that, we started doing research and the army told us there was
00:57:09
no evidence that had served in the special forces. So when I got a chance to talk to him, I asked him directly
00:57:17
about that, this is a man who could talk a lot and never give you a straight answer. So I kept asking him, were you a
00:57:25
member of the special forces at a Green Bray? And he would say something like, "Well, I was never assigned to a unit at
00:57:32
the Green Bray." So I then go, "So you never served as a Green Bray?" He goes, "Yeah, yeah, I did." I was so confused.
00:57:42
Um, but I'm going with the army on this one. >> Yeah. I mean, one of the things we see a
00:57:46
lot is in this job is is people who know how to talk a lot while while saying almost nothing.
00:57:54
>> Very little. Yes. >> So true. Well, I'm sure when you're living with him, then this stuff pops
00:57:59
up, you know, more and more. And no surprise, um, his marriage goes south. Uh, really south. Uh, Green is charged
00:58:07
for forging checks. He also receives several other charges that were later dropped. Kim then initiates divorce. But
00:58:15
about a month after Green received those initial charges, Kim said he drove away
00:58:20
with her dogs in the car. Why would he take them? >> Okay, so the first thing I think you
00:58:25
have to bear in mind about Kim Lark is she doesn't just love these dogs. Lots of people love their dogs. These dogs
00:58:33
are the most important thing in Kim Lark's life, but they are also very valuable, very highly trained as search
00:58:42
and rescue, disaster response, cadaavver dogs. In fact, one of them is a descendant of a dog that Kim took to the
00:58:51
Pentagon soon after 9/11 um and and helped look through the rubble of the Pentagon and respond to that disaster.
00:58:59
And um one of the dogs whose name was Zero was even pregnant when Ted took them. So these dogs are everything to
00:59:08
Kim. >> She was very scared that he might sell the dogs. I don't think she worried
00:59:14
about him hurting the dogs because he cared about dogs as well, but she was scared she'd never see the dogs again.
00:59:21
Uh Green is arrested and then he ends up in this detention center, but then of course things get even worse. Uh there's
00:59:29
another person that is introduced into the story, Green's jailmate. His name's uh Greg Markham. What did he say
00:59:38
happened? >> So this is another unusual character. Greg Markham is a guy who was detained
00:59:44
on drug charges when John Green got to the Eddie Count County Detention Center. So they were in jail together. And
00:59:54
Markhamm said they struck up a sort of a casual friendship and started playing chess every day until one day Markham
01:00:02
told us that John Green asked him, "Do you know anyone who could and would kill my wife?"
01:00:11
Referring to Khim Lark. So what happens according to Greg Markham is he said to John Green, "If
01:00:18
you help me get money for bail to bond out of jail, I'll do it." He said that he never really planned to kill Kim
01:00:27
Lark, but he wanted this bail money. >> So Markham says that sort of this is the
01:00:34
plan. Green describes a layout of Kim's home. There's a diagram that's drawn out
01:00:39
and the idea was to make her drink water laced with fentinyl, which seems like a
01:00:46
plan that's got, you know, a few holes in it. >> More than a few holes. >> I mean, what if she doesn't drink the
01:00:53
water? >> Markham, as Josh said, is quite the character. He says that Green told him
01:00:59
that the way to force her to take ventil, okay, is by pointing a gun, not at Kim, but at her dogs. And that she
01:01:09
cared about her dogs so much she would do whatever she was ordered. And then the whole idea was once the deed was
01:01:15
done, there was this like uh code phrase and it was supposed to be I walk the dogs. I mean, as you point out, Emory,
01:01:23
it was a ridiculous plan. When I asked Kim about the plot, and remember she's she's a tough chick. She said she would
01:01:30
have refused to drink anything and she would have fought like hell for her dogs if she had to. And of course, then when
01:01:37
we talked to John Green, he denied all of this. A >> and the thing about Markham is that he's
01:01:43
certainly no boy scout at all. >> Well, Markham called himself a con man, not a hitman. One thing that he was
01:01:52
unequivocal about though was that I may be a lot of things, but I'm not an assassin and I would I would never kill
01:01:59
anyone. >> So then how was the plot ultimately uncovered? >> So you have Green and Markham in in jail
01:02:05
and there's a another inmate who apparently overhears Green and Markham talking about this plot. That inmate
01:02:15
takes it upon himself to write Kim Lark a letter. And in the letter, the inmate is saying to Kim, "Your husband is
01:02:24
someone who's in jail with me, and I have the feeling he's planning to do something to you.
01:02:30
>> If you want to know more details, um, I'm willing to tell you and also even get up in court and testify to
01:02:37
this." >> Wow. >> And do the right thing if you pay me. >> Um, [laughter] >> oh my gosh. So, so what happens is uh he
01:02:43
sends that letter to Kim and she immediately gives it to authorities who track down the author of the letter and
01:02:51
interview him. He leads them to Greg Markham who corroborates the story and alleged plot.
01:02:59
>> So then Green goes on trial in March of 2025. He's charged with criminal solicitation uh to commit firstdegree
01:03:06
murder. Markham testifies against him. Green's found guilty. He's sentenced to nine years in prison, but with time
01:03:15
served, he could actually get out in less than three years. Erin, you managed to talk to Green. You get an interview
01:03:22
with him. His attorney sets up a video conference and you can ask him some questions. I imagine you must have
01:03:28
mapped out your questions and you were ready to hit him. >> Well, and remember I He's with me, but
01:03:34
he's on video. It's almost like a Zoom interview. It really is. And so it was frustrating um because while we could
01:03:42
see him on screen it's not quite the same um in many ways even though you know he had aged definitely over the
01:03:48
years he was the same guy after all these years denied any kind of uh crimes just as he always had. Um and as we've
01:03:58
been saying throughout this he has a way of saying a lot without answering your questions at all. was very very
01:04:06
>> it's always so frustrating talking to people like that especially when you know your time is limited. Um we saw
01:04:12
some of the interview in the hour. Let's place some more of your conversation. >> I have followed your life for the last
01:04:20
25 years. I mean when you read your book it's you seem to blame everything on somebody else.
01:04:27
>> Was I not framed in Monaco? I'm I'm just saying what I'm saying is that when I
01:04:33
look at your life over everything in Monaco and then here, you're you're always blaming somebody else. It's Kim
01:04:41
and not you. Do you take responsibility for any of this? >> Oh, I took the responsibility for what I
01:04:47
did when I took the dogs, but what I did was in most ter in most uh most actions
01:04:54
was community property. I didn't take a gun to anybody's head. I didn't do anything that was going to harm anybody.
01:05:01
>> Ted, somebody listening to right now is listening to what sounds like a very angry man. I mean, did you want Kim Lark
01:05:09
dead? >> No, absolutely not. >> I mean, you sound very angry. You sure you didn't like bring this up with Greg
01:05:18
Markham? >> No, absolutely not. Like I said, you don't pay somebody $2,500 to kill
01:05:25
somebody. >> That's a convenient thing for him to say. you don't pay $2,500 to kill
01:05:29
somebody because Greg Markham said the $2,500 payment was only the initial installment of what he allegedly was
01:05:37
promising to Markham. >> And I just want to remind you, Emory, even though he says he never wanted to
01:05:43
see his wife dead, the judge at sentencing who had listened to all the evidence said that he was worried about
01:05:52
Kim's safety. Green had appealed. his conviction was denied, but he was going to get out at some point. As for Kim,
01:06:00
she told us that even now, even though Green is still behind bars as we speak, she still keeps a shotgun within easy
01:06:08
reach. >> And she also keeps those dogs around, too. She has the dogs still. >> Yeah. And you know what what's so great
01:06:16
is that Felony and Storm are back with her. Zero has a new home. And I I just want to remind people that because Zero
01:06:25
was pregnant, she had puppies. So, there were a lot of dogs and there were people
01:06:31
who benefited from Zero and her puppies. >> That's fantastic. Well, I don't know.
01:06:37
This is a hell of an odyssey, but thank you so much for joining us for this podcast.
01:06:43
>> Pleasure. >> It was fun talking about this. >> Um, and thank you all for watching or
01:06:48
listening to Postmortem. And if you like this episode, please rate and review on
01:06:52
Apple Podcast or Spotify.