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[Music] Welcome back to Postmortem. I'm your host, 48 Hours correspondent Ann Marie
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Green. And joining me today to discuss the season premiere episode of 48 Hours is 48 hours correspondent Aaron Morardi.
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Erin, how many seasons has it been for you now? >> Okay, I was trying to count and I think
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it's 35, which means isn't this your first full season? So, you have a little bit to catch up with me.
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>> All right. I'm working on it. I'm working on it. I still with all those seasons under your belt. This is quite
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an episode. I don't know if you've done anything like this one before. It's the perplexing case of Ben Elliot. He
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murdered his twin sister Megan in 2021. They were both just 17 years old at the time. Now, Ben maintains his innocence.
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He admits that he stabbed his sister, but he says he was sleepwalking and he did not intend to harm her. So, this is
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one of those episodes, Aaron, that throughout the hour, my mind kept on changing about whether or not, you know,
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I felt it was intentional. I felt that, you know, whether or not he was guilty. I just I couldn't really decide. You
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know, Amarie, I'm with you. I was conflicted as well when I first started on the story. I thought, well, that's a
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novel defense. Um, you know, but I thought of it as a defense, but I have really gone 180. The problem here is our
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judicial, our criminal judicial system that is based on adversarial uh sides. Uh, the courts want to find guilt or
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innocence, guilt or not guilty. Um, in this case, we know he did it. He, you know, Ben Elliott admits he stabbed his
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sister, but we don't know why or if he intended to. And the other problem with this case, which you and I will talk
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about, is this is a young man who never shows a lot of emotion. >> Absolutely. We will get into his
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demeanor, but before we even sort of get into the case, we'll just remind people
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that if you haven't actually listened to this episode of 48 hours, you can do so.
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You can find the full audio version just below this episode that you're listening
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to in your podcast feed. Go take a listen and then come on back for this conversation. Okay. You actually have a
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pretty unique perspective here. Um, you are a twin, which I'm just learning. >> I am a twin. I have a twin sister. We
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are not identical, but we are very close. And so this case hit me hard. It was hard not to look at this case as a
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twin. I can't in a million years imagine hurting my twin. It's the person I knew
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before anybody. Um, and in this case, there didn't seem to be any problem between these two people. So, how do you
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make sense of that? Yes, the prosecution argues that Ben intentionally killed his
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sister and that he wasn't sleepwalking, that this was just sort of an excuse, something that he made up. but they
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never really established a motive. And me as the viewer/jur watching this, that bothered me. What was so troubling about
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this case is that not only was there no evidence of a motive or a problem between these twins, everyone uh that
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the prosecution talked to said that that Ben loved his sister and and loved being
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her protector. she was she had been diagnosed um as autistic and he according to the witnesses wanted to
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protect her. But here's something else to think about. They couldn't find any evidence um on either one of the twins
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phones. You would think if there was a problem between the two there'd be some kind of text uh trail. Uh another thing,
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this is a young man who used his phone all the time. if he was just going to use sleepwalking as a defense, an
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excuse, wouldn't you think he'd do some research? They didn't find any. Uh, so I found
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this all so troubling because again, the prosecutors say he's a danger to society. That's why they charged him
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with firstdegree um and and fought to get him convicted of firstdegree murder. And yet there's
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no evidence other than the act itself, which is pretty awful. Uh that that he really intended to do this.
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>> Mhm. I I think that though that that would have helped me as I was watching the hour if they could give me a re the
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why even though they don't really have to. Um but the other thing that I kept on thinking about as as I was watching
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the hour is just how much do you know about sleepwalking? I think immediately what comes to mind is sort of this
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visual of this person walking with their eyes closed and their arms out sort of zombie like not you know somebody doing
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sort of complicated tasks but I have to say I have heard some crazy things about
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people you know could be an urban myth but I mean cooking a turkey while sleep walking and that all that sort of stuff.
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>> Well you know it's not crazy for someone to to actually cook while they're sleeping. I learned that. Um so just so
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that people understand what it is there's a large category uh called parasomnio and sleepwalking is one of
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those um so is sleep eating or if you want to say sleep cooking um and it really happens and it's more common than
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I realize it is. Uh but crimes committed uh while you're sleepwalking is less common although it does happen. Here's
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the real problem Amarie and it was a problem reporting on this. There are no usually no witnesses to somebody
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sleepwalking and so they sometimes have to kind of guess about what happens during those episodes. So we have
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experts because they were used in the trial uh both on the defense side and on the prosecution side and both sides
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agree that parasomnia sleepwalking does occur. They also agree when it occurs it
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it occurs during a period of your sleep which is nonrem slowwave sleep. Um and it's when you're almost like in a
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twilight zone between sleep and being awake. But then the experts disagree. And here's the problem. You have the
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defense witness saying that there are pockets of memory and that's why Ben Elliot could remember stabbing, but the
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the states witness says there are no pockets of memory. The fact that he could remember stabbing his sister meant
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he was not sleepwalking. And you know what we're talking about here too is not just sort of like stumbling around your
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bedroom, right? We're talking about a very violent act. I I do the experts have any opinion on what might cause
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someone who's normally not violent to act out violently in their sleep? Dr. Pressman, the prosecution sleep expert,
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said that something has to happen to the sleepwalker. somebody has to interfere with their movement. Uh but again,
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because in most of these cases, there are no cameras, no witnesses, they don't know exactly. We don't know what
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happened in that bedroom. Did Megan wake up? Did she put a hand up to try to stop
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him? We don't know. Dr. depressment. Um he said something along the lines of, you know, he knew that he wasn't
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sleepwalking because he came out of it quickly. And I just sort of thought, how did he know how quickly he came out of
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it? Because there were only two people in that room and it certainly wasn't the expert.
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>> Exactly. He's claiming that the fact that Ben said, "I remember stabbing her," meant that he had come out quickly
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to have that kind of memory. Uh Dr. Presman says he shouldn't have any memory of it. The prosecution actually
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used uh the fact that Ben had some memory against him by saying that Ben had actually killed his sister earlier
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and had time to come up with uh a story. Uh and then calling 911. >> Again, as you point out, Emory, there
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were no cameras. There were no witnesses. We don't know and the experts don't know. Mhm. So, here's kind of like
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my journey uh with Ben, right? Initially, I just thought, you know, his presentation is a little odd. And it
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starts with that 911 call. At this point, you've listened probably to hundreds of 911 calls. You know,
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sometimes people are frantic and yelling. Sometimes they are very measured and controlled. They want to
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get the information out. Ben had this soft whispery voice. It just was a little odd.
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>> Well, and it was odd to the prosecutors. That was part of the trial. The in fact,
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the prosecutor imitated the phone call in front of the jurors and was whispering. And that's fair to an extent
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because certainly when you listen, as you did, Amory, it does sound like he's whispering and he may have been. But I
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also want to point out that when I met Van Elliott in the jail and interviewed him, he is very soft-spoken and he
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doesn't show a lot of emotion. And what he said to me was uh that he wasn't whispering. That that's how he talks.
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>> But then why didn't he scream out to his parents? That was the other thing that
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kind of bothered me. I thought like why is it that the parents are finding out what's happening, you know, when the
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like cops are showing up? Like why wouldn't he say, "Oh my god, help me." >> Well, you know what, Emry, that is such
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a good question and it's certainly what the prosecution pointed out. Like why did he call 911? Why did he keep his
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voice down? He didn't want his parents to know. And that's possible. But can I just point out here's where my
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experience as a twin comes in. Uh so when you are a twin, whether you're identical or not, you have a real
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closeness. That is who you share everything with. And I just want to throw out that possibility that as a
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twin, he was calling 911 because he was thinking of his sister and then didn't think about calling his parents until
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the 911 operator asked him to. It's a possibility. As a twin, I see that as a possibility. I think the other thing
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that really surprised me about this episode is just how many people are familiar with sleepwalking because I
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kind of went through it's nowhere close to sleepwalking but my husband talks in his sleep and when we first met it would
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be sort of this mumbly stuff that I couldn't understand but it's definitely progressed over time but I mean one of
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the prosecutors was a sleepwalker her children jurors knew sleepwalkers I I was like how many people are
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sleepwalking and then I also thought could that have an impact on, you know, whether the not they thought he was
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guilty or innocent because I don't I don't know. Do you know if their familiarity with sleepwalking had an
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impact on how they decided this case? >> I think Emory, it was a double-edged sword. In one hand, it helped the
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defense because because you had jurors who knew that sleepwalking exists and they heard during the trial that Ben
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seemed to have a a history of sleepwalking. The other side of that uh sword is though that committing a crime
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while sleepwalking is very rare. Uh none of the people who were familiar with sleepwalking knew someone who committed
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a crime. And I think that's hard for someone to believe that even jurors who knew that people sleepwalk to believe
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that someone could actually commit a terrible crime like this. Uh they also heard testimony for do from Dr. Presman
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who says that >> during sleepwalking you can't have conscious thought um and made a big deal
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that in order for Ben to have stabbed his sister he had to pull his knife out of the sheath and Dr. Presman testified
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that that was too much of a conscious thought. Uh and yet you and I know um that there have been cases where
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somebody has driven uh and then committed a crime while sleepwalking and the jury acquitted that
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person of murder. >> Welcome back. Uh let's dive into the really chilling body cam footage. When
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first responders arrive on the scene, Ben is giving Megan CPR compressions. His parents, uh, Michael and Kathy, they
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are there. They are distraught. They are confused. They ask police what has happened to their daughter, Megan. Well,
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Emory, at first glance, when you see that body cam footage and you see these parents asking and the police are
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saying, "We're not going to tell you." It seems cruel at first glance, but you have to realize that they're walking
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into that house not knowing what happened, who exactly was involved. They just know someone inside that house was
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involved. Maybe they all were. And so until they could really understand what happened, I they did not want to share
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any information. They didn't want anyone in the house sharing stories, getting a
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story together until they could figure out exactly what did happen. It really makes more sense when you look at it
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from the vantage point of these investigators walking in cold. It It does make sense, I imagine, for
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Michael and Kathy though, as this whole thing sort of continues to unfold, they then decide that they're going to
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call a family friend who happens to be an attorney. Now prosecutors use that decision a little bit against them,
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frame it like it's a very suspicious thing to do. Well, and we see this over and over
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again in these cases, Amarie. So the family wants to know what to do most of the time. They've never been involved in
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a situation like this. So they had a friend who was a lawyer and and in fact that lawyer helped them find out what
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happened to Megan. That's how they found out that their daughter had died. But then at trial it was used against uh the
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family by the prosecution. And we see that happening over and over again in cases. Um the prosecutors said that the
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family um had conducted a cover up from the and I'm quoting the get-go, you know, from the very beginning because
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from the prosecution's viewpoint, if you have nothing to hide, why are you calling a friend who's a lawyer? So
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Ben's family, you the his parents, they're already going through this heartbreaking experience. But now part
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of the prosecution's narrative is and they're involved in a cover up. Their head must have been spinning. Well, can
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I just tell you this was one of the most emotional interviews I've done with parents as you can imagine. They have
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lost a daughter. They are they feared they'll lose their son. They for the first time I found out that they thought
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maybe he had schizophrenia. They really seemed and they said to me that they really wanted to know what happened. So
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they were very upset with the idea that anyone would accuse them of a cover up. And they point out that Ben was willing
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to talk to the state's expert, sleep expert, but that the state sleeps expert did not want to talk to Ben. uh that
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expert felt he had enough information by looking at the reports and and every evidence in the case and did not need to
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talk to Ben was what what he said to me. So the family was devastated with the claim that they were trying to cover up
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because that's not how they saw it. The jurors really got to see Ben Elliot's police interrogation.
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I'm curious as to, you know, what they felt about his demeanor and what you felt about his demeanor because you
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spoke to him. >> That's the hard part, Emory, in these cases. Um, we are judging people by how
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they act under the worst moments of their lives, but we've never met those people before. So, it's a very tough
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part of any criminal trial to try to figure out how do you judge the demeanor of somebody. The Ben that I saw on
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police cam footage was very similar to the Ben I met uh when I saw him in the jail. uh he was a little more animated
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with me because apparently his grandmother was and is a fan of mine. Um uh and so he did say to me kind of that
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his grandmother under different circumstances would be happy to know that that I was the one who interviewed
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him. So I saw more of a open talkative Ben. But through most of the interview, the Ben we saw in police cam footage was
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pretty much the same guy I interviewed and his parents told me the same thing that that is who he is. I did talk to
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him about um his affect and the fact that he was talking about things that seem so unrelated to what had just
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happened to his sister. You see him during the interview with the the detective talking about, you know, he's
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just been taken from his home after stabbing his sister and he's talking about taking his SAT. That struck me
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when I saw it and he said to me that he had just shut down. He didn't want to believe that he had done what he had
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done to his sister and he was trying not to think about it. So Erin, the other thing that really jumped out at at me
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that bothered me, tell you the truth, is that he calls his home, he calls it a crime scene. Did Did you get a chance to
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ask him why would you call it a crime scene? Well, I did. Um, and his answer was because it was a crime scene. I
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mean, we hear him in 911 saying he's dad killed his sister. So, um, he clearly thought it was a crime. Um he said he
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knew that they would cordon it off. I mean he kind of knew what the police would do. Um so he did not find the fact
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that he had used that term unusual. So you know that was just some of what the jury um had to consider. Um but there
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were other pieces of evidence that swayed them. What were kind of the big pieces of evidence for the jury?
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>> Well, you point out demeanor was a big one. the number of stab wounds because
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the prosecution did make a big deal about it and one of those wounds was very deep and the prosecution said that
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that goes to the idea that he intentionally stabbed her. >> The prosecution also talked to the
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jurors about the fact that according to the prosecution there should have been blood spatter. She was stabbed in the
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neck and the prosecution, and this is all just their theory. There was no proof of it, but the prosecution
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argued that the pillow that was near Megan had been used by Ben to keep her from yelling and that kept uh blood
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spatter from hitting the wall. But Ben had said he used the pillow, but he says he did it to try to stop the bleeding.
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>> Mhm. >> Near the end of it was during their closing, the prosecutors told the
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jurors, "Well, we have no motive, but you never know what goes on behind closed doors." And I think that really
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struck the jurors. So, the jurors initially were split uh seven to five, but then ultimately they all come around
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and it's a unanimous decision, right? that they find Ben Elliot guilty of firstdegree murder. I just thought like
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maybe a lesser charge would have been more appropriate like manslaughter or something like that instead of
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first-degree murder. >> Yeah. I should also point out so when you say seven to five, it was seven
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people initially were for guilty and five for not guilty. Um when you see that these are young people and a young
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defendant, you might think, well, do you really want to do first-degree murder? This is his twin. But what you have is a
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17-year-old teenager who's dead and you have two stab wounds. And I think the prosecutors, they believe he had the
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intent to kill her and that's first degree and that's why he was charged with that. Um, and I should also point
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out with the jurors that even though there were five initially who thought that Ben might not be guilty, they all
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came around to a unanimous decision of guilt and were satisfied with that decision at the end. Well, you say that
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um we know that prosecutors wanted a sentence of 40 years, but this might give us a little window into what the
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jury was grappling with because a member of the jury asked for leniency. It makes you wonder. Well, leniency
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according to the juror because he felt so bad for the parents. >> But I I do want to leave you with this
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idea of what Ben said to me which I thought was interesting. Ben believes that some of the jurors did have
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reasonable doubts. Um, and he points out that the judge could have sentenced him
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to 40 years, but instead chose to sentence him to a much shorter period of time. And he said to me, if people
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really thought that he had killed his sister in cold blood, wouldn't they want him locked up for the rest of his life?
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We'll remind people he got a prison sentence of 15 years. That makes him eligible for parole in 2032. He will
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still be a young man, uh, 28 years old if he if he does get parole at that time.
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>> And I do want to add, Emory, that um, Ben is appealing this verdict. >> How are his parents and her parents as
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well, how are they coping? I it occurred to me that they probably barely had a moment to sort of get over the shock of
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Megan's death and and even begin grieving for her before they had to pivot and think about Ben.
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>> I have not spoken to them recently, but I did speak with them this summer, and
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they are, as you can imagine, just devastated. When you speak with them, you can feel their pain. Um, and and
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they're a little bewildered to this to this day, wondering why there wasn't in their mind more of an attempt to find
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out what really happened in the early morning hours uh to Megan. They miss Megan. They worry about Ben. They have
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an older daughter. And I noticed through the interview, they just held hands through the whole thing. And so I said,
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>> "Oh my gosh, you guys, you're getting through this together. this and they said we couldn't have gotten through it
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without each other and that was very touching to me. >> Absolutely. Well, this is unlike one
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that I've seen so far on 48 hours. Uh I think you're going to take the viewers on kind of a bit of a roller coaster and
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I'm curious to see where everyone lands once they watch it. Thank you so much Aaron.
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>> Thanks so much Emory. I think we're going to have this in our hearts for a while too.
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>> Indeed. Before we leave, Aaron, you have another podcast. Can you tell us about
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it? >> It's called 15 inside the Daniel Marsh murders. Um, this is again one of those
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cases that it's really hard to shake. This was not only a thrill killer, but he was just 15 when he killed two people
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that he did not know, two strangers just to know what it felt like to kill someone. Uh, so it raises all kinds of
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of important questions about what do you do when you have a 15-year-old killer who then is diagnosed as a psychopath?
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Um, do you keep him in prison the rest of his life? What do you do? And the impact on the the victim's families.
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It's it's a a very moving and chilling podcast. So, you can find 15 on your favorite podcast app. If you like this
00:25:52
episode, please rate and review on Apple Podcast or on Spotify.