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Welcome to Postmortem. I'm [music] your host, Ann Marie Green, and today we're discussing the case of Molly Bish, a
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16-year-old lifeguard who disappeared from a local pond in Warren, Massachusetts on June 27th, 2000. Her
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remains were found 3 years later, but the big question still lingers today, which is who killed Molly Bish? Her
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sister Heather has taken to Tik Tok leading for leads. So joining me now to talk about this case is 48 Hours
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correspondent Aaron Morardi. Thanks for joining us again Erin. >> Oh well I love being here but a little
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warning. This is a tough story to talk about. An important story but it's tough.
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>> It is. And before we get into it, if you have not listened to this episode yet,
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head on over to your podcast feed. The full audio version of this episode of 48 Hours is here. It's in your podcast feed
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right beneath this one. Go listen and then come on over for this conversation. And yes, Aaron, this is a tough one
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because unlike a lot of the cases that we do for 48 hours, you know, there's isn't a resolution yet. We don't know
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who's responsible for her murder, 48 hours actually covered this case back in 2003. Why revisit it now? Well, one
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thing, 48 hours, we stick with stories for a long time till they are resolved. But most important is there's an
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unidentified killer and what happened to Molly, nobody wants to happen to any other child. And so, it is important to
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try to get answers in this case. Plus, there have been updates, important updates since we first aired this story.
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Um, number one, there's a person of interest. there had never been a person of interest named and there's also a new
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detective who was uh assigned the case who is going to give new eyes to the evidence
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>> and it's the 25th anniversary and I think most police officers will tell you and investigators will tell you that
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when you go back on a story when there's an anniversary there's always a chance that you'll get new tips and this story
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is worth pursuing Yeah. And you know, Erin, one of the things that we have noticed with some
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cases that have gone unsolved for even decades, you know, things change, people get older, they may decide to come
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forward. So, you never know uh who may remember something that they had buried that may help with this case once they
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hear about the hour. So, just to remind people, on the morning of June 27th, 2000, Molly's mom, Maggie, dropped her
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off at Cumins Pond after 9:50 a.m. where Molly was working as a lifeguard. Shortly after that, beachgoers arrived,
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but Molly was not there. Police were eventually called to the scene, but Maggie wasn't notified until Molly had
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been missing for 3 hours. First question, why did they wait so long to tell her family that she was
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missing? I think they didn't want to overly alarm her family. They thought, hey, maybe she just walked off with
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friends and took too long. Think back to 2000. Of course, this was 25 years ago.
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Warren is a small town. I think a lot of people kid themselves, but they think these things don't happen in a small
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town. Um, I think that sadly they didn't have a plan in place. I don't think it occurred to anyone this would happen. In
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fact, with hindsight, you look back, she actually had a police radio that she went to pick up and she's supposed to
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call in and check in. And I don't think anybody noticed that she didn't. or it's
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possible she never got a chance to because we do know that whatever happened to her happened to her within
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minutes, a very short period of time. I got to tell you, one of the things that sort of struck me being the mom of a
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semi newly minted teenager is that I was surprised she was working at the pond alone.
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>> I have to agree with you, Amory, that was concerning. Um, I was a lifeguard many years before that and I was never
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alone. Um, not because anyone feared I was going to get kidnapped, but because if I had to go in and I did have to do
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that once, go in for a child, someone else has to be there to call the alarm to, you know, help me bring the the
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child in if the child needs CPR, anything like that. So, it really surprised me that she would be alone
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there. M. So, here's the thing, though. Once they determine that she's missing, I mean, they really do spring into
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action. There's an extensive search that's launched. Hundreds of tips start flooding in after police release a
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sketch. It is a description that Maggie gives them of a man that she remembers seeing in the parking lot. Um, he has a
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white car with him and he's at Cummings Pond the day before Molly disappeared. What about this man really stuck out to
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Maggie? >> Well, according to Maggie, here's this man sitting in this white car. Um,
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usually families go there to go swimming and he's just sitting there smoking a cigarette with his left hand. Um,
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clearly it was a little bit of mother's instinct and just like concerned, why is
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he there? She tried to put it out of her head, but it it just kept bugging her. So that night she was concerned enough
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that she raised it with Molly and Molly just as 16-year-olds might do um said, "Oh, mom, he's probably a fisherman."
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And she just kind of dismissed it. But it clearly bugged Maggie. Um but then the next day when Maggie did drop Molly
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off, there was nobody sitting there. So I think it was after her daughter disappeared that she realized that
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really may have been important. So, after 3 years, there was a breakthrough in the case. Uh, police are notified
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that there's a blue bathing suit that was found about 5 miles from Cumins Pond. It resembles the one that Molly
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was wearing on the day she disappeared. You interviewed a local reporter Kathy Curran who described what that moment
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was like for Maggie and John Bish and it was you know obviously very emotional uh
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for them as parents that kind of realization that if you're finding the bathing suit and you're not finding her
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this is not a good sign. Um but what I was surprised about was how emotional Kathy was. They trusted Kathy. Um,
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that's the benefit of reporters staying on a story from the beginning and staying on it. They trusted her and they
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needed to have that information. And let's be honest, as we also know, police sometimes and investigators don't share
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everything with the family and the family wanted to know and they pushed Kathy to tell them and I think she
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struggled with it and that's why she's tearful. But um they wanted to know. >> Yeah. And and I think you know when
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you're a journalist um and you know that maybe you have an awareness of of news that will be heartbreaking to the
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family. It's really difficult to determine what the right thing to do is in that moment. But it certainly seems
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like, you know, Maggie and her husband were were appreciative to get that opportunity to uh know, you know, what
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police already knew. >> That is one of the most moving parts of the hour. When we realize that a mother
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is about to face reality, if you didn't have that bathing suit, you always had hope. And that bathing suit meant there
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was no more hope. Yeah. So, another really fascinating person that you spoke to uh during this hour was Dr. Anarie
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Meyers. She is a forensic anthropologist who works for the Boston Medical Examiner's Office. I had never heard of
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a forensic anthropologist before. I mean, how rare is it to come across one of those?
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>> Well, it's not as rare anymore. I mean, I've run into the forensic anthropologists on quite a number of
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stories very similar to this. What happens is, you know, investigators are determined not just to solve the case,
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but also, especially when someone's missing, to bring that person back to his or her family. But sometimes it's
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difficult I mean after in this case just 3 years um to determine whether first if
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bones are found whether they are animal or human and that's something a forensic
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anthropologist can do right away. I should also talk a little bit about the search which is really interesting to me
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and that was organized by the anthropologist. It's a grid search when they're looking
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for bones. And so you see these lines of police officers and investigators and volunteers who are going with rakes and
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walking looking for even tiny bones. So they they have to just really scour every part of that area. We're talking
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about 35 acres. So it did take days and weeks to do that. And one other thing I thought was so interesting that we
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learned from Dr. Myers is that when someone disappears, she tells investigators if you're in a urban area, that person
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could be found within a mile and a half radius. In a rural area, it's going to be maybe up to 5 miles. And guess what?
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In this case, Molly was found about 5 miles away from Cumins Pond. >> She was spot on. but also she was able
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to tell us that this young woman Molly was left there but wasn't buried there. And you're about to hear something that
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we didn't even air in our hour. Why that matters. We could tell that she was placed there because the the the fluids
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from decomposition are so costic. Okay. Um that they burn the foliage. It literally doesn't allow the foliage to
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grow for a while. >> So you can actually see an imprint of her body. >> You could see an imprint
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>> even three years later. >> Even three years later because the foliage had not recovered from that
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where she was was >> they did not find all the remains. They found up to 27 bones and her skull. And
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why it matters that you could determine whether she was actually buried or laid there was Dr. Meyer said it's very
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likely that the person who killed Molly and left her there was in a rush. Um and
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and Dr. Meyers also believed that it happened very shortly after she disappeared and was murdered.
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>> And then sadly, and this was something else Dr. Myers told us um is that there
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was a large animal there who scattered the bones and made it so difficult for searchers to find uh Molly. So, you
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know, once bones are are found, the Bish family are able to have a funeral. But what I thought was really interesting
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about something that Molly's mom, Maggie, said, um it stuck out to me. She said she felt blessed that she could
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have a funeral in a church. Amir, I think what she was also saying was that she had her baby back. Um,
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they are religious. Um, and they they relied on their faith and have always relied on their faith to get through
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this. But I think it was also the idea um, we see this time and time again. There's nothing worse, nothing worse for
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a family than when someone disappears and they are not found. And they at least knew where Molly was and they
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could go visit Molly and it was a huge funeral. So, they got the comfort of the entire community coming [music] out um
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mourning with them. But you know, anyone who watches this hour, you'll see almost
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the entire time Maggie cries through the interview. So, the pain is still there.
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Welcome back. In May of 2004, uh 4 years after Molly disappeared, then DA John Ki
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called for a grand jury to be convened. Now, according to the Bish family, who were called to testify, many of the
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questions focused on Molly's friends, but then 2 years later, the grand jury was dismissed without an indictment.
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This seems unusual to me, Aaron. Well, dissolving after two years, that's a long time, but the whole thing was rare.
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Let's be honest, your instincts are right. Um, usually grand juries are used so that prosecutors who think they're
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very close to being able to bring charges um will bring in witnesses where they think they can get probable cause
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or enough probable cause to convince a judge that they should be able to bring charges against someone. That's what
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grand juries are usually used for. But there are investigative grand juries and that's what in fact the now current DA
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Joe Early says this was for. Um, and that is possible because the benefit of a grand jury is that you can pull people
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in who don't want to talk and they have to. There's a subpoena. Um, and they have to tell the truth because they're
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under oath. So, it's it's very possible that this was from the beginning an investigative grand jury. Two years is a
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long time and very expensive, but because all the testimony is sealed, we really can't tell exactly what happened,
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but we do know that it is unusual and no indictments came out of it. >> I mean, for the Bish family, it must
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have been incredibly frustrating. They are sitting there, they're hearing all these questions about Molly's friends,
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and I'm sure they're wondering, well, what do they know that we should know? Um, and then at the end of two years,
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they they really get no answers. And not only do they not get answers from the grand jury, and they can't find out what
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people said, but the investigators aren't telling them much either. And you and I both know this, Amory, this
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happens all the time because investigators are always worried if they say something to the family, the
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family's going to tell friends that it's going to get out. So, it was very, very
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difficult for the family, as you can imagine. Heather was so frustrated. Um, she's the older sister. She doesn't have
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answers and she wants answers like everybody else. >> Wow. And this is what's particularly
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impressive about Heather because she is of course a very vocal advocate. She's been so throughout the years, but she
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wants to raise public awareness about this case and she does something that is sort of not not natural for her to do.
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She heads to Tik Tok. She does head to Tik Tok and you and I are both seeing that more and more now. Heather so much
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believes that she might be able to keep this case alive and and get tips that as
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of now she's done about 250 videos. Think about that. And has 12,000 followers. But even before there was Tik
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Tok, Heather was already on the case. And she would get tips from people and bring them to the police. She heard
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about a man who had been charged um with killing his girlfriend in Florida, a guy
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by the name of Rodney Stanganger, who was familiar with War in Massachusetts, but had moved to Florida. And the
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victim's sister had actually reached out and said he might be involved in Molly's
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murder. And so that was one of the tips that Heather gave police. And it turned out that Rodney Sanger had been on their
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radar. And in fact, they went and talked to him and later searched his trailer. And then later on, a private
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investigator told Heather about a man by the name of Gerald Bastoni. Um, who also had an extensive police
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record. And and in fact, again, Heather found out that he was also someone that they had looked at from the beginning.
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And we want to remind our listeners that there was not enough evidence to name Rodney Stanganger or Gerald Badeston as
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suspects. Um it does take, you know, more than two decades after Molly disappears. It's June 3rd, 2021, and
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police actually do name a person of interest. His name is Frank Sumner. Uh we learned in the hour that he's a local
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auto repair shop owner. He looks like that police sketch. He resembles it. He has access or had access to a white car
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and he was previously convicted of rape and kidnapping >> and >> and smoking with the left hand,
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>> right? >> So that to me is so significant. I mean that just stays in your head when you
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watch the hour. But I should point out a little bit of background on Sumar. who was convicted back in 1982 for
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aggravated rape and kidnapping after luring a woman to an apartment, choking her, and then threatening to kill her
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and raping her. He was parrolled in 1998, which was 2 years before Molly disappeared. And after his release, he
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accumulated a lengthy criminal record over 20 pages long that included multiple charges, failure to register as
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a sex offender, disorderly conduct, and harassment. And all those were still pending when he died. And um after the
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current DA had named Frank Sumner as a person of interest, Sumar's family became very upset and they said, you
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know, where's where's the proof? You know, um we have a large family. You know, we all share his name. Where's the
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proof? The DA tried to compare Sumner's DNA with DNA found at the crime scene, but the problem was Sumner was cremated.
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And somehow they had never taken his DNA while he was in prison. It was not in the FBI Kota system. So, uh, they sent
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investigators to Ohio and they took the DNA of his son and then after a year or so they announced that it's inconclusive
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and but won't explain what that means. That is so disappointing. Clearly, you know, COTUS has its limitations because
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it's only a certain pool of individuals that are going to be found in Cotus. But
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you would think somebody convicted of rape, it would be guaranteed that his DNA would be on file somewhere,
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>> right? But you know what? Some of the older cases, they weren't doing DNA back
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then. I think it's more common now that they're making sure that uh particularly
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people convicted of very serious crimes have their DNA in the system. But um I think that there's still a lot of hope
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as we've seen in so many cases recently as the testing for DNA gets better. I think the big question in this case is
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do they even have the killer's DNA? Um, if you remember the three hours of a delay before they really took this as a
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kidnapping, not just a young woman who disappeared. So, you had a contaminated crime scene. And so, while investigators
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did pick up cigarette butts and picked up everything, do they actually have DNA evidence from the killer? You actually
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went someplace really interesting for this hour. You visited the Massachusetts State Police Crime Lab's DNA cold
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storage facility. What was that like? >> Well, I had never been number one in a storage facility like that. That was so
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cold. And um it gave me great comfort to see how much evidence has been preserved. Um, and what we also learned
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while we were there is that um, as DNA tests improve, then that means that some of the evidence that they think is most
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important or could be important can be tested. I mean, even though it's been decades, there's at least one person who
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is confident that Molly's killer will be found, and it's a new detective, Detective Chelsea Safford. She was hired
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to take over the Bish investigation. I mean, she was very clear um that she believes that she will find they will
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find Molly's killer. I appreciate the confidence. What I kept on thinking was, well, what are you going to do
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differently? Well, you know, I know this sounds a little cliche, but she is going
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to add fresh eyes. And I have seen that where young investigators, she's young, she's a woman, might bring new ideas,
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might find something. She's going back through. She said there were like 8,000 tips that had come in. She's going back
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through those to see if there's a tip that maybe now 25 years later, you look at and you go, "Oh my god." Um, and so,
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you know, I appreciate her optimism and it's important for the community and it's important for the family. I'm I'm
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hoping for the family and everyone that is so invested in this that there is an end to this case and uh 48 hours can do
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that followup as well. Um, thank you so much for talking with us, Erin. >> Well, it's always great talking about
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these cases and they stay in our hearts for a long time. >> Yeah. Um, and thank you all for
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listening. If you like this podcast, [music] please rate and review on Apple Podcast or Spotify. And if you have any
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information that can help authorities find Molly's killer, please reach out to the Molly Bish tip line. That number is
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5084537575. [music]