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Before we begin, just a trigger warning. The following episode contains references to graphic physical violence
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and suicide. Please listen with care. Well, it was late at night and I was finishing up some work at my computer
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and I said, "Well, how how bad could this be?" You know, not never a good thing to say to yourself.
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Four years after Daniel Marsh had been sent to prison for murdering her mother, Claudia Mppen, Victoria Herd was sitting
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in her office preparing to watch a YouTube video. >> I came to realize that there are no such
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things as evil people in this world, only damaged people. >> There on the screen suddenly was Daniel
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Marsh. It was 2018 and Daniel was now 20 years old. >> I did horrible things to people who
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never deserve to be hurt. >> In the video, Daniel was standing on a stage delivering a TEDex talk organized
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by his correctional facility. His short hair was slick back and he wore a blue prison shirt and sweatpants.
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>> And I'm watching it like a deer in the headlights. You know, I can't pull my eyes away.
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>> It's a mature, self- assured Daniel Marsh telling his story. In all his previous interviews with law enforcement
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and psychiatrists, Daniel had denied being sexually abused. But that story had now changed.
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In his TED X talk, he claimed he had been sexually abused as a child, although he never named the culprit or
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provided any details about the alleged abuse. >> Growing up, I felt like there wasn't a
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soul in the world that I could tell. >> He also admitted that he hurt people, but he never apologized for murdering
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Chip and Claudia. >> I just went into a rage immediately. I went into a crying rage.
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>> What bothered you? Tell me. >> It was his arrogance. It was his um uh minimizing
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not talking about what he did. Uh you know, and not showing any kind of remorse.
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No remorse. But Daniel said he was changing. Finally, learning how to connect with others and let go of hate.
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We must always always embrace our humanity. [Applause] The audience was celebrating him as he
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spoke. Good job on your recovery. And you could feel that coming from his audience.
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>> Victoria says she couldn't quite believe her eyes. The audience rose to its feet
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and applauded. This was not a man, she believed, who had changed. I felt like no more. No more from you.
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We did a loving thing by putting you behind bars. This is a loving thing to our family and our community that's
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suffering. And then you're going to keep coming. >> Yeah. >> No. [Music] Chip and Claudia's family wanted to move
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forward and heal, so they pushed to get the video removed from the internet, and
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it was. But that video wasn't the last they'd see of Daniel Marsh. New laws in California intended to
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rehabilitate young offenders, were about to put Daniel's case in the spotlight again.
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This was a massive undertaking to essentially reopen the case. >> It had been 5 years since Daniel Marsh
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had killed two people. Was it possible that in that time he had changed? That certainly was his contention.
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>> I I'm not who I used to be. >> And if so, could he walk free? >> The fear was overwhelming.
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[Music] I'm 48 hours correspondent Aaron Morardi and this is 15 inside the Daniel Marsh murders
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episode 6 hurt people [Music] in his TEDex talk in March 2018 18, Daniel Marsh talked about why he
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believed he had changed for the better. And there was a reason for that public appeal. It was because of a new state
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law that might give Daniel a chance at freedom. >> One of the most controversial
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propositions on California's ballot would impact the state prison system and some say public safety.
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A ballot proposal called Prop 57 reform the state juvenile criminal justice system. It would allow only judges, not
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prosecutors, to decide whether certain juveniles would be tried as adults in court. And among those who had voted for
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the new law were Chip and Claudia's children. Victoria explained why. Of course, I want our children to be
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rehabilitated. I think that there's a lot of young criminals in the adult system that shouldn't be there. So, yes,
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I want to support any kind of rehabilitation for young people. Um, >> but did you think that might include
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>> I did not think that would include Daniel Marsh. But Daniel's attorneys argued despite
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the violence of his crimes, he should benefit from Prop 57, and an appeals court agreed and granted
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Daniel a new hearing at the Superior Court of Yolo County. Now, a juvenile court judge would go back, listen to the
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evidence, and decide if Daniel Marsh should have been tried as a juvenile instead of an adult.
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And this is what was at stake. If the judge ruled in Daniel's favor, he would then be tried as a juvenile. And even if
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he was again convicted, the state could be forced to set him free on his 25th birthday. Okay, Madame
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Clerk, let's go on the record. In the case JD18-332 in the matter of Daniel William Marsh,
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the judge had to weigh several factors, including the sophistication and gravity
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of the crime, prior juvenile delinquent behavior, and the probability of rehabilitation.
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You know, of course, my memory of Daniel is him telling me he wants to put a pen
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in my neck and crush my head with a laptop. So, um, right, I was skeptical. >> That's Dr. Matthew Sulier, who took the
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witness stand for the defense. He's the psychiatrist I spoke to in the last episode, who was first asked to evaluate
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Daniel Marsh in 2013. 5 years after the trial, he had received a call from Daniel's defense team asking
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if he would meet with their client again. >> We were being asked for the first time
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as child forensic psychiatrists, is Daniel amendable to rehabilitation? Um, and this was new quite frankly and and
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why start with this guy? I mean, this guy is um extremely challenging and I said, I'll, you know, I'll give it a
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shot. I' I'd like to see what he looks like 5 years later. And I went and met with him.
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>> And was the same Daniel Marsh sitting in front of you when you walked in? >> No, he was different. Well, he wasn't a
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boy anymore, obviously, so he was, you know, more grown up. He had more of the appearance of an adult. He was much
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warmer. Immediately he remembered that he had threatened to harm me. He without me
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prompting expressed remorse for it, said he was sorry. Um and then proceeded to tell me how he had grown, how he had
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changed, how he had uh so-called done the work, and that he had gained a lot by being around people who had been
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compassionate towards him. In his testimony, Dr. Sulier said Daniel had begun his rehabilitation early on in
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juvenile hall. >> He's still not out of the woods. He's still got some definite growth and
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maturation to do, but he's grown a lot emotionally. As for Daniel's past fixation on killing
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others, >> the homicidal ideation, those thoughts, imagery, um, intentions to kill other
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people have completely ceased. Um, per his report. >> Daniel told Sulier that he had never
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felt better. >> It was his opinion that he could live violent free, that he could um be set
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free at 25, and that he could live without violence. I first spoke with Dr. Sulier a few
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months after his 2018 testimony at the hearing, >> but you did testify that you thought he
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could be rehabilitated. >> I did and I didn't. I was struggling because of course I was struggling with
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just the nature of what he did. It was horrific. It's hard to contemplate that the mind behind that crime is
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changeable. He did a horrible crime. He's a psychopath. Let's throw him away. Why are we even having this silly
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hearing? And I too, I grappled with it, too. He is an extreme. >> You wrote in in your report, "Mr. Marsh
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is manipulative, intelligent, and capable of deceiving this evaluator and others."
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>> I did. >> And if he is in fact lying to you, wouldn't that make you more concerned
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about his ability to be rehabilitated? It would be if he was uh lying and being disingenuous about everything then right
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that would be a pause for concern but there are some things that he can't lie about. Um there are other factors to
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consider as it relates to transfer. There is the the absence of his delinquency history. There is the
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absence of a court reaching out to him and trying to help him before he did this. there are things that he can't lie
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about that help his cause. Um, and gave me reason to go in and try to opine that
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he should go back to a juvenile jurisdiction. >> Dr. Matthew Sulier was hired by Daniel's
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defense team. So when his testimony wrapped, the prosecution called its own expert on psychopathy, forensic
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psychologist Matthew Logan. While Logan had never met Daniel Marsh, he did examine his records and saw that when he
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had turned 18, Daniel had scored a 35.8 out of 40 on a widely used psychopathy checklist.
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It was one of the highest scores Dr. Logan had ever seen. In other words, according to this
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assessment, Daniel Marsh had nearly all the traits of a psychopath. Some of the traits are glib, superficial
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charm, grandiose sense of selfworth, pathological lying, uh criminal versatility,
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uh lack of responsibility, uh inability to feel remorse. >> Dr. Logan also highlighted a
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psychopath's ability to con and manipulate. Well, they they have an uncanny ability
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to to um use their charm and use use a lot of real savvy as opposed to just straight intelligence, but street smarts
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in order to kind of manipulate police, uh psychologists, uh national parole board, the courts.
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>> Logan told me at the time that releasing a psychopath like Daniel Marsh was dangerous.
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It definitely means that um that this person is not going to be easily rehabilitated or not rehabilitated at
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all by any means that is being used within the correctional system. I think this is going to be something that he's
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going to be dealing with the rest of his life. >> Do you believe that Daniel Marsh could
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kill again and will kill again? >> I I believe that he could kill again. And if I was being asked uh to make a
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decision on the likelihood, I would say it's more likely than not that he would kill again.
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>> This was the chief concern for Claudia and Chip's family members when they were
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allowed to give impact statements at the hearing. Here's Chip's daughter, Mary Northup.
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I was raised to believe that people deserve a second chance. But a second chance is really only
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worthwhile if one acknowledges and understands the issues that caused the failure in the first place and has the
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desire and ability not to do the same thing again. >> Mary acknowledged that no punishment
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would ever bring back her father. But the one thing this court could do is protect all the other families
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from suffering as ours has suffered at the hands of this defendant. >> As she spoke, Mary alternated her gaze
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between the judge and Daniel. >> He didn't look at anyone that gave it a personal statement. I I was surprised
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because if he's a really good manipulator, he at least looks and tries to be empathic. But I think he didn't
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look cuz he realized he couldn't feain empathy. >> After the victim's statements, the judge
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requested a brief recess, and Daniel's defense team returned with a surprising announcement.
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Daniel himself was going to testify. >> Daniel Marshall witnessed stand direct exam by attorney Pelito.
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>> Daniel described his time first in juvenile hall and then an adult correctional facility. He admitted to
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taking drugs inside prison and that he had been hospitalized after cutting his wrist. You know, again, when I I first
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came in, I I made a lot of mistakes. Um, and one of those mistakes was, you know,
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experimenting a little bit with meth and then a lot with uh heroin. And I I ended
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up using heroin pretty consistently for a little over a year. >> That included injecting it.
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>> It did. Yeah. Eventually, it got to the point where I was I had my own rig, as
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they call it, syringe. But Daniel said he stopped using drugs when he became involved with groups like
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TED X inside the prison. >> Have you learned anything in any of these groups about responsibility for
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your own behavior? >> I have. Yeah. Um that was mainly through errors and criminal thinking.
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>> Can you tell the court a little bit about what you learned? >> Sure. Um, I guess what it comes down to
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is like the main errors in criminal thinking is like the selfishness behind it and the the self-centerness behind
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it. Not taking into account how your actions affect those around you and affect other people in negative ways.
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You know, again, like feeling entitled, you know, feeling like it's all about you or feeling um
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like you you can like the rules don't apply, I guess. Um and part of um breaking that way of thinking is
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uh accepting responsibility for your mistakes and for your actions, you know, and and ex acknowledging and beginning
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to, you know, like work through what the things that you have done have done to other people. I guess
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>> Daniel Marsh insisted that he was a changed man, no longer the troubled child who had viciously murdered two
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people. >> I mean, it's night and day, man. It's it's completely different. You know, I
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no longer struggle with mental illness. I've worked through the vast majority of
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my my anger and hate. And for the first time, he addressed his victim's families.
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>> Nothing I ever say or do will ever be enough, but I'm I'm sorry. I'm I'm I'm sorry.
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I'm I'm sorry I took them away from you. I'm sorry for all the pain that I've caused you.
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I'm sorry for the pain that I'm sure I'm still causing you. I'm sorry for every horrible thing that you've gone through
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because of me. I'm sorry for everything. And if I could undo it, I would. I I and I know that until
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I truly process what I did, the then I can't really give you the apology that you deserve. I I
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can't even bring myself to look at you. But I I really and and I know you don't think I'm being genuine, but I just
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really hope that at least to some extent you're able to receive this because I'm truly sorry.
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>> But for Chip's daughter, Mary, that apology didn't sound sincere. for me to be convinced that he's sorry
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for what he did would be for him to talk about it and to say I did that and that was
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awful. And he really even in his apology all he said was that was another me. That was a dark me. You know that's it
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it it he wasn't willing to embrace that that really was him. [Music] [Applause] At the opening of the last day of the
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hearing, Daniel Marsh smiled and exchanged pleasantries with his lawyers as they waited for the judge to enter
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the chamber. Okay, madame clerk, let's go on the record in the matter of Daniel William
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Marsh, case JD18-332. And uh what I have before me is a written court order. >> Daniel looked down as the judge read
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from his order. >> The legal basis of the remand was the November 9th, 2016 passage of
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Proposition 57. After going over the details of the crime in the case against Daniel, the
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judge announced his decision. In conclusion, the seriousness of the offense, both in terms of its
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sophistication and the gravity, along with the finding that Marsh has made little progress in rehabilitation in the
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past 5 years, support the ultimate ruling of this court to transfer the case to adult criminal court.
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Daniel's original sentence, a minimum of 52 years in prison would stand. As the judge announced his verdict, the
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courtroom remained silent. Daniel kept his eyes locked on the floor and didn't visibly react, but Claudia and Chip's
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family members did. They gathered to hug each other and cry. We did it. We did it. We did it. You did
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it. >> And yet, it was still not over. Daniel's legal team continued to pursue appeals
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in the wake of yet another new California state bill that went into effect in January 2019.
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This one would prohibit 14 and 15y olds from ever being tried as adults, even killers.
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To me, this is terrorizing. [Music] Although Victoria had voted for Prop 57, she actively protested against this
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newest state law known as Senate Bill 1391 with Daniel Marsh on her mind. I realize that this man is not the
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typical juvenile offender. However, the passage of this bill will make all juvenile offenders one and the same.
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There will be no discernment and no responsibility. If 1391 is passed, the man who murdered
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my parents and many others like him will be released into society at age 25. In response to Senate Bill 1391,
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Daniel's defense team appealed his 52-year prison sentence, arguing that this latest new law should be
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retroactively applied to his case. It raised the possibility that once again Daniel could be eligible for an early
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release. He was not giving up on getting out. >> The the overwhelming amount of fear that
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I had of him knowing first of all knowing us. >> That's Sarah Rice, Claudia Mppin's
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granddaughter. >> He knows our names. Of course he does. He's seen us in court. And then it was the capacity that he
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could get back on the streets and do what he's done again. >> Yes, >> that fear is overwhelming.
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And I was thinking about every little kid and every woman that was running on the streets or a family that was walking
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in a park or an individual that was sleeping in their home. Daniel's latest appeal made its way to
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the California Supreme Court in 2021. but was sent back to a lower court the next year. The state supreme court
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ultimately rejected the appeal in 2023. So, at least for now, Daniel Marsh remains in prison. According to the
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correctional facility where he is currently being housed, Daniel will be eligible for parole in December 2036.
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He'll be 39 years old, but that's subject to change. Even behind bars, Daniel Marsh has left a deep mark on
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many of those involved in his case. >> My experiences, if you work in crime, uh there's always going to be one or two
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cases that are just not going to go away. They're going to haunt you in the sense of uh I always remember him. He's
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indelible to me. When I spoke with Dr. Matthew Sulier again in 2025, he said his thinking about Daniel Marsh
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had evolved since our first conversation. Yeah, I have had experiences in my life
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that um have also made me much more attuned to the experience of of being a victim and um it it has changed me. has
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changed my process and and meeting over 100 kids that have killed people now. Um
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I have a totally different I I think I would approach Daniel very differently than I did in 2018. He should be um the
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kid that that deserves different consequences um different considerations. He will
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always be a psychopath and that there would be grave danger to to letting him out.
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As for Chip and Claudia's family, they still grieve deeply. It's impossible to overstate the trauma
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caused not only by Daniel Marsh's actions, but by the investigation that followed. If you remember, in the early
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days after the murders, one of Chip Norup's grandsons, Tony, was mistakenly identified as the possible perpetrator.
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That created tremendous stress and financial problems for him and his family. In October 2016,
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at age 31, Tony died by suicide. His family, including his father, Robert, and brother Oliver, were left to grieve yet
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another terrible loss. This case has left a mark on me, too. With all the killers I've met, even
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spoken to, I've never encountered anyone so unknowable as Daniel Marsh. Daniel's crimes still have ripple
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effects to this day. Victoria Herd and Sarah Rice now work with other families who have been harmed by violent crime
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and continued to advocate changes to state law. So people like Daniel Marsh never walk free and they continue to
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share memories of Chip and Claudia because you know at the end of the day for me I have a responsibility and my
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responsibility is to show the world who my grandmother was >> and the life that she lived not the life
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that she died by. >> Not the way that she died. Yeah. Chip and Claudia's family remember them
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for everything they created. The years of joy, laughter, and music. This is Victoria.
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I never remember a day that I didn't speak with her or love her or ask her for direction or giggle with her. Um,
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she was my world. >> Mary Northup also remembers walking nearly every day with her father Chip,
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catching up on their lives. He had this voice too sometimes, you know, Mary, you know, you could hear it
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and and it made me feel good to know it was there. >> You can hear Claudia and Chip enjoy the
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festivities of Claudia's 75th birthday party. It was held just a year before the two were killed. They laughed and
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they sang with friends. >> Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you. >> The memory of Claudia and Chip lives on
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through their family while the man who took their lives and fantasize about taking others
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sits behind bars for now. He will never understand how wonderful they were and are.
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[Music] [Music] This is 15 inside the Daniel Marsh murders. This series was reported by me,
00:29:56
Aaron Morardi. Alan Pang is our producer. Mora Walls is our story editor and Jamie Benson is the senior producer.
00:30:07
Megan Marcus is the vice president of podcast editorial for CBS. Special thanks to 48 hours executive producer
00:30:16
Judy Tyiggard along with 48 hours producers Judy Ryback, Stephanie Slifer, and Greg Fiser from Goat Rodeo. This
00:30:27
podcast was written and produced by Cara Schillin, Max Johnston, Jay Venibals, Isabelle Kirby McGawan, Megan Nadulski,
00:30:37
and Ian Enright. Additional reporting and recording by Cara Schillin. Our executive producers
00:30:45
at Goat Rodeo are Megan Nadulski and Ian Enright. Original theme and music by Hans Delshi
00:30:53
with additional music from Paramount. Final mix by Rebecca Sidell. Then Fulton is our fact checker. Our production
00:31:03
manager is Carara Schillin. I'm Aaron Morardi. If you're enjoying this show, be sure to give it a rating and review.
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It helps more people find it and hear our reporting. If you liked 15 Inside the Daniel Marsh Murders, check out the
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00:31:34
[Music]