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Welcome to Postmortem. I'm 48 Hours correspondent [music] Natalie Morales filling in today for Anne Marie Green,
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and today we are discussing the case of Gary Herbes who was reported missing by his wife in 2014.
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Three years later, a dog discovered his skull in rural Wisconsin with a gunshot wound in the back of the head. Joining
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me today to discuss his fascinating report is 48 Hours correspondent Peter Van Zandt. Thanks for joining us, Peter.
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Hey, Natalie. How are you? I'm good, thank you. And this one really was riveting. Absolutely. And the notion
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that this man in in rural Wisconsin, he goes out, sees his dog gnawing on something in the driveway, comes up and
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checks it out and sees a human skull and calls police. It was just incredible. >> Now, Peter, this hour also features your
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exclusive interview with a convicted killer. And it And this is one of the most revealing conversations about a
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murder that I've heard here on 48 Hours. Yeah, over the years I was trying to add
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it up. I've I've talked to about 19 accused killers. None of them has ever admitted it. Uh
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we've had very confrontational interviews and things and gotten very close to getting them to to admit. But
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in this case, uh Austin Herbes, uh Gary's son, not only admits it, but he gives us details
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step-by-step of how he murdered his own father and left his corpse in the woods for animals to eat to destroy the
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evidence. He He delivers that matter-of-factly, and it's uh it's chilling and yet fascinating. So, in
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2017, after that dog dug up an unidentified human skull, police then went to the woods in Wisconsin. They
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found additional human remains there, but investigators were unable to identify the victim until 3 years later.
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And that's when genetic genealogists got involved, and they were able to use DNA
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to trace a family tree, which then led them to identifying the victim as Gary Herbes. Gary's wife, Connie, had filed a
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missing person's report for him back in 2014. Peter, what was her story back then?
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Connie said that Gary just walked out on them, packed some clothing, took $5,000
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in cash, but he left his cell phone behind. That seemed very strange. Connie said that he left in a gray Honda
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vehicle that was driven by an unknown person. And Connie says that she was at home, and this is important later. She
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was at home when Gary left her and only reported him missing when Gary's sister asked them to many months later when
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there'd been a death in the family and they wanted to notify Gary. That's when they learned that he was missing and
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they urged Connie to file that report. So, there was a gap in the timing from when he went missing to then when they
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actually reported it. And then when investigators were able to finally track down Gary's wife, Connie, and their
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adult son, Austin, in 2020, they said, as you did, that Gary walked out on the family 7 years earlier and
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described him as being volatile and abusive. But investigators were immediately suspicious about the stories
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they were telling because some of the details weren't really adding up, right, Peter? That's absolutely right. In 2020,
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Connie told cops she was at the library when he left, not at home. Remember her first story, she said she was at home.
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Also in 2020, Connie said that her .40 caliber gun had been taken, but she didn't mention anything about her pistol
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being taken before. And Austin's version of events changed throughout his interviews. His first police interview,
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he claimed a stranger picked Gary up and drove away. But in his second interview,
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he said the driver was a mysterious man with tattoos who was sketchy. And during
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a second interview, they both consented, Austin and his mother, Connie, to a polygraph test. Now, Connie didn't show
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any signs of deception, but Austin did. And by this point, investigators had a hunch they were lying, but there was no
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other evidence. So, they had to let Connie and Austin go, even though their their instincts told them, gosh, they
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must have been involved in in Gary's disappearance. Well, the investigators then continue on with their work trying
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to put the case together. They then go canvass the neighborhood, and that's when they were able to get clues from
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the neighbors who said he was a confrontational and retaliatory guy. So, the neighbors, Chad and Kaya, told them
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back in 2013 they remembered seeing Austin and Connie scrubbing the floors in the middle of the night. They were
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loading large garbage bags and what appeared to be a rolled-up rug or a carpet into Gary's truck. Yet, they
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didn't report any of this to the police. Why not, Peter? Yeah, and and Kaya recalls that when they had observed them
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loading up the garbage bags, her husband, Chad, said, "Kaya, I think they finally killed him." But
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they were going off on a hunch. Since they did not see the body or any blood, they thought Gary, as the whole
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neighborhood did, was a horrible man and in some ways potentially dangerous. The
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neighbors also told investigators that, "Look, murder is never the answer, and that no one deserves to be murdered, but
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they also hoped that these two would not be punished in any way because they felt
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Gary was just that terrible of a human being." So, they speculated from the get-go then
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it was Connie and Austin who killed Gary and that he didn't just walk out on the
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family as, you know, Connie and Austin were telling people back then. Yeah, it's like that scene out of The Wizard
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of Oz, you know, "Ding dong, the witch is dead, the wicked old witch." That's the way it was in that
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neighborhood. And uh when they were watching Austin and Connie after he had disappeared, they were so happy. You
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know, they were walking around with cookies and offering them to neighbors that they hadn't really spoken to much
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cuz they said Gary always kept them indoors. And um neighbors also saw Austin and Connie, if you're ready for
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this, setting up for a yard sale. And what was for sale? Well, it was men's clothing, Gary's clothing, obviously,
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men's shoes, ammo boxes, tools, uh Gary's favorite ride-along uh lawnmower. And when Kaya asked Connie where Gary
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was, she replied, "Uh he just didn't want to be married anymore and he left." Yeah, but the real crack in the case was
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when a cadaver dog, Radar, then searched the former Herbes house in 2020 and detected the scent of human remains.
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Now, as a dog lover, I love that you have two dogs that really helped be the key in helping solve this case. Yeah,
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the handler, Dan Moldenhauer, told us that Radar is a German Shepherd rescue from Wisconsin.
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And when she detects the presence of human decomposition, she will turn around, sit, and look right at
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Moldenhauer. And I witnessed this myself. After all these years, Radar went through the Herbes house and
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alerted at the very spot where the new owners said that she had seen this red stain on the floor. And at the time
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Radar alerted and when we were there, she did it again, which is really something to see. The dog also alerted
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at the basement sliding door that led outside, which is where, of course, the neighbors had seen the the two of them
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bringing out bags and what appeared to be this rolled-up rug, which when they were talking to each other, they
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thought, "Gosh, could there be a body inside that?" And all of the areas that Radar detected
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were also areas where the Luminol glowed. 48 Hours people know very well, you spray this chemical, Luminol, it
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detects blood and turn off the lights and they put a special uh uh light that causes that chemical to
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glow, and all over that house it was glowing. Uh it looked like um you know, Times Square, and that told them this
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was definitely the murder scene. So, even though, Peter, this was largely a circumstantial case back in November
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2020, police then arrested Connie and Austin for Gary Herbes' murder. And when Austin was interviewed then for the
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fourth time, that is when he finally said he shot his father and he alleged he did it because of years of physical
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and psychological abuse. Now, you, Peter, were able to sit face-to-face with Austin. You spoke to him at length.
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What was it like sitting across from him hearing all that detail? He was one of the most fascinating killers I have ever
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met, and I can call him that cuz he admitted to it. He was charming, articulate, intelligent, a a great
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storyteller, and a man who's spent all this time in prison. He's really thought about this story, and he has ready-made
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answers for whatever you ask. He believes the killing of his father was justified, and he told me with with
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without any emotion that if he could go back in time and the circumstances were the same, he'd shoot him again.
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He tells one story during the course of the interview that there was this bloody
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mess down there on the floor. We didn't put any of this in the show itself. His mother comes home and she sees it, and
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they were both just matter-of-fact about, "Hmm, we need to clean this up." Uh but despite all of those years
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passing, Austin never came forward, remember this, to tell the truth about what had occurred inside that house
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until he had to, until basically he was confronted with, "We know you did this."
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There's a really interesting exchange that I had with Austin that wasn't in the show that I want people to hear.
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It's about his thought process leading up to his confession because it suggests that there was a possible cover-up here.
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About 4 and 1/2 hours into the questioning, you finally do speak up and you say, "I would like to tell the
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truth, but I need to talk to my mom first." Why did you have to talk to her? Was
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that to fabricate another story? I think it was partially that. Part of my brain was thinking, "Well, I
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need to talk to my mom and, you know, figure out what to say to get away with this."
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Now, later on in my life here, I think I was looking for an excuse to tell the truth.
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I think I was looking for a way to to confess what I had done. Because even though
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I had had these years of happiness and freedom, it's a weight. It truly is a weight
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having something like that and knowing that nobody knows. Hm. So interesting, Peter.
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>> Yeah, to have a discussion on how to get away with this murder. Wow. He is a He is a contradiction all the
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time. You You feel sorry for him in one moment and then others, there's this cold calculation that's going on.
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Um so, that's what makes him so fascinating. Yeah. Well, Austin did say on the day of the murder that Gary and
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Connie had gotten in to some sort of argument. Connie then left. He said she went to the library.
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Gary then fell asleep on the couch and that's when Austin said he saw the gun under the skirt of the couch. He said,
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"That's when he sort of went into this mode where he started to fear for his life, for his mother's life." He picked
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up the gun and then he shot Gary while Gary was asleep laying on that couch. I want to play more of your interview when
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you grilled Austin about his actions. What do you say that your life, while he was sleeping there
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on the couch, was not under imminent threat? And that you could have picked up the
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gun and left the house and gone to the police. You didn't have to shoot him. This wasn't
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legally self-defense. This was murder. Correct. What do you say to all that? I have to refer back to, again, 18 years
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I've been told, "If you try to have me arrested, if you try to flee, if you try to, you know,
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go your own way, I will find you and kill you." You believe you have no doubt, in fact, that when he
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woke up, he would have been the one to pick up that firearm, he would have been the one to pull the trigger. Absolutely.
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100%. Kill or be killed. >> Exactly. And it's a terrible It's a terrible situation to have been put in.
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Kill my father or accept that my death is on its way. The question I still have to this day,
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was it kill or be killed or was it kill and we'll be happy the rest of our lives
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by eliminating this man who, by many accounts, was a nasty personality with a mean disposition.
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And he says that he suffered abuse. He's asking others to understand that he was
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protecting his and his mom's lives. Keep in mind, he always said, "I was my mother's protector." And he really did
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believe she would be shot. But prosecutors said, "There's a lot of ways of protecting people these days." And
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that Austin should have picked up the gun, gone to cops. But we've seen, of course, in other cases where victims of
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domestic abuse uh did all the right steps and they still ended up being killed by their
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abusers. Prosecutor's argued, however, "You can't let someone off easy for murder just because [music] they claim
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that they were abused, or else anyone could say that." And as they told me off camera, "You could have a million people
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murdered a year if that was a legitimate basis for killing someone." Welcome back.
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>> [music] >> Now, Austin Harps claimed that he shot his father, Gary, after he alleges Gary
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abused him and his mother for years. But, Peter, despite all those allegations, did police ever get any
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reports of abuse or did family members become aware of any such claims of abuse? Prosecutor's say there was no
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reported evidence of abuse and that the first time Austin and Connie talk about abuse is after Gary's body is identified
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and a murder investigation is launched. And Gary's the victim's sister, Linda, and her husband uh hung out with them
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many, many times before there was this sort of breakup with in the family and they never saw any evidence of abuse,
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not a bruise, not a scratch, a cut. In fact, uh Linda's husband was a veteran cop of 30 years, trained to to to look
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for signs of abuse. And he said whenever he saw Austin and his father, Gary, together
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that that was a loving relationship and they had a great time together. But remember, and this is important,
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Linda was estranged from Gary and hadn't seen him for years. And over time, who knows, the abuse may have gotten worse.
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Yeah, and I mean, of course, the other side of that, Peter, we know with domestic abuse victims that they usually
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suffer in silence or they fear that if they tell someone, the abuse will just get worse for them. And psychological
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abuse, well, you can't necessarily see it. That It doesn't give you bruises or a black eye. So, this is what's made my
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head spin around during the course of this of this investigation and it it spins to this day.
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You raised the issue with Austin. We have a little bit more of your exchange. Prosecutor's also say
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that there was no what they call real evidence that either you or your mother were ever physically abused by Gary.
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Never called police, you didn't seek help from the court system, you didn't seek help from any social
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agencies. And what do you say to that? For as many abuse cases that are reported to police,
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for as many people who contact them and receive restraining orders against other
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people due to domestic abuse and violence, I don't know the statistics, but I can
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guarantee you there are just as many that go unreported. Not everybody has the freedom or the courage or the
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ability to call the cops, to receive a restraining order. Why didn't you ever share with
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a friend, "My father is abusing me and my mother. We We fear him." They could find no one to back up
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your story. I had to hide it. I I had attempted to when I was younger and it brought me either being bullied
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because I was a weird child, or just apathy. Wasn't their problem. And I I mean, I'm talking kindergarten,
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first, second grade. As a child, I was like, "Okay, nobody cares. So, I'll just keep this to
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myself." It's a compelling story. I can't tell you that it is untrue. It's just as as prosecutors who are
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suspicious about all this say, "It only came out when their lives were on the line." And this was the only
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defense in the prosecutor's minds that they could put forward that in some ways would create sympathy for them.
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And and the notion that they had was that that could lead to a a lesser sentence. You then asked Austin
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how he and his mother, Connie, decided to dispose of Gary's body. I want to play a little bit more of your
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interview. This part didn't make it into the hour. We drive for I'd say about two two and a
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half hours. I start taking county roads and there is a like almost like a square of forest and
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then a field. And then you try to dig a hole, a grave? Yeah. What happens? In the process of doing so,
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cars, you know, I I can still see the lights on the road of vehicles that passed by.
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And I saw a vehicle go by and I heard the vehicle slow down. So, at that point, I got nervous and
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I went back to the car. I figured that wildlife would take care of the rest. What do you mean wildlife take care of
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the Bears, foxes, they would devour the body, the bones would be scattered. Nobody would know.
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That seems a bit barbaric. Absolutely. I was not in a state of mind that I ever want to revisit.
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I was at the lowest I'd ever been. Both in my emotions and in my humanity. Hm. Dump the body so animals would eat him.
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And um he says it so matter-of-factly even now. There's no emotion behind those words.
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It's a It's He's like he's delivering a report. It It became, in a way, the perfect cover-up. You know, evidence is
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in the stomach of beasts. And they also ended up getting rid of other evidence. According to Austin, after they returned
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home, they cut up the couch into pieces cuz there was blood all over the couch. They put the pieces in plastic bags and
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placed them in Gary's truck along with the rug. That's the stuff that the neighbors believe actually saw and drove
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to a campsite where he and his mother burned the remaining evidence. They also disposed of the gun used to kill him in
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a lake that's that was nearby. And after the murder, they did everything possible
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to cover up what they had done. They lied to cops. And I said to him, "That's what criminals do." And he says, "Yeah,
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that is." And did they ever tell you if they thought at all to call the cops and and,
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you know, to claim even that this they did this in self-defense instead of, you know, trying to cover up what was a
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murder? Yeah, I was a little surprised by this. Austin said that he and his mother
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didn't call the police because they believe that cops are evil. Austin told me that he was made to feel scared that
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if he did call the cops, he would be locked away for life. So, they lied to cops for years. Let's talk more about
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Connie Herbst because she pleaded guilty to aiding an offender, an accomplice after the fact. She was sentenced to 2
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years 3 months without a trial, but under Minnesota sentencing guidelines, Connie ended up serving just 3 months
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behind bars. She was released in May of 2022. Now, in your interview with Austin, Peter, you raised the
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prosecutor's speculation about whether Connie might have actually been the one to have shot Gary Herbst and that
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Austin, as he said, he was always his mother's protector, was he perhaps the one who was then taking the fall for it?
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Yeah, the prosecution really wanted to cross-examine Connie to challenge her about her story of if if she was at the
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house or at the library, but because she took this plea deal, she didn't go to trial and they never got that chance.
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And of course, we asked Connie for an interview and she turned us down. Well, Austin ultimately pleaded guilty to
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second-degree murder and in 2021, a judge sentenced him to 12 years and 6 months. Now, Austin will be eligible for
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release in 2029. Peter, were you at all surprised by the sentence? Yes, there's you know, discretion with the judge. She
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heard his story and people who've listened to this podcast, you get a sense of of this young man, the
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intelligence. You don't sense there's some demonic threatening thing in his personality. She believed his story of
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abuse. The prosecution, honestly, was flabbergasted by how light a sentence was given to both Connie and Austin. And
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consider this, in addition to the murder, Connie and Austin, they'd obstructed an investigation. They lied
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to police officers. That's a crime. They desecrated a corpse. And you would have
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thought those things would have been reflected in the length of their sentences,
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but it was not. But as you report, Peter, which was so fascinating is hearing from the neighbors again, who,
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you know, they hated Gary Herbst. And they were actually hoping that Connie and Austin would have to serve no time.
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They didn't want them to do any hard time. I don't think we ever hear people being that empathetic and supportive to
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defendants in a case of murder. Yeah, the the neighbors, the former neighbors were very supportive of of the
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two of them. One said that she thinks Austin's sentence is is too much time and that it's wrong considering the
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abuse. And another neighbor felt that Austin's actions were justified and he even offered to help him when he gets
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out. He told me, "I might offer him a job." And they they they felt the Austin they got to know was not a threat to
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society in any way. Well, one can hope that he's he's learned a lot from this experience and having the time to think
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about [music] his actions. But thank you again for great reporting [music] and for joining us.
00:23:28
Thanks, Natalie. And thank you all for listening. Now, if you like this podcast, please rate and review on Apple
00:23:34
Podcasts or Spotify.