00:00:03
[music] >> I was uh with [music] the prosecutor's office for 30 years and uh this was my
00:00:26
last trial in my career. Being a prosecutor [music] has a has a lifelong effect on you.
00:00:35
There has [music] to be some way to come back to humanity and put the [music] violence aside.
00:00:45
This was an aggravated murder case. The victim's name [music] is Gloria Choi. She was a hard-working mom, a good role
00:00:53
model, and [music] Gloria's parents talk about how she was kind of their angel. She spent most [music] of her life
00:00:59
working in the family business of running hotels. >> [music] >> She came off very shy and quiet, but she
00:01:06
was nothing of those. >> [laughter] >> She was passionate about her family and her [music] son, had hopes and dreams
00:01:15
for herself. What we know is there [music] were four calls placed to law enforcement in the final 48 hours
00:01:23
before [music] she was killed. This person continues to stalk her, has slashed her tire,
00:01:30
>> [music] >> has stolen thousands of dollars worth of property. She called for help and she
00:01:35
was deprived of help that she's entitled to under the law time and time again. The evening that she was murdered, she
00:01:43
was going home, actually just taking a break to eat dinner. [music] He was right behind her when she left.
00:01:50
He knew everywhere she went. 911, what's your location, ma'am? Sir? I don't know
00:01:55
where I am, but I'm scared get out of my car. He forced her vehicle off the road. She
00:02:01
doesn't know at that point who this [music] is, and she's not able to drive anymore.
00:02:07
Let me get police on line with that, okay? Do you see a street sign? I don't know where I am. Okay. I'm on the corner
00:02:12
of Court. And he approaches her vehicle, and she notices he has a gun. He's got a gun.
00:02:20
Hello, can you hear me? All of a sudden, we heard a rapid-fire about seven or eight shots.
00:02:27
And he just unloaded in I was just in shock. And saw him disappear, and I then ran over and called the police. There's
00:02:35
a pickup there against a telephone pole with its lights on, motor running. I don't see anybody in it. So, you heard
00:02:41
three pops? No, we heard a lot more than that. So, in all, 14 shots. Just riddles her
00:02:48
car with bullets, right? Uh he's close range. He's shooting right through her driver's side window.
00:02:58
She should have been protected, and she wasn't. Do you blame [music] the police for not
00:03:03
taking better care of your friend? I do blame the police for not taking [music] it seriously.
00:03:11
You have a perpetrator who's escalating. Any law enforcement officer who's following the training would know this
00:03:16
woman was in [music] incredible danger. >> [music] [music] [music] >> On January 2nd, 2022, Gloria Choi placed
00:04:11
that [music] anguished call to 911. I don't know where I am. I'm scared to get out of my car.
00:04:18
>> Yeah. This car is stolen. Seconds later, Can you hear me? multiple shots are fired. The audio is
00:04:28
too graphic to play in full. It lasts about 2 minutes, and dispatchers are trying to make sense of
00:04:35
what they just heard. Hello, can anybody hear me? Hello. Officers from the Lakewood Police
00:04:44
Department in Washington arrive within minutes. One of the officers that approached, you
00:04:50
can see him trying to get to her quickly, and the doors are locked. Former Pierce County Prosecutor Greg
00:04:57
Greer describes what first responders did. They bust out a rear window, smartly, wisely, so they can preserve
00:05:09
the evidence, and they're able to extricate her pretty quickly. And did you see them pull out the victim
00:05:18
at all? I did. Yeah. Terry Estepold gave police a detailed description of what he witnessed.
00:05:26
And I was probably 30 ft away, and they put her on the ground and worked on her hard for several minutes.
00:05:34
Had to be hard for you to witness that. It's terrible, and I it still bothers me
00:05:38
a lot to this day, just thinking about it. Gloria was pronounced dead a short time
00:05:44
later at a nearby hospital. Breanna Eberly soon heard the news that her best friend had been killed, but she
00:05:54
couldn't quite accept it. And I repeatedly [music] repeatedly called Gloria's phone over
00:06:00
and over again. No answer, no answer, no answer. And then I called >> [music] >> her dad.
00:06:05
And then he finally answered. And I remember asking him, [music] "Is it true? Is she Is she gone? Is she Is it true?"
00:06:16
He said, "Yeah, she's gone." Greer took us to the scene and walked us through what he learned from
00:06:27
investigators. This would have been gravel shoulder and somewhere in here he pinches her vehicle
00:06:35
off and she's no longer able to to move forward. He's blocking her. I think my boyfriend's following me. He
00:06:43
just hit my car. Gloria says the man is her boyfriend, but does not give a name.
00:06:51
He gets out of the vehicle and if you've heard the 911 call, she describes exactly what what he's doing.
00:06:58
He's got a gun. Please stop. Greer says the shooter was standing next to Gloria's driver's side window. The
00:07:07
door was locked. He's not trying to talk to her. He immediately [music] starts shooting.
00:07:11
>> to kill her. He is there to kill her. After firing nine 40 caliber bullets through the door and window of Gloria's
00:07:19
truck, Greer says the shooter begins to drive away. As he does, Gloria's truck moves forward
00:07:27
until it hits a utility pole as shown in this police animation. Greer believes the truck moved because Gloria's foot
00:07:35
was no longer applying pressure to the brake. He doesn't know whether she's alive or
00:07:41
not is what we [music] believe is going through his mind because the vehicle's no longer where it was. That's 60 yards
00:07:47
west of where it [music] was when he first shot her. The shooter makes a U-turn and comes
00:07:52
back around to Gloria's truck. He pulls his truck alongside so that his driver's side window is now [music] next
00:08:00
to hers. And this time he does not bother to get out of his car, Greer says. And he rolls his window down five
00:08:08
more shots just to make sure. Nine wasn't enough. Five more. Then after he's finished that, he
00:08:14
immediately takes off. After firing 14 shots and hitting Gloria at least 10 times, prosecutors say the
00:08:22
shooter disappears into the night. The first big break in the case came from one of the first officers at the
00:08:31
crime scene. One of the officers, she notices this lanyard that's on Gloria and then she
00:08:37
sees her name and that hits her hard. Gloria's lanyard was from a nearby Holiday Inn where she was the manager.
00:08:45
Just days earlier, that officer took a report from Gloria after she called 911. Gloria said her ex-boyfriend [music] had
00:08:54
been following and harassing her. And now they had a name, Billy Rickman. And >> [music]
00:09:01
>> that becomes a lead to understanding what happened. Greer says a detective subpoenaed
00:09:08
Rickman's phone records. Even without having his phone, police were able to read his text messages.
00:09:15
At one point, he says [music] where he is. And it's the Home Motel. The detective rushed to the motel, which
00:09:23
is a 6-minute drive from the murder scene. Greer says the desk clerk told the detective that days earlier, Rickman
00:09:30
attempted to sign in with a fake name, but the clerk insisted on proof of identity.
00:09:36
We have him on surveillance video [music] getting back to the motel. That was after the shooting, says
00:09:43
prosecutor Corrine Schneff. He appears in a hurry. He gets out of his vehicle and he immediately starts
00:09:50
wiping down the side of the vehicle that might have any kind of evidence of gunpowder residue.
00:09:56
You can see him on the phone. He's contacting people. She says investigators began checking
00:10:05
surveillance from several businesses in the area. And got another break at a nearby car
00:10:11
rental business. This picture is [music] very clear. Enterprise had great video.
00:10:19
Here there's no denying who that is looking at that, yeah. Rickman rented a Chevy Colorado using
00:10:25
his real name. It is the same vehicle in the motel video and the same vehicle police believe Rickman used to run
00:10:33
Gloria off the road. The Lakewood police put out an alert for Billy Rickman, but
00:10:39
in the days that followed he was nowhere to be found. >> [music] >> She was a part of my family. My whole
00:11:03
family knew her and they loved her. With Billy Rickman on the run, police questioned Gloria's friend Breanna
00:11:09
Eberly >> [music] >> about Rickman's relationship with Gloria. Breanna had known Gloria since 2018 when
00:11:17
she hired her to help out at the Oyo Hotel which was owned by Gloria's parents. She wanted to please her parents [music]
00:11:25
to the best of her ability. She was their lifeline. She did it all and she She it all
00:11:30
[music] with grace. Absolute grace. Gloria was the single mother of a 7-year-old. It's all about her kid. She
00:11:38
was very fierce when it came to her son. [music] And in May 2021, Billy Rickman [music]
00:11:45
checked into the hotel from California. A mystery man with a larger-than-life personality.
00:11:52
Breanna says it didn't take long for Rickman to notice Gloria. Gloria was coming into the office. He
00:12:00
walked up >> [music] >> and introduced himself. And he's like, "You're very pretty."
00:12:05
And she goes, "Well, thank you." She walked away and he's like, "Who's that?" And I'm like, "Her name's Gloria.
00:12:11
Stay away." But Rickman did not stay away. And before long, the two were texting a lot.
00:12:20
She liked [music] the way he talked to her and the things he said to her. All she wanted to do was be [music]
00:12:26
loved by somebody. And Rickman made it seem like he could be that guy, says Megan Driscoll, the
00:12:32
Choi family's lawyer. [music] He really came across as this nice guy. Love bombed her, meaning he's giving her
00:12:40
gifts and kind of showering her with kindness. Weeks after meeting her, Rickman sent
00:12:46
Gloria this text. "You're the light to my day every day. You make me feel so sexy and special and
00:12:54
I thank you for that. I want you. I want to be with you, Gloria Choi. I can't wait to see what life has in store for
00:13:01
us. My heart is yours." How was he with her son? Gloria's friend, Jacob Blue. What she
00:13:10
liked about Rickman is that he had a lot of masculine energy that he was showing
00:13:14
up. Billy and her son had a very instant connection cuz he was like a kid himself, you know?
00:13:22
>> [music] >> Within weeks, Gloria and Rickman became a couple and he began staying in her
00:13:27
apartment at the Oyo Hotel. Breanna says Gloria's [music] father did not approve
00:13:32
of the relationship. I mean, her parents basically drew a red line and said he can't be staying here
00:13:38
at the hotel anymore. Gloria's father wanted him to move out. And >> [music] >> Rickman went and approached her parents
00:13:47
and told them he's not going anywhere, and that Gloria is now his, [music] and if they don't like it, they can
00:13:54
leave. Wow. Her dad basically gave her an ultimatum. Mhm. She could stay on as the manager, or she could leave.
00:14:06
And she chose to leave. Gloria, her son, and Rickman moved to an apartment [music]
00:14:13
in the town of Tumwater in September 2021. And her heartbroken parents >> [music]
00:14:19
>> chose to sell their hotel. That's when Gloria took a new job as manager of the Holiday Inn Express in
00:14:29
[music] Lakewood, right next to Tacoma. She was still very happy with what she had.
00:14:36
But it didn't last long, that happiness. [music] Gloria told Breanna that Rickman had big
00:14:41
dreams, but no way of making them come true. And Gloria's [music] like, "Well, who's going to fund all of this? You're
00:14:49
not. You don't have a job. Get a job, you know?" And he refused. So, was he asking her for money?
00:14:57
>> Oh, yeah. He drained her. She bought everything. Within weeks, Gloria [music] saw a
00:15:05
different side of Rickman. She told Breanna he was often mean, angry, and insecure. Gloria also told Breanna that
00:15:13
Rickman was drinking to excess and using cocaine and marijuana. And what did you tell her? Uh, leave.
00:15:22
run away. Gloria chose to stay with Rickman, but 2 months later, in November, Jacob says he
00:15:30
got a troubling call. She did express that he would become physical with her, push her around,
00:15:36
throw her around, and that she didn't feel safe just breaking things off with him.
00:15:42
>> [music] >> Jacob told Gloria she needed to leave him immediately, but Gloria said she was
00:15:49
afraid that might trigger something inside Rickman. She didn't know how she was going to
00:15:55
leave Billy. She was scared to leave him. What scared her? Possessiveness. He knew everywhere she went.
00:16:03
>> She felt that he was tracking her every move. She found a tag in her car. An AirTag?
00:16:11
>> Mhm. She's the one that told me about it later on. And Gloria [music] suspected there were
00:16:18
other hidden Apple AirTags in her truck. Are you concerned for your friend at this point? [music]
00:16:24
>> Absolutely. In November 2021, just 6 months after they met, Briana says Gloria made up her
00:16:31
mind to leave Rickman. She looked at me >> [music] >> dead in the face and said I'm leaving.
00:16:37
And I asked her, you know, what's your plan? She goes, I'm going to go to my parents.
00:16:42
Her parents welcomed Gloria and her son into their home. >> [music] >> But it was not so easy to get rid of
00:16:52
Rickman. He had borrowed Gloria's truck and refused to give it back. So, on November 28th, Gloria went to the
00:17:01
Tumwater police to file a report about the truck. And while she was there, she told the officer taking the report about
00:17:08
Rickman. When Billy is sober, he is calm, but when he drinks, he has a short fuse and
00:17:15
is very angry. >> [music] >> I wish him well, but choosing to not be a part of his life anymore for the
00:17:21
safety and stability for my son and I. Attorney Megan Driscoll, who represents the Troy family, said it was clear the
00:17:30
Tumwater officer believed Gloria was at risk. The officer reported that Rickman was potentially tracking Gloria with
00:17:38
Apple AirTags, owned numerous firearms, and appeared to be extremely manipulative.
00:17:45
He actually becomes really concerned for her and her safety. So, the officer actually tells Gloria and tells the
00:17:52
court to issue a domestic violence no contact order. Almost immediately, Rickman was arrested
00:17:59
for taking Gloria's truck, and he agreed to this recorded interview. It's both of our cars. Like, we live
00:18:06
together. It's not like I'm a neighbor or something. What do you think her opinion is of you when you drink? She
00:18:11
doesn't like it. Do you think like maybe she might feel like uncomfortable or scared? I'll tell you this much.
00:18:18
If I had a shot with my girl again, man, I would never drink another drop of alcohol. That's the honest-to-god truth.
00:18:25
Rickman was jailed for 3 days for taking Gloria's truck, and on December 1st, 2021, [music]
00:18:32
he was brought before a judge who slapped him with a strict no contact order. But Breanna says the order did not phase
00:18:40
Rickman. The day he got out of jail, he told Breanna he was unconcerned with the
00:18:46
legalities. [music] He didn't care. He was like, "So? I'm still going to talk to her."
00:19:11
In early December 2021, Gloria Choi was back living with her parents, hoping she
00:19:17
had rid herself of Billy Rickman once and for all. But Breanna said Rickman had other ideas, as he told her the day
00:19:24
he got out of jail for taking Gloria's truck, which had been returned to her. Billy showed [music] up at my place and
00:19:32
he's like, "I need your help." And he begged me to talk to her about [music] getting back together. He said
00:19:39
that he would change. He, you know, would stop drinking. He would be a better [music] person to her.
00:19:45
And in the back of my mind, I'm like, "No." You didn't believe [music] him then. I
00:19:48
didn't. >> And what's your understanding of a no contact order? No contact order means
00:19:53
you can't come in contact with that person. Text, phone calls, physical location, anything of that sort. And if
00:20:00
you do, what happens? >> to jail. Breanna told Rickman that he'd be arrested if he broke any of those
00:20:07
conditions. But 2 weeks later, she got a call from a friend telling her Gloria was hiding from Rickman in the bathroom
00:20:14
of this coffee shop. Breanna wasted no time getting there. As I was pulling in, I saw
00:20:23
Billy Rickman's car was parked over there. We made eye contact. I went to the bathroom and knocked on
00:20:31
the door and she opened it. She knew that Billy was here. It [snorts] was another reminder to Gloria that Rickman
00:20:38
seemed to be tracking her every move. And you said she was very emotional inside, locked into the bathroom.
00:20:45
>> petrified. She was crying. She was shaking. She refused to come out until she knew he was gone.
00:20:52
It's not clear if police were ever called. 3 days later, Breanna said that Gloria
00:21:00
told her that Rickman confronted her in the Capital Mall while she was shopping with her son. Breanna said Gloria told
00:21:08
her that Rickman pleaded with her to [music] drop the no contact order. But she refused.
00:21:15
He was putting himself in her path so that he could rekindle the lost relationship. That lost relationship,
00:21:22
says prosecutor Corrine Schneff, was on Rickman's mind when he made these cell phone videos directed at Gloria. You can
00:21:29
see the videos that he created to try and make her feel bad about leaving him. This is what Christmas alone looks like,
00:21:38
a parking lot at a hotel cuz you ain't got nowhere to go cuz you know your girl put you out in the street.
00:21:44
Prosecutors say everything came to a head on the last two days of 2021. It started on December 30th when Rickman
00:21:54
sent Gloria an email after he spotted her with Jacob Blue at a coffee shop. And I guess Rickman did write an email
00:22:01
to Gloria that read, >> [music] >> "You left me for another guy." Wow. Correct. The email was sent in real time and
00:22:09
Gloria began getting calls from a blocked number. When she answered, Rickman was on the line yelling at her
00:22:16
according to Jacob. He believed that this Jacob Blue was a, you know, potential boyfriend.
00:22:23
They moved on to a sushi restaurant, but Gloria was becoming increasingly bothered by the headlights of a car
00:22:29
which were pointed at the restaurant. And Jacob says Gloria believed Rickman was behind the wheel. She [music] says,
00:22:36
"I know that car and I know that it's watching us right now." And she got really uncomfortable. Jacob
00:22:43
says they left the restaurant and discovered [music] someone had stolen their computers from Gloria's truck.
00:22:50
They also discovered one of her truck's tires was slashed. Gloria called the police and asked for
00:22:56
their help. It was the first of four calls about Rickman over a 48-hour period. And what did he damage? Um my
00:23:06
front driver's side tire and he went through all the stuff in the truck and stole my backpack with my laptop and my
00:23:14
friend's laptop bag as well. Okay, I'll have an officer call you. And did Gloria express that she thought it
00:23:20
was Rickman? She was confident it was Rickman. Gloria told police that only Rickman
00:23:26
knew the truck's keypad code to gain entry. She gave them a description of his black BMW and told the officer about
00:23:34
the [music] no contact order. The officer said he left Rickman a voicemail message letting him know the police
00:23:41
wanted to speak with him. Gloria and Jacob then drove to the Holiday Inn to retrieve Jacob's Jeep and
00:23:48
that's when Jacob discovered that two of his tires had been slashed. This is a snowy night. There's snow on the ground.
00:23:56
Gloria took this cell phone video following the footsteps she thought were Rickman's.
00:24:03
is his footsteps. Because Gloria managed that Holiday Inn, she was able to get the surveillance
00:24:12
footage. These videos have never been seen by the public before now. We see a man come in and sneaking through the
00:24:21
shadows. He comes up to my Jeep and he punctures both my tires and and walks off. They called police a second time
00:24:30
and gave them the video. Both Jacob and Gloria identified the man as Billy Rickman by his distinctive walk but
00:24:38
officers said the video was not clear enough to make an arrest. And the police were like, "I'm sorry, without us being
00:24:44
able to see his face, there's really not a whole lot to go off of. Not much we can do."
00:24:51
The next day was December 31st, New Year's Eve. Jacob returned to his Jeep with two new tires. That's when he and
00:24:59
Gloria discovered the other two tires were now slashed. That prompted a third call to 911. What are you reporting?
00:25:08
Um vandalism on my vehicle by a stalker. Once again, the surveillance footage showed the man Jacob and Gloria believed
00:25:18
was Rickman slashing the tires. But police again said the video was not clear [music] enough for them to make an
00:25:26
identification. Then on New Year's Eve, there was a fourth call to 911. This time by the
00:25:34
desk clerk at the Holiday Inn. He spotted the tire slasher again puncturing the tires on Jacob's Jeep.
00:25:42
The desk clerk chased after him recording this video at the same time he was calling 911. His vehicle is licensed
00:25:51
plate 12. He's driving a Chevy Colorado. He's got one light out. Police say Rickman was driving that same
00:25:58
Chevy Colorado when he ran Gloria off the road, murdered her, then escaped into the night.
00:26:18
Billy Rickman was able to elude police for 4 days until January [music] 6th, 2022.
00:26:26
That's when prosecutor Greg Greer says law enforcement tracked his phone to Humboldt County in Northern California,
00:26:32
[music] where Rickman turned up drunk at a relative's house. This relative did not
00:26:38
want Mr. Rickman staying with him. This relative offered to take Mr. [music] Rickman to a a nearby casino and put him
00:26:46
up in at the casino in a hotel. Rickman's relative driving his black BMW was stopped by tribal police and they
00:26:55
contacted the California Highway Patrol who rushed to the scene. Police say Rickman, as seen in this dashcam video,
00:27:03
shoved his relative out of the driver's seat and onto the pavement, gunned the engine, and took off. He's got enough of
00:27:11
a head start and they actually don't find him. They they lose him. Rickman wandered around in the darkness
00:27:18
for about 5 hours on the wet, cold night before being [music] found and taken into custody.
00:27:24
Mr. Rickman was soaking wet, freezing cold, hypothermic. Rickman [snorts] was charged with
00:27:31
aggravated first-degree murder and pleaded not guilty. Some 250 miles south, a woman who says
00:27:40
she knew firsthand just how dangerous Rickman was received a phone call. The officer from the Oakland Police
00:27:47
Department called me and when I answered the phone, she told me, "Billy has been
00:27:51
arrested." This is Aja Hull who had filed a police report about Rickman. She says Rickman
00:27:58
forced [music] her into prostitution and sexually assaulted her when she was a 14-year-old runaway living in Oakland in
00:28:05
2005. >> [music] >> I'm a survivor of human trafficking and Billy Rickman was my trafficker.
00:28:12
Aja says she endured years of abuse before she nearly was killed [music] after Rickman choked her with a strand
00:28:19
of Christmas tree lights. Like I could not breathe. Like it was very scary. >> [music]
00:28:25
>> I was terrified. She escaped to San Francisco. It was one of the best moments of my life, but also one of
00:28:33
the most terrifying because I [music] felt free, but I also felt so much fear because I had crossed him
00:28:41
and I knew what he was capable of. Shortly after leaving, Aja called a girlfriend who was living with Rickman.
00:28:48
He took the phone out of her hand when I called her to check on her once and [music] said, "Bitch, if I ever find
00:28:53
you, I will kill you." And I knew that he meant it. I never ever saw that as a threat. Like I saw that as a promise
00:28:59
[music] because he would he would kill me. He was livid. Aja says she always wanted justice, but it was only while
00:29:07
completing her education and pursuing a master's degree in public affairs from the University of California at Berkeley
00:29:13
that she found the courage [music] to file that report with the Oakland police. It detailed multiple alleged
00:29:20
incidents of Rickman's abuse including hitting her with closed fists on the face and body and causing her to sustain
00:29:28
a black eye, bruises, and cuts to the face. I wanted him held accountable for what
00:29:33
he did. Oakland police put out an arrest warrant for Rickman in 2021 in Alameda County,
00:29:40
but by that time he had left California. Washington state prosecutors say they never saw the warrant. I was angry and
00:29:48
upset because he could have been stopped beforehand. I blame myself in some kind
00:29:54
of way. But Aja still wanted to help. She emailed the prosecutors working on the
00:30:00
Gloria Choy murder and offered to give them information about Rickman. The prosecutors demurred saying they wanted
00:30:07
to keep their case focused on Gloria's murder. That wasn't really part of our case, so we didn't follow up on that
00:30:16
particular element. Rickman's trial for the murder of Gloria Choy began in November 2023
00:30:24
>> [music] >> before a jury of nine men and three women. Gloria's family were too
00:30:29
devastated to attend the trial. Uh they moved out of town without a word. And we didn't get to say goodbye, but I
00:30:40
understood [music] why. Prosecutor Greer wanted the jury to understand why as well. So, he played
00:30:47
Gloria's 911 call in its entirety right after the opening statements. 911, what's the location, ma'am? Sir?
00:30:59
I don't know where I am, but I think my boyfriend's following me. You could tell
00:31:03
the whole courtroom was, you know, different while that was being played. The prosecution methodically laid out
00:31:13
its case to the jury with all the audio and video evidence they'd collected. >> [music]
00:31:18
>> What you're about to see is a compilation of information from the defendant's cell phone as well [music]
00:31:26
as surveillance videos that we have at the various locations. What you're going to see first is some GPS [music]
00:31:32
coordinates. Schnepf says Rickman could no longer follow Gloria after he slashed
00:31:37
Gloria's tires [music] and put her truck with those air tags out of commission. As soon as he slashed the tires on
00:31:44
Gloria's vehicle, he could no longer track her. Rickman was forced to more or less guess
00:31:50
where Gloria was. And in the days that followed, Schnepf says he spent a lot of time sitting outside her parents' house
00:31:57
where she was living. So, all of this is breaking this no contact order, right? >> Yeah, he probably every letter of the
00:32:05
the no contact [music] order he violated. He's just constantly going back to her house.
00:32:10
>> [music] >> Is she there? Is she at her house? It's crazy to see this like this.
00:32:16
Sometime around 6:00 p.m. on January 2nd, the night of Gloria's murder, Schnepf says Rickman turned off his cell
00:32:24
phone and didn't turn it back on until he was at the Home Motel immediately after the murder.
00:32:30
The fact that he doesn't turn his phone off except for at the time point of the murder helps us to show that it was him.
00:32:40
To buttress their case, prosecutors put Breanna Aberly on the stand. I remember looking over at him, seeing him look at
00:32:49
her picture. He started to cry. And I remember it made me so angry. >> [music] >> I had never felt so furious in my life.
00:33:02
Billy didn't just take Gloria's >> [music] >> physical life. Billy took everything.
00:33:08
Took a daughter, a mother, a friend, a sister, a cousin. He He took it all in a blink of an eye with [music] no
00:33:21
no regard. The loss of Gloria Choy weighed heavily on Greg Greer as the prosecution ended.
00:33:31
He knew this was going to be the last case of his career. He was surveilling. He was stalking. [music]
00:33:37
He was hunting that night. >> Absolutely. And Greg Greer was confident he'd proven that to the jury.
00:33:54
When it was time to present Billy Rickman's defense, his lawyer did not call any witnesses and did not put
00:34:01
Rickman on the stand. He argued in his closing that investigators failed to look at any other possible suspects,
00:34:09
said prosecutor Greg Greer. The defense tried to make [clears throat] a case that
00:34:15
somebody else did it. Rickman's defense attorney told jurors that the police investigation was
00:34:22
incomplete because Gloria never named Rickman on her 911 call and instead described the person who hit her car
00:34:30
only as her boyfriend. >> I think my boyfriend's following me and he just hit my car.
00:34:37
The trial [music] lasted two weeks. It only took the jury about two hours to reach their verdict, [music]
00:34:43
guilty of aggravated murder. Rickman was sentenced to life in prison without the
00:34:49
possibility of parole. Law enforcement [music] didn't take any steps to locate or arrest Rickman in the
00:34:56
days before Gloria's death. Gloria's parents believe Gloria should still be alive, says Megan Driscoll. She has
00:35:04
filed a wrongful death suit on behalf of Gloria's son against the city of Lakewood and its police department. They
00:35:11
wanted accountability for what happened to their daughter and their sister and their loved one.
00:35:17
And they believed that it was mismanaged and mishandled [music] by law enforcement.
00:35:22
>> [snorts] >> This woman was deprived of justice and should not have been killed. Driscoll
00:35:29
says one of the ironies of the case is that the prosecution used Rickman's egregious stalking as evidence to help
00:35:37
them secure the homicide conviction. So that very same evidence that was presented in the homicide trial, you're
00:35:43
now using it wrongful death lawsuit [music] to show what you believe is the Lakewood police
00:35:50
not doing their jobs. Right. I mean, this death was >> [music] >> incredibly foreseeable and we know that
00:35:58
from the prosecution, we know that the jury convicted him. This wasn't a mystery of who did this or why.
00:36:05
Um it was as foreseeable as it was preventable. You're focused on Lakewood police and what they did and did not do.
00:36:14
So outline for us what should they have done? Plain and simple. Plain and simple,
00:36:20
Lakewood PD should have found Rickman and arrested him to protect Gloria. My name is Russ Hicks. I'm a retired law
00:36:35
enforcement [music] officer. I was a lead instructor for domestic violence for many years.
00:36:40
Russ Hicks was hired by Driscoll as an expert witness, in part because [music] he has a special connection to the case.
00:36:48
So, I know they received the proper training because I was their instructor [music] at the police academy.
00:36:53
And I I taught the three officers that were involved in this case. And Hicks says those officers failed
00:36:59
Gloria. One example, one of the Lakewood officers says he left a voicemail for Rickman, which Hicks considers a
00:37:07
mistake. I think it conveys a message that we're not taking this seriously and we're not looking for you. Just saying
00:37:13
that we'd like to talk to you. And the sad irony of it is when you call a domestic violence perpetrator like
00:37:20
Rickman, that actually just escalates [music] the danger to the victim even more.
00:37:25
That officer says he drove around looking for Rickman's BMW. But Driscoll says there is no police
00:37:31
record of that. Driscoll also says Gloria told the officer she believed Rickman was staying at a nearby motel.
00:37:39
>> [music] >> And as it turned out, the Home Motel is only a 6-minute walk from the Holiday
00:37:44
Inn. It would have been so easy to find him cuz he was there to be found. Driscoll also says [music] officers
00:37:53
failed Gloria by not following up description of the truck Rickman [music] was driving
00:38:00
given to them by the desk clerk at the Holiday Inn. He's driving a Chevy Colorado. He's got
00:38:05
one light out. In normal law enforcement practice, they should send out a bolo or be on the
00:38:10
lookout saying, "This is a beige Chevy Colorado, broken tail lights. Look for this [snorts] guy." They didn't do that.
00:38:17
He was half a block away. Some 48 hours before her murder, Driscoll says Gloria gave one of the
00:38:25
officers a comprehensive [music] seven-page document. In it, Gloria details the many times she said Rickman
00:38:32
violated the no-contact order. His emails, his calls, and a still frame from one of the holiday end videos.
00:38:41
Even with that report in hand, Driscoll says police took no action. They had everything they needed and more
00:38:49
to arrest him. In addressing the Troy family's wrongful death lawsuit, a city lawyer told a
00:38:56
judge in January 2025, the police have no obligation to go and arrest someone like Rickman if he is not
00:39:04
at the scene. At that hearing, the judge asked the city's lawyer, "A police officer could still sit back
00:39:13
and do nothing in response to a complaint by a domestic violence victim because there's no duty to look for the
00:39:19
abuser?" The city's lawyer answered, "That's correct." John Justice, the attorney representing
00:39:26
the city and the Lakewood Police Department, said he could not comment on pending litigation.
00:39:39
Tell me a little bit about how she changed your life. She always reminded me that I was a good
00:39:44
person, no matter what, >> [music] >> and that I was a good mom, cuz I doubted myself a lot.
00:39:52
And she reminded me every day that I was good. How much did that change [music] you in your self-worth?
00:39:59
So much. More than I could probably describe. It gave me [music] hope. Prosecutor Greg Greer [music] retired in
00:40:11
2024. He's still trying to, in his words, find his [music] way back to humanity, and
00:40:19
forget the violence that surrounded him for so many years. But, he's still haunted by Gloria's
00:40:25
[music] last words on that 911 call. I did learn the Korean language while I was in in the Air Force, and I could
00:40:33
hear very clearly [music] Gloria calling for her mother. And what is the word that you hear? It's
00:40:39
"Uma. Oma." Um >> [music] >> and she's just frantically desperation calling for her mother.
00:40:47
Tells you a lot about human nature, and yeah, it's one of the saddest things you'll ever hear.
00:41:11
>> [music] [music] >> Welcome back to Post Mortem. I'm your host 48 Hours correspondent Anne-Marie
00:42:02
Green, and today we are discussing the case of Gloria Choi, who was shot in her car after being forced off the road by
00:42:10
another vehicle in Lakewood, Washington. Now, Gloria alleged that her ex-boyfriend, Billy Rickman, was
00:42:16
stalking and harassing her. And in a 48-hour period, 2 days before she was murdered, law enforcement was contacted
00:42:24
four separate times about Rickman's escalating behavior. And Gloria's family believes the justice system failed her.
00:42:32
So, joining me today is 48 Hours correspondent Natalie Morales, who reported on this case. Natalie, it's
00:42:38
good to speak with you again. Good to be back with you, Anne-Marie. And you know,
00:42:41
I think Gloria Choi's story is sadly a cautionary tale. I think a lot of people can relate to, you know, falling in love
00:42:49
with the wrong person sometimes. But from what we know, Gloria did everything she could once she realized this
00:42:55
relationship was not good for her. She tried to end it, and she thought that the police and that the law would
00:43:02
protect her. Unfortunately, as you know, that was not the case in this tragedy. Yeah, but I think there are a lot of
00:43:08
lessons to be learned here. Um, so we will get into this. I want to remind everyone, if you haven't watched or
00:43:14
listened to this episode, it's called The Love Bombing of Gloria Choi. Go check it out right now, and then come on
00:43:19
back for our conversation. So, Natalie, in watching the hour, I felt I got a real sense of just how hard
00:43:28
working, how beloved Gloria Choi was by her family, by her friends. Um, you know, she had this great career in the
00:43:36
family business, running these hotels. She was really devoted to her son. It is hard to be a single parent. Um, and so
00:43:43
I'm always impressed uh when I hear about single parents succeeding. And in May of 2021, she meets Billy
00:43:50
Rickman, who is staying at the hotel that she's managing. He has this larger-than-life personality, and
00:43:57
immediately introduces himself to her. But what was it about Rickman that she was attracted to? Well, I think it was
00:44:05
that lifestyle of hers. As you said, she was a busy single mom, she worked really
00:44:10
hard, she didn't have a lot of time to date. You saw her friend and her co-worker Breanna in our hour and and
00:44:16
she said that Rickman talked a big game, seemed to say all the things that Gloria
00:44:21
wanted to hear. He was also very proud to have her as his girlfriend, he paid a lot of attention to her and he had
00:44:28
formed this bond with her son. You know, we saw some of those texts and those exchanges where Rickman is professing
00:44:35
his love and they're so over the top, you know, I want you, I can't wait to see what life has in store for us, my
00:44:40
heart is yours. The Choi family attorney, Megan Driscoll, says Gloria was basically love bombed, that over the
00:44:48
top expression uh of love. Definitely, um I think probably a lot of people have experienced love bombing and you know,
00:44:56
it feels wonderful, but there's always sort of a little bit of an edge where you're like, "Geez, we
00:45:02
just we just met." I mean, but if they do it well and obviously he did, it's you can get lured in by it. Within
00:45:10
weeks, right? Gloria and Rickman, they became a couple. But he began staying at the Oyo hotel
00:45:16
cuz she stays there and works there. Gloria's parents do not approve of this relationship, they want Rickman out and
00:45:23
so they say to her, "Listen, you know, you can stay at the hotel and be the manager or you can leave." And she
00:45:28
chooses to leave with him. In September 2021, Gloria moved to a new apartment with Rickman and her son and took a new
00:45:36
job as a manager at the Holiday Inn Express. But it wasn't long after that that Gloria really started to realize
00:45:43
that Rickman was not the guy that he was making himself out to be. Right, yeah, according to Gloria's
00:45:50
friend Breanna, Gloria told her Rickman was often mean, he was showing his angry
00:45:57
side, he started to drink in excess and was using drugs. But when it came down to it, you know, how was he making
00:46:05
money? It really, according to Breanna, was Gloria that was providing for him. And And Gloria told her that Rickman
00:46:13
just refused to get a job. >> Mhm. Now, Gloria also, I think, suspected that Rickman was tracking her.
00:46:21
And she told Breanna she found an Apple AirTag in her truck. She said that she feared he'd hidden more there in in
00:46:28
order to be able to track her. And you know, that became more obvious when she moved out and tried to rid herself of
00:46:35
him. Mhm. Um well, there's a theme here when we talk about living off a woman. Um
00:46:43
you introduce us to a woman named Aja who said that Rickman sex trafficked her when she was a 14-year-old runaway in
00:46:50
California. Can you share any more details what we learned about Rickman's past? Yeah, it's
00:46:56
interesting because according to the prosecutors, Rickman, he did have some convictions for drug and firearms
00:47:03
offenses in California. But it was when he was in California and in Oakland in particular that he met Aja Hual. Now,
00:47:11
according to Aja, she met Rickman when she was just 14 years old. Rickman was in his 30s, so huge age difference
00:47:17
there. But Aja told us that when she met him, he knew that she was being trafficked, but by somebody else. He
00:47:24
seemed as if he wanted to get her away from her trafficker, but he ends up becoming her trafficker. And And it
00:47:31
really, you know, Aja's story is is so remarkable in the hour because even though she missed a lot of high school,
00:47:38
she managed to go back and get her GED when she was 17 years old. She went on, got her master's degree from UC
00:47:45
Berkeley, um from the public affairs school, the Goldman School. And she's now working as
00:47:50
a consultant. So, she is such a success story. >> She really is. Like that is truly
00:47:57
inspiring. And to think like she had gone through all of this and, you know, transformed her life. Meanwhile, Rickman
00:48:05
clearly hasn't changed his ways at all, but, you know, Gloria figures this out. It takes about 6 months after meeting
00:48:13
Rickman and she ends the relationship. She moves back in with her parents, but Rickman refuses to return her truck,
00:48:19
which she had borrowed. So, she reports him to the police. In that first incident, the officer
00:48:25
responds very quickly. Rickman is arrested. He is thrown in jail for a couple of days before judge then slaps
00:48:33
him with a very strict no contact order. But after his release, Rickman continues
00:48:38
to harass her. And it it seems like after that, the police response sort of slows. It's it's much weaker. Why? Well,
00:48:46
this is a case of two different police departments at the time. You know, there was the city of Tumwater Police
00:48:52
Department and Lakewood. And so, Gloria and Rickman, where they were living was Tumwater and that's where, you know,
00:48:59
Gloria reported that Rickman refused to give back her truck. It was the Tumwater
00:49:04
police officer who recognized that Rickman seemed to be a danger to Gloria and so, he asked the judge to issue a
00:49:13
domestic violence no contact order. Gloria then moved. She switched jobs to the Holiday Inn Express. That happened
00:49:20
to be in Lakewood, where a lot of those other incidents happened. For example, when she was meeting with her friend
00:49:26
Jacob and her car was broken into and the laptops were stolen, she reported that to Lakewood police. And Gloria said
00:49:33
that she suspected it was Rickman because when she was meeting with Jacob, she got this email instantly from
00:49:40
Rickman that said, "You left me for another guy." And, you know, the Lakewood officer said he was going to
00:49:47
call Rickman. He said he left a voicemail saying police wanted to speak with him. Gloria and her friend Jacob
00:49:53
Blue, they go back to the Holiday Inn Express and they see, you know, Jacob's car now they discover his car tires had
00:50:02
been slashed as well. They called Lakewood police again and because she worked at the hotel, she was able to
00:50:09
show the responding officers surveillance footage and it showed, you know, the shadowy figure of a guy
00:50:15
apparently slashing the tires, but because the surveillance footage was a little bit grainy and you couldn't make
00:50:21
out his face very clearly, Lakewood police said it was too unclear. They couldn't see him and they couldn't
00:50:27
identify, in fact, that it was Rickman. Now, all of these instances are examples
00:50:33
that Megan Driscoll, the Troy family attorney, says were clear violations of the no contact order. In fact, Driscoll
00:50:40
says Gloria would eventually give Lakewood police a seven-page document that listed all the ways she said
00:50:47
Rickman violated the no contact order. Here's the thing about it, too, is experts will always tell domestic
00:50:53
violence victims to document everything and here Gloria is writing it down. She's basically taking the investigation
00:51:02
into her own hands. What else did she note in this document? This is an important lesson that we can
00:51:09
all take away from this story. I mean, she really did document everything in that seven-page list including
00:51:17
screenshots with text messages, numerous missed calls that she kept getting from
00:51:22
his friends, from blocked numbers or numbers that were not identifiable. And and by the way, according to Megan
00:51:30
Driscoll, that seven-page document, the prosecutors never even saw it because it
00:51:35
was found later in a sealed envelope in a police file. Prosecutor Greg Greer said he had never even seen it. It
00:51:43
wasn't opened or found until after the homicide conviction. So, I thought this was really interesting in the hour. 48
00:51:50
Hours spoke to Russ Hicks. He's an expert hired by the family's attorney who worked as an instructor at the
00:51:56
police academy and taught the three Lakewood officers that were involved in this case. I absolutely thought he was
00:52:03
going to defend them. Mhm. And then he did not. He was surprised to learn that the officers did not seem to follow the
00:52:12
training, the very training and guidelines that he gave them. I want to play a clip from that interview. The
00:52:18
training specifically states that they should recognize escalating behavior. And this was escalating because there
00:52:24
were four incidents in a 48-hour period. So, having that he's armed with a deadly
00:52:28
weapon, that he's slashing tires repeatedly in the same location, and that nothing's being done, they
00:52:34
should have recognized that this is is a pattern of escalating behavior, and they should have intervened. Meghan
00:52:40
Driscoll told us this was sadly as foreseeable a tragedy as as it could possibly be.
00:52:48
Um we should point out the Lakewood Police Department said they couldn't really identify Billy Rickman as the man
00:52:55
slashing the tires and walking away. Um but Russ Hicks said the official training says that in domestic violence
00:53:04
cases, you know, they generally do escalate in nature and the official response is always protect the victim.
00:53:13
So, he does not believe, you know, that the procedures were followed. And while one officer said he drove around and he
00:53:22
was looking for Rickman's car, there apparently was no record of that and there didn't seem to be more of an
00:53:30
attempt to find him. So, then I'm wondering what Hicks recommends that the officers should have
00:53:37
done differently. Well, Russ Hicks says the one thing that the police absolutely
00:53:42
failed on was that in a situation like this, you put out a bolo alert, be on the lookout. In this case, they knew
00:53:51
what kind of vehicle Rickman was driving at the time. Also, Russ Hicks points out, you know, the officer who
00:53:58
reportedly said he left a voicemail for Rickman, he said that is the last thing a police officer should be doing because
00:54:06
that actually can escalate the situation further into domestic violence cases. And Hicks also pointed out that police
00:54:13
didn't even show up in person when Gloria called 911 to report the tire slashing. Um, he said, again, the number
00:54:21
one priority is to show up, secure the scene. You cannot do that by phone. But, in its defense, the Lakewood Police
00:54:29
Department said nobody witnessed Rickman directly commit these acts. No witness was able to provide a location for
00:54:37
Rickman. So, they say probable cause was not established. Welcome back. So, on January 2nd, 2022, the evening of
00:54:49
Gloria's murder, she calls 911 again after she is forced off the road by a pickup truck while driving home.
00:54:57
You played that 911 call in the hour, some of it. Um, and I have to say, from what we heard, it was painful to listen
00:55:05
to. She is clearly terrified. And and we couldn't even play that much of it because it is way too disturbing and
00:55:12
graphic. You're hearing Gloria Choy, her last moments alive, and she was terrified.
00:55:20
And it was played in full to a stunned jury. And in the course of that 911 call, you hear the 14 shots fired. You
00:55:31
hear her screaming through several of those first shots because we know she didn't die instantly and she was
00:55:38
suffering. Prosecutor Greg Riordan spoke Korean because he served in the Air Force and he says on that 911 call her
00:55:46
last words are Oma Oma or Uma and that is the word for mother mom in Korean which just breaks your heart and one
00:55:56
other thing her young son had just turned eight the day before. She in fact was on her way home at the time because
00:56:06
you know he wanted to eat with his mother and he wouldn't eat without her and that's where she was going when
00:56:11
Rickman pinned her car and then killed her. >> And it sort of reinforces the connection
00:56:18
that we learned that she has with her family how important family was that it is her mother that she cries out for
00:56:23
it's her son that she's going home to see and these are people that Rickman would have known. He would have lived
00:56:29
with her and her son. So after Billy Rickman though kills Gloria he seems to just sort of disappear into the night.
00:56:35
How was he able to evade police for several days? You know Rickman had a support system
00:56:42
and the people who helped him they actually testified at the trial. However, they were not charged.
00:56:48
Prosecutors believe a friend in fact armed him gave him a gun a couple days before he then went and killed Gloria
00:56:57
and prosecutors say Rickman then went to a couple of friends homes including one
00:57:03
who had been storing his black BMW which he then used to flee and escape to California and he was on the run for
00:57:11
four days and then Rickman drives to Northern California Humboldt County goes to a relative's house. His relative
00:57:18
offered to drive him to hotel to put him up there but the FBI had already alerted law enforcement in
00:57:24
that area to be on the lookout. They did put a bolo out this time. Tribal police
00:57:29
then stopped them saying that they ran a stop sign and that's when Rickman pushes his relative out of the
00:57:36
car as you saw in the hour and then takes off and continues for another 5 hours to evade police until finally he
00:57:45
is caught. How did they eventually track him down? That's an interesting story because and we didn't have time to
00:57:51
really include that in the hour. They did find his abandoned car and they did search with dogs in the area where they
00:57:58
believed he he went on the run. It's very rural though and they [snorts] went around warning the residents in the
00:58:06
area to be careful. So when he shows up at one man's door, it happened to be a retired juvenile corrections officer
00:58:15
who lived there. So wrong man for Rickman to encounter. Prosecutor Greg Greer tells us more about what happened.
00:58:23
He hears his dogs barking outside. And he recognizes that's him. Tells his wife, tells her right away,
00:58:30
call 911. It's him. He goes out. He does have a firearm with him. He doesn't display it, but he's got
00:58:37
it on his person and he goes out and he encounters Mr. Rickman. Who is soaking wet, freezing cold,
00:58:44
hypothermic and he offers to take him inside and tries to warm him up and talks to him for a few minutes. Um
00:58:53
police still aren't there, no sign of them. He wants to get him out of his house
00:58:57
now. So he takes him and puts him in one of his his work vehicles saying he'll take him into town and get him a a hotel
00:59:03
room. Mhm. He keeps telling him, "Oh, I forgot my keys. Go back." to his wife, "Where are they?"
00:59:10
Back to the truck. >> Mhm. "I need my wallet." Back to the house. He is stalling for time. He comes
00:59:16
and he sits in the vehicle now with Mr. Rickman and thankfully he sees lights approaching
00:59:22
law enforcement from the distance and police get there >> and times up. Oh, that's an incredible
00:59:28
story. That is really incredible. Um you know, cuz he didn't have to. He could have just called up and say, "I
00:59:33
saw the guy in my backyard. Go get him." And but to bring him into your house. Well, Billy Rickman is eventually
00:59:39
charged with aggravated first-degree murder. He pleaded not guilty. And the prosecution argued that Rickman had
00:59:46
stalked and harassed Gloria in the days leading up to the murder. So, I have to say, I found the map that
00:59:52
showed Rickman's GPS coordinates from his cell phone and his pickup truck's system really convincing. Right. And the
01:00:01
prosecutor Karin Schnapp, she showed it all to us. Her presentation of how she talked to the jury through his
01:00:09
movements. And it was like he was hunting her. He was following her around. He kept going back and forth to
01:00:15
her parents' house. Prosecutors also pointed out that Rickman, he turned his phone off just for that time to then
01:00:24
kill Gloria. But then when he got back to the motel, he turned it back on. So, that tells you a lot about you know, he
01:00:32
was trying to to not show where he was by disabling his phone in that time. Officer Casey
01:00:40
Bents from the Lakewood Police Department, she was one of the first responding officers. And at trial, she
01:00:48
gave a real emotional testimony because you know, when she responded, Gloria was
01:00:53
wearing her lanyard from the Holiday Inn. And she realized this is the same woman who had called us on these
01:01:01
previous occasions. And Officer Bents was one of the officers who responded to the previous incident of the tire
01:01:08
slashing. And we should point out at trial the defense didn't call any witnesses. They didn't put Rickman on
01:01:14
the stand. According to prosecutor Greer, the defense really argued that investigators
01:01:19
failed to look for any other possible suspects. You know, uh defense has to work with what they have. It was 2 hours
01:01:27
of deliberation, and the jury found Billy Rickman guilty. He was sentenced to life in prison without the
01:01:33
possibility of parole. Gloria's parents have filed a wrongful death suit on behalf of Gloria's son, and their lawyer
01:01:41
says that the family believes Gloria would still be alive if Lakewood police had arrested Rickman when presented with
01:01:48
the clear examples of how he had violated the no-contact order. Right. And what's really interesting here is
01:01:55
that same evidence from the homicide trial that the prosecution used, the family's attorney, Megan Driscoll, said
01:02:02
this makes the case. This was again one of the most foreseeable and preventable tragedies. You know, the wrongful death
01:02:09
lawsuit against Lakewood and its police department is still pending. It's unresolved as of now. The police
01:02:16
department in the city has not publicly admitted that they made any mistakes. Um and John Justice, who is the attorney
01:02:23
who's representing the city and the Lakewood PD, said again that he can't comment on pending litigation. So, this
01:02:30
case is still before them. Of course. Of course. Um how is Gloria's son doing? Well, we know he is well supported. He
01:02:38
is surrounded by his family. Um he now lives with Gloria's relatives in another state. Her family did leave Washington.
01:02:47
And what about uh Breanna? She was a really powerful voice in this episode. She kind of brought Gloria to life for
01:02:55
us. Um She clearly they had a very strong friendship, and this had a huge impact
01:03:02
on her. And Breanna told us how much Gloria meant to her because when they met, Breanna had had some substance
01:03:10
abuse issues that she was overcoming. Um and Gloria saw through all of that. She
01:03:16
told us that Gloria literally changed her life. She gave her that promotion at the hotel where they were working
01:03:23
because Gloria was leaving her management position to go live with Billy Rickman, and she said she wanted
01:03:29
Breanna to take over for her, and I want to play a little bit more of our interview there with Breanna.
01:03:35
And I kind of looked at her and I was like, "Why? Like, I'm the last person you probably
01:03:40
want running your hotel." >> [laughter] [snorts] >> Um and she told me that I have shown her
01:03:50
grit and determination and that she trusted me 100% to run her parents' business.
01:03:59
Regardless of what I had done in my past, it didn't matter. She knew I was going to go far
01:04:05
and she wanted to give me the opportunity to do it. And I remember looking at her, I said,
01:04:10
"Are you Is your dad okay with this?" >> [laughter] >> And she goes, "I'll talk to him."
01:04:16
But she believed in you. She didn't Having somebody believe in you is Is everything?
01:04:21
Absolutely everything, and I believed in her, too. I believed that she could find her own path.
01:04:27
She was pretty excited to do it on her own. And she knew she could do it. And sadly, she was just starting to find
01:04:36
her own path when her life was tragically cut short. Um you know, Breanna said that even with Billy
01:04:43
Rickman, Gloria was choosing to see the good in everyone, to look past their flaws, to look past their demons, and
01:04:52
unfortunately, that's ultimately what cost her her life. Absolutely. Um Natalie, another great hour. Thank
01:05:00
you so much. Thank you, Anne Marie. If you like this episode, please rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.