00:00:01
[music] My mom said, "Scott shot Penny." [music] And I was like, "Is she okay?" And my mom [music]
00:00:20
was just like, "No, she's not okay." >> Penny was a bright and trusting 15-year-old.
00:00:26
>> She was neat. She's a neat little girl. But to Scott's brothers, a family friend, Penny became an obsession. He
00:00:33
started stalking her. There were threats. >> How many phone? >> Oh, >> 100 times a day.
00:00:39
>> Scott was arrested, hospitalized. >> He's in their psychiatric ward writing, "How cool will you look [music] when I
00:00:45
walk up and blow your brains out?" >> Then the unthinkable. [snorts] Aaron Morardi has some tough questions.
00:00:53
Are the doctors who treated him responsible for Penny's death? are her parents and they are the familiar faces
00:01:00
on your local news. Are they in danger? >> Nobody knows right now how many news anchors [music] get stalked.
00:01:07
>> A stalker chased this reporter out of town. >> Letters detailing about sexual
00:01:12
fantasies, ultimately ending with me being drowned in a bathtub. >> This reporter never had a chance to run.
00:01:19
>> 911, what's your emergency? >> Troy Roberts on being watched a little too closely.
00:01:24
>> What did you want from her? I don't know. >> 48 Hours investigates to catch a
00:01:30
stalker. Good evening and welcome to 48 Hours Investigates. I'm Leslie Stall. Penny
00:01:57
Chang knew and trusted Scott Strs. So did Penny's parents. Indeed, Scott Strs was like a member of the family and just
00:02:05
about the last person they would have ever suspected of posing a threat to their daughter. That's what makes this
00:02:11
case even harder to understand. There were warning signs that may have been missed, and there may have been
00:02:18
miscommunication, too. But there is also a question hanging over this case as to
00:02:23
whether the experts, the doctors are at all to blame. To Penny's family, the answer is clear. Aaron Morardi reports
00:02:32
on a story of misplaced trust that led to tragedy >> outside Cleveland, [music] Ohio. located
00:02:46
is a A21. >> Mathematician Seel Chang found what he couldn't in his native China academic
00:02:53
freedom and [music] a culturally rich and diverse neighborhood where he and his wife Yunwa could raise their four
00:03:01
[music] children. >> He wanted us to have a stable, happy family, you know, just for us to have a
00:03:06
better life. >> Joanne Chang, the oldest, loved growing up in Shaker Heights. You see children playing outside all the
00:03:16
time and it's just it's a comforting place to live. So you ready? >> I'm ready if you are.
00:03:21
>> Joanne is a medical student. Shawn is pursuing a master's degree in computer graphics.
00:03:27
>> You want to watch a football? >> Warren, the youngest, is a high school junior. And then there was Penny.
00:03:34
>> He's the most beautiful child we had. >> How did you name Penny? >> Penny is Pennsylvania. It's not
00:03:41
Pennsylvania. who was born in Pennsylvania. >> You must have really liked Pennsylvania.
00:03:48
>> And did she speak Chinese very well? >> So, so she was so so Americanized. >> Uncle,
00:03:57
>> she's definitely pretty much a typical American girl. I mean, talked on the phone for hours. She was neat. She's a
00:04:03
neat little girl. >> Hi. a child who thrived in her adopted community where no one would have
00:04:10
predicted what happened. >> Shaker Heights is is a an affluent suburb. Um it's very diverse. There's a
00:04:18
lot of old money. [music] Um and I think people don't like to think things like this happen in places like that. And uh
00:04:27
you know, we've learned they do. Mike Tobin, a reporter for the Cleveland Plane Dealer, says the problems began
00:04:33
for the Chang family in the summer of 1998. Penny had a summer job working alongside
00:04:40
Scott Strs, her brother's best friend since middle school. >> How would you describe Scott back then?
00:04:47
>> Very shy, very quiet, you know, really odd, really, you know, unorthodox sense
00:04:53
of humor that I just found hilarious. Scott had almost grown up at the Chang House [bell] and went on to become
00:05:01
Shaun's college roommate. >> He's just so nice and he's such a close friend of my brothers.
00:05:06
>> Which is why no one was too concerned when Scott and Penny spent a lot of time
00:05:11
together, [music] although Penny was only 15 and Scott was 21. Did your parents think anything of it that they
00:05:19
were spending a lot of time together? >> No. Why would they think a 21-year-old boy, friend of my brother, be a threat
00:05:25
to my 15-year-old sister? >> But the family didn't realize how serious Scott's feelings were.
00:05:32
>> Penny was pretty important to him. >> Yeah. And I think you see that in the journals where um Penny, at least for
00:05:39
that summer, was his life. >> Scott's brothers began a journal later that year that described his
00:05:45
relationship with Penny. In his journal, you see him talking about this girl is this wonderful thing and the object of
00:05:53
his affection. The times that I [music] had spent with Penny this summer when things were going good and she was nice
00:05:59
to me was like a dream come true. The weather was beautiful. So was she and I was at times happier than I had ever
00:06:05
been in [music] my life. >> There was only one problem. Penny didn't feel the same way. It seems like he
00:06:12
definitely read too much into it and really thought that, you know, she liked him and I just don't think that was the
00:06:19
case. When the summer ended and Penny began ignoring Scott, >> the Chang family phone began ringing off
00:06:29
the hook. >> How many phone calls? >> Oh, 100 times a year. >> Midnight. Midnight.
00:06:37
>> Midnight. >> Midnight. We We disconnect the phone. >> Yeah. But things got worse. He tried to burn
00:06:44
down the garage. He um put glue, my parents' gas tank. He threw like miscellaneous objects through the
00:06:53
window, like little rocks. >> They used the slim shut. >> This windows was broken. The front one,
00:07:01
the biggest front one, it was broken. >> Days later, the police arrested Scott Strs.
00:07:10
Shaker Heights Police Chief Walter Ugrrenic. >> Would you describe Scotts as a stalker?
00:07:16
>> Yes. Yes, he was following her. He was uh keeping an eye on her. >> He seemed like a shy, kind young boy.
00:07:26
Well, guess not so much. >> Were you worried that Scott would ever hurt her? >> I was a little, but it wasn't
00:07:32
overwhelming. >> Did she seem scared of him at all? >> She didn't. She didn't. She was 15. STRS
00:07:39
was charged with telephone harassment and misdemeanor arson, but right before sentencing, he voluntarily admitted
00:07:47
himself to this hospital for observation. >> Do you think Scott Strawthers went to
00:07:52
the Cleveland Clinic cuz he really wanted help? >> No, I think it was a legal tactic to to
00:07:57
show the court, you know, I'm sorry and I'm I'm taking steps to correct my behavior and I'm I'm sick and I'm
00:08:03
getting help. Whatever his motive, Stru stayed here for five weeks. He was released on Thanksgiving Day 1998 after
00:08:12
doctors determined he was no longer a threat. Even though the journal that Strs began as part of his therapy here
00:08:19
contains some very threatening entries. >> It's it's scary. You know, it's it's just frightening because he he
00:08:27
>> [snorts] >> lays out what he's going to do. And you see this progression, this evolution in
00:08:31
his mind of of her as this sweet little girl to this evil object that has to be made to pay.
00:08:41
>> The tone of Scott's writing becomes increasingly menacing. >> I think that my actions were a way to
00:08:47
force myself to be an important part of her life, even though it was in a negative way. [music] I once thought,
00:08:52
"Forget about me, [ __ ] I will make you remember me forever." And and then the one that just I still to this day can't
00:09:01
get over. How cool and superior will you look when I blow your brains out into the ground?
00:09:10
He's at the Cleveland Clinic in their psychiatric ward writing, "How cool will you look when I walk up and blow your
00:09:17
brains out?" And 5 months later, in broad daylight across the street from the police station, it's exactly what he
00:09:22
did. Three and a half months after being released from the Cleveland Clinic at 7:30 on a cold March morning, Scotts
00:09:40
stalked Penny Chang one more time as she walked to school. He approached her from behind and shot
00:09:50
her three times in the back of the head. blood pressure. >> Penny was rushed to the emergency room,
00:10:04
>> but it was too late. >> They bring me to the to see to see Penny. I saw Penny sleep on the bed. And
00:10:14
if I read the flower >> flower and all the blood >> blood, >> I know what what happens.
00:10:24
I check her puss. I found nothing. >> My mom said, "Scott shot Penny." And I was like, "Is she okay?"
00:10:36
And my mom was just like, "No, she's not okay." Oh my gosh. Those words were, "She's not okay." Well, how bad off is
00:10:46
she? She's dead. This had been a best friend. What was your reaction to that? >> Oh, shock, of course. You know, it's
00:10:59
just this out of this world shock. It's just unbelievable. >> 6 months after the shooting, Scott's
00:11:05
brothers plead guilty to murder. He's now serving a sentence of 23 years to life.
00:11:11
>> I mean, I'm glad that he's not going to see like the sun come up really. And I'm
00:11:16
going to make sure of that, too. I just keep >> But for the Chang family, Scott isn't
00:11:23
the only guilty party. >> Do you blame someone for Penny's death? >> The first of all, brand of course is
00:11:30
Scott Strather. The second person is the person took care of Scott Strother. >> For the entire five months prior to
00:11:38
Penny's death, Scott Strs was receiving psychiatric care. first as a patient here at the Cleveland Clinic and then
00:11:46
when he was released from a private therapist, the Changens believe these professionals could and should have
00:11:52
stopped others from killing their daughter. They're suing them for $20 million. >> I fear they made so much mistake.
00:12:01
>> The case is pursued as a wrongful death case. >> Paul Kaufman is a Chang attorney.
00:12:07
>> What do you see as the biggest failing on the part of Cleveland Clinic? I think
00:12:11
their biggest failing was in in discharging him when they did. I mean, it's our position he still needed to be
00:12:18
hospitalized. >> Everyone agrees that when Strers first arrived at the Cleveland Clinic after
00:12:24
stalking Penny and facing charges of harassment, he was a severely troubled young man.
00:12:30
>> Do you remember meeting Scott? >> Yes, I do. >> Forensic psychiatrist Kathleen Quinn. So
00:12:36
in many ways he looked quite ordinary although the concerns were extraordinary about him.
00:12:41
>> What do you mean? >> Well that there was an issue of dangerousness. >> Dr. Quinn says Strers exhibited a number
00:12:47
of behaviors which made him a significant risk for violence including severe anger, homicidal thoughts, and a
00:12:55
desire to obtain a gun. >> That resulted in an immediate hospitalization uh and there being a a commitment paper
00:13:04
uh drawn up. What's more, STRS made no secret of his desire to kill Penny in his journal. But Strs appeared to
00:13:13
improve and after just five weeks of treatment, he was discharged. Even though hospital records show doctors
00:13:20
still had some concerns. >> Two days before he was discharged, they didn't believe him and they they doubted
00:13:26
his credibility and he was he was showing no remorse and he was having no emotional reaction. I I don't see how
00:13:34
anybody could think that this young man was ready to be discharged. >> I had some concerns about his veracity.
00:13:43
>> George Tessar was the attending psychiatrist who authorized Str's release. >> They weren't consistent concerns from
00:13:51
day to day and by the end of the evaluation, I was quite convinced that he was telling us the truth as he felt
00:13:58
it. Then >> in an exclusive interview with 48 hours, Dr. Tesser says he released others only
00:14:04
after seeing great improvement in his patient. >> He no longer made those uh statements
00:14:10
about wanting to kill her or feeling any uh compulsion to kill her. He was feeling better.
00:14:16
>> According to Tessar, the homicidal thoughts expressed in Scott's journal were all in the past tense. At one point
00:14:23
in his journal, he writes, "Basically, I was thinking, how cool and superior will
00:14:28
you look, [ __ ] when I blow your brains out into the ground, right? >> You can just get rid of those feelings a
00:14:36
week or two later." >> Well, I think uh yeah, that's possible. He was not conveying the same kind of
00:14:44
impression at the end of this hospitalization. >> This man's assessment at discharge was
00:14:50
correct. It was correct because he didn't do anything when he was discharged. >> Attorney Jim Malone is defending the
00:14:57
Cleveland Clinic. >> Nothing violent took place for three and a half months. >> He says expecting psychiatrists to
00:15:03
predict violence that far into the future is expecting too much. >> The Cleveland Clinic has uh every uh
00:15:11
medical device uh to benefit humankind. The one thing they don't have is a crystal ball that works. Our clinical
00:15:19
experience suggests that we're pretty good at it um uh at predicting violence in the short term 24 48 72 hours after
00:15:31
an evaluation. Beyond that, nobody's very good at p uh predicting violence. If the Cleveland Clinic couldn't predict
00:15:39
that Scott Strs would become a killer, what about the private therapist who picked up his case and saw him regularly
00:15:46
right up until he bought a gun to kill Penny? >> Rain will call rain to the stand.
00:15:51
>> Scott STS met with Raina Krell regularly for three and a half months. On March
00:15:56
12th, 1999, STRs bought a gun, took it to this shooting range, and practiced firing it.
00:16:05
Although he had seen Krell two days earlier, she saw no sign of his escalating anger.
00:16:13
>> How did Raina Krell not see that? >> I think you'd have to ask her. >> Cra refused to talk with 48 hours, but
00:16:21
she told the court, >> "Did he ever make any threats of any kind?" >> No. >> Did he ever have any evidence of recent
00:16:28
homicidal ideiation? >> No. >> Did he ever show any evidence of present dangerousness? No, he had talked about
00:16:37
comments of feeling regret, feeling um more personally responsible. He uh demonstrated an interest in work.
00:16:46
>> From your perspective, is this is this positive, negative? What >> I viewed it as positive?
00:16:52
>> I think she looked at him as sort of the jilted boyfriend depression type of situation and never really got below the
00:17:01
surface. >> Is it possible that he was such a good actor? He really fooled all the doctors.
00:17:06
>> Sure, it's possible. But the problem with that is that these doctors are the experts.
00:17:16
With millions of dollars and their reputations at stake, Scott's brother's doctors are fighting back by pointing
00:17:23
the blame [music] at Penny's own family. >> He's the most beautiful child we have.
00:17:30
>> That's next. just plain oldfashioned evil. And there is scarcely anything that can be done by
00:17:41
mental health or anybody else to prevent evil from having its way. Penny Chang was gunned down by this former patient,
00:17:50
Scott Brothers. Cleveland Clinic attorney Jim Malone says doctors did all they could for both Strs and the Chang,
00:17:58
including taking the extraordinary step of calling the Chang family to tell them
00:18:03
of Strut's release. But was that phone call sending a [music] mixed message? >> You're discharging him because you think
00:18:10
he's safe? Why then do you feel an obligation to inform the chains? That sounds like you weren't quite sure
00:18:16
whether he was safe. >> Cleveland Clinic psychiatrist George Tessar. We thought in in in view of uh
00:18:22
the comments that he had made and the kind of interaction he'd had with the Chang uh prior to the hospitalization
00:18:30
that it was only courteous, fair to let them know that he was being discharged. >> So there was a little concern.
00:18:37
>> There was concern that they should be informed that he was no longer in the hospital.
00:18:43
>> But the Chang say that phone call led them to believe they no longer had to worry about Strs. My dad told me, they
00:18:50
called and say, "Scott is no longer a threat to your family." And with that little comment, I mean, my actually my
00:18:58
dad was very relieved. >> We trust the Cleveland Clinic very much. They say no problem. They have no
00:19:04
intention. We say, "Okay, he he's possible still a good boy, right?" >> But the hospital left out an important
00:19:12
fact. Their assessment of Strs was only meant for the short term. >> Did anybody tell the Changens that? Did
00:19:18
anybody say, "Okay, today we think he might not be a risk, but a month down the road, it's anybody's bet, and you
00:19:25
better be careful." >> No, we didn't tell the Changens that. Common sense would tell you that you
00:19:31
don't know exactly what's going to happen uh 3 months down the line. >> Do you think in retrospect that warning
00:19:36
was enough for the Changs? >> I don't know. It's certainly an important point to consider.
00:19:41
>> Whether or not the warning was adequate is an issue at trial because of what happened nearly 3 months later. The
00:19:48
Changens claimed that phone call is the reason why they didn't become alarmed when out of the blue, Scotts make
00:19:56
contact again. >> Everything that happened to Scott after the summer is all Penny's fault. She
00:20:00
ruined his life for her own petty amusement. Scott, >> this time it was in the form of emails.
00:20:06
>> Everything he did was >> Cleveland plane dealer reporter Mike Tobin. >> The number one rule of stalking is never
00:20:11
use your own phone. He didn't care if he got caught. >> He's talking about talking about
00:20:16
himself. The same angry rambling emails written in the third person were sent to
00:20:22
Penny, her brother, and her father. But the Chang didn't find them threatening. >> I saw nothing dangerous in February
00:20:30
email. >> Nothing dangerous, just angry. >> Just complain. >> Complaining. >> Complain.
00:20:34
>> I don't think they believe there was anything to worry about, but my word, what do you have to hear to be worried?
00:20:40
in response to the f >> in fact the Changens reached out to Strs after receiving them do anything
00:20:47
>> all basically you know I said look okay you've scolded her enough just leave her
00:20:51
alone and continue your life you think about Penny there's lots of girls I don't stay campus
00:20:57
>> when you emailed him what did you say back >> like a teacher I say go back to the
00:21:02
college immediately >> you are ruining yourself >> isn't it possible the Changs were still
00:21:08
relying on the word of the hospital 3 months earlier. He's no longer a threat and that's why they didn't react to the
00:21:14
emails. >> I suppose it's a conceivable explanation but a rather naive response to threat.
00:21:23
>> One month later, just days before the murder, Strs emailed the Changens again.
00:21:29
>> Next time it's a March email about 60 pages. >> 60 pages. >> 60 pages like a book. This time the
00:21:38
Changens didn't read them, thinking they were simply more of Scott's harmless complaints.
00:21:43
>> And I saw nothing dangerous in the few first few pages. >> Had he read [music] further, he would
00:21:49
have been horrified. Buried within the 60 pages, [music] Stru spells out his plan to kill Penny.
00:21:56
>> I would like to take a hammer and repeatedly smash her face and with [music] it until her face is a soupy,
00:22:02
bloody pulp. Scott's moral duty has been satisfied [music] by just sending these
00:22:07
messages. You can never say that you didn't know. You were given the [music] opportunity. Remember that.
00:22:13
>> That's really creepy. >> Yeah. >> He was warning them of what he was going to do and they didn't realize it.
00:22:18
>> I thought he was doing better. >> Neither did Raina Krell, the therapist who had been treating Strs at the same
00:22:24
time he was writing out his murderous intentions. >> Did you when you were treating Scott
00:22:29
Strs have any information at all relating to these emails? >> No, I did not. Did you ever hear of
00:22:34
>> what you were treating? >> No. >> Did you do your very best treating Scott's brothers?
00:22:40
>> I did the best I could with the information I had. >> You're a professional person.
00:22:44
>> You're not expecting her to be a mind readader. >> Nobody's mind reader, but you still
00:22:49
should know he has the intention. But Cleveland Clinic attorney Jim Malone says since only the Chang knew about the
00:22:57
emails, only the Changs could have prevented their daughter's death by notifying the police.
00:23:03
>> In the bottom of your heart, Dr. Chang, don't you know that you should have called for help? That a call to the
00:23:08
police would have stopped all of this. >> If I read this email totally, definitely
00:23:17
I call police. was part of your strategy to deflect blame away from the hospital
00:23:24
and onto the chain. >> No, I don't believe they're responsible for the death of their daughter. But
00:23:28
what I say is this. If that phone call had been placed, the Shaker Heights Police Department would have had this
00:23:34
man off the streets very rapidly. We could probably take some of the blame, right? But here, they're trying saying
00:23:40
that it's not their fault at all. What kind of bull crap's that? >> All right. Now, it's up to the jury to
00:23:47
decide. >> If the doctor, the psychiatrist, looks at a patient and makes a decision about
00:23:52
a treatment plan or a discharge plan, and he does that in so-called good faith, then he's immune by law from the
00:24:00
consequences of that decision. >> I will read the verdict in this case. >> After [music] just 2 hours, the jury
00:24:06
agrees. >> As to the defendant, Cleveland Clinic, in favor of the defendant, Cleveland
00:24:12
Clinic. asked to the defendant Rea Cra in favor of the defendant Raina Cra. >> The Changens will get nothing [music]
00:24:20
from the clinic or the doctors. >> Where do you think the weak spot in your case was?
00:24:25
>> I think it's extremely difficult to win a case against doctors andor therapists.
00:24:29
We've got a lot of burdens to overcome. All of the burdens are on us. >> What should we take from this case?
00:24:35
>> We've learned that there are profound limitations to what psychiatry can do and what its ownus of responsibility
00:24:41
should be. We made our decisions based on what we thought were reasonable observations and interpretations of what
00:24:49
we were seeing. And it could well be that the Changens were as well. [music] >> But Dr. Chang still believes the
00:24:56
psychiatrist could have done more. And since we first brought you this story, [music] he's filed an appeal for a new
00:25:02
trial. >> Penny was clear. Nobody can change the situation. [music] But I like to show as many of
00:25:09
psychiatrist do your professional job. carefully. Don't repeat such things. We don't like this happened again.
00:25:17
>> What advice would you have for [music] a family that's in your situation? >> It's better to be extremely [music]
00:25:24
worried and than to have this happen. I'm sorry. So what? You're worry worse. So what? Ooh, big
00:25:30
deal. You'll have a sister. You have your daughter. Stalking happens to be an occupational
00:25:49
hazard of this business, television reporting, that nobody likes to talk about. But the stalking of on-air
00:25:56
personalities is a growing concern. It's even become a topic of conversation at various professional gatherings among
00:26:03
local television anchors and reporters. They are especially at risk since they're often encouraged to connect with
00:26:10
the audience on a personal level. The trouble is it's hard to know who's watching. Troy Roberts has a story of
00:26:18
some local television reporters who made the headlines for all the wrong reasons.
00:26:23
>> Energetic meteorologist George Kesler was the top rated weatherman in Duth, Minnesota.
00:26:30
>> Take look. Here's satellite picture in motion. You say, George, why is it so windy? In all of our audience research,
00:26:35
we saw George Kesler as our most popular personality. >> KBJR TV news director David Jench.
00:26:42
>> People felt like George Kesler was their friend. >> Now, the Channel 6 6:00 news
00:26:46
>> live television. [music] You can't beat it for a rush. >> If you're deep down inside secretly an
00:26:51
adrenaline junkie, it's um it's what you want to do. I know. Is that frozen now?
00:26:57
>> Kesler felt right at home in Duth with his wife Sheila and their small children. This was a perfect fit for
00:27:03
you, right? You liked the city. >> Love the city. Duth is a great town. You could drop a money clip in the middle of
00:27:11
the street and somebody chase after you to give it back. And so you have this wonderful sense of it is it's almost
00:27:17
childlike the security that you have here. Snow showers will hold up. You think they're just going to die and
00:27:22
they're dead. But for George Kesler, the childlike security would turn into agony
00:27:28
and fear in the very town he embraced at the same TV station he loved. It all began to unravel one day in March of
00:27:37
2000 when Kesler arrived for work. >> It was Monday and I was [music] coming through uh the newsroom pretty quickly.
00:27:47
Saw that my message light was on. So you're putting your stuff down. You set your voicemail to play back and all of a
00:27:52
sudden it just erupted. This, you know, stream of vitriol came out of the phone.
00:27:58
>> I'm a man, Mr. Kesler. I'm not some ass homosexual. Do you understand me? >> The caller was a man Kesler had never
00:28:06
met. 42-year-old Shawn Wayne Thorson, a psychiatric patient with a reputation for violence.
00:28:14
>> Did Sean Thorson threaten you with bodily harm? >> Oh, yes. In no uncertain terms,
00:28:21
>> the next time you call me, preferably gay, Mr. Weatherman, I'm gonna beat the
00:28:25
out of you. And that's no joke. >> He was seeing George's weather and he felt that George was saying things to
00:28:31
him. I've seen things, threatening things. He felt George was threatening him through the TV.
00:28:36
>> Yeah, this is Sean again, and I'm not going to accept your apology, you happen
00:28:41
to be one of those people who can uh dish it out but can't take it, huh, yourself? Well, you're going to find out
00:28:47
the hard way, my friend. I can definitely do something about it and God bestowed upon myself the power to do so.
00:28:53
>> Thorson ignored warnings from police, even a restraining order to stop making
00:28:59
the phone calls. For that, he spent 4 months in a mental institution. But after he was released, Thorson went
00:29:07
straight back to the phone. >> And your ass ain't getting away with what the you've done to me, especially
00:29:13
for calling your dogs the police on me. Over the next year, Thorson was committed and released for mental
00:29:19
illness two more times. Incredibly, there was nothing more Kesler or the police could do.
00:29:26
>> The way the laws are, you can't necessarily have security in a situation like this until something really bad
00:29:34
happens. >> Do you think given the opportunity, Sean Thorson would have killed you?
00:29:42
If he was in the grips of a delusion and I happen to be available to him, yes, without a doubt.
00:29:50
>> The question really is how many stalkers does a celebrity have? Not if they have
00:29:55
any. >> Forensic psychiatrist Dr. Park Deetsz has spent years investigating and testifying against serial killers and
00:30:03
stalkers, including Jeffrey Dmer and John Hinckley. Deiet says stalking of television news personalities is an
00:30:10
occupational hazard that few in the TV industry are willing to discuss. >> The illusion of intimacy is inherent in
00:30:17
the medium. It's inevitable that some viewers are going to be attracted to this.
00:30:22
>> Take a look. Satellite picture in motion. >> And while George Kesler's ordeal wasn't
00:30:26
unique, stalkers more frequently target women. The ideal victim is a sweet, kind, gentle, pretty, accepting,
00:30:37
approachable virgin that allows many men in the audience to have the view she's meant for me.
00:30:45
>> Good afternoon and welcome to News7 at Noon. I'm Melanie Moon. Anchorwoman Melanie Moon was a rising star at WDBJ
00:30:52
in Rowanoke, Virginia, when in 1996 she started getting dark suggestive letters from not one but several viewers.
00:31:01
>> Letters detailing about sexual fantasies and ultimately ending with me being drowned in a bathtub.
00:31:08
>> What did these letters do to you psychologically, emotionally? >> Give you nightmares. For months, I would
00:31:15
take a shower with the bathroom door locked, would be at the grocery store. If someone looked at me strangely, for a
00:31:22
second, I would think, "Maybe that's them." By the fall of 1997, the FBI was searching for Melanie Moon stalkers.
00:31:32
Then she began hearing from 47-year-old David Lee Duff. >> The first couple letters I got, he would
00:31:39
call me the goddess of dawn. and um you and I are alone together each morning in
00:31:44
my room. They got to things like, "I like what you were wearing today. I know you were wearing it for me. Um I saw you
00:31:51
smiling at me today. Thank you." And then he sent me um an engagement ring. >> Even after all she'd been through,
00:31:58
Melanie Moon didn't think David Lee Duff was out to harm her. After all, he had only sent what she believed were fairly
00:32:05
innocent tokens of his affection. But on November 5th, 1997, Duff crossed the line and came to visit Melanie at work.
00:32:15
The confrontation was caught on videotape. Duff was told to leave and he did so without incident. Ronuk police
00:32:23
then warned him to stop contacting Moon, but the harassment didn't stop. >> He continued to write letters saying
00:32:30
things like, "They can't keep us apart. I'll wear jailhouse orange if I have to."
00:32:36
It almost came to [music] that. >> This court is again in session. Please proceed.
00:32:40
>> In March of 1998, Melanie Moon saw her stalker for the first time at the Rowan
00:32:46
Oak City Courthouse. >> This takes away even more of your of feeling feeling um secure and safe.
00:32:56
>> David Lee Duff was convicted of stalking, but all he got was a six-month suspended sentence. or which Gold has
00:33:04
some breaking news. >> Melanie Moon got out of Rowan Oak, taking a new job in another city where
00:33:10
she's better prepared for unwelcome attention. >> Tear gas on my keychain. >> Carrying tear gas on her keychain and a
00:33:17
stung gun in her purse. >> Haven't had to use it yet. >> Park De says he understands why she has
00:33:24
them. >> Nobody knows right now how many news anchors get stalked. The likelihood is
00:33:31
that for good-looking females on the news nightly, it's 100%. >> It's a warning Deiet says that not
00:33:41
enough television personalities take seriously. >> 911, what's your emergency? 911. What's your emergency?
00:34:03
>> Well, I'm just wondering if you guys could send out somebody to uh check out my neighbor upstairs. I heard a lot of
00:34:10
thumping on the floor. Really loud. >> January 22nd, 1998. At 8:30 a.m., Michael Goodman calls 911
00:34:20
in Temple, Texas. >> Okay. in um going to be apartment 246. >> 246. Yeah. Her name's uh Katherine
00:34:30
Fitman. >> Okay. Does she live alone up there? >> Um yes, she does. >> Minutes later, police arrive at the
00:34:36
Wildwood Apartments and make a horrifying discovery. Popular local TV reporter Katherine
00:34:43
Deman's nude body on the floor of her bedroom. >> Details are sketchy at this point, but
00:34:49
here's what we know. Right. The 36-year-old Deman had been on the verge of an important career move. She was
00:34:55
taking a new job at a much larger TV station in Dallas. This would be her last day of smalltown life in Temple,
00:35:03
Texas. >> It was common for her to uh in the morning get up, let the cat out, and
00:35:08
leave the door slightly a jar uh so the cat could come in and out while she went
00:35:13
about making coffee, getting ready to go to work. >> Assistant DA Murf Bledsoe. The evidence
00:35:19
appeared that she had come out of the shower. She may have heard a noise and come out in a robe or a towel and there
00:35:25
was a confrontation. >> We have a homicide. >> It was an extremely violent attack.
00:35:35
>> Temple police sergeant Keith Reed. >> She had 15 to 16 stab wounds. >> Suspect in custody. Suspect in custody.
00:35:48
The suspect was 21-year-old neighbor Anthony Gary Sylvestri. Police found him hiding in Katherine Deman's bedroom.
00:35:56
>> His clothes were covered in blood and uh he had blood on his fingers in his hands.
00:36:03
>> Friends of Katherine Deutman say Sylvestri had been stalking her. One co-orker told us Catherine had
00:36:09
complained to him that Sylvester was following her at the apartment complex and showing up in her car when she came
00:36:16
and left home. >> She told me about this young guy asking her out at her apartment complex when
00:36:20
she had gone to check her mail. >> Yolanda Johnson was a receptionist at the station where Catherine worked and a
00:36:26
close friend. She remembers Catherine mentioning Sylvester by name. >> He had told her that he had seen her on
00:36:33
TV and thought she was a very beautiful lady. >> She confided in you. Yes. >> Paula Brown considered Katherine Deppman
00:36:40
her best friend. She says Deman was a trusting person and just didn't recognize Sylvester's interests as
00:36:47
potentially dangerous. >> She would have said something. I mean, she would call when her stomach hurt. If
00:36:52
someone were after her, we would have known that. >> Deman's naive doesn't surprise Park
00:37:00
Deetsz, who says many on air personalities aren't even aware they're being stalked. Most station managers
00:37:08
don't even give the news anchors all their mail or all their email. Very few stations have adequate screening of who
00:37:16
gets on the premises or do the things for their talent that can help protect them.
00:37:24
>> Anthony Gary Sylvestri plead guilty to the murder of Katherine Deman and is serving a 40 years to life prison
00:37:31
sentence. I was at the wrong place at the wrong time and I got mad and I lost my temper.
00:37:37
>> Police searched Sylvester's apartment and found this pair of binoculars which
00:37:42
they believe he used to spy on Detman and a friend of Sylvester's told authorities that Sylvestri had been
00:37:49
watching her. >> Sylvester had taken him uh to the part of the apartment where he could look out
00:37:55
across the courtyard and see a window of Catherine's apartment. >> What did he say
00:37:59
>> as he's looking through the binoculars? She's really fine. She looks like a model.
00:38:05
>> What did you want from her? >> I don't know. >> She really believed that if she was kind
00:38:15
and accepting that people would treat her well. I think that was her desire and I think
00:38:22
that was her belief >> and her mistake >> and her mistake. >> It's a bad night out there, folks.
00:38:30
There's no way around it. Temperatures >> in Duth, Minnesota, weatherman George Kesler heard about what happened to
00:38:36
Katherine Deetman. >> Yeah, this is Shawn again. I'm really not afraid of you people.
00:38:40
>> And after enduring nearly a year of Shawn Thorson's menacing phone calls, he made a drastic decision. Kesler quit his
00:38:49
job and no longer works in television. >> And I said, you know, this is not something that's going away. In his own
00:38:57
twisted way, he wanted you to walk away from your job and he accomplished that. >> Yes,
00:39:05
>> he won. >> We have to understand that he wasn't doing it out of malice. >> Doesn't matter. He won,
00:39:12
>> right? >> Yes, he did. In the last decade or so, all 50 states have passed anti-stalking laws. At least
00:39:29
a dozen states make stalking an automatic felony. And by no means is it mainly celebrities who are victims. If
00:39:37
you feel you're being followed or threatened, report it to the police, tell a friend, and keep a record of it.
00:39:44
That could all be crucial to staying safe. No one wants to go through life looking over their shoulder, but experts
00:39:51
say a little healthy suspicion could be the first step to stop a stalker. That's 48 hours investigates.
00:40:03
[music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music] [music] >> One of my [music] friends mom had texted
00:40:49
me cuz she lived pretty close to Grapevine Lake and she was like, "Look what happened."
00:40:57
>> Developing story right now, a body found on the banks [music] of Grapevine Lake.
00:41:02
>> Nothing happens in Grapevine. Nothing except for what [music] he did. The victim was identified as Jacqueline
00:41:10
Vandergri. >> Hello everyone. My name is Jacqueline Vandergri, but friends call me Jackie.
00:41:16
>> Jackie Vandergriff was 24 years of age. >> I am currently a junior here at Texas
00:41:22
Women's University, and my [music] major is nutrition with an emphasis in wellness.
00:41:27
>> And just beyond this area where the shade is pretty [music] much hitting is where we had our crime scene.
00:41:34
There are a lot of things that will shock you and this is by far the worst thing I have seen.
00:41:41
>> My manager text me. >> Charles has just been arrested. I felt like the [music] world was
00:41:48
spinning like everything was out of control. It's believed that last [music] Tuesday
00:41:55
Jacqueline Vandagramriff met up with Charles Bryant at a bar in Denton. Surveillance video, also cell phone
00:42:01
pings, all put Vander Griffin Bryant together. >> I remember him just being kind of quiet.
00:42:09
I immediately said, "There's [music] no way. They have the wrong guy. There's no
00:42:13
way that he did this." >> Are you telling me there's no evidence that Charles Bryant killed Jackie
00:42:18
Vandergri? >> Not direct evidence of it. This is [music] kind of my calling dealing with these really strange cases.
00:42:34
The serial killer, the ritualistic killings. >> Hey, how you doing? How's >> today?
00:42:39
>> Good. Jim Holland with the Rangers. Life good today or not? >> This is not a a normal homicide.
00:42:47
>> You know how they kill someone? >> It all seemed to have started [music] with Caitlyn.
00:42:53
>> How screwed up are you from Caitlyn, man? In the early days, it was good. After
00:43:00
[music] that first month, that's when I started to see these warning signs that he was manipulative, very controlling. I
00:43:08
just told him, "I can't do this anymore. This isn't [music] working. This is over."
00:43:15
He flipped out. >> He showed up at your dorm room out of the blue. You never gave him the
00:43:22
address. >> No. >> You know, you trespassed. In his mind, he was seeking revenge.
00:43:27
>> The warrant that we got is for stalking >> on his [music] ex-girlfriend who had
00:43:30
called the police on him. >> How he was stalking me was completely related to Jackie [music] Vandergri's death.
00:43:38
>> There's some similarities, the way that Vandergriff looks and the way that Brian's ex-girlfriend
00:43:47
looked. Do you think there's a chance, a possibility that he walked into this bar
00:43:54
and saw somebody, reminded him of you and took his rage out on her? >> Most definitely. I I think that he
00:44:03
really wanted to kill me. I think that he wanted me dead. >> [music] [music] [music]
00:44:54
>> When I first arrived on the scene, I saw a lot of police cars, saw fire trucks.
00:45:00
There was a lot of activity. It was September 14th, [music] 2016, just before dawn, when John Luna, a
00:45:09
captain with the Grapevine Police Department, responded to a call about a gruesome discovery here at Grapevine
00:45:15
Lake. >> Just off of the worn footpath, you have an area that's pretty well overgrown
00:45:22
with weeds, but you could clearly see a small area that was burned. Just beyond where I'm standing, there was a body
00:45:30
that was obviously charred. It had been set on fire. >> The body found inside a blue kiddie pool
00:45:36
was so badly damaged that police could not determine the most basic facts about the victim.
00:45:42
>> We didn't know if that was an adult [music] or a child, a male or a female. >> The next day, using fingerprints, police
00:45:51
were able to identify the victim. It was Jackie Vandergri, a 24year-old nutrition
00:45:57
major at Texas Women's University in nearby Denton. I chose this major because um I realized the importance of
00:46:05
nutrition and just overall health. We're both named Jacqueline, named after Jacqueline Kennedy.
00:46:11
>> One of Jackie Vandergri's closest friends, Jackie Ton. They met in high school.
00:46:16
>> Ever since then, we were Jackie squared, and I loved it. She made me feel like I
00:46:21
could be myself and just be goofy and funny. Jackie Ton remembers her friend as a
00:46:28
good student who was focused [music] and trusting. >> That girl, smartest girl I've known.
00:46:41
>> She had her whole life ahead of her. She had plans. Me and my detectives, we went
00:46:46
out there for her memorial [snorts] service. [music] And um sorry >> for Captain Luna, the brutality of this
00:46:57
crime hit close to home. [snorts] Could have just as easily been my daughter that this happened to.
00:47:06
>> Jackie spent the last evening of her life in Denton with this man. Police didn't know his identity right away, but
00:47:14
this woman knew him very well. He would always get me flowers. Always. Especially if he had something to be
00:47:20
sorry about. >> Charles Bryant lives some 20 miles away, but he had been making frequent visits
00:47:27
to Denton, trying to rekindle a relationship with his ex-girlfriend, Caitlyn Matthysse, who had recently
00:47:35
moved there to attend the University of North Texas. >> He was just trying to win me back, and I
00:47:41
was just like, nothing is going to work. Caitlyn's involvement with Bryant had [music] begun three months earlier in
00:47:48
June in the town of Grapevine when he came into the restaurant where Caitlyn was working as a server.
00:47:55
>> The day that I met him was the day after I graduated high school. He had lots of muscles um and tattoos
00:48:03
which kind of interested me at the at the time. >> Bryant was then 29 working as a
00:48:10
bartender and personal trainer. You're 18. He's 29. He's got muscles and tattoos and must have made your mother
00:48:20
crazy. >> Yeah, extremely crazy. In a good way, though. Yeah, she cared about me.
00:48:28
>> Being a mother of adult children is a different role. >> You have to let go for them to to fly away and
00:48:40
grow up with you. Caitlyn is the youngest of Karen Hulse's four children. [laughter]
00:48:45
>> She says Caitlyn was hard to miss. >> Fireball. You know, when she's in the house, she never walked anywhere. She
00:48:54
ran everywhere. >> And Caitlyn ran headlong into the relationship with Charles Bryant that
00:49:01
summer of 2016. One of their regular date spots was at the park by Grapevine Lake where this
00:49:08
[music] picture was taken. When Karen learned about the relationship, she asked Caitlyn to show her a picture of
00:49:15
him. >> I got this feeling just deep inside to my bones, an evil feeling. And I said, "He's going to hurt you.
00:49:28
He's going to do something bad." >> Wow. >> And she's like, "Oh, he's nice. He's
00:49:34
good to me. He makes me feel like an adult." >> Were you thinking to yourself, "You're
00:49:38
18. You're too young to know. >> Yes, but I didn't want to insult her. >> Within weeks, Caitlyn was having serious
00:49:48
doubts of her own about Bryant. >> That's when I started to see these warning signs
00:49:54
that he was manipulative. He was a bit of a nar narcissist. He thought very highly of himself. He
00:50:02
would say things like, "Oh, you'll never find anyone better than me." It [music]
00:50:05
was toxic. And he was toxic. In mid August 2016, Caitlyn broke up with Bryant. She thought that was
00:50:14
[music] the last she'd see of him. But the next day, he showed up uninvited at her mother's house.
00:50:21
>> And somehow he convinced me to get back with him. He was trying to say, "Oh, I
00:50:26
can work on this and I can be better and making all these promises." >> But Caitlyn realized she wasn't
00:50:34
interested in promises. That was one of the things that my mom taught me. People
00:50:39
do not change. You You can't change someone. At that point, I was just waiting for the perfect time to end
00:50:46
things. >> A little more than a week later, after Caitlyn moved away to school, she told
00:50:52
Brian it was over again. Later that night, police found him on campus. >> Just by sheer coincidence, I had made a
00:51:02
traffic stop and he was driving that vehicle. Captain Jeremy Pulk was then a lieutenant for the campus police. He
00:51:10
pulled Brian over early in the morning of August 24th. >> I thought he was an intoxicated driver
00:51:15
by the way he was driving and that was my focus. >> So right now I'm have to place you on,
00:51:20
you know, arrest. So you could you can just remain seated. It's all good. >> Bryant was not over the legal limit. He
00:51:27
was charged with a few outstanding traffic tickets and they let him go. Later that same day, he was back on
00:51:34
Caitlyn's campus again. >> He actually knocked on the door of my dorm room. He didn't know prior to where
00:51:41
I lived and he said, "Oh, your name was on the door." >> Did that creep you out?
00:51:46
>> It did. At that point, I was scared. >> Caitlyn got him out of there and called
00:51:51
campus police. Captain Pulk recognized Bryant's name [music] on the report and went along to interview Caitlyn the next
00:51:59
day. She told us things like, "I I just did not like the way Charles spoke to me. I
00:52:06
did not like the way he treated me, and I made that choice then and there. You know, I would do everything I could to
00:52:10
help her with this situation." >> Pulk issued a no trespass order, banning Charles Bryant from the [music] campus.
00:52:20
But once again, Bryant >> would not take no for an answer. The biggest fear I have as a police
00:52:28
officer sometimes is emotion because emotion drives people to do things you would never imagine.
00:52:50
It was my first day there and he walked through the door and my heart just dropped to the bottom of [music] my
00:52:58
stomach. >> It was August 31st, 2016, a week since [music] Charles Bryant had tracked
00:53:05
Caitlyn Matthysse down at her new dorm. Now he was invading her space again. Coming into her new restaurant on her
00:53:13
first day of work, >> I was like, I just want you to leave. >> What did he say to that? He didn't
00:53:20
really say anything. He looked upset. My new co-workers, they were like, "Yeah, he was here yesterday looking for
00:53:26
you." >> Caitlyn asked her manager to keep Bryant out, but her manager said there was
00:53:33
nothing he could do. [music] >> I can't work here. I don't feel safe enough to work here.
00:53:40
>> Caitlyn went back to her old job a half hour's drive [music] away. Her mother
00:53:45
found it all hard to watch from a distance. I said, "Come home." It was my motherly instinct to protect her, and in
00:53:54
order to protect her, I had to have her with me. But Caitlyn thought she'd be safe in her
00:54:00
dorm. A week later, on September [music] 6th, what would have been their 3-month
00:54:05
anniversary, Bryant was back yet again. >> He showed up [music] to to my dorm, knocked on my door, and at this point, I
00:54:14
was shaking. I'm all alone. I uh actually hid in my sweetitemates's closet. >> You hid?
00:54:20
>> Yes. When I was on the phone with the police, they were like, "We can't hear you. You need to speak up." And I was
00:54:26
just afraid that he was going to hear my voice. I did hear him say, "Caitlyn, I know you're in there. Just open up. I
00:54:31
have something for you." And I'm like, "God, what? What do you What do you have for me? I don't want it."
00:54:39
>> Bryant left flowers, sent a two-page letter. When police arrived, he was gone.
00:54:46
>> I heard him say, "Hey, it's Charles. I have something for you." >> You didn't know for sure it was him.
00:54:51
>> Yeah, I know it was him. >> Sier 27, myself and 443 going to be >> police found him outside [music] 10
00:54:57
minutes later. >> You have school here? >> Yeah. >> What's your name? >> Now in running clothes
00:55:03
and arrested him for trespassing. >> You know, you're not supposed to be up. >> Brian posted bond and was released
00:55:11
within hours. Although Caitlyn had already blocked him on her phone, email, and social media, he created a new email
00:55:19
address and wrote to her later that same day. Here I am, heartbroken and with a criminal record for bringing the girl I
00:55:27
love flowers. >> That's when it became really serious for me. If an actual physical arrest doesn't
00:55:33
stop the behavior, then you're, you know, something is wrong. Captain Pulk helped Caitlyn get an
00:55:40
emergency protective order and because Brian had kept trying to reach her after his arrest.
00:55:46
>> How you doing, Charles? You have your ID with you. >> Pul had his officers go to Bryant's
00:55:50
house the next day and charge him yet again. This time for stalking. This was his third arrest in 14 days.
00:56:00
>> I told him if he continued to communicate with Caitlyn, I would use every email. I would use every text
00:56:07
message. I would use every phone call as a reason to have him rearrested. >> Two days later, Bryant posted a $5,000
00:56:14
bond and got out of jail. >> He was telling his roommate that I [music] was the the crazy one in this
00:56:22
relationship. So, all of his friends were kind of coming at me and they were like, "Why?
00:56:28
You need to like drop these charges against him." >> [music] >> By September 13th, Bryant was back in
00:56:34
Denton, just a half mile from Caitlyn's dorm in an area she had told him about back when they were still dating.
00:56:41
>> I was talking about going up to Fry Street and like meeting new people. Bryant went to Fry Street Public House
00:56:48
[music] that night at about 700 p.m. An hour later, Jackie Vandergri walked in, asked about a job, and ended up in a
00:56:56
conversation with [music] the bartender and Charles Bryant. About 45 minutes later, Jackie posted a
00:57:04
message on her Twitter. I'm glad I decided to get off Tinder and walk to a bar. Jackie's friend, Jackie Ton. Jackie was
00:57:14
a very social person. Whenever she went out, she would make friends with everybody. And it wasn't even flirty. It
00:57:23
wasn't anything. You know, she was talking to the bartender, talking to other people.
00:57:29
>> At about 9:00, Jackie [music] left with Bryant and the bartender. She and Bryant
00:57:34
went to another bar nearby and started talking to a group of women. By 9:45 [music] it was raining and
00:57:42
everyone was headed out. Jackie left with Charles Bryant. >> I feel like she felt comfortable enough
00:57:50
with [music] him that night because she had been hanging out with him for so long that she [music] was like, "Hey,
00:57:56
well, whatever. He's just going to drop me off. It's not that far and I'll be good."
00:58:04
>> Once in his [music] car, Bryant stopped at a convenience store. This was the last time Jackie
00:58:10
Vandergriff was seen alive. The day after she [music] was found dead, there was a new post on her
00:58:17
Twitter. Never knew I could feel like this. >> It was just really bizarre. >> Police suspected it was a message from
00:58:25
her killer. They knew they had to move quickly to ID the man Jackie had been with. They had some luck when they
00:58:32
tracked down the women Jackie met that night. One of the friends that was with her had
00:58:38
gotten a business card from this person because he was a fitness instructor. >> Now that Gravine police had Charles
00:58:47
Bryant's name, they learned about that restraining order. >> So, in my eyes, that played into [music]
00:58:55
him as being a good suspect. >> Grapevine police called Captain Pulk, who was in the middle of a road race.
00:59:04
The first thing he told me was Charles Bryant was their main suspect in Jackie's murder. And I immediately just
00:59:10
sat down on a park bench in the middle of the race. It floored me. >> Bryant [music] was emerging as a strong
00:59:16
suspect, but Gravine police did not have physical evidence [music] connecting him to Jackie's death. So for
00:59:24
now, Bryant was free and Pulk was worried about what he might do next. >> I called Caitlyn and I just asked,
00:59:31
"Where are you?" I was like, "Does this have to do with the murder that happened
00:59:35
in Grapevine?" And he's like, "I I I can't tell. I can't specify that to you, Caitlyn,
00:59:42
but are you safe right now." >> And what did you say? >> I said, "I think [music] so."
00:59:48
>> She might have been wrong. In the days after Jackie's murder, Charles Bryant sent Caitlyn several emails, including
00:59:56
this picture, writing on it, "First kiss [music] under this tree. Once upon a time, that photo was taken at Grapevine
01:00:05
Lake. >> He might [music] have taken that picture that same day that Jackie was killed.
01:00:22
It was September [music] 2016 and Caitlyn Matthysse, Charles Bryant's ex-girlfriend, was very [music]
01:00:29
worried he might have been involved in the brutal murder at Grapevine Lake just days before.
01:00:35
>> I was waiting for more news to come out cuz at that point they hadn't even um
01:00:40
arrested him yet. >> Were you worried he was going to come after you? >> I was. I thought that's exactly what he was
01:00:48
going to do. >> The emails and picture Bryant had recently sent Caitlyn were proof that he
01:00:54
was still thinking about her in the days after Jackie was killed. But they were also proof of something else.
01:01:01
>> It was prohibited for Charles to communicate with her in any manner. And if he did, he would have been violating
01:01:07
that order. Captain Poke thought they could use those violations to help the Grapevine police who didn't have enough
01:01:15
to make an arrest yet. >> I told the detective we can get a warrant signed on some evidence we just
01:01:20
got and at least, you know, get him off the street. >> You go by Charles, you go by Dean.
01:01:26
Charles. Okay. >> Charles Bryant was arrested on September 18th for violating Caitlyn's restraining
01:01:33
order. Grapevine detectives were hoping they'd soon find more evidence connecting him to Jackie's death.
01:01:40
>> He's brought to the Gravine Police Department for an interview. And right away, he's beginning to distance himself
01:01:47
from having any almost any interaction with Jackie. >> Recognize who she is? >> Hey, Senator Barb.
01:01:57
>> And at the same time, we began serving a search warrant for his residence. What can you tell me about her?
01:02:06
>> That's about it. I guess >> it had been 4 days since Jackie's [music] body was found. Plenty of time
01:02:13
to dispose of any possible evidence, but Captain Luna at Grapevine PD says they found a lot at Bryant's home, including
01:02:22
a large militarystyle knife. >> You know what? Her purse was found in there, too.
01:02:30
Bryant had no way to answer for any of it, including two more items police found while he was in custody.
01:02:37
Video of him buying a shovel the night Jackie disappeared and a kitty pool missing from his backyard that matched
01:02:44
the one Jackie's body was found in. >> We have video of you with this girl. >> Show me.
01:02:51
>> You're at the bar. You're walking around Walmart at 4:00 in the morning buying a shovel. I can talk
01:02:59
to her. >> She's found dead in a pool that came from your backyard. >> He even got to the point at the end of
01:03:08
his interview with our detective where he said, "Well, I must have done it. I I I don't remember doing anything.
01:03:15
>> Everything points to me. It's like I had to have done it." >> An open and shut [music] case. Not even
01:03:21
close. Although there was overwhelming evidence that Bryant had disposed of Jackie's body, there was no evidence yet
01:03:28
that confirmed how Jackie had died or that Bryant had killed her. >> And that's when they reached out to me
01:03:35
and asked if I could come in and spend some time with him and and interview him and see what I could get
01:03:40
>> because you have a an expertise in dealing with this kind of personality, >> right? This is kind of my calling. Jim
01:03:49
Holland is the senior member of an elite team of Texas Rangers, a select division
01:03:54
of the Texas State Police. He specializes in interviewing some of the country's most prolific killers and
01:04:01
analyzing their thoughts. >> Hey, how you doing today? So good. >> And Charles Bryant seemed to fit the
01:04:07
bill. >> Jackie's body had been dismembered before being set on fire. How do you
01:04:13
begin to understand a mind that would do that? A lot of these people, they actually want to tell you. Uh they want
01:04:21
to tell someone. >> At first, Bryant kept to his claim that he didn't remember a thing.
01:04:27
>> Yeah. It's crazy cuz I really don't remember reading this quote. >> The idea that he doesn't remember doing
01:04:33
it. Oh, no. It's absolute nonsense. >> So, you knew Charles Bryant remembered exactly what had happened?
01:04:41
>> Oh, yes. Absolutely. >> And your job was just to pull that out of him, >> right? You know, you're not a violent
01:04:48
dude. You haven't uh haven't really been in trouble. You >> Holland says his strategy was to try to
01:04:54
make friends with Bryant >> and get him talking. >> You know, you obviously work out. I
01:04:58
mean, you're a stud, right? >> You You don't want him to look at you as a law enforcement officer. You want him
01:05:03
to think of you as a friend, a compadre, a drinking buddy. You know, you kind of
01:05:07
go back to what two boys would talk about in a high school locker room, you know, about the the girl they kissed on
01:05:13
Friday night. You don't have any issues with girls? >> I'm not any just blowing my mind.
01:05:19
>> And Holland suggested possible scenarios to see if Bryant would take it from there.
01:05:25
>> Okay. So So something happens. Bam. There there's a snap and we need to figure out what that is.
01:05:31
And maybe, you know, she got mad. Maybe she's giving you all the signals and and
01:05:36
then cut you off. I mean, there could be all kinds of different things going on here, right? I mean, chicks, right? You
01:05:45
know, chicks, you >> know, as we're going through the interview, there's I'm watching him. I'm
01:05:50
um I guess in a way a human lie detector. I'm um I'm reading him and I'm throwing things at him in which I know
01:05:56
the answer and I'm looking for his responses, whether they're false uh or true. >> Under the pretense of helping Bryant
01:06:06
remember what happened, Holland suggested they do a memory exercise. What we're going to do is these mind
01:06:12
exercises, which means we're going to move back in time. >> Bryant, who first claimed he didn't know
01:06:18
who Jackie was, then seemed to remember her. He said he could see her coming into the bar.
01:06:25
>> She was looking for a job. That's what it was. >> And offering her a ride. Any sense, I
01:06:30
probably would offer to ride home. There's tons of things in this that I can tell you, right?
01:06:36
>> Over a pizza. As Holland tried to steer Bryant to confess, he probed about a possible motive.
01:06:42
>> But what does everyone want to know? >> And and yeah, why? And who's the only
01:06:48
one who can tell us that? You know, >> Holland eventually cut to the chase and asked if what happened with Jackie was
01:06:55
really all about Caitlyn. >> Was there a time that you pictured her as this girlfriend that did you wrong or
01:07:01
did anything like that come into play? The level of nonsense that came out of his mouth at at different points about
01:07:11
that was just astonishing. >> Do you think Charles Bryant looks around the bar and sees Jacqueline
01:07:19
Vandagramriff? Ah, she looks like Caitlyn. >> It wouldn't surprise me if he actually
01:07:24
mistook her at first, you know, that saw her from behind and thought, man, you know, my ex is here. I think in his mind
01:07:31
that whole night, I think that's what he pictured >> after the [music] murder. Right after
01:07:40
the murder, he took Jackie's phone [music] and used it to add me on Facebook. [music]
01:08:01
When Texas Ranger Jim Holland was brought [music] in to interrogate Charles Bryant, the nature of the crime
01:08:07
made him wonder if Bryant's brain was wired like the serial killers he'd encountered. [music]
01:08:13
In what way is the mind of a serial killer different from common criminal? >> You know, generally people like that
01:08:20
tend to be uh sociopathic or or psychopathic mindsets and it's just a different game. Psychopath would be
01:08:26
someone who's basically born with a a scar on their brain. And a sociopathic mindset is um something that society has
01:08:33
brought on. Something happened to them that changed their psyche. >> Something maybe had happened in his
01:08:39
childhood. >> Christy Dixon got [music] a glimpse of Charles Bryant's psyche firsthand. She
01:08:45
met him on a dating app the year before Jackie Vandergri's death. >> He seemed pretty quiet and reserved,
01:08:52
almost like he was shy. By the second or third time that we were hanging out, um,
01:08:58
I noticed he was getting pretty attached pretty quickly and I just was not there.
01:09:04
It was very casual to me. >> After she broke things off, he continued to pursue her. Brian even told her that
01:09:12
he loved her. Christy says they'd never even shared a kiss. >> It was a little too much, too soon, too
01:09:19
fast. I work with abused children and that to me kind of stuck out. >> Christy says that's when she asked Brian
01:09:27
about his childhood. He told her he had been molested, [music] a claim that 48 hours could not independently verify.
01:09:35
>> I remember thinking that makes sense. I'm not a psychologist or anything, but
01:09:39
his behavior sort of came off to me as maybe an abused child or someone who is just needing that extra love that most
01:09:48
people probably aren't seeking. >> Still, Christy thought he was harmless and stayed in touch.
01:09:56
>> I thought he was just a really nice guy and felt sorry for him. >> I'm not an angry guy. I'm not
01:10:01
aggressive. As Ranger Holland continued his interrogation, he wanted to see if Bryant would answer the key question.
01:10:09
How did Jackie Vandergri [music] die? Her autopsy didn't provide many answers. >> There's a lot we didn't know. We didn't
01:10:17
know where it occurred. We didn't know exactly how it broke down. And so that's what my goal was.
01:10:21
>> Holland wondered if the crime had a sexual element, but initially [music] Bryant denied anything sexual took
01:10:27
place. You >> never recall having sex? You don't? >> No. Normally I recall having sex.
01:10:34
>> After three more hours of interrogation, Bryant said [music] they did have sex.
01:10:38
Kinky sex. According to Bryant, Jackie wanted to be choked with an oversized zip tie that just happened to be in his
01:10:46
car. >> She didn't fight you in any way when when you were putting on. >> The consensual sex aspect of it was was
01:10:54
one of those things that that no, I I felt strongly that he was lying about. And Bryant also claimed that neither he
01:11:01
nor Jackie had tightened the zip tie intentionally. >> Okay. So, you think it just tightened up
01:11:07
on its own? Basically, not like had a snag on something or >> Okay. Then what happened?
01:11:16
Trying to remember she's not responsive. Shaker. >> Are you just thinking this is a complete
01:11:26
and total lie? Yeah, it's total fabrication. Did he kill her? Yes, absolutely. When you deal with these
01:11:31
people, it's it's so rare that you would sit down with them and they would just tell you a toz, this is what occurred.
01:11:39
And they're always going to leave out things that make them look really bad. In other words, there's an excuse. I'm
01:11:45
not a bad person. I didn't mean for this to happen. It was an accident. Although
01:11:50
Bryant was evasive about how Jackie died, as Holland led him through the memory exercise, Bryant went into
01:11:57
gruesome detail about how he disposed of her body. >> Karen, what do you see in the pool?
01:12:06
>> Garbage bags. >> All right. Now, tell me exactly what you see occurring after that.
01:12:13
>> Go down the trail and what happens next? it on fire. >> The fire? Why do you burn the body?
01:12:26
Evidence. [music] >> Even if he couldn't admit to murder, Bryant seemed to waver between denial
01:12:32
and acceptance. At one point, conceding that the evidence showed he had to have done it.
01:12:39
>> I can't fight it. It's obviously me. After an intense six-hour interrogation and with mounting evidence, Charles
01:12:47
Bryant was finally charged with Jackie Vandergri's murder, Christy Dixon could not believe the news.
01:12:55
>> That night, I actually was scared to go to sleep. I had nightmares. He had never
01:13:00
threatened me before, but just the fact that someone that I felt that I knew had
01:13:05
murdered someone potentially, I was terrified. For Caitlyn Matthysse, her worst fears
01:13:11
were confirmed. And when she tried to learn more about the woman Bryant killed, she made a shocking discovery on
01:13:20
Facebook. >> I looked up Jackie Vandergri [music] and I realized, "Oh my god, I'm already friends with
01:13:26
her." >> Caitlyn says that digital friendship began after Jackie's death. You got a
01:13:33
friend request from Jackie Vandergri. >> Yes. Caitlyn believes that Facebook friend request could only have come from
01:13:41
one person, Charles Bryant. >> That really sounds diabolical. >> It was. >> Brian pleaded not guilty to Jackie's
01:13:52
murder. His defense was the same story he told Ranger Holland. >> These two young people met. They
01:14:00
consumed a lot of alcohol. Our position is they had sex, kinky sex, albeit. [music] and she died.
01:14:08
>> Brian's courtappointed defense attorney, Glennice McGinty, says Jackie Vandergri's death was a tragic [music]
01:14:15
accident. >> Are you telling me there's no evidence that Charles Bryant killed Jackie
01:14:19
Vandergri? >> Not direct evidence. Prosecutors Lucas Allen and Anna Hernandez believed the evidence they did
01:14:27
have would be enough, but they also knew that most jurors want a motive, >> and they weren't sure they'd be able to
01:14:35
tell this jury why they thought Jackie was targeted. >> You have to wonder what is driving this
01:14:41
person to do something like that. In your minds, there is no doubt that the murder of Jackie Vandergri is connected
01:14:49
to the stalking of Caitlyn Matthysse. >> Yes, I think we believe that definitely.
01:14:55
She might have just been victim number one with Caitlyn being victim number two.
01:15:00
>> To help prove this, the prosecution was hoping the judge would allow Caitlyn to
01:15:05
testify against her ex-boyfriend [music] turned stalker in open court. I felt sick.
01:15:26
Jackie was the most special person. >> I know I'll never meet someone like her again.
01:15:34
In April 2018, a year and a half after Jackie Vandergri's untimely [music] death, Charles Bryant was standing trial
01:15:42
for her murder. Her friend Jackie Tan could not bring [music] herself to be there.
01:15:47
>> I wanted to go, but I'm going to be honest. I couldn't look at him. Charles Bryant
01:15:57
would have to answer for a long list of items the prosecution had collected, including that giant zip tie, the shovel
01:16:04
he purchased the night Jackie died, and that large knife, which police believe [music] he used to cut up her body, all
01:16:11
found at his house. >> This is something that you pray every night does not happen to your child when
01:16:18
they go off to school. Investigators had also found a stun gun in his car with Jackie's DNA on it, but it appears
01:16:26
Jackie was spared at least one horror. Prosecutors Anna Hernandez and Lucas Allen say the medical examiner was able
01:16:34
to run tests on Jackie's remains and found no evidence of sexual assault. >> There was zero evidence to support that
01:16:42
they had any type of sexual encounter. Prosecutors say this undermines Bryant's story that this was kinky sex gone
01:16:49
wrong. >> His attorney, Glennice McGinty. >> How could they have had sex if there's
01:16:55
no evidence? >> No evidence to the degree of no sperm found in her. That doesn't mean they
01:17:02
didn't have some type of consensual sexual uh encounter. >> She likes it making out. Prosecutors
01:17:09
chose not to play that interrogation tape for the jury, >> which meant Bryant would have to take
01:17:14
the stand if he wanted jurors to hear his version of events. He elected not to. Shouldn't he be explaining to the
01:17:23
jury why he's not at fault for her death? >> And then that flies in the face of our
01:17:28
constitutional rights. But the defense knows it has an uphill battle to convince a jury that Brian is not guilty
01:17:36
of murder while admitting he [music] disposed of Jackie's body. If he says it was just an accident, why didn't he call
01:17:44
for help? >> Sure, fair question. Intoxicated, panicked, and his mind would not process
01:17:51
all of that to make a rational decision that you or I would have made. Call the police. But Bryant went further than
01:17:59
simply discarding Jackie's body. Much, much further. And prosecutors wanted the jury to hear their theory.
01:18:07
>> A huge piece of that story was the stalking. >> But before the jury could hear from
01:18:16
Caitlyn, the judge would have to rule on whether or not to allow this evidence. >> How is he his boyfriend? Local TV
01:18:23
cameras were there when without the jury present, >> Caitlyn took the stand and faced her ex.
01:18:31
>> I was disgusted just to see his face. >> Did he look at you? Did you meet eyes?
01:18:36
>> At one point, we had to. When they made me describe to the court what he was wearing and he just had this smirk on
01:18:44
his face. >> There's nothing really that can prepare you for that, is there? >> No. The second I walked out those doors,
01:18:51
I started balling. >> In the end, the judge ruled against Caitlyn being able to tell her story to
01:18:58
the jury. >> It was definitely a real blow to us. >> That was the right decision.
01:19:04
>> Why? >> He had not been convicted of anything with Caitlyn. >> As the jury went out to deliberate, the
01:19:10
defense was hopeful. >> I don't believe that they could prove that he murdered her. I don't think that
01:19:17
they prove that. >> But would the jury agree? They were out for a little over two hours [music] and
01:19:23
even without hearing Caitlyn's story. >> We the jury find the defendant Charles D. Bryant Jr. guilty of the offense of
01:19:30
murder. >> Charles Bryant was found guilty of Jackie Vandergri's murder and dismemberment. To your way of thinking,
01:19:40
was justice done? [music] >> Yes. I knew she was up there and said, "Thank you."
01:19:48
>> Because prosecutors had no evidence Bryant committed another crime at the same time as Jackie's murder, like rape
01:19:54
or kidnapping, he was not eligible for the death penalty. He was sentenced to life.
01:20:01
>> As terrible as this is [music] to say, but I wanted the death penalty. >> Under Texas law, Bryant could be
01:20:08
eligible for parole after 30 years. Caitlyn says she feels like she's still looking over her shoulder and always
01:20:16
will be. >> I fear that when he gets out, he'll come and find me and do something to either
01:20:23
me or someone that I love. That's my biggest fear. >> Ever since this happened, Caitlyn and
01:20:31
her mother have been thinking about Jackie and her family. >> This whole time, I wanted to reach out,
01:20:38
but I didn't know how they felt. Nearly 2 years after Jackie died, they finally met.
01:20:45
>> Her grandmother, bless her heart, she immediately came up to us and to Caitlyn
01:20:50
and hugged her and said, "I've [music] been so worried about you these past 2 years."
01:20:56
>> Wow. Karen, why is this the part that gets you? He took away their little girl
01:21:08
and the the pain I saw in their eyes. I could feel their pain. >> And yet the grandmother was telling
01:21:17
Caitlyn she was worried about Caitlyn. >> Yes. >> You sound like very special people.
01:21:24
>> They are. Caitlyn says she struggled with the fact that she survived and Jackie did not.
01:21:38
This so easily could have been you. [music] >> And some days I wish it was. It's just the guilt that eats me up
01:21:47
sometimes. I would have easily taken her place if I had the chance. >> [music] >> 48 hours. Don't miss an episode.
01:22:23
Heat. [music] [music] [music] Heat. >> [music] >> I don't think the grieving ever ends.
01:23:04
It evolves. We've been wanting to tell Amy's story and just felt like we weren't ready
01:23:11
before, but now we feel like we can do it. I was so proud of her and what she's accomplished.
01:23:21
>> Oh my goodness. Fire eater, [music] dancer, photographer, model, therapist. She wanted to fix people. You might
01:23:37
[music] want to speak to this woman, Dr. Amy Harwick. >> As a licensed marriage and family
01:23:41
therapist, I see all kinds of different things. anxiety, depression, change [music] of life stuff, breakups, moves,
01:23:46
things like that. Amy helped me so much. I had gone to see Amy because [music] I had dealt with a relationship that got
01:23:57
very out of control and turned into a very serious [music] stalking case. >> Jealousy can become dangerous, even lead
01:24:04
to violence. It can lead to death. [music] >> I want emergency 434. >> Yeah. Somebody just attacked my
01:24:13
roommate. Please get a cop here. >> I just was woken up by screaming like blood curdling [music]
01:24:21
scream. And then I realized that the screaming wasn't stopping or slowing down. And I yelled up, you know, Amy.
01:24:29
And I heard choking right after that. I knew we were in trouble. This is for real. This is really happening. I knew
01:24:37
we needed help. Like I'm going to have to make a break for it. When the first responders first got that
01:24:44
call, where did they go? >> They came right here to this house. >> Hey, sir. Hi.
01:24:50
>> How can I help you? >> My roommate was attacked. I know it. I heard I heard it. She's screaming. She
01:24:55
was thrown to the ground. >> Okay, hold on. Okay. >> Michael Herman was out here. He's
01:24:59
frantic. He's nervous. >> They didn't know what to think of this guy. >> Right. Right. They had no idea of who he
01:25:06
was, why he was involved in all this. They knew he was rambling on. They had some doubts about him originally.
01:25:13
>> I think there's >> Okay, sir. Do me a favor. Do me a favor. Calm down. Calm down. Other than your
01:25:16
roommate, is there anybody else inside the house? >> I don't know. I don't know.
01:25:20
>> Thanks. >> And I'm walking them around to the back of the house. And it's dark back there. There's some
01:25:28
light, but it's pretty dark back there. >> And when they get around to the back now, they can see a body on the on the
01:25:34
ground. >> Sir, sir, come here. I remember not knowing what I was seeing, you know,
01:25:42
afterwards realizing it was Amy. >> Really, what hit me was [music] the way that she was killed. So heartbreaking
01:25:50
that her of all people had to be taken in the way that she was. I said, "I know who did it." [music] I
01:25:58
just knew it. I was the only person she was afraid of. It's the only one she was
01:26:04
ever afraid of. >> [music] >> Heat. Hey, Heat. >> [music] [music] >> Take a seat. Take a seat.
01:26:53
>> Oh my god. >> Hey, we we need to we need to have this. >> What happened to you? In the early
01:26:59
morning darkness of February 15th, 2020, police body cameras were recording as Amy Harwick, barely [music] clinging to
01:27:08
life outside of her Hollywood Hills home, was taken to a hospital. >> If she says anything in the hospital,
01:27:15
I want you to know that. >> As EMTs tried to save Amy, officers from the Los Angeles Police Department tried
01:27:23
to make sense of the scene. Amy's roommate, Michael Herman, appeared to be the only witness. He told officers an
01:27:31
intruder had attacked Amy. >> I swear to you, that was a struggle ever. >> But is there any sign of the intruder?
01:27:39
>> There wasn't. There wasn't. [music] >> Scott Masterson was the lead detective.
01:27:45
>> All we knew when we showed up was that a female was found on the ground in the
01:27:51
back of the house. We're wide open to what really went on. even open to the possibility that this wasn't foul play
01:27:58
at all. When officers searched the threestory house, they found Amy's purse, jacket, and broken necklace on
01:28:06
the floor. Not exactly telltale signs of a crime. And a discovery on Amy's balcony made them wonder if this could
01:28:15
have been an [music] accident or even suicide. On the deck of the balcony, we found a mediumsiz syringe and it was
01:28:24
loaded with a yellowish brown substance. >> Yeah, it's heroin. >> When the officers first saw that, they
01:28:32
thought, "What was this? Some kind of drug dealer?" >> Yeah, exactly. Or maybe she was using
01:28:38
drugs and fell over. They They didn't know. >> Sir, do you know her history of drug
01:28:42
use? >> No, she's sober. She doesn't drink it. She didn't even drink. >> She doesn't drink.
01:28:46
>> She doesn't even drink. She's sober. And when I first saw it, I said, "That's not
01:28:49
heroin." >> Not heroin. But he didn't know what it was. >> But what did you think? Wasn't that odd?
01:28:56
>> Very odd. Very strange. >> And very strange to investigators, says Mastersonson, was that Michael had blood
01:29:05
on his shirt. And although he said he was a roommate, he didn't have his keys to the house when first responders
01:29:12
arrived. >> They don't know if he's part of the problem, part of the solution. He may
01:29:17
be. >> So, you know, they're thinking, was he in a fight with her? >> That was not true. Michael Herman is
01:29:26
telling his story publicly for the first time about the events on the night of Valentine's Day 2020 and into the early
01:29:35
hours of the next day. >> The word nightmare isn't even a big enough word, is it?
01:29:40
>> No. No. >> Amy had gone out with friends and Michael was in his downstairs bedroom.
01:29:46
I'd been mostly nodding on and off. I remember what sounded like a plate drop and being woken up by it.
01:29:55
>> Thinking it was Amy's cat, he says he fell back asleep. He later woke up to Amy returning home and that blood
01:30:03
curdling scream. He then heard what sounded like Amy being thrown to the floor and later choked.
01:30:10
>> The sound made you feel that there was someone up with her. I knew I knew for a
01:30:14
fact there was somebody up there after that trying to listen. You don't know for sure what's going on. Was he acting
01:30:21
alone? Was there more than one person? I start rushing to look for my phone. >> But Michael says he couldn't find his
01:30:29
phone. He then started yelling to scare the intruder. >> I remember thinking like this is so much
01:30:35
worse than any horror movie I've ever seen. You're realizing that to save her like you've got to make the decision to
01:30:41
leave her. was such a hard decision. >> Michael fled the house to get help, but when he got to the front gate, it was
01:30:51
locked. He climbed over a fence, cutting himself on spiked rods. Frantically, he
01:30:57
ran to the next door neighbor's house. That neighbor's surveillance camera shows Michael knocking on the door, but
01:31:05
no one answers. >> I just kind of panicked, you know, feeling like a a lot of time had already
01:31:10
passed. He then ran into someone on the street and used their phone to call 911.
01:31:16
>> You guys need to get a a cop here quick. >> Sir, the officers are on the way.
01:31:23
>> After spending hours at the scene, investigators found something in the light of day that they had [music]
01:31:29
missed before. A broken window from a French door on the ground floor with blood nearby. And so as soon as we saw
01:31:38
that, okay, this is our point of entry. We have a crime here. Somebody broke into this house and did this.
01:31:45
>> So this was the first piece of evidence that said to you, Mike Herman might be
01:31:49
telling you the truth. >> Correct. Correct. >> Know that he's not in the house. >> Later at the Hollywood Police Station,
01:31:56
Michael told Masterson about the person he believed was responsible. >> Told them she had an ex-boyfriend that
01:32:02
she had had a restraining order against um that had expired. I don't know his name, but Robert would know his name.
01:32:10
>> Robert is Robert Koshlin, one of Amy's closest friends. We first spoke to Robert in 2020. He told us what he told
01:32:19
police. >> They were like, you know, do you know who might have, you know, could have
01:32:23
done this? And I was like, "Yeah, Gareth." Gareth Pur House, an old boyfriend who
01:32:30
Amy had had a troubled relationship with when they dated almost 10 years earlier.
01:32:36
>> I was like, "You need to go find this guy right away." >> Masterson then broke the news to Robert
01:32:42
and Michael. Amy had died at the hospital. She was 38 years old. How difficult was it to hear that Amy didn't
01:32:50
make it? >> It's still difficult to hear. As investigators worked to find Amy's ex-boyfriend, they also tried to find
01:33:00
Amy's parents, Penny and Tom Harwick, in Pennsylvania. The Harwicks remember getting ready for bed when there was a
01:33:09
knock at the door. It was the local police and he said, "Amy's been murdered." It it's it's a blur right now.
01:33:26
>> I I don't know how to describe it. >> Just devastated. >> Penny and Tom's life with Amy began when
01:33:34
they adopted her as an 11-month-old baby. >> Do you remember the first time you saw
01:33:41
your little girl? >> Oh, I absolutely remember. Kind of like a fairy tale. It's like here's this
01:33:46
beautiful little girl sitting there. she's going to come home with us and and be our daughter. It was wonderful.
01:33:54
>> And believe it or not, she had a headful of curls >> and her hair was honey colored. By the
01:33:59
time she was four, it was so dark. >> Around that same time, the Harwicks adopted their son, [music] Chris.
01:34:05
>> And she was okay with it for a couple of weeks and then she said, "Well, when is
01:34:11
he going back?" And I said, "Well, he's not. He's your brother. He's going to be here forever.
01:34:18
How would you describe your sister? >> Amy was a very interesting uh character. She was into heavy metal and rock music,
01:34:27
going to concerts. >> And Amy got her parents in on the action, too. >> She turned Penny and I into metal heads
01:34:34
or headers. >> Seriously. >> Seriously. >> She would always manage to get either
01:34:41
backstage or to meet the performers. That's just who she was. After high school, Amy met Tommy Decker,
01:34:50
a drummer from LA, at a local concert. The two began dating long distance. [music]
01:34:56
>> And then she said, "I want to move out there. I want to move out to LA." >> In 2001, she headed west. She was 20
01:35:04
years old. >> She needed to find out who she was. She needed to do that for herself.
01:35:11
Soon, the couple tied the knot. But after a three-year marriage, Tommy and Amy divorced.
01:35:19
It wasn't until 2009 that Amy would go on to meet Gareth Purouse, the man police suspected had killed her, and
01:35:27
whom they were now searching for. Heartbreak for a local neighborhood after a well-known therapist was [music]
01:35:44
killed at her Hollywood Hills home. People have left flowers here for Amy Harwick and her friends and family are
01:35:52
hoping for justice. >> I was very confident that, you know, Gareth Pur House was our guy. [music]
01:36:01
Within 13 hours of Amy Harwick's death on February 15th, 2020, police descended on Gareth Purous's beachside
01:36:10
neighborhood to arrest him. >> You could tell he was playing the old What's this about? Why do you want to
01:36:18
talk? Who? Uh oh. Yeah, I know Amy. Sure. Yeah. He basically was saying, I've been at home.
01:36:25
Detectives weren't buying that story or the explanation Pers gave for what appeared to be a fresh black eye. He
01:36:34
blamed a home renovation. >> I said, "I think you better get a contractor. If you get a hold of a power
01:36:40
tool, you're going to be in real trouble." >> Pers was charged with Amy's murder on
01:36:46
February 19th, [music] 2020. and detectives were learning about his troubled past, beginning not long after
01:36:53
he and Amy began dating in 2009. >> They seemed like [music] a pretty fun couple and kind of nice to see, you
01:37:00
know, friends get together. >> When we first spoke to Rudy Torres in 2020, [music] he talked about how the
01:37:06
couple met. Amy, then working as a model and dancer, would often run into Pur House, an events photographer, at flashy
01:37:14
[music] LA parties. If you would meet him, you would think he's charming, little goofy, kind of dorky.
01:37:21
>> He wasn't a musician like she normally dated. >> No. No. And she was trying to break that
01:37:27
habit. [laughter] >> Hurst house was also a computer expert and an aspiring comedian.
01:37:33
>> Here he is one more time for Gareth. Everybody, come on. Bad news for the entertainers over there. The best day of
01:37:39
your career is going to be the days after you die. But oddly says Amy's mother, Penny, her daughter didn't share
01:37:46
much else about him. >> And why do you think that is? >> Well, maybe she was already feeling like
01:37:53
he wasn't who she thought he was. >> And Penny says her daughter never shared how volatile the 2-year relationship had
01:38:03
become. >> She had gone through quite a bit with Gareth. There was there was a number of
01:38:08
police reports that were made. Detectives learned that Amy had called police to report several violent
01:38:14
incidents over the years. She said that on multiple occasions, Gareth Purouse had choked, suffocated, and punched her
01:38:23
with a closed fist. And she even documented her injuries with these photos. But Amy's father, Tom, says Amy didn't
01:38:33
share just how bad things had gotten. >> She didn't go into details. Do you think
01:38:39
she just wanted to protect the two of you? >> I think so. >> Yes. >> After Amy ended the relationship, she
01:38:45
took steps to protect herself, [music] obtaining a restraining order against Pers in 2012. But while she was trying
01:38:54
to distance herself from him, Rudy says Pers could not let her go. >> He always wanted to get a hold of her.
01:39:02
And I used to tell him that he should just leave her alone. And he wouldn't take no for an answer. and then he cut
01:39:07
me off. [music] >> In the years after their breakup, Amy told her parents that her home was
01:39:14
broken into. On one occasion, strangely, the only things taken were personal photos. And on another, her computer was
01:39:24
wiped clean. And did she think it was Gareth? >> She did. >> Oh, yes. >> But no way of proving
01:39:30
>> No way of proving anything. Of course, we were worried, but then we also felt
01:39:34
like, well, she's done with him, it's over, and it was never over. >> And [music] Penny says Amy was thriving,
01:39:45
getting a degree to become a licensed therapist. [music] >> Hi, this is Dr. Amy Harwick, licensed
01:39:50
marriage and family therapist. >> Amy posted therapy videos on her social media.
01:39:55
>> You [music] can seek therapy to address an issue like depression, anxiety, a breakup. You can also seek therapy to be
01:40:02
a better you. >> But even as Amy focused on helping others, she couldn't quite shake the
01:40:08
shadows from her past. She lost a job as a youth counselor, Penny says after a prospective employer was anonymously
01:40:17
sent nude photos of her. Amy believed Pers was behind it. >> She was really upset about it and then
01:40:24
she wasn't sure what she was going to do. Despite that obstacle, Amy studied for a PhD in human sexuality, earning
01:40:33
the title doctor. She took a special interest in marginalized groups, sex workers, and vulnerable women. And she
01:40:42
doesn't stop. She just >> she bounced right back. >> I wrote a book called The New Sex Bible
01:40:46
for Women. >> No, she didn't stop. She would work with these groups of people that she felt
01:40:51
were under reppresented and needed help. >> What was Dr. Harwick's reputation. >> Dr. Amy Harwick had an amazing
01:41:00
reputation. I had a lot of mutual friends that had seen her. Emily Sears, a model who's graced the cover of Maxim
01:41:08
magazine, first started seeing Dr. Amy Harwick in 2017, in part to help her overcome anxiety she
01:41:17
had around dating and intimacy. I felt that she was relatable, but I didn't know just exactly how relatable it was.
01:41:25
>> Even when she opened up to Amy about an abusive ex-boyfriend who had stalked her, Emily says Amy never told her about
01:41:34
her own similar experience. >> And that still is something that I am struggling to process knowing that I was
01:41:43
sitting across from her and she had been through so much that was similar. As Amy
01:41:49
was helping Emily work through her issues around dating, Amy was taking a chance on a new man in her own life.
01:41:57
>> Happy Valentine's Day. >> Drew Carey, comedian and host of The Price is Right on CBS.
01:42:03
>> She was obviously really beautiful. She was really smart. She just wanted to help people, especially women.
01:42:09
>> We spoke to Carrie in 2022. He said it wasn't long after meeting Amy at a party
01:42:16
that he decided she was the one. >> And I said, "If this keeps going the way it's going, I'm going to marry her."
01:42:23
>> And what happened? >> What happened was he ended up taking her to Paris on New Year's Eve and proposing
01:42:27
to her and she accepted. >> Drew and Amy shared the news on his show soon after.
01:42:34
>> I'd like to introduce you to my brand new lovely fiance, Amy. How you doing, Amy? [cheering]
01:42:40
But instead of spending the rest of their lives together, later that year, the couple split up. How did she take
01:42:48
the breakup? She was devastated. I mean, she broke it off. And I think that's because, well, fame was getting in the
01:42:56
way. >> That's because, says Penny. Amy feared that with the added public attention she
01:43:02
was getting while on the arm of a celebrity, she could be putting herself in danger. You know who
01:43:11
was watching and it made her worry. [music] >> [music] [music] >> It hit home a lot after Amy passed in
01:43:41
the way that she did. [music] How dangerous it really is for women. >> Emily Sears, one of Amy Harwick's
01:43:49
[music] therapy clients, was shaken by the news of her death. >> The reality is we're not safe. Nobody is
01:43:56
>> in dealing with some domestic violence cuz this was a bit different because the
01:44:00
way Gareth Pers acted in this case was more methodical. >> When Deputy District Attorney Victor
01:44:06
Avala took on the case, he was particularly troubled by evidence that Pur House had broken into Amy's house,
01:44:14
hoping to catch her off guard when she arrived home. >> And that's at the point that we decided
01:44:19
to charge not only the murder charge, but also the special circumstance of lying and wait. These are the crime
01:44:24
scene notes. Avala along with his co-consel, Deputy District Attorney Katherine Mariano, reviewed surveillance
01:44:31
and body camera video, interviews with Amy's family and friends, and compiled a timeline of the events leading up to the
01:44:40
murder. >> Became very clear to me that his obsession drove his intent to kill her.
01:44:49
They believe that Pur House's obsession with Amy was ignited when he saw her at this award show about a month before her
01:44:56
murder. It was a chance encounter. Pur House working the gig as a photographer. Amy smiling for the cameras enjoying the
01:45:06
limelight. But moments earlier, off camera, witnesses say an angry purse house confronted her. Penny Harwick
01:45:14
recalls Amy telling her she hadn't seen him in almost a decade. [music] >> He called her a [ __ ] and he told her
01:45:22
she ruined his life and she just told me how afraid she was because he was crying
01:45:27
and causing a huge scene and she said, "Mom," I went into therapist mode. I just tried
01:45:34
to calm him. >> After talking [music] to Gareth for almost an hour, Amy left the event very
01:45:41
worried. What's your reaction, [music] Penny, when she was telling you this? That's
01:45:46
when we talked about security and she said she was going to get pepper spray. >> We decided to start sharing location so
01:45:53
I could track where she was. >> Her close friend, Robert Klin, says that sharing her phone's location was one of
01:45:59
the few things Amy felt she could do to feel safe. The restraining order against
01:46:05
Pur House had long expired and because Pur House hadn't expressly threatened her. Robert says she didn't think going
01:46:13
to police would help. Still, he says Amy was very concerned. >> That's when she said, "Look, if
01:46:22
something happens to me, he did it." >> She actually said that. >> Yeah. She literally said that.
01:46:26
>> She's thinking that he can cause me harm. And the very next day, he finds her phone on the internet and starts
01:46:32
texting her. >> Gareth sent Amy a series of texts and later left her a tearfilled voicemail.
01:46:40
>> I have so much I need to say. Please give me a chance to just say it. Please,
01:46:49
please. >> That's when prosecutors say Amy decided to block his number. I believe up until
01:46:56
that point he was trying to manipulate his way back into her life at the point that she made the decision to block him.
01:47:02
That was her choice and she had that right to do that. >> Prosecutors say PCL started to plan to
01:47:07
kill Amy on Valentine's Day. >> Was that just a random date? Absolutely not. I think he wanted to make a
01:47:14
statement by killing her on Valentine's Day. On February 14th, 2020, Amy went out
01:47:21
with a group of friends [music] around 700 p.m. Two hours later, say prosecutors, surveillance cameras from
01:47:28
her nextdoor neighbor's property were activated. >> You get those ring cameras that show a
01:47:34
person that looks just like Gareth Purouse with gloves. When he first comes into view, he covers the camera and when
01:47:41
the camera senses no more motion, it shuts off and then he hops over the fence >> into Amy's yard. Soon after, around 900
01:47:51
p.m., they believe Per House broke through that French door. >> And that's consistent [music] with
01:47:57
Michael Herman. He heard something breaking upstairs early in the evening >> and I think he just got into the house,
01:48:03
cut himself. I don't think he even realized he cut himself. leaving that blood police later found nearby. DNA
01:48:11
testing would confirm it belonged to Pur House. And Detective Mastersonson says where
01:48:19
Pur House went next was revealed by Amy's [music] unmade bed. >> I think he climbed in her bed. He was
01:48:26
there waiting for her for quite a while. >> How creepy is that? >> Crazy creepy.
01:48:34
That's where Mastersonson believes Amy found him 4 hours later when she arrived home a little after 1:00 a.m.
01:48:42
>> She walks into her bedroom and I think she just froze in shock and fear and the
01:48:48
one thing that was on the bed was her phone. So I think she actually threw her phone at him and turned and started to
01:48:54
run out of the bedroom. And she's screaming and they're fighting and they're wrestling.
01:49:00
>> How hard did Amy fight for her life? I think she fought with everything she had.
01:49:04
>> He had something that appeared to look like a bite mark on his bicep. >> And Pels also had that black eye. To us,
01:49:12
it was indicative of Amy fighting for her life, but she was obviously up against a much bigger, stronger
01:49:18
opponent. >> Prosecutors believe Purse House started choking Amy and that's when Michael
01:49:24
Herman yelled. They believe catching Pur House by surprise. And I think that plan
01:49:30
was definitely thwarted by the unbeknownsted presence of Michael Herman there. I just don't believe that he even
01:49:36
knew that somebody was home. In his panic, they believe Pur House dropped that syringe. Police found on the
01:49:42
balcony. It was months before lab tests revealed what it contained. Liquid nicotine.
01:49:50
>> A toxic poison that if injected into someone, it would kill them. >> Why kill her that way? I mean, with that
01:49:56
lethal dose of nicotine, people may not know what killed her. It may not be detected.
01:50:02
[music] >> With his original plan interrupted, prosecutors believe that Pur House
01:50:08
carried Amy, barely [music] conscious after being strangled to the thirdstory balcony.
01:50:14
>> He lifts her right over the rail and then drops her to kill her. >> Gareth Purels is caught on the
01:50:20
neighbor's camera popping back over the fence. With their suspect and theory of the
01:50:28
crime, the prosecutors were ready for trial. But they were surprised by Gareth Purous's [music]
01:50:36
defense, blaming Amy for what happened that night. In August [music] 2023, more than three
01:50:57
years after Amy Harwick's death, her accused killer, Gareth Purouse, [music] went on trial.
01:51:03
>> I almost didn't recognize him. >> Right. In their opening statements, prosecutors
01:51:09
Victor Avala and Katherine Mariano told jurors why and how they believe Pur House ended Amy's life [music] in the
01:51:18
early morning of February 15th, 2020. >> Dr. Amy Harwick was murdered by defendant Eric Hersile because he was
01:51:28
obsessed with her. He strangled her, lifted her up over the balcony, and dropped her to her death.
01:51:35
>> I just pray that Amy was unconscious when she was when she went over the balcony.
01:51:43
>> Tom and Penny sat through every second of the trial, even the most graphic moments.
01:51:49
>> I need to know what happened to my daughter. >> And we wanted to be there for Amy.
01:51:53
>> Yeah. >> Through the whole ordeal. >> But the Harwicks were not alone. Also in
01:51:58
the courtroom, a small army of Amy's friends, including Rudy Torres. >> This is the last thing I could ever do
01:52:06
for her. >> Although fortified by her friends, nothing could prepare the Harwicks to
01:52:12
hear for the first time ever. Gareth Purse House's explanation about what happened the night Amy died.
01:52:22
Defense attorney Evan Franzel claims that running into Amy in January 2020 at that award show had sent Pur House into
01:52:31
quote a deep debilitating depression unquote. And the only way out of it was to talk to Amy [music]
01:52:39
on Valentine's Day 2020. >> His only intention that night was to speak to her. >> What was your reaction to that? bull.
01:52:49
To put it bluntly, they're making up stories because they have no defense. >> And as for that nicotine filled syringe
01:52:56
found at the crime scene, Pur House's defense attorney says it wasn't for Amy. >> He brought it intending to kill himself.
01:53:05
>> Why didn't he? No, he was on a mission to kill her. >> He was wearing gloves when he [music]
01:53:09
went there. He covered up the cameras. What's the purpose in doing all that if you're going to kill yourself there in
01:53:15
front of her? >> In this trial, >> the defense tells the jurors they will hear from an accident reconstructionist
01:53:22
who will show that Amy fell on her own. Defense attorney Franzel then shows the jury two images. A screenshot of the
01:53:30
reconstruction showing an animated figure hanging from the balcony and an undated photo of Amy posing on top of a
01:53:40
balcony railing. >> You'll see that she had a certain comfort level with the balcony railing.
01:53:46
>> Beautiful young lady, wasn't she? >> She looked glorious. >> What was your reaction?
01:53:52
>> Ridiculous. >> I couldn't take it seriously. It was just so far-fetched to me.
01:53:59
She's been strangled. She's [music] debilitated. So for her to then walk, climb over a three-foot rail, do all
01:54:05
that, it doesn't seem reasonable. It seems actually unreasonable. >> The defense's opening concludes with
01:54:12
this damning admission. >> Yes, Gareth Burst House was waiting in her home. He broke into her home. Had he
01:54:20
not been there, she wouldn't have died that night. That is not in this fear. He set a chain of actions into motion that
01:54:31
led to her death, but the evidence will show that he never intended on killing. >> Over the course of 10 days, the
01:54:42
prosecution presented its evidence to prove that Gareth Pers did intend to kill Amy Harwick. Dozens of witnesses
01:54:51
testified for the state, including Detective Mastersonson. now retired, Robert Koslin.
01:54:59
>> Call Michael Herman to stand. >> And of course, Amy's roommate, Michael Herman, the man who heard it all.
01:55:07
Michael described for the jury how after that incident on the red carpet, Amy had
01:55:13
been concerned about those French doors that Pur House would later use to break into her home.
01:55:20
>> Amy had met with a handyman. I remember uh they were over by the the glass doors
01:55:27
and Amy was pointing it out and telling him we need to secure this. >> Prosecutors also play for the jury this
01:55:34
tape [music] jail conversation between Pur House and his friends after his arrest.
01:55:40
>> I guess I'm officially a bad boy now, right? I've always been kind of >> just a couple [music] of weeks after
01:55:46
he's been arrested for murder. He's laughing with his friends. You never hear any moment of concern [music] for
01:55:52
Amy during that call. >> Yeah. So's not great. I'm not getting out of here. >> Why was that important?
01:56:00
>> I think that's one piece of evidence to show a consciousness of guilt. So he knows what's coming because the evidence
01:56:06
shows what he did. It proves what he did. [music] When it was the defense's turn to present its case and call its
01:56:13
expert witness to show how Amy's fall from the balcony was an accident, the defense suddenly rested without calling
01:56:22
a single witness. >> Didn't that hurt the [music] defense? >> I am sure some jurors were wondering
01:56:28
what happened. So, I don't think that helps. >> During closing arguments, defense
01:56:33
attorney Robin Bernstein Lev presented a new theory of what happened that night.
01:56:38
that Amy may have attacked Pur House. >> We don't know who initiated the physical confrontation.
01:56:49
It is just as likely, if not likelier, she preemptively attacked Gareth Bur House in order to subdue him because she
01:56:59
was afraid of him. >> You see that all the time, don't you? A 115B lady picking a fight with a 230
01:57:06
[music] lb 6'4 man. Just preposterous on its face. >> Did that make you mad? Oh, took all my
01:57:12
willpower to stay in that seat to keep my mouth shut. >> During the state's closing arguments,
01:57:20
it's Amy Harwick who has the last word. with prosecutor Mariano reading from an email Amy wrote to herself hours after
01:57:30
her January 2020 encounter with Pur House. >> Tonight, I felt very scared. Derrick
01:57:36
came up behind me and started screaming. >> I'm pretty nervous that I'm more on his
01:57:40
radar now. It terrifies me that he's obsessed with me for 9 years. Thinks about me every day. He's focused on
01:57:47
harming me. That's the closest we've ever had to to a victim testifying in their murder. I
01:57:54
thought it was extremely devastating. >> Jurors had three choices. Murder in the
01:58:01
first degree, murder in the second, or the lesser charge of voluntary manslaughter.
01:58:07
>> When it came time for deliberation, I think we all thought it would be rather
01:58:11
quick. Day one went by, nothing. I started getting a little worried and thinking what could they be
01:58:18
debating about? >> I felt nervous. >> Yeah, >> cuz you never [music] know. As jurors met for a second day to decide
01:58:43
Gareth Paus's fate, the waiting for a verdict began to weigh heavily on the prosecution.
01:58:50
>> It's incredibly nerve-wracking. The weight is the worst part. >> And on Amy Harwick's friends and family,
01:58:56
>> and all you hear is just like a symphony of of anxious bellies just so everybody's nervous. But as court was
01:59:06
about to adjourn, >> we were walking out of the courthouse and Rudy called down and said,
01:59:11
"Everybody get up here. There's a verdict." >> Is it correct that the jury has a
01:59:15
verdict? You can have the verdict formed over to the bail, please. >> We the jury the above entitled action
01:59:21
finding defendant Gareth Pile guilty of the crime of murder in the first degree.
01:59:25
>> Gareth Pile's guilty of firstdegree murder with a special circumstance of lying in weight. What did you feel at
01:59:35
that moment? >> A huge relief. Huge relief. I I just started crying and I couldn't stop.
01:59:41
[laughter] It was like finally after all this time, he's going to be held accountable for what he did.
01:59:51
>> Two months later, Pers was sentenced to life in prison without parole. >> He didn't say a word. [music]
02:00:05
Amy's friend, Robert Koshlin. >> Justice was rendered and that's good, but we shouldn't be here at all. This
02:00:13
should never have happened to begin with. The hole in our lives remains. >> He's impacted so many people with his
02:00:19
actions. So many people. He devastated our family. >> A family that has grown. After the
02:00:30
verdict, Tom gathered Amy's friends, the ones who have stood by them every step of this journey.
02:00:37
>> I said, "Uh, you are not our friends. You're a family. You You really have become our family.
02:00:46
>> Could you have gotten through this without them?" >> No, >> I don't think so.
02:00:52
>> It's a testament to the amazing life and community Amy Harwick created. She was
02:00:59
really happy. She was really happy that she had really gotten her life together.
02:01:07
Man, we were all happy. >> Michael Herman says he still keeps replaying that night.
02:01:16
>> She's gone and I'm still here. He won a second chance. I'm still trying to save
02:01:21
her. >> Michael Herman has a lot of survivors guilt. Oh my goodness. He did the exact
02:01:27
right thing. >> He made all the right decisions. >> Do you feel your sister got justice?
02:01:34
>> I feel I feel she did. >> Amy's brother, Chris. >> We wish that she still could be here to
02:01:41
to continue to help people cuz that's what she was all about. >> We lost a friend, but so many other
02:01:50
people lost a healer. I think of Amy every day because she she helped me so much.
02:01:58
>> Emily Sears says she's struggling without Amy's guidance. >> It's just so hard to feel safe when this
02:02:04
is the reality of what happened to her and what happens to so many people. >> Amy's loved ones are hoping to change
02:02:12
that reality. After her death, a petition was created to rewrite California domestic violence laws,
02:02:21
including a statute [music] preventing restraining orders from expiring. >> And our biggest disappointment was it
02:02:28
lost all its impact when CO shut everything down. >> Prosecutor Katherine Mariano
02:02:33
acknowledges that there are limits to the legal system. >> By the time it gets to our table, we're
02:02:39
in a position to act reactively rather than proactively. But as a society, I think we can always do better. Right.
02:02:47
>> After the trial, Amy's parents headed home to Pennsylvania, the place where they first became a family with their
02:02:54
little girl, and watched her grow into the woman admired and now missed by so many. What's the hardest part?
02:03:03
Just the the absence, the quiet. >> One huge void. One huge void. And I miss our adventures.
02:03:17
>> Adventures remembered when they visit Amy's grave. >> And I couldn't get a brighter orange.
02:03:25
I know orange was your favorite color, but this is the closest I could get. >> We're not the same people we were
02:03:30
before, but we keep trying to be. >> We miss you, Amy. Every day we think of you.
02:03:39
anything you wish you had been able to say to her? >> Just to tell her one more time that I
02:03:44
love her. I know she knew it, but I wanted to be able to say it. >> [music] >> New CBS next. A young teenager is
02:04:14
strangled and buried alive. [music] Absolutely coldblooded. >> 20 years later, her family battles to
02:04:19
keep her killers behind bars. >> We're [music] fighting for her. That's why we're here. She doesn't have a
02:04:24
voice, so we're her voice. >> 48 hours is all new. CBS Next and streaming on Paramount Plus.