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real people real crimes real life drama in the mid 1980s a young funeral home director named Bernie
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Titi came to the little East Texas town of [Music] Carthage it's beautiful yes I love the
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people here in Carthage Carthage is just a small town of 6,000 people a lot of people got very wealthy on oil fall in
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gas there's a lot of little widows in town who have a lot of money none more so than Mrs margorie
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Nan Bernie Titi was running a con on my grandmother they picked up a gun shot her four times in the back and
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then he buried her in her own deep freeze my name is Bernie TAA you may have heard about me this is my story
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they did a movie about me called Bernie Jack Black who's going to play you yes Richard link later is my favorite
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filmmaker I've ever worked with all right cut I'm Rick linklater and I directed the movie Bernie there was something
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about this story that stayed with me and I think it was that relationship the Miss nent Bernie relationship and the
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Bernie Tito that you know is he a good man he's the sweetest guy you know he's the a great
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man very complex character is that part of what attracted you to this film The thing about playing Bernie is
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that he's lovable and it's really important to Bernie that he be loved perf submiss and I can relate to that visions
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of I have a little bit of that in me too you know this would be funny if it was so damn sad apparently marjerie was
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tough she was vile and hateful and just mean wave hi hello she's very loving I miss her Bernie stole $3.8 million from
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my grandmother and then he put four bullets in her back at close range how did this happen and that was what the
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movie explored she didn't have a lot of friends she didn't have a lot of people around her to take care of her and to
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love her and that's where Bernie came in did she ever look at you Bernie and say
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Bernie I love you well we often told each other that yes she was a wonderful woman and didn't deserve to be executed
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by Bernie Titi I have to live with this every day of my life and I don't like that I think the film is asking the
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question can the nicest person in the world I don't like thinking ill of Mary be capable of the worst act
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[Music] [Applause] [Music] let's go back and start the Bernie story from the beginning where'd you grow up well right
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here in East Texas one way or another Bernie TAA has been dealing with death and darkness
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since he was 3 years old my daddy and my mother they had a car accident and my mother was riding in the passenger side
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of the car and uh um daddy never forgave himself for that his mother dead his father started drinking
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hard and died when Bernie was just 15 so a lot of death had occurred in our in our family things only got worse for
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Bernie he claims he was molested by his own Uncle Elmer ducet 12 when my uncle began molesting me ducet has always
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denied Bernie's allegations did it darken your world in some way yes it did Bernie learned firsthand that the
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wounded lonely and those the dead leave behind need comforting this was Bernie Tito's world I guess you could say
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that's true yeah Carlton shamburger is the owner of Hawthorne Funeral Home where Bernie worked for 9 years he was
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very successful here at Hawthorns and as a funeral director overall he could do everything he could he was talented
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could do everything from makeup hair he could he could preach even out coloration then apply highlights it
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would just be part of what inspired director Richard linklater and actor Jack Black to collaborate on the Darkly
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comic movie Bernie too much color does not make one look more alive he was on a lot of people's list to literally sing
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them to Heaven he knew how to take care of families he could connect that quick [Music]
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exactly so it was wasn't long after 27-year-old Bernie arrived in Carthage back in
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1985 that everyone seemed to know him from the dusty dirt roads one of his excellent qualities was he was a gourmet
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cook where Jack Payne and Ira bounds live I think that he was well thought of amongst the little old ladies in
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town and at Comer's famous barbecue he taught our Sunday school he preached a funeral for us even down at the
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courthouse did you know know Bernie TAA yes where local Legend district attorney
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Danny Buck Davidson ruled back then and still rules today everyone sense something good had come to town you
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think Jay I'm glad this guy came here he's an asset to the community everybody love
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Barney well I enjoyed singing in the choir and then I got active also in the school here in the drama Department I
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was acting and and and doing in plays and you were often times the star often times often times yes did you feel loved
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in this community very much so I felt very much loved local ladies Lisa and Susie cochrell sum it up simply he was a
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God he God I mean almost people really s him like that yeah he's got a warmth got a magnetism
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just a super generous sensitive guy and is is everybody's best friend Bernie TAA
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always had had that human touch he knew just what to say to bring a smile to anyone who needed it so in a grieving
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vulnerable Widow came here to the Hawthorne Funeral Home Bernie saw an opportunity to do what he did
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best in 1990 the town's leading banker and oilman Rod Nan hard-nosed tough but fair
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businessman dies skip Collingsworth covered the case Fort Texas monthly magazine and Bernie is in charge of his
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funeral I am bombed his body and got him ready for the funeral and Mrs Nan arrives and I'd met with her about the
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arrangements Margery nent would one day be portrayed by Oscar winning actress Shirley mlan I saw her to the grave site
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we had the funeral service there and then I took her back to the car are you thinking to yourself well we parted ways
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we did some business and never shall meet again well no cuz that's not how I I conduct funerals as I often do with
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the widows widowers check on them uh go by the house make sure they're all right
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did they appreciate your your dropping by oh very much so why don't you know that I was thinking about you you know
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these times can be hard well Margie wasn't a Huggy typ person Ruth cochrell would come to know as much as anyone in
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Carthage about the Friendship of Bernie and margorie well we are first cousins were you guys close we got pretty close
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could margerie be difficult I think any of us can be difficult I mean as an old setting
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handsom [Music] sometimes in small towns anywhere your reputation is not often defined by who
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you are it's by what people think of you and so the reputation did get around that Mrs Nan could be C tankis could
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Marjorie be mean yes sir she could and another thing newly widowed 74-year-old margerie nent was loaded
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with cash she would kind of be a call of blue blood as much as $6 million some soaps and a little bubble bath to soo
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the in the tub Bernie T wasn't about to be turned away come in oh that it would be my sure I felt sorry for margorie I
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really [Music] did and soon Marjorie and Bernie were seen on the scene The Odd Couple of
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Carthage we'd go to the Cherokee club we would go to the Jalapeno Tree here in Carthage yeah they were uh they were a
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pair and it wasn't long before marjerie wanted more than a part-time dinner date
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and Bernie complied she asked me to leave the funeral home she just wanted more and more and more of me around she
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actually hired Bernie and paid him a salary there's this notion out there that you were attracted to margery's
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money yes um I'm aware of that uh I that was not part of the deal that was not part of my wanting to be around
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margorie there's members of margery's family that tell a different story Bernie TAA is what a thief
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just 2 hours up the road in Dallas these are some of our old family photos of my
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grandmother three proud granddaughters everything that has been said about her is not her have a very different take on
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just why Bernie was befriending Margery he saw her as a mark he stole her money when he was about to be found
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out he shot her and killed her that's the real story that is the real story [Music]
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is this case about money yes it is how so I think that defends everything The Majestic Gates swung open
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to a kingdom of riches and Bernie TAA rolled right in I think the Fatal mistake my grandmother made is she ended
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up buying a $30,000 headstone from Bernie TTI from that moment he marked her within months of meeting at her
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husband's funeral Bernie was full-time at marjerie n jent's i popping home helping her with anything that she
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needed help with make her coffee make sure she was was up she was all right he was there he was there for her
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they loved each other yeah Bernie loves everybody and I think he's the one person in the world in that era who
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could feel that from Marge when no one else could I never thought of him as being lovey Dobies never just just just
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together just friends I never saw him kiss you never did nope and da Danny Buck probably
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never would because there was something about Bernie that made folks Wonder back
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then I'm a gay man and it's hard to be a a gay man and being out in a small town
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did margerie know you were gay we never discussed it never discussed no so what was the attraction she's 42 years older
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than you right he was targeting wealthy women well I think the attraction for margerie was uh the same as it was for
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everybody else in town he was just a a lovable guy when you spend time with them you want
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to hang out with them less than a year after her husband's death Bernie and Margery
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started hanging out big time trading in the back roads for Broadway we'd go up on Friday
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morning and then come back on Sunday saw Broadway shows we had a lot of fun together Bernie TAA the mortician who
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made about $24,000 a year now had access to Marjorie Nan's 10,000 square foot mansion in Carthage her checkbook and a
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world of opportunity they went on great adventures together wave hi hello they had a ball together they traveled the
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world we went to Washington Baltimore and then took a a cruise down the East Coast we went to uh Germany
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England Scotland and Wales Egypt went to the pyramids we just went everywhere was
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she having a good time she was having a great time he was her manservant is it too busy the guy hired
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to take care of her every need clipped her toenails all the uh nitty-gritty and for Bernie the perks kept piling up
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marjerie showered him with cash clothing cars even flying lessons and planes to go
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with it and in turn Bernie gave gifts to the good people of Carthage he provided
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money he provided scholarships doing good doing a lot of good in Carthage turns out he was generous with Miss
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Nan's money he was kind of the conduit to her generosity to her better Angel she spoiled me rotten but the new jents
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say their grandma never needed Bernie or anyone to teach her kindness my grandmother was a loving sweet woman and
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she was kind she was she was kind and she loved telling stories this is really eye
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opening guys to talk to you this is really eye opening in '93 like we went there and she opened
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the door and she hugged me and she kissed me like eight times but whatever margery's affection for her
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granddaughters the stakes were about to change marjerie nent filed a new will leaving everything to Bernie and nothing
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to her family did you encourage her to do that no she brought that to me uh one day and it was in
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1991 why would she do that well I felt like she could felt like she could trust me I guess it was on one of the next
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family visits to Carthage that the nent women got a hint of How Deeply Bernie had moved into their grandmother's life
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flash forward to 1994 we go to see her and she opens the door and she goes I don't know who you
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are and I go what do you mean you don't know who we are and she goes I don't know who you are she's like you need to
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leave and we went in and there were pictures of Bernie everywhere and we said who is this you know nanny who is
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this this and she said well he's my friend and the thing that Disturbed me was that all of the pictures of my
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grandfather were gone for shanana Alexandria and Susan Grandma margery's new Behavior was disturbing she was like
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a school girl in love and the motives of her new companion deeply suspect we believe that my grandmother was in love
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with Bernie and believed that he was in love with her when was the last time you
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guys saw your grandmother alive that visit in 1994 and now they worried that Bernie
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was well on the way to tricking Marjorie out of millions I think it's the perfect
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example of a sweetheart scam um that I have ever seen my grandmother believed he loved her how do you know that cuz I
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saw her but Bernie tells a different story claiming that after 5 years attending to Marjorie the relationship
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had soured and that even though he had his own modest home he felt trapped by marjerie and wanted out Bernie claims
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margery's 247 demands had turned into an abusive relationship she was very uh mean-spirited very um uh abrupt with me
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very um could she be abusive yes very much so in some ways would was her place his gilded cage and she closed the door
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on that cage yeah we were uh in a heated discussion about um I I I told her I said I just I've got
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to I can't do this anymore and I said I I I can't be your friend anymore I just can't do this go ahead you H me she was
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very distraught uh you can't leave me you're not going to leave me no one has ever left me I know you're a so I backed
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my car out of the garage and other time I got out there she had locked the gate on me until I finally just I said okay I
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won't leave you I won't leave well just park your car jump over the gate run you know whatever but Bernie is
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not one built for conflict I think he takes it as his fate I can't get away from this woman the door's right there
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Bernie but it's not as simple as that uh people get trapped people get trapped no exit no way out and at least
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according to Bernie feeling like margorie Nan's prisoner reminded him of the abuse he says he suffered as a boy
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and in some ways did you feel trapped in this relationship just as you had been trapped with your uncle
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yes yes I did I think he is a killer I think he has no remorse I don't believe a word
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that comes out of the man's mouth [Music] [Applause] you Bernie TAA claims it pains him to recall how
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controlling and contener margorie nent could be I don't like the things that she did
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but I don't like talking about him either personally and I think he's pure evil let's moved now to November 19th
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1996 tell me about that day and what from your perspective led to the tragedy I had gone out to the house to
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make coffee early 7:30 got her up that's enough of that ex I don't want you to talk about the
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shooting this is attorney jod Cole she would eventually become a big part of Bernie tita's life this is all public
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records I do not want him to talk about the shooting and how his story would be told that's enough yet when we spoke
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with Bernie jod Cole stopped him from telling those Grizzly details hard facts everyone from Carthage to
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Hollywood now knows shot her in the back four times shot her dead with this 22 caliber
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rifle the first bullet in her back makes her paralyzed so she falls straight down
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onto the concrete he shoots her again he then walks straight up to her body puts
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the nuzzle to the gun to the back of her and shoots it two more times those graphic details would be missing
00:21:02
from the movie I remember right before we shot that scene I went up to Jack Black and I said have you ever killed
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anyone in a movie like this yeah that was one of the hardest scenes in the movie Mary you see a scene like that in
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a script and you Circle it in the calendar when you're going to shoot that and you think about it a lot marrey can
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you say something oh no no no no Jesus no no no what have I done I'm sorry that that happened my
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life I caused the death of somebody that I loved days turned into months as Bernie
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kept his awful secret and marjorie's family they began to wonder what had become of Grandma I started asking my
00:21:47
dad have you heard from Nanny I can't get her and you know maybe she's on another trip she'll call you when she
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gets back and the nent women all busy college students at the time this was Christmas my grandparents admit there
00:22:01
was a reluctance to reach out to Grandma Marjorie we had the strange encounter in
00:22:08
1994 where we didn't feel welcome and every Sunday he'd come sit right beside me and give me a full report on Margie
00:22:15
and what were you thinking to yourself I'm thinking you're lying that's what I'm thinking and I just made up one
00:22:21
thing or another you told one she had Alzheimer's another she was in the hospital such a a difficult ult time and
00:22:29
Mama would tell us what he had been saying and and it's like Mama are you crazy he's either got her locked up in
00:22:37
the house poisoning her or he's already killed her if I had gone to the police and then been proven
00:22:45
wrong I would have been left out of Carthage because people thought so much of Bernie so week after week month after
00:22:59
month passes marjor is nowhere to be seen nine months nine months it was August 18th
00:23:08
1997 the nents had finally shared their concerns with the local sheriff I get a call from my dad he and
00:23:20
I drive [Music] down and it's clear that no one's been there for a very long time
00:23:28
so where was marjerie nent I wanted to check the freezer my grandmother was a child of the depression so you didn't
00:23:37
waste food turning back up the hallway so when Alexandria and the sheriff's deputies got to the house she knew
00:23:44
exactly where she wanted to go she walked down this hallway Alexandria knew that if her grandmother had left the
00:23:51
house she would have put everything she kept in the refrigerator in a freezer located inside this Pantry she opened
00:24:00
the door and there it was it was so quick it was like I walked in and I said there's tape on the freezer and this is
00:24:08
freezer she untaped it and raised it up and threw the lid open and there was the top of Miss n's
00:24:18
head and I looked at my dad and I said they found her and he just kind of did this and all I wanted at that moment
00:24:28
was my mom do I regret the fact that I didn't rush down there to stop him from doing
00:24:35
this yes because that's what you do when you love someone and you find out that the person that they were in love with
00:24:44
shot them four times in the back as you think how could I have saved them while a motive remained unclear there was Zero
00:24:53
mystery about the prime suspect Barney's name was top of Bernie was easy to find he was right in
00:25:02
Carthage at home when the sheriff's depuy showed up and brought him in for questioning I was so relieved when they
00:25:10
came for me and arrested me it felt like this big weight had been lifted off my shoulder how could you
00:25:19
come to my house eat my food and sing hymns and my cousin over there in the Deep Freeze
00:25:33
it's Grim when you know you see an old lady on video being pulled out of a freezer those are images that stay with
00:25:41
you and I think it took two days to th out and for them to do an autopsy strange yes that same day Bernie TAA
00:25:50
confessed to Penola County sheriff's deputies that he murdered marjerie nent there wasn't a question in anybody's
00:25:58
mind everybody knew I think you're right Danny Buck Davidson would charge Bernie
00:26:02
with first-degree premeditated murder and seek the ultimate penalty laugh life in prison maximum sentence and that's
00:26:11
when this Twisted Texas tail really got strange people in the community were coming in saying Berney was a real good
00:26:19
guy if he killed her he had a reason for doing poor Bernie he had his groupies Bernie had his groupies yep some people
00:26:28
are saying hey let him go some people are saying no put them away for life you just have never seen a story
00:26:35
like this come across your desk ever and people still want to talk about it they're still mystified about what
00:26:43
really happened on that November afternoon that led Bernie to shoot her four [Applause]
00:26:56
times I'd stay in in the garden with Bernie TAA had preached and comforted and sang his way into this
00:27:10
proud small Town's everyday life he held a special place in the hearts of many people in Carthage Texas
00:27:18
some folks even suggested Bernie was next door to the angels and I said he's an angel all right he's an angel of
00:27:27
death your job as a prosecutor you got a man who's admitted he put four bullets in
00:27:32
the back of a little old lady put her in a preure and kept spending her money while he was dead and you have a
00:27:38
community saying leave him alone that's what would they say go easy on Barney it happened so often he asked
00:27:47
for a change of venue and he got one the trial of Bernie TAA for murdering margerie nent was moved 50 Mi away and
00:27:57
in February of 1999 Danny Buck told his tale to a jury who had never heard about
00:28:04
Bernie I thought it was greed and betrayal that's what I sold to the jury Bernie's defense was that he killed
00:28:13
marjerie in an act of passion that her murder was not premeditated I don't know what happened that morning
00:28:23
the jury did not relate to him the they related to me the trial lasted less than a week how
00:28:34
long did it take this jury to make its decision I think it took them maybe 20 minutes to find him
00:28:42
guilty 9 years after he met Marjorie newon at her husband's funeral Bernie was sentenced to life in prison which is
00:28:51
the top Max sentence and I felt pretty good about it I deserve time I've done a particularly horrible thing the
00:29:01
worst thing in my life Case Closed except for this Richard linklater couldn't get the tale of
00:29:11
Bernie TAA out of his head I ended up attending the trial and started thinking of this maybe there's a movie here Rick
00:29:19
and Skip Hollingsworth wrote The Bernie screenplay and brought it to Jack Black and he said hey I never told you about
00:29:27
this thing that I've been obsessed with this story about this fellow Bernie TAA and so I said let me read this
00:29:35
thing Jack Black became so intrigued he agreed to play the lead role but not before he and Link later
00:29:45
paid a visit to a Texas Maximum Security Prison to try and understand just who Bernie TAA really was I wanted to come
00:29:55
and uh meet you as still think it's important if uh if I want to play a real person that I that I should meet you
00:30:04
love be around people I'm just a person black wanted to know what made Bernie tick right down to what he felt in the
00:30:13
days after he murdered marjerie that must have been incredibly stressful that period with the walls closing in have no
00:30:22
Earth idea it was absolutely horrendous if you're playing a person and you have access to them you got to go see them
00:30:28
it's just one of the rules of the game I'm very appreciative of of them coming to meet me and I have to stay here
00:30:35
unless something changes oh there's one man in particular I can think of I you like to talk to the movie Bernie also
00:30:41
featured Matthew mccon as Danny Buck Danny Buck's coming to get you first here please in April 2012 it
00:30:51
premiered in Rick's hometown of Austin critics loved it I know you at this idea that my grandmother was a monster is
00:31:01
ludicrous the nen family thought it was beyond offensive it was a complete lie it was devastating to us I mean they
00:31:10
took the most awful part of our lives and just laughed about it and joked about it it's like he' cast a spell over
00:31:19
the entire area and now the Bernie TAA story was about to take yet another bizarre twist that began right at the
00:31:28
movie premiere a little feisty lady comes up to me and says I bet there was some you know crazy stuff going on at
00:31:35
the trial she's appeals lawyer jod Cole and after watching the movie she got a hunch that the trial of Bernie TAA had
00:31:45
been a miscarriage of Justice I want the world to know that Bernie TAA is a good
00:31:51
person and that this outcome is unacceptable I said look at that he snaps and so I thought why did he get a
00:32:01
life sentence she asked link later if he had the transcripts from Tia's 1999 murder trial he came with his boxes of
00:32:11
transcripts put it on her desk and like I don't know have at it jod poured over the files knowing that Bernie's life
00:32:19
sentence hinged on Danny Buck's argument that the murder was premeditated and within a couple of
00:32:27
weeks she had come to see me is there a miracle that's about to occur yes and jod Cole did a lot of work toward that
00:32:34
Miracle happening all right Mar Mary are you okay that morning I felt like I wasn't a
00:32:50
part of the shooting 16 years after he shot margerie nent dead Bernie painted a picture for defense attorney Jody Cole
00:33:00
about how he felt that awful morning I felt like I wasn't even there and I have learned that that is called a
00:33:07
dissociative episode I think it's a classic case of a kind of disassociated moment that's what this whole case
00:33:14
hinges on a dissociative episode The New Age psychological term would break the case against Bernie TAA wide open when
00:33:24
they are overwhelmed with stress and emotion they actually disassociate which is leave their
00:33:34
body and Bernie's body the theory goes killed marjerie without his mind taking part and he shot her yes involuntarily
00:33:44
the nen family would have their own take on Jody's ideas not connected with reality thoroughly confused this woman
00:33:53
had been abusing him for a very long time and his body acted in a way to end that abuse Bernie also confided in Jody
00:34:02
what he says is his darkest secret about that childhood sexual abuse he claims he
00:34:08
suffered at the hands of that Uncle jod brought the findings to the DA and he was sold what do you conclude in
00:34:18
terms of why this murder occurred the child abuse and the beauty relationship I think that he did not plan on killing
00:34:29
her Denny Buck says if he had to do it all over again he would have sought a much lighter sentence 20 years would
00:34:37
have been the maximum sentence not because Danny Buck wants 20 it's what the law is Danny Buck then
00:34:46
went to bat for the killer he had once helped convict and on May 6th 2014 Bernie titi's life sentence thrown out a
00:34:56
new sentencing trial is ordered and Bernie is released from prison for the time being lots of Miracles have
00:35:03
happened in my life the next miracle was in the parking lot Mr linklater picked me up and we drove to Austin the real
00:35:11
life Bernie Titi just got out of an East Texas present uh this is Bernie's little
00:35:16
apartment he lived down here he put me up in his apartment at his home in some ways did Bernie become part of the
00:35:24
family yeah very much I mean did you ever babysit your kids yeah in Austin Bernie went about creating a new life
00:35:32
all on borrowed time he joined the Gay Men's Choir in the time of King Herod he became a regular at Pastor Sid Hall's
00:35:41
Church our folks surrounded him like mother hens just loving him he was definitely feeling the uh Ecstasy of
00:35:51
[Applause] Freedom well my first thought is how is this happening the nent granddaughters
00:35:59
found it all beyond belief Richard linklater con Richard Linker is just as con as my grandmother
00:36:08
was I think I'm pretty uncontable I think Danny bet got enthralled with Hollywood i' say that's
00:36:16
BS before the sentencing trial Danny Buck recused himself he was replaced by two prosecutors determined to put Bernie
00:36:26
TAA back Behind Bars this was just a straightup execution I think he's conned Hollywood and he's conned the whole
00:36:34
Judicial System Jane stars and Assistant Attorney General Lisa Tanner weren't buying it Bernie didn't have a
00:36:43
dissociative episode this case is about abusing elderly vulnerable people it's about abusing margorie nent financially
00:36:53
and it's about just coldblooded murder what do we have in front of us here we have just small portions of the paper
00:37:00
trail Lisa Tanner would allege Bernie regularly forged margerie Nan's signature he was very good at signing
00:37:07
her signature manually manipulated her bank accounts this is what he showed Marjorie but this is what he really
00:37:14
deposited we had 14 of these altered her brokerage statements the original of this document is literally a cut and
00:37:22
pasted dummied up statement all of this he's pocketing her money both while marjerie was alive and after Bernie had
00:37:31
killed her and stuffed her in her freezer the numbers ended up being approximately $3.8 million total
00:37:39
Bernie's motive for murder came into Focus he was about to be found out [Music] about in April
00:37:50
2016 after 2 years of Freedom Bernie Tia's new sentencing trial began as the jury here and ready to go it was moved
00:37:59
to Henderson Texas because Bernie still had so many friends and fans in Carthage
00:38:05
what began with State Miss Tanner Lisa Tanner put Bernie in her sights this is a real case with a real murderer he did
00:38:15
that and Hollywood so we're going to talk about that in a non- fictionalized non hollywoodized kind of way Hollywood
00:38:24
means you know lack of morality thank you guys but I took that really personal cuz I
00:38:30
don't live in Hollywood I'm an indie Texas director Rick link later was called to the stand to defend his friend
00:38:38
I think he's a incredibly nice generous man who you know did a horrible thing the
00:38:47
director and those who love Bernie argued he had paid his dues with time already served 16
00:38:55
years yeah I'd say he served enough time and Bernie's Uncle under oath denied ever having molested Bernie you say
00:39:05
never but did admit writing him a letter sexual in nature Bernie did not testify
00:39:12
at the trial I mean I just there they're just some questions that don't have any
00:39:21
answers two dramatic versions of margerie Nan's murder have now been told one on the big screen the other in a
00:39:29
courtroom in Henderson Texas the question now is who will the jurors believe sudden
00:39:38
passion dissociative episode snapping when he took that gun and pointed it down straight to the ground and put it
00:39:46
in her back that justified a life sentence then Bernie are you a danger to society no sir not at
00:39:55
all the jury goes out to deliberate Alexandria what's going through your mind you know at that moment all you can
00:40:04
do is pray on April 2nd 2016 some 26 years after he met marjerie nent the jury once again sentenced
00:40:21
Bernie TAA to 99 years in prison for 99 years alive everyone in that courtroom knew that my
00:40:32
grandmother was not mean she did not deserve to die and that this man deserved to go away for the rest of his
00:40:42
life when I heard 99 years I mean it was just it was devastating he back in prison for life
00:40:51
it's very discouraging now what's as certain as his life sentence is this deep in the Heart of Texas Bernie
00:41:03
TAA is [Music] loved even today is there a Bernie TAA fan club in Carthage yes not as big as it once was
00:41:14
but it's here [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] I was out doing my patrol we just
00:42:27
started our shift that day and I was driving down Sunset Boulevard and I had received a call uh beige color car with
00:42:36
no license plates following this uh little girl in Los Angeles in 1968 8-year-old tally Shapiro was walking to
00:42:46
school when a car pulled up alongside her a good samarit and a witness sees a little girl the little 8-year-old T get
00:42:54
in the car thinks it's suspicious follows him and puts a call into LAPD former Los Angeles police officer
00:43:03
Chris kamacho reached the location and knocked on the door and I said police officer open the door I need to talk to
00:43:10
you this male appeared at the door I will always remember that face at that door very evil
00:43:19
face and he says I I'm in the shower I got to get dressed and I told him okay you got 10 seconds finally I kicked the
00:43:26
door in [Music] the image will be with me forever we could see in the kitchen that
00:43:36
there was a body on the floor a lot of blood they say A picture says a thousand words in that image of those little
00:43:45
white Mary Janes on that floor with that metal bar that he used to strangle her with and that puddle of blood it just
00:43:52
looks like too much blood to come out of a tiny little 8-year-old like that there was no breathing we all thought
00:44:01
she was dead kamacho began frantically searching the house for her attacker moments later he walked back
00:44:11
into the kitchen and witnessed a miracle she was gagging and trying to breathe and I thought one for the good
00:44:20
guys she's going to make it clinging to life tally was rushed to the hospital he
00:44:26
it hadn't not been for that police officer tly Shapiro would have died on rot alcohol's kitchen
00:44:32
floor we started searching the residence there was a lot of photograph equipment
00:44:37
and all of us were amazed at the amount of photographs that he had there of young girls very young
00:44:42
girls we found lot of ID picture ID of AR Rodney aala he was a student at UCLA the
00:44:52
suspect 25-year-old Rodney aala had slipped through the officer's fingers when I kicked in the front door the
00:45:00
suspect went out the back door with alala in the wind former detective Steve hodell was grasping at thin air but we
00:45:09
kept coming up empty back then you know we didn't have a lot of the forensics you have today he was a snake charmer I
00:45:16
went and talked to his professor at UCLA he says Rod Alcala wouldn't hurt anybody
00:45:21
he's a great guy he truly believed that you know and and a lot of people did [Music]
00:45:59
[Music] Rodney alala was born in San Antonio Texas in 1943 his father abandoned the
00:46:17
family when he was young at 17 aala enlisted in the Army but there were problems allegations of sexual
00:46:25
misconduct nervous breakdown the Army discharged him the military realized in 1963 that they had him that he was a
00:46:34
sexual deviant in 1969 the FBI put Rodney alala on its most wanted list but finding alala was going to be
00:46:46
no simple matter R alala after raping and and almost killing T Shapiro he fled to New
00:46:55
York he made friends he he Charmed people he got into NYU Film School none of his fellow students suspected that
00:47:03
their popular classmate had a double life which had the makings of a film itself a horror
00:47:12
film 3 years after his attack on T Shapiro aa's Dark Side once again emerged a beautiful face she carried
00:47:29
herself extremely sophisticatedly his next victim Cornelia Michael krly a 23-year-old flight attendant for tww I
00:47:39
was living with her temporarily while she was getting her own apartment uh ready around the corner uh to share with
00:47:47
another stewardess krly had spent the day moving in when Borstein came home from work he
00:47:54
was surprised to find her door locked and no one answered the phone when her boyfriend was trying to reach her and
00:48:01
was unable the police came in a horrible scene prosecutor Melissa morus was struck by the Ferocious nature of the
00:48:10
killing she had been stripped naked she was uh strangled with a uh nylon stocking and there was a bite mark on
00:48:19
her breast well obviously the cause of death is strangulation she's bound she's held there something stuffed in her
00:48:27
mouth obviously to keep her from screaming the police focused in on cornelia's murder but with almost 2,000
00:48:34
killings in New York in 1971 investigators could not close the case they had no real leads we didn't have
00:48:42
the forensic uh tools that we have uh today so they did what they could but it never went any place and the case just
00:48:48
went cold and it stayed cold for 40 years Rodney alala wasn't even a suspect after after the murder he changed his
00:48:58
name to John Berger and moved to New Hampshire he landed a job as a counselor at an arts and drama camp for girls
00:49:07
there he made a lasting impression on the campers two girls went to their local post office and they looked and
00:49:13
there was Rodney alcala's photo on the FBI 10 most wanted list and they looked up and said oh my
00:49:19
gosh that's Mr Burger they report it to the dean he calls the authorities they arrest him
00:49:31
take him into custody I get a phone call from the FBI saying we've got your man in custody he's ready to be picked up
00:49:38
police in California were eager to charge him for tally Shapiro's brutal assault but her family had left the
00:49:45
country with no main witness prosecutors had no choice but to offer Alcala a deal
00:49:53
plead guilty to a lesser charge of child molestation and register as a sex offender he took
00:50:00
the deal but the judge's sentence stunned those working the case he received one year to life and the Pearl
00:50:08
board let him go after 34 months after what he did to tell Shapiro so less than three years later Rodney alala was a
00:50:16
free man again I I I was flabbergasted to say the least it just amazed me and alala had no trouble Charming his way
00:50:27
back into the swing of things he was hired by the Los Angeles Times to work as a as a typ Setter he took photos at
00:50:33
weddings and uh he was a registered sex offender during all of that and nobody ever checked even worse he was chosen to
00:50:41
be a contestant on The Dating Game it's the dating game The Bachelor of its day what no one knew was that Rodney Alcala
00:50:51
was already a serial killer please welcome Rodney alkala from all outward appearances R Al Cola
00:51:00
was a handsome I'm called the banana and I look really good charming smart young
00:51:07
man well I like bananas so I'll take one number one number one all right that wouldn't hurt a fly the woman who won a
00:51:16
date with him ended up backing out saying she found him creepy come on over here
00:51:24
[Applause] her intuition probably saved her life others would not be so fortunate we'll
00:51:33
never know how many women are lucky cuz every woman that crossed that guy's path
00:51:38
was a potential victim [Music] it was 1977 Rodney alala was out of prison and living in New York bad news for the New
00:52:05
York cops who already had their hands full a homegrown serial killer known as Son of Sam was terrorizing the city he
00:52:14
struck again over the weekend the Killer's sixth victim police say they are nowhere near solving the case by
00:52:20
this time the Cornelia Krill case had been called for 6 years with no suspect Rodney alala was only in the city a week
00:52:30
before adding to the New York crime wave his next victim a 23-year-old musician and artist
00:52:39
named Ellen hover Ellen was a sweet gentle soul Anita Feinberg and Ellen hover met as teenagers Ellen was a very
00:52:52
dear college friend we roomed together for some time she never confused what she had with who
00:53:01
she was Ellen hover came from a prominent Show Business family her father owned the famed Hollywood
00:53:07
nightclub cose her Godfathers were Sammy Davis Jr and Dean Martin her mom called
00:53:15
me and said Anita have you heard from Ellen and I said no she said think hard nobody can find Ellen and I didn't think
00:53:27
anything of it until it hit the newspapers her family's high-profile made the story front page
00:53:36
news as the NYPD kept up the hunt for her that detective did a great job for a missing person's case it was a lot of
00:53:44
calls he did a lot of work a lot of leg work detectives thought they were on to something when they found an important
00:53:51
clue in her apartment Ellen hover had marked on her calendar that she was going to see someone named John Burger
00:54:00
on the date that um she disappeared remember alala had been using the name John Berger but at the time the
00:54:08
connection was never made her body wasn't found until um a year later buried on the grounds of the
00:54:17
philps Memorial Hospital in Westchester um near the Rockefeller [Music] estate until they actually found her
00:54:28
there was always a glimmer of hope once they found her body that was it Ellen's body was so decomposed police
00:54:40
had to use dental records to identify her based on the autopsy they declared it a homicide there was a suspect in the
00:54:50
murder fellow that they believe was the last person that she was seen with could
00:54:54
that fellow have been alala Ellen had written his Alias John berer in her calendar Alcala meanwhile had left New
00:55:03
York and was on his Meandering road trip back to California he was constantly in
00:55:10
predatory mode that is behavior that involves hunting human beings and that's part of a serial sexual
00:55:19
killer that is often as exciting as the actual homicide and sexual sexual assault at the same time Rodney Alcala
00:55:33
was on the road a 29-year-old woman from Texas Christine Ruth Thorton was traveling through the West with her
00:55:41
boyfriend her sister Kathy was 11 years younger Chris was a free spirit kind of gal so she always was up for
00:55:52
anything in the spring of 1977 Christine was heading to Montana with her boyfriend to pan for gold and
00:56:01
she had big news she let my mom know that she was going to be having a baby and then nothing more Was Heard Kathy
00:56:13
immediately feared the worst Christine and her boyfriend had a stormy relationship she had been abused by him
00:56:22
we knew that I always thought that he had done something to her soon after Christine disappeared Kathy began
00:56:28
searching for answers she undertook a systematic effort to track Christine and her boyfriend's whereabouts that would
00:56:36
last almost 40 years through marriage motherhood divorce and a career Kathy contacted police
00:56:46
departments federal agencies hospitals and kept copies of every phone call and letter this was a letter I sent to the
00:56:54
FBI I contacted the Department of Health and Human Services they say a check at this
00:57:02
address failed to reveal any contact with Christine Ruth Thorton the Social Security Administration I contacted them
00:57:10
asking if there was any employment record and there has never been any employment
00:57:18
history you know I think the message was kind of clear everything was no we don't know we
00:57:24
have nothing looking back through this it's like yeah it was staring me in the face she was
00:57:30
not alive Kathy didn't know the name Rodney alala but one day she would hear more about the psychology of
00:57:41
a sexual serial killer now on Facebook at 48 hours [Music] it was the spring of 1979 Rodney alala had been back in
00:58:01
California for almost 2 years and a 12-year-old Robin samso was enjoying the Southern California beach life we just
00:58:11
liveed to to have fun Bridget wilvert was Robin's best friend everybody could be complaining about being bored and me
00:58:22
and Robin would find ourselves doing cartwheels and back walkovers the other love of Robin's life was her
00:58:30
mom Maryanne she was probably the most loving child a mother could have everything she did she did to
00:58:39
please me on June 20th 1979 Robin was going to start her first day of work answering
00:58:48
phones at the ballet studio in exchange for lessons but first she planned to play on the beach for a few hours
00:58:56
with Bridget I could definitely see a gentleman with dark hair I mean he he honed in on us like
00:59:07
really like a like a shark in the water honing in on a seal and he goes can I take your girl's pictures and Robin goes
00:59:17
sure and all of a sudden out of nowhere pops up Jackie young my neighbor you know know she goes Bridget
00:59:27
is everything okay are you girls all right and man he he took that camera turned his head
00:59:35
down and you could almost see like smoke coming off his dress shoes he just he was
00:59:44
gone Robin and Bridget turned to go back home and Robin had thrown her Beach toing everything into her bag and she's
00:59:53
like well I'm going to um get going [Music] and I go well take my bike and don't
01:00:01
stop that was the last time anyone saw Robin alive Robin's ballet teacher called when
01:00:10
she did not arrive for her lesson later that day her family immediately called 911 it was um probably the most
01:00:21
horrifying time of all you know not knowing police Contin question the one person they thought might know where
01:00:29
Robin could have gone her best friend Bridget and I I said I go it was the man that man that took our
01:00:39
picture on July 2nd 12 Days After Robin last said goodbye to her friend and rode
01:00:45
off on her bike detectives found the body of a child I said let's go see her he said we
01:00:53
can't do that I said that's my baby of course I here why not he said because it took us 3 days to identify
01:01:01
her said what's wrong with you people how many little girls with long blonde hair disappeared that it took her 3 days
01:01:08
he shook my shoulders and the tears were coming down his face to he says there was no
01:01:19
hair a fire crew conducting routine fire prevention maintenance found Robin's remains in a remote location more than
01:01:27
40 m from where she was last seen there were 12 days for the animals to scavenge
01:01:32
Robin's Remains by the time uh the fire crew actually found her body she was just
01:01:39
Bones the pressure was on to find the killer Bridget's description resulted in this composite sketch which was released
01:01:48
to the media all over Southern California his parole officer saw that and uh and called the detectives and
01:01:56
said look there's a guy that used to be on my case load uh you really need to take a look at him his name is Rodney
01:02:02
alala it had been nearly 11 years since Alcala had left 8-year-old Tali Shapiro for dead but alala was easy to find this
01:02:12
time he lived with his mother in Monterey Park a Stones Throw from the mountains where Robin's remains were
01:02:19
located they learned that he had no alibi that he nobody could account for his wor at the time he was the perfect
01:02:28
suspect Rodney alala was arrested on July 24th and charged with the kidnap and murder of Robin
01:02:38
samso Detective Pat Ellis said Huntington Beach Police got an unexpected tip when alcala's sister came
01:02:46
to visit her brother in jail the conversation was being recorded one point he mentions him having a storage
01:02:54
locker in Seattle Washington the cops don't know about say do me a favor get the stuff out of there get it get it
01:03:00
cleared out but what alala didn't know was that police had found a receipt for the locker during a search of his home
01:03:08
at the time of his arrest they beat her there okay and they get inside there's the mother
01:03:17
load hundreds if not thousands of the of these different images and there are dozens upon dozens of these young women
01:03:23
that in the in the pictures clearly are in position of supreme vulnerability with with Rodney alala police learned
01:03:30
alala had rented the storage facility and moved his belongings there 9 days after Robin Sam's remains were
01:03:39
discovered buried under all this stuff was this tiny little silk bag filled with earrings alala claimed those were
01:03:47
his earrings but when police showed the jewelry to Robin's mother she recognized
01:03:52
a pair of gold ball studs that she said often borrowed so at that point um those
01:03:59
are all the nuts and bullets that you need for a successful prosecution nearly one year after Robin Sam so's murder
01:04:05
prosecutors were ready it was February 1980 Rodney alala went on trial over the course of 2 and a half months there were
01:04:14
almost 50 witnesses that testified it was a very long very difficult case the jury convicted alala and sentenced him
01:04:22
to death it's a poor exchange for my daughter's life but maybe it'll save someone else is by him being gone but
01:04:29
the relief would be shortlived today in a 5 to1 decision the California state Supreme Court ruled that Rodney Alcala
01:04:36
did not receive a fair trial the jury had been improperly told about alcala's prior sex crimes
01:04:44
including the attack on tally the decision would devastate Robin's mother but the ordeal was just beginning you
01:04:52
know there's only one perpetrator that little Stone but the ripples keep going there's victims and victims and
01:05:00
victims and [Music] victims the samso family was steadfast in the face of a second trial for the
01:05:19
murder of Robin they demanded Justice and he killed my child my child 6 years after the first verdict a
01:05:30
clean-cut Rodney alala was convicted a second time and again the sentence was death we the jury find the defendant
01:05:39
Rodney James alala guilty of the crime of violation death that's the only penalty that could ever be rendered in
01:05:49
the case it is this aala had been on San Quentin's death row since since 1980 now with a second conviction and a
01:05:59
second death sentence he was prepared to appeal all over again it was never really feeling safe that he
01:06:09
was locked up because you always thought there was a chance to' go free in 2001 22 years after he killed Robin samso a
01:06:19
federal appeals court overturned Rodney alcala's sentence for a second time based on evidence he didn't get to
01:06:27
present there would be a new trial for alala now in his 60s for Robin Sam so's family it was unbearable we've gone
01:06:37
through a lot of hell because of that animal a lot of Hell a lot of H the path to justice for Robin samso
01:06:46
would take almost a decade more in New York City 39 years since the murder of Cornelia Krill and 33 years
01:07:00
since Ellen Hover was killed Cold Case detectives were finally able to identify Rodney alala as the killer of both women
01:07:09
the strongest link was the fingerprint there was a letter um that was lodged underneath Cornelia kill's body and
01:07:19
there was a fingerprint developed from the outside of that envelope which was unmatched for many years and finally
01:07:28
through the FBI's database there was a match it was a significant piece of evidence but not enough standing alone
01:07:35
equally incriminating was the evidence left on her body there was bite mark evidence where he had bit in her breast
01:07:42
it's his his Dental impression is the one that's on her body and of course we looked at all of his other cases to see
01:07:50
similarities in sexual murders he had committed he decided we had enough evidence in Ellen Hoover's case
01:07:57
investigators now knew John Berger was Rodney alala and he had been seen near the Rockefeller Estates where her body
01:08:05
was found I think she was abducted here in Manhattan and ultimately killed up there
01:08:12
we had a witness who saw somebody who looked like Rodney Alcala at that time period with a woman who looked like
01:08:19
Ellen hover the man was carrying a camera bag just like Alcala did but the Manhattan prosecutors would have to wait
01:08:28
for California's third trial for Robin Sam's murder in Orange County assistant DA Matt Murphy was ready to go to court
01:08:37
when there was a stunning development DNA linked alala to three Los Angeles murders Jill barkham Georgia
01:08:47
Wicked and Charlotte lamb the killing of a fourth LA Woman Jill parento was also
01:08:55
tied to him right at that moment we realized that not only is Rodney alala a vicious murderer in our case but in fact
01:09:02
he is the serial killer that we always suspected him to be in a highly unusual maneuver the
01:09:08
California prosecutors decide to try all five cases together a bizarr looking Rodney alala would serve as his own
01:09:18
attorney on June the 20th 1979 Robin samso left bridgid wilber's there is no better Forum than to be
01:09:29
center stage in court as your own attorney and you cross-examine the witnesses you're like God in that
01:09:35
courtroom alala even called Robin sams's mother to the stand that was one of the
01:09:41
hardest things I've ever had to do in my life having him ask me questions desperate to impeach MaryAnn's character
01:09:48
alala confronted her about how during the first trial she had reportedly brought a gun to court she didn't deny
01:09:56
it I was going to shoot him right between the eyes if I could have gotten a shot at him but then she felt Robin's
01:10:03
presence all of a sudden I smelled her shampoo and I felt this warmth in my hand and I couldn't get my hand out of
01:10:12
my purse for the third time Robin Sam so's family waited as a jury decided Rodney alcala's fate this time there
01:10:23
were four other families waiting with them one of the many things that hurts me is that that was the last face she
01:10:30
saw and that bothers me cuz he's so ugly and he's so evil when the jury reached a verdict it
01:10:37
was a relief to the families who had been waiting for justice for so long the SOS hoped that this would finally be the
01:10:47
end way the Cherry find the defendant Rodney James alala guilty of the crime of Murder in the first degree
01:10:56
victim Robin C samso Rodney absolutely 100% deserves to die for what he did in a separate
01:11:05
penalty phase the prosecution called to the stand a ghost from his past my name is t
01:11:14
Shapiro I'm one of uh Rodney aa's first victims and one of the only living victims it should have stopped with me
01:11:24
why in the world world are there so many other victims when it was a known fact what he did to me Rodney alala
01:11:32
addressing the same jury that convicted him of murder makes an unusual plea for clemency let me put the death penalty in
01:11:40
perspective for you if you desire to join in the killing of a human being you and the families of the victims will
01:11:48
have to wait at least 15 to 20 years while the case slowly turns through the appell process he wanted to play an Arlo
01:11:55
Guri song Alice's Restaurant and there's a a part in that song where he talks about wanting to kill people and he
01:12:02
played that incredibly for the jury ala's perverse closing argument did not sway the
01:12:22
jury we the jury determined that the penalty to be imposed upon defendant Rodney James alala to be
01:12:32
death Rodney alala had been on death row for more than 30 years now convicted of five murders it
01:12:41
was unlikely he could win another appeal with the California cases settled the New York prosecutors were ready for
01:12:53
him but they were not expecting what would happen next he came back to New York in June of 2012 and by December he
01:13:02
pled guilty it it was a surprise it was a surprise that he pled guilty because he had denied um every crime he was ever
01:13:12
accused of Manhattan district attorney Cyrus Vance Jr announced alcala's sentence two concurrent prison terms of
01:13:22
25 years to life for both families who had lost all hope that these cases would ever be solved the
01:13:31
pleas by Rodney Alcala and today's sentencing brings closure to painful chapters in their lives the judge cried
01:13:41
during the sentencing and and Martha and I have been in this business for over 35
01:13:45
years each and I've never seen a judge cry during uh a sentencing as was agreed upon alala was
01:13:54
returned to San quent's death row I got a telephone call from Robin sams's mother and she said she was so grateful
01:14:03
um that we were doing this it's such a comfort to know that regardless of what might happen to the California cases if
01:14:11
for some reason he should get out he's coming back to New York and he's going to serve 25 to Life both the New York
01:14:19
and California prosecutors are haunted by the question are there other victims out there he crisscrossed the country
01:14:28
west coast East Coast East Coast West Coast crossed through a lot of states and I'm sure there are victims in those
01:14:35
States they just have to be found how come she hasn't contacted us that's not like
01:14:52
her Rodney Okala had been convicted of seven murders and was facing five separate death
01:15:00
penalties Kathy Thorton who had spent the last 39 years trying to track down her missing Sister Christine had never
01:15:08
heard of alala but her son did it would change Kathy's Quest forever the killing
01:15:16
game tonight's 48 Hours mystery in 2013 Kathy's son had watched a 48 hour Story on alala that led him to its website and
01:15:28
a series of photos taken by alala of unidentified women I got an email from my son that
01:15:35
said I saw these pictures take a look if you'd like Kathy scrolled through the images she kept stopping at one of them
01:15:44
a picture of a beautiful woman on the back of a motorcycle I said yeah that sure looks like Chris and then I saw her
01:15:51
little toe her baby toe and and that's one thing I always remembered about Chris was her little baby
01:15:58
toe was different it it hooked I just saw that tone I said oh yeah that's Chris Googling the name Rodney alala
01:16:09
Cathy's heart almost stopped Kathy now believed her sister had been traveling with a notorious serial
01:16:17
killer fearing the worst but still wanting answers Kathy submitted her own DNA to a national databas base of
01:16:25
missing persons if her sister's DNA was ever submitted they could be matched hundreds of miles away Jeff
01:16:37
sheeman a Wyoming detective was working on a very tough cold case they referred to my case as Granger Greta because it
01:16:45
was an unidentified female that was found in Granger Wyoming back in 1982 there were a lot of aerial photos
01:16:54
and photos from the scene when the body was found it was a desolate area County prosecutor Daniel aramas recalled his
01:17:02
predecessors had tried everything to help identify the victim the skull was intact and so the Wyoming State Crime
01:17:10
Lab was able to have an artist come in and uh use the skull as a form of of recreating what this victim looked like
01:17:22
[Music] more than 30 years had passed without a lead all sheiman could do was study the
01:17:32
old files with a new set of eyes the bones were found next to clothing uh the bones had been pulled apart uh
01:17:41
presumably by scavengers animals she'd been out there about 5 to 6 years it was the body of a 25 to 35y old female they
01:17:50
also told investigators at that time that uh she was also approximately six-month pregnant
01:17:57
sheiman was blown away when he found the Wyoming crime lab had saved skin tissue
01:18:03
and Bone fragments and all we got to do is get the ball rolling with send it to the proper authorities to start
01:18:10
processing it for um any DNA specifically mitochondrial DNA that's DNA from the mother's side of the family
01:18:17
siblings would be revealed as a match I honestly thought I would be 10 20 years retired before I'd even receive a phone
01:18:23
call saying they I identified her less than a year later Jeff got the miraculous news there was a match
01:18:30
between Kathy thoron and the unidentified bones I believe there was a lot of luck that went into it to went
01:18:37
into this whole case I believe that's what solved it as a lot of luck after 39 years of searching Kathy found Christine
01:18:45
her hunt was finally over and the story of what happened to her sister began to unravel during the summer of
01:18:53
1977 Christine split with her boyfriend and had the tragic Misfortune of meeting
01:19:00
Rodney alala their trip through the lonely Granger Prairie would be Christine's Last Ride when you see that
01:19:09
photo there's no doubt that she was having fun I think she just had no clue what he he was thinking what he was
01:19:18
capable of doing so I think you're happy I'm until the point point where you're not and at that point there was no no
01:19:30
Escape where would she go the location where the photo was taken to the location where Christine's
01:19:40
remains were found were within probably just a few yards of each other I believe that Rodney alala killed
01:19:50
Christine thoron shortly after that photograph was taken but before he would indict Alcala for
01:19:57
Chris Thorton's murder prosecutor Aram mospi wanted to interview him in September 2016 he flew with the
01:20:10
two detectives to California frail and in ill health Rodney Alcala had been moved from San Quenton to the medical
01:20:18
unit of corkran prison outside of Fresno when when we first arrived at corkran we
01:20:24
talked to some of the security staff they said that he was uh borderline dementia whatever his condition he was
01:20:32
still being treated like the dangerous serial killer that he was we went through numerous doors numerous gates to
01:20:40
this peach colored uh prison cell that looked like something off of a horror movie paints coming off the walls flies
01:20:48
buzzing around alal is on a bed facing a wall his feet were sticking out out from
01:20:54
underneath the sheets and you know he had long toenails we started pulling out photographs of the crime
01:21:01
scene he took 2 seconds to look at that photo and he said I know that area that's my area how alala reacted to
01:21:10
Christine's photograph was something the detectives will never forget it almost clicked like that with them and you
01:21:18
could almost tell that he was reliving that that day eventually he took the photograph
01:21:25
set it on his lap and he used his index finger and just started tracing her body
01:21:31
tracing her body for probably 5 minutes and eventually he sat the paper down flat and he started tapping tapping
01:21:42
on the photograph of Christine right over Christine's body just tapping the photograph and eventually the tapping
01:21:49
got louder I got louder he eventually looked at me as he kept tapping on the photo
01:21:55
and at that point I I honestly thought he would provide us more information about Christine but it was a game
01:22:02
despite his age his infirmity his close to 40 years behind bars Alcala was still
01:22:09
the master manipulator he'd always been he was very even Keel very the only time
01:22:15
he would show any type of of fervor in his voice would be when we would Point Blank ask him did you kill her and he
01:22:23
would say no no you're crazy you're stupid and then when I asked him was she alive when you left her and he said yes
01:22:36
she was alive when I left that's all the prosecutor really needed to hear the fact that he admitted he was there just
01:22:44
cinched it for me if he could deny killing her all he wants but the fact that he admitted is as far as I'm
01:22:51
concerned as a confession I decided to charge him with first de murder there would be no extradition to
01:22:58
Wyoming he's been in prison since 1979 why should we give him a trip a good place for Mr alala is in the the
01:23:07
bed we left him in so alala was never tried for Christine's murder but Kathy Thorton has finally
01:23:17
learned what happened to her sister along with seven other families she has the answer to the question
01:23:25
none of them ever wanted to ask how many others are there that you know did did the same thing
01:23:34
Chris did I honestly believe in my mind in my heart that that there's going to be other
01:23:41
victims seeing how arrogant he is knowing how uh Charming he apparently was back in the day and knowing how
01:23:50
smart he is um I wouldn't doubt it if there's 150 maybe even 200 victims out there I'm hoping that with this being
01:24:01
back in the news that someone might recognize someone in one of those photos like we did
01:24:09
[Music] [Music] help identify other possible victims online at 48 [Music] hours.com CBS next a mother of three
01:24:40
alone in her home it was an execution this was somebody who was there with a purpose a shadowy figure seen on camera
01:24:47
puts a neighborhood on edge were people scared that there was a killer loose definitely 48 Hours Prime time double
01:24:54
feature continues next on [Music] CBS you have a prepaid call from Lyle Menendez my name is l Menendez I'm at RJ
01:25:21
Donovan State Prison in San Diego California and I am here for killing my parents my brother and I were convicted
01:25:30
together first-degree murder verdicts for both Eric and Lyall Menendez excuse us this is a special report from the van
01:25:37
Courthouse both Menendez brothers have been found K how big a deal was the Menendez case well when you think back
01:25:43
it was huge the Mendez family was very wealthy this was Beverly Hills murders just don't typically happen Kitty was my
01:25:52
baby sister there was a brutal murder everyone from the gardener to the president had a view of what happened
01:26:05
I'm Jackie Lacy I'm the former elected district attorney of Los Angeles County a couple was sitting around watching TV
01:26:14
when their adult sons came in with shotguns and slaughtered them what did these parents do to deserve them there
01:26:26
must be a reason I just never been a kid of guilt or innocence it was always about why it
01:26:32
happened Jose Menendez was the self-made millionaire he was very driven very demanding the prosecutions theory was
01:26:40
they got tired of their lives being micromanaged they wanted to spend the money the way they wanted to spend the
01:26:47
money they were buying Rolex watches they were buying real estate the way that they act was not like oh my
01:26:56
goodness my parents are dead it was soulless it was strictly Greed from day one you believe they wanted a portion of
01:27:05
the money they wanted it all my name is Cliff Gardner I represent Eric and L Menendez
01:27:19
it's not a complex case it's a simple case they abused their whole life my dad had been molesting me he Bak me
01:27:29
did you ask him not to yes the brothers were claiming that we were molested by our father when we
01:27:38
threatened to go public they threatened to kill us and so we had to go in and kill them before they killed us I
01:27:43
thought he was going to kill me that night I never saw anything in a home never I have got to think that it was
01:27:50
their attorney's ideas that if your only way you're going to save your ass is to
01:27:54
say that you were molested and that's what they did it's divided the family immensely I love my cousins they
01:28:00
shouldn't have gone through what they went through they're not lying they were being
01:28:05
abused as you sit there in prison there is some news now that could really impact you and your brother's case right
01:28:14
yes that's pretty just sort of shocking former manuto singer Roy roselo claims he was drugged and raped by Jose
01:28:23
Menendez in the mid s Mano had just signed with RCA records where Menendez was a top executive we now have evidence
01:28:31
that makes absolutely clear that those boys were molested and if those boys were molested it would have been
01:28:36
manslaughter and they would be out the judge in this case if he finds that the New Evidence is credible and
01:28:43
the conviction should be vacated do you think the DA's office would seek a new trial I think they would spend a lot of
01:28:50
time thinking about it for years of incarceration you wonder when will be a fair review of this so
01:28:59
maybe now my hope in the case is that they'll finally walk out of prison [Music]
01:29:39
[Music] Lyle and Eric Menendez have been behind bars in California for more than three
01:29:54
three decades for the 1989 killing of their parents Jose and kitty Menendez convicted of first-degree murder and
01:30:02
sentenced to life in prison I really can't comment in a case that captured the nation's
01:30:09
attention they had no hope of ever walking free but new evidence may change that Eric chose not to speak with us for
01:30:17
this broadcast but Lyall did you have a prepaid call from ly Menendez this call and your telephone number will
01:30:26
be monitored and recorded hi Lyle can you hear me hi yeah I can hear you what did you think when you heard about these
01:30:34
new claims and evidence I mean for me I just was happy just a burden to be telling what happened to you and just
01:30:43
have so much doubt in the public air the question is not whether the Menendez brothers killed their parents they admit
01:30:51
that they did instead the focus of the case has long been why they did it they insist that they killed out of fear and
01:31:00
in self-defense after a lifetime of physical emotional and sexual abuse suffered at the hands of their parents
01:31:08
one of their lawyers Cliff Gardner says the New Evidence corroborates those claims and lessens their culpability if
01:31:16
the judge finds this evidence credible I think it is sufficient to give them a new
01:31:21
trial but to understand how we got here here we have to go back to the beginning
01:31:27
the evening of August 20th 1989 when Lyall Menendez made this call to 911 from the family's Beverly Hills
01:31:36
mansion Bly Hills emergency yes pleas uh what's the problem Ione kill my parents
01:31:44
pardon me so after officers responded to the scene then 21-year-old Lyle and 18-year-old
01:31:51
Eric reported that they had arrived home home to find their parents shot to death
01:31:56
in the family room Jackie Lacy was a deputy district attorney in Los Angeles at the time I think one of the Beverly
01:32:03
Hills detective described it as one of the most brutal crime scene he had ever seen in his life I've been in this
01:32:10
business for over 33 years and I've heard of very few murders that were more Savage than this one was Jose Menendez a
01:32:18
former top executive at RCA records and his wife Kitty had been shot multi multiple times at close range with a
01:32:26
shotgun it was an expression of hatred for these two people and that was the last time I saw her alive Milton
01:32:36
Anderson Kitty's older brother still remembers receiving the news my brother called me and he said that kitty and
01:32:43
Jose were were dead I loved her sister Kitty was a very ambitious girl she was a very beautiful woman
01:32:55
Kitty and Jose met when they were in college in Illinois Jose had come to the US from Cuba they went on to marry and
01:33:02
start a family Lyall and Eric were their only children over the years with Kitty
01:33:08
by his side Jose excelled in his career working for RCA records among other major companies he was going right up
01:33:18
the ladder without any hesitation at the time of his death Jose was working for a
01:33:23
film Studio running their home video division investigators initially suspected that the killings may have
01:33:30
been tied to his business dealings Lyall sort of indicated you know my dad dealt
01:33:35
with Shady characters and once you say something like that detectives are going to start to look at okay what were his
01:33:41
business contacts family members and investigators wondered whether it may have been Mafia related at the time the
01:33:49
home video industry was known for having ties to the Mob everybody's said was a modit because it was so brutal it it
01:33:56
really was like a scene out of The Godfather movies initially Lyle and Eric Menendez were not even on investigators
01:34:04
radar they didn't do any gunshot residue test on their hands they let him go back
01:34:09
and get evidence without even thinking hey could it have been the kids but they didn't stay off investigator's radar for
01:34:17
long their behavior in the wake of the crime eventually Drew scrutiny the brothers appeared to be spending their
01:34:23
their parents' money and lots of it they were investing in businesses they acted like they had won
01:34:31
the lottery and their Behavior at their parents' Memorial Services raised some eyebrows at the podium L read a letter
01:34:40
from Jose that was filled with love and pride for his sons did you see Lyle get emotional as he was reading that letter
01:34:49
no l also made a statement that his father always said you can never fill my shoes and he jokingly said guess what
01:34:59
I'm wearing my father's shoes today struck you as odd that he would say something like that I was very odd while
01:35:08
all that may have seemed unusual it wasn't hard evidence but then about 6 months later police got a tip from an
01:35:17
unlikely Source the girlfriend of a psychologist who Lyle and Eric Menendez had been talking to she told police that
01:35:26
the brothers had confessed to the killings in therapy and there was an audio taped recording of it but for that
01:35:33
confession who knows whether they've ever been caught on March 8th 1990 after police got their hands on that tape Lyle
01:35:40
Menendez was taken into custody Eric Menendez who was out of the country at the time surrendered to police days
01:35:48
later not many Hollywood murder mysteries ever took a more dramatic turn than police are describing in a cple
01:35:53
couple of savage Beverly Hills killings police say the motive was apparently money a $14 million inheritance to be
01:36:00
shared by the brothers but years later when the case made its way to trial the brothers would
01:36:07
make it clear that it might not be so simple and August 20th 1989 did you and your brother kill your
01:36:15
mother and father why did you kill your parents cuz we were afraid [Music] in the summer of
01:36:40
1993 nearly 4 years after Jose and kitty Menendez were gunned down in their home their sons Lyle and Eric Menendez
01:36:49
went on trial they faced the death penalty good afternoon the only question in this case
01:37:00
is why did these killings occur why they were killed is what the focus of all of
01:37:06
our evidence will be on what the defense was arguing was that since this was a self-defense case the brothers were
01:37:13
deserving of a lesser charge and Punishment the defense attorneys who tried the case didn't respond to our
01:37:19
request for an interview Cliff Gardner represents Lyall and Eric Endz today they had the defense of imperfect
01:37:27
self-defense imperfect self-defense meaning the brothers honestly believe that they had to take action to save
01:37:34
their lives even though it might not seem rational and if it's honest but unreasonable you are coupable of
01:37:40
manslaughter not of murder both brothers took the stand ly Menendez spoke of sexual abuse at the hands of his mother
01:37:48
and father he said his father began sexually abusing him when he was only 6 years old he would uh fondle me and he
01:37:58
would ask me to do the same with him over time he said it became worse he right me but while Lyall said
01:38:07
his father stopped sexually abusing him when he was eight Eric said it never ended for him and that he finally
01:38:15
confided in his older brother days before the crime at age 18 I didn't know what to do at the time so I figured i'
01:38:23
tell Lyall and maybe he could help me he started telling me that one of the reasons he had never told me before was
01:38:29
cuz my dad had always threatened his life the brothers testified that Lyle soon confronted their parents and that
01:38:36
their mother indicated she knew about the abuse all along in Anger Lyle said he directed a threat at his father I
01:38:44
told him that I would tell everybody then he said we all make choices in life son Eric made his you've made yours what
01:38:53
did you think was going to happen I thought we were in danger I thought he had no he felt he had no
01:39:01
choice but to what that he would kill us the brothers testified that they got into another argument with their parents
01:39:09
on the night of the crime and that they believed their parents were about to kill them to keep the family secret from
01:39:16
coming out so they said they grabbed shotguns that they had bought two days earlier for protection went into the
01:39:24
family room and started shooting their parents at one point even stopping to reload and what did you do after you
01:39:47
reloaded I ran around shot my mom the defense call us next witness to bolster their claims of abuse the
01:39:56
defense called to the stand numerous relatives friends and acquaintances of the family who described incidents of
01:40:04
physical and emotional abuse that they said they observed Alan Anderson Lyall and Eric's cousin was one of those
01:40:12
Witnesses growing up Allan would spend summers at the Mendez home he had a lot to say about Jose hitting the kids with
01:40:19
the belt never had a problem with that and kitty she wouldn't get up to consult the children nothing while none of the
01:40:27
witnesses including Alan ever saw Lyle or Eric Menendez being sexually abused Allan did recall something that struck
01:40:35
him as odd Jose would tell the boys in the bedroom and then he would close the door and then he'd take showers with him
01:40:43
he says during that time Kitty wouldn't let him go near the room so I was not allowed while the boys were alone with
01:40:50
Jose with the door closed in the master bedroom to go down the hall to probably not hear whatever I may hear another
01:41:00
cousin Diane vandermolen gave similar testimony and she also recounted a conversation she says she had with Lyle
01:41:08
when he was eight um he proceeded to indicate to me by touching himself uh down and and saying that his dad and him
01:41:19
had been touching each other down there and what did you do I went and got Kitty
01:41:26
and uh told her what was going on and what happened when Kitty came down she didn't believe me Andy Cano yet another
01:41:34
cousin also took the stand and testified about a conversation he says he had with
01:41:40
Eric when Eric was about 13 He told me his father was massaging his he told me never to reveal it to
01:41:50
anybody still prosecutors argued that even even if Lyall and Eric Mendez were abused it doesn't give them the right to
01:41:58
kill and they pointed out that when the brothers confessed to that psychologist they never mentioned abuse or
01:42:04
self-defense then the timing of disclosure was convenient the prosecutors who tried the case didn't
01:42:12
respond to our request for an interview former Los Angeles County DA Jackie Lacy
01:42:17
reviewed portions of the trial at our request and people do make things up when they're life is on the
01:42:27
line but all these years later ly Menendez maintains they are telling the truth and the reason they didn't come
01:42:35
forward then was complicated what was holding you back just shame just not wanting it to be public the pure nature
01:42:45
of the crime however says Lacy doesn't support the brother's claim that they acted in
01:42:51
self-defense prosecutors pointed out that Jose and kitty were watching TV at the time they were killed and they
01:42:58
weren't armed in order to get close enough to blow somebody away you would have been able to see that they didn't
01:43:06
have weapons ly Menendez is adant that he and his brother were in fear for their lives for me it was
01:43:15
just dark and confusing and total belief that there was danger you know it's f flight to a degree that was Panic the
01:43:26
prosecution argued the evidence proves the killings were premeditated when the brothers purchased those shotguns
01:43:33
prosecutors said that they took steps to cover their tracks like driving to a gun
01:43:39
store all the way in San Diego San Diego is not a Round the Corner Drive last time I checked it was
01:43:46
2 hours sometimes after they killed their parents they went around and picked up the expend
01:43:53
shotgun shell casings so that their fingerprints wouldn't be discovered on those shells there was a lot of thought
01:44:02
and a lot of deliberation that went into it they also got rid of the shotguns made that 911 call who is the person
01:44:11
that was shot my mom and my dad and misled the initial investigators prosecutors pointed to
01:44:20
money as the motive they said Jose man has told his sons he had removed them from his will and based on their
01:44:28
investigation they suggested that after the crime Lyall Menendez attempted to destroy a will on the family computer
01:44:36
Lyle denies doing that and insists money had nothing to do with what happened if
01:44:42
there was a new will it was never found we never had any financial problems with
01:44:48
my parents although the brothers were tried together there were two separate juries deciding their fate when
01:44:55
deliberations began they stretched on for weeks before both juries determined they were divided over whether Lyle and
01:45:03
Eric Mendez should be convicted of murder or manslaughter therefore I find that the jury is hopelessly
01:45:12
deadlocked a mistrial was declared it was just a devastating result I needed it to be over one way or
01:45:20
the other but it was far from over prosecutors would try the case again they needed a win the heat was
01:45:29
[Music] [Music] on nearly 2 years passed as Lyall and Eric Mendez sat in jail awaiting a
01:45:51
second trial some of their family members like Alan Anderson believed that they were justified in the killings I
01:45:59
know they did what they did because they were in fear of their life While others
01:46:03
like Kitty's brother Milton Anderson considered them coldblooded Killers I don't believe that Jose or Kitty would
01:46:12
do any of the things that they were accused of Jose was changing his will and that's when they went on bought the
01:46:17
shotguns at the retrial which began in October 1995 one jury instead of two would hear
01:46:24
the casee no video cameras were allowed in court and a new team of prosecutors would employ a different strategy the
01:46:32
first trial was okay there may have been abuse but we don't allow vigilantes in our society the second trial the
01:46:37
prosecution's case there was no abuse at all and what made it easier for prosecutors to argue that says attorney
01:46:43
Cliff Gardner is the fact that the prosecution raised new and successful objections to the admission of a large
01:46:51
amount of Defense evidence now the jury would hear from only some not all of the witnesses who knew the
01:46:59
Menendez family and helped corroborate the brother's claims of abuse the da was not going to take another loss they
01:47:06
could not take another loss the judge who had also presided over the first trial excluded the testimony on the
01:47:13
grounds that it was irrelevant repetitive and in some instances lacking in Foundation because this time Lyall
01:47:21
Menendez would not not take the stand Eric did testify why did you decide not to
01:47:28
speak uh for two reasons I was just done after the first trial and I didn't have
01:47:33
the attorney that I trusted so much to ask me these deep personal questions but Carol Nara the only surviving lead
01:47:41
prosecutor from the second trial who declined to speak with us suggested in a 1996 interview there might have been
01:47:49
another reason why Lyall didn't take the stand there were things that had been developed since the first trial that
01:47:56
would have damaged his credibility a great deal prosecutors said they had new evidence that Lyle had asked a friend
01:48:04
and a former girlfriend to fabricate testimony Lyle admits to 48 hours that he did do that but says he later
01:48:13
withdrew those requests because Lyall didn't take the stand his cousin Diane Vander Mullen was
01:48:19
prohibited from testifying about that conversation she says she had with Lyle when he was eight in which she says
01:48:26
Lyall told her that his father was touching him the jury did still hear from cousin Andy Cano about that similar
01:48:33
conversation he claimed to have had with a 13-year-old Eric but the prosecution attacked his credibility the state's
01:48:41
position was that Andy was a liar and when cousin Alan Anderson took the stand prosecutors attacked his credibility too
01:48:49
bringing up the fact that ly Menendez gave him money after the crime Anderson says it was to help pay for a medical
01:48:57
procedure he didn't say anything like well if I go to court know or no he it was just straight up between him and I
01:49:05
him being a nice cousin knowing I was in financial bind he knew he had the resources to help me at the second trial
01:49:13
prosecutors placed more of a focus on the brutality of the crime and they painted Jose as a restrained loving
01:49:20
father someone incapable of M leting his children prosecutors referred to the brother's defense as the abuse
01:49:28
excuse in the first trial the defense called more than 50 Witnesses this time they called about half it wasn't that
01:49:36
they didn't want to present them they were not allowed the jury deliberated for days
01:49:42
and then the verdicts are in in the retrial of Eric and ly Menendez guilty of first-degree murder
01:49:52
I hugged my brother we cried and I said look we're going to be okay I was not happy at all at the jury's
01:50:00
recommendation the brothers were sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of
01:50:06
parole and you believe they deserved that oh what they did to my sister they should have gotten a death
01:50:13
penalty Lyle and Eric Mendez were sent to separate prisons more than two decades p and then around 2020 the case
01:50:23
made a surprising Resurgence on social media following a documentary that aired on the case in which Eric Menendez
01:50:32
repeated his claims of abuse droves of people took to Tik Tok and Instagram to express support for him and his brother
01:50:41
Dr Judy hoe is a neuroschistosomiasis I definitely think that our society has just become more knowledgeable about
01:50:57
trauma and the impact of sexual trauma Dr Ho says research shows that just because the brothers delayed reporting
01:51:06
abuse it doesn't mean they made it up that's all very consistent with people who have been through trauma and maybe
01:51:12
feel like it was even their own fault in some ways or they're ashamed of the trauma and there's a lot more
01:51:19
self-stigma and shame associated with male victims she also says that the abuse the brothers describe could even
01:51:27
help explain why the crime was so brutal it makes sense that in that moment it's
01:51:32
almost like a breakdown and that's not to make an excuse for anything that they've done but it's just to describe
01:51:37
the State of Mind of this is years and years of abuse where they couldn't act to protect themselves and once they
01:51:43
pulled the trigger it was like there was no turning back but could Lyall and Eric
01:51:47
Mendez have truly been in fear for their lives that night they're 18 and 21 why couldn't they leave right well
01:51:54
certainly there was a path that they could have taken is to try to get away from the family but it sounds like even
01:51:59
at that age they were very much under the control of their father still I think that often times what people are
01:52:05
not aware of is that trauma completely rewires the brain they probably did think at one point it was either them or
01:52:12
their parents that it was a fight ORF flight conditioning that had come up attorney Cliff Gardner believes the case
01:52:18
would be tried differently today the idea back then was a dads don't molest their children and if by chance it
01:52:26
happened these are 18 and 21 year old kids they're strapping young men they just leave and both those I think are
01:52:33
undercut in what we know today still a better understanding of the effects of sexual abuse and some social media
01:52:40
support would do little on their own to make a difference in the brother's case legally instead what their defense
01:52:47
needed was new evidence and eventually that's what it gone not did you or Eric think that another person would accuse
01:52:57
your father of child molestation I did not I could not believe [Music] it over the years Lyall and Eric Mendez
01:53:22
appealed their convictions but were unsuccessful it seemed unlikely that they would ever see beyond Prison Walls
01:53:32
but then new evidence began to surface the first piece in the form of a letter just kind of out of the blue one
01:53:41
of uh my father's sister found a letter in store pellet attorney Cliff Gardner says
01:53:48
the letter was written by Eric Menendez to his cousin Andy Cano in in December 1988 about 8 months before the crime
01:53:58
it's not dated but you were able to get a frame of reference of the timing of it
01:54:02
based on the contents of the letter exactly he talks about the Christmas party we know the Christmas party that
01:54:08
they put on was in Christmas of 88 he talks about hiring a new tennis coach there's a number of things in the letter
01:54:15
that allow us to authenticate when it was written and it's a particular section of the letter that Gardner says
01:54:21
is key he says I've been trying to avoid Dad it's still happening Andy but it's worse
01:54:28
for me now every night I stay up thinking he might come in I'm afraid he's crazy he's warned me a hundred
01:54:35
times about telling anyone especially l no one knew about it a trial it was never
01:54:43
presented remember Andy Cano did testify at both trials he said that Eric Mendez
01:54:50
at age 13 confided in him that his dad had been touching him prosecutor suggested that Cano was lying he
01:54:59
explained to me that these massages that his father was giving him were beginning
01:55:03
to hurt the letter is significant why well the state's position was that Andy was a
01:55:10
liar Andy was making it up this shows that Andy wasn't making it up it's contemporaneous evidence from Eric to
01:55:18
his cousin Andy about what was happening but the letter was just the beginning more evidence has surfaced that Gardner
01:55:25
says further supports Lyall and Eric Mendes's long-standing claims that they were sexually
01:55:32
abused a man named Roy roselo has come forward claiming that he was sexually abused by Jose Menendez too well I was a
01:55:41
member of the boy band menudo which was big in late '70s mid 80s there a sensation in the Spanish
01:55:52
speaking world and throughout Latin America their appeal has caught on big menudo originated in Puerto Rico the
01:56:02
band is best known for producing bigname Talent like singer Ricky [Music] Martin the idea behind the band was to
01:56:13
keep it perpetually young few of the performers remained in the group beyond the age of 16 instead being rotated out
01:56:21
for younger talents it turns out Jose Menendez had ties to the group Jose Menendez was working at
01:56:28
RCA at the time and RCA signed mudo to a recording contract former menudo member
01:56:34
Roy roselo now 54 was not available for an interview with 48 hours but in a sworn affidavit filed just last year he
01:56:43
claims he went to Jose menendez's home in the early 80s at the direction of the band's then manager Edgardo Diaz marelo
01:56:52
would have been between 14 and 15 years old at the time he says he drank a glass
01:56:57
of wine then felt like he had no control over his body he says Jose Menendez took him to a
01:57:06
room and raped him roselo first spoke publicly about the allegations in a documentary
01:57:14
[Music] [Music] anymore roselo also alleges that he was sexually abused by Jose Menendez on two
01:57:30
other occasions right before and right after a performance at Radio City Music Hall in New York I met Roy and he talked
01:57:39
to me about it it was a difficult conversation for him it was difficult for me to hear but I thought Roy was
01:57:46
credible it can take years for people to recognize what happened to have the courage to come
01:57:54
forward when I first heard I cried for me it was very meaningful to just have things come out that caused
01:58:06
people to really realize okay at least this part of what it's about is true ly Menendez says he remembers mudo
01:58:13
band members coming over to the family home when they lived in New Jersey before moving to Beverly Hills he does
01:58:21
not recall all Rell specifically what do you remember about the mudo band members
01:58:28
going to your home only that my father had sort of intimate involvement with that particular group they usually would
01:58:36
not have too much involvement with groups other than negotiations but with Mano and Ardo Diaz he traveled with them
01:58:44
he went to their concerts he stayed in hotels that they stayed at ly Menendez says he didn't think much
01:58:50
of it until rumored began surfacing towards the end of he and his brother's first trial people in the industry were
01:58:58
talking about that maybe something had happen because there was a sex scandal in the
01:59:02
group Roso along with other former menudo members have long accused Edgardo Diaz the band's one-time manager of
01:59:10
sexual abuse Diaz has always denied the allegations and no charges have been filed against him the Los Angeles Police
01:59:18
Department recently investigated a specific incident in which Roso alleged Diaz raped him at this hotel in the
01:59:25
1980s the LA County DA's office is now reviewing the case but what does this new evidence mean in terms of Lyall and
01:59:33
Eric menendez's case importance of the New Evidence you have to look back and understand what the state's position was
01:59:39
at the second trial the state's position was that the sexual abuse never happened and the state's position as to
01:59:46
Jose Menendez was he wasn't the type of person who would molest a young boy this
01:59:50
new evidence takes both both those arguments and undercuts them entirely Gardner has filed a habous
01:59:57
petition asking that his clients convictions be vacated the boys were abused his children they were abused
02:00:04
their whole life and this is a manslaughter case not a murder case it's just that
02:00:09
simple and if they were convicted of manslaughter they would have received a much shorter sentence and been out a
02:00:17
long time ago but will a judge by Gardner's argument it is very very possible that Jose
02:00:26
Mendez was a child molester but you don't get to murder him and his wife in Cold
02:00:40
Blood what do you make of the New Evidence to see a timeline of how the case unfolded go to 48 hours.com
02:00:52
[Music] after attorney Cliff Gardner filed the habus petition in May 2023 asking that
02:01:03
Lyall and Eric Menendez convictions be vacated it turned into a waiting game for a judge to rule we ask former da
02:01:11
Jackie Lacy what she makes of the New Evidence starting with that letter one that appears to have been written by
02:01:17
Eric Menendez to his cousin Andy Cano months before the the crime the interesting thing about the letter is
02:01:25
that there are only two people who can authenticate it Andy Kano and Eric Mendez Andy Cano died in 2003 and Lacy
02:01:34
points out that he never mentioned the letter when he testified you would think when Andy was
02:01:40
on the stand twice he'd have brought that up and oh yeah he told me about it recently and here's the letter the
02:01:47
timing of that letter though you are able to sort of pin down because you know it was holidays because he writes
02:01:53
about his Christmas plans but Natalie look at it another way and you could include those details and get that
02:02:00
letter together after they were caught this letter for all we know could have been written by Eric Menendez shortly
02:02:08
after the murder given to Kano and Kano may have gotten cold feed about it and not submitted it but Gardner argues the
02:02:17
New Evidence is sound he says the reason the letter was not brought up at is likely because Eric Menendez and Andy
02:02:25
Cano forgot about it if you look at the letter it's not just about what Jose's been doing it's about all sorts of other
02:02:32
things it was just one of many letters that they wrote to each other there really shouldn't be any doubt about the
02:02:38
authenticity of the letter and as for Roy roselo the former menudo band member can you discount his claims Al together
02:02:47
no I think what the judge has to weigh and consider is is this new discovered evidence that would have changed the
02:02:54
verdict and Lacy says she does not believe it would have they're still stuck with the planning the cover up the
02:03:03
money that they spent afterwards I think that you could argue the sexual abuse occurred on the other hand at the moment
02:03:12
these men are driving down to San Diego paying for the murder weapons coming back and waiting for an opportune time
02:03:23
to go in and kill their parents the molestation is not occurring right then I do not believe that at the time they
02:03:31
murdered them that they were in danger at that particular minute of being murdered by those people I think they
02:03:38
hated them they might have had a good reason to hate them but we can't condone vigilantism when you calmly and
02:03:47
logically looked at the facts surrounding the killing it's a murder but Gardner believes the New Evidence
02:03:55
would have made a difference to the jurors he says evidence of abuse can mitigate a crime and that's why
02:04:02
prosecutors fought so hard to keep it out of the second trial sexual abuse physical abuse is relevant to your state
02:04:10
of mind uh and state of mind is the key in determining whether something's murder or whether something's
02:04:15
man what this evidence does is it puts you back in the situation that they were in with the first trial that there was
02:04:22
corroboration for the abuse and in the first trial remember two juries were divided over whether the brothers should
02:04:29
have been convicted of murder or manslaughter the court declares a mistrial Gardner thinks this new
02:04:36
evidence combined with that of the first trial rules out murder entirely My Hope
02:04:42
in the case is that the judge will realize that this new evidence is indeed credible and persuasive and he'll vacate
02:04:48
the convictions if that happens it would be up to the loss Angeles County District Attorney's Office whether to
02:04:54
retry the case in a statement the District Attorney's office said it is investigating the claims made in the
02:05:01
habus petition Alan Anderson wants to see his cousins released what I would say the prosecut the judge would be
02:05:09
please look at all of the evidence they are speaking the truth they shouldn't be in there as long as they've been but
02:05:17
still Kitty menendez's brother Milton Anderson feels just the opposite he says he doesn't believe the New Evidence is
02:05:25
credible I don't think it's evidence and he wants his nephews to stay put I think
02:05:30
they should die of old age in prison I loved my sister and I protected her in life and I will love my sister
02:05:40
and protect her in her death ly Menendez says he understands his uncle's Pain part of my remorse is for the pain that
02:05:48
calls people like him as they await a judge's decision ly and Eric Menendez who reside in the same prison since 2018
02:05:57
are focused on Rehabilitation and continuing their education I connect with other prisoners
02:06:03
that have sex abuse histories and work with them both brothers are married to women outside prison I think it has made
02:06:11
a huge difference to have love and support like that I try not to be defined by that one
02:06:19
night and sort of a life Journey not to be defined by that one [Music] night new CBS next a former state
02:06:39
trooper's wife found dead in her bathtub it was a gunshot but was it a cover up for murder Dan thought he was smart
02:06:45
enough to trick everybody the packed duffel bag wet towels it looks odd a new 48 hours next on CBS and streaming on
02:06:53
Paramount Plus [Music]