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Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara Swisser
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>> and I'm Scott Galloway. >> Uh this is an emergency pod. We do these
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from time to time with news, especially if it's breaking and obviously what's
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happened over the weekend in Minnesota has been heinous in many ways, in all ways actually. Um so we had to jump on
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here to talk about the situation. Tensions are exploding in reaction to federal agents shooting and killing
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37year-old ICU nurse Alex uh Prey in Minneapolis on Saturday. This is the second fatal shooting by federal agents
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this month with Governor Tim Walls calling for Trump to halt ICE operations in the state. Meanwhile, Trump
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administration uh the Trump administration is trying to cast blame on the victim and local Democratic
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lawmakers. Border Patrol Command Gregory Bavino appeared on CNN's State of the
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Union with Dana Bash earlier. And here's what that tiny horrible man had to say.
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>> All of the video that we have seen shows him documenting it with his cell phone,
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which is a lawful thing to do. And the only time he seemed to interact with law enforcement is when they went after him
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when he was trying to help an individual who law enforcement pushed down. So where do you have the evidence to show
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that he was trying to impede that uh that law enforcement operation? >> Sure, Dana. First, he was there in the
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scene. He was in the scene actively impeding and assaulting law enforcement to the point.
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>> But that's not illegal. He wasn't he wasn't impeding it. He was filming it,
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which is a legal thing to do in the United States of America. >> Dan, let's let's don't freeze frame
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adjudicate this now. >> Let's freeze frame adjudicated. Everyone saw it from a hundred different angles.
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There was video everywhere. And uh this small little Himmler wannabe doesn't
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seem to understand that. Attorney General Pam Bonnie gave Tim Walls three conditions to quote restore the rule of
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law. She wants them to hand over the info about the state's welfare programs,
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grant access to state voter roles, and repeal sanctuary policies. Let's focus
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on the middle one, which we will. They want these voter roles uh because of the midterm elections. Let's talk about the
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Democratic response. Democrats are obviously in an uproar and AOC and others calling for Senate Democrats to
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block ICE spending this week. Democrats would have to shut down a large portion of the government in order to do that.
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They seem willing to do so. Representative Robin Kelly of Illinois is asking colleagues to sign uh onto her
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articles of impeachment against DHS Secretary Christy Nome. Meanwhile, Megan Kelly appeared to agree that ICE should
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get out of Minnesota, but she was just being awful. She tweeted at real Donald Trump should pull ICE out of Minnesota
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today and announced there'll be no more immigration enforcement in Minnesota at
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all. All illegals in the US are encouraged to move there. If any illegal is found outside of Minnesota and gets
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deported, they will never reply for re-entry. She is a cruel and tireless turmagant. Hours after this young man
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was killed, uh, Trump and Melania went ahead with a previously scheduled screening of her new documentary Melania
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at the White House. Guests included Tim Cook along with AMD CEO Lisa Sue, the CEO of Zoom, uh, and Mike Tyson and Tony
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Robbins. Strange group of people, but a lot of tech CEOs. Also Andy Jasse, the CEO of Amazon. In any case, a a really
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terrible uh day for the United States of America. Scott, your thoughts? >> Well, typically you'd have some you'd
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want to deescalate and say, "Let's wait till there's a full investigation, but
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unfortunately the institutions conducting these investigations now are no longer trusted."
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And with good reason, the American public doesn't believe that these investigations will be be fair
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investigations. So you have to turn to the, you know, kind of the frame adjudication.
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And what the frame shows is that one, this individual was clearly exercising just free speech. All free speech is not
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exempt. You know, if you incite violence, that's not free speech. But it's
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difficult to see how in any way this individual was inciting violence. He was just filming what was happening. He
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moved to help protect somebody or comfort them after they had been knocked down.
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Uh so his first amendment rights were clearly violated. Two, the second amendment is the right to bear arms. He
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was carrying a weapon which he had a legal license um for carry for. Uh the gun was removed from him. He did not
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take out the dum. He did not wave it at anybody. It was in his waistband. It was
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taken out. And then uh so his first and second amendment rights were violated in
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about 15 seconds. And then a couple of things that I noticed that were even more disturbing
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were one, when a gunshot goes off, these quote unquote trained federal agents scattered.
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You when your gun goes off, you're supposed to make sure the person you think is firing the gun, you look for
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their hands, you look for the gun. They did none of that. They scattered. and Representative Seth Molton, who's a
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veteran and I believe a Marine who served in I believe it was Iraq, said that if this had happened in the middle
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of a combat zone and a a combatant, enemy combatant who had been disarmed was treated this way, the officers and
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the enlisted men involved in that murder would be court marshaled. So the rules of engagement are now more reckless and
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more violent in the suburbs of Minneapolis than they are in Mogadishu during a war. So this has gone
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um so far and this notion that this has anything to do with the constitution. Everyone is
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now ignoring the constitution. The other word that comes to my mind is cowardice
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and that is Trump and Secretary Gnome are perpetrating violence under the oposis that it has something to do with
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immigration. They want a third party that will take the blame or the be the shock absorber for this depravity and
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that is an agency full of masked secret police. I mean they're not even taking
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responsibility for this violence. They're trying to keep it in arms. >> No, they said the victims were the ICE
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officers. That's what Gregory Abino said to Dana Bash who did a terrific job
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trying to take explain to him why he was lying essentially. But go ahead. >> What are your what are your thoughts on
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this character? >> Uh I just Scott it's uh this is repulsive and in every way on on every
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aspect of it the what what had happened there. I mean one one point I called these people incompetent. Everyone's
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like no they're evil in evil is incompetent. They're both evil and incompetent. Um and I don't throw around
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those things. I don't throw around Nazi tournaments very easily. But this is
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that's what it looks that's what it is. And especially even the outfit as Greg
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as Governor Nome pointed out with Greg Babino who is completely incompetent and also evil. And I don't use those terms
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lightly. I really don't. And I find when you when you throw them about. But this
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man was using a phone a phone to take to take pictures. And that's what he's
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allowed to do. He was peaceful. He was leaning down to help a woman who was shoved down by police who was doing
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nothing but exercising her right. They kept calling it a Today Todd Blanch, another terrible person in the
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administration and a pedophile protector. Let's just note that. Um was saying that that he was it was a riot.
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It wasn't by any means a riot. They were blaming the police of Minnesota. And I
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just interviewed the mayor of of of Minneapolis. They have 600 officers. There's 3,000 ICE uh there's 3,000 ICE
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uh members. They can't protect them, especially when they're behaving like
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thugs and attacking the citizens. They're there to protect the citizens, not the ICE, not the ICE force, which is
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enormous, and you can't do that. And they are trying to create violence. It's
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very obvious what they're trying to do. And then laying the blame on they there's literally there there's nothing
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I don't believe we're even arguing that this guy did anything. He didn't. and to
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and everyone can see it. And what was really astonishing to me was all the angles and the people and the citizens
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there putting themselves in harm's way to take these pictures, right? This woman in the pink jacket, there's a
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woman in a car. There's there's every angle of this thing. There's a woman in
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a car straight on. There's one across the street, there's one in front of him,
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there's one on the other side. These people don't understand. We see you. We
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see what you're doing. It is not. and to try to look at it any other way and
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especially because he was on the ground, you can absolutely see what happened and
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then the guy pulls out the gun and shoots him for no reason. There's and one of the things which was astonishing,
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one of the people taking the pictures said, "What did you just do? What did
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you just do?" And that is the qu what in the why in the world would you do that?
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There were six, seven people on this guy and it's I have to tell you one thing,
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the power of digital is really strong. You see, people see it like I I don't
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understand why these people don't think cell phones exist in this world. The
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second part is the silence from our business community, the silence from these people. They went to the White
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House last night. Could they just beg off like to go to the Melania screening which nobody wants to see? Could they
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say something publicly? Like I I just the the silence of our business people especially the tech people and then many
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and many people like Bill Aman as usual because you can't shut his diarrhea mouth could not help but blame everybody
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but who shot this man which were these officers. Um obviously Minnesota has moved this time because they learned
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from the first and I this is a murder is what this is. They learned from the first one that they tried to take
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evidence they scattered. as you said, you can't leave the scene of of an that
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some a shooting like that, a fatal shooting. And then the last thing I would say is the citizens of Minnesota,
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I'm wearing a a Minnesota Star Tribune. I have to say the press is doing a great
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job there. The Minnesota Star Tribune and others, these are citizens that are not going to take this [ __ ] And I I
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know you call for leaders, but we are the leaders, right? Citizens are the leaders, not our politicians. I will say
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the Democrats had, especially AOC, especially, you know, all of them were very strong about what was going on. The
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Minnesota >> people were actually quite under control over what's happening. Governor Walls, I
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thought, conducted himself really well. Uh the police officers uh of the state of in Minnesota are horrified. You can
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see that and they conducted themselves really well. The only people conducting themselves like the thugs and fascists
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they are are the Trump administration and they will not outlive they the shame will outlive them of what they've done
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and they don't care. So that's the only problem here. >> Yeah. In Switzerland last week there was
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a lot of talk about I thought how how can I take my time here and make it effective. So, I spent a lot of time
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when I was on these panels talking about how the Islamic Republic is executing people on the street. And my colleague
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Katherine Dylan reminded me, she said, "Scott, you realize that our government
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is executing people on the streets of Minneapolis right now." >> Which was a very puncturing point.
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>> Yeah. >> And just to, if it's okay with you, move to potential ideas around how to
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>> counter ICE. Um, Timothy Snyder, I was I always go to his feed and to Heather Cox
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Richardson to try and find some >> amazing from them. Yeah, go ahead. >> Around this. And Timothy said something
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really powerful. He said, "If you're waiting," and this is my thought. I'm
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always kind of waiting for a democratic Jesus to pop up and lead us like a Mandela to the promised land. And
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typically real movement doesn't happen from political parties. It happens from
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people >> absolutely >> or citizens. And protest is really powerful. It's very symbolic. But in
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this instance, I think it's actually quite I don't want to say it's not
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effective, but I don't think the administration cares. I don't think that's going to move the needle in the
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short run. A man the medium in the long run. I think what Governor Walls and some some politicians have said is more
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powerful and that is start making a list quite frankly and very publicly saying that the statute of limitations on
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murder is never and in exactly 2 years and 11 months we're coming for you. I
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think we have to create new incentives here. And then something I'm spending a
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lot of time thinking about and trying to get some politicians on board with and some public figures is the following.
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If you if you want to look at the fastest political movement in history, it was actually about exactly six years
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ago and that was 2020 when the GDP went down 31% because of COVID. We had the greatest political
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movement in history in terms of actual move to action. And my fear is that every few years we protest, we make
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signs, we chant, we gather, it feels good, it looks great on CNN, and then nothing happens. If you want to
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understand real power and the difference between being right and being effective,
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stop watching protests and start watching uh gross domeic products, specifically GDP. Uh Trump does not
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respond to outrage. He responds to markets. And that's not cynicism. It's
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mechanics. I'm not talking about a labor strike. This isn't unions, picket lines,
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or collective bargaining. I'm talking about something quieter, far more unsettling to the system, and that is an
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economic strike. A short-term coordinated withdrawal from spending, and maybe work, no marching, no slogans,
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um just less. And >> well, we forget they did that in Minnesota. They had a day. The business
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is closing. >> It can't be a day. A day is annoyance. It needs to be a week or a month. And it
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needs to be national. The US economy is 27 trillion. That's 74 billion a day.
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And here's our power, Cara. Our economy is 70% consumer-driven. Consumers actually have more power, not
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in signs or in guns or even in their vote right now. They have it in the power of the purse. in that a very small
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change in behavior could have an enormous effect and that is uh nothing in modern his American
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history moves policy faster. Now marches not speech is just math and then if you
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think about what you could do here if wealthy households took their spending down 10% and middle class and lower
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income households which have a difficult time reducing their spend took it down 5%. you would take GDP negative almost
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overnight and then it's hard because it requires coordination. It's risky especially for
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people living paycheck to paycheck. But that's exactly why it works and that is
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power fears withdrawal more than resistance because resistance is noisy but withdrawal is expensive and it's
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it's a question around what actually works and the history and the data I believe are not ambiguous. when nothing
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moves, uh, everyone listens. And that's not ideology, it's economics. And that
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you don't need permission to opt out. And in a symptom, and in a system, capitalism built entirely on
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participation, the most radical act in capitalism isn't protest, it's nonparticipation.
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If you wanted the fastest blue line path, and there might even be a simpler way, I believe if you could convince
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America, the entire economy now is built on AI. If you could convince a bunch of Americans to cancel their
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chat GPT or OpenAI accounts and all of a sudden OpenAI had to announce that their
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subscriptions had fallen off a cliff, that would ripple into Nvidia. That would ripple into Microsoft.
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And these are the people that Trump cares about. And this is what the S&P This is what the economy cares about.
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>> I I say this point. I don't I don't agree with you about protests. I think
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they do. They It's all part of the same package. It's an aggressive media who
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follows this and reports on things. It is these protests because I do think people putting their their lives on the
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line in the street matters. I think it does. It has >> I don't mean to diminish it. I worry
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it's more cinematic than effective because I don't think the Trump administration cares.
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>> Different in this new environment of video everywhere. I do think it is
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effective and I do think it >> definitely from a policing and an accountability.
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>> Correct. And it changes people's minds because people are I mean people are are it's horrifying and
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everyone we can see you. We see you is a really powerful thing. I think the media
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has to step up and there everyone folks there's a reason these billionaires uh
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right-wingers need to own this stuff because they're trying to control the message. Absolutely. No question.
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They're trying to even hand it. Um, I was told by someone uh uh at CBS, they're like, "You could watch this and
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if you were pro MAGA, you'd like it, and if you were anti-MAGA, you'd like it."
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And that's how we want it to be. That's a terrible thing to to try to do. There
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is truthful, not neutral is the way um the press should be acting right now. Uh I thought I think I think a lot of them
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have been woken up into this in a much more instead of a well, what is your thoughts here, Scott [ __ ] Jennings?
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>> Like that's enough. That's enough of that. Seriously. Um, there's no thoughts
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here about shooting someone and there's no I was listening I often listen to
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comics during times like this because I think they have the they have they get to the heart of it in a really effective
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way and Joshu Johnson who I've interviewed is an amazing young comic. And he said I I sent this to you. It was
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this is an argument about legality versus morality. >> Um, and if you the idea that Todd Blanch
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was sitting there saying well it was a riot. Well, he, you know, he was resisting. If we get into arguments with
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these people about what we can see with our eyes, it is we lose, right? Because they're going to find some reason that
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this young man deserved to get shot or the or Renee Good deserved it cuz she was mouthy, like cuz she wouldn't move
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her car. Um, they try to twist everything. And so, you're not going to win in a in a face-to-face argument with
00:18:18
these people. You're going to win by marching. I agree. And economic resistance is critical here. Um, the
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problem was with a lot of people with Tim Cook being at the White House. And by the way, Tim, I like you very much,
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but Steve Jobs would be ashamed of you. I know he would be ashamed of you. It's
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it's a grotesque way to end what has been a very successful uh career as a CEO. You could have walked away. You
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could have walked away. Shareholders are not everything. The Apple brand stands for more. So, a lot of people wanted to
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give up their iPhones. Like, I'm going to give up. Let me just tell you the founder of Google is dating a mega
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influencer and is quite right-wing now. So there's nowhere to go unfortunately.
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And that's the problem is we have been held captive by these men boys who are
00:19:02
now deciding they want to dabble in fascism or at least turn a blind eye to it. And so I I part of me is like what
00:19:09
do you do here? Right? What do you what >> what I'm suggesting is and again I've
00:19:16
struggled with this my whole life. the difference between being right and being effective and we're angry. And I get it.
00:19:21
Protesting is powerful. Uh promising them that there will be an accountability. And I've said this, I
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think there should be something equivalent to the Nermberg trials after this is all over.
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>> I agree. >> And to make it clear that once we're back in power, which we will be, this is
00:19:36
going to happen. And the statute of limitations on murder is >> zero. >> Never.
00:19:40
>> Yeah. >> However, it's the boring [ __ ] that moves the needle. And here's something really
00:19:43
boring that would stop this. If we could convince half of Americans who are planning to buy an iPhone in the next 60
00:19:49
days to not buy it, just put it off and we could get 10% of existing Chat GPT subscribers to cancel their
00:19:56
subscription, this ends. >> Mhm. >> These are the people that he cares
00:20:00
about, and this is about the market. Look at the only time he's blinked when
00:20:04
the Japanese bond market started taking our 10-year yields up and when tariffs took the markets down. This is how he
00:20:12
responds. It's not cinematic. It's not romantic. It's not going to be written
00:20:16
up in great history novels, but if you could figure out a way to basically kick a small number of companies related to
00:20:23
the tech economy that are account for 40% of the S&P right now and who are the
00:20:27
people he cares about, if if all of a sudden if you took all of your money out of any JP Morgan affiliated bank and
00:20:33
transferred it to a local regional bank, if you cancelled all of your streaming media platforms, if you cancelled OpenAI
00:20:42
and Anthropic and you said I am not upgrading my Apple phone and there was a real movement that registered and they
00:20:48
had to disclose it >> in their earnings calls. This [ __ ] would come to an end pronto.
00:20:53
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting I they have played along with this Trump stuff
00:20:57
for a very long time much farther than >> because you're right they're all about
00:21:00
sharehold they we can't shame them. You cannot shame them. Yeah. >> The ghost of Steve Jobs is not going to
00:21:05
shame them. The only thing these people care about >> the only thing these people care about
00:21:11
is whether or not their stock goes down. That's it. And if their stock goes down,
00:21:15
they're going to stop. They're not only going to stop showing up to Melania
00:21:17
documentaries and giving him inscribed hard disk drives. They're going to finally find their testicles and come
00:21:23
out and speak out against this guy and call him and say, "You need to you need
00:21:26
to call this [ __ ] off." And the SNP is going to go down and then everyone's
00:21:31
going to have their hair on fire. >> Well, one of the things I've noticed is
00:21:34
really interesting. I I this is the last time I'm talking about the the polling
00:21:37
is disastrous on this for Trump. His polling is disastrous. Why haven't Republicans found their like s like from
00:21:46
a numbers point of view, right? Like away from all of it, if you want to argue, whatever you want to do and to
00:21:52
shame yourself and your children, by the way. Um, by the way, there were several
00:21:57
children of some of these people that are like, "Call me. I know all about my
00:22:01
[ __ ] [ __ ] dad and I will talk to the press, by the way." Which I think is
00:22:05
delicious. Um, but what what the polling is so obvious here. What? Why? It's so
00:22:13
like in the direction that is not the way these Republicans want to go. >> But there's I mean, if you really want
00:22:20
to distill it down and you bring the cowardice here, there are 47 Democratic senators. If 20 individuals, 20
00:22:31
uh 20 Republican senators marched up to his office and said, "You either stop
00:22:36
this [ __ ] now or we vote yes on the impeachment that they will propose." They could do it behind the scenes. It
00:22:45
takes 20 of them, 20 of the 53. and they've decided that those 20 of 355 million Americans, the vast majority who
00:22:53
are really rattled by this, can't find the backbone to get together and march
00:22:58
up to the White House behind the scenes and say, "Stop this now. Stop it now."
00:23:03
And one of the most disappointing things about all of this is that clearly these
00:23:06
senators, quite frankly, feel they have public support for not doing anything. Mhm. Or they feel they don't. But
00:23:14
>> all you would need all you would need is 20 of them to go to the White House and
00:23:18
said if this isn't handled in 72 hours or there's not real movement or real um
00:23:24
withdrawal here and the Democrats bring up impeachment hearings, we're going to
00:23:30
be a yes. >> Yeah. No. >> And that we need 20 we need 20 people here. 20 to represent the 345 million
00:23:39
Americans and they're nowhere to be found. And the disappointing thing is they have done the calculus and have
00:23:44
decided they have enough support in their districts, the silent majority, that they don't feel they need to do it.
00:23:50
>> Yeah. I think one of the things the last thing I would say is we're playing on
00:23:53
their field. They want this to be about chaos, not about affordability, about um
00:23:58
the worst life, about their incredible um uh corruption and money grab, including the tech CEOs. They want it to
00:24:07
be about a poor man getting shot on the streets. Um and I would last like to call out Steven Miller, who is in the
00:24:14
center of this. We always focus on Trump as we often focus on the top people, but
00:24:19
Steven Miller uh like a man named Benettson, he was the one who created the internment camps Japanese Hinrich
00:24:26
Himmler in the in the in the Nazi regime. This is what he is. And he he of course Trump gets the most of the blame
00:24:35
being the top at the top. But people like Steven Miller uh will go down in history as evil um has blood on his
00:24:43
hands um and should be jailed at the very end of this. And you're absolutely
00:24:47
right. I do want to make one more point and I think Saturday Night Live did this
00:24:51
really well. Um, these are white people getting killed and this is something the
00:24:55
uh African-American peace talked about the the brutality they get in the things and I thought if you want to look at
00:25:00
anything there was a terrific um skit on it about that uh which I thought was quite effective. Let's not forget to
00:25:08
note that. Um in any case before we go Alex Py's parents um said in a statement
00:25:14
it was the most dignified thing I've ever I wouldn't know what to do if this
00:25:17
had happened to my any of my children. Please get the truth out about our son. He was a good man. And with that in
00:25:22
mind, I want to play a a clip of uh Alex in his role as an ICU nurse. He was uh serving veterans, honoring a deceased
00:25:30
veteran. Let's watch. >> Today, we remember that freedom is not free. We have to work at it, nurture it,
00:25:36
protect it, and even sacrifice for it. May we never forget and always remember our brothers and sisters who have served
00:25:44
so that we may enjoy the gift of freedom. So in this moment we remember and give thanks for their dedication and
00:25:50
selfless service to our nation in the cause of our freedom. In this solemn hour we render our honor and our
00:25:56
gratitude. Yeah, I think that just about says it. Freedom is not free. Yeah, I hope I you're right. This like
00:26:19
this is just so rattling on so so many levels, but um Heather Cox Richardson has also said
00:26:25
we face darker times and I'd be shocked if at some point there isn't a future
00:26:29
president that gives um Alex the same type of dignified sendoff that he gave that veteran. I do think this is a
00:26:36
turning point. >> Um incredibly upsetting. And this isn't about I can already see what's going to
00:26:42
happen. and they're going to come out and acknowledge a tiny bit. They'll say,
00:26:46
"Yes, we've had to scale up ICE because of because of the massive wave invasion
00:26:52
and they do need more training." And that's like saying that the guards at
00:26:56
DACA needed more training. >> Yeah. >> This is a a systemic structural
00:27:00
depravity from from straight from the president and his sick of fans who are unqualified and also seem to wade in
00:27:07
this type of cruel and strange behavior. And to the citizens of Minnesota, we thank you. Um, you have done, keep doing
00:27:15
it and we thank you. Um, you are fighting the fight that's critical, including uh the sacrifices you make.
00:27:22
Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. Uh,
00:27:27
we'll be back with a full show on Tuesday. And Scott, thank you very much. >> Thank you, Cara.