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let's Jump Right In Don Lemon and Elon Musk have consciously uncoupled can I introduce myself like I'm a co-host and I'm Don Lemon welcome to Pivot there you
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go nice DMO we decided to sex up this podcast yes after recording a 90-minute interview last week for lemon's upcoming show musk texted lemon's rep contract
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terminated uh cancelled contract cancelled hi hi Kira hi prop G hello Don what's going on listen we need to stop we want to find out what happened and I know you talked a little bit on CNN last
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night about it and welcome back to CNN by the way that was such a weird experience why why so cuz you were in the building well I mean it was it was I
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went back to the place where you know I no longer work almost a year not quite you know it was April I was in the same
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Studio Aon and I always shared a studio they just you know switch the desk around right that studio with the stairs
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and so they would just switch back around and switch the the desk around and all of my entire camera crew and
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producers were there it was just a it was just very was it a happy homecoming they like you I know that everyone
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everyone showed up people came out of the control room they came in from it was they were very happy to see me oh
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very nice and then I was I was happy to see them but I had to um I had to leave like I just because it was too emotional
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yes I was going to start crying oh you could cry that would be okay but listen listen we need to know what happened but
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first I want there's already cons iracy theories so I'm going to read this comment on from a threads user SB Kurt
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y'all are so gullible this is manufactured remember when Hostess CupCakes was going bankrupt and out of
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business and there was a run on Ho Hos well these two Ho Hos are playing y'all just so you know people think now it's a plot between you and Elon to boost uh watching of this just so you know that's
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not it car you know that's I know it I'm just laughing I mean like you know it because we talked about this you know
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soon after I left CNN I said what am I going to do I'm going to take the summer off give me some ideas to ponder you gave me some ideas y um and then I came
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back to you with an idea of of told you that X was reaching out to me I think it was Twitter then right yeah I don't know
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and you said no don't do don't I was like this is the plot of get out do not do it do not do it um but we also chatted about this partnership with X at my event for the book which you kindly
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moderated just a few weeks ago at the 92nd Street why I did voice my concerns then and I said get the money up front
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at some point so go through what happened um both Scott and I you know everybody was not surprised I would say right that that that this occurred um
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but but I think people it's still got a lot of attention so talk us through what happened and what the deal was you mean
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how this deal came about yeah yeah yeah okay so as you know um Elon Musk very publicly tweeted saying inviting me to the plat platform and then Tucker eventually started a show and he said
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this is what everyone should be doing Don Lemon should be doing this um I was and then I got a phone call from someone
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I told you I don't know if you want to mention the name but you said that they were acting on behalf obviously they were acting on behalf of Elon someone
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who is in a very high-profile position who you know bold name said you should do this this is great for you blah blah
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blah blah blah and so that was very early on and I said No and then lenda Yaro was signed on as CEO and she knows a lot of people that you and I know very
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respected people she was at NBC y she was at NBC and uh they said wait till Linda you know gets on board and we did
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and then they reached out again they kept reaching out and they kept pursuing me and I said yeah and they you know
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they kept sweetening the deal and I said of course and so we started working on I said I will only do this if I can be
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myself on your platform the only reason I'm coming to your platform is because I think um Twitter I think it was Twitter
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at the time or maybe it was changing into X whatever it's interchangeable I think it's the biggest platform for um
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for news be besides being on a network and for people who are speaking out and who are commenting on news when people
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want to know about news if there's a breaking story the first thing they do is they pick up their phone and they go to Twitter or they go to x and they want
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to see what's trending or what what have you and I said I want to be myself and I'm I'm going to have to criticize the
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person who owns this platform and they said that's completely fine that's what we we want we want you to be you and uh
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we're all about Free Speech elon's a free speech absolutist he would text me uh we you know would text each other and we would talk about these things he said I want you on the platform this is what
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you should be doing and everyone said you're going to be free to to be yourself and that's how it came about
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right and so you signed a deal now can you give specifics they gave you a lot of money to be not exclusive I think
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people are confused by this you can be anywhere right you can put your stuff your new show on YouTube or Instagram or
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whever you feel like correct yeah yeah I'm not going to look I'm not going to go into specifics about the money and that's not what you're asking me but was
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there a financial part of it absolutely was it um you know enticing absolutely what did they get for it like to to have extra 10 minutes but here's what here's yeah so here's the thing everyone thinks
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it was an X show it was not an X show it was my show produced by my uh production
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company which is called LMN or lemon media Network produced by my company they had no editor control over it at
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first we wanted to do 5 days a week then I said you know everyone in this business said that's too much do three days a week you even told me that like
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don't don't get crazy and so we decided to do three days a week and uh three shows a week what ex wanted was some
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exclusive material so I think I had to give them like 10 videos uh or something like that per week and I think they had to be like 10 minutes long or what have you that was extra things on top of the
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episodes the my episodes were already going to air everywhere right they're going to be on YouTube they're going to
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be on iHeart they can wherever you get uh streaming or podcasts and so they just wanted some extra material on top
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of that and that material had to be exclusive to them for 24 hours and then it went everywhere right that's all they got yeah and so I said if you're going to pay me this money and I'm going to be
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posting on your platform if I didn't get this for free it's a no-brainer you're giving me money to post on X was a no brainer to me because
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people promote their material and their content on X anyways even people who don't like it they're still on X and I
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asked a lot of people you don't like X why are you still on it they said because there's nothing else better so
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that was a deal so they were they selling your advertising were they selling my advert yes they were selling advertising around me around you um and
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I think I think on X and I think what they wanted was someone who was not an extremist someone who wasn't a right-wing cons iracy theorists that they could sell to the to regular and
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the last question we have Don Lemon yeah last question on that and then Scott please jump in is um and they took you to CES and showed you off Linda likes to
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do that had a dinner and showed you off to advertisers correct yes and um you know this yeah yeah I want to say something but I don't know if I should say it all
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right but nonetheless should yes please I should yeah go ahead yeah you should you think I should say it you want me to say why not they said to my
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Representatives if I didn't get on a plane and go to CES the deal was off okay so they needed your face they
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needed me there right and then they you know trotted me out to their clients and their potential advertisers and what
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have you look Don Lemon and I was always the either the the the Marquee person right the top of the thing or the person that they're like and finally Don Lemon yeah you know what I mean we've been at
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those dinners all right SC Scott yeah Don good to see you so I I don't want to speak specifically
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to working with Elon Musk but what's it like to work with a malignant narcissist who is abusing a disassociate of
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narcotic just generally speaking generally speaking well I've never worked with you
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Scott so I don't know boom don bringing the fire but listen your question is moot I think because I never really worked with him I didn't I didn't have that much contact
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with Elon Musk the contact I had with him is he called called me I think he was in Paris we had a long conversation
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for about 45 minutes in the summer after I spoke to him I spoke with Cara and I said I don't want to do this what have
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you it was very he was very nice on the phone I think he was his mom was sitting there next to him and we were talking
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about it he's very kind very friendly I have nothing against Elon Musk you know as a matter of fact during the interview
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I felt some empathy for him because I was just like this is someone who is a brilliant man in some aspects but he's
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emotionally immature mhm and you you I could pick that up in the interview and and and a bit insecure but I have
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nothing against Elon Musk I've never really worked with him uh I have never met him in person had never met him in
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person until I did that interview we shared some texts you know I'm going to call you or when are you free and then
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um around dealbook I texted him and I I think I said something like wow I can't you know surprising you said that but here's what I like that you said and he said free speech is for when people you
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don't like say things you don't like and I said you know what I agree with you on that that's probably one of the only things that we agree on I may not agree
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with you but I'm going to fight like hell for your right to be to say that's where he kind of went off the rails a little bit I L let's let's double click
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on that because I just tell people who don't know he kind of had a meltdown on stage with Andre Ross sorin okay so Mr
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Mr Free Speech it's important consistently says it's important that people say what they want to say even people don't like it what did you say
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that he didn't that he then fired you unceremoniously for you'll have to ask him Scott you were in the room Don what
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what what do you think upset him enough to like literally my understanding is within 24 hours and you what's your
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sense right when presented with facts about things that he um tweets about and I'll still call it you know tweeting uh
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about his posts he didn't like that um when I asked him about his you know his alleged drug use that has been reported in the Wall Street Journal very cred organizations when I asked him about his
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ketamine use that he he himself had tweeted about he himself put out there he bristled at that and I said I would
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not I wouldn't talk about these things Elon I wouldn't talk about your ketamine use if you had not publicly said that
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how would I even know about it and he actually had a very good answer he said the reason I talked about it is because I thought it would help people yeah and
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if you're on ssris maybe you should should consider taking ketamine and I think he's absolutely right I myself
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have suffered from depression he talked about depression and you know use of ketamine I and I said I have suffered
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from depression and I agree with you you should try different things I used to do talk therapy and my um doctor actually
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tried drug therapy on me I've done stories about people with PTSD who have you know done ketamine and other drugs
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and it has actually helped him so we agreed on that but that went over his head I don't think he even heard it because I just don't think that he liked
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sitting there taking questions from me someone that he has a history with um and just being held accountable and just being held to facts when I talked about Dei and about you know the
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what he tweeted about remember the Alaskan Airlines pilot who when the door blew off and the plan and she landed the
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plane successfully he you know somehow that it was a Dei thing and I said but this is a woman who landed a plane
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successfully that doesn't mean that means that she is actually qualified to do a job so I don't understand why
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you're tweeting the things that you're tweeting there's no evidence of what you're putting out there and he said
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well it would just be awful if we're lowering the standards uh on air safety and it would be awful if we're lower the standards for medical school because of
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Dei and I said yes that would be awful but there is no actual evidence that it is happening so why are you doing it it
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is hypothetical he he said all I'm saying is that it would be terrible and we shouldn't do it he didn't like push
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back he he didn't like push back but I I'm I am raising my voice now MH um louder than I did in that interview because I did not want that to happen so I was very calm and I asked him if you
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it seemed like the clips they question questions with follow-ups and that's it right so he he called your approach saying basically just CNN but on social media and it's really Jeff just Jeff
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sucker talking through Dawn would who you worked with Jeff Zucker at CNN what how did you react to this it's
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stupid I mean that was read to me secondhand and um I think he tweeted about it um or at least that was in the his response to the Press um after this
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happened I mean I think it's silly I think it's I think he thinks by putting Jeff's name that it's somehow going to
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get more uh attention and he's being a provocator because people may look at Jeff as a person well not may may look
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at Jeff they look obviously know he ran CNN and so that is sort of you know that adds to the you know he's a liberal sort
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of bro podcast World um where people who you know don't like the mainstream media
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but they watch Fox News all the time which is part of the main media and let let me just say this as you know and I'm
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not ashamed of this Jeff the Jeff's only connection to this is that everyone to Studios is producing my show it's wholly
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owned by redb Bird yeah I was approached by Ian who was you know formerly worked for time Inc for ever wonder Studios
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it's a coincidence but I'm proud to work with ever wonder Studios and I'm proud to work with Jeff Zucker and I think Jeff Zucker is one of the most talented
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media Executives to ever live and so to have him as a personal friend and as a mentor for and someone who counsels me occasionally I am not ashamed of that at all I'm actually very proud of that I'm
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lucky to have that in my life let me ask when you left the interview you know when I do interviews I you know I sort of know how they feel essentially you
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have did you have any idea how he felt I did I did and I kept texting you I was like oh you're GNA get fired tomorrow no
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matter what you did I did um but I said to you you know we talked about I said this wasn't we compared someone in the
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business this wasn't a situation where I was going to get Guff for someone saying that I was bought and for because it was
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actually I said I think I said it was um yeah said it wasn't comfy at times I think is what I texted you and it wasn't it was tense um in the beginning it was you know he was a bit cold and then he
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warmed up a little bit so fast forward you did it and then you heard this thing and what was did you hear from Linda
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ever did she write you who has been like slavishly trying to land your deal we spent the next afternoon uh in Austin and I was trying to remember I was trying to hook up with you just to say
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hi or to do something but I had to leave and so uh I land at New York airport on
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Saturday evening very rainy Saturday evening and uh my agent calls and says hey I need you to step out where are you
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I got to talk to you and I said I can't and he goes no I need you to I said I can't I'm taxiing and he goes where are you taxiing in Austin are you still
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there and I said no I'm I just landed in New York and I said you know he said well I um I just got a text from uh on and I said okay what do he say and he said uh he's very upset he read me the
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text it was kind of um I don't know if I would say vulgar um yes I I've gotten those text you would say bulgar probably and um it was very insulting and then he said uh deal canell her
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contract canceled MH and so I was sitting next to my executive producer Jonathan Wald and I said uh um I'm on
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with with Jay and uh he said that Elon said the contract was cancell we looked at it she was like what why I don't know
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um and then I don't know in that moment I was just like good good I'm tired of I I
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was I went into this with my eyes open but I was so tired of the push back that I was getting from people who really love me from um people who really supported me and although I thought I
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was doing the right thing I knew I was doing the right thing because I wanted my work to be presented and Amplified to
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the big biggest to the largest number of people who could receive it and I do believe as you know in free speech and I do believe that we should have better discourse in this country with people we don't agree with my mom and I have
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disagreements all the time right I still go to visit her for Thanksgiving or Christmas or whatever she's coming to my
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wedding or whatever I mean but and and but we still love each other we don't do that in
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this canel she doesn't say sunship she doesn't say that sunship canceled um Scott let me let me have Scott ask a question Scott go ahead I mean my sense is Don and obviously this you're
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probably still processing this but if you were going to try and launch a show the biggest get would be to get Elon
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Musk to do your initial show the even bigger get is to get him and then have him freak out and fire you I mean isn't
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this isn't this at a Central casting for how to launch a show isn't this a great thing cuz my I mean a couple things my
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understanding is the way you've depicted it is you have a show and Twitter was just going to be one of many distribution Outlets one that does that
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mean the show is going to air and two I just can't imagine this playing out any better for Don Lemon your
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thoughts Yeah it's you're right so the moment I got the call that's what I said I was like well if he is going to cancel this contract because at first I thought well he's just being petulant and you know he'll cooler heads will prevail and
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whatever and I said but if he does do it before the show airs mhm because as you
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said Scott that would be the best thing to happen to me do it before the show airs and tweet about it if you're gonna
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do it right and so I could not have asked for a bigger promotion for the show than this um but you know I think
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that in the long term um having X on board and if I could have done some work with them I think it would have been helpful in the long termo promotional the promotion because you know they use
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the algorithm yeah and I told you I was their analytics basically I was going to use them as a newsroom right as as my
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news room as a place I don't have no they were going to tout you to High Heavens yeah let me just ask a cross
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question though do you get paid out um that is something that you'll have to ask my Representatives I we're still in
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the middle of that I have an agreement with them and I expect them to abide by that agreement and if they don't they're
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in breach can I you you weren't terminated for cause so why wouldn't you be paid out well let me CU apparently he
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didn't sign this contract is that correct even though he said contract canel and therefore is acknowledging
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there's a contract correct to again to my understanding you again I would ra I would prefer my my representatives to
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discuss this that there was an agreement that we have an agreement um and again uh they said if I did not go to CES that the deal was off I say they
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announced it to the world they did do a press release they trotted me out to they I mean they they touted it quite a
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bit that you were going to be there but you didn't sign is that correct just so cuz there's been lots of different reporting I I don't know what the
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represent as far I did not but I don't know what yes okay all right i' I've been in those contracts so um so in any
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case have you spoken to Linda yako at all did you hear from her at all I heard from Linda the next morning um on Sunday
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morning I did she know what had happened that's a very good question did the CEO know no yeah the the CEO got a text from Elon she had never she had not
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but when I spoke to her she had not spoken to him she called me to say you know to try to smooth it over and to
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find out what happened and I just want to know what was going on because you know I haven't even spoken to him and
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I'm waiting to get in touch with him and what have you but um I think it took a while for her to get in touch with him
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whatever he fired the wrong person Don anyways sorry go ahead let me tell you look if there's if was ever any question about who is running X yeah there isn't one now yeah
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it's Elon Musk yeah yeah yeah that's who's running X did she apologize or just she never she makes so many excuses
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for him I don't remember if she apologized but she was very apologetic if that makes sense right right sort of
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very contrite and um saying you know I want to smooth this over um you know I think that you're great for the platform we love having you on the platform you've been a team player blah blah blah
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blah and uh I think that I'm trying I want to get Elon to understand and quite frankly I
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said I think that he was just uncomfortable in the moment MH and what will actually turn out in the interview MH he's going to look better than he thought right because this wasn't a
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gotcha interview this was just a Q&A I was just having a conversation with him questions and answers and I think just
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you know again just because he was so uncomfortable for for some reason for my mere presence in questions I just think
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that was the discomfort when you see the interview there are nuggets in there he does make news in there I don't attack
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him and it's there are no gotcha questions I think people are going to walk away from inter say this happens in
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a lot of these interviews they're going to say what did he fire well he didn't fire me because I I didn't work for him but what why did he cancel the contract
00:21:51
right I think people are going to I think even his own people will wonder what the hell they will say nothing to
00:21:58
him they will say nothing to him so if he called you and said oh God I really flew off the handle would you come back
00:22:03
what would you say to him I would say um pay me what you owe me and it was great
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the I I really enjoyed this learning experience and the best of luck to you and everyone at your organization what's
00:22:17
your advice for the next person who wants to do business with them because you know he he didn't pay out the the Twitter Executives he didn't he hasn't
00:22:23
paid out regular employees I've heard from dozens of them um they're in sever hell with this guy um doesn't pay rent I mean it goes he's like Trump times six
00:22:35
in this regard paying bills um what advice would you have for the next person who wants to do one of because
00:22:41
this is one of Linda yak's big thing is we're going to make this immediate now she she was touting video yesterday when
00:22:47
she knew full well what was going on here well if you read the New York Times piece advertisers were still trying to
00:22:54
advertise around my show right they were using my show U what would I what would I do and by the way I'll answer your
00:23:00
question um there were people who were asking me a talent in this business a number of people oh my God your deal with X sounds very interesting what do I do how do I
00:23:13
do this um you know this is the future I think what you're doing is really smart right and so I told them to call my
00:23:21
agent call Orin Rosen bound right who is who's a digital guru at he's a podcast he's him and have him work that out and there were a number of people who reached out to me and a number of people who reached out to my Representatives
00:23:34
because of that and it and if those people want to go to x I'm sure they would but I was in a position to
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actually bring normal journalists to them I shouldn't say normal more Centrist journalist to them and not you
00:23:45
know right mostly right-wing um people or I shouldn't say just journalists talent and also advertisers yeah there
00:23:54
were advertisers who said oh my God I'm so excited about what you're doing mhm I'm so excited about this new project we
00:24:01
want to support you but x h so in the end with the advertisers they weren't really helping right and as you told me
00:24:08
you know do this on your own invest and bet on yourself advertisers were more excited about working with me than they were about working with X and there were some who were coming to the platform I
00:24:20
don't know if they'll still do it they may still do it because of me and we'll see how that plays out now but I would
00:24:27
say to them go go into it with your eyes open I cannot tell you what to do um you
00:24:32
told me not to do it I did it and I found out and I wouldn't even say the hard way I actually enjoyed the
00:24:37
experience no all right okay but just so you know you're not going to get paid I told you get paid up front didn't I
00:24:43
you're not getting no he'll get paid just after a judge decides he's getting paid yeah that's true that could be yeah
00:24:48
yeah yeah but I the better way also listen I but I think there there was an I think there was an even sort of
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tradeoff well I shouldn't say that I don't I don't know if I don't know that to be true but you know alluding to
00:25:02
what Scott said the promotion from this has been you know I don't really know how you put a dollar amount on that but
00:25:09
you know if if Elon had just not said anything and let the interview run it we wouldn't even it would be over you know
00:25:15
two days after yeah you got musked you got musked you got musked Scott last question well just an observation than a question I always like to try and glean a learning from our guests for younger
00:25:27
people and that is a lot of times when you get laid off or fired it has nothing to do
00:25:34
with you and to forgive yourself and just nothing's ever as good or as bad as it seems and Don you seem I can just
00:25:41
hear in your voice you're fine I get the sense you're sleeping just fine yeah the the the question I have is so you're a c
00:25:49
you're you were and still are a kid of a cable news star cable news is in Decline
00:25:55
the audience is shrinking there's more Talent than there is audience on cable news right now and you've left and
00:26:01
you're trying to shape kind of a new strategy different distribution channels maybe a new positioning for your show
00:26:08
can you sort of walk us through and it's probably a work in progress can you walk us through your strategy for how you're going to try and maintain relevance
00:26:15
maintain you know an income stream and sort of adapt to this new world what's your what's your thinking and your
00:26:21
strategy here around the show and how you kind of move forward well number one I'm in a position where I can uh at
00:26:29
least for a couple of years I can um try things right I can experiment and I intend to do that do I think that my relevance or my income or whatever it is
00:26:41
is it that it's going to be the same as when it was on CNN no I mean I'm not working for CNN and if I went to a
00:26:47
different network my relevance and my income would be different and so I don't expect that I think people start you know they start media companies or they start streaming they think they're going to you know be the the same as they were
00:26:59
on on broadcast Media or cable media no I'm not that naive I I'm a 58y old man and I know and I'm very realistic about about life do I think I have you know a
00:27:11
a another um chapter absolutely absolutely and I look I think I'm still relevant I think I'm more relevant than people who are on cable news right now um just
00:27:23
because I am open and willing to try new things and I am not afraid afid of anything I'm not afraid of Elon Musk I wasn't afraid of anyone that I've ever worked with any interview subject the
00:27:34
former president of the United States I'm not and so I believe with the you have to have the right attitude about
00:27:40
life if you have the positive attitude about life you try things you um you don't let perfect be the enemy of the
00:27:47
good then you will go on and be successful what I out of this what I said you know people wondered like why
00:27:54
isn't Don announced anything why isn't he um you know um an anounced a job why hasn't he found a job none of that was
00:28:00
true people don't understand what what contracts mean in this business you have non-competes you have um you know there
00:28:09
are time limits that you can do you have to wait a certain amount of time before you can even look for a job all of those
00:28:14
things um you there are certain things about direct competitors where you can't go on you know people who are your
00:28:19
direct competitors and so I want to continue to be able to afford the lifestyle that I can that I have and so those things aren't even in the realm of
00:28:30
possibility to me what I'm doing now it just happens to be where the future of this industry is going so um whatever I'm going to do what I'm
00:28:43
going to do next is lean into that to the digital part of this to the small screen part of this and I Scott you talk
00:28:48
about that as well so um what I'm going to do is take whatever I can invest in my business I'm going to be lean and mean and I'm going to I'm I I'm going to
00:29:00
spend the money up top to get it running to look the best that it can and once I
00:29:05
figure out how to do this thing then I'm going to stream to to slim it down even
00:29:12
more so that I am running this entire business not doing everything for myself but that I have the right a few of the right people around me and do it um the way that it should be done let me tell
00:29:24
you what I've learned when you're watching and you're getting your news on a small screen and even sometimes on a big screen nobody cares really about the
00:29:30
giant Studio around you that costs $510 million and the all of those swoosh and whatever they just want the information
00:29:37
and um they don't care if you have 50 producers or 10 writers they want what they want from you and that is quality and that is information and they want someone who's going to be authentic and
00:29:51
so that's where this is going this isn't the way of the the I look at this it's akin to the studio system from the 20s
00:29:58
30s 40s 50s and maybe even the 60s in Hollywood those days are gone and so people have to become their own Brands you have to become your own studio and your own entrepreneur the best advice
00:30:09
that I got was from Cara swisser and it clicked in my head in that moment I was I remember I was standing in my kitchen in Sag Harbor you said you're no longer a a talent you're an entrepreneur uhhuh
00:30:24
and the minute you said that I was like [ __ ] yeah she's right I'm an Entre R preneur I need to learn how to be a
00:30:30
businessman I had never had to do that because everyone was always taking care of me they cuddle you Don now it's 2.0
00:30:36
lean and mean I know I know wait one just real quick and so and so no I was never mean but so now I'm an entrepreneur and I have to learn how to be an entrepreneur and with that I I you
00:30:47
know I tell people I don't know this part of the business help me out yeah okay help me understand this I want to
00:30:52
sign every check I want to see every invoice I like give it to me I want to I want to learn how to do it and so that's
00:30:59
where I am now and guess what it's hard but I love it and I'm learning and you know what I am going to be successful
00:31:05
there you go