GPT-4o launches, Glue demo, Ohalo breakthrough, Druck's Argentina bet, did Google kill Perplexity?

all right everybody welcome to your favorite podcast in the world's number one podcast the all-in podcast it's episode 1,790 oh wait that's just how it feels welcome to episode 179 with me today of course is your Sultan of science I don't know if that's a movie background or it's just his favorite vegetables what's going on there what's the crop that's AI generated it's AI generated crop okay great I'm trying AI backgrounds I'm going to try it out for a while with different props your fans are going to be crushed that you're not doing deep movie polls with us of course man about town DC new products being launched David

saaks the Rainman yeah how you doing buddy good good yeah good week lots going on yeah yeah definitely a good week shth poopaa chairman dictator he puts the chairman in dictator I would like to take this opportunity to wish my child a happy birthday I absolutely love you well now the rest of us look like yeah great I've never done that before sax in your desk in your desk is a piece of paper with your children's names and their birthdays you want to pull it out I got three birthdays a year and I've never done one let your winners [Music] ride and instead we open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy

love [Music] you no no no but I'm saying it rarely lands on the same day today is the day today is the day today the day today is the day con congratulations child oh congratulations yeah how old Jam no gender name or any other specifications folks we can't we can't tip anybody off no pronouns no pronouns uh yes Abol so how are they them experiencing their birthday this child has experienced a wonderful and this child is an incredible person for whom I have tremendous admiration and love and compassion and hope for the future all right and did you order them some chicken fingers I cannot comment on who this

person is chicken fingers are you talking of course about Phil helmuth your child Phil helm can we please talk about last weekend's festivities in what a disaster he is oh my God guys just so you guys know so we missed you last weekend we missed so much fun to we miss you on Saturday night Saturday night was really fun I had such a lovely time coming home to be totally honest with you we had a cabana set up on Saturday played blackjack I miss you guys too I had a fomo saw the videos it was so fun well you don't have to have too much fomo because Phil sent the entire group chat to pokernews.com they did an article twice the flop. org

poker Dash update he leaked every single person who's there and the TW he's like look here's me and Elon Elon came by for my dinner no it was worse than that no it's worse than that he said I got to hang out with our guy Elon for 10 minutes and 14 seconds wait what he di he intercepted him at the valet wait what how many minutes God 10 minutes and 14 seconds he had the exact time down to the second oh my God I want to wish helmouth a happy birthday CU I did miss his 60th party yeah it's coming up bir good news is it wasn't actually his birthday it was Bill Gurley so he just hijacked Bill gurley's birthday I also

got to enjoy for my first time ever uh the experience of bakarat which I've decided is the most d dgen game on earth it's literally the most you just flip a coins coins it's flipping coins well C you you make betting decisions all you do in bakarat is you say bank or player and then you freak yourself out about how you flip the cards and the smartest people I know on Earth are all sitting around this table at 2 3 in the morning saying turn this corner this way no no no no no turn it this way turn it this way there's two dots and they're debating the right way to flip a people on Earth no the Bak sweat is the most incredible performative act in the casino Weir yeah you're right

everyone's got their own little technique about how they bend the cards the cards are all destroyed by the end of the deck they don't they get I go like this and I try to see curling your mustache like an evil vill and then you call out oh my God no spotter if you see a no spotter or two across so great and then you get to decide whether the bank turns over their cards and it what when they turn over then you lose a small house and then you're like oh let's try again yeah you're convincing yourself that you have all this control and ways to change the outcome literally flipping a carard well it's that's all it is high card it's even worse than that you're basically

sitting down at the casino's table and then they tell you whether You've Won or lost and in order to convince yourself that that's not what's going on you have to play with the card but really they just tell you you either win or lose and I'm watching the smartest guys we know staring at the window at the little machine that tells you whether bank or player one and they're studying it rubbing their chin doing an analysis it's been black H is like I'm calling it now Bank bank player player player and all the guys like let's do it then everyone so helth asked us to play in the high stakes poker game on poker go so it was me helmuth Stanley Sammy house and then Jen Tilly and Nick airball and

Robel so most of the guys from the hus G Plus gen Tilly and Nick airball Jennifer til is amazing what a great human listen to this well listen to this hand literally the second hand of the actual poker game GTI is in the big blind no sorry she's under the gun she raises Howen buold three bets it comes all the way around to me on the button I look and I have pocket kings oh I ship the whole cheeseburger comes back to Tilly she ships house ships listen to these hands Gentilly has Aces Jeff housenbold has Kings I have Kings oh my God never seen a cooler hand like this in my life and the second in the second hand of the

game anyways wow don't worry guys I came back and I won G tripl up she triples up and then into lockdown mode the first time I ever play with her then I stacked her right I anyways well I don't want to reveal the game but it was it was wonderful it was fun I show up at a mutual friend of ours game and there's a like beautiful Porsche or something in the driveways a really notable car and the I I noticed on the license plate it says Deen but it's spelled with a J and I'm like oh degenerate what a great license plate I wonder who that is I go it's Jennifer she is so cool she's very Charming cool very Charming great

actress movie she was in that's what it was yeah you don't have to ask me twice yeah exactly tour what a great gangster film yeah with uh Gina gersin I mean Gina gchen that's who that film that film oh my god well let's not get canceled here okay yeah um it is quite a film all right speaking of uh action big week the AI industrial complex is dominating our docket here apologies to Biden Ukraine and Nikki Hy but we got to go AI right now open AI launch chat GPT 40 4.0 Monday three days after Sam wise came on Allin as a programming note and we'll go to freeberg about this we

probably made a bit of a strategical or tactical error in not postponing his app appearance In fairness uh freeberg Samwise did tell us originally he was coming on to talk about those things but then it got pushed back anything you want to add to that as a programming note because people are wondering what happened I've been talking with Sam for a while a year about coming on the show and every time I see him I'm we're like hey you should come on the show he's like I want to come on the show okay let's find a date we never got a date that worked I saw him in March and he said hey I want to come on the show I said okay well come on let me know when

works and a couple weeks later he's like what about this date in May and I'm like yeah that's that's fine we can make that work he's like well I've got a big announcement we're going to be doing and I was like Perfect come on the show that that that sounds great and then the um the night before he asked me he told me he texted me he's like hey we're actually not gonna have this announcement happen tomorrow it's going to be delayed he didn't tell me how long and I'm like well is it CH is it GPT 5 he's like no it's not gp5 and I was like okay well you know come on the show anyway because he didn't tell me when he's doing the announcement

or when it's being pushed to so it didn't seem like that big a deal and I thought we were just going to be able to have a good chat anyway so it's really unfortunate I think the fact that the announcement happened two days after and he had to stay quiet about it during our interview but um that's the story I think in the future if someone says they've got a big announcement to do we should probably push them uh if they if they have to something don't be but I don't think we're going to be doing a lot of these interviews anyway I think people clearly don't love them and it's better for us to just kind of out and talk I think I think if we had just gotten Sam on the day after the launch

of GT4 Omni as opposed to what was it three days before yeah he could have talked much more freely about it and it would have been interesting yeah it was supposed to happen same day so it's unfortunate this all worked out this way the other little trick is to say you can tell us under embargo but my understanding is they were still doing the videos o over the weekend so I think those videos and stuff they were still figuring them out and so yeah's learned in terms of the interviews on the show just a recap for people we've done a dozen half of them have been presidential candidates sometimes they break out sometimes they don't we follow our interest and our passion here on the

Pod it's got to be interesting for us too so if we think this person's going to be interesting we do it and yeah we understand you miss a news subject but yeah it is what it is and to your point a lot of the people that come on and increasingly a lot of people ask to come on because they know we're not journalists and so for all of those folks that expect us to be journalists that's not what we are we're for entrepreneurs we're four business people we're four friends we're four technologists we're four curious people we're four poker players but we're not four journalists and so we're going to ask whatever we feel like asking sometimes those things will touch

a cord because it's what you wanted to have asked and sometimes we won't go to a place whether we didn't have time to or whether we forgot or whether we chose not to and I think it's important to have that disclaimer like we have day jobs and this is what we do to Coal us a bunch of information in the way that we're thinking about the world so we are not journalists so please don't have that I think what that means is that if the guest doesn't want to talk about something we're not going to start peppering him with gotcha questions and things like that I appeared at a conference a couple of days ago uh to promote glue which we'll get to and the first half of the

conversation was like a normal conversation about what we were launching and then the second half was basically the reporter peppering me with fastball questions which is fine I knew what I was signing up for it's a totally different style it's a totally different style than coming on the Pod just having a normal conversation but it's not really our job to make somebody open up if they don't want to talk what was the spiciest question sax that what was the fast ball anything come close to your head she no I mean it's not worth really getting into you can watch it on yeah I

was just curious like look I I kind of like sometimes when reporters pitch me fast balls because yeah you can strike out or you can hit out of the park when they do that that's an important part here I I think you know as a former editor and chief journalist myself I sometimes like to ask I would say a challenging question in a respectful way I did that for example vake you know just clarifying his thoughts on trans and gay rights wasn't disrespectful was thoughtful would you consider it spicy or hardcore I don't think it was Hardcore he likes to talk about because no but that's because you asked it from a position of curiosity you weren't trying to catch the guy no see the

difference I'm actually interested in his opinion that's this is my point that's why it comes out differently and that's why I think people enjoy these conversations and sometimes we don't get to the other kind of answer because I'm not interested in trying to got you somebody that's working hard I always have the same conditions when I do interviews which is I don't clear questions and I don't let people edit it but you know everybody's got a different view on how to do interviews and feel differ if you like it you like it if you like Lex Freedman version or Tim Ferris version or you prefer you know fox or CNN go go watch those interviews there you can have a whole range of different

interviews and interview Styles available to you in the media landscape we are but one Sam Weiss mentioned on the Pod last week that the next big model might not be called GPT 5 so on Monday they launched GPT 4 o uh the O stands for Omni it's everything you love about tech it's faster it's cheaper it's better but uh from my perspective the the the real show was the massive amount of progress they made on the the uiux the O stands for Omni as in omnivore it takes in audio text images even your desktop and video from your camera to inform what it's doing you can consider it like 360 degree AI producer

Nick will show a couple of videos while I describe them here before we go to the besties for their reaction to the announcement first they made great progress in solving the CB problem we mentioned last week that's where like when you use Siri or any of these tools you say you know hey J GPT what's 2 plus two over and you have to wait and then if you talk over each other it breaks they now have that working much smoother they did an example of counting where they said speed up slow down they did a translator that worked really well I would like you to function as a translator I have a friend here who only speaks Italian and I only speak English

and uh every time you hear English I want you to translate it to Italian and if you hear Italian I want you to translate it back to English is that good perfecto Mike she wonders if whales could talk what would they tell us um they might ask uh how do we solve linear equations certainly yes great looks like works I think dingo stock took a hit during that most impressive to me at least and also I had Su MRA on my other podcast and we talked about it was their desktop and IOS app what this app does is fascinating it watches your desktop on your Macintosh or on your iPad or iPhone and it does things like adaptive learning

here's a clip of s KH from KH Academy and his son basically uh using a drawing app to do some arithmetic or or geometry and it does adaptive learning and basically makes a personal coach because the app is watching his son try to solve a problem I'm here with my son and I'd love you to tutor him on this math problem but don't give him the answer you can ask questions and nudge him in the right direction but I really want to make sure he understands it himself and he's here in the room so you can talk to him directly can you first identify which sides of the triangle are the opposite adjacent and hypotenuse relative to angle Alpha all right so I'm pretty sure this is the angle Alpha

right here right correct now looking at the triangle which side do you think is the hypotenuse um remember the hypoten I'm not totally sure I think I think it might be this one but I really am not sure this side AC you're close actually side AC is called the adjacent side to the angle Alpha the hypotenuse is the longest side of a right triangle and is directly opposite the right angle can you find which one is the hypotenuse oh okay I see so um I think the hypotenuse is this really long side from A to B would that be correct exactly well done it can also participate in Zoom calls explain charts

all that great stuff and so it's going to be your guide on the side it's it's going to be a present you know personality while you're using your apps it's really impressive I have to say so I guess let's start freeberg with your takeaways on all of these innovations that we saw I think it's become quite apparent that there's an evolution underway in model architecture we've and I think you may remember we talked about this briefly with Sam last week but we're moving away from these very big bulky models that are released every couple of months or quarters and cost a

lot of money to rebuild every time they get re-released towards uh a system of models so this multimodal system basically leverages several models at once that work together or that are linked together uh to respond to the inputs and to provide some generative output and that those individual models themselves can be continuously tuned and or continuously updated so rather than have you know hey there's this big new release that just happened this new model just got trained cost $10 million to train it it's been pushed these models can be upgraded um with tuning with upgrade features and then link together with other new smaller models that are perhaps specialized for

specific tasks like doing mathematics or rendering an image or rendering a movie and so I think what we're going to see is soon more of an obfuscation of the individual models and more of this general service type approach where the updates are happening in in in a more continuous fashion I think this is the first step of open AI taking that architectural approach with uh GPT 40 and what's behind the curtains we don't know we don't know how many models are there we don't know how frequently they're being changed whether they're being changed through actually upgrading the parameters or whether they're being

fine-tuned and so this seems to be pretty obvious if you look at this link one of the criticisms that initially came out when they released GPT 40 was that there was some performance degradation and Stanford actually runs this massive multitask language understanding assessment and they publish it I think daily or pretty frequently on how all the models perform and you can see the scorecard here that GPT 40 actually outperforms GPT 4 and so this goes counter to some of the narrative that in order to get some of the performance improvements and speed improvements they got in 40 that they actually made the model worse and it seems actually the

opposite is true that the model's gotten slightly better it still underperforms Cloud 3 Opus which uh you can see here ranks top of these charts but there's lots of different charts all the companies publish their own charts they all claim that they're better than everyone else but I like Stanford because it's independent sh any thoughts uh after seeing it and in combination with our interview do you think chat GPT is running away with the consumer experience or do you think this is like neck and neck with some of the other players not to tell Tales out of school but somebody that we all know in our group chat hosted something about the fact that the consumer growth had

stalled I don't know how they knew that that they maybe they got some data or maybe they're an investor you you guys know what I'm talking about and and they said that they're trying to reinvigorate growth into the consumer app into at open AI I mean any insights as to why it might be plateauing in your perspective I wrote this in my annual letter but there are these phases growth and when you look at like social networks as a perfect example frster was magical when it was first created right and then you had Myspace that just ran circles around them because frer didn't really invest the money and the quality

that it took to to create a Moe and then Myspace really wasn't able to compete so we were you know Facebook we were the eighth or ninth when we showed up on the scene and we ran circles around everybody I think what it means is that there are these phases of product development which exist in many markets this Market I think is going through the same thing and right now we're in the first what I would call primordial ooze phase which is everybody's kind of like running around like a chicken with their heads cut off there's all these core basic capabilities that are still so magical when you see them but we all know that

five and 10 years from now these things will be table sticks right and what freeberg just showed is a table of many companies and many trillions of market cap all effectively running to the same destination so I think where we are is probably within two years of where the basic building blocks are standardized and then I think the real businesses get built so I will maintain my perspective here which is the quote unquote Facebook of AI has yet to be created okay and here it is chat BT web visits as you can see have plateaued this data is similar web I would agree with you jamath it seems like the use cases and the lookie L who were just

trying this software because they heard about it they've gone away and then we have to find actual use cases Sachs I'm wondering but our friend Jason just to kind of complete the thought said something about the premium conversion right that's what he said I don't know how he knew that paid paid version to be clear paid versus free and then what Sam said on the podcast last week was it seems like whenever they come out with something new the old stuff becomes free in my talk with Sunny this week he mentioned that these new models are so much more efficient that you actually can throw the old model in the garbage garbage because it's so inefficient and these are now becoming about 90% cheaper

every year which means every two years these things are going be 99% cheaper and better y yep and it might open AI sacks on a strategic level is going to make all this free or close to free and maybe just charge for multiplayer version that seems to be where it's heading you don't have to log in to use 3.5 you don't have to log in to use uh Google Ser no you do have to log in still on Google services but I think these are going to just be free so on a product basis what are your thoughts and then maybe could talk about free to pay do you think everybody in the world is going to pay 20 30 40 bucks 500 a year 200 a year to have one of these or are

they just going to all be free well I think you're assuming there that the long-term business model of open AI is in you to see subscriptions and I think that's probably the least attractive business model they have available to them it's sort of the first one and the most obvious one because they put out chat GPT and then it's pretty easy just to roll out a premium version but in my experience BTC subscriptions it's just not a very attractive business model because consumers just aren't willing to pay a lot and they have high churn rates and there's no possibility of expansion really so I suspect they're going to move in more of a B2B Direction over

time because that's where the real money is and probably the way they do that is is by uh monetizing all the apps that are built on top of it and I think that in that sense GPT 40 is a really important innovation by the way the the O stands for Omni which I think stands for Omni Channel I think you may have said omnivore kind yes it's Omni yeah which means all the different media types current currently coming in right like there that's the difference it's not like you just give it an image or give it a video it's absorbing all those at the same time in par I believe that's right so there's three big Innovations

with this model right so one is Omni Channel which means text audio video and images second it's more conversational like it understands the tone of people talking it understands sort of sentiment in a way it didn't before and then the third thing which is really important is that it's just much faster more performant than the previous version gp4 turbo in the speed test they say it's twice as fast we've played with it at glue we can talk about that in a minute and it feels 10 times as fast it is much faster but it's the combination of all three of these things that really makes some magical experience is possible because when you increase the speed of processing you can now actually have

conversations with it in a much more natural way before it was the the models were just too slow so there'd be a long delay after every prompt yeah so now like you showed it can do things like you point the camera at a a Blackboard or something with math equations on it it and it can walk you through how to solve that problem or two people can be talking and it does real-time translation you know there's that old saying that every Star Trek technology eventually becomes true they've just basically invented the whole natural language real time yes Universal translator yeah it's so anyway so those are some interesting use cases but I just think they're going to be able to

unleash a whole lot of new applications and if they're metering the usage of the models and providing the best Dev tools I think there is a business model there this thing is moving so FAS they in like Leonardo DiCaprio mode every two years they throw the old model away okay let's uh keep thank you sax a b is this thing did you write that ahead of time or in the moment that good just just one one point on that is there are a whole bunch of of startups out there that were creating virtual customer support agents and they been spending the last couple of years working on trying to make those agents more conversational quicker more

responsive I think their product road maps just became obsolete now that's not to say there isn't more work for them to do in workflow in terms of integrating the AI with customer support tools and doing that last mile of customizing the model for the vertical specific problems of customer support but my guess is that hundreds of Millions dollars of R&D just went out the window and probably this is the best time to be creating a customer support agent company if you're doing it two years ago five years ago your work has just like been well that is the thing of this pace like you know you

used to have to throw away client server stuff or you know whatever you had a web based thing you you get an app out you throw away some of the old code but this is like every 18 months your work has been replaced if you're an app developer the key thing to understand is where does model Innovation end and your Innovation begin because if you get that wrong you'll end up doing a bunch of stuff that the model will just obsolete in a few mons think you're totally right I think that's such a really important observation that's why I think the incentive for these folks is going to be to push this stuff into the open source

because if you if you solve a problem that's operationally necessary for your business but it isn't the core part of your business what incentive do you have to really keep investing in this for the next 5 and 10 years to improve it you're much better off like Clara for example right we talked about the in The Amazing Improvement and savings that Clara had by improving customer support release it in the open source guys let the rest of the community take it over so that it's available to everybody else otherwise you're going to be stuck supporting it and then if and when you ever wanted to switch out a model you know GPT 40 for to 40 to Claude to llama it's going to

be near impossible and it's going to be costly so I I also think SX the incentive to just push towards open source in this market if you will is so much more meaningful than any other Market yeah I mean listen you you were there when I I think you were there at Facebook when they did the open compute project and they just were like talk about talk about torching an entire Market explain what it is so there was this moment where when you were trying to build data centers you'd have these like oneu rack mounted kind of like machines that that you used and what Facebook obs OB ered was there was only a handful of companies that provided it and so it was unnecessarily

expensive and so Facebook just designed their own and then release the specs online just kind of said here it is and they went to these Taiwanese manufacturers and other folks and said please make these for your Cost Plus a few bucks and it was revolutionary in that market because it allowed this open platform to sort of embrace this very critical element that everybody needs and and I think there's going to be a lot of these examples inside of AI because the costs are so extreme so much more than just building a data center for a traditional web app that the incentives to do it are just so so meaningful yeah and I just showed it on

the screen sax you've actually been dancing along this line last night I was using your new slack killer or coexist I'm not sure it feels like a slack killer to me because I'm moving my company to it on over the weekend we're moving to glue and you and I were doing some very I think I may need to wet my beak on this one we want you to W your beak it feels like aund bagger to me uh I'm in killer that's the way we're thinking about it killer ask because Jal jcal can you do that again in Christopher Walkin voice please I get to wet my beak it's like a 100x sliding 500 wow saxs tell me about product decisions where does the AI Ed and your product begin yeah well it's a good point I mean

I I think where the AI ends we want to use the most powerful AI models possible and we want to focus on Enterprise chat so you could think of us as for sure a slack killer or slack competitor it say that slack wasn't built for the AI era glue is AI native what does that mean no channels you know I showed this to jth the first thing you said is you add me at no channels right people are so sick of channels you have to keep up with all these hundreds and hundreds of channels and the real problem with channels is there's one thread in a channel that you want to see in order to see it you have to join the whole channnel and now you're getting all this noise people

just want the threads so if you look at what's the chat model inside of chat GPT it's just threads right you create a topic based thread in chat GPT the AI comes up with a name for it puts it in the sidebar and then if you want to talk about something else you create a new chat that's exactly the way that glue works it's just multiplayer you just put the groups and individuals you want on the thread let me just show you real quick here's my uh glue here and you can see that in the sidebar I've got all the threads that I've been involved in and like I said you can address them to multiple people or groups and then

you've got the chat here now we've also fully integrated Ai and so Nick who's our producer just in this thread said at glue AI what countries to saaks talk about most in episodes episodes is a group we created to be the repository of all of the transcripts of our episodes and so glue did a search and it said David Sachs frequently discusses Ukraine why the most yeah really so then so then Nick said be more specific about Sach stance on Ukraine Russia War oh boy and it's gonna overload the server well here it said here David sax has articulated a nuance and critical perspective on the Ukraine Russia War

across various episodes of the all and pod here are some key points encapsulating his stance and it like nailed it it's talked about prevention through diplomacy opposition to Nato expansion humanitarian concerns skepticism military intervention peace de proposal you know I'll I'll copy and paste this onto Twitter X later today but the point is it like nailed it across all these different episodes and then this a feature of glue it provided sources so it CES where it got all the information from so imagine you know we're we're doing this for the all-in Pod but you could imagine that instead of it being transcripts of a podcast it could be your work documents you now

have in your main chat the ability just to ask hey act glue AI remind me where we left that project or tell me who the expert is on this subject matter or who's contributed the most to this project I've actually figured out using glue AI who's contributed the most deal flow at craft is pretty amazing now let me show you like some the answer what's the answer I'm not gonna say here I think it's Brian Brian's my guy those two my guy I want if I got go Daniel and Brian boom bo that's how I get sacks on the line okay you take Daniel I'll hire Brian reconstitute craft we'll call itft all right look let me let me show you a cple SX I just looked at the um chat jp4

Omni server and when you did that query it actually rolled its eyes keep going okay hell so so we talked about how chbt 40 understands sentiment in conversations and I think this is a really good example so Evan who's my co-founder at glue was just testing this for us and he asked what is each besties personality type based on conversations and episodes and first of all it figured out who the besties are like we didn't program that it just figured it out on its own which is pretty impressive and here's what I said about each bestie's personality so it says Jason calanis role the moderator and Entertainer

personality traits charismatic humorous Lively and the glue of the group often praise often pra for his ability to make the podcast entertaining and keep the conversation flowing Jason's energy and ability to bring humor and disc discusss or key elements that Define his role in the podcast comments he's acknowledged for his role in bringing the group together jamaath ptia the Visionary and Hustler personality TR traits insightful driven persistent Chamas Relentless drive and ability to hustle admire by your peers Mak him a core part of the podcast intellectual discussions I'll skip me but does freeberg the pragmatic scientist and realist pragmatic

methodical and a bit reserved oh freeberg is often the voice of reason bringing a scientific and realistic perspective the discussion he focuses on analysis logical reasoning and then it CES where it got this from and it says here overall the dynamic between the four besties creates a well-rounded and engaging podcast with each member bringing their unique strengths and personality traits at the table I think that's pretty incredible how woke is this have you uh have you put any rails on or is this just pure chat GPT 40 combined with the data yeah yeah so what we're doing here is we're wrapping chat GPT 40 with glue features that we've implemented to get the most

out of the conversation there's things we have to do to scope the The Prompt and then we're using a retrieval augmented generation service called raggi which does rag as a service that basically slurps in our transcripts and makes them accessible to the AI so um that's basically the stack that we're using but as the models get better and better glue just gets better and better again can I can I just make a comment on this it's just so clean jcal was the key for me in abandoning slack he told me two or three years ago he called me and he said I have you can tell me the exact channels I eliminated some channels at work

random there was like two or three channels at your your slack instance wasn't allowed to have and I was like this is genius and I went in and I was like all of our companies should just eliminate these channels and we could only get like 20% or 30% compliance but it really started to turn me off slack because I would get caught in these threads that were just so totally useless and I thought why aren't people working and this is really great because you cannot BL on about nonsense in glue which I find really useful well this is what happens when slack we used it at 8090 just so you know so we were the we got into the early get into slack too much people start to think slack is the

job and replying to slacks and having conversations is the job when there's actually a job to be done there's a job to be done yeah and so it's important and what I liked about this implementation saxs was it's like the ability to make a feed or a data source inside of your communication platform so the fact that you imported all of the episodes and their transcripts is great but what I want is like our HubSpot or our cell CRM I want our zenes I want our LinkedIn jobs and our LinkedIn job applications I want our notion I want our Koda to each have the ability and when I was using it last night what you do is you use the at symbol to evoke and

to summon in a way it's like summoning Beetle Juice So you summon your AI but then you tell it what data set you want to go after so you say you know at AI let's talk about I don't know how do you manage your deal flow at craft do you use software like CRM software to manage deals Brian we just do it all glue but we do it all in glue so it's already right there but you're right so so the the first thing that glue AI has access to is all of your chat history which is amazing because you get like you know then can look at all your attachments and we've got I think six Integrations at launch and there'll be more so yeah like all of your Enterprise data will be there in the short term you're right you

have to summon the repository by app mentioning because the AI needs a little bit of help of where to look but in the future it's going to figure it out on its own so it's just GNA become more and more seamless but it'll insert itself so we have a discussion about sales and then you might have a sales bot that says hey by the way nobody's called this client in three months well that's where I want to go with it is I call that prompt lless which is want the AI just to chime in when it determines that it has relevant information and can help the team even if it hasn't been summoned yet but we need some model Improvement for that frankly I mean we'll be able to get there by GPT 5 but that's totally

where this is headed I'll show you just one more fun example if I could let me just show you this so I asked it to to write a letter to Lena KH to be a guest at the all-in summit and I told it mention positive things we've said about Lena KH in episodes of the all-in Pod and so it wrote this letter dear chair con we hope this message finds you well on behalf the host the all in pod we excited an invitation for you to speak at the upcoming all in Summit and then it says in our conversations we have frequently highlighted your impressive credentials and the impactful work you've undertaken for example in episode 36 we acknowledge

your trailblazing role and so the letter was able to quote episodes of the all-in Pod just without anyone having to go do that research and figure out like what would be the best because I told it only say positive things don't say anything negative and then and then it said warmer guards and it said who the four besties were again we never told it who the besties are we just said write us a letter so it's pretty incredible now this is just an example with the all-in Pod think about any work context where the AI has access to your previous work documents it's pretty amazing what it can do well I mean it is kind of in the name like this

is glue put you together and slack is where you slack up makes total sense the brands give you a little bit of a tip we should have seen it coming with slack totally we have a breaking news story it's a breaking news story it's an Allin exclusive today on the program I got breaking news coming in fredberg your life's work saxs did his uh product review now it's your turn freeberg we got breaking news coming in I did promise you that when ohal decides to come out of St he and explains what we've done and what we're doing I would do it here on the all-in Pod first before the in exclusive all in exclusive so basically by the time this pod airs we're gonna be

announcing what ohal has been developing for the past five years and has had an incredible breakthrough in which is basically a new technology in agriculture and we call it boosted breeding I'm going to take a couple minutes just to talk through what we discovered or invented at ohal and why it's important and the kind of significant implications for it but basically five years ago we had this theory that we could change how plants reproduce and in doing so we would be able to allow plants to pass 100% of their genes to their offspring rather than just half their genes to their offspring and if we could do that then all the genes from

the mother and all the genes from the father would combine in The Offspring rather than just half the genes from the mother and half the genes from the father and this would radically transform crop yield and improve the health and the size of the plants which could have a huge impact on agriculture because yield the size of the plants ultimately drives productivity per acre revenue for Farmers cost of Food calorie production sustainability Etc so this image just shows generally how reproduction Works you've got two parents you get a random selection of half of the DNA from the mother and a random

selection of half the DNA from the father so you never know which half you're going to get from the mother or which half you're going to get from the father that's why when people have kids every kid looks different and then those two halves come together and they form The Offspring so every time a new child is born every time a plant has Offspring you end up with different genetics and this is the problem with plant breeding let's say that you have a bunch of gen in one plant that are disease resistant a bunch of genes in the other plant that are drought resistant and you want to try and get them together today the way we do that in agriculture is we spend

decades trying to do plant breeding where we try and rind all these different crosses find the ones that have the good genes find the other ones that have the good genes and try and keep combining them and it can take forever and it may never happen that you can get all the good genes together in one plant to make it both disease resistant and Dr resistant so what we did is we came up with this theory that we could actually change the genetics of the parent plants we would apply some proteins to the plants and those proteins would switch off the reproductive circuits that cause the plants to split its genes and as a result the parent plants give 100% of

their DNA to their offspring so The Offspring Have double the DNA of either parent you get all the genes from the mother all the genes from the father and finally after years of toiling away at trying to get this thing to work and all these experiments and all these approaches is we finally got it to work and we started collecting data on it and the data is ridiculous like the Y on some of these plants goes up by 50 to 100% or more just to give you a sense like in the the corn seed industry breeders that are breeding corn or spending $3 billion doar a year on breeding and they're getting maybe one and a half% yield gain per year with our system we we are seeing 50 to 100% jump

in the size of these plants it's pretty incredible here's an example this is a little weed that we that you do exper with in agriculture called a rabid dosis so it's really easy to work with and you can see that what we have on the top are those two parents A and B and then we applied our boosted technology to them and combined them and we ended up with that Offspring called boosted ABS you can see that that plant on the right is much bigger it's got bigger leaves it's healthier looking Etc fre ask you a question does that mean that the boosted one has twice the number of chromosomes As A and B exactly right so is that like

a new species then yeah so um it's with twice the chromosomes yeah it's it's called poly so we actually see this happen from time to time in nature for example humans have two sets of chromosomes right so does corn so do many other species somewhere along the evolutionary history wheat doubled and then doubled again and you end up actually in wheat having six sets of chromosomes wheat is what's called a hexaploid potatoes are a tetrol they have four sets of chromosomes and strawberries are an octoploid they have eight and some plants have as many as 24 sets of chromosomes so certain plant species have this really weird thing that might happen from time to time in

evolution where they double their their DNA naturally and so what we've effectively done is just kind of Applied a protein to to make it happen and bring the correct two plants together when we make it happen and so this this could only happen for a plant right this could never happen with an animal it wouldn't it wouldn't work in animals it works in Plants okay and one way you can think about plant genetics is all the genes are sort of like tools in a toolbox the more tools you give the plant the more it is it has available to it to survive in any given second to deal with drought or hot weather or cold weather Etc and so every given second the more tools or

the more genes the plant has that are beneficial the more likely it is to keep growing and keep growing and that plays out over the lifetime of the plant with bigger bigger leaves and bigger you know grows taller but more importantly if you look at the bottom the seeds get bigger and in most crops what we're harvesting is the seed that's true and you know corn and many other crops and so seeing over a 40% increase in seed in this little weed was a really big deal but then we did it in potato and potato is a crazy result potato is the third largest source of calories on Earth and so we took two potatoes that you see here in

the middle a and CD we applied our boosted technology to it to each of them and put them together and you end up with this potato ABCD that's the boosted potato and as you can see these were all planted on the same date and the boosted potato is much bigger than all the other potatoes here including a market variety that we show on the far right that's what's typically grown in the field now here's what's most important when you look under the ground and you harvest the potatoes you can see that that AB potato only had 33 grams CD had n grams so each parent had 33 and9 grams potato but the boosted Offspring had 682 grams

of potato the yield gain was insane and so you could see this being obviously hugely beneficial for Humanity potatoes being the third largest source of calories Indian potato farmers are growing one acre of potato in India they eat potato two meals a day in Africa potato is a food staple so around the world we've had a really tough time breeding potatoes and improving the yield with our system we've seen incredible yield gains in potato almost overnight and the other big are those potatoes those are normaliz potatoes that you see there those are like you know table potatoes basically that looks like a rusted potato right there that's

like a normal siiz rust it started like a little creamer potato basically and you blew it up into a rusted potato is that yeah so the genetics on AB you can see they're like little purple tiny little purple potatoes the genetics on CD are like these little white you know tiny little ball potatoes but when you put those two together with boosted and you combine all the DNA from Ab and all the DNA from CD you get this crazy high yielding potato ABCD which by the way is higher yielding than the market variety that's usually grown in the field on the far right so why not just grow russet potatoes then we are and so we're working on doing this with russet we're

working on doing this with every major potato line sorry um the the the the Improvement you'll see is actually in yield so it's not the size of the potato it's the number of potatoes that are being made um and so you'll see he acre or something like that like the exactly you know projects in the 60s and 70s sh you know how you can tell freeberg is onto something here he got David saaks to pay attention during it this is a this gonna be a deck oford if saak is awake saak is like how do I wet my be s is interrogating the potato lines I've never what's going on I think J is interesting but so have you tried these potatoes do they taste different oh no they're awesome yeah they're

they're potatoes and we do a lot of analysis sprouted any horns yet or anything like that no I mean again one of the other advantages of the system that we've developed let me go back here and I just want to take two seconds on this one of the other things this unlocks is creating actual seed that you can put in the ground in CRS that you can't do that in today so potatoes the third largest source of calories but the way we grow potatoes you guys remember the movie The Maran you chop up potatoes and you put them back in the ground because the seed that comes out of a potato which grows on the top in the flow every one of those seed is genetically different

because of what I just showed on this chart right you get half the DNA from the mother half the DNA from the father so every seed has different genetics so there's no potato seed industry today and potato is like a hundred billion Doll Market with our system not only can we make potatoes higher yield and make them disease resistant what we also make is perfect seed so farmers can now plant seed in the ground which saves them about 20% of Revenue takes out all the disease risk and makes things much more affordable and easier to manage for Farmers so it creates entirely new seed Industries so we're going to be applying this boosted technology that we've discovered across nearly every major

crop worldwide it'll both increase yield but it will also have a massive impact on the ability to actually deliver seed and help farmers and make food prices lower and improve sustainability no it's it's actually cheaper so higher Yi lower cost do you need more water less water less land less energy do you need more fertilizer fertilizer usually scales with biomass but these sorts of systems should be more efficient so fertilizer use per pound produced should go down significantly as we get to to commercial trials with all this stuff and we're doing this across many crops so there's a lot of work to do in terms of like how

do you scale the field tell us about the the patents and how important patents play a role in this because isn't it like like one of monsanto's big things like they just go and Sue everybody into the ground or whatever like I'm an answer you one second I'm just goingon to switch my headset it just died wow we went from sachs's Bots to free BG's crops epode I'm glad we're doing him second cuz all of a sudden like group chat doesn't seem very important yeah wow he just he just solved the whole Ukraine crisis here we're going to be able to grow wheat in the desert and in the rainforest he solved the world food

problem yeah saaks what if you what did you do for the last six months yeah we made Enterprise chat a little better but we added AI to Enterprise chat we cleaned up your slack so yeah when you invest we've invested a ton of money this was stealth for five years we put a ton of money into this business so when you invest that um I mean north of 50 North North of 50 yeah 50 million five years and you don't have a product in market yet wow that's some we actually have some product yeah so I haven't talked about the way we've been making money in some of the business we've been doing okay let me just make sure this is

like clear so that last photo you showed with the different types of potatoes you had created the super huge ones but you're saying that the the yield benefit here is just you create a much bigger hardier plant that's capable of producing many potatoes but the size of the potatoes doesn't change you can control for that when you breed so the selection of what plants you put together in the boosted system allows you to decide do you want small medium large that's all part of the the design of which plants do you want to combine okay because your goal is not to turn like a rusted potato into like a watermelon or something like that no no the goal is to make more russed potato

per acre so that we use less water we use less land farmers can make more money people pay less for food that's the goal and so it's all about yield it's not about changing the characteristics there are some crops where you want to change the characteristics like you might want to make bigger corn kernels and bigger cobs on the corn which is another thing that we've done and that's actually been published in our patent and the Reason by the way I'm talking about all this is some of our patents started to get published last week and so when that came out the word started to get out and that's why we decided to get public with

what we've done because it's now coming out in the open you mentioned something briefly there about where different crops can be planted you know we had these big talks about wheat and corn they're only available in very specific s you know north of the equator the camp jungles camp in obviously polar or desert extremes so if you're successful what would this do for on a global basis where these crops are made because remember this whole discussion about Ukraine question totally the Wheat Belly of uh Europe the Cradle of wheat yeah it's a great question I'm so glad you asked it because that's one of the key drivers for the business is that we can now make crops adapted to all sorts of

new environments that you otherwise food today there's close to somewhere between 800 million and a billion people that are malnourished that means they living on less than 1200 calories a day for more than a year but on average we're producing 3500 calories per person worldwide in our a systems the problem is we just can't grow crops where we need them and so by being able to do this sort of system where we can take crops that are very drought resistant or can grow in sandy soil or very hot weather and adapt cooler climate crops to those regions but through the system we can actually move significantly where

things are grown and um and improve food access in regions of me how freeberg when you look at a potato how do you figure out what part of their DNA is the drought resistant part yeah and then how do you make sure that that's turned on so even if you inherit that chromosome it's is is there some potential interaction with the generally if we can so these are what are called markers genetic markers and so there are known markers associated with known phenotypes a phenotype is a physical trait of a plant and so we know lots of markers for every crop that we grow markers for disease resistance drought resistance markers for big plants short plants Etc

and so what we do is we look at the genetics of different plants that we might want to combine into the boosted system and we say these ones have these markers these ones have these markers let's put them together and then that that'll drive the results one of the other interesting things we're seeing which I didn't get too much into in the slides it's not just about combining traits but it turns out when you add more genes together biology figures out a way to create Gene networks these are all these genes that interact with each other in ways that are not super well understood but it makes the the organism healthier and bigger and live longer this is like when you bring like why

muts are healthier and live longer than purebred dogs because they have more genetic diversity so there's a lot of work now in what's called quantitative genomics where you actually look at the statistics acoss all the Gen you use a model and the model predicts which two crosses you want to make out of hundreds of thousands or millions of potential crosses that the AI predicts here's the two best ones to to cross because you'll get this growth or this healthiness how do you want to make money freeberg are you going to sell the seeds are you going to become the direct farmer are you going to become food as a

service like how do you make the most money from this we're not going to farm farmers are our customers and so they're different ways to partner with people in the industry who already have seed businesses or already have genetics and help them improve the quality of their business and then there's other Industries like in potato where we're building our own business of making potato seed for example so every crop and every region is actually quite different so it becomes a pretty complicated business to scale we're in the earlier days we're already Revenue generating I would like a sweeter blueberry no comment no comment yeah I get tilted by the quality of the

driscolls blueberries let me tell you something about the driscolls blueberries also the Driscoll I've I've had only one batch of a Driscoll strawberry that was just off the charts and every 19,8 47 other batches I bought have been total yeah now you want the European small ones or the Japanese ones from H CU they're rich and sweet and they're not these like monstrosity of giant flavor of strawberries seedless could you do a seedless mango yeah you cut it cut it oh my God how great would that be amount of work per bite on a mango is like the worst ratio yeah oh my god well somehow we made it about us yeah no no look I think that's it is all about you guys tell us

about the blueberries sorry every year driscolls puts out a special labeled package called sweetest batch and they just had the sweetest batch of strawberry and blueberri I don't know if they're still in the stores but they only last for like a week or two and that's the best genetics only grown on a small number of Aces really inred going as soon as this is done see if they have it still I got it a few weeks ago it's quite delicious anyway we know let's just say we know the berry Market very well my co-founder CTO Jud Ward who's whose brilliant idea boosted breeding was many years ago who I met because they had a New Yorker article on Jud I cold called him and said hey will you

come in and give us a tech talk we started talking and Jud came up with this idea for boosted breeding and so we started the business with Jud and Jud ran molecular breeding at Driscoll so we have a lot of Driscoll people that work at ohal we know the market really well can you go back to the patent stuff like are youed person so we spent we spent 50 million bucks on you know plus on this business to date so we have filed for IP protection that people can't just rip us off but I would say I think that the real Advantage for the business arises from what we call Trade Secrets which is not just about taking patents and going

out and suing people that's not a great business the business is how do you build a moat and then how do you extend that moat the great thing about plant breeding and genetics is that once you make an amazing variety the next year the variety gets better and the next year the variety gets better and so it's hard for anyone to catch up that's why seed companies generally get monopolies in the markets because farmers will keep buying that seed every year provided it delivers the best genetics and so our business model is really predicated on how do we build advantages and Moes and then keep extending them rather than try

to leverage IP so I I'm big fan of like building business model advantages this is going to be incredible Sachs if you think about you know geopolitically what's going on in Somalia Sudan Yemen Afghanistan those places have tens of millions of people I think hundreds of millions collectively who are at risk for starvation if you could actually make crops that could be farmed there freedberg you would change humanity and then all these people buying up Farmland in America that could devalue that Farmland if that wasn't as limited of a resource you freeberg like no I think um so first of all like Farmland in America is mostly familyowned it's about 60% rented actually so a lot of families own

it and then they rent it out because they sto farming it but the great thing that we've seen in agriculture historically is that the more calories we produce the more food we produce the more there seems to be a market it's like any other economic what about system wheat and rice yeah so those are calorie sources one and two and there's certainly opportunity for us to apply our boosted systems there the big breakthrough with potato is we can make potato seed using our boosted system in addition to making better potatoes McDonald's is the largest buyer of potatoes yeah so in the US 60% of the potatoes go to french fries and potato chips McDonald's buys most of the fries

PepsiCo under fro buys most of the potato chip potatoes 40% are table potatoes in India 95% of the potatoes are table potatoes they're eaten at home and the Indian potato Market's three to four times as big as the potato Market in Brazil it's 90% table potato so all around the world potato different the US is you know unusually large consumers of french fries and potato chips I speak on behalf of J celvin I said we will gladly invest the million at a 10 cap in both of your businesses absolutely yes we will grift our way into this J J Cal and I will do the deal wire the money we wire the money a little million to each

of you guys at a 10 cap thank you absolutely you're it may not be cap though but yes breing news jam and jcal have secured the bag so breaking news jam and jcal have secured the bag from the bes actually doing work yeah well I appreciate you guys letting me talk about it exced to both of you I love it it's been yeah for yeah building stuff is hard there's always risk it's a lot of work and a lot of setbacks but man when you get stuff working it's great we're each doing the things we do best freeberg is solving the world's hunger problem and I'm making I'm cleaning up your slack making your Enterprise chat a little better all progress C all right Stanley dren Miller has got

a new boyfriend dren Miller's got a boyfriend and his name is Javier and they alop to Argentina dck Miller professed his love like Tom Cruz on Oprah couch in a CNBC interview this week the only free market quote leader in the world right now bizarrely is in Argentina of all places he cut Social Security 35% after he came to office they've gone from a primary deficit of like four or five% to a 3% Surplus they've taken a massive hit in GDP basically a depression for a quarter and his approval rating has not gone down truck and Miller has explained how he invested in Argentina after seeing mala's speech at Davos which we covered here's a 30 second clip play the clip

Nick by the way do you want to hear how I invest in our artina it's a funny story I wasn't at Davos but I saw the speech in Davos and it was about 1:00 in the afternoon in my office I dialed up perplexity and I said give me the five most liquid adrs in Argentina Argentina it gave me enough of a description that I follow the old Soros rule invest and then investigate I bought all of them we did some work on them I increased my positions so far it's been great but we'll see yeah that's quite interesting he um quick note you hear Dr Miller mentioned adrs for those of you who don't know and I was one of them they stand for American depository receipts basically a global stock offered on a US

exchange to simplify things for investors yeah I mean he didn't sign a prenup here he just went all in and he bought the stock chamath and then he's going to figure it out later tell us your thoughts on this love affair this Bromance there's a great clip of mle he goes on this talk show in Argentina and the talk show host she's just so excited and greets him and then they start making out have you guys seen this what they're just out of control full on French kissing each other it's hilarious yeah I mean like Soros has been very famous for this invest and investigate thing it's a it's like a smart strategy for very very liquid Public Market investors that have the

Curiosity that he does I mean I don't have much of a reaction to that I think that the the thing with Argentina that's worth taking away is when you've spent decades casting about and misallocating capital and running your economy into the ground the formula for fixing it is exactly the same you cut entitlements and you reinvigorate the economy and so the thing we need to take away is if we don't get our together that's probably what we're going to have to do Sachs the influence of mle on American politics Will there be any it seems like he has paralleled what Elon did at Twitter Facebook uh and and zucked it at

Facebook do you think that this you know experiment he's doing down there of just cutting staff cutting departments will ever make its way into American politics probably not I mean not until we're forced to but what mle did he comes in and they've got a huge budget deficit and they've got runaway inflation and they're deba ing their currency and just practically overnight he just slashes government spending to the point where he has a government surplus and then as soon as he gets credibility with the markets that allows them to reduce interest rates inflation goes away and people start investing in the country magic It's Magic there is a

path it's obvious listen I mean you can't run deficits forever you can't accumulate debt forever it's just like a household if your spending exceeds your income eventually you got to pay it back or you go broke and the only reason we haven't gotten broke or experienced hyperinflation is because we're the world's Reserve currency so there's just a lot of room for debasement and there's not a ready alternative yet I mean everyone's trying to figure out what the alternative will be so we've been able to accumulate more and more debt but it's it's reaching a point where it's unsustainable and what we've already

seen is that the feds had to jack up interest rates from very low practically nothing to 5 a half% and that has a real cost on people wellbeing because now your cost of getting a mortgage goes way up I mean mortgage rates are over what 7 and a half% now yeah six s% depending on how much net worth and your credit rting yeah right and so it's much harder to get a mortgage now it's harder to make a car payment if you need to borrow to buy a car and if you have personal debt the interest rat is going to be higher the inflation rate actually doesn't take into account any of those things remember Larry Summers did that study where he said the real inflation rate

would be 18 % or would have peaked at 18% if you included a cost of borrowing that's why people don't feel as well off as the unemployment rate would normally suggest so people are hit really hard when interest rates go up in terms of big purchases they need to make with debt and then of course it's really bad for the investment environment because when interest rates are really high that creates a higher hurdle rate and people don't want to invest in Risk assets and So eventually the pace of innovation will go down and Dr Miller made this point in his next set of comments he said that treasury is still acting like we're in a depression it's interesting because I've

studied the depression you had a private sector crippled with debt basically with no new ideas so interventionist policies were called for and were effective he said the private sector could not be more different today than it was in the Great Depression the balance sheets are fine they're healthy and have you ever seen more innovation ideas that the private sector could take advantage of like blockchain like AI he says all the government needs to do is get out of the way and let them innovate inste theyve spend and spend and spent and my new fear now is that spending and the resulting interest rates on the debt that's been created are going to crowd

out some of the Innovation that otherwise would have taken place I completely endorse duck Miller's view of bionomics and actually I mean this is what I said way back in 2021 Victory lap here we go Little David saaks Victory lap we need a little graphic for that Dr used the word biomics and said I give these guys an F because they're they're still printing money and spending money like we're in a depression even though we're in a riping economy and when they started doing this back in 2021 you know I tweeted bionomics equals pumping trillions of dollars of stimulus into a roran economy I'm not going to pretend like I know what's going to happen next but never tried this before what

happened next was a lot of inflation and that jacked up interest rates according to even Keynesian economics the reason why you have deficit spending is because you're in a recession or depression and so use the government to stimulate and balance things out you don't you don't do deficit spending when the econom is already doing well so this spending there's no reason for it yeah it's like showing up to like a party that's going crazy and being like putting gasoline on the fire yeah I mean more importantly it should limit the approval or action of certain programs that you might otherwise want to do in a normal environment but in an

inflationary environment you don't have the flexibility to do them student loan forgiveness is a really good example is now the time of course not to do student loan forgiveness or do we wait for inflation to temper a bit is now the time you know so so there's just a lot of these examples that actually the opposite should be true yeah but none of all of those things get you votes before we move on from this look what we have coming out of Washington here is a contradictory and therefore self-defeating policy you've got the FED jacking up rates to control inflation you move across town and you've got Capitol Hill in the White House spending like there's no tomorrow which is

inflationary why would you do both those things choose what your policy is going to be it's like driving with your foot on the break and the gas at the same time it's not a great idea for the car let me just make one comment J Cal before we move on about the dren Miller investment statement of course and I I just wanted to say like I think what it highlights about dren Miller and call it a rift in investing philosophy or skill is the difference between precision and accuracy what I mean by that is precision really references that you do a lot of detail analysis to try and make

sure you understand every specific thing that is going right or could go wrong but the problem and so that means you for example might do a ton of diligence on a company and make sure you understand every dollar every point of margin all the specifics of the maturation of that business and where they are in their cycle but you could be very precise but be very inaccurate for example if you miss an entire Trend someone could invest in Macy's back when Amazon was taking off and have done a lot of precise analysis on Macy's margin structure and performance and said this is a great business but they missed the bigger Trend which is that e-commerce was going to sweep away Macy's and

consumers were simply that's not possible in the analysis that they were doing let's be honest freeberg nobody could make that stupid of a trade to say Macy's versus Amazon over the next 10 years well yeah and so like and um J you want to show that who no no no no do not poke the tiger let's not get into with other podcasters the worst spread trade in history yeah let me just finish the statement yeah but the other one is being accurate and accurate means you get the yeah the right bet the right sentiment yes the right Trend the problem with being accurate you could have said in the year 2000 hey the internet's going to take off and you could have put a bunch of money in but

the problem was you were right you just had to have the necessary patience and so accuracy generally yields better returns but it requires more patience because you can't necessarily time how long it will take for you to be right so a guy like drunen Miller is making an accurate bet he bets correctly on the trend on where things are headed he doesn't necessarily need to be precise but he has the capital and his capital structure that allows him to be patient to make sure that he eventually gets the return and to build on your thoughts having watched this movie a couple of times and you know I overthought the Twitter investment as but one example I had the opportunity to invest in Twitter

when it was like a singled digit Millions company I just thought you know what this thing is only like the headline and I told like it's the headline it's not like the entire blog post it's be a cacophony of idiots this thing is going to be chaos and I was right but I was wrong right great bet but my wrong analysis right and so you can add Precision to other aspects like when you sell your shares or when you double down but you have to get the trend right which is Evan Williams great entrepreneur Jack great entrepreneur Twitter taking off like a weed just make the BET right you knew too much about journalism you knew too much about the space they were trying to disrupt and

that can be a mistake correct we did yeah PayPal none of us knew anything about payments that was one of the reasons we were successful all the payments experts told us it couldn't be done right absolutely so that happens a lot I had never even know I didn't even know what a Facebook was when I joined Facebook it's an American college phenomenon no serious you don't have that in Canada but you knew Zuck and you you saw some growth charts and you saw some Precision in his ability to build product and I mean the great thing about the great thing about Network effect businesses is there's a trend line that sustains because it builds if if it's an

appropriate Network effect so you can be accurate about buying into the right Network effect business you don't need to use all of this diligence to be perfectly sound around the maturation of the revenue and the margin structure and all that stuff as long as the trend line is right and you're willing to be patient to hold your investment I think dren Miller's point is incredible he took a look he very quickly made a macro assessment from a macro perspective what mle is doing is significantly different than what we're seeing in any other Emerging Market let alone mature Market with respect to fiscal austerity and appropriateness in this sort of inflationary Global inflationary

environment and he said you know what I don't see any other leader doing this this is a no-brainer bet let me make the BET and as long as he's willing to hold this thing for long enough eventually the markets will get there and call it a spread trade against anything he'll be proven right well and so not to but speaking of bets J you told me this week that you just made your largest investment ever tell us about that yeah so I've gotten very lucky now because a lot of my Founders from the first couple of cohorts of investing I did when I was a sequoia Scout have come back and created second and third companies and so you know that happened with TK Uber and then

Cloud kitchens it happened with Raul from report of then superum and then it happened recently just in the past year my friend Jonathan who's the co-founder of thumbtack asked me to come to dinner he said hey you know you were the first investor in Thumbtack will you be the first investor in our next company Athena and I said sure what do you do and he explained it to me and and we put a seven figureure b in which is rare for us as a seed fund right normally our bet sizes are 100K 250 you know it's a $50 million fund why did you do it yeah it's very simple it's the fastest growing company I've ever seen and I'm including Uber in that it has been growing at uh

you know a rate that I'll just say is faster than Uber and Robin Hood when when we were investing in them tens of millions of dollars it's a very simple concept when Thumbtack was building their market place they used researchers in places like Manila Etc in the Philippines knowledge workers and what they realized was the 0.1% of those knowledge workers were as good or better than say Americans at doing certain jobs and so they've created this virtual EA service you can go see it at Athena wow.com and we now have two of them inside of our company it turns out Americans don't

want to do the operations rle so it's kind of like AWS you just give them $336,000 a year they give you essentially an operations or an EA and they have ones that are kind of chief of staish and this company is growing like a weed so I am working with them on the product design as well so imagine having you know two or three of these incredibly hardworking people who are trained with MBA class level curriculum they spend months training these people up they pay them two or three times what they would make at any other company and then they pair them with Executives here

and it's kind of been an underground Secret in Silicon Valley because it's only By Invitation right now because they can only train so many people but if you've tried to hire an executive assistant I don't know if anybody's tried to do that recently you hooked me up so I will be Guinea picking this service yes soon and I have two of them and so it is just the greatest that you can have an operations are these people powered by AI tools as well yeah so that's the kind of Secret Sauce here is they're training them and they watch you work and then they will learn how you do your job and then how quickly you can delegate and get stuff off your plate is

the name of the game so we have an investment team with researchers and analysts in it we have a due diligence team and then you have like executive functions in our fund they have now started shadowing you know you know highly paid Americans in an investment firm ours and then train them up and now our due diligence our first level screening you know and our tracking of companies is being done by these assistants for what I'll say is a third to a fourth of the price I was paying previously so what that does in an organization is we're just delegating away and then moving our investment team to doing in-person meetings and doing higher level stuff and so yeah you're

you're 8090 the so at 8090 we have this funny thing where we've made it a verb whenever you see somebody doing high quality work at a quarter to a tenth of the cost we say oh you just 89 it correct so you're you're 8090 in the investment team I'm 8090 in the investment team and you know what it was scary as hell for them because they're like am I GNA lose my job it's like no you now get to instead of doing a check and call once a month you can do a check and call every other week or every week or instead of doing 15 first round interviews a week you can do 25 because you have this assistant with you way doing all the repetitive work the way that companies will work in five and 10

years I don't think guys any of us are going to recognize what it's going to look like yeah so I go I mean like watching Sax's demo earlier how much progress and how seamless that product works with the features it has enabled by the underlying models you just get to thinking how all of these vertical software applications become completely personalized and quickly rebuilt around AI you know it's so obvious can you imagine how long it would have taken John to write a letter to Lena KH to invite like if we said John invite Lena KH But be sure to reference all the nice things we said about her on episodes of the Pod oh it be 10 hours of work got find find all

those you got to listen to them and figure out what the best quotes are you got and you got it done in five seconds it's incredible totally and then imagine building that same sort of capability into a very specific vertical application that's specific to some business function and you can probably spend a couple or an hour building that function and then it saves you hours a day in peret you know I think I think that's why these tools companies or the tools products that Google Microsoft Amazon and a few others are building are actually incredible businesses because so many Enterprises and so many vertical application Builders are going to be able to

leverage them to rewrite their entire business functions I got myself and my co-founders at 8090 we get this stream of emails of companies that are like like or people that are like we have this product idea or we have this small product one of the emails I got this was crazy was from a guy that's like oh we've 8090 Photoshop so like we have like a much much cheaper version of Photoshop and the guy was doing like a few million bucks of of AR and growing really nicely but then it turned out that somebody saw that and then 809 it so then there was version of that thing and so to your point freeberg none of these big companies a chance yeah yeah it's everything cheap faster not because

they're not because the products aren't good but like J's going to go off and experiment with this sack's going to go off and build a product you know as every time that you're at a boundary condition we're all going to explore well maybe we could do this with AI maybe we shouldn't hire a person not because we're trying to be mean about it but it's because the normal natural thing to do and the Opex of companies is just going to go down which means the size of companies are going to shrink which amount of M is going to and that's just going to create the ability for these compan to sell those products cheaper so M it's a massive deflationary tail we had the same thing happen with

compute and now it's happening inside of organizations I I wrote a blog post about this on my substack called add this is the framework I came up with I told my entire team look at what you got done every week and I want you to ask three questions how can I automate this how can I deprecate this how can I delegate it and you know the automate part is AI and what you're doing David the delegate part is atheno wow.com and then the deprecate is hey just be thoughtful what are you doing that you don't need to do and that's 8090 and something like there are things inside these products that you don't actually need what's the core functionality of the product you know make it as

affordable as possible and then what's going to happen for people who think this is bad for society you've got to completely wrong we're g to have more people be able to create more products and solve more problems the unemployment rate is going to stay very low we're just going to have more companies so the idea like there was somebody who was working on very small like software I want to I get pitched on very Niche ideas I want to create something where people can find people to play pickle ball with right like a pickle ball marketplace now that didn't wouldn't typically work because you would need $5 million a year to build that product but

if you can build it for $500,000 a year well now you've only got to clear that number to be profitable so a lot more smaller businesses a lot more all these little niche ideas will be a to be built and a VC who says I'm not giving you $5 million to build that app will be like but I will give you 500k and that's what I'm seeing on the ground in startups the same startups that had a request of $3 million in funding five years ago are now requesting 500 to a million it's deflationary all the way down did you incredible did you see the Google thing did you guys see the Google AI Gemini stuff chat GPT Omni launched at the same time or perhaps strategically right before Google

dropped its latest AI announcements at IO the biggest announcement is that they are going to change search this is the piece of the puzzle in the Kingdom that they have been very concerned with and they're going for it the new product and they have like 20 different products you can see them at labs. gooogle where they put all their different products but this is the most important one they call it AI overviews basically it's perplexity for most users by the end of the year they're going to have this here's how it works and you can see it on your screen if you're watching us go to YouTube here they gave an example how

do you clean a fabric sofa this normally would have given you 10 Blue Links here it gives you step-by-step guide with citations and links so they're preempting you know the issue of people getting upset and as I predicted they're going to have targeted ads here's the things you need in order to clean your couch you can only use this if you're using your Gmail account if you use like a domain name on Google it won't work there so go to labs. gooogle but they're doing citations and I think that we're going to see a major lawsuit here those people who are in those boxes are going to look at the answer here and realize maybe they don't get the click through

and that this answer was built on that and now we're going to have to have a new framework there's going to need to be sax a new company that clears this content so that Google can do answers like this the workflow stuff in Gmail also kicked ass the demo that they showed was you get a bunch of receipts and the person giving the demo she said something the effect of well wouldn't it be great if like you know the AI assistant were able to find all the receipts and then aggregated them and it put them in a folder and then also actually generated an expense report or like a a spreadsheet on the fly it it's crazy yeah I gotta say I think that it's

free to change your mind and so it's good to do that oh and I think that jamath in a rare moment of reflection might do a are we gonna have a re underwriting is this a re underwriting I change my mind all the time I just I mean you know because I'm gentlemen breaking news is rewriting his Google trick sorry I don't to blow your ears out I think the Google thing is pretty special between last week's announcement of isomorphic labs which let's be honest that's a that's just a multi hundred billion dollar company so you're saying there might be many think about it this way right m opportun sitting there dormant inside of Google that AI unlocks look at a company like royalty Pharma so

if royalty Pharma with a pretty it's a phenomenal business run by a phenomenal entrepreneur Pablo laretta but what is that business that's buying two and three% royalties of drugs that work and you can see how much value that those guys have created which is essentially 90% eitaa margin business it's outrageous because they're in the business of analyzing and then buying small slivers I think something like is morphic ends up being of that magnitude of margin scale but at an order of magnitude or two orders of magnitude higher Revenue so if you if you fold that back into a Google if you think about what they're doing now on the search side these guys

may be really kicking some ass here so I I I think that the the reports of their death were premature and exaggerated absolutely and the report of their death freeberg was based upon people don't need to click on the ads but as I said on this very Bas my belief is that this is going to result in more searches and more knowledge engagement because once you get how to cook your steak and get the the right uh temperature right for medium rare it's going to anticipate your next three questions better so now it's going to say hey what wine pairing would you want with that steak hey do you need steak knives and it's just going to read your mind that you need

steak knives and chamath likes to buy steak knives but maybe you like to buy mock meets whatever it is it's going to drive more research and more clicks so while the monetization per search may go down we might see many many more searches what do you think freeberg you work there and um when we look at the the the future of the company and the stock price Nick will pull it up man if you had held your stock yeah I don't know did you hold I think I bought some um original stock during the stu oh no I sold all my stock back when I started climate because I was a startup entrepreneur and needed to live so which you know I I Rec I did the math on it it was pretty it'd be worth

it' be worth a lot it would be worth billions or tens of billions no no would it have been a billion or okay no no okay you know I was not like a I was not a senior exact or anything I I think what you said is is probably true so that's a creative I think the other thing that's probably true is a big measure at Google on the search page in terms of search engine perform performance was the bounceback rate meaning someone does a search they go off to another site and then they come back because they didn't get the answer they wanted and then the one box launched which shows a short answer on the top which basically keeps people from having a bad search experience

because they get the result right away so a key metric is they're going to start to discover which vertical searches uh meaning like hey cooking recipes that kind of stuff like you're referencing travel there's lots and lots of these different types of searches that will a snippet or a one box that's powered by Gemini that will provide the user a better experience than them jumping off to a third party page to get that same content and then they'll be able to monetize that content that they otherwise were not participating in the monetization of so I think the real victim in all this is that long tale of content on the internet yeah that probably gets cannibalized by the

snippet one box experience within the search function and then I do think that the revenue per search query in some of those categories actually has the potential to go up not down explain explain give me an example you keep people on the page so you get more more search volume there you get more searches because of the examples you gave and then when people do stay you now have the ability to better monetize that particular search query because you otherwise would have lost it to the third party content page so for example selling the steak knives is another you know it's kind of a good example or booking the travel directly and so on so

by keeping more of the experience integrated they can monetize the search per query higher and they're going to have more queries and then they're going to have the quality of the queries go up so I think it's all in there's a case to be made I haven't done a spreadsheet analysis on this but I guarantee you going back to our earlier point about precision versus accuracy my guess is there's a lot of hedge fund type folks doing a lot of this Precision type analysis trying to break apart search queries by vertical and try to figure out what the net effect will be of having better AI driven box and Snippets and my guess is that's why there's a lot

of buying activity happening in the stock right now and I think they're probably all missing to's point a lot of these call options like isomorphic Labs I can tell you meta and Amazon meta and Amazon do not have an isomorphic lab and wh sitting inside their business that suddenly Pops to a couple hundred billion of market cap and Google does have a few of those so so other bats could actually pay off these there there may be look I mean there's Calico no one talks about calico I don't know what's going on over there exension yeah let me get saaks involved in this discussion saxs when we show that example it's obvious Google is telling you where they got these citations from and how they

built they how to clean your couch how to make your steak those they were in a very delicate balance with content creators over the past two decades which is hey we're going to use a little bit of your content but we're going to send you traffic this is going to take away the need to send traffic to these places they're going to benefit from it to me this is the mother of all class action lawsuits because is they're putting it right up there hey we're using your content to make this answer here's the citations we didn't get your permission to do this but we're doing it anyway what do you think is the resolution here does all these content go away because there's no model does Google try to make

peace with the content creators and cut them in or license their data what's going to happen to content creation when somebody like Google is just going to take wire cutter or these other sources that are not behind a pay wall and just give you the goddamn answer well look this is the same conversation we've had two or three times where we're going to need the courts to figure out what fair use is and depending on what they come up with it may be the case that Google has to cut them in by licensing by doing licensing deals we don't know the answer to that yet uh by the way I do know a Founder who is already skating to where the puck is going and creating a rights

Marketplace so that content owners can license their AI rights to whoever wants to use them I think that could be SM I was I had a call with him yesterday and you and I will be on that table together once again and I yeah yeah so I don't want to say who it is because going to let him announce his own round but um I'm going be participating in the seed round look stepping back here it's interesting if you go back to the very beginning of Google the OG Google search bar had two buttons on it right search and I feel lucky I feel lucky was just tell me the answer just take me to the best result and no one ever did that because it kind of sucked then they

started inching towards with one box but it wasn't you didn't get the one box very often it's very clear now that powered one box is the future of Google search people just want the answer I think that this feature is going to eat the rest of Google Search now it's a little bit unclear what the financial impact of that will be I think like you guys were saying there'll be probably be more searches because search gets more useful there's fewer Blue Links to click on but maybe they'll get you know compensated through those like relevant ads hard to say you're probably right that Google ultimately benefits here but let's not pretend this was a deliberate

strategy on their point they got drag Kicking and Screaming into this by innovation of perplexity and other companies yep they had no idea they got caught completely flat-footed and they've now I guess caught up by copying perplexity and sucks for perplexity I think they're kind of screwed now unless they get it's over an acquisition deal but perplexity came up with the idea of having citations in your having a comprehensive search result yeah which was something search result with citations and related questions and right they did it extremely well and quite frankly all Google had to do was copy them now they've done that and I think it does

look like a killer and by the way this was all something that I saw 15 years ago when I did Mahalo which was my human power search engine and which I had copied or been inspired by neor and D in Korea they were the first ones to do this you know it shamama because there were only three or four markets where Google couldn't displace the number one Korea Russia Japan Russia had um what was the Russian search engine God I can't remember now Japan had Yahoo Japan uh which masi yoshian had carved out it was never part of it and they were loyal to that and very nationalistic Koreans and very Innovative Folks at D and neor just made search that was so amazing you do a

search and be like here's music Here's images here's answers here's Q&A it was awesome but you know it just shows you like you need to have a lot a wherewith all and timing is everything as an entrepreneur my timing was 10 years too early and the wrong technology I used humans not AI because AI didn't work 15 years ago one thing I would say about big companies like a Google or Microsoft is that the power of your Monopoly determines how many mistakes you get to make so think about Microsoft completely missed iPhone remember and they like they screwed up the whole smartphone mobile phone era and it didn't matter didn't matter SAA comes in blows this thing up to A3 trillion doll public

public company same thing here with Google they completely screwed up AI they invented the Transformer completely missed llms then they had that Fiasco where you know they have black George Washington black George Washington doesn't matter they can make 10 mistakes but their Monopoly is so strong that they can finally get it right by copying the innovator and they're probably going to become A5 billion doll company now sorry five trillion dollar company it reminds me you know the greatest product creation company in history I think we all know who that was and take a a look down memory lane here are the 20 biggest felt Apple products of all time the appal Lisa Macintosh portable we all

remember the Newton which was their PDA the 20th anniversary Macintosh super sexy people don't remember they had their own video game I I was at a conference a couple years ago that Jeff spoke at I think he's given this talk in a couple other places you could probably find it on the internet yeah but he talks about Amazon's Legacy of failure and how they had the fire phone and the fire this and the fire that and he's like our job is to fail swings we have to make these blunders but what makes us successful is that we learn from the failures and you know we make the right next decision yeah yeah but I say if you're a startup and you make big failures you usually just go out of

business one and done but this is how you this is how you but this is how you stay competitive if you're a big founder Le tech company the only way you're going to have a shot at staying relevant is to take big shots that you're going to fail at I just you have you have to do things you're to fail right remember this boom box is one of the huge difference between startups and big companies is that big companies can afford to have a portfolio of products they have a portfolio of bets some of them will work and that keeps the company going startup really has to go all in on their best idea totally I always tell Founders just go all in on your best idea they're

always ask me for permission to Pivot and I always tell them do go for the best idea don't don't hedge don't try do five things at once just go all in on your best idea yeah yeah and if it doesn't work out you reboot and start with a new c table you're going to go all in so to speak another amazing episode is in the Ken the boys are in a good mood you got your great episode no guests this week just all bestie all the time and very important the march to a million continues halfway there you got us there fans we hit 500,000 subbies on YouTube which means y all earned a live Q&A with your besties coming at you in the next couple of weeks we're going to

do it live on YouTube so if you're not one of the first 500 get in there now so you get the alert we're going to take your questions live it's going to be dangerous any questions no questions uh are dangerous who knows what could happen on a live show and by the way I just want to let you know that Phil helmouth breaking news Phil helmouth and Draymond Green just resigned from open AI we didn't get into that but the open a resignations continue Phil H has tweeted he is no longer with open AI you guys like my baby cashmir pink sweater it's pretty great we gonna get Summer chamat soon are the buttons coming down are you gonna go linen the when does linen chamat show up the

unbuttoning is about to happen in the next two or three weeks great unbuttoning this is how you know it's kind of like Groundhog Day you know that Summer's here when we lat's buttons almost it's Memorial Day when after Memorial Day the button can come down yeah we're going to go three buttons down be wearing my black tea Sachs will still be blue blaze or blue shirt red tie and freeberg in Fields of Gold look at freeberg in Fields of Gold taking us out Sting Fields of Gold coming at you two for Tuesday see you all in the next all in pod for the Sultan of science raain Man David saxs and chairman dictator I am your Z100 Morning Zoo DJ we'll see you next time love you

boys byebye byebye will let your winners ride Rainman David and in said we open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with it love queen [Music] of Besties my dog taking your driveway man oh man my habiter will meet me we should all just get a room and just have one big huge orgy cuz they're all this useless it's like this like sexual tension that they just need to release [Music] somehow we need to get [Music] mer I'm going and now the plugs the all-in Summit is taking place in Los Angeles on September 8th through the 10th you can apply for a ticket at summit. Allin

podcast.co scholarships will be coming soon you can actually see the video of this podcast on YouTube youtube.com Allin or just search Allin podcast and hit the alert Bell and you'll get updates when we post and we're going to do a party in Vegas my understanding when we hit a million subscribers so look for that as well you can follow us on xx.com the Allin pod Tik Tok is allore inor talk Instagram the all inod and on LinkedIn just search for the all-in podcast you can follow chth x.com chth and you can sign up for a substack at cho. substack docomo freeberg can be followed at x.com freeberg and ohal is hiring click on the careers page at ohal

genetics.com and you can follow saxs at x.com davit saxs saxs recently spoke at the American moment conference and people are going crazy for it it's pinned to his tweet on his X profile I'm Jason kakanis I am x.com Jason and if you want to see pictures of my Bulldogs and the food I'm eating go to instagram.com Jason inth firstname Club you can listen to my other podcasts this week in startups just search for it on YouTube or your favorite podcast player we are hiring a researcher apply to be a researcher doing primary research and working with me and producer Nick working in data and Science and being able to do great research Finance Etc Allin podcast.co resesarch it's a

full-time job working with us the besties and really excited about my investment in Athena go to Athena wow Athena wow.com and get yourself a bit of a discount from your boy jcal beow wild.com we'll see you all next time on the Allin podcast