E70: EMERGENCY POD! Russia invades Ukraine: Reactions, Putin's ambition, Biden's response and more

[Music] and they've just gone crazy with them all right everybody welcome to another episode of the all in podcast episode number 70 we made it to 70 episodes which is just shocking to me and we're recording a little bit earlier uh because one of our besties uh had to change their schedule chamath and um it's a crazy day to be doing this last night putin decided to invade the ukraine late wednesday night early into thursday morning putin started a special military operation in quotes to demilitarize the ukraine and we've been watching this build up for weeks

you're missing it he said to demilitarize and deny supply and de nazify yes of course um because the ukraine was filled with so many nazis uh his trolling continues i guess just starting it off um sax you're a big putin fan uh along with trunk and uh you're the right wing so tell us how glorious is uh this invasion for the republican party well it's it's it's interesting what it's well that's funny but it's also it's also kind of sad because what you're doing right there is exactly what the whole twittersphere is doing which is anybody who wants to actually de-escalate and defuse this war before it escalates and

metastasizes in something much worse it gets denounced as a putin apologist i have no dealings in either you know russia or ukraine for that matter ukrainian cash is not lining my pockets like many of our politicians their families in washington i have no interest except preserving the safety of the united states of america and the point is that i think biden the one clear elusive point that he made in his last speech i know he's giving one today is that the united states of america would not intervene militarily in ukraine we should all understand that he made it very clear the troops that were being sent over there were to defend our nato

allies ukraine is not one we do not have a treaty obligation to defend them what is happening right now is tragic putin is the aggressor it's a humanitarian disaster i do feel bad for the people of ukraine our thoughts and prayers are with them however we are not going to intervene militarily in that conflict nor should we because we cannot risk starting world war iii it is not a vital american interest who rules the donbass in a way that it is a vital american interest to avoid a war with russia and the tragedy here the second tragedy is that we did not do everything we could to diplomatically try and solve this

problem and what do i mean by that on this pod three weeks ago i said that ukraine was never gonna be part of nato why because biden has said it we can't defend them militarily against russia we were never gonna admit them why didn't we give up that card that i'm we don't know for sure what would have happened but if we had been willing to basically affirm that we believe in ukraine's sovereignty but they are not part of nato that might have diffused this conflict i think we had consensus on that we said like hey what if i think actually i suggested what if we set a five-year you know moratorium on them joining or something absolutely put that

out there can i just have sex one question on this okay yeah sex do you not think that the us you know regardless of the obligations under uh um nato faces a little bit of an issue on a global stage where you know we we told this leader back down don't do this and then we don't respond militarily that that action effectively reduces america's influence and credibility when it comes to these sorts of defensive statements in this kind of global theater and our primacy is being challenged because we laid down the law we said this is not allowed you cannot do this there's going to be repercussions

and then it happens and there are economic sanctions and you know maybe we'll talk in a second about some other potential repercussions but by not doing something militarily we weaken ourselves and we weaken our position and it gives permission to others to take action that maybe counter ultimately to kind of the us interests abroad okay so in response i have to we'll quote what barack obama said um and we've mentioned this on a previous party he said the fact is that ukraine which is and this is back in the the atlantic interview he gave the fact is that ukraine which is a non-nato country is going to be vulnerable to military domination by

russia no matter what we do this is an example where we have to be very clear about what our core interests are and what we are willing to go to war for the fact of the matter is none of us on this pod want to send our sons and daughters to go fight and risk their lives and die to determine who rules the donbass or even ukraine we sympathize with them we may impose sanctions on their behalf we may arm them militarily but we are not willing to fight and so therefore us trying to lay down this law to putin was a bluff and he called our bluff and the smart thing we can do right now is not to escalate look we've already gone

to the river he's you know we basically tried to barrel and bluff him at every street we got to the river he has now invaded we're now in a showdown what do you want to do now you want to escalate this even more the only way that we could make this worse is to precipitate a world war now if our absolute priority our absolute priority right now should be to make sure that this war doesn't spread my prediction is as of right now it would be very unpopular to go to war uh or for the u.s to enter the war uh in a um on the battlefield i i do think and i don't know if we're gonna hear more about this today but i do think that the cyber war is beginning today uh

the united states has talked at length about having uh you know a tremendous cyber capabilities and my understanding is as of this morning a number of state websites were down in russia and a number of um uh you know russian cyber interests were under attack and so we may see the u.s kind of confront russia on another battle stage not on the uh you know on the field on the physical field but if over the next couple of weeks this continues their days and i was just looking at cnn this morning and bbc and there were these images that started to come out of like you know ukrainian um

airplanes that that had been downed and if you start to see images of children um you know helpless children buildings being bombed bodies strewn on the street does that not change kind of the american opinion on whether or not we should do something here and will that not kind of lead us potentially into a war that you know today i think we all you know or many people would say strategically doesn't make sense economically doesn't make sense you know we're only going to lead to kind of escalation but don't you think that american opinion typically changes when imagery arises when you know the sort of brutality of war well i mean

that's why out of some wars and we have in the past yeah but even today it's like the first day and there's like these really gruesome awful photos coming out and i i could see people getting sympathetic to that and starting to kind of you know bang the the wardrobe saying this is ridiculous we can't let this tyrant do this it's awful well it's already it's already happening you know but this is why we should not conduct foreign policy by twitter we should not twitterize the situation yeah this is when this is when cooler heads need to prevail the fact of the matter is when soviet tanks they rolled into hungary in 1956 or czech

slovakia in 1968 to cross the frog spring or poland in 1981 across solidarity we did nothing because avoiding war with the soviet union was more important even though we sympathize with those people and in 2008 we've been in this situation before 2008 georgia the republic of georgia putin invaded on behalf of these breakaway russian sort of dissident uh provinces south of city and abkhazia why did that happen well if you remember back in 2008 there was a lot of talk about georgia joining nato and you had you know the warhawk senator john mccain go over there and declare we're all georgians now and so

what happened all of a sudden these breakaway provinces the russified provinces of south africa and abkhazia started rebelling that gave putin the excuse to roll in there and the tanks a year later he left but there was no more talk of georgia joining nato so and again we george w bush was present at the time we did nothing militarily we just sent humanitarian assistance that was it so we've been in this situation before we should not i keep hearing in the media on cable news and on twitter this is historically unprecedented we must act no we've been in this situation before in 2008 and all those previous times we were in

the situation in 2014 when putin invaded let me ask you a question zach um we we had this concept of hey maybe if we said hey we won't admit them into nato and uh do you think that if we had actually made that concession or said we're not going to let them into nato for a decade or whatever do you think that would have changed putin's behavior yes or no well it's honestly it's hard to know i mean i can't i can't prove a counter factual however i think it was tragic not to try okay i do think i think i think it should be the goal of diplomats sure to try and again as i said on a previous pod it was the sleeves off our vest ukraine is not going to be a member of nato so to give

that up would have was basically giving them nothing it was almost meaningless to us and instead of making that concession what happened lincoln came out with this statement nato's door is open and will remain open it was perhaps the most provocative thing he could have said in that situation and they they would have been voted in that would have happened wouldn't have happened anyway let me ask you this question you've been complaining about the media and democrats uh banging the drum of war and you're saying they're more hawkish on the other side of the table you have uh trump came out and said that putin's

move on the ukraine is genius and the guy is very savvy and then you have pompeo saying i have enormous respect for him and that he's a very talented statesman has lots of gifts and he knows how to use power we should respect that so your party uh your crew is praising putin do you think the praising of putin is wise in this kind of situation no look here's what's going on first of all the the warhawks and the people beating the drums of war is happening on both sides of the aisle and on both both both sets of cable news i was watching fox last night and they were all but you know cheerleading for war basically saying we have to go on

it i watched it too yeah it's crazy we're saying we have to go on offense that what is biden doing saying that we're not going to intervene militarily i'm like watching these people who are acting you know it reminded me of um dr strangelove where you have slim pickens the cowboy riding the atomic bomb on the way down they were excited and i'm watching the cable news and all these people are acting this way and i'm like what in the world is going on you know it's it's all this is a big part of what i tried to point out our prediction show at the end of last year you know the the if a country is happy if the economy is

growing if there isn't significant risk of inflation no one wants to go to war when those are not the case there's a tendency to say we gotta do something and if you don't you're anxious and if you don't have anything to do and some conflict arises that's a good place to kind of apply your energy and your pressure let me bring the dictator himself into this chamatha you've been silent thus far uh any thoughts on what we're seeing here i was letting the proletariat speak okay are you the bourgeoisie or what that sweater is very bourgeois i have to say i mean i mean sweater karen right now he is drafting she's multiple emails she's melting she's melting i think

they're going to be a gofundme to revoke that sweater from you what is the story with that sweater that's what that's what trudeau trudeau trudeau will reinvoke in a state of emergency to stop that yes they go fund me i mean this feels like we're processing this chamath so quickly that the ukraine just asked on twitter today for everybody to tell at russia how they feel about what they're doing and the ukraine this is happening in real time is tweeting memes now about putin uh this seems almost surreal and is getting very strange in terms of

how we're interpreting it i mean is there an off-ramp here are we just gonna have to deal with putin doing this every number of years and this is just going to be you know a year or two of you know conflict i don't know but here's what's important to um two points one is the economic sanctions have begun and the economic damage to russia i've been starting to be infected right i think germany basically suspended the certification of north stream that has a huge economic impact to russia right i think the ruble against the dollar was off nine or ten percent this morning um when i woke up here in europe so it slows down even more

so um now the interesting thing about that was that i've read an article in the wall street journal maybe nick you can dig this up but this is a few years ago uh preceding this russia had built massive amounts of us dollar reserves in fact they had been depleted over like the last little crisis that they went through and then they had rebuilt all these dollar reserves so in some ways it may have been the case that these guys had this plan all along and they put some you know they built up their bank accounts just in case because they knew that this would happen the other thing is there's a quote from hr mcmaster he said that deterrence is a simple equation it's it's the product of will

and capability right will times capabilities and so you know if you're going to be a deterrent on the world stage militarily not only do you have to have an incredible military capability you also have to have the will to go to wars but and i think in america you know what feedback said is i think if you pulled a lot of people um you know people are pretty exhausted after all of these different conflicts and so i'm not sure that the will is there to go to europe and so the best off ramp is to try to find some amount of uh economic pressure points and then to negotiate some sort of you know

release valve from all of that economic pressure in return for some normalization babe i think that's really the best chance you know i have to be honest with you when i was thinking about the odds of this just from a financial perspective and you know whether i should be doing something different or putting something on i thought that there was zero chance that this would happen literally i put it as close to zero as possible because i thought in 2022 it just didn't seem like this could be possible and here we are and it seems like it is um i hope everybody in ukraine is safe but i think that biden's going to announce some pretty crippling

sanctuaries and i think the west is going to be very punitive financially um and that's probably awkward but it depends on it depends how long about the suffer last because again like i said i think russia's foreign currency reserves are pretty strong going into this council let me let me then uh pass the ball to you sax there's there's going to be a lot of people who are going to die both russians and ukrainians sadly if this thing keeps escalating uh there's a hundred ninety thousand russian troops on the border or making their way into the ukraine is there an off-ramp here in your mind in any way do you think the

sanctions will work and and god these the the poor citizens of russia i mean are they going to crack at some point and is this going to blow back onto uh putin because what did they seem to get out of this i guess is a question do the russian people support this and will they support it on an extended basis well okay so there's a few questions there yeah okay so the the fact of the matter is so so i think you're right that putin has bought himself a headache here right i mean the the the eastern parts of ukraine that are you know ethnically russian the areas of the dawn bass they will those people will support

him but the western part of ukraine that wants to be free that's not ethnically russian that is going to be a headache for him to manage i don't think he wants this problem long term it's probably going to be more like the situation we had in georgia in 2008 he goes in for a year he institutes perhaps some sort of puppet government or some government that's more favorable to him and then he gets out properly this is if there's no escalation i think it's very important i keep making this point the most important thing biden can do is to make sure that this does not

escalate militarily and that we do not get militarily involved i think sanctions will happen i mean that's pretty clear probably we have to move forward with that but but at the same time it will sanctions work in terms of being a strong deterrent no i don't think so there was a very good article by neil ferguson and ken griffin actually in the wall street journal talking about what we should do they made the point that sanctions don't usually work however what we should really be striving for is energy independence so 100 so yes but the crazy thing is america despite having these huge uh natural gas reserves seven percent of our natural

gas is coming from russia right now so why because we stopped fracking we stopped the you know biden cancel the keystone pipeline and then in europe the situation is even worse which is they're completely dependent on on russian natural gas germans are and the uk not france the op-ed made the point that we could be investing in liquefying natural gas and exporting it to europe to create more energy independence and that would remove their dependency on putin that energy independence here problem with energy independence is it takes too long and we went through a massive capital under investment cycle over the last six or seven years and so

you know in order to start this up you need to have started actually putting money in the ground six or seven years and the problem today is if we put money into the ground now that's not going to yield any sort of return on investor capital for another six or seven years and so when you look at these mad gas companies every single one to a name has basically said we are not going to put every any incremental capital into u.s domestic net gas or shale or even offshore the real solution is to actually go fully alternative and to go to renewable energy because you can today right uh deploy solar vastly more aggressively in

the united states look at the end of the day the thing that is completely abundant and has the best implications all around is solar and it's gotten cheaper than coal and and and and ask yourself like why why are we only three percent penetrated in the united states right we can manufacture these panels we can deploy them broadly right now you know we're in this situation where california is actually revisiting the itc credit or the the net metering laws sorry rather which would have huge implications for the california solar market it could actually destroy that whole market and so you know we have to get really organized david to your point but there

is a path to energy independence i think it's alternative energy it's wind and solar um because we can do it today and you can do it really quickly and you can basically leapfrog the entire capital investment cycle that you need to do for netcast we've already missed the training well and also you could have germany can start turning back on nuclear power plants if they could get their citizens to pick nuclear over war and that seems like a pretty easy choice it takes too long they've recently returned there's one year no they've been doing it for 20 years they've been turning them off for 20 years i know they could they that means

they don't have to rebuild them they could just turn them back on you that which is it's not switch jason no but that's not how it works it's not a light switch but it's not the same as building a new one in the us that's the point they could help them back it's still year it's still years between these things but you got to think chamath the threat of doing it would terrorize the saudis and the russians if all of a sudden the eu said we are going to go massive solar massive nuclear and we're going to be energy independent just a threat dramatic effect i'm not sure any country is going to is going to really uh all have a massive

reaction to any other country talking about a multi-year investment cycle i do think jason to your point solar is not a multi-year investment cycle it can literally happen in months yes and so that is much more disruptive so for example you could if you took three trillion dollars of buildback better and instead said you know what we're just going to actually put solar everywhere everywhere that would be you take three trillion dollars of solar and you put it literally everywhere in the united states i think everybody would support it you would have domestic job creation like nobody's business you would take so much carbon out of the air and you don't

need to go to war enormous energy dependence well it would give you a degree of freedom so that the next time you're pushed to war you can actually evaluate it under very different um you know risk calculus than if you actually need the energy from the country to the point yeah that's the point and just for um a fact check here nuclear power in germany accounted for 13.3 percent of german electrical supply in 2021 uh france by the way 70 80 um and that was generated by six power plant of which three were switched off at the end of 2021 they literally just turned these off and the other three i know but the

decision was not made yesterday jason my point is this is these are 20-year decisions no it was fukushima that pushed them actually in the sentiment of and they also had 70 percent of their electricity on a couple of weeks come from renewables so the germans suddenly thought that they didn't live in a shady area and they could get by with just solar which was a big mistake uh this turning these off germany if they didn't turn these off they would have a different approach here too you could be sure of that so like i'm a fan of solar but i'll just make the point that natural gas burns from a climate standpoint it burns much cleaner than

oil and oil burns much cleaner than coal so natural gas is a way better than a lot of the alternatives and the main problem with it is that when you frack you can get the release of water well that but that's in the ground but in terms of the release of methane which is a greenhouse gas that's actually worse than co2 and so you can actually get you know methane release but in the us we have techniques for recapture of it whereas i don't think russia cares about that so we'd be a lot better off i think solar is part of the answer but i don't think we should be turning our backs on the

enormous reserves of natural gas that we have here in this country friedberg what are your thoughts you're hearing three of us talk about energy um give us your science boy uh super powers here and what what do you think is the clearest shot on goal here for energy independence as an option to war i'll just point out that the notion that there are countries that are jockeying or positioning to stop the train towards renewable alternatives for energy production this century uh the number of countries in that bucket are close to zero you know saudi arabia took saudi aramco public specifically so that

they under kind of mbs's strategic direction diversify away from uh you know the fossil fuel dependency of their economy and diversifying to other assets so they are going to sell down their equity interest in saudi aramco over time and invest in things you know they probably made their first bet and regret it with softbank but they'll probably make other bets to try and invest in kind of next-gen uh industries and so you know if you look at the money that's going from even exxon and you know there's a guy locally here in san francisco who ran a very significant uh board proxy fight to get on the board of exxon and he won

and he's jockeying for continued and increased investment from an r d perspective in renewables and alternatives and we're seeing this across the board there's going to be in the next couple years if not already many of these fossil fuel dependent businesses and countries have or are making a massive shift towards alternative renewable sources of energy so i don't think that there's any enemy here there's no evil like all the folks that have been dependent on in the past are aware of the fact that this is not where the future is we do have to transition so the reason i bought energy stocks in december and the reason i made

this point was threefold one is because we have as a result of this general consensus view underinvested in energy infrastructure and the demands that are going to come out of the ex covet economic growth cycle cannot be met with the current energy infrastructure and you're going to see energy prices continue to climb coupled with the fact that when war or conflict arises typically you see stockpiling and you see trade routes being shut down and you see energy prices climb and so i you know i think generally we're in a little bit of a transitionary state everyone knows where the puck needs to be everyone's headed there but for now i think everyone's trying to

navigate how do we get through the next couple of years and in this particular year you know get through the season of uncertainty you know how fast is the economy growing how much have we actually under invested in infrastructure and how much renewables do we have coming online now i think the right answer if i were to be president of the world i would immediately deregulate uh nuclear um and make nuclear fission reactors a mainstay of energy production here in the u.s and i think that there are a number of techniques we could undertake for a safer building without all the regulatory cycles and process needed to get these

things stood up you know china as i've mentioned in the past is over the next 30 years committed to building check this number out i think we talked about this 140 nuclear power stations their estimated cost i believe is on the 3 billion per station range they are going to increase their total energy production capacity with these nuclear power stations um on the order of 15 to 20 percent so they will take coal offline as they bring those online or they will kind of start to have a cleaner mix of energy rather than building a next-gen infrastructure so um you know if we as the united states intend to be an economic challenge to

china this century if we intend to compete effectively with them we are going to have a really hard time with energy prices being what they are here in this country china is already 30 to 40 cheaper than us on an industrial scale basis with their current energy infrastructure and when their nuclear comes online over the next decade their prices are going to drop even further nuclear should be in the four to five cent per kilowatt hour range today china's in the kind of you know uh seven to eight cent per kilowatt hour range the us for industrial i think is in kind of a 9 10 range 8 to 10 cent depending on where you look so you know they're already cheaper they're gonna get even

cheaper and so not just from like what's the right transition from a security point of view but energy is going to be so critical in this next century for us to maintain our footing as a competitor to china particularly as think about this for a second if automation is the future of manufacturing then electricity and energy ends up being the biggest cost driver for those systems and if our if everything is on parity and everyone's got the same automation systems whoever's got the cheaper energy wins and to dovetail you and champs both positions a friend of ours said hey you know nobody wants to live near nuclear power plants and they've already got the grid going there

because it has to be there surround the nuclear power plant with a solar farm because it's the most efficient way so actually pairing these two things perhaps even with some batteries solves the entire problem and what do we think sax is the eventuality here in terms of the relationship between russia and china now that we've wrapped up the energy and then you know or all of us i think don't want to go to war here um so i guess there's two questions here of escalation and i'll i'll let you pick which one you want to go for escalation with taiwan or does uh if putin is not held if we don't hold

the line here you know putin picks another country to uh or another region to go after in 2023 2024 at what point do you say we got to hold the line well i mean i think the line is we have existing nato treaty obligations to protect the members of nato under article five we have to come to their defense ukraine is not one georgia is not one so to me that's the line or is our existing treaty obligations and this is why we should not want to add some of these countries to nato is because it involves us in their disputes and drags us into war you know on twitter all i hear is that this is 1938 all over again and we cannot

appease a dictator and that is one lesson of history it's an important lesson however there are other lessons of history and it seems to me that the situation we're in could be more like 1914 which is world war one what happened in world war one basically conflicts between minor powers dragged major powers into wars and basically germany gave uh austria the so-called blank check war guarantee and then that led to a war with russia and then that dragged the uh you know britain and france and eventually the united states so you know it was a case where nobody none of these powers wanted to be in a war with each other and yet somehow

inertia and threats and escalations and miscalculations and folly all sort of tumbled their way into it and that i think may be the historical precedent here that we want to avoid i think we need to be very careful not to let you know every conflict all over the world drag us into these these types of wars and disputes sex do you think um american primacy is coming to an end i hope not but if if our goal is to preserve american primacy which i think it should be then we need to be smart about how we use our strength and we don't want to fritter it away and what have been doing for the last 20 years frittering away

our strength in wars we didn't need to be in in the middle east we spent how many trillions on nation building there that turned out to be a total folly and waste of money uh look at this and we have a 30 trillion dollar national debt if we want this century to be an american century like the last one we need to preserve our strength and use it wisely and not involve ourselves in every conflict and um you know so look we need to protect our nato allies i agree with that but we don't need to be creating disputes and involving ourselves in wars that we have no obligation to get involved in we need energy independence and then we need to deliver our balance sheet in

order for american prime minister and it's possible but it's going to require a lot of focus and sacrifice i really think this thing that i just made up that is actually really quite genius which is redirect that three trillion dollar build that better build to just pure solar everywhere in the united states it would be so disruptive i mean it would just be so disruptive for everybody it becomes a dividend it's like it's ubi in a way everybody gets no electrical bill i i don't think it would allow people to have free electricity forever but i do think it would subsidize

basically the deployment of energy infrastructure to every single household in america in a way that would just completely shake up uh frankly the political world order because you know what you guys said is so true a lot of this stuff rests on you know the politics around natural resources right so you know today it's oil um tomorrow it's going to be some rare earth you know in 10 years it could be copper and lithium and we want to find ourselves with the ability to be clear tied and focused in our response to these issues but if we need critical resources that can only come from one other place or two other

places and we don't have the engineering ingenuity to have figured out how to you know de-lever our reliance then we're going to get dragged into not just this conflict but a whole bunch of other conflicts going forward i'd say yes and we could be energy independent for free right now if we were just to repeal some of these executive orders i mean we were energy independent like a year or two ago until we banned fracking why why do the fracking when solar is available it seems to me like we want to actually preserve the environment stop global warming so if solar is available and nuclear is available why would you

advocate for fracking and ripping up the earth and you know polluting it i'm a fan of solar it's really just about costs and time to deployment got it okay so you see it as a bridge hey maybe we do it for five years ten years long term i think solar is the answer but i think that's a long-term strategy the other thing that is confounding is like americans and this is another thing i was just watching the media and i did exactly what you did david as i put on fox i was like let me get their interpretation of this because the trump folks are praising putin and then these guys are wanting to go to war so it feels like there's some inner conflict or civil war going on in

the republican side of things but even on the there is yeah and then on the left you have this craziness uh they were i mean wolf blitzer and everybody was so excited about this war they were like stay tuned and oh my god we're gonna be 24 hour coverage they were like orgasmic in in their coverage remember cnn got their got their big um yeah before with the gulf war that was it well it was that was your chance to shine i remember being a kid watching that that is the language free break essentially that was the language they were using so don lemon was saying and we have the full resources to give

you blow-by-blow coverage of everything happening stick with cnn this is where we do our best work and it was literally like war porn and it was really uncomfortable to watch combined with sax and this is what i wanted well maybe free break i'll throw this one to you they kept talking about how americans were going to suffer at the pump and i just thought this is so crazy and disturbing there's 190 000 young russian men who are going to die countless ukrainian seville civilians who are going to die potentially and this thing could escalate asak said you know you you can't play games with war he could the

dominoes can fall in all directions you have no idea when you light off these grenades and and we're talking about our pain at the pump very weird very weird times freeburg any thoughts america's weird it's weird well i want to if if freebird doesn't want to respond to that i want to talk about the media coverage i'll add to that i mean yeah you flip over to msnbc john bolton is on msnbc and one of the weirdest things happening in our politics now is that all the neocons who used to be members of the republican party who worked for george w bush and got us into the iraq war have now all become democrats and they're all over

there they're supposedly the the conscience of the country over on cnn and msnbc and beating the drums of war it's absolutely unbelievable and one of the the um one of the tactics they use that i think we should talk about is and this goes all the way back to the vietnam war is that anybody who merely tries to let's say understand the other side or wants to de-escalate or get out of a conflict they try to portray as unpatriotic i mean this again this goes all the way back to the vietnam war where the vietnam protesters were portrayed as un-american and unpatriotic well it turns out they were right that was a mistake for us to get embroiled in vietnam and similarly the iraq war it

turns out that was a gigantic mistake but in 2003 david frum who's like one of the leaders of this group wrote an article called unpatriotic conservatives in which he attacked and sort of mao mao the there were you know conservatives like pat buchanan and robert novak who were against the iraq war and he called them unpatriotic and imply that they were unamerican because and somehow in the pocket of saddam hussein because they were against us our involvement in the iraq war will they turn right they turned out to be right and yet they were demonized and called unpatriotic and where are we today those same people i'm seeing david from on twitter now impune

the patriotism of people who merely want us not to escalate this not to get involved and maybe to try and understand our enemy because i mean this is one of the problems with twitterizing our foreign policy is look we can see putin as an aggressor we can see him as a thug or an authoritarian or as a dictator but nonetheless we should still try and understand our enemy and anybody who tries to promote a greater degree of understanding or diplomacy gets attacked by these people as being putin apologists tremothy you said you didn't see this coming you thought this is a very small probability i think we all felt it was a

pretty small probability that russia would actually go through this you thought it was actually something actually i do freebird you did think it was going to happen there's a certainty yeah wait you there was a certainty that america would get involved because of the wag the dog scenario or that putin would do it because both putin's okay yeah but this is not like a surprise that putin did this i mean this has been a long time coming yeah i mean it just felt like i i i thought that he would save a rattle and we come to some resolution here but what does he want it seems like nobody and and this is what everybody keeps saying i think that's really by the way i think that's a

really complicated question i i feel like there's decades of and layers of like um to the story it's like you know war and peace and then you read like one half of the final chapter and you're like oh yeah okay like there's a lot to the story that's going to be really hard for us to unpack um so you know i'm not sure there's a very simple like what does putin want as much as there is a significant narrative that that backs the history you know post-soviet history with ukraine and the relationships i mean you guys may remember that there was a president

a presidential candidate or president that was poisoned by putin at some point i mean there's been like a long history to this that i don't think is something that we can reunification is what most people would put that under is this there's economic there are social you know there are individuals cultural um motives i mean there's a lot driving this there's a lot of influence within that country that i don't think we really fully grasp within the country of russia i mean that we don't fully grasp related to some of the uh cultural relationships with some of the population in the ukraine and so you know it's a very difficult question to simply answer

can i take a shot at it yeah sure okay what does putin want so i want to there's an article by peter uh bainard who was an editor of the new republic he's not you know some far-right conservative or whatever he published this uh quotes from a memo that was written by bill burns back in 2008 so bill burns is the current dci he's the director of central intelligence the head of the cia he is also a russian expert he speaks russian fluently he is the he and he spent uh many years over there in our government and he works for biden he's biden's head of the cia so he is the highest ranking russian expert in our government in 2008 he wrote a memo

to condoleezza rice who was then the secretary of state and what he said is this is about ukrainian entry to nato he said ukrainian entry into nato is the brightest of all red lines for the russian elite not just putin he says in more than two and a half years of conversations with key russian players from knuckle draggers and the dark recesses of the kremlin to putin's sharpest liberal critics i have yet to find anyone who views ukraine and nato as anything other than a direct challenge to russian interests so burns pointed out to the then secretary of state that this was a huge red line and since then since 2008 putin has been very consistent that ukrainian entry

into nato has been a red line and even in the speech that he gave last week he talked about uh he talked about this and he said that i'm quoting putin from his speech he says if ukraine was to join nato it would serve as a direct threat to the security of russia so you know in response to putin's speech and on twitter i keep hearing that putin is this madman we can't understand what he wants that the only possible explanation for his behavior is either senility he's gone crazy he's gone mad and you know i'm looking at this and i'm like okay maybe those things are true but you can't say that he hasn't been clear about what his red lines are he's

been saying this for 20 years that ukraine joining the nato alliance is an absolute red line and you know i mentioned before on this pod that imagine if the cold war was still going on and the warsaw pact still existed and you know justin trudeau was going to lead canada into the warsaw pact we would absolutely be up in arms about that we would not let that happen it is that kind of issue for putin and we just act like this guy is insane and has no point of view i'm not we don't have to believe he's right but to basically say that his he has no interest uh in russian security that we need to give any weight to that we just need to

dismiss all of his concerns out of hand it just you know this is not the history of the situation yeah did you read anybody read madeleine albright's um new york times piece it was pretty interesting because she was uh in the position when they first met him and he's been talking about the ukraine and reunification for 20 years and uh it's probably a good lesson for the entire planet uh that dictators are gonna you know they they have a certain to your point your mouth of like having will and capabilities a lot of people have capabilities a lot of people don't have will to start wars

anymore on this planet and and he clearly is in that group i think as hard as it is but jason we don't know here's the thing by not taking nato off the table as an issue we don't know whether his true aim here is the restoration of the russian empire or merely to avoid you know this border country being part of a military alliance that he views as a threat so i don't know what the answer is part or door number three he wants more attention he wants to be more globally relevant right but we made the mistake of not taking this issue off the table and so if we had taken the issue off the table then we could get to the real heart of the issue maybe it would have defused

the situation or the eu and nato had done it right it's not just us in this like the people in europe have a big say here as we're discussing this on on a thursday february 24th uh biden has announced a coalition of partners eu australia others are doing uh pretty uh significant sanctions it seems limiting uh russia's ability to do business in dollars euros and yen imposing major sanctions on the russian banks trying to the ruble blocking four major russian banks freezing all of their assets in america adding sanctions to russian elites i guess that's the oligarch class and russia's largest state-owned

enterprises will no longer be able to raise money from a coalition of governments biden assumes this will degrade their military advancement and i have a funny russian story to tell so um right when i was when i was still running when i was managing uh not just my money but other people's money and i was raising funds uh eventually you know you uh you get uh lp commitments um from all kinds of people interested in investing with you if you're generating great returns right meaning you know rich family offices all around the world want to give you capital and there's a very strict process in america where when you get capital in

um you have to make sure that those folks basically pass uh uh you know an anti-money laundering check and a know your customer kind of check kyc checks and one of these checks is actually a a gray list in a black list that treasury and the doj kind of manage um and every now and then they'll put people on and off the list and there's a very famous person in russia who i will not say when i was raising money for my last fund this was probably in 2014 or 15. he was on the um he was not on the list you know very well-known person and i thought wow this is a great opportunity to get somebody who seems to be doing a lot of really interesting good work and not less than two or three

weeks after we had signed our lp agreement uh i think it was doj or treasury put him on this list and we get a we get a you know an email basically saying hey tear up the lpa and uh you can't take the capital and we had to undo the entire uh limited partner agreement um crazy yeah what percentage of the fund would that person have been ballpark i i don't remember but he was he's a significant person investing in a significant 5 10 or something so i would guess yeah hey jason i just want to going back on a point i made about energy and energy independence sure um earlier because i actually pulled up the numbers so you know the average cost

per kilowatt hour uh in the uh in china right now it's about nine cents uh for um for energy production it is estimated uh that um nuclear power production should drop to about four cents but could be as low as one cent per kilowatt hour if operated at scale with perfect efficiency just to give everyone a sense of where um not just security risk and kind of you know the green opportunity lies but also where economic advantage lies uh in investing in nuclear infrastructure and so as china builds out 140 nuclear plants here over the next two to three decades they're going to see their

energy costs decline from about nine cents for industrial use potentially you know into the sub five cent per kilowatt hour range which makes them tremendously competitive uh on a manufacturing point of view it's a lot of bitcoin servers there's a lot of hash i think it's never going to happen um i'm not i love that nuclear i think america america's america's ability to scale nuclear i think is a very difficult proposition and i think our real solution is civil it's solar it's practical it can be done today and it can be done right now and just to look at the eu versus the us in terms of gas mileage uh which is just stunning the eu

has mandated america doesn't have the resolve it's like it's like we have to we have to cross so many bridges and you know we have to really confront a bunch of issues that we um that have been riddled with so much inaccuracy you know for example like the environmental impact the understanding of how nuclear energy works you know the nimby is in jason that you refer to about not being able to build these things all around the country and so reducing the form factor in my opinion is a technical challenge that i think we can overcome but it still leaves the policy and the societal level challenges that i think are very difficult to overcome because you're talking about

rewriting history in many ways and and convincing you know hundreds of millions of people that things that they had thought were true were no longer true and i think that's much much harder than we give it credit for and cars is a perfect example americans now were averaging 24 miles to the gallon the eu is mandated uh 57 miles per gallon in 2021 they're getting it done in the eu they're twice as effective i tweeted hey listen americans we we need to buy better gas mileage cars and move to evs and i was faced with quite a backlash i mean it was insane that's not entirely true because california did pass their own legislation yes and then there was this

issue because the car companies pushed back and said you know it's too expensive for us to build two different excuse one for california and one for the rest of america they're already building ones for the eu just to give you one counterpoint to your statement about energy independence arising potentially from solar to generate a gigawatt of capacity an industrial scale solar farm would take about 7 500 acres you know so that's about 30. i don't think that's how it's i don't think that's how it's done i i think a very simple solar installation in everybody's home with a simple battery is more than

enough to basically give people the power they need and then these big cni installations that's happening on top of all these big buildings will cover the rest and i think that you'll still have some amount of nat gas peakers usage um and maybe you can have some amount of solar or hydro or wind but people are experimenting and figuring out the battery storage capability to supplement this i think what we don't have is that at three percent residue solar we don't have a credible alternative but at you know eighty percent resi solar um with battery systems in everybody's home which is a tractable solution that cost

thousands of dollars per home which the government could subsidize would be a great use of capital i think would be transformational for energy it would completely rewrite the energy calculus so so again to do that today would cost because when you do something on a residential roof it costs a lot more than doing it on an industrial scale so when you build out a 7 500 acre solar facility you get economies of scale you get single tubes everything can run off one wire when you build it on a roof you need contractors to come in you got to wire the home you got to put batteries in so the actual amortized cost over the lifetime of that solar installation works out to something on the order of

15 cents a kilowatt hour whereas if you do it on an industrial scale it works out to about 3 cents a kilowatt hour so you know your point makes sense but it it it makes things more expensive so then the question is who's going to fund the delta and is someone actually going to pay for that delta yeah we're gonna we're gonna i'm sure i'm sure over the next few years we're gonna spend trillions and trillions of dollars on nothing those trillions and trillions of dollars could probably whatever your gap is i don't know whether your math is right or wrong but whatever the gap is that gets us to china as an example in terms of the cost per kilowatt hour

the government could substance and there is a quantifiable number and if we had if we decided whether it was worth it or not we could decide but all i'm saying is it's something that we need to put on the table because every time a new president comes into town and gets elected they generally get this one big shot on goal you know the last few presidents have tried to either you know cut taxes or basically give these massive um economic stimulus packages and the net dollar effect of these things is now measured in the trillions of dollars and i suspect that the net you know cost of subsidizing enough solar energy that you could have broadly

deployed is also in the trillions of dollars and we should just decide whether that is in the better use of our model all right just to do some quick math here um to uh booster tremolo's point he almost nailed it exactly there are 85 million standalone homes in the u.s java i'm just going to assume none of them for the sake of this argument have solar on them but three percent do i think um average cost of putting solar on homes 20 to 35 000. i picked the number 30 000. yes yes hold on a second but but in australia it costs 5000. okay they have a cheaper system or something no it's because of all the nonsense that exists

in the united states yeah so but just to give the raw cost here if it was thirty thousand dollars to put on you know you can do it you can do it for five thousand dollars for home because australia which is one-sixth the size of america is able to do it with no subsidies direct to the consumer for five thousand dollars in installation so that price is possible i'm going to pick the 30 000 crazy price in america 2.5 trillion dollars to put solar on every home the end like we're you know we're 30 yeah trillion dollars in debt 10 of our debt would make us energy independent forever

the the plan gets better when you do math sorry and think of you think of the amount of savings you do to the environment think of the lack i don't know if you saw this but there was a u.n report about the criticality and importance of emerging wildfire threats to our ecosystem and our ecology i don't you know for all of us that lived in california do you guys remember how the sky was orange and red two years ago crazy pictures from los angeles so if you if you have a have less of a reliance on these aging utilities and these utilities infrastructure there'll be less forest fires the air will be cleaner um people will be more resilient

think of the times that for example in texas where there was a massive freeze right where people were shut out of they couldn't have power because the actual traditional utilities were shut down if it's only two and a half trillion dollars i think we should have done this yesterday i can't believe the number is that low actually considering the things that when we put two and a half trillion dollar price tags on things then the cost of upgrading i'm just pulling some numbers here off of the internet but um replacing uh our electrical grid would be five trillion so if you think about the replacement cost of the

electric grid which we're going to have to do at some point and the upgrade cost of 500 billion a year or the maintenance of 500 billion a year this actually starts to seem very reasonable and achievable if we had the will which means we need to have some politicians who actually aren't in the pocket of bills the number of jobs that biden would create if he actually ran with this then and because you do need a lot of local installation capability and other jobs you would create hundreds of thousands maybe even millions of jobs in the united states they would be really well

paying um and you would be pushing us towards a completely energy independent clean energy you know uh zero carbon futures that'd be transformation yeah i wonder how many hours of work it is to install you could actually do that math as well and figure out how many jobs you create and then how much tax those people pay and then how much they spend of that money to put back into the economy you're probably getting a 30 40 rebate on that 2.5 trillion dollar so it becomes even better because of the high paying jobs all right the markets are tanking uh obviously over the last couple of months

dow is down 11 percent year to date and of course a lot of the growth socks we've talked about this over and over again from zoom to netflix facebook spotify coinbase twilio all down over fifty percent uh today the market went down five six percent on the news and then rebounded is this all priced in and is this the bottom of the market kathy wood is supposedly um buying and i don't know if it's net buying or she's just reallocating but uh are we now in the bargain hunting period of the market and and we've bottomed out the smart folks that i talk to who i really you know uh look up to and respect think that the bottom in the smp is around 3 800

and that what we still need to do is it's one last flush and that last flush will really touch the big cap um companies but that growth is largely um done sort of getting taken to the woodshed so in general i think that so generally buyers are broke now um sellers of value and waiting for this one last you know 400 point move down the s p and i think people think it's roughly the bottom now if there's a world war obviously who knows all that's wrong but um yeah so sax what's more shocking that we're almost at the bottom or there's people in the markets that chamoth really which is well speaking

speaking of people that we respect so i think uh brad gerson has a really interesting take on this which is that sorry i i should also be clear that i'm recruiting this one person who i really respect he knows who he is so they're poachable got it so uh brad gerson has published a couple of charts showing basically multiples in the internet index and among sas companies over the last whatever dozen years or so and what you can see is that over the last two years during covid there was a huge spike in multiples for internet companies and for sas companies and that over the last really since november last three four months has now come down and

as of i would say last week it was right at about the historical trend and now it's starting to go under the historical trends so from a bargain hunting standpoint you'd have to say that this is the first time that we've been below the the average um for a few years now that's not to say it can't go down even more because in the same way that you can be above trend you can also be below trend and if this war escalates and metastasizes it will go down more but if this conflict can stay localized um and the economy doesn't go into a recession because of everything that's happened then yes this might be bargain

hunting here's the chart for everybody to take a look at from january 20 to january 22 the two years of the pandemic and i think this is times forward-looking sales if i'm if i'm reading it correct i don't have the full chart here i just have a screenshot of it a portion of it yeah i think it's enterprise yeah it's enterprise value divided by like forward-looking revenue which is you've got to say it's like a r yeah it's sort of like ar it's like recording revenue um and so yeah we had this 15x we went up to 40 50x private market deals going at 100 200x those days are over big time

uh and uh it's we've talked about that ad nauseam one of the interesting things that i'm seeing is i think people are looking at businesses that have been corrected and uh saying hey what is the true value of this and the i think the best example is peloton new cfo the cfo netflix i gotta go all right i gotta go jacob i love you guys love you tomorrow and stay safe and enjoy your vacation cheers now so i just without chabot here just wanna talk a little bit have you guys watched what happened with peloton and the cfo coming in and just really revitalizing that business very quickly by the way jason i'll say one thing i think um

two weeks ago uh if you pulled the market they would probably have or if you looked at the the trading prices of bonds you probably would have assumed a 95 chance of a half point rate hike in march and as of today my guess is that the probability of that is below 5 and you're probably assuming you know um a quarter point rate hike or maybe even a deferral at this point and i think that's one of the things that's keeping the market up instead of tanking so much uh people are predicting that it's been such bad news that they'll push it out yeah they're assuming that under the conditions of

great uncertainty like this the fed cannot act as aggressively as they were planning to act interesting and as a result that that rate hike um would be pushed out and it would continue to kind of keep prices uh somewhat inflated and continue to support the market with cheaper uh capital and liquidity so you know a lot of uh capital around the world is going to get locked up as armed conflict kind of comes to bear and when that happens you know markets will tighten up and prices will be affected and so the fed in in traditional in typical times would want to have an incentive or would have a motivation to uh you know inject liquidity into the

markets um and so this is not a great time to do a half point rate hike and so it's almost certain at this point that they're not going to do a half point rate hike it feels to me like huge setup right now people have capitulated the market's gotten demolished i just think there's some these companies are still great like they're still great some great businesses out there and some great companies to invest in some great stocks to buy all the way from technology through to industrials uh through to um you know even some of the energy companies that are going to benefit greatly from this commodity cycle were were kind of in the middle of

um and so there's going to be you know um i think an opportunity to move away from uh speculative um behavior into real kind of cherry picking productive cash generating um businesses in the next um uh you know or or even growth businesses that are actual um you know value craters uh so versus being like 10-year speculative kind of bet so this is a great time to kind of be looking for businesses you really like to own uh to identify them to make investments and to hold those investments for a very long period of time uh you know you're not going to find a lot of market conditions like this i

mean if we all went back to march of 2020 and you remember the s p was like 2300. yeah i was going to buy disney i never got around to it yeah so like if at that point you pick businesses that you knew were going to be durable businesses and that you loved and you thought were going to have legs to them you bought everything from alphabet to disney to lockheed martin you know you could have done um tremendously well so now's a great time to kind of be looking for businesses that you really like and to buy a stake in them yeah forget forget about trying to time the bottom that's a fool's errand right no no if you want to buy stuff you want to hold for 10 years

things are relatively cheap relative to a time horizon like saks pointed out and um and gerda gerstner pointed out so things are relatively cheap find businesses you like to own and buy them cheap they could get cheaper but they're kind of at the bottom you know the whole i think the whole time frame around like speculative stuff is kind of wiped out like i think that that that that era is gone now what are you saying well it's it's that plus i think one of the things that happened is that people are realizing now that the burst of activity especially like in e-commerce type companies that happened during the

pandemic that was not ongoing sustainable growth it was one-time growth in fact in many cases it was sort of worse than one time growth which is it was pull forward growth meaning that growth in the future will be lower because you pulled forward all of that revenue well i think peloton might be a good example i mean yes everyone bought them during the pandemic but then after the pandemic everyone who needs one has got one already so it could also be cars right like people were desperate to buy cars and now there's not available right so what what happened is not only have multiples gone down but these

companies were being comped based on growth rates that were unsustainable and so now they're all revising their forecasts down so it's the double whammy and brad's made this point but what's interesting right now is the markets are actually rallying and um i think it might be because of this latest biden news at this press conference so the important point here is that biden did not sanction putin directly there was talk about sanctioning him personally or and he also did not remove russia from the swift uh system which like sort of the key banking system and i don't know if this is because biden doesn't want to do it or because

europe won't support the move pretty clear europe doesn't want to do it so no one is willing to suffer too much economic loss here to defend ukraine never mind sending troops so it seems to me that the signal here is that um both militarily and in terms of economic interest europe does not want further escalation and that may be why the market is rallying also the fed may hold off on interest rate increases while this is all going on so you know sometimes markets can act in funny ways well they're forward-looking people are putting money at stake so they have skin in the game so it's you know the the people can talk

all they want about um what's going to happen with the markets but unless they're placing bets that's kind of cheap talk and here people are actually placing bets on socks they think will do well in the future skin of the game people look their economic interests are skin of the game having people's sons and daughters go off to fight and die in some foreign war that is real skin in the game what is not skin to the game is people tweeting you know their moral outrage and condemnation and whipping things up and you know we should not be listening to them calling everyone who disagrees with them traitors because that's happening too

you know this is a time for cooler heads to prevail all right you and i are going to actually agree on this uh and we're both going to agree that trump and pompeo should not be fawning over putin uh yeah but you've never commented on that people want to hear well i mean you can't support them fawning over putin like that you do you i can't imagine you look i i heard i heard what what trump said when he was saying i didn't hear the pompeo quote so i can't speak to that it's just saying is a genius look listen you know sometimes trump is being

sarcastic when he says things like oh what a beauty you know um he means the opposite and i think the point trump was making wasn't really about putin being so great the point i heard trump making was that if he were president this wouldn't be happening now you can disagree with that it may be true or untrue but that was the real point he was making i think that you're letting you know the political partisans try to whip this thing up and it's part again it's part of this meme of anybody who doesn't support what i want must be a traitor it must be in the pocket of true putin we have to use this meme warfare to get people free berg

to shame these politicians into backing like the solar plan and doing something meaningful like this like and backing nuclear how do we get the politicians to reflect energy independence as a priority it feels like it's not a priority for them well i mean the one one of the good things about american democracy is that politicians are generally pretty responsive to what their constituents want and believe so they use polling data and that polling data drives you know if they want to get reelected they better do what the polls are telling them people want them to do and so ultimately if you can kind of

influence people broadly in the united states uh and that can that can go both ways by the way we have special interests too and you have people with weird ideas right like yeah but generally like if something is deeply unpopular a politician risks not getting reelected they're not gonna kind of run to do that and if something is very popular even though it may not be the right thing by some objective framework uh you know they would still run to do that so you know i do think that there's you know some degree of uh of work to be done around you know framing for people

broadly you know via the work maybe that we do on our podcast but i think more importantly on a repeated way and in a way that's kind of inspiring and inclusive will drive people to kind of want to see these changes happen and ultimately politicians should respond can i make one other point to you to your thing about um you know who who today would be considered you know in the words of gempasaki parroting russian talking points barack obama if obama today were out there saying exactly what he told the the atlantic magazine back in i think it was 2012 or 14 if he was saying that today he'd be accused of being in

putin's pocket and being a putin apologist and a traitor and all this kind of stuff because he said that in that interview he said listen putin was always very businesslike he was punctual he showed up he wanted to negotiate and deal basically he sounded like a guy who look we may disagree with him about everything but he wasn't a madman he was someone you could a rational actor he was a coldly ruthless but rational actor and that's basically what obama said he's someone you could talk turkey with and if you say that today that hey maybe we could negotiate our way out of this with putin

you're accused of being you know uh a puppet of his yeah the concept of starting a war uh in this day and age is just it's crazy like it is crazy that he's starting this war and putting all these people at risk and we don't even know what the goal is you guys he's not even asked for anything like what is he exactly asking for so he may not be he may have been rational then or maybe obama was trying to steer him towards rationality and praising him publicly to get that more rational putin to show up this feels like irrational that we don't know what his goal is like the fact that the world can't say if we gave him x he would do y is i think his strategy putin's always

like to be this like unpredictable madman right no i mean we just said that he's a coldly ruthless rational actor that's sort of the opposite of a madman i mean his red lines have been clear he's been stating them for for years um that the problem is that again we're conducting i'm referring him to murdering opponents of his and oh there's no question that he's ruthless he's an authoritarian call him a dictator if you want i've tweeted in support of alexey navalny yeah so i get it but that doesn't mean he's a madman he has desires and interests and it's the job of diplomats to figure out how to conduct diplomacy and negotiation

with people you disagree with and one of the problems we have today is again we've twitterized everything so you know we basically figure out the first step is who are the people who should be canceled you know who's wearing the white hat who's wearing the black hat let's all rise up and virtue signal and moral denunciation and you know stick our fingers in our ears and not listen to the other side and um and listen that that is a way to find yourself in greater conflicts not avoid them yeah all right so just wrapping up here let's uh let's wrap with sax's favorite part of the show sax's favorite moment where he's super

engaged in learning he's got his thinking cap on he's taking notes and that is the science corner no not what about vendetta corner i thought you're gonna say vendetta corner yeah i don't want to hear that recorder this is the other quarter is actually my favorite part of the show it is now people love indeed a corner in the twitter community spaces who you horse twitter loves it because twitter is all about vendettas but i have no vendettas this week what are you doing with your time yeah i'm trying to advocate that this is time for cooler heads prevail and so um oh for sake start a fight with somebody aren't you fighting with paul

graham there's nobody here you're you and jake are you guys taking the week off for ski week i don't think we're fighting over anything it's not i can't not that i can think of all right for the dictator trump paulie hapatia sultan of science david friedberg and the rain man himself david sacks i'm jay cal and we'll see you all at the all in summit in may 15 16 17. you can go to the website summit.all in podcast.com where you just type all in summit the all-in summit into google and find it may 15th to 17th in miami florida we're doing it at the new world symphony and we have a page there where you can vote on speakers

it's gonna be three days of fun we have a scholarship there if you can't afford the regular ticket and uh you can apply for a scholarship if you're a super fan and we'll look forward to seeing you there and go vote for some speakers bye bye love you [Music] source it to the besties and they've just gone crazy [Music] it's like this like sexual tension that they just [Music] we need to get back [Music] i'm going on [Music]