#AIS: Antonio Garcia Martinez & Glenn Greenwald debate Ukraine, moderated by David Sacks

all right this segment is on ukraine and we've uh we're calling the ukraine debate because we have two great writers and thinkers up here who are on slightly different sides of this issue of the us involvement in ukraine antonio garcia martinez writes is the author of the best-selling book chaos monkey is about silicon valley he writes a sub-stack called pull request and also has a great call-in show and glenn greenwald is uh glenn greenwald is back with us uh from yesterday uh also a phenomenal writer has a uh amazing sub stack all of you guys should check out as well and a great call-in show um

so in in setting up this topic let me just say i think you know that um you know in thinking about the us involvement in ukraine um you know there's not a lot of debate about this topic and in that sense it's pretty similar to other wars that the us has gotten into many of you probably are not old enough to remember when the u.s got into iraq or afghanistan and i'm not old enough to remember the us getting into vietnam but the thing to understand about all those wars is that they were incredibly popular at the time that we entered them and by the time that they ended they were not

and now i'm not saying i'm not prejudging ukraine and saying it's one of those i think there's important differences that we should get into but i think we should at least have this debate and we need more discussion around this and so for that i'm grateful that antonio and glenn decide to participate [Music] so what i'm going to do is kick it to each of them for kind of five minute opening statements and then we'll just get into sort of more of a back and forth and we'll start with antonio cool thanks thanks david uh thanks for skewing the moderation from like literally the first second comparing it

to a rock because i come up here to say it's not about a rock at all um but um yeah so let's just start off with i think probably most people here know that i actually spent some time in ukraine um unlike a lot of the independent voices um who decided to opine from afar about ukraine i i felt that the american media discourse about ukraine was completely skewed and it just smelled kind of bullshitted to me and so i thought i had to go and actually see it and so i spent some time on the polish border with ukraine uh this was kind of in the earliest part of the war kind of early march and the western part of ukraine which by the way is not particularly

dangerous or anything is probably no more dangerous than walking across san francisco these days to be honest um but it was interesting to actually go and see and i took away two things i wrote two subset post about it that i want to share with you two parts of the ukraine story one the refugee situation is incredible it is something that you have to see to believe and even then you can't quite understand the scope of it 10 million ukrainians fully a quarter of the country is currently displaced something like six million ukrainians have left in the span of two months when you stand at the border at um medica which is one of the the border

crossings with poland what you see is you're you're at it and you realize you're at the fringes of sort of normal you know western european life and you've entered on the other side of that is hell that people are escaping and what do you see you see again the men can't leave because they're prohibited from leaving because they're because they have to fight and so you see is old people or women with children imagine a woman in her 30s with two kids a little rolly bag and like a cat in a bag like that's the typical thing and just a line of them going over the border again and again and again right and the polls have been amazing and how they receive the ukrainians

literally millions of ukrainians but all the same it's an enormous strain everywhere you go in eastern poland or western ukraine that's a big open area is basically a refugee camp whether it be a train station repurposed warehouses all of it the human situation is just kind of mind-boggling the other thing i'd like to share i crossed the border it was weird crossing the border there's this line of people looking to leave and there's like you with my little starlink and my little bag and my little body armor like walking across the other way because you can't take cars across everyone walks across and everyone's looking at me like i'm crazy

because why are you walking in the other direction bro and so anyway i walked in the other direction had a driver pick me up experienced a little bit of western ukraine for for a few days and i experience what i think probably nobody here has experienced directly which is total war right a society that's completely and totally mobilized to repel a foreign invader right i was in a city called la viv which is one of the western cities that sort of free ukraine and everything there is either men and weapons and trucks going east or women and children and refugees going west that's all you would see that's all that would happen there and all of society

from the interpreter i had because unfortunately i speak no ukrainian to the driver who would drive me around to the hacker interviewer who was like ddosing russian websites all of them would punctuate their statements with we will win right and that's when i realized that the big mistake that everyone had made i think particularly in the u.s discourse is underrating ukrainian resolve and their zeal for their own nationalist project right after after spending a day there and again remember this is the relatively early days of the war keeve is still encircled it wasn't clear if they were if the belarusians would start a western front

it was all still up in the air but i was starting to think you know i i don't see how the russians win this like this just seems impossible ukraine is the size of texas it has a population of 40 million people roughly the size i imagine the russians showing up with 200 000 soldiers and trying to control california it's going to be very difficult to do particularly when literally everybody is staring at you and saying we will win which is what what happened and that's when i realized that this whole story was very different than it's being projected in the united

states and that's i felt um i felt vindicated and going because i think there aren't that many american journalists there and i think a lot of the discourse in the u.s tends to skew towards iraq or towards projection of american political domestic neuroses and not the facts on the ground in ukraine in which you have devastated cities you have women and children refugees you have literally a total war situation that the western world hasn't seen since world war ii that's the reality of ukraine and what i hope to debate here all right thank you glenn great so i certainly have respect for anyone's decision to go actually see a

place that you want to talk about i think that there is though a question of how much you can actually learn about a country of 44 million people with an incredibly complex history with extreme diversity of thought in terms of the population by going for whatever it is a week or 10 days to a kind of sliver of that country that has extremely different views than another region for example if in 2003 you wanted to go before the war in iraq and figure out what iraqis thought if you went to the kurdish regions of iraq you would hear nothing but i want the united states to come and liberate us from salaam hussein if you went to the sunni triangle you would hear if you come if

the united states comes here we're going to make this a graveyard of of americans and and similarly if you go to western ukraine of course you're going to hear we want american help we want to fight the russians to the end if you go to the eastern up regions of ukraine which are russian speaking who identify with moscow you're going to hear the exact opposite so i think you know it it's commendable to go to a country like ukraine i think we have to be humble about our ability to understand the thoughts of the population the reality on the ground when you go to

certain segments that you select um and that are almost likely to kind of feed back to you what it is that uh you're already expecting to hear the other thing i think is very important to note is that you know first of all i'm a little surprised by the idea that i guess it was implicit that antonio felt that the media narrative has been off or one-sided in the sense that it hasn't been favorable enough to the idea that ukraine is the victim that needs help and russia is the clear aggressor i can't remember ever reading an article on the mainstream press since the invasion that said anything other than that which is

why you know 80 percent of americans the entire bipartisan class in washington of both parties are essentially unified in support of the narrative that antonio believes in my opinion with great sincerity i think there's been if anything a kind of lack of dissent available in the united states on the other side and this is one thing i want to emphasize is there has been this claim this sort of implicit claim sometimes explicit claim that the entire war is united behind the united states behind ukraine against russia the reality is overwhelmingly the most of the world is in fact not united

behind the united states and then in a position on ukraine most of the global south 15 of the most of the 20 most populous countries on the planet either abstained or voted no when it came time to decide whether to expel russia from the human rights council and some of those countries are tyrannies many of them such as india the world's largest democracy brazil the second largest democracy after the united states um very much deviates from the re the the consensus in the united states and and sometimes i think if we're americans and we're living in a country in which we're bombarded with one message it's incumbent upon us to ask why it is that

so much of the rest of the world does not believe that the united states is participating in the war in ukraine with benevolent intentions or with the desire to protect democracy or protect against aggression when in fact the the rest of the world looks at the history of the united states not just distant but very recent and sees a country not devoted to protecting democracy but to propping up tyranny to fighting wars not to protect innocents but to sacrifice innocence in its own interests and so i think that's one really important thing is to make sure that we're looking at this war not as a

country that's essentially a belligerent in it but as a country that is just a small part of the rest of the world that has a lot of opinions the other thing i would point out is war in general is the worst thing that humanity can unleash upon itself there is no war that doesn't involve extreme amounts of atrocities extreme amounts of war crimes all kinds of hideous things and if you look at any war any war not just the ones that united states the united states adversaries have started but once the united states has started ones that the united states is allies have started that we support you're going to find enormous amounts of atrocities and any decent person

with any kind of a minimum moral compass who looks at any war like that is going to walk away horrified and disgusted and wanting to do something about it the only difference between what's happening in the war in ukraine and so many other wars is that the u.s media is constantly showing us images and stories about ukrainian victims as it should but think about the wars that the united states has itself started or is propping up like for example the war in yemen that has been going on for many years that is still going on because the united states is supplying saudi arabia not exactly a democracy with enormous

amounts of weapons and and money and intelligence to fight that war and think about how much you've heard or seen about the victims of yemen how many yemenis have you heard from talking about their relatives who have been lost in in in battle or how many uh people who we bombed in wedding parties and the like have been lost and well and so i think what this can happen is it can create an imbalance in our perception the imbalance isn't that the war in ukraine really isn't horrible it is but that there's really nothing extraordinary about what's taking place in that war all wars including the ones we start the ones that were waging the ones that were supporting have the same

kinds of atrocities and the question ultimately becomes does the united states really have benevolent motives in trying to defend ukraine instead of sacrifice it and secondly does the united states have the ability to foster a positive outcome on the other side of the world involving extremely complex cultures and histories and two countries of very intertwined geostrategic interests that even if we did have the right motives would we really have the ability by flooding this country with weapons and all the other things we typically do in wars to foster a positive outcome and i think that's why the rest of the world has a lot of

doubts okay thank you lin so glenn went a little bit longer so antonio i want to give you a couple of minutes to respond to that and then i want to ask you both a question okay i think i've welcomed the wrong thing i didn't realize we're debating yemen instead of ukraine glenn um or indian foreign policy instead of our own um one thing i'd say is one thing you said is just completely wrong it's not the case that eastern ukraine is pro-russian if so how do you explain mariopol a city completely destroyed that fought to the last man with civilians literally hauling up in a steel plane how do you explain all the successes in the eastern part of the war

you never actually mentioned the facts of the war you're is what abouting other countries reaction to the war the fact that the eastern front in russia the war is going very poorly for russia how do you explain that fact that if eastern ukraine is actually pro-russian that the russians are doing so poorly there the other thing i would say i don't think it's the fact if you look at most polls and it's funny this poll came out and instantly your friend tucker carlson as well as jd vans have to change their line on ukraine because they realize that it's hard to be a populist if your views aren't very popular right ap did a poll and not just democrats support biden being tougher on russian

republicans do as well right and why is that because you have a small country that's getting crushed by a country that's been the historical sworn enemy of the united states as long as anyone can remember i live out in the middle of nowhere in a red state trump country in the desert outside of reno and people are flying ukrainian flags along with the u.s flags i don't think that's because they read the new york times right um the other so antonio let me ask a question so we recently had uh well previously binding can i just address one last thing there because several points there um you know the other thing i would say is that you know

this in that country don't support it one thing i found one aspect of the story that i found was very interesting was that all of europe has shown up on ukraine's door to help out the ukrainians right usually i'm i'm both eu us citizen usually i read both media it's like the u.s that is like the hard line real politique and then the eu that's in like geopolitical la la land i think in the case of this story it's been reversed and i think the us is taking ukraine and projecting it in its own domestic political narratives like lenas and i think the europeans actually see their own collective history in the ukrainian story because whether it be the spanish

civil war whether it be the germans they all remember what total war actually means what it is to stumble through destroyed streets and be a refugee and a displaced person americans don't have an experience of that they can't really resonate with that fortunately for us to be clear but i think europeans do so if you go to that border area you will see all of europe as far away as spain denmark whatever showing up to actually help the ukraines the last thing i would say is i think one thing that unites i think the old left that you probably put yourself into in with glenn like a bernie leftist and the new right is that both consider two key things one the us

can never act abroad in a legitimate good way everything the u.s does abroad is always a fiasco and then two everything that happens abroad is our fault like literally the entire world's events are downstream of the state department phone call and i just don't i just don't think that's true being in ukraine it doesn't seem to me as if the us is pulling all the strings on the contrary it seems like a very chaotic situation where the ukrainians are trying to improvise as much as they can and so again on the one hand i reject the fact that the u.s can't act abroad well i think it can if you look at things east asia japan korea western europe itself the u.s has created the

conditions for democracy in the past okay but antonio is there a limit to wise us involvement in ukraine so you know we have biden basically said that putin cannot remain in power and then immediately his own press secretary walked that back as a gaff he then had secretary of defense austin say that our objective in ukraine is not just to expel the russians but to weaken russia as a great power so it can never threaten anyone again you then had seth moulton the the uh a democrat of the house armed services committee saying that we were in a proxy war with russia and then cindy hoyer the house majority leader said we are at war with russia do

you think we are at war with russia and is that wise no we're in a proxy war we're in a proxy worth russia what is the vital national interest of the united states that compels us to be in a war admittedly through a proxy with russia that has six thousand nuclear weapons even if i were to grant that we should be trying to out of humanitarian motives expel the russians from ukraine do you believe that we should be trying to destabilize and topple putin let me counter that with the questions i feel like i'm debating two people but like i jumped in my tweet the odds are even worse for the ukrainians so i'll take it but um

i mean i ask you this question in miami not too long ago david um you're the one who said oh we're threatening world war three we're engaging in nuclear brinksmanship by the way things that we did all throughout the cold war right i was raised as an 80s kid here in miami we used to do this thing all the time at what point would you stop at what point do you think it's actually worth rolling the dice at what point between levive and warsaw and your front door would you stop and say actually world war iii nuclear war is worth risking because that's an answer i don't get out of the appeasers at what point do you actually

put your foot down well i mean look what i've said is that i'm willing to arm ukraine under cold war rules i.e the way that we armed the mujahideen in afghanistan so we provided them with stingers but it wasn't a u.s flag on the box and we didn't draw you know it wasn't us flags on the trucks we there were a certain set of rules by which we engaged in to avoid the risk of world war three with the russians do you feel that's not the case now i think it's i know because we have now defined our objectives in a much more expansive way and i'll let glenn speak for himself because i think he would not go as far as me i'm sort of

i'm willing to do a little bit more but um but no i mean look you have the president united states saying that he wants to basically topple putin you've got austin saying that our objectives here go beyond ukraine it's basically to kick russia out of the league of great powers and moreover you've got the state department declaring that we're in a global struggle between autocracy and democracy so we've defined the struggle in manichaean terms and if somehow ukraine were to lose there's like there's a domino theory where dictators are going to take over the whole globe and so i think we've invested ukraine i would give them

some help but i would not allow the we no american president has ever claimed that the united states has a vital national interest in ukraine name of the president has done it before can i so first of all at the start of every war that we fought over the last 60 years the same climate if we were in the united states would prevail as the one that's in this room every time some comment was made that the united states is on the right side we're actually doing the right thing we're fighting on behalf of everybody in the auditorium a pod it's really good it's a good feeling to feel like your country your

government is doing something deeply moral so again i just want to show and maybe you know this doesn't matter because you think that most other countries are primitive or arrogant or immersed in propaganda and we're we're not but here are the top 20 countries by population and the ones in yellow are the ones who refuse to support the u.n resolution expelling russia from the un human rights council and you can see that it's nine out of the ten most populous countries that are on the opposite side of all the cheering that's taking place in this auditorium this is exactly what has repeated itself every time we've gone to war in vietnam in

iraq in afghanistan in libya in syria all americans across the board 80 percent 85 are on board with the war in the beginning because it feels so good to believe your country is going to where to do something positive and then six months later or a year later or five years later every single one of those wars overwhelming majority say it was a huge mistake that at least to me would cause some humility to ask why does that pattern keep repeating itself why am i as american an american always so susceptible to cheering my government's involvement in a war when the rest of the world is telling you that actually you're being propagandized that the motive the united states

government is claiming to have which is defending democracy is not actually their motive as illustrated by i don't know why the rule is we're not allowed to evaluate other things the united states is doing to determine whether those motives are real like what we do in saudi arabia or what we do in yemen it seems like if someone comes to you and claims that they're acting with a certain motive to determine whether that's really the motive you'd want to look at the history of that person and whether their behavior is consistent with that motive that's what the rest of the world is doing and the reason why they find these propagandist claims of the united states so preposterous

because so many of them have been victimized by the united states overthrowing their democratically elected governments not in the distant past but in the recent ones here's the next uh 10 most populous countries 6 out of 10 also deviates from the us position and then as far as what david was saying this was barack obama so it's not what antonio was saying people on the far left my friend tucker carlson evil far right people this is barack obama in 2016 on his way out the door he was confronted in a very lengthy interview by jeffrey goldberg the neoconservative editor-in-chief of the

atlantic who probably did more than anybody else to convince americans to support the war in iraq in 2002-3 by claiming that al-qaeda was in an alliance with sodom hussein and he was demanding to know why obama spent his presidency refusing to arm the ukrainians and refusing to confront moscow and here's what jeffrey goldberg in 2016 quoted obama as saying this is goldberg's uh quote for obama quote obama's theory here is simple ukraine is a core russian interest but not an american one so russia will always be able to maintain escalatory dominance there quote the fact is that ukraine which is a non-nato country is going to be vulnerable to military

domination by russia no matter what we do it's realistic but this is an example of where we have to be very clear about what our core interests are and what we are willing to go to war for and then here is the current cia director william burns who's also not on the far left or part of the far right who in 2008 in a memo to condoleezza rice when the bush administration wanted to expand nato up to russian borders warned this is what he wrote quote ukrainian entry into nato is the brightest of all red lines for the russian elite not just putin in more than two and a half years of conversations with key russian players

from knuckle draggers in the dark recesses of the kremlin to putin's sharpest liberal critics i have yet to find anyone who views ukraine and nato as anything other than a direct challenge to russian interests this has been conventional wisdom in washington up until february 24th when it suddenly became taboo to talk about russia views ukraine as the most vital interest to it because it was twice used by germany to invade russia in the 20th century and virtually destroy it and that ukraine never has been and never will be of vital interest to the united states okay let me let's go to antonio okay give him a chance okay glenn i think that arguments on it better than

the original russian to be honest i mean i don't know why you're sitting here citing six-year-old atlantic pieces about obama are you going to address the reality what we're talking about in that list of nations by the way you included such human rights luminaries as iran and china as having voted against it let me ask you a direct question should russia be sitting on the u.n human rights council a country that routinely incarcerates journalists and has a heinous human rights record i mean the quote if you look at who else is on the human rights council like the united states

like you're always what about it just answer the question it's not what about ism to say you have to look at what the rest of the world is doing in order to understand the moral framework why is it that the united states that still has people in guantanamo for 20 years with no trial that destroyed the country of iraq a country of 25 million people that is the created the worst humanitarian crisis in yemen that is imprisoning journalists like julian assange with no charges for over a decade now has any moral credibility to say we are morally superior i know it feels good to say that but the reality is the united states if you look at what it's actually doing which is going around the world

and has always done this supporting tyranny not supporting democracy propping up despots not fighting them if you want to believe that there's a way to go into ukraine and defend the ukrainians and all of that i believe that that's what you want to do but it would be incredibly naive to refuse to ask ourselves whether that's really the goal of the united states given everything we know about the government and if the goal of the united states is not the benevolent one that you hope they have and that you have but it instead is a different one namely not to defend ukraine and ukrainians but to sacrifice ukraine in pursuit of this broader geopolitical

goal that david mentioned that they're now admitting which is to weaken russia and bring about regime change then you're cheering for a war that is completely different than the war that is actually being fought no i disagree and i think i think you've spent too long in plato's cave of twitter and you don't you don't stare at reality anymore to be quiet no no what i showed you excuse me twitter not what i just showed you came from twitter yeah it came from the six-year-old atlantic piece it's even less relevant just this week the finnish and swedish parliaments voted to join nato why is that your your argument is completely backwards russia's not aggressive

hold on hold on let me finish the thought right right no hold on russia let me respond to the point that you sat there for two minutes staring at russia is not surrounded by nato russia isn't aggressive because it's surrounded by nato it's surrounded by nato because it's aggressive okay and countries like finland and sweden have been living under the russian boot and finland most of all knows it from the winter war and that threat has been there constantly so again what do you know that the finnish and swedish parliaments who are trying to make a decision for their people don't know right if i were a country and i and the and and i had the option to

have the richest and most powerful country with the biggest military tell me that if anyone invades you i'm gonna go into war and fight against you i would say yeah i would love that also that sounds like a really great thing of course every country would love to have a pledge from the world's greatest military that if anyone are you seriously saying that countries would line up to be ukraine what do you know what do you know about united the united states intentions that all of the countries i just showed you not including tyrannies many of which are on the united states side but many democracies who have had their democracy subverted by the united

states who are saying we do not believe the united states is well intentioned that every time the united states involves itself in a war it convinces its own citizens that it's going to do benevolent things but the reality is exactly the opposite what do you know that the entire rest of the world doesn't it's not the entire rest of the world the europeans the europeans who are close to the conflict completely disagree with you the danes the cuddly little danes are seeing left lethal aids ukraine first my own country the spanish are us and europeans are let's make shift gears i want to get another aspect of this topic so

um let's let's start with you antonio what is the outcome that you would like to see here and um you know right now the way that victory is being defined by ukraine and by our state department is that we kick russia out of ukraine maybe even crimea too that's the official policy and maybe we destabilize and topple putin i mean where wh where's the like what do you what's the outcome that you think our objective should be here my ideal outcome is whatever the ukrainians want for themselves which seems to be if you listen to them seems to be a liberal democratic ukraine that wants to join the greater eu

western sphere if you look at the the maidan protest in 2015 this is when everyone kind of revolted against the the pro-russian leader at the time and there were civilian shootings and if you talk to ukrainians i mean there's been 200 years or longer of ukrainian sort of nationalism kind of brewing but the 2014-2015 protests were really a formative period where the ukrainians really said this is it we've got our own country and if you talk to them they're like we've had seven years of democracy we're not giving it up now right and if you look at things like the mass graves discovered abuca when the russians pulled back they look at that and they say if we fail that's the future that

awaits us right so they want the opposite of that apparently 80 to 90 of the population in crimea is russian and wants to be part of russia does that go back to ukraine or does that go to russia it's a good question but the ukrainians under zielinski believe that crimea belongs to them so is he wrong about that doesn't the principle of self-determination mean that those peoples should get to decide which country they go with i mean that's as much a question for crimea as it is catalunya in spain i mean uh you want me to speak for the lens but but the russians have a naval base

at sevastopol that gives them control over the black sea and if you tell them that that what ukrainian victory means here as they get kicked out of that naval base and lose control of the black sea you have threatened them existentially and you know their policy with regard to nuclear weapons is it's allowed if their nation is existentially threatened so we are playing with fire here is that an objective that we are willing to risk a nuclear war for as we did in cuba with nuclear weapons there i don't think we should be so we need to define our objectives here in a more limited way than just whatever the ukrainians say but here's the

reality right again this is one of the things you get into american political discourse everything isn't downstream of american decision this will come down to the fortunes of war on the ground in ukraine which is partially a function of how much it would give them obviously yes and we can put strings on those weapons right 40 billion of weapons are going there and it's just this month's delivery so i mean and it's a good question to ask what happens to those weapons after which i'm sure is a concern do you believe our state department is working for a negotiated peace i don't know the inner workings of the state department but should they be

no i think the worst stops in the ukrainians wanted to stop glad your views there's so many countries all over the world who want the united states to do things that we don't that we don't do for them the yemenis have been begging the united states for six years to stop sending huge amounts of weaponry and intelligence to the the saudis and you can say oh yeah yemen is a totally different country yemen's a different country but it's still the united states government and it is extremely disturbing to me i have to say that we suddenly seem to care so much about the lives of ukrainians and seem to care very little

about the lives of all the countries in which we ourselves are the aggressors and you can say well that's a completely different issue but it's not a completely different issue because what the united what the outcome is of the united states's role in ukraine is determined by the us motive and what you have to do to look at what the us motive is is not pick the rhetoric that makes you feel good we're on the side of liberation that's what george bush said in his 2003 state of the union speech we're going to iraq because we love democracy and we're going to liberate the iraqi people from saddam hussein that's what lyndon johnson said about why we're getting involved in the war in

vietnam we love the south vietnamese democrats and we're going there to protect them from the south vietnamese communists maybe if that had been true those words would have had much different outcomes but that wasn't the reason that was the propagandistic pretense and so to refuse to say i'm going to interrogate the authenticity of what u.s motives are is it just wash your hands of the reality of the war instead of what you hope the war is and and that's given antonio the last word yeah okay right we're good i'm gonna give you the last one we're gonna give antonio the last word since he was a little bit outgunned here uh not outgunned because you did

more than fine on your own but there was a little bit of two on one so we're gonna give interview a lot david what what were you guys talking about somalia apparently or yemen apparently but anyhow so when i was coming back from ukraine and i was crossing back and suddenly i was obviously i wasn't really a refugee but i was in the refugee line along with all the ukrainians leaving and you're at the border it's the middle of nowhere by the way it's not like a big city or anything and you saw a sign in polish that said you're entering poland and the eu flag right and as a new citizen that flag never really meant much to me but and again not that my

time in ukraine was that bad but it did feel precarious and it was a war zone and sirens going off and all that stuff to go back to what seemed like an ordered liberal world seemed magical to me i had the same feeling i went to report on cuba on the internet years ago for wired magazine and when i landed at miami airport here was like man god bless america i'm glad to be back here there's a certain order and and rules to life i think the global liberal order is real and i think those who tend to [ __ ] on it or at least question its value are those that typically tend not to live outside of it for one and undervalue its

importance in the world ladies and gentlemen a debate for the ages well done [Music] it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with it [Music] besties [Music] it's like this like sexual tension but they just need [Music] we need to get these [Music] i'm going on [Music]