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Hey, friends. Quick trigger warning. Today's episode is gonna feature
some discussions around sexual abuse
00:00:04
and, uh, and also, uh, a parent
being on the child sex offender list. So if that's a sensitive topic for
you or something that you don't
00:00:12
wanna hear about, I don't blame you. It's okay to skip today's episode. Uh, while we don't get super
graphic, uh, about anything, it
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is a topic in today's episode. I'm also gonna do my best, uh, if
you wanna just, like, skip those
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parts of the episode, to include
in the chapters the timestamps. There'll be a little TW, a little
trigger warning symbol, uh, at
00:00:30
the beginning of those chapters. And so yeah, so if you wanna jump
around, feel free to do that.
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I understand. People are sensitive to that
kind of thing, and I just wanna make you aware of that.
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The other thing before we get into the
interview is that Kate has been nice enough to invite me to be on a live
stream with her and her co-host, uh,
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Allison, uh, to talk about purity culture. And so next Tuesday, July 7th, at 8:00
PM Eastern, 5:00 PM Pacific, uh, we're
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hopping on Instagram and Substack Live,
and we're gonna talk about purity culture.
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And I know they wanna ask me some
questions about the guy perspective, uh, on growing up inside of purity culture.
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But in general, it's gonna be a good time. Uh, hopefully laugh a little
bit, trauma bond a little bit.
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And so I would love to see you
guys over there, uh, as well. I'm sure I'll be posting
more about it on socials.
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Links to follow, uh, Kate on her
socials and make sure you're up to date when that live stream is
happening, uh, down in the description.
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So with that, let's get
into today's episode. What is good, my ex-homies? It's your boy Jacob Gooden.
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We're back for another week in the
Ex-Homeschoolers Club, and I, I'm pumped today because I've got a
new friend, uh, in the clubhouse.
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Kate is joining us. And so, hi Kate, first of all. Hey, how are you doing? You and I got connected because I saw you
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Mm-hmm. on Threads, and I was like, "I'm
just gonna shoot my shot," basically. And I shot… I commented on your, your
thing, and you and I started DM-ing.
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And, Mm-hmm. you have a very powerful story, and I was
like, "You gotta come on the show and,
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Yeah, I'm so excited. So I'm very excited to
share that with everybody. Uh, before we do that, you
guys are not on the newsletter,
00:02:04
get on the newsletter, okay? There's gonna be a link down below. Um, I send out e- every time an episode
comes out, sometimes in between.
00:02:11
It's just resources, books, things I'm
reading, life updates, that kind of thing.
00:02:16
But it's also how to keep most up to date
with what's going on with the show, okay?
00:02:19
It's not very frequent. I'm not gonna spam your inbox. You're not gonna get emails all the time.
00:02:23
But I highly appreciate
it if you jump on there. Okay, that's the only call to
action I'm gonna do right now.
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Kate, let's get into your story. Tell me Yeah, for sure. your homeschool experience.
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How long were you homeschooled? Was it forever? Siblings? Where did you grow up?
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Like set, let's set the stage a little
bit for like what it was like in Kate's life as a, as a homeschool kid.
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Yeah, so I grew up, uh, most of
my life in North Carolina, um, but we started homeschooling
in, uh, Maryland of all places.
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Um, and where we lived in Maryland,
it was Annapolis, Maryland, and guess what day my first day of school was?
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9/11, okay, It was 9/11. Yeah. Yeah. No, it was the literal 9/11 though, so
like literally there were like military
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jets like flying over our house. Um, like we… Like the reason why
we started school on that day is we,
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we had just gotten all of my like
kindergarten textbooks, and I was like so excited to join, like start school.
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Um, and my mom w- was like, "Oh, like
it's not time yet, it's not time yet." She
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was trying to get things organized, but
then 9/11 hit, and she was like, "I need
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something to like take my mind off this."
Because we lived so close to DC that we
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had like actual people who worked in the
government and the military and all that.
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Like, so many people at our church
were like- part of, like, the Secret Service or the NSA or that sort of
thing, so you couldn't, like, really
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ask people, like, what their job was. Yeah, I've heard 'cause it would be like, "Oh,
I can't talk about that. It's, like, top
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secret." Um, but so we actually knew,
like, people in those en- environments and, but it took me years to realize that
my first day of kindergarten was 9/11.
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And I realized it years later, and my
mom confirmed it because we were doing this homeschool lesson about, like, um,
all the people who help us, like the
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firefighters, the social workers, the, um,
police officers, like, all those people.
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And then my mom turns on the TV, and
she's like, "Like these people over here who are, like, helping, um, like, pull
people out," and that sort of thing.
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And that's when I realized,
like, oh, wait, like, something, like, scary is going on here.
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Um, but it's really the first moment that
I remember really becoming aware that the,
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the world that I grew up in, like this
family values, like, safe culture, that sort of thing, um, what, like, there was
things outside of it, and there was things
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outside of it that were, like, dangerous. And I remember there was so much,
like, Christian nationalism that
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arose after that whole situation, um,
where, like… And of course, like, as a kid, like, I see these terrorists,
like, going into the Twin Towers.
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Um, and I'm like, "Oh, man, like, the
terrorists, they're Muslim, so they much need Jesus." So I was, like,
writing prayer requests to my church
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for Jesus to save the terrorists. And I was also, like,
trying to defend my home.
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So, like, I… Do you remember
that, um, that game Mouse Trap? Yeah, Okay, so there was a bunch of, like…
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it would like, Yeah. you played the game, it would
build the, the mousetrap, and
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then ultimately it would like,
you could knock it down, right? Take your opponents out.
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Yeah. So at the, at the time, like, there
was a lot of commercials, like, on Cartoon Network and that sort of
thing for the Mouse Trap thing, and
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I, like, really wanted Mouse Trap. And I became obsessed with, like,
writing blueprints for, like, little
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Rube Goldberg con- c- contraptions. And that was my plan to, like, take
out the terrorists that were going to,
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like, invade my home, was to do, like,
a Rube Goldberg contraption that would, like, catch them in the little cage.
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Um, so that, planning for like a Red Dawn situation, Yeah, exactly, at, like, five.
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At, yeah, at kindergarten age. Um, that's, wow, that's,
that's a little nuts. It, you know what?
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It's wild that you bring that up
bec- like that you bring up 9/11 Mm-hmm. I was think- I literally was thinking
about it the other day because I did
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do a couple years of public school, so Mm-hmm. and I remember going to school Okay.
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and you and I pr- when we had
talked previously, we, you know, we figured out like we're of,
we're of the same age group.
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We, we Yeah. year, that kind of thing. And so I definitely was, yeah, that, like,
that big culture shock, I think, where
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it was just like, to your point about,
like, the world is bigger than just my house and my friends and that bubble.
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It is, it is a lot bigger. So that is kind of a weird thing. I, I never had thought about that
until you kinda, you kinda said, like,
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was when we realized the world is a Yeah, ' cause I, I realized this
later because at the time, like, the
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most traumatic thing about that whole
incident wasn't that people died, it was that they took, like, a bunch of
cartoons off the air for, like, days.
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And they Right. were cartoons that I really
wanted to watch, yeah. Um, but yeah, I just, I just remember
from that situation, like, just this
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awareness that, like, the world was
bigger and that there was things outside that, like, could, could attack
us because there was such, like, a,
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a safety that we all felt before,
um, about, like, the outside world. So it, it wa- it's really interesting
first day of school for sure.
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Yeah. Yeah. Not probably a normal day, Yeah. to Yeah. But, Yeah. okay, so, how does that then feed into,
I guess, once things settle down to
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some degree, like, your homeschool life
and, you know, like, like you said, your
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mom was kinda like at a little bit of
a loss that day, uh, for, like, how to do it, a lesson and things like that.
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But once you guys kinda found your
groove at your house, what did a normal homeschool day look like?
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Was there a normal homeschool day? I, I would say our normal homeschool
day was just going through, like,
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all, all the main lesson plans. We were doing Calvert School at the time. Later on we did Abeka, which I'm
sure some listeners will remember.
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Yep. that was, that was a big one. Um, but it wa- it was pretty normal. Um, and I, I remember with the Calvert
School in particular, there was,
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like, a bunch of tapes, um, where
they had, like, a bunch of, like, children singing, and I've tried
to find them, like, online to see.
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Um, but it … I mean, we had all
the major things like reading, writing, arithmetic, um, like
all those sorts of things.
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I remember, it might have been either,
either Calvert School or Abeka or both, like, I learned handwriting, um,
by, like, copying down Bible verses.
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Um, so it wa- it was, like, a pretty
normal, um, like, homeschool upbringing. So when I was about, um, six
we moved to North Carolina.
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Um, and a few years after that, um- There
was a period in between where we met with, like, a lot of other homeschoolers.
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There was, like, a home-
homeschoolers in the church that we met with, um, and different groups.
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Um, and then we also joined another
organization called Classical Conversations, which I learned later was
inspired by the prolific writings of Doug
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Wilson, um, which, uh, he's just a very
racist person who yeah, basically the face of Christian nationalism right now.
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It's, it's so interesting to kind
of go back and look at the things from our childhood that are like,
we have maybe fond memories of.
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Like, Yeah. I just had, uh, uh, D- uh,
D.L. Mayfield on and to talk Oh, and yay.
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That conversation. It was great. Yeah. that D.L. does really well is
absolutely destroy things like
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Adventures in Odyssey, which a Yeah. kids, you know, we, we
hold that very dear to our
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Yeah, I love Adventures in Odyssey. And so think, you know, these, you
know, Classical Conversations is
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another one that I think a lot of
homeschool kids, like, they hold Yeah. their heart because it maybe provided
that, you know, community aspect, maybe
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For sure. a standardized teaching thing. But for people who don't know
what Classical Conversations is,
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can you kind of give us a quick
breakdown of like what it looks like Yeah. it is?
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Yeah, so Classical Conversations
is a homeschool co-op. Um, it's kinda based on this
movement in Christian education
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of getting a classical education
with, like, a Christian worldview. Um, so ver- a very common thing
it feels like in homeschooling.
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Okay. Go to this co-op where there's a
bunch of other homeschool kids. Um, and then we'd learn,
like- Um, different subjects.
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Um, so there was three different
cycles, and each year they'd have what they called, like, a cycle.
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Um, so the first one was, like, cycle one,
which was the ancient world to, like, 400
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AD. Um, cycle two, um, was the medieval
to the modern world, and then cycle three
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was more based on, like, American history. Um, so there's a lot of different,
um, subjects that we learned.
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Like, there was some math,
there was some science. We learned a history sentence
every week, which, like, I
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can still recite to this day. Um, we also learned the timeline,
which conveniently, like, began with
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creation, the fall in the Garden, Cain
and Abel, the flood, Tower of Babel, unification of Upper, Lower Egypt.
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Like, it just drilled into my brain,
but it, like, really started things from, like, the creation story.
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So very, very, like,
Christian worldview based. Um, there's al- so, like,
integration of, like, fine arts
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activities and different things. But the, the main thing about Classical
Conversations is there was a lot
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of, like, emphasis on memorization. So at the end of the year, after you
had learned all the things in the
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cycle that you covered, um, you would
have this thing called Memory Masters, which basically was where, like, the
proctor, like, asked you questions, and
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you regurgitated everything that you
had learned throughout the entire year. So it was very, like, based on
memorization, not critical thinking.
00:13:07
But at the same time, like, we thought
that we were smarter than everyone else 'cause we were learning things that, like,
o- other public schoolers didn't learn.
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my mom always kind of
taught us, like, there's a Mm-hmm. And, Yeah, for sure. Regurgitation learning,
00:13:24
Yeah. "And then there's a space for,
like, the critical thinking area Yeah. And so, you know, like, I hated science
as a kid, and so she would be like, "Well,
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you just gotta know it long enough to get Mm-hmm. and then, like, who really cares?
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Like, enough Yeah. Stick that, you know, you're, you're
gonna be fine." But other things, like,
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uh, I, I had much more, like, you know,
acumen towards, like, history and, and Mm-hmm.
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like that. And so, like, for that she was like, "You
probably wanna invest your time into not
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just, like, memorizing and then forgetting
it, but memorizing and actually really
00:13:58
knowing and understanding, having some
thought process around that." And so- I think that's really interesting that you
bring up that classical conversations
00:14:06
is, like, very focused on just, like,
the memorization aspect of it, where I'm Yeah
00:14:12
it seems like, correct me if I'm
wrong, but it seems like it's almost in that kind of more of like a public
school scenario where it's like
00:14:20
we're just gonna kinda keep going. We have a, we have a timeframe we have
to meet, and so, like, you better keep up
00:14:27
Yeah. But also, like, you were, you
were reviewing everything a lot at home, like, during the week.
00:14:32
So you'd, like, review it at home
during the week, and then, like, kind of, kind of be quizzed on
it, like, when you got there.
00:14:38
So you were learning it throughout
the year, and I, I did, like, learn a ton, and I, like, despite all my
mixed feelings about it now, like, I do
00:14:47
have a lot of affection for classical
conversations, and it connected me to, like, some really cool, smart kids.
00:14:54
Um, but, like, also as an adult now,
just taking a step back, it's like, oh, like, there are some… There,
there's some weird things about this.
00:15:02
Like, saying the pledge
allegiance to the Christian flag, like, every Friday morning.
00:15:07
Like, the- there- there's just
some weird, like, Christian nationalism, like, adjac- adjacent
things, um, to it that I recognize.
00:15:15
But one thing I really love that
my mom did, um, and I, I loved going to classical conversations,
and I, I learned so much there.
00:15:25
Like, there was a writing class,
and that's where I learned how to write, and I don't think I'd be the
writer that I am today without that
00:15:31
writing class, 'cause it really broke
down the fundamentals of everything. Um, but my mom was very
invested as a homeschool parent.
00:15:39
She alwa- she always took
us on, like, field trips. Um, she was always making sure,
like, we had the best access
00:15:47
to, like, the information. She took us to the library all the time,
and there was such, like, an emphasis on,
00:15:52
like, that exploratory curiosity learning
that, like, even with all, like… Looking back on homeschooling now,
like, I love that I got that opportunity
00:16:03
to learn how to love how to learn. Yeah. and just have that curiosity, and I
think that's something that my mom
00:16:09
really instilled in us, was to have
that curiosity and ask those questions. I think that's, that's a great
point you bring up because I
00:16:17
Mm-hmm. it, it's what benefits a lot of
homeschool kids later in life, is Yeah. as, like, as life changes and
we grow and we transition and we
00:16:27
Mm-hmm. change, right? It's like to, to learn and love learning Mm-hmm. Yeah. Important, right?
00:16:36
It, it's Yeah. Questions. It's knowing I can go to the
library and, like, how to
00:16:40
Mm-hmm. Research things and, like, all
these different things, right? Yeah. It, it really is kind of this, like,
special thing that I've realized,
00:16:48
Mm-hmm. has that, Yeah. Yeah. ask a question and they're like, "You
know, I'll put it in ChatGPT," and I'm
00:16:53
like, "Well, that's not gonna give you
accurate information," kind of a deal. " That's gonna spit out a bunch of nonsense.
00:16:58
Um, you know, here's maybe a better
way to do it." And they're like, "Oh, I would have never known that this
existed." And it's like, well, yeah, duh.
00:17:06
Like, just go ask a historian, you know? You could, you know you
could do that, right?
00:17:10
Like, that's not Yeah. kind of a thing. Um, let's just ask an expert, Yeah, like I just spent a whole summer
like researching Leonardo da Vinci
00:17:19
'cause that was what my hyper-focus
was on at that point in time, and I learned a lot about researching.
00:17:25
I lo- learned a lot about like as-
asking questions and learning things, and I, I love that about my experience.
00:17:32
You talked about your mom's, like, very
much, like, a desire to, like, instill, like, a l- a love of learning in you guys.
00:17:39
Does your Mm-hmm. come from, like, an education
background, or she just was really
00:17:42
passionate about, like, "I want my
kids to have the best experience possible while we're doing this"?
00:17:50
Yeah, so she didn't come
from an education background. Um, she actually came from social work,
um, but she was just very passionate
00:17:57
about making sure that we, we got
the best education possible, and she really wanted us to have like that,
that Christian foundation in life.
00:18:06
And I mean, I was really lucky. Like she w- she's an educated person. Like she hung out with people who were,
were scientists, who went to like great
00:18:17
schools, like really… I w- I grew up
around a lot of really smart people. Mm-hmm.
00:18:23
was really lucky to have people
who were so invested in their kids' education, so even if they didn't
have like that education degree,
00:18:31
they would still get them like the
resources that they need to learn. I think that's important, too.
00:18:35
That's something Yeah. doesn't always happen in
the, in the homeschool Yeah, people aren't always equipped.
00:18:41
right, Mom and, and sometimes
Dad, depending on, you know, parental involvement type of stuff.
00:18:46
But, you know, uh, Mom and Dad take
on the burden of, like, "We're g- we have to teach everything," but Mom and
00:18:52
Yeah. don't understand X, Y, Z. My parents were not scientists. Yeah. their area of expertise.
00:18:59
So, you know, someone else
would come in and help us Mm-hmm. In the same way, like, my mom is
really, really great at English.
00:19:05
That's what she went to school to
do, and so she can walk you through literature, English literature,
American literature, like, all of these
00:19:12
different things really, really well. And so guess what? All of my friends came over, and we had
book club together, and we would write
00:19:18
Mm-hmm. and she managed that because she
was good at that kind of a thing. And so I think,
00:19:22
Yeah. it's, it's important to put your kids
around those people that, that, you know,
00:19:28
even if it's not them being the teacher,
it's just, like, you know, they're around,
00:19:32
can ask a question, you know, get an
answer, be pointed in the right direction. Like, that is super helpful,
00:19:38
Yeah, and one thing that my mom did do
is when like I got to a point in math where she didn't feel like comfortable
teaching anymore, like she, and th- th-
00:19:50
this might be a little controversial,
but, but she did the Bob Jones tapes. Um, which like Bob Jones University-
There's a lot of things about them.
00:20:00
We won't go into it. But for learning math, they were fine. Um, but it was really funny
because all the people in the math
00:20:09
videos were, like, from the '80s. It was like, th- so they had, like,
the big hair and, like, the, like,
00:20:17
I don't know, the old-fashioned
outfits, like that sort of thing. So it was like, we'd always just laugh at,
like, the, the people that they had on the
00:20:25
screen 'cause the video was, like, so old. But math is timeless, so. Yeah. You know what's funny is I feel like in
our era of homeschooling, we, we, you
00:20:36
know, we're, we're more of a product of
the 2000s than the 2010s kind of a deal.
00:20:41
And so, Yeah. you know, as far as school years go. And I feel like there's a, there's
a point in there where a lot of
00:20:47
the homeschool education, like,
resources, like, got updated. And Yeah. and so, like, I,
00:20:53
No more big hair. thing. Right, it was like the big hair went away. Yeah. My family, we did Math-U-See,
00:21:00
Yeah. Oh, we did Math UC too. Okay, Yeah. Like, Yeah, it was great. in my brain, building with
00:21:07
Yeah. like it, it just fit. And so, but I remember his videos,
like he had hair in all of the videos,
00:21:13
and then all of a sudden one year, He didn't have hair. Because guess what? He had just gone through and that
year before had updated all of
00:21:20
Oh, And so it was definitely that's things funny. Yeah. Anyway, what we Yeah. I feel like that era of like
the curriculums were starting
00:21:29
to get updated a little Mm-hmm. it's obviously a lot easier to update
curriculums faster than maybe back
00:21:34
then, but, you know, we were ro- Yeah. '90s and '80s Yeah. sounds like, uh, have the puppets?
00:21:42
The puppets. Um, I don't remember. Yeah, we had puppets in Bob Jones. Like, the puppets would, like, teach
you the, whatever was going on.
00:21:52
They'd do little skits
and stuff like that. Okay. I don't know that I had puppets.
00:21:57
I mean, my… Y- you know what's
funny is like I feel like there definitely was influences from
stuff like that, and so it's
00:22:05
Mm-hmm. that it happened. Like, you said puppets and my brain
instantly went to like Mr. Rogers,
00:22:10
Yeah. of a puppet show. But I know that's not exactly
what you're talking about.
00:22:15
But, um, yeah, I don't think I
had puppets, so that's, yeah. Definitely. Are we talking like human-looking
puppets or animals or like what?
00:22:24
Yeah, they were like the, the
kind of like, I don't know, like a Kermit the Frog-type puppet.
00:22:30
Like, it… Interesting. And they're teaching what? History? all, all subjects. Like, I remember there was
one, it was like a clam that
00:22:37
like, I think it was spelling. I think the clam taught you
spelling, or something like that.
00:22:42
But Yeah. was like, I remember like my sister
was a little bit younger, so she got like some of the cool puppets.
00:22:49
But my math curriculum, I was like so
mad because I got a lame math curriculum because it was all like airplane themed.
00:22:57
Um, and there was no puppets. And the, the math teacher like
dressed up as a stewardess, and
00:23:04
that's how she taught you math. And I'm like, "I want more, I
want the puppets. I want the
00:23:09
puppets to be teaching me." Yeah. You get used to it and
then, and then you change it
00:23:13
Yeah. is this?" Yeah. Yeah. I wanna quickly go over, like,
maybe a little bit of, like,
00:23:19
the dynamic of your family. Like, how many siblings did you have? Are you-- Are-- Where do you sit
in that sibling range as well?
00:23:25
'Cause, like, I feel like, you
know, I'm the oldest of two, and so, like, I definitely got guinea
pigged a little bit, uh, for
00:23:31
Yeah. my teaching type stuff. But like, yeah. And, and then were you guys all
homeschooled all the way through or
00:23:37
like, or was there some changes in there? Yeah, so I was, I'm the oldest daughter.
00:23:44
Um, I'm the oldest of all three of my
siblings, so there are four of us total. Um, so I have two sisters and
one brother who's the youngest.
00:23:55
Um, and for me and my sister, um,
the one, the one like right below me, we were homeschooled for most of
our, our school career, I would say.
00:24:07
She stopped in fifth grade, um, and I
kept on going, um, into high school. Um, so just before high school
I stopped, and then I went to
00:24:16
public school at that time. Um, and then the two youngest siblings,
they were always in public school.
00:24:23
So we have kind of an interesting mix
where I, I was homeschooled for like most of my career and just did like
the last four years of, like all four
00:24:32
years of high school in public school. And then my sister stopped in
that fifth grade, and then the two
00:24:37
younger siblings were never in it. So they, yeah, they don't know the,
uh, the pain, uh, or maybe even,
00:24:42
Yeah. Or the joy. Like, yeah. No, there are definitely the… Yeah. I used to, had a couple public school
friends, and I remember telling
00:24:53
them, you know, I'd get school done
by, you know, lunchtime or whatever Mm-hmm. And, and they would always be
like, "Really? You're done with
00:25:00
school, like, already?" Or, Yeah, I had that happen, too. take a day off during
the week or, you know.
00:25:06
Or, uh, my family at one point,
we had a ritual of, like, during lunchtime we would also watch
Little House on the Prairie and, you
00:25:12
Oh, I love Little House. you know, untraditional. And so it was always funny
to have them come over.
00:25:18
They'd be like, "So what's new now? What are you guys doing?"
And, you know, at one point it
00:25:22
was like, "We have Disneyland
passes," so, you know, we'd, you That's cool. the week go to Disneyland and
technically do school at Disneyland
00:25:28
even though that wasn't really what was Yeah. Um, a thing. But, Yeah, definitely a lot more flexibility.
00:25:35
yeah. Yeah, for sure. talk, I guess, a little bit about, like,
the transition to public high school.
00:25:40
Was that a big for you as far as,
like, just the dynamics of school? Or like, you know, obviously you
had homeschool community stuff, so
00:25:51
you ne- you weren't necessarily,
like, an isolated, complete Yeah. uh, weirdo in a lot of senses.
00:25:58
But like, you know, was, was it
difficult to transition into a public school setting, or did
you actually, like, thrive there?
00:26:06
Yeah, so I th- I think it was really
interesting, and I always get asked, like, "Was the transition difficult?"
And for me, like, I don't think it…
00:26:15
It's not as difficult as you would think. Um, I feel like for an awkward homeschool
kid, like, I was still, like, an awkward
00:26:24
teenager, but, like, it was a lot easier
than I thought it was going to be. Um, I think there was different
aspects about, like, um, j- just the
00:26:35
peers that I was around were a lot
different, um, that was difficult. So a lot of my friends were actually
Mormon because the Mormon kids often
00:26:44
had, like, the same… I don't know. There's just, like, a certain
wholesomeness that a lot of
00:26:48
homeschool kids seem to have, and
the Mormon kids seemed to have, like, that same wholesomeness.
00:26:54
Um, so I, I really, like, connected
with the Mormon kids, and I'm still friends with them, like, to this
day, which is, which is funny.
00:27:02
Um, eh, but I also… Like, homeschool
was, like, the first time that I met, like, I found out what gay
was 'cause p- to, before, like,
00:27:13
gay was, like, I don't know, like
something bad someone called you. Like, "Oh, you're so gay." Like, that,
that whole era of people saying that.
00:27:22
But it was like I didn't know what
a gay person was until high school, and then suddenly, like, I was in a
writers group and all of my friends
00:27:28
were, like, queer in some way. So you were get- yeah, you
got that exposure to, like,
00:27:33
Yeah. okay, the world is a little bit bigger Yeah, the, it's different. you know, what, you know, you, like you
said, there, there's obviously a big
00:27:41
emphasis on, like, and religion playing
a role in your homeschool environment, and sometimes things just don't get
talked about because they're worldly or
00:27:51
For, on purpose. or, like, you- yeah, or, or like
you were saying, gay was just a bad
00:27:55
word in a lot of senses, you know? And so not really fully understanding
what that is, and then being outside
00:28:00
and actually meeting people who are
gay, and you're like, "Oh, okay. This is not maybe what I was thinking it was,"
00:28:06
Yeah. a lot of ways. the other thing I wanted to talk
to you about is something that,
00:28:11
you know, uh, before people come
on the show, we typically do, like, a pre-show interview and,
00:28:15
Mm-hmm. a great two-hour-long
conversation a few weeks ago. And, and something else we wanted to
touch on was, you know, some of the,
00:28:23
the protections that homeschooling Yeah. Always. And so, um, I know you've got,
like, a unique story in that.
00:28:31
And, and so I, I don't totally know
where the best place to start is, but, like, maybe let's lay out, I guess,
maybe more of your family dynamic
00:28:39
Yeah. you know, who's involved, who the
players are, and then how certain things that happened in your life
impacted your homeschool environment
00:28:47
and maybe why you went to public
school and things like that. Yeah. So I always like to start with
my voice, 'cause I think that's
00:28:53
a huge part of this story. Um, so growing up in a Christian home,
like the daughter of a pastor, there was
00:29:02
a lot of, like, surveillance at all times. Like, I, I would say, like, I was expected
to be, like, a little theologian and
00:29:11
seminary student in a trench coat, um, and
somehow also, also, like, a perfect angel.
00:29:16
Um, so there was a lot of emphasis on,
like… It was very family values era. There was a lot of, like, parenting, like,
books out there that were telling you
00:29:25
how to raise, like, good Christian kids. Um, and a real emphasis on this kind of
Christian authoritarian parenting, which,
00:29:35
like, ironically is not the way that my,
my parents, like, at least when they were
00:29:41
having the conversations about having
kids, it's not how they started out. Um, they really wanted their
kids to, like, ask questions
00:29:48
and that sort of thing. But as they got into having kids,
um, especially with my dad, it
00:29:53
became a lot more about, like, rules. Um, so there was- Very much this
culture of spanking at the time, which
00:30:01
I think a lot of us, um, experienced. And what I learned with spanking
was that I am fundamentally bad.
00:30:10
Um, and I grew up in the PCA church,
so we, um, the Presbyterians, um, they believe in total depravity.
00:30:18
So it was like, "You didn't do a bad
thing, you are bad," and that's how your little child brain interprets it.
00:30:23
And you also learn that your body
isn't your own, um, and that your voice, um, doesn't mean anything.
00:30:33
Um, so your silence is your safety in
that situation, and that's what, that's what you grow up learning, because you
learn that, like, if… Because there
00:30:41
are so many rules, and some of the rules
make sense, and some of the rules don't.
00:30:45
Like, why couldn't we watch Harry Potter? Why can't I watch this show one day
and not watch the show the next day?
00:30:51
Um, so there was always kind of
like this walking on eggshells, am I going to get in trouble?
00:30:57
Um, and then this idea that in order
to love me, um, that involved, like, some aspect of hurt in that situation.
00:31:06
So I, I grew up, like, feeling
my voice was very silenced, um, because I wasn't able to speak
out against those situations.
00:31:14
Um, so then we went into
homeschooling, um, and really enjoyed my homeschooling experience.
00:31:21
But when I was about nine years old,
my dad was arrested for the thing that youth pastors are arrested for.
00:31:28
Um, he was, uh, arrested for, um,
counts of child sexual abuse material. Um, at, at the time it was called, like,
people call it child pornography, um, but
00:31:40
it's child sexual abuse material, or CSAM. Um, and then our whole world fell apart.
00:31:46
Like, this whole world that I've been
told was safe, um, this family values culture created this, like, safety
ar- around it, like this safe bubble,
00:31:57
um, wasn't actually safe at all. Um, and that there was actually
this, like, real threat within it,
00:32:04
um, that broke that sense of safety. So we lost a lot of friends,
um, due to the stigma.
00:32:11
There was a lot of disruption in our
church because at the time, like… It seems like now, like every week you
hear about, like, another youth pastor
00:32:18
who's done the same thing, but at the
time it was, like, a very new thing. Right.
00:32:26
Um, and for a variety of reasons, my…
Well, I'll, I'll back up a little. So my dad was arrested, um, and then
there was a period of time where-
00:32:41
Like, we went off and we were staying
at family and friends' houses, um, because we couldn't be with my dad.
00:32:47
And he was going through the process
of, he was in jail for a few days, and then he got bailed out, and then there
was a period, um, of him just, like,
00:32:57
waiting for the courts to do their thing
so that he could have h- his hearing and
00:33:01
the sentencing and that sort of thing. So there was a period of time when he
was, um, under, like, house arrest at our
00:33:08
house, and then he got moved to, like,
a friend in the church's house, and he lived in their basement for a long time.
00:33:15
Um, and eventually he was
sentenced to five years probation. Um, and we were allowed to live
with him again after that point.
00:33:25
And for a variety of
reasons, um, my mom stayed. And we, we talk a lot about, like,
we… You and I talked in our
00:33:33
conversation, there's so many pressures
that women face in those situations. And it's really, uh, like, people that
talk about this all the time, it's
00:33:44
like, "Oh, why didn't she leave?" Like,
the… Not to date this podcast too much , but at the time, like, the Kendra,
like, Duggar situation is going on.
00:33:53
And that situation is really
reminiscent of my story. And for my mom, like, not, not to speak to
her, but I imagine, like, what was going
00:34:02
on is she had four kids and a newborn. There aren't a ton of stable resources. Um, you find safety with
that, in that environment.
00:34:13
Um, so where… And you also
don't have the benefits of, like, co-parenting with someone because
this person is a sexual offender.
00:34:22
Not to mention, like, the
family court system, like, can often side against women.
00:34:26
Like, so… And then there's also
a bunch of pressures, like, within the church to stay, um, in those
situations, and divorce is a no-no.
00:34:37
Um, so there, there is a ton of factors,
and I can't speak for her decision, but I have, I have empathy for how
hard that decision must have been now.
00:34:46
but one thing… about, like, Yeah. y- her whole world is
being blown up in that Oh, yeah.
00:34:53
Like, you can't make… Yeah. stay-at-home mom. She's, you know, Yeah. plan is, "I'm raising the kids.
00:35:00
I'm homeschooling the kids." Like,
I, you know, you know, "Hubby, hubby is taking care of the bills.
00:35:05
Like, Mm-hmm. that's the Yeah. And that all of a sudden is getting
thrown out the window where it's
00:35:10
like, "Okay, what do I do now? Do I have to go back to work? Do I have to Yeah. this?
00:35:15
Where does the next meal come from?" Like, Yeah, you have an employment gap, like,
the, the, yeah, the institutions and…
00:35:22
iso- also isolating you, ' cause Yeah. unfortunately what happens
sometimes in the church is like, in
00:35:28
Mm-hmm. dad getting thrown out, I'm sure to
some degree, like also your family is starting to kind of probably be
pushed away, uh, instead when, when it
00:35:38
should be hopefully pulled in closer
and taken care of by other people. Um, I don't know.
00:35:44
I Yeah. As someone who hasn't lived that, I,
I just feel like it seems like the most isolating type of environment
00:35:50
Yeah, it's the most isolating type of
environment and, like, and I know for me, and I'm sure, like, my, my family, my mom,
like everyone felt the same way, is it
00:36:02
felt like our whole world was exploding. Like someone had just dropped like
this nuclear bomb in the world
00:36:07
that we had grown up in, and then,
like, it was, it was in pieces. It had just totally shattered, and, like,
you're, you're just trying your best
00:36:17
to, like, keep everyone together, keep
everyone safe, like, in that situation. Um, so yeah, so and then there's just
like all this anxiety about, like, what's
00:36:29
going to happen 'cause there's so much
stigma on the sex offender registry that I don't think you become aware of until
you live on the sex offender registry.
00:36:37
where it can be very isolating. Um, and one thing I learned much later
is in 47 states, um, ho- homeschooling
00:36:46
families can homeschool their kids even
if there's a sex offender in the home. So you have this isolation and stigma
from the church community, um, people
00:36:55
who knew within our homeschool group, and
then you also have, like, the sex offender
00:37:00
registry over here, where, like, friends
that we knew from outside of homeschooling
00:37:04
and church and that sort of thing, like,
their, their parents don't want them over for, like, good reason, right?
00:37:11
Right. It can really isolate kids. Um, and then at the same time,
because we weren't going to, like,
00:37:18
the public school environment, um, we
started experiencing food insecurity. Um, so we didn't have access to
things like free school lunch and
00:37:28
those sorts of resources as well. Um, and we had, like, some initial, um,
social workers come and check on us,
00:37:36
um, but one thing that my dad said was,
"Don't tell them anything that could have them take you a- that could have
them, like, take you away from us."
00:37:45
Um, so it wa- it was a very isolating
experience, and that, I think that's what I wanna share with people because it, it
wasn't… I don't want people to judge
00:37:57
decisions that were and were not made. I want people to look at, okay,
and families who experience these
00:38:02
situations, because they seem to
becoming a lot more common, and we, we need to start talking about them.
00:38:08
Like, what, who, who is
checking up on the kids? Um, so I was in that
homeschool environment for
00:38:15
several, for several years. Um, and during that time, I was told,
like, "If, if you tell people about
00:38:24
our family situation," and this is
from my dad, "If you tell people about our family situation, like, you
might lose all your friends again."
00:38:33
Um, and it really allowed him,
because my- My dad is, um, I wanna be careful of how I say this.
00:38:43
Um, my, my dad is an abusive person. Um, I think that's fair to say,
and it really also gave him the
00:38:51
opportunity to manipulate and control
a lot of situations within the home. Well, you're talking about too, like, the
idea of ruling with fear a little bit too
00:39:03
Mm-hmm. you know, something that you value
as a child is community, is your Yeah.
00:39:08
is going out and having play
dates or going to co-op or whatever those things are.
00:39:13
And if all of a sudden the threat
is, "Well, if you tell anybody the Yeah. are happening, that g- this good
thing in your life goes away."
00:39:20
Well, what are you gonna do? Probably, potentially
put up with the bad thing Yeah, for sure.
00:39:26
you get to keep the good thing. Because if the good thing goes away, then
it's just 100% bad things always, right?
00:39:32
And Yeah. that doesn't sound like any fun. There is no Yeah. at that point. yeah, so I really learned that my silence
was my safety, and that, that's what I
00:39:40
learned in childhood as well is, your
silence is your safety in this situation. Um, so it really allowed my dad to
operate within that space, um, and
00:39:51
commit, like finan- financial abuse,
um, where I think it, I think it was, like, sixth grade onward, we were
working for his landscaping company,
00:40:00
um, and earning money, like spreading
mulch for the landscaping company. Um, and then, like, afterwards if, at
this point he was allowed to be alone
00:40:09
with us, um, he'd have me in the car
and it'd be like, "Hey," like, "can I borrow some money for you to pay
for, for rent, for groceries, for,
00:40:19
um, gifts for your siblings?" So I
learned that that… And then, like, after he said that, um, he'd say, like,
"And don't tell your mom about this."
00:40:29
Um, and I knew that if I told
my mom about it, then, like, my world was going to explode again.
00:40:37
Um, so I learned that that silence was
my safety, and it was also protection not
00:40:42
just for me, but for my siblings as the
oldest daughter and taking on that role.
00:40:46
Um, another big part of it was
because of my dad's status, like, my mom was basically having to act as,
like, a single mom in that situation.
00:40:57
Um, and because of that, there was a lot
of parentification in that situation. Like, my, my siblings literally called me
the second mom, um, like, into college.
00:41:07
Um, and there was also, because,
because we were homeschooled and isolated, um- We were, like, cleaning
the whole house, like, each week.
00:41:18
So, like, Sunday we'd do, like,
the whole family of six's laundry. Sorry, Monday we'd do the
whole family of six's laundry.
00:41:24
Like, we'd clean and vacuum
and dust the living room. Like, we, we'd clean the bathrooms.
00:41:30
And we were doing… The work that
we were doing at the age that we were was not age-appropriate work.
00:41:36
And it's like, um, it's, it's,
like, more, um, it's more work than I do in my home now.
00:41:44
Right. Well, and you brought up Yeah. of the parentification aspect of it, Yeah.
00:41:49
you know, it- like you said, you
come from, it's four siblings. That, I would classify
00:41:54
Mm-hmm. Yeah, bigger, for sure. so, uh, something that I saw
growing up, like I said, I have, I
00:42:03
have one sister, so there's two of Yeah. It was normalized. It's, Yeah. Yeah, we were a small homeschool family.
00:42:10
But the, the big homeschool
families that I saw, especially the ones who had big number, like
00:42:14
Mm-hmm. you know, you see this, and even
you brought up the Duggars earlier. We see this on, like,
00:42:20
Yeah. of, like, the older Yeah. Younger kids, right? And taking on more and
more responsibilities.
00:42:26
And to some degree, I th- I like what
you said about there being kind of like, uh, not a limit, but like a, there, you
know, as you get older, it's mo- it is
00:42:38
there's age-inappropriate
things and age… right, tasks for where your kid is at.
00:42:45
You know, it doesn't Yeah. to have, opinion, a 12-year-old
fully mothering a, you know, a, a
00:42:52
newborn baby, uh, in, in cer- certain
circumstances and things like that. It creates weird confusions
and things like that.
00:42:59
So, um, yeah. As, as someone who has also seen
that firsthand from other people,
00:43:04
and it wasn't until in my life that
I even knew how to, like, vocalize Yeah. weird.
00:43:11
Uh, and, and again, that's
not happening in my home. That's in other people's homes.
00:43:14
But I'm seeing it and going,
"That's, like, not normal." Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:43:18
And I, I have, like… I mean, I, I hold
my parents accountable for everything. I also have compassion because
they were going into this parenting
00:43:28
thing, like, they, they were looking
at these things and learning that these things are just normal.
00:43:34
Um, and that, that was so
normalized within that environment. Same with, like, same with spanking,
like, the per- vacation, the
00:43:41
eldest daughter stuff, like, that
was so normalized at the time. Um, and, and just, like, taking
responsibility within the home.
00:43:49
So, I don't think, like, they didn't
wake up one day and was like, "I'm, I'm gonna, like, parentify my kid."
00:43:57
Right it wasn't malicious. It w- it was, it was survival at the time. Um, So I'm curious then, like, how or
when… Yeah, I guess when do you
00:44:13
start to come out of that and go, and,
and start to find your voice again? Because
00:44:18
Yeah. like, this all really centers around you
having that agency over yourself to s- to
00:44:25
Yeah. foot down and say, "Okay,
this is not normal. This is not good." So, so when does
Kate start to heal from these things
00:44:31
and go, "This was not normal"? I went into high school, um, and
then I graduated high school.
00:44:39
Um, and during that time, I
had experienced, like, a, a sexually abusive relationship.
00:44:47
Um, there was, there was a
lot of, like, sexual coercion. Um, like, my first kiss was not
consensual, um, where they, they
00:44:54
had kissed me, like, when I had
already told them, like, a clear no. Um, so it was a very confusing
time because I also grew up during
00:45:03
a time of purity culture, um,
and during that whole situation. Um, so the way that I learned
purity culture was your purity is
00:45:15
like a balloon, and every time you,
like, hold hands with someone, it was, like, very fundamentalist.
00:45:21
Every time you, like, hold hands
with someone, you, like, hug someone, like, not even kissing, um, you
lose a part of yourself that you
00:45:28
can't get back, um, which is wild. That is a so thing. yeah, it's crazy. I had very similar
lessons in my life too, so
00:45:37
yeah. In, in feeling that. But yeah, yeah, like, my mom's had it… tied to sexual purity is, like, a
00:45:45
Mm-hmm. it's a weird thing to unpack It's a very weird thing,
and not biblical at all.
00:45:49
Um, but my mom, like, sat us down
with these tapes, um, and we'd, like, listen to all the tapes.
00:45:55
Um, and then at the end, uh, it was like,
"Okay," like, "what are you going to save
00:46:00
of yourself for marriage?" And, like,
little overachiever me is like, "Well, I'm
00:46:05
not g- just gonna save sex for marriage. I'm going to save my first kiss, too."
Um, so that, having that first kiss
00:46:13
taken from me from, was, like, a, a
big, a big deal, um, 'cause that's something that I had promised myself.
00:46:19
But I also felt like it was my fault,
like I had put myself in that situation, 'cause I think what purity culture
teaches you is not just, like…
00:46:29
Well, I think the thing that purity
culture teaches you is sex isn't something you do, or, like, intimacy isn't something
you do for, and this is for girls, it's
00:46:39
something that's done to you, um, is
something that I learned as a girl. So there's almost, like, we talk about
women in purity culture all the time,
00:46:48
but I think there's almost, like, this
placing men as, like, these predatory people who have no control, and, like,
you're the, you are responsible for
00:46:57
that, like, male person who doesn't have
control over these things, which is, like,
00:47:01
I can also a terrible thing to say about men. Yeah, I ca- I can totally
speak to this because a-
00:47:06
Yeah, for sure. You are a man. a man. Like, th- these are the
things that I was taught.
00:47:11
And so, you know, I'm, I'm thankful for
certain lessons I was given directly from
00:47:18
my dad, who my dad taught me a little bit
more about consent, and he talked, taught
00:47:22
me about, um, uh, context of like when is Mm-hmm. situation and things like that.
00:47:30
And so that, that's important. But on the flip side of it, getting
taught at church or through books
00:47:38
that are getting given to us, the
guys, the way that we're reading Yeah. we are uncontrollable animals.
00:47:44
We, you know, it, it's that it's normal
in a lot of senses to very much like be attracted to, to a woman and have urges
and, and those types of things, which
00:47:55
to some degree, yeah, it's like that's, Yeah. It's then taken to a point of being told
that that is an uncontrollable thing
00:48:07
inside of you, and there's nothing you can
do to like stop it, and it's like, okay.
00:48:13
And then so it puts all of the on the Mm-hmm. ' cause again, you and I are
also growing up in an area
00:48:18
Yeah. heteronormati- normativity
is like the thing. Um, and so, so told that- It is a
girl's responsibility to make sure
00:48:28
that you don't stumble and fall and
take advantage of her in, in some way. So it takes all of this
responsibility off of the guys.
00:48:35
And so Yeah. Weird kind of Mm-hmm. guys are also being taught, especially
in the homeschool environment,
00:48:41
Mm-hmm. We're being taught, like, Yeah. towards women. And then on, like, the flip side,
we're also being told that, like, we
00:48:48
can't control ourselves around women. Yeah, it's weird. type of thing. Um, and to your point about the,
the pieces of yourself being
00:48:56
given away anytime you hold
hands with somebody, when you Mm-hmm. I still to this day do the awkward
Christian side hug when I hug women.
00:49:04
And, and it's something that, like,
I just, like, I don't, I haven't figured out how to break that yet.
00:49:11
It's just like a second nature to
me of that's just what happens. And then I, afterwards I go, "That
was really weird, and I made that
00:49:17
super awkward unintentionally." Um,
it's more awkward than if I just gave them an actual hug, uh, a lot
00:49:24
Yeah. and so so but it is these things
of like, you were saying, giving away pieces of yourself for every
little thing, kissing, hand-holding.
00:49:34
Actually, when you have sex or you
do any kind of sexual act, it's like these big things that just take
away from your value as a person.
00:49:41
Yeah. even for guys, that culminates in the fact
that when you do have sex with somebody,
00:49:47
afterwards you feel very worthless. You feel there is no value in your life. You've given it away, so you're either
tied directly to that person for the
00:49:55
rest of your life, or you gotta go do
a lot of soul-searching, um, to figure out, you know, what's next after that.
00:50:03
So Yeah a little bit of a guy's
perspective on the, on the Yeah, for sure. And that's real- that's so helpful and,
like, so needed, 'cause we ta- we talk
00:50:11
a lot about the girl's perspective, but
I think the guy's perspective is also important of this whole picture, too.
00:50:16
Right. Right yeah, so what, but I think one thing
that I learned from that situation is,
00:50:22
like, especially when it happens, like,
non-consensually, um, it can really make you feel worthless, and it makes
you blame yourself and not wanna come
00:50:30
forward about anything that went on. Um, and one thing that I always say
is, like, I, when I was learning
00:50:39
about, like, sex and sexuality,
I only learned about purity. I never learned about consent,
and I didn't even learn what
00:50:46
consent was until, like, college. Um, so I knew that there were
some weird things going on,
00:50:53
like, but I didn't realize w-
like, what it was until college. So that's when my world, like, really
started to fall apart, and I started
00:51:00
to feel, like, that worthlessness of,
like, I… Because we're kinda given this promise, right, of, like, if
you do all the right things, if you,
00:51:08
like, save yourself for marriage,
um, and this is very, like, I Kissed Dating Goodbye, like, you will have,
like, this perfect, lovely marriage,
00:51:17
um, and you will have the safety. And for me, who grew up in, like, a rough
home, like, I wanted that safety in my
00:51:23
life, and suddenly I felt like because of
what had happened, like, I wasn't worth
00:51:27
Yeah. and then at the same time, like, in
college, I also discovered, like, my bisexuality, and I had always had,
like, these attractions to women,
00:51:37
like, throughout, like, my childhood
and adolescence and s- sort of thing. But, like, I had never
realized what it was,
00:51:45
Right Um, so, like, I put, I put things
together, and I was like, "Oh," like, "this changes everything." And suddenly,
like, that, we had gone back to church
00:51:57
environments, like, after what my dad
did, but, like, suddenly, like, this, like, any lingering promise of the safety
that I had had in that bubble, it was
00:52:05
like, "Oh, I don't belong here anymore." And at the same time, like, being
part of those environments was very
00:52:12
much, like, especially in my family,
it was very much like you have to have the right beliefs about everything.
00:52:18
Um, and the right beliefs are our beliefs. Um, so that process of individuation,
I think, was when things started really
00:52:26
falling apart, um, and I started receiving
a lot of pushback, where before I'd been kinda like this golden child figure
of, like, doing all the right things
00:52:36
and then experiencing the real world
and getting, getting a lot of pushback for having so much change in my life.
00:52:45
So how does that, like,
manifest itself for you? Like, are you starting to just be
more vocal about the fact where you're
00:52:52
like, "I don't agree with that"? Or is Yeah. you know, like, um, I, I know one
thing in my life that I get pushback
00:53:00
on sometimes from, from people that
I love is, like, I'm, I'm no longer a Christian, and so I don't go to
00:53:05
Mm-hmm. And so, Yeah. there's a lot of people in my
life that don't know that, so they
00:53:10
know me as the version of myself
that was very involved in church. And so anytime I see them, I get asked
the question of, "Have you gotten
00:53:16
plugged into a good church where you're
at?" And I go, "Oh, that's, you know, that's a whole can of worms we can
00:53:22
Yeah. figuring out the wording to
make it less, uh, of a can of worms in that moment, right?
00:53:27
'Cause I'm like, "I don't want
this to blow up in my face," Yeah. But I get sometimes those weird
looks of those people being like,
00:53:34
"Well, if you just gave it another
shot, I'm sure it would be okay," Yeah. kind of a thing.
00:53:38
But w- so what is that thing for
you that's, like, you starting to, I guess, find that voice where you are
getting that pushback from people?
00:53:46
Is it just speaking up about things, or
is it a lifestyle change that's happening?
00:53:49
What, what is going on there? so I, I think it's a few different
things, and I'm gonna touch on a few
00:53:55
different, like, pillars and moments. I think a big part was discovering
my bisexuality, and I had been
00:54:00
trying to be good about, like,
joining Christian groups. Um, but then, like, I started getting
exposed to, like, things like Campus
00:54:06
Crusade and that sort of thing, and it
felt, like, a little weird, um, where I was like, "Wait, I don't, I don't, I
don't think I believe what you believe,
00:54:15
um, about this whole situation." I was also just getting exposed
to different kinds of people.
00:54:20
So when it… So I met my best friend
in college, um, who's a Black man, um, and at the same time, like,
Black Lives Matter was going on.
00:54:31
So we had a lot of really
great, deep conversations, um, which I'm so thankful for.
00:54:38
And suddenly, like, when the Black
Lives Matter entered the conversation and people in my life were saying, "All
lives matter," I'm like, "Yes, but, like,
00:54:49
the house is burning for this person." Um, and it w- so it was a real shift
where it was, it was more like this isn't
00:54:58
just a political movement, this is, like,
whether my best friend lives or dies. Um, so that was a big shift for me.
00:55:04
Another one was I had grown up with a
friend, um, who came out as trans, um, like, around high school, and the HB2
bill was going on in North Carolina.
00:55:17
Um, and I w- I had a lot of conversations
with my parents who were like, "Well, the,
00:55:24
the pedophiles are gonna be going in the
bathroom." And it's like, well, like, it,
00:55:31
the situation's already inside the house. Like, it was just such a contradiction.
00:55:35
But it was like, okay, people
that I actually know are being hurt by these policies that are
happening, and I was getting…
00:55:42
I was really seeing the empathy
that I'd grown up with in my life and really applying it to my life.
00:55:48
Um, and then I think just also, like Yeah, there was just being exposed
to different Christian groups.
00:55:58
Um, I had started trying to go to
church, um, but college, college is busy and you can't always go to it.
00:56:06
But I had a few different experiences
where my dad, like, actually called a church to, like, take me to
their church, and it was, like,
00:56:14
a sister church of a church that
they were going to at the time. And I walked in, and I believe I went
to, like, one of their college ministry
00:56:24
things, and they said, like, "Oh, so
gay people are equivalent to dogs." Um, and it was just, like, a
totally different vibe than
00:56:35
what I had grown up with. And then, like… And, like, you have
to understand, like, Presbyterians,
00:56:42
they're not charismatic at all. They're very grounded. Like, we're the frozen chosen.
00:56:46
Like, w- they're very academic,
like, very kind people. But, like, I walked in one day and,
like, they were like, "Oh, well,
00:56:53
we're having a prophecy update." Um, and I'm like, "A prophecy
update? What does that mean?"
00:56:58
Like, did someone suddenly, like,
update the Book of Revelation? Um, and it was basically saying,
like, oh, the timeline of, like, Jesus
00:57:07
returning is close because the, um,
like, Muslims are, like, of the devil. Like, j- like, the United
Nations is the New World Order.
00:57:19
Like, just all this, like, crazy crap. Um, and after that, I didn't go
to church again 'cause I'm like,
00:57:25
"I just have way too much on my
plate to deal with this right now." you know, a lot changed for
me in, in those early, like,
00:57:30
Yeah. to 22-ish, right? The college Yeah. Basically. Like, like, that time period shifts
so much of who you are, I think,
00:57:41
Yeah. because for the first with all that was going on during that
time for both of us, like gay rights and,
00:57:49
to, yeah, to 2018, there were so much shifts. There's a lot of shifts happening.
00:57:54
There's new presidency, there's, Yeah. you know, Trump was a big one. I, I lived
00:57:59
Yeah. Missouri during BLM, and so Yeah. literally the week I got to college. Like, um, there, there was
some really crazy stuff.
00:58:09
Colin Kaepernick taking a knee, uh, Mm-hmm. Like, all this stuff was taking place.
00:58:14
And so I think because there was that
craziness, there is kind of this call for that young adult person to be like, "Where
do you stand on these things?" Right?
00:58:25
Yeah. as someone who grew up, like, always
being told, like, "Read the Bible. The Bible will tell you what to
00:58:34
Mm-hmm. When you're away from home, when
you're, like, far away, like, that's what you turn to a lot of
times is that, 'cause you're like,
00:58:42
Mm-hmm. don't connect with or, you know, it's, Yeah. it's not the same, right? You, you show up and they're
telling you prophecy night is
00:58:48
happening and you're like, "I don't, Prophecy. um, Yeah. kind of thing. Um, but you're starting to really
figure out who you are as a
00:58:57
Yeah, human being, right? And, right, and so that's, I
think, just gonna happen naturally.
00:59:03
And Yeah. then to, to talking about it. I think there's a lot of… I
don't know if you felt this way.
00:59:09
I was very scared to talk
about anything that I started disagreeing with people on, because
00:59:13
Oh yeah, I, I I was was terrified to tell my parents
I was a Democrat, like… Yeah, when I, when I got to college and
I was, I was very firm in my beliefs.
00:59:19
I was like, "I'm a Republican, I
believe in guns." I was like, you know, Good luck, buddy.
00:59:25
similar to you. Yeah, I was like, didn't realize
the racism that I had in- Yeah.
00:59:30
of me. Like, there was a lot of stuff. I b- I didn't like gay people. Like, I just,
00:59:34
Mm-hmm. of things that I had to unravel
those things slowly, bit by bit, by being introduced to people
that it was like, "Oh, you're gay?
00:59:43
Well, I don't think you're a bad person. You don't come Yeah. as a, as a pedophile.
00:59:47
You don't come across as all the Yeah. I've been Yeah. Same with Black people. It's like, or, or meeting Muslims, right?
00:59:52
And, like, being like, "Okay, I
don't actually think you're bad people." Like, I've been told my
entire life, "You're a terrorist."
00:59:58
You know? It's like those types of things
start to really, like, weigh on you. I think they just make you kind
of be like, "Whoa, what…" Like,
01:00:07
"What have I been a part of, Yeah. do I actually believe
that that's the truth or
01:00:12
No, 100%. And I'm seeing actual experience is
very different than what I'm being
01:00:18
told is the experience, I guess, there, I look at it. you're right, there was so much going
on, and I think there's, like, also
01:00:26
some of the normal college things. Like, you have, you have the preachers
that yell, like, that come to campus.
01:00:33
And yeah, you have, like, the people who,
like, put up the pictures of, um, like
01:00:40
fetuses and, like, that sort of thing,
and it's just like, there, there's some, there's some weird groups out there.
01:00:48
I'm like, "This is not the Christianity
I grew up with." And then when Trump happened, and my dad, like, w- was
for Trump, I was like, "This is not
01:00:57
the Christianity I grew up with."
Like, this is totally different. So that was a huge turning point for
me as well, and just, like, the whole
01:01:05
fake news and just feeling like, oh,
this whole thing that I grew up with that, like, there, there are so many
beautiful values that I still value
01:01:13
that I grew up in with Christianity, and
really wanting to follow those value. In order to follow those values in my own
life, I felt like I had to walk away from
01:01:23
the church that I had grown up with, um,
and that idol of Christian nationalism that has just become so prominent in it.
01:01:32
How does that, I think, like, I'm
gonna say manifest itself for you? Like, and it, this is what I mean by that.
01:01:40
Yeah. I hear a small voice that's,
like, my intuition probably. It's my Yeah. of, like, the, when I see those
things, like, the back of my head,
01:01:50
there is this small voice that tells
me, like, yay or nay, basically. It's Yeah.
01:01:56
with this, Yeah. is the, it sends up the
Spidey senses in a lot of 100%, I, I, for a long time, I felt like
I was taught by my church to ignore
01:02:09
that because that's not of God. That's of Humanness, right? Which is evil, Yeah.
01:02:15
inherently evil. So I, I never listened to that voice. And in college, for whatever
reason, it clicked on finally
01:02:22
that I was like, "Actually, that
voice has got some good things. It's saying some good stuff
01:02:26
Yeah. I like that voice. bit." You know? "I like that voice a little bit." And
even now as, like, gonna be 30 this
01:02:34
year, it's like listening to that
voice that's in my body and telling me, "You need to rest," or, "This is not
01:02:40
Yeah. need to get out of this situation." It tells you a lot of different things.
01:02:43
It's, you know, Yeah. you know, good or bad, but it,
it tells you a lot of stuff.
01:02:48
Is that-- How does-- Do
you have a voice like that? Does it manifest itself for you?
01:02:54
Yeah, and I, I think, I think that's
a really good point because a lot of those college years were, like,
really learning how to trust that
01:03:01
inner voice, and I, I didn't trust
that inner voice for a long time. Um, 'cause there was so much that
was telling me, like, "You're wrong.
01:03:09
That inner voice is wrong. That inner voice is deceitful," like,
"It's trying to lead you the wrong way."
01:03:15
But I, I went, and I went for years kind
of distrusting that inner sense, that inner intuition, um, because I was like,
"Oh, well, I, I must just not be saying
01:03:26
this the right way," or I might s- not
be, like, thinking about this the right way, so someone is smarter than I am.
01:03:33
Um, but then my body started to
fight back in those situations. So I had grown up, um, in
this parentified environment.
01:03:41
Um, after college I moved back q-
um, with my family, and in January 2020 my dad was arrested again.
01:03:49
Um, and throughout that situation
I had kind of been starting to go back to church with them, um, and
trying to really question all the
01:04:02
things that I had been taught. So all the … And really delving
into, like, the theology of, like,
01:04:08
complementarianism, women in the
church, trying to figure out what I actually believed about this whole
God situation, um, that sort of thing.
01:04:15
And, but there was still, like, the
aspect of control of, like, "Oh, we as a family all go to church on
Sundays and you have to come, too."
01:04:22
Um, and there was a little bit of a
choice in there, but there was still that pressure of, like, "You, you
should come and join us." Um, but there
01:04:31
had been so much in my life telling
me, like- You're wrong, everything is normal in this family, even though
everything was very much not normal.
01:04:40
Um, there's nothing to see
here, nothing to question. And then that all broke, like,
when, um, my dad was arrested for
01:04:48
the second time for, like, the
same offense, um, 15 years later. So during that time, it
rocked our world again.
01:04:55
Um, and everything fell apart again. And it happened, they had gone
to Tennessee, um, and he, he was
01:05:04
doing some chat stuff online. Um, and the next morning he went down
to the, like, the hotel room lobby, um,
01:05:14
and was arrested by some FBI agents. So the FBI agents came up to my
mom, um, and were like, "Hey,
01:05:21
like, we arrested your husband." Um, so she came back and somehow,
like, for the, that eight-hour drive
01:05:28
through the mountains from Tennessee,
um, she had the wherewithal to, like, bring us a tray of Frosties.
01:05:34
And that's how she, um, that's how
she, like, presented the news that, like, our dad wasn't coming home.
01:05:41
Um, 'cause it literally felt like
an alien had come and abducted him. Um, and this per- and suddenly, like,
this person that I knew my entire life,
01:05:52
um, like this facade, like, came down. 'Cause I'd always believed,
like, oh, well, like, he was
01:05:59
redeemed in this situation. Like, he, he went through this
tough thing, but he overcame this,
01:06:04
quote-unquote, "addiction," 'cause
that's how it was minimized, was as this pornography addiction, which is, that
is not what it was at all, but it was
01:06:11
minimized by the church in that way. And men get, tend to get, like, this
reconciliation, like, redemption
01:06:18
arc. Um, and it's almost like you can
kinda make yourself feel better about the crippling shame that you feel.
01:06:23
I'm, I, I'm talking about that in general. Um, but, like, meanwhile, like, women
like myself, like, you, you have a sexual
01:06:32
abuse situation, and it's your fault. Um, and you don't have that same
redemption arc, so, like, you are ruined.
01:06:39
Um, so I, so in that situation, I found
myself being the only person in the home
01:06:47
who had, like- e- enough of an income
where I could pay for my parents' rent. So I was put back into that
parentification role again.
01:06:56
Um, so there wa- it was very
much repeating the patterns that happened in childhood.
01:07:03
Um, and then shortly after that, um,
COVID-19 happened and then we were all stuck in this house together.
01:07:11
Um, we figured out, like,
where my dad had been arrested. He was going through the crim- court
system, but COVID had slowed all the
01:07:18
court systems down, um, significantly. So there was a lot of time for
reflection during that time of really
01:07:27
reflecting on what I believe, what
I've been taught my whole life. Um, were these things
actually protecting me?
01:07:34
Um, like, sh- as soon as he got in there,
he started pushing for forgiveness, um,
01:07:40
and reconciliation from, like, for the
first time in my life, 'cause I had always
01:07:45
been taught, like, "Oh, you just need to
forgive," and I knew that if I forgave it would just be swept under the rug.
01:07:51
Um, and I learned so much during
that year about f- forgiveness, how abusers use forgiveness, um,
to sidestep that accountability.
01:08:02
Um, and then also, like, what
that reconciliation, like, actually, actually would mean.
01:08:08
And after about a year, I did see
like, "Oh, well maybe he's being held accountable to these sorts of things."
01:08:16
Um, and so there was this process of
grief, and the process of grief took about five years um, where I… It might
have been, like, a year and a half, but
01:08:28
I got to the point, um, in that situation
where I realized that my dad was still
01:08:35
doing a lot of the patterns of, like,
that emotional abuse and that sort of thing that had replicated in childhood.
01:08:42
Um, so my journey towards healing was
really reconnecting to that inner child part of myself, um, and also reclaiming
that autonomy over my body and my voice,
01:08:56
because my body had experienced all
these different things and had never really dealt with the grief, uh, and
the, of everything that had happened.
01:09:04
Like, I'd had therapy, but, like, there
was still a lot stored in my body. So I… One of the ways that I think
I subconsciously, like, took autonomy
01:09:15
over my own body was by controlling
my weight and what I, like- Um, what I ate, um, how much I exercise, and
in adolescence that manifested as,
01:09:26
like, eating disorder kind of stuff. Um, but as I got older, I came to
the point where, like, suddenly my
01:09:32
body wasn't, like, losing weight
anymore, and it was just stagnant. And I tried everything with a health
coach until finally she said, like, "I
01:09:39
think this might be trauma." Um, and
I was like, "Oh, I, I don't know if it is or not." But shortly after that, I
always joke I met my inner child during
01:09:48
colonoscopy prep, um, 'cause you go
through this, like, harrowing situation, Yeah.
01:09:57
um, but there's a lot of fasting in it. And for the first time, um, my body
was just in survival mode because of
01:10:03
everything that I had gone through. Right. To people like this. Like, there is, like, imagine
there are, like, three states.
01:10:13
So there's the red states, and that's
like, "Ah!" Like, "We're in danger." Right.
01:10:19
And that's like everything's calm. The yellow state is kind of like your
body is hi- high alert, and it's always
01:10:24
waiting for the other shoe to drop. And my body had been in that state
for so long that it was difficult
01:10:30
for it to get out of that state, and
that, that yellow state was keeping it, um, in that hypervigilant state.
01:10:38
So I was starting to manifest
health issues from that. Yeah So going through that situation when
I was doing the colonoscopy stuff
01:10:47
is my body for the first time, like,
in years was in this parasympathetic state, um, where it was just like it
could finally feel safe because it was
01:10:57
in that fasted, like, rested state. And I just remember, like, my inner
child, like, wanting a snack because…
01:11:04
And that's when I realized, oh,
my inner child was food insecure. Um, and I don't, like, even though
we had the empty fridge and a lot
01:11:11
of anxiety about groceries and if
we'd have a roof over our head the next month, 'cause there was a whole
lot of financial- And stability with
01:11:17
being on the sex offender registry. Um, I had never put that together, and
I realized, like, "Oh, I need to nourish
01:11:24
and heal this part of myself." And I just
started asking, like, spending time doing
01:11:30
somatic work, um, spending time just
asking her questions, journaling, like, "Do you want…" Because there had kind
of always been this unwritten expectation
01:11:40
that my dad had of like, "Oh," like,
"you're our retirement plan," afterwards. And it's like, "Do you wanna be this
person's retirement plan?" And she
01:11:50
was like, "Nope, absolutely not. Um, that's way too much responsibility."
Because during that situation, I
01:11:56
realized, like, she was literally
carrying the w- weight of the world onto her shoulders, um, during that time.
01:12:04
So I started doing a lot of
somatic work and a lot of healing. Um, I started getting in touch
with my creativity again.
01:12:11
Um, and I did The Artist's Way,
um, and just really reclaiming this sense of identity for myself.
01:12:18
Um, and that process was filled
with, like, I was doing a lot of different healing work at the time.
01:12:25
I was doing trauma therapy. But I think the biggest thing with,
um, these situations is you grow up
01:12:33
learning that your identity is, like,
not something that you should have. Like, you should only
find your identity in God.
01:12:40
Um, and, like, y- you yourself
are, like, inherently bad, and I think working with that inner child
and doing the somatic stuff is
01:12:51
realizing that I'm inherently good. Um, and that my body is good, and
my body is trying to tell me things.
01:12:59
Um, and just, like, reconstructing
that identity that didn't have to fit anyone else's role of what they wanted
me to be in my life, and it was really
01:13:11
going from that caregiver aspect of
this role I had been placed in as a kid to really embracing the creat- the
creative self that I had been as a child.
01:13:19
Um, and it was, it was so freeing, and
I remember just, like, writing down, like, all the things that, like, my,
like, little me loved to do, and some
01:13:30
of them was art, some of it was writing,
some of it was riding scooters, and just choosing a few things to bring
that playfulness back into my life.
01:13:37
Um, and just also going through all the
emotions of grief, 'cause I think it took
01:13:43
me five years to get to the point where I
finally felt like I could let go of my dad
01:13:50
and go through that grief of estrangement. Um, and I, I think so many kids who
grew up in the era that we did, um,
01:13:58
are experiencing this now, and it's
not like we want to get estranged from our parents, but it's really
about protecting your joy and peace.
01:14:07
Um, and that joy and peace is really how
I've always experienced God, I think. So I always I talk about the story of
when I felt like I experienced what I
01:14:19
perceived to be God for the first time,
and it was at church camp, and it wasn't
01:14:24
in, like, it wasn't in a church pew. Um, it was actually, like, swimming around
with my friend who came out in trans,
01:14:33
as trans later in life, and just feeling
this profound sense of joy and peace chasing the fish underneath the lake.
01:14:41
Um, and as I got older,
I realized that this Right um, something to have boundaries
around, um, and I need to protect
01:14:55
it from this person who seems
to just bring chaos to my life. Um, so going through the steps of
grief, like, people always think of
01:15:04
grief as sadness, um, but it's going
through all these different emotions. It's going through that loss
of that, um, like, the external
01:15:11
hope that they'll change. It's going through the fear that
you'll never see them again.
01:15:15
It's going through the anger. Um, like, there was just a part where,
like, I was just so overwhelmed by
01:15:21
everything, I just broke down in my
kitchen and threw a spaghetti squash on the floor and stomped on it and
had a little food fight in my kitchen.
01:15:27
But it was just like, this 20 years
of suppressed range 'cause, rage 'cause, like, I could never be angry.
01:15:35
Um, and going through all those emotions
that were trapped in my body, um, and experiencing them somatically was really
what allowed me to work through that
01:15:43
grief, um, and come to the point of
healing when I could, um, let my dad go. Um, and that experience of letting my dad
go, I went to this lake, like close to
01:15:57
my house, um, it's about 15 minutes away,
and I just sat and I did some journaling,
01:16:02
and I did a little somatic work. Um, and I wrote, like, this I Am poem. Um, and the I Am poem, if you've
never done it before, it's basically
01:16:14
saying all the things that you are. Like, I am the little girl who
loved to play in the woods.
01:16:19
I'm the girl who loved
to play Polly Pockets. Like, all, all the…
Like, I, I am creative.
01:16:24
I am empathetic. Um, all the things that I was, all the
values that I held in my life, um, were
01:16:31
the things that I wrote down in that
I Am poem and that letter to my dad. And basically, I'm not going to be
this role that you want me to be.
01:16:40
This is, I'm embracing all of who I am. I'm not just, I'm not just a golden
child, and I'm not just a scapegoat.
01:16:46
I'm not just this
parentified eldest daughter. I'm all of these things. And reclaiming that identity for myself
and seeing that identity as inherently
01:16:56
good, um, and something that I was
made to embrace even though it was suppressed, um, by the things in my life.
01:17:04
And after that, I think the hardest
thing about that kind of grief or estrangement is that there's not really-
Like, when there's grief from a death,
01:17:14
there's like, um, kind of a ritual. Like, there, there's rituals,
there's a funeral, there's
01:17:20
all these sorts of things. But estrangement can feel like
purposely, like, cutting off your arm,
01:17:27
Right. ' cause it's, it can be so painful. Um, but like you're doing it to
protect the rest of the joy and the
01:17:36
peace that you have in your life. Um, and one thing that I realized in
that situation, um, was that I needed
01:17:42
some sort of ritual to like mark the
end of this relationship that I had had. So I wrote down that, um, song from
The Fox and the Hound, um, like
01:17:54
the goodbye f- now forever song. Um, and I wrote that down and I folded
it up into a little boat, um, and
01:18:03
I went to this point in the lake,
and I just listened to that song over and over again and just cried.
01:18:09
And I put the little boat in the lake,
and it was going towards the sunset. And then as it was going towards the
sunset, like, this fish jumped up.
01:18:20
Um, and the thing about my dad and
what I'd b- really been struggling with is the dad that I knew as a kid
was totally different than the na-
01:18:29
dad that I knew, like, at that time. Um, like the dad that I knew as a
kid was funny, like, he was silly.
01:18:36
He'd alwa- always had a great story,
but the person he had turned into was just like this, this angry person, this
person who commits these terrible crimes.
01:18:48
Like, th- they were … And there were
still aspects of that person in there, but he had, he had totally changed.
01:18:56
Um, and I felt like with that fish
jumping, like it was almost like the spirit of the dad that I knew saying like,
"It's okay to let go now." Um, and I just
01:19:08
remember like this red-tailed hawk just
like going across the horizon and kinda leading my eyes to like that new horizon.
01:19:16
And when I looked back, like
the sun s- the sun had set and the little boat was gone.
01:19:21
Um, and that's when I really felt
like I embraced my new identity as a person, um, where I was able
to let those things go and really
01:19:31
embrace who I was and my identity. There's a couple things that
really resonated with me
01:19:36
Mm-hmm. One, going back to the nervous Yeah. a lot of us who grew up inside of
religion, and whether you're still in
01:19:48
it and whether you're not, like, there
is sometimes this level of that yellow just gets kicked on and you get stuck in
01:19:54
Mm-hmm. that just, like, Yeah. of needing to be in protection. And now something I learned a couple
years ago of, like, I had some of that.
01:20:03
And so to your Yeah doing that work to finally put yourself
and your body at this, like, rest level,
01:20:09
Yeah. All of a sudden it's like it can
be overwhelming because you're like, "Okay," like, "I'm safe," and
like, "This is the first time I've
01:20:15
felt safe in a long time," right? And so then Yeah. for me it manifested itself
in, like, a lot of tears.
01:20:21
Um, Mm-hmm. Like crying's so important. Y- yeah, exactly. It is very important, and now
I cry at, like, dumb stuff.
01:20:29
Um, like, yeah. We literally watched a movie
the other night and I'm just, Aw. my eyes out, you know?
01:20:34
And I'm like, I could cry to Elio, like I
cried at Project Hail Mary. Like I, I cry all the time now,
but I've been told that like
01:20:41
crying was such a weakness, like Yeah. yeah. so I think it's, it's, to your point of,
like, it's healing that piece of yourself
01:20:49
and letting, allowing yourself to say, Mm-hmm. and it's okay that I do
this, and it's not weakness.
01:20:53
It's a part of who I am." I love,
too, what you said about writing down and finding the things that are
01:20:59
Yeah. Yeah. are, right? And so I am the kid that loved to do this. I am the person that loves to be creative.
01:21:05
I love music. I love whatever those things are, right? And putting that Yeah. and really solidifying that identity.
01:21:12
The other thing that I think is
beautiful about what you're s- talking about is setting that boundary
and that safety zone for yourself.
01:21:20
And Yeah. it's estrangement from your dad. For everybody it's not those things. But it is, like, there is something
valuable about recognizing where
01:21:30
your lines are and then being able to Mm-hmm. " This is, this is me, and
don't come across these lines.
01:21:37
And if you do," like, "I, I hold you
in a different place at that point." You know?
01:21:41
And so- Yeah. It is, it is a very thing
to do, especially, we keep Yeah. That was not something that is afforded
a lot of times to you of, like, your
01:21:53
personal space doesn't matter because
it's, it's all about the mission of God. Yeah, if you have your own personal
space, you must be hiding something.
01:22:01
Right. And so there, there But it, but as you
read my interpretation of the Bible,
01:22:07
and, you know, it's, it's funny because,
like, I'm agnostic now, but yet I still,
01:22:11
Mm-hmm. reading the Bible and
reading books about the Bible Yeah, it's important.
01:22:16
Like, "That's part of what I grew up
with." Um, and so, but one of the things that I think is, that I've come more
recently to, to really love about the
01:22:24
stories of the Bible is how When I read
the story of Jesus, I read about Jesus loving people for who they are and
01:22:32
Yeah. stock in the person of who they are. And yes, there are times he calls
them to change and, and follow him
01:22:38
and, and do these things, but he
loved all of these people for their individual traits, character, the,
their skills, all those types of things.
01:22:48
And so, and so when we
become a homogenized group Mm-hmm. no o- interests outside of just Jesus,
it's really boring, and that's not
01:22:57
Yeah And that's also, to me, not a
very good representation of what the church should actually be.
01:23:03
And so when you Yeah. those very indivl- individualized
people who have special interests,
01:23:09
who have skills and talents and are
different in any way, shape, or form, Mm-hmm.
01:23:16
is such a more beautiful representation
of what humanity is meant to be. Yeah. There is something, and it's an
exercise that I think will change
01:23:23
a lot of people's lives, um, that
was really fundamental for me. So we, we talk about, like, g- going
up through that evangelical culture,
01:23:31
you're told a lot of, like, what to be. Like, there's a very narrow view of,
like, who you are, what values you
01:23:37
should hold, and that sort of thing. And one thing that was transformational
for me as I was starting that process
01:23:44
of individuation was just write down
five values that you hold in your life. Um, and, like, you can look up a list of
them online if you, like, forgot every
01:23:56
value that you ever learned in your
life, 'cause that's a lot of pressure. Um, but, like, one of
my values is empathy.
01:24:04
Another one is creativity. Um, and just being able to write down
what the values were in my life and
01:24:11
whether or not the relationships that
I had, like, contradicted those values or not was really transformational for
me because just having those values
01:24:21
as, like, a baseline, like, really
gave me a platform and a foundation for m- to build my identity off of.
01:24:28
Um, so if any, if anyone's struggling
with, like, forming and differentiating, get, um, finding their identity outside
of what they were grown up with or
01:24:38
if things seem like everything's fall
apart, like, what, what do I believe now? Like, even just writing, like,
five values down to, like, rebuild
01:24:47
around can be really empowering. thing I wanted to bring up too was tapping
into that green zone, that safety zone.
01:24:56
Yeah. like, for me, one of the things
that I have found does that for me is I do breathwork, and I
01:25:02
Mm-hmm. Yoga Nidra, and it's
basically guided meditation, Cool. you essentially lie flat
on your back and you get…
01:25:11
You can do this in bed. It's great. Mm-hmm. about it. yourself in a blanket. No.
01:25:17
great for this. But wrap yourself in a blanket and
you listen as she walks you through.
01:25:21
It's a mix of breathwork and Mm-hmm. and things like that, and if you
don't have a mantra, it's okay.
01:25:27
Usually someone will give it to
you, you know, give you some options of things you can say to yourself.
01:25:31
Um, but what it does is the, the idea
also of Yoga Nidra is that you work your way through your body and you
01:25:38
Yeah. Yeah. aspects of, of your body. So whether it's a certain organ or
your fingertips or your fingernails
01:25:43
or the ends of your hair, like
all these different things. And for me, it took a while.
01:25:49
It's, it's a Yeah, right? Like it's practice come naturally always. So I, you know, give it
a couple rounds, people.
01:25:55
Um, but, but eventually
you start to feel it. And what it does for me is it, it
puts me back in that space of being
01:26:03
able to feel where my body is at and
what is hurting and, and those types Yeah. when I am exhausted, is hurting?
01:26:10
Or, you know, am I drinking Mm-hmm. Do my kidneys hurt? Like the, you know, those types of things.
01:26:15
And so am I getting deep enough breath? Are my lungs aching for more? Those types of
01:26:20
Mm-hmm. know. Have I been working out too heavily? Uh, you know, are my muscles too sore?
01:26:24
Like tho- those types of things, it Mm-hmm. you in touch with your body in those ways.
01:26:28
And Yeah. that's a great, like, in addition
to creating the list, like you said, I think also having that tool
of finding that thing that puts
01:26:36
you in that safe space to kinda Yeah. you is very important. Yeah, and I'm, I love that you brought
that up 'cause that was a huge part of
01:26:44
my healing journey as well, is not just
forming that identity, but really, like,
01:26:48
getting in touch with my body again. 'Cause there, one thing that's really
hard to do when you're in survival mode,
01:26:55
um, is being grounded and in your body. Um, and by that, like, I mean there,
when you're in survival mode, there's
01:27:06
this tendency to disassociate, and
disassociation isn't always like, "Ooh, I'm floating above my body
right now." Like, disassociation
01:27:13
can look different depending on
the situation, the age- Everything. It could look like overeating,
undereating, overworking, overexercising,
01:27:22
like all the overs, right? Um, and I would, I realized I had been
dissociating from my life for a long
01:27:28
time, so a huge part of my process
was coming back into my body and doing very similar to, like, the guided
meditation that you were talking about.
01:27:38
Like, just getting in touch with, like,
the different parts of my body and kinda doing, like, that, um, guided
body meditation kinda thing, where I was
01:27:49
I'd do mantras over, like,
each part of my body. Um, and just kinda ask, like,
and visualize what was going
01:27:58
on in that part of my body. Um, and I realized that there was a
lot of pain that was stored in there.
01:28:04
Um, there was a lot,
there was a lot in there. Um, there w- like, there was
tears, there was, like, a lot
01:28:11
of inner child stuff in there. There was a lot of grief. Mm-hmm. and just, it really got me started.
01:28:17
Now I'm a Reiki practitioner. Um, and I al- I also just
have an interest in, like, um,
01:28:24
traditional Chinese medicine. I'm not a practitioner in that,
but it's really interesting from
01:28:29
the Chinese medicine perspective
of, like, where we hold things in our body and what things mean.
01:28:35
So, like, often, like, i- if your
left shoulder is hurting, it can be, like, a liver-related thing.
01:28:41
If your right shoulder's hurting,
it often relates to grief and things that you're holding.
01:28:46
Things like liver qi stagnation are
often things like, like, if you're, when your, like, left rib hurts can
also often be, like, stuck grief
01:28:54
or anger or that sort of thing. So just having that knowledge, like, of,
like, where different th- parts of the
01:29:03
body hold different things, like, really
helped me pinpoint, like, what I needed
01:29:08
to work through and what I needed to pay
attention to, and just, like, bringing me back down to that body, um, and to
that grounding aspect, and having that
01:29:16
awareness of my body so that I could,
like, have that awareness when it was time to rest and that sort of thing.
01:29:22
One of the things I wanted to bring up
as we kinda come to a close here too is, like, th- these are types, the types
of things that, like, you write about.
01:29:31
And Mm-hmm. this too, uh, Yeah. you know, one of the reasons
we got connected, again, saw
01:29:38
something you posted on social Mm-hmm. " Oh, okay. Kate, vibe with that. Cool. Click." And then it was like… And then
I saw something else and it was like,
01:29:45
"As a homeschooled kid," da, da, da, da. And I was like, "Okay, click.
DM. Let's, let's get connected,"
01:29:51
Yeah. of a thing. Um, but I, I wanna shout out, like,
where people can go follow you and hear
01:29:57
more about, like, what you're writing
about, maybe s- stuff you've got coming up or stuff you have already dropped.
01:30:02
But, like, give people a little
flavor of, like, they wanna follow Kate Johnson, where do we do it?
01:30:07
Where do we, where do Yeah get connected? Yeah. So I have a subsite blog called
Quips and Confessionals, so they
01:30:13
are essays and humor from, uh,
by evangelical pastor's daughter. Um, so they're like, I'll do some satire.
01:30:23
So there's some funny stuff too. Um, Very like I recently did a satire of
like the faith-based activities
01:30:30
from my childhood Bible. Um, I also do like essays about
like things that I'm thinking about
01:30:36
spiritually, purity culture, religious
trauma, um, those sorts of things. So there's a little bit of mix of
both, a little bit of fun, like
01:30:43
a little bit of, um, seriousness. But I always try to bring in the
humor, um, 'cause I think for all the
01:30:49
things that we go-- that we've gone
through, like humor really takes away the power in that, um, and can make
it not only easier to deal with, but
01:30:59
also kinda defang it a little bit. Um, so I try to bring a mix of both. Um, I'm also on Instagram, TikTok,
um, Threads, um, @katejohnsonwrites.
01:31:09
Um, so I post a lot there about
sim-similar topics, um, to what we talked about today as well.
01:31:15
cool. And I'm gonna make sure all
that stuff is linked down below. Yes. go follow, you can do that,
whatever your preferred platform is.
01:31:21
You know, go, go check out what
Kate's doing, 'cause, you know… And Mm-hmm. Ex-homie,
01:31:26
Yeah. Like, that's, that's what
this show's all about, Yeah. One of the other things I wanted to
emphasize before we really go too
01:31:33
Yeah. You, you have gone through
some crazy stuff in your life, Yeah. and some of those things, you know,
unavo- maybe some of them are a little
01:31:43
unavoidable and, and things like that. But one of, one of the, the things that
I think is scary about homeschooling, and
01:31:50
especially, like you said, in 47 states, Yes. Sex criminals can pull their kids out
of school to homeschool them, and there
01:31:59
can be an active CPS investigation,
there can be all kinds of things, and they still are allowed to do it.
01:32:05
And that, to me, feels like common
sense that that shouldn't be the case. Um, and so, um, I know I shout them out
a lot on the show, but the Coalition
01:32:15
for, uh, Responsible Home Education,
they work on creating legislation- To present to, to our representatives,
um, to bring forward as bills that,
01:32:24
that actually, like, can make change. And so, um, I know some big stuff
just happened in Nebraska and
01:32:30
Connecticut, some welfare stuff that
does make it a little bit harder for, um, criminals to pull their
kids out of school or be around them.
01:32:37
It's not a total, like, you know, we
don't accomplish everything all, you know, all at once usually kind of a
deal, but it's a step in the right
01:32:44
direction towards providing more safety
and more ability for kids to, to have access to mandated reporters and things
01:32:52
Yeah. When stuff does happen, um,
there's someone you can go talk to. And so, um, you know, situations
like Kate's can hopefully, down
01:33:01
the line, we can start to alleviate
some of those things from happening. Um, and, you know, who knows?
01:33:07
I'm sure there's other things that
can be done as well and, you know, we gotta advocate for those things, right?
01:33:12
And so Yeah. You coming and, and telling your story
because that's part of that process of,
01:33:18
of making actual change is just actually
stating what it is that happens to us. Yeah, absolutely.
01:33:24
And that, that's why I'm sharing
my story, 'cause I know that there's other kids out there.
01:33:28
Like, like I said, it seems
like a new thing happens every week unfortunately now.
01:33:34
Um, but really my platform is about
making sure that we protect women, children, survivors, um, that they
have the resources, the support that
01:33:46
they need to do what they need to do
in their lives, um, and that we have legislation that actually protects
people, um, checks up on the kids, um,
01:33:56
like things that, um, will actually
help, um, protect kids in the future. Yeah. I mean, that's the biggest one, right?
01:34:05
It's like Yeah. most, most people would agree,
protect the kids, right? It's Yep.
01:34:09
that seems to be a universal
thing, um, aside from the people who wanna hurt the kids.
01:34:13
But that seems to be a universal thing
across the board for most average American people is protect the kids.
01:34:19
And so it really shouldn't be
that hard for us to actually make some, some change, um, in
01:34:23
Yeah, for sure. we operate. So Kate, Mm-hmm. Thank you so much for coming on. I Yeah, thank you.
01:34:29
were so vulnerable and just, like,
you know, you have, obviously, like I said, you, you have,
you've had a, a tough life and,
01:34:36
Mm-hmm. But, like, I, I love that you've
kinda come out the other end of it as a stronger, better person and
someone who, like you said, like,
01:34:45
Mm-hmm. And things like that. And so, um, I look forward to, uh, Yeah. Now having you as a part of,
of my homeschool friend group.
01:34:57
Oh, yay. I love connecting with
other homeschoolers. Thank you so much for having me on.
01:35:01
It's been great. and to the audience, like I
said before, all of the links to follow Kate down below.
01:35:07
Check it out, see what she's doing, and,
uh, you know, all the links for my stuff.
01:35:11
Do all the internet things you know
how to do, like, share, comment. Yeah, all that stuff.
01:35:15
You guys know how to do it already, okay? Mm-hmm. a friend, and, uh, until
we see you next time, peace
01:35:21
All